OzVMX Forum
Marque Remarks => British (BSA, Greeves, Triumph etc) => Topic started by: mainline on May 24, 2009, 06:15:04 pm
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I haven't asked a stupid question for a while so I thought I'd break the drought.
I've been reading and re-reading the latest Classic Dirt Bike article on the two BSA's that Andy Roberton used in last year's British championship.
http://www.classicdirtbike.co.uk/preview10-1.htm
(http://www.classicdirtbike.co.uk/current/issue10-page3.jpg)
Now these two bikes are obviously beautiful pieces of machinery and have that classic MX aesthetic, but are also well and truly beyond my means in terms of cost (Cheney framed, heaps of good bits engine-wise)and the complexity of maintenance for someone like me. Nevertheless they've got me thinking.....
So my question is, what would be a really good choice of bike in this era, based on initial cost/availability and reliability? or am I kidding myself and there is no such bike?
...be gentle...
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Don't give up the idea of building one on a budget, troll about, get some contacts. Ask questions at auctions (like do you have any wheels).
I just picked up Rickman Mk3 chassis for AUD 1600, B44 motor for about a grand. The frame came with nice betor forks and shocks. The guy with the chassis put me on to a set of Rickman wheels for $300 and I had mint set of body work that I got a year ago for $500. So have $3500 in it.
So it doesn't really have to be screamingly expensive.... but if you want to win a national championship....then you need a Cheney. ;D
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i am building 1 on a budget as well
1955 a10 swing arm bsa frame
ossa alloy front end
dirt track seat and mudguard
i could use my ariel 350&burman box or buy something else
i will buy full width bultaco wheels
all to be 1965 leagle
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1955 a10 swing arm bsa frame
Yeah don't discount the stock frames, they are heavy but quite OK for a racer, B44 is good starting point, I picked up decent one with nice motor for 2 grand. Doesn't handle particularly worse than my pre 75 bikes.
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My favourite subject...Budget bikes.
Pre'65 can be as expensive or cheap as you want it to be. The size of your wallet and the boundaries of your imagination being the guiding forces. I know I use the example of my old mate Jonesy a bit much but he's such a contradiction when it comes to his philosophy on building bikes, using his experience is a good starter.
At the top of the pile you could build a shiny and rare ESO unit construction Metisse like Als famous Black Betty using the best parts money can buy and you wouldn't have much change left from 20k, that's if you could find one of the rare engines. His other big buck item is a genuine 1959 WORKS GP Monark 500 he's having built in Sweden that is costing who knows how much.
At the other end of the scale are his Sprite framed projects using $100 eBay frames and components.
While Metisse, Cheney, Mead, Puissant, Wasp, Hindall and other pre 65 legit aftermarket frames are big dollars no matter where you find them, the Frank Hipkin built Sprite frame has slipped through to the keeper with not many people picking up on the fact that they're pre 65 legal. The frames were produced from around 1964 to around 1973 and marketed as Sprite in the UK, American Eagle in the USA, BVM in Belgium and Alron here in Australia. They came with a variety of engines including Triumph,Villiers/Greeves, Maico, Husky, OSSA, Kawasaki 250 and their own Husky copy engine. Most of the engine applications place them in pre'70 or pre 75 but with a bit of thought a pre 65 bike could be created using a Sprite/American Eagle roller like Alans shown below. They're quality items built from Reynolds 531 tubing and many are nickel plated.
Below is Jonesys American Eagle (Sprite) frame as bought on eBay for $300 odd.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/aeagle.jpg)
Engines: As you can see, the Sprite frame has a rather large engine cradle that will accept a number of unit construction motors. The most logical as they actually used the motor in production is the Villiers engine. Engines from Greeves and AJS Stormers come up on eBay for around $1000 for a runner fairly often. If you want to stick to a 2 stroke, an early 360 Husky engine might be fun or, you can do what I'm planning and use a Maico 250 square barrel engine fitted with earlier alloy oval barrels.I was planning to use a 360 engine but I've been told the 360 oval didn't come out until 1965...damn it!
The Sprite frame will easily take a unit 500 Triumph T100 motor or BSA B44 engines or, if a tight budget is guiding your build plans, what about a BSA B44 350 engine? I'm not so certain that bigger unit twins like 650 Truimph or BSA A65 will fit the Sprite but a tape measure will answer that question when you're ready.
Forks/Wheels It's desirable to try and get a roller like above but if you can only find a frame, there are plenty of suspension choices. The bikes come with quality Ceriani copy REH forks and similar units can be often found for $100 or less. Betor or ridgey didge Ceriani forks are also easy to find for varying prices, the Betors being the cheaper and easier to find alternative as they came on a large number of makes and models for a number of years. CZ forks are also legal and are very good but are becoming more expensive in recent time. CZ magnesium hubs are also desirable but once again, they're becoming more expensive as supply thins out. REH conical hubs come up fairly regularly as do the almost identical Rickman 5 1/2" hubs from Rickman Zundapps or Rickman Montys. I've built up a stash of these hubs hubs and usually pay around $50 each on eBay.
As is the rule when building any special, get to know the class rules you're building for and study intently what can and can't be used. Taste is important so try and keep the bike looking pre 65. The standard Sprite tank and seat combo look the part but usable fibreglass tanks are getting harder to find. Aftermarket alloy tanks from Wassel, Lyta/HiPoint and other manufacturers often come up but the prices have spiralled in recent times into the 500 buck range for some dent free items.
The Sprite is only one of the cheap entry level pre 65 options. There are more like the Bultaco M11 Metisse and stock frames Brit machinery that we can look into if anyone wants to go further into this subject. Like I've writen on another thread, the pre 65 class has been avoided by many who are interested because of the percieved high costs but with a bit of lateral thinking a low budget but reasonably competitive machine can be built.
bELOW, THE 100 buck American Eagle Kawasaki frame that'll be the basis for my pre 65 Sprite Maico.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/american%20eagle%20250%20firko.jpg)
There's a good example of a pre 65 Sprite Villiers in issue 36 of VMX, page 32/33.
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but if you want to win a national championship....then you need a Cheney.
I'd also need someone else to ride it :)
thanks for the info guys, as Firko mentioned I'd thought this stuff was beyond my means but maybe not. I'm thinking a fair bit more research is going to be necessary so any literature recommendations would be welcome.
I was talking to Rusty from the HSB Institute for Speed and Spark Plug Development this arvo and he also mentioned the early Huskies. I had it in mind that the British 4 strokes were my only option. Not that this is a bad thing, but in terms of simplicity the two stroke is more within my capabilities.
I'll have to re-read some of the replies and digest, so there'll be more questions to come.
In the meantime, maybe Firko could explain what that deformed Trappist monk is doing on his patio.
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the pre 65 class has been avoided by many who are interested because of the perceived high costs but with a bit of lateral thinking a low budget but reasonably competitive machine can be built.
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I mean to hell with pre 65, build a pre 70 that will still run with the pre 75 bikes and you get more seat time.
Rather than wringing your hands over whether the 64 clanker had chrome guards or not. B44 will run with anything up to 1975, John Banks still had the legs in GPs up until the RH came along.
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I mean to hell with pre 65, build a pre 70 that will still run with the pre 75 bikes and you get more seat time
MarcThe whole point of the exercise is that the pre 70 class is in compartivly good order with any number of available bikes from a DT1 right through the spectrum to a B44 still available and competing in strong fields. At the same time the pre 65 class is stagnant because many folks think its beyond their knowledge or financial situation. I'm trying to show that you don't need a bottomless money pit or be an anal retentive to enjoy the class. Nearly every time the pre 65 class is mentioned it's about high zoot Metisse or Cheney bling which the average bloke finds out of his financial reach. I'm attempting to show that you can build a comparitively cheap and competitive pre 65 bike.
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Personally I like Firko's inventiveness around the Sprite frame and it sounds like Mainline is heading towards a two stroke, but the humble BSA B33 complete with iron engine would make an excellent basis for a cheapy. OK, so the frames are getting a little more difficult to come by as more and more people convert them and the B31 version for DBD Gold Star replicas (never in the history of motorycling have so many wanted a bike that so few could actually afford at the time), but a regular B series frame with decent forks and an iron-topped B33 engine, (rebuilt with Gold Star cams) could form the basis for a cheap, fun bike, perhaps more representative of what the average scrambler was riding back then.
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I'm trying to show that you don't need a bottomless money pit or be an anal retentive to enjoy the class. Nearly every time the pre 65 class is mentioned it's about high zoot Metisse or Cheney bling which the average bloke finds out of his financial reach. I'm attempting to show that you can build a comparitively cheap and competitive pre 65 bike.
Fair enough Mark, I guess my point was that the pre 65 will die out if it is not affordable, people will just find another class. Funny though price points can be strange things, 50/60s road racing has taken off over the last few years on the back of having mega dollar sponsored Manx reps on the line and some of the best riders going. All you need is a lazy 60 grand, which a lot of people have in VMX bikes.
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I'm trying to show that you don't need a bottomless money pit or be an anal retentive to enjoy the class. Nearly every time the pre 65 class is mentioned it's about high zoot Metisse or Cheney bling which the average bloke finds out of his financial reach. I'm attempting to show that you can build a comparitively cheap and competitive pre 65 bike.
Fair enough Mark, I guess my point was that the pre 65 will die out if it is not affordable, people will just find another class. Funny though price points can be strange things, 50/60s road racing has taken off over the last few years on the back of having mega dollar sponsored Manx reps on the line and some of the best riders going. All you need is a lazy 60 grand, which a lot of people have in VMX bikes.
Marc
In my opinion you make it as affordable as you like and as the budget stretches. I wish I knew lots of people in VMX with a lazy 60k ;) ;D. We might top 25k if we sold all our bikes.
Preserving pre 65 era to keep it racing and on the dirt is what the main focus should be about. 8)
Pre 75 will one day also come under threat as our era of VMXer's become older,like the pre65 riders.
Its inevitable and sad that pre 75 will eventually head down the same road. :'(
I see it happening with the clubs that have a wider range off class's available.
man is his own worst enemy. :-X
cheers
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I agree pre 75 is heading the same way, the value of the bikes increases and the riders get older and they become talking points in sheds stuffed full of toys. Same way as when you were a boy there were always neighbors with sheds stuffed full of British race bikes and old Japanese factory bikes (helps when your boy hood neighbor is Rod Coleman) ;)
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Hi
I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this but the picture of the fantastic Cheney BSA pair got me reading again , This is from MotorCycle, UK , Feb 1966, press release of Cheneys new bike .
I can't find any photos of B44 Cheneys before this
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Hi,
The question is, if this is his new bike in Feb 1966, why does the photo of the "Pre65" Cheney look so different, if Cheney had built that fantastic looking bike in 1964, why did they "go backwards" in 1966.
Can anyone find a Magazine article to support the "Pre65" Cheney BSA unit single, we can read about the exploits of Cheneys factory rider on the BSA Goldstars even up to feb 1966 .
Over to you Mark.
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Thanks for the articles,but I can't read it -you may have to put them onto photobucket or flickr.
Looking forward to a good read,as the only good bit of info I have is from Ray Ryan's book 30years of dirtbikes.oh and what I'm told on here ;) ;D
cheers
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Hi ,
I,m new to this techno stuff, but if you email me I'll send the articles over , big size , so you can post the right size
thanks
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Michael.....You're trying to be controversial again. ::) I'll throw one at you.......Show me a Metisse Mk3a frame made before 1965?
The reason many people are frightened of pre 65 is blokes like you and Peter Lawson in WA and your ridiculous pedantic attitude towards the class. Rather than trying to find reasons to knock Cheneys and other bikes out of pre 65, why not take my lead and look for ways of getting more people involved. This weird fetish of yours is getting so f*^king tiring Michael. I wish you could see the damage you're doing to what should be a great class but your single minded, blinkered and almost laughingly pedantic attitude has you to thinking you're helping the cause. FFS Stop it!!!!! >:(
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Hey Firko - you're getting pissed as the Yanks say !
I am going out on a limb here as I am in a realm I know NOTHING about but let me say this.
It took me ages to even pull my finger out to get back to racing after all these years. The last thing this sport needs are pedants and pricks stuffing it up for yet another era.
From what I have seen of Firko's posts he is trying to ENCOURAGE people so if I read between the lines and from what Walter is saying there are a couple of tossers out there acting like brown snakes in the woodpile trying to fork up everyone else's lives to suit themselves?
Guys, if penis size is a problem for pities sake go get an operation and not turn people off yet another era because it sounds all too hard and more power to you Mark for trying to show it CAN BE DONE ! Remember you need more than two bikes on the line to have a proper race unless it's just a parade!
OK - off the box and back to work
Dave Mac ;)
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Thanks Dave but I'm not pissed off in a frothing at the mouth, throwing things against the wall sense but rather showing my frustrations at Michael's continuance of his B44 and Cheney bigotry. This stuff has gone on for way too long. Michael's actually quite a nice bloke but his preoccupation with finding fault in others bikes is becoming exceedingly tedious. At a period in our sports history when we should be finding new ways to attract new blood and different bikes to the class Michaels incessant bleatings about the evil B44 and twin down tube Cheneys is embarrassing to others that take the class seriously. He and others like him are only adding to the general perception that the pre 65 is largely frequented by whinging old anal retentives.
Rather than wasting his and everyone elses time finding ways to exclude bikes from the class, I'd suggest Michaels time would be better spent calling on authorities to join the rest of the classic motocross world and open the class to B44s and twin tube Cheneys therby helping to prolong the life of a class that's bordering on extintion.
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Hi Mark,
Once again you have missed the BLEEDING OBVIOUS , (Yes upper case) IT IS CALLED PRE65 ,its not called the" ride anything you like class"
The reason why so many people are frightened of Pre65 is blokes like you and your negative attiude towards the class and its historical significance, Rather than trying to find reasons to make every bike you like fit into the class,why not take my lead and encourage people to get involved with historical aspect of the class. This weird fetish of yours is getting so F***ing tiring .
I wish you could see the damage you are doing to what should be a great class, but your single minded, blinkered ,almost laughable attitude has you thinking you are helping the class,you are not
FFS stop it . Stop criticising this class and those who ride in this class
When did you last ride in this class, I you dont agree with Pre 65 dont get invovled .
Did you ever stop to think that "YOU MIGHT BE THE PROBLEM"
You are obviously are a disciple of the mantra "If the guys got a vintage bike in the back of his truck, twenty bucks in his pocket and a good attitude , he gets to race and we will sort the rest out later"
Apology to Dick Mann,
Mark butt out and leave this class alone , go spread your negative, pessimistic ,wet blanket attitude in someone elses paddock.
Michael Bamford
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i agree with mark to the point that you dont have to invest bulk money to set up a bike in the pre 65 or other classes for that matter. find an old 18s ajay or b33 bsa and you can have a lot of fun. the way i got my rt1 was like this- a bloke at work said to me 'you muck about with old bikes, there's an old bike in my uncles' shed at yass if your interested'.so had a look and came back with the first model rt1 for $100! spent $200 on bearings &seals and had fun. I would never had considered buying anything involving more than three figures.
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With respect Michael, you invited my response.....
Over to you Mark.
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Now look who's getting cranky. You're the bloke who keeps raising this tiresome old chestnut, not me. I'm just looking for ways of getting people into the class and you keep raising the boring old B44 scenario that has nothing to do with the thread. The subject is 'Budget Bikes',not "Lets hammer B44s again". You raised the subject, not me.
Stop criticising this class and those who ride in this class
Show me where I've criticised the pre 65 class Michael. I've been pushing, promoting and offering up opportunities to people who've previously avoided the class. Let's look back a little....I offer up the Royal Enfield India as a cheap entry level bike and show a lot of positive reasons for considering them and what to you come back with....that they're a WOFTAM and erroneously suggest they're not the same as the Brit version. Who showed the negativity there old mate? Not me.
I offer up a cheap and easy way of getting into the class with the Sprite alternative and what do you come back with...nothing except criticise me as living in hacksaw and grinder "Firkoland". If you can go back through every post I've ever made on this forum or any of the twenty five years I've been writing about this sport and find even one article where I've been critical of the pre 65 class I'll buy you a carton of Steinlager. Sure I've been critical of the current eligibility rules but have offered up reasons for my criticisms while at the same times respecting the pre 65 class as the sports crown jewel.
When did you last ride in this class, I you dont agree with Pre 65 dont get invovled
When was that a criteria for having an opinion? As you know I haven't raced at open level since 1996 and club level since 1999 due to my weight, age and various injuries. During my vintage racing days I raced almost exclusively in the pre 70 class with three different brand bikes but have built three pre 65 class bikes, including two Metisses and my current Hindall Ducati and assisted various friends in building a number of Metisses and other pre 65 bikes. Now that my weight's declining and my injuries are a tad less niggly I'm currently assembling parts to make a return to racing next year in the pre 65 class.
You are obviously are a disciple of the mantra "If the guys got a vintage bike in the back of his truck, twenty bucks in his pocket and a good attitude , he gets to race and we will sort the rest out later"
As a matter of fact I am. There's a place for everyone in VMX Michael and we need to nurture that rather than scare thenm away with a shitload of reasons they cant race or expect them all to have pukka bikes like you seem to think we should all have.
Mark butt out and leave this class alone , go spread your pessimistic ,wet blanket attitude in someone elses paddock
Come on Michael you've got to be joking. I've been nothing but positive in this current resurgence of forum interest in pre 65. I'll say it again, I'm drumming up business while you pedantic anals scare everyone away. Don't go throwing the pessimistic stone at me bucko! Coming from you thats a hoot. Re read your posts and you'll see what I mean. The beer will still be cold at CD6 where we can continue this discussion but make sure you do your homework first. ;)
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I'll buy you a carton of Steinlager.
Geez Firko you are really getting ugly now, nobody deserves that cruel fate. ;D
Well just quickly leafing through the latest issue of Classic Dirtbike (far too much trials, but what the hell if the poms want to creep around bogs in cloth caps). But seems like Cheney B44s (albeit 500 and 600 3 speed B44s with titanium rods) are cleaning up post 65, so that is probably where they should stay as they can be developed way beyond anything else.
maybe pre 65 should be technology based, limited to Pommy 4 strokes. All pommy bike formula day is popular in the land of Steinlager and is fantastic with great bikes and a few old stars dragged out of their Zimmer frames.
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Hi
Here is a deal for you Mark, you stop inferring that an electric start Indian Enfield is a Pre65 Bike , and discontinue this annoying and futile B44 crusade,(you must accept the Refs decision, or move to Pomgolia) and I'll stop baiting you,
ps: the whispers have started about your frequent use of the "pedantic and anal" phrase
cheers
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Mainline while searching keep your eyes peeled for these:
AJS
Areil
Bultaco
BSA
Cotton
CZ
Enfield
ESO
DOT
DKW
FN
Francis Barnett
Gilera
Greeves
Hedlund
Husqvarna
James
Jawa
LITO
Maico250
Matchless
Moto Parilla
Norman
Norton the best one :-*
Puch
Royal enfield
Sarolea
Sprite
Sun
Tandon
Truimph
Verlocette
Vincent
Japanese all pre 65
Specials non budget
Cheney
Greeves
Kyffin what?
MABSA
Metisse
Puissant
TRIBSA
Wasp
Cochise
If it has lighting system or any glossy fairing-remove ;D
Change tyres and you should be right to ride dirt :P
cheers
Oh and remember-the Nationals are only once a year not all year. 8)
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i know where there is a ex works dot 360
i want to get my hands on one day ;)
shit i would ride pre65 but they are hard to find :D
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You know Michael....the thing that really surprises me is that you took the electric start Enfield pun seriously ;D. Perhaps that little burst of sarcastic humour went over your head and when you reacted so well I couldn't help myself. ;)
As far as B44 goes, whatever you say. I don't want to play this silly game any more. You haven't answered any of my questions and probably won't because the answers expose the non level playing field that exists in the pre 65 regs. You said it yourself, it's pre 65 so lets take out the G85 Matchy and Mk3a Metisse frame and we can all live as one big happy pre 65 family where love and respect for others opinions run rampant. :-*
Now........can we return to a positive outlook and carry on with trying to find low budget entry level bikes for pre 65.
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That old AJS is just the thing. It'd be a piece of piss to switch it over to motocross trim and give it its third life. Even though it's pretty obvious that the Enfield electric start option might get you in trouble with the rule Nazis, the Enfield India is still legal for pre 65. The above list is certainly large but you'd be wrestling rhinos to find most of them, let alone find one on the cheap.
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With the value of our NZ "Pacific Peso" this probably qualifies as a budget bike, and it is undoubtedly pre-65:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Classic-vintage/auction-221087027.htm
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cottons
i bought a road race cotton in late 79.it was a telstar complete with very large tank and full faring all factory stuff.after paying and putting it on the trailer the owner said to me you may as well have my mx bike as well and wheeled out a bike just the same as that one.ther was a very fast cotton rasing in pre 62 road racing and i was just about to buy that on when the owner said you may as well here it run,it went bang in a big way.mad mick mancell from taree buged me till i sold them to him along with a cb72 honda 250 which was the bike on display at the 61 motor show.i think i got a few jap motors a bsa jap road racer and some cash.
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that Cotton looks like a nice bit of gear.........for a 2 banger :D
wonder if Dj and Bill could throw it in thier luggage and bring it over for CD6? 8)
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B44's should not be pre 65 legal full stop. They started making production models in 65 for the 66 model and in 66 for the 67 model. So dont see how and why they can get into pre 65.
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Believe it or not Leith, I think you're right . My whole argument about this situation that my learned advesary seems to be avoiding is why the G85 Matchless and others are allowed in pre 65 when the Matchy was released in 1966. Using the criteria that the G85 is a flow on from the G80 and therefore should be allowed, the B44 is a flow on from the B40 and the same criteria should be used to cover it. It's the same with the single downtube Cheney. I have photographic proof of Jerry Scott riding a single downtube Cheney in 1964* but that same photographic proof was ignored by the MA committee that ruled over Vern Graysons Cheney disqualification. Accepting that they were right and the Cheney wasn't made until 1965 then the Metisse Mk3a frame for unit engines must also be declared illegal as it wasn't produced until 1965. Now, I'm very happy to see the B44 stay in pre 70 if the same level playing field that excluded it and the Cheney is used to caregorise other outstanding bikes that have had a blind eye turned towards them. They're either all in thanks to the flow on rule or they're all out because of their age. We can't have it both ways.
This whole situation is way too complicated to discuss on the forum but I'll be more than willing to raise the whole sordid history and the political agedna that's driven it for the last 10 or so years around the Campfire at CD6. Trust me, if certain people didn't own B44 Beezas and Cheney single downtube framed machines, both items would be allowed in pre 65. That's my last word on it.
*I'll present that piece of documentation to Michael at CD6 only because I can't put my hands on it right now.
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The Cotton is a perfect candidate for pre 65. I have a 1963 Cotton Cobra that had previously been fitted with a B40 BSA engine and later a Yammy DT1. She's a roughy but I've fixed her a bit and have fitted a Triumph T100 engine but I pulled it and fitted a CB77 305 Honda engine. I got distracted by other projects and shoved it into the garden shed for a future interest comeback. Even with the original Villiers Starmaker engine they can be made to hoot with some decent porting, a better pipe and modern electrics.
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(http://www.classicdirtbike.co.uk/current/issue10-page3.jpg)
Nevertheless they've got me thinking.....
yeah me too, this has been a great thread. I loved this article in CBD and have this recurring dream now about alchohol fueled 500cc singles. looks like my Cheney engine is about to get a birthday. ;)
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$12K, which is a fair estimate of the cost to build my Pat French Framed Triumph 650 unit Metisse, is by no meas a budget bike.
The first 4 years of its life saw it fully registered and used as everyday transport with weekends spent off in the dirt heading west with overnight trips staying in remote bush pubs, and what a blast it was.
Last year I plonked it on the start line at Clarence with the Heaven boys, and what an even bigger blast that was.
Next month the bike will, for the first time, be used on the Nepean dirt track.
When Im too old to ride it round a track, back on the road it goes on full registration.
I rekon that $12k was bloody well spent!
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That old AJS is just the thing. It'd be a piece of piss to switch it over to motocross trim and give it its third life. Even though it's pretty obvious that the Enfield electric start option might get you in trouble with the rule Nazis, the Enfield India is still legal for pre 65. The above list is certainly large but you'd be wrestling rhinos to find most of them, let alone find one on the cheap.
its a beauty, the best maggy and the better model gearbox.it has a matcho barrel but who cares!.keep the comp below 9.5to 1[to keep the barrell on] shove some good cams in it and away you go. get rid of the hairpins to.cheers wally.
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In 1964 Jeff Smith won the world championship on a hybrid C15/B40 of around 440cc or a bit more. In November 64 there was a prototype B44GP built based on Jeffs factory hybrid bike. These went into production part way through 1965 and were classed as 66 models. In 65 Jeff won the world championship for a second time on a modifed production B44GP. After securing the 65 world 500cc championship part way though 65, he was told to ride a stock B44GP just like the public for good PR. Production of the GP stoped in 67.
That information is from various BSA books and i also have engine and frame numbers of 99% of all BSA's built. under the 64 and 65 models list there is no B44. B44's are only listed under the 66 and 67 model years.
So in my opinion i feel no B44's should be allowed in PRE 65 and i dont think they should be classed as a follow on model as the engines are totally different and not much at all interchanges between the 350 and 441cc bikes.
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does every component have to be pre65?
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/BSA-Fuel-tank_W0QQitemZ160337345648QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories?hash=item2554d9bc70&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
and the AJS sold for $2888, is that cheap?
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bsa frame, how much are these worth?
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/BSA-A7-A10-FRAME_W0QQitemZ190309236552QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories?hash=item2c4f507f48&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
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probably at least that, they work well with triumph engine.
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So can someone tell me if the Bantam 175 4-sp is pre-65 legit?
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$600 for an A10/A65 bare frame is a lot of money in my eyes but I suppose they're getting a bit scarse. It'd make a great starter for a TRIBSA special as Marc says. At one stage prior to the advent of purpose built frames the TRIBSA was the hot ticket for scrambles stardom.
I reckon the basic TRIBSA shown could be built for around 5k using a bit of savvy eBay and old mates network shopping.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/tribsa%201.jpg)
Assuming you get the frame for $600 and using eBay USA pricing for parts here's how I break it down
*Frame: Top dollar at $600
*forks/triple clamps/front wheel: Bultaco Betor forks and full width hub @ wheel $200
*rear wheel/shocks: I'd use a Rickman Montesa rear wheel $100. Period sympathetic Konis or Girlings can be had for under $50 or see Walter for some decent YSS UNITS. keeping it cheap though, allow $100 for second hand whatever.
*Engine:rather than using a pre unit engine and AMC or BSA box like most, I'd use a cheaper and simpler and mor common T100 unit 500 I've seen complete engines for as little as $400us but allow $1000au.
*tank/seat: Replica Metisse bodywork can be bought for under $500 or for a real cheapo you could use an alloy Husky tank and seat for around $200.
That brings the basic bike in at around 2.5k. Double that for engine freshen up, paint, polish and upholstery, tyres and possible wheel rebuild and you've got a very basic TRIBSA up and on the track for around 5k. Many will do it cheaper, some will spend a lot more but on average you should be able to get a basic low bling TRIBSA on the track. Building a bike like a TRIBSA allows you to use a bit of artistic flair so why be restricted by someone elses idea of what's needed. Why not use a Yamaha MX125 front wheel (thanks for the tip Graeme) which already comes with a mudcatcher rim? Why not an alloy RM Suzuki tank polished up? What about CZ wheels and forks?
As you can see, the component list to build a TRIBSA is almost endless using the above list of eligible bikes and their parts. Below is a shot of Kevlar Herbies TRIBSA bling bike that has been fitted with Metisse bodywork to replicate a Metisse Mk2........like I said, the scope for parts choices is almost endless.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/nepean6.jpg)
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John...I believe all Bantams are legal for pre 65. Below is Ray Atkins lovely and very trickold ex Bill Morris Bantam at CD4. They're cool but sooooo slow, no matter how much nitrous oxide you use. ;D
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/bantamray.jpg)
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Mark,
Yes, I recall riding my mates std 125 3sp Bantam in about 71/72. I tho't it must have been 'coked up' it was sooo slow. Made a 125CZ look fast! (sorry CZ-philes)
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Has anybody had experience with the early honda's like the CL72 & CL77?
I have noticed some have been bought in and parts don't seem to be an issue as the engines were reportedly very similar to the CB's of the time. I have heard a few on You-tube and they sound great rev pretty hard for 4 strokes of the day.
Cheers,
Steve.
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I took into account that the A10 frame had been overhauled and painted.....geting a nice clean ready to go frame can save you a lot of grief.
I have Rickman kit body work for an A10, it is pretty rare and fits straight up to A10. I may be open to offers about $1000.
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firko
charlie edwards bantam was quick and also walsh bantams and there was the bantam built in the bhp workshop in newcastle that sounded like a yz125,thats cause it was inside
cheers
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Yeh, I seem to recall a roadracing series in UK for bantams only, & I think only the 3sp was allowed. No doubt they get em going pretty quick. Didn't Bert Flood also weave magic on the bantam too?
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....then there was the Oz championship winning Victa Bantam at CD5.
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This budget pre '65 thing has spread all the way to the top. I got a phonecall from the head honcho of MA David White this morning telling me that he's also building a low buck pre 65 machine. He picked up a Bultaco M11 Metisse* frame/swingarm at the Bonanza swapmeet and is fitting a BSA C15 engine and CZ forks and wheels. It just goes to show who reads our posts!
I'm really amazed by the number of folks who have recently become interested in getting into pre 65. The class has been stagnant for years for various reasons, the main two being the perception that you need a shitload of money to throw at a bike and the other being that these bikes are big, overweight tanks that handle like aircraft carriers. I think the message is getting accross that neither of those scenarios need be true. We've shown that with a bit of creative thought you can indeed build a comparitively cheap pre 65 bike and by using a Sprite, Cotton or M11 frame, can build a bike that weighs as little as and handles as well as any pre '75 bike.
This is a great thread that's opening new doors of vintage racing fun. Let's see where it goes.
*Here's an M11 Bultaco Metisse. They spasmodically come up on US eBay for less than a grand, for a barn find.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/bully%20m11%203.jpg)(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/bully%20m11%202.jpg)
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....then there was the Oz championship winning Victa Bantam at CD5
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/victa%201.jpg)
Ray Dole is currently rebuilding the old Victa to original race spec. It's the only Aussie built bike to ever win an Aussie title in any dicipline. Ray tells me he has a few different versions of his "works" Victa tucked away.
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i was there that day
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What a wonderful reason to hit the clearance sales with your loved one. 8)
Endless country places to explore while taking a leisurely drive around the wineries,breweries,craft shops all to stimulate the economy, while secretly pursuing the ultimate bike built before 1975 ;) ;D
http://www.rhas.com.au/Content_Common/pg-Clearance-Sale.seo
http://www.elders.com.au/search/?q=clearance+sales&group=all&sa=Go
http://www.farmonline.com.au/.................probabley the best for all farming newspapers and clearance sales
www.TradingPost.com.au/Motorcycles
cheers
oh forgot ,the local rubbish dump and next doors shed ;D
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That brings the basic bike in at around 2.5k. Double that for engine freshen up, paint, polish and upholstery, tyres and possible wheel rebuild and you've got a very basic TRIBSA up and on the track for around 5k.
I think 5K is entirely possible, I picked up Mk3 Rickman with good Betors and shocks for AUD $1600. Couple of grand in a motor and some smart shopping on wheels and body work and even genuine Rickmans don't have to be crazy money. ;D
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This is a great thread, how good am I for starting it? ;D
Marc and Mark, you two read my mind. I was going through my small stash of VMX mag last night looking for this sort of stuff, and found the two Tribsa's in issue no.8. I was going to ask tonight why the Triumph thing hadn't been touted all that much and open the thread to find you two had beaten me to it.
Tonight's really stupid question is, the "unit" reference ie. pre unit or unit. what does that mean? I'm serious, I don't know ::)
Some other questions, after going through my book of 30's 40's 50's British bikes I noticed some had what I would think of as non-conventional shift pedal and rear brake. ie they're on the opposite side to what I'm used to. Are there specific engines or manufacturers (other than Bultaco) where this is the norm?
Firko, you mentioned the early RM tank as an option, do all the major components of the bike have to be pre65 or just the running gear, frame and suspension?
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Mainline, the only true good meaning of a pre 75 "unit" is one of these ;D
cheers
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Hi Paul....Unit construction means that the gearbox and engine crankcase are the one 'unit' as in most modern engines.
Pre unit means that the grarbox is a seperate removable unit from the engine.
The English stuff is all right foot gear change some 1 down 3 up others 1 up, three down.
Major components would be frame, engine,forks and hubs. You'd get away with the RM tank polished up to look period as it's not a major component. The key is for the bike to appear period though. A plastic tank off a YZ wouldn't be kosher. In the end it comes down to looking the period.
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http://cgi.ebay.com.au/BSA-Bantam-1954-D1-Plunger_W0QQitemZ290319433329QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Motorcycles?hash=item439862fe71&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A1|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50
In South Aust :P what do you want to put in it..............................SOLD $1525
cheers
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/classic-bsa_W0QQitemZ190311050951QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Motorcycles?hash=item2c4f6c2ec7&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A1|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A4|294%3A50
keeping the budget bike under the 3k mark..................In NSW
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A Greeves in UK 8)
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Greeves-scambler-motorbike_W0QQitemZ140323657068QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Motorcycles?hash=item20abf1156c&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177
cheers
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Alison...with due respect, as porky as I am, I reckon I could run a lap of a motocross track faster than that old C10 BSA.
It'd want to come in under 3k. The only thing slower would be the Bantam.
The Greeves is a great old period engine swap bike but it'd take a 6-71 supercharger and Bubba Stewart on board to make it competitive.
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Oh ye of little faith. ;) ;D
I'm sure you could put something in it with a bit of go and still come in under 4K.
cheers
ps just givin them a piece of string 8)
To tell the truth I went through the whole list of pre60 bikes on page three of this topic and looked in ebay for them and came up with the above listings in Aust.In other words Sweet F All. :(
Sure was wrestling with Rhinos ;) ;D
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I'm sure you could put something in it with a bit of go and still come in under 4K.
cheers
Yeah I suppose I could put a 750 Triumph engine in it but I'd hate to be riding it with that plunger rear "suspension".
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The Greeves looks nice . See my fathers Greeves many years back http://cid-e94d76226545983d.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/VMX/360Greeves%7C_02.jpg (http://cid-e94d76226545983d.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/VMX/360Greeves%7C_02.jpg)
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yes bantams and C10's are horribly slow. I once rebuilt a 125 bantam motor a couple years ago for a guy who was way overweight, he was huge, well over 120KG's im sure. I just couldnt believe it when he brought the bike in. And he actually rides it even though he almost swallows it up :D He actually called the other week about putting a electronic ignition on it so hes still been getting around on it.
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Marc and Mark, you two read my mind. I was going through my small stash of VMX mag last night looking for this sort of stuff, and found the two Tribsa's in issue no.8. I was going to ask tonight why the Triumph thing hadn't been touted all that much and open the thread to find you two had beaten me to it.
The Triumph thing is that BSA had the best frame and Triumph the best engine..... building a Tribsa is a really good way of entering pre 65 as they are just as iconic of that era as Rickman. Engine plates to make the conversion are available through Unity Equip UK which means it is a basic bolt up (as opposed to welder job)....but of course basic build has differing meanings.
Regarding RM tanks etc, realistically you are sinking (sorry investing) 5-6K into you your Tribsa so it is worth using decent components. I picked up Lyta tank the other day for $200 so period bits are still out there. Other tank choices are B50MX, B50SS which gives you kind of correct looking pop up filler cap.
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anyone seen a bike called grump.its a greeves mx roller with a all alloy 500cc unit triumph in it.i see them for sale in the states now and then.
cheers
jim
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Yeh, Ive got an article on one in an old Classic Bike, only they called it a "Grumpy". Must did out the article.
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Regarding RM tanks etc, realistically you are sinking (sorry investing) 5-6K into you your Tribsa so it is worth using decent components. I picked up Lyta tank the other day for $200 so period bits are still out there. Other tank choices are B50MX, B50SS which gives you kind of correct looking pop up filler cap.
Marc I included the RM tank as a cheap way of getting an alloy tank that "sort of" looks period but I get your point. Those Lyta and BSA tanks you describe are getting up around the $500 mark, especially the BSA GP tanks like on the above Tribsa in my earlier post. I recently picked up an American made fibreglass BSA GP replica tank for $20. The guy was selling it as a Carabela tank but luckily I spotted the mistake and saved myself $100. With alloy tanks it pays to surf eBay. They turn up from time to time for a couple of hundred for one with a few dents right up to 500 and more for pristine examples.
Here are a couple of tanks that recently sold and one (bottom) to keep an eye on. Looking at the prices, the RM option still looks more budget.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220417453300&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:GB:1123 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220417453300&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:GB:1123)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290318360252&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:MOTORS:1123 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290318360252&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:MOTORS:1123)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Triumph-1973-TR5T-Alloy-Gas-Fuel-Tank-PROPAY_W0QQitemZ120425933389QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item1c09f1ea4d&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A1171%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Triumph-1973-TR5T-Alloy-Gas-Fuel-Tank-PROPAY_W0QQitemZ120425933389QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item1c09f1ea4d&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A1171%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318)
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well I'm suffering a little from information overload but it is sinking in. I suppose one of the hurdles in assembling bits and pieces for bikes of this era is prying them out of the hands of restorers who only want them to go other restorers. I've had similar probems getting parts for cars that aren't going to be returned to original condition.
I like the idea of the Tribsa a lot, and after I've done a bit more research I'm going to start looking. Are there any real dogs to avoid in terms of engines or other major parts?
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dont forget to look on ebay 2 weeks ago a road race tribsa sold for 3950.00 complete.i should have bought it but assumed it would go for way more.there is one for sale in qld for 12000.00 now.its not he same one.
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you can get brand new alloy tanks in various styles to suit pre 65 bikes from Speed and Sport in USA or Sammy Miller in UK
http://www.speedandsport.com/flyer.html#tank
http://www.sammymillerproducts.co.uk/iqs/sid.0378695004512712506535/tanks.html
i would NOT stick a jap tank on a british bike
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Yeah I just picked up pre unit T100 motor and gearbox for the Rickman....given that the frame is original I may as well build the bike to the correct specification. ;D
Forget the cost you can save money in other less reqarding areas....like your kids education.
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Marc I included the RM tank as a cheap way of getting an alloy tank that "sort of" looks period but I get your point. Those Lyta and BSA tanks you describe are getting up around the $500 mark, especially the BSA GP tanks like on the above Tribsa in my earlier post.
I guess the point I was making is you can get the real deal if you keep your eyes open, what do they say, don't spoil the ship for ha pennys worth of tar.
I scored Lyta for $200, a couple of good original bits keeps the value of these bikes up.
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Hi Alison ,
Is 'The Grand Poohbah of Firkoland " saying a Bantam and C10 would be a Woftam, he is just so negative . I'm suprised he didn't recommend a Royal Enfield, or perhaps a Ural , what about a early Jawa two stroke twin, they are cheap , no no maybe a postie bike they look like pre 65 model,
Ive ridden a Grump, 500 unit Triumph , early leading link Greeves,a really small bike, but a real rocket.
ps , a unit construcion 750 triumph engine (T140) is not a pre 65 motor ,
If you are pre60 or pre65 inclined, get hold of this book,"British Srambles Motorcycles", the men and their machines, published by Bruce Main Smith, it has copies of actual photos that were used in Magazines and books before 1965 all these photos have the actual date and track they were taken at , mostly English bikes but the occasional Euro CZ and Husqa,
cheers
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Interestingly regarding issue #8 of VMX magazine which was mentioned earlier there is the B44 Rickman for sale in Queensland that is clearly mentioned as pre 65 legal. Have the current rules always been the case.
Anyway I decided that seeing I have original pre 65 chassis that we will use pre 65 legal motor....looks like the class is making a come back ;D maybe a thunder bike formula limited to twins over 130kgs.
Sorry Firko still need my spare B44 (gives me a chance to update clutch and mainshaft) for the Cheney.
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Is 'The Grand Poohbah of Firkoland " saying a Bantam and C10 would be a Woftam, he is just so negative
Yep those C10 Beezas sure are great race bikes. Please pass on your tips or photos of those race prepped C10s, I'd love to see 'em .Did you get run over by a Royal Enfield when you were a child Mikey, you seem to have a bizarre fear of someone actually racing one. Odd ???
I have to congratulate you on your amazing capacity to put a pin in yet another positive thread. You've contributed nothing but criticism and negativity....not a postive word at all, just cheap opportunities to take the piss. Not that it worries me that much. I'm all peace,love and harmony these days so keep 'em coming Mikey, your negativity has no bounds and it's keeping me and I'm sure others well entertained. Perhaps it might be a more positive thing to address the questions I'd asked you in previous posts. I'm so interested in your take on the G85CS and Metisse M3a and their place in pre 65. If youre too shy to answer online, what about a campfire debate on the subject at CD6. What a perfect opportunity to pass on your wisdom to a captive audience of pre 65 stalwarts. ;D
ps , a unit construcion 750 triumph engine (T140) is not a pre 65 motor ,
Ooops...I almost forgot. Nowhere have I mentioned Triumph T140s. I was sure a knowledgable Triumph chap like yourself would have figured that I was talking about a Chantland or JoMo or Norman Hyde 750 big bore kit for the 650 T120 which are quite legal for pre 65.
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If youre too shy to answer online, what about a campfire debate on the subject at CD6. What a perfect opportunity to pass on your wisdom to a captive audience of pre 65 stalwarts. ;D
Hey Firko, will that be bare knuckles, or a MX gloves.
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B25/B40 just wont fit in Alron Frame
[im(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t182/mbmech/xl250003.jpg)
(http://[/[IMG]http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t182/mbmech/xl250002.jpg)img]
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Hey Firko, will that be bare knuckles, or a MX gloves.
Nah Marc, my fighting days ended in 1995 when I was sent off in my very last rugby match for a "scrum indescretion". Haven't thrown a punch since :D.
I'm serious about a campfire yarn. I obviously have some differences of opinion with Michael but hold no personal grudges and look forward to discussing our different perspectives on the sport over a cold Kozel. He's obviously got a bee in his bonnet about me or my opinions so Kamp Kevlars gas heater might be a good place for him to get it all off his chest. Pity you're in Japan Marc, your input would be welcome as well........
*.Congrats on your T100 engine. They're great little engines. I bought one in the USA a few years ago that had seen use in a hill climb bike. I had Frank Stanborough rebuild it in the same spec as I got it, with aftermarket MTC pistons (not sure of the comp)some slight porting, especially the inlet manifold and ports, 650 valves and 3140 Daytona cams. I fitted the engine at first to my M11 Bultaco Mettise and then my Cotton Cobra and finally my Mk4 Metisse (I kept finding better frames to fit it to!). I regretably sold the bike to a fellow who fitted the engine to a shiny new Wasp Metisse pre 65 solo and sold the Metisse to another friend. Unfortunately the downturn in the economy caused him to sell it to yet another forum member in WA. Even though I built the motor 10 years ago, it's still to fire a note in anger.
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B25/B40 just wont fit in Alron Frame
Oh so close Mark! I've seen a T100R Triumph engine in an earlier version of your frame (see photo of Jonesys engineless American Eagle), perhaps the cradle on the early frame is a little bigger? It'd be interesting to compare measurements. I'll talk to you at CD6 about it mate.
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jikov..I really would love to comment, but I'm still on L plates for this bike bit's knowledge.. 8)
Just trying to find a few older bikes and bits that someone might want to pick up and use. ;D
Snowy 76-now that's a tight lookin squeeeze-happy fitting. :o
cheers
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B25/B40 just wont fit in Alron Frame
That's a real bugger, so what are you getting rid of, the engine or the frame ;D
If you are pre60 or pre65 inclined, get hold of this book,"British Srambles Motorcycles", the men and their machines,
just ordered a copy of this, thanks for the heads-up, should help me along a bit, while at the same time annoying the crap out of my wife (she'll be trying to talk to me while I'm reading and getting zero response :))
Started looking at parts and asking for postage quotes ::) can't help myself. Will let you know what I find. Thanks to all for the info so far. I'm sure there's a shiteload more to come.
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i dont know snowy, that looks about the same tight fit as B44 is in GP frame ;). They are a pain in the arse to take in out the frame and virtually impossible to not scratch it even if you try and protect theframe tubes/paint.
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Just had a Idea, what about a BSA engine in a BSA frame :o There`s a few on US ebay, whats pre 65 legal b25, b44? are all the early frames {non oil tank in top frame tube.} OK? So many questions. Got a Round case 400 Husky engine for the Alron.
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B44 - NO. B40 - YES
its only the B44GP and the B50,TR5T, TR5MX that are oil in frame and all of those are not legal for pre 65
The B44 victor special, victor enduro etc use a separate bolt on oil tank similar to the B40.
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Pity you're in Japan Marc, your input would be welcome as well........
Yeah well are playing games with my contact at the moment so who knows....I keep promising myself to make it out for one. ;D
I splashed out a bit for the TT100 engine, it is alloy barreled motor, that is supposed to be a little bit special. We will see.
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....I keep promising myself to make it out for one.
C'mon Marc, what's a tiny little Japan-Oz trip to a wealthy Kiwi expat looking for a bit of weekend VMX fun?
Here's a neat story from 1970 on building a Van Tech framed B44. I can remember going to a closing down sale of a big mootorcycle shop called the Service Centre in Paramount,California around 1976 and seeing the very B44 bike in this article and a Van Tech framed BSA Bantam sell for a couple of hundred bucks for the pair. Even though I was into the latest and fastest then, I remember thinking how cool the bike was. My missus at the time loved the metalflake paint jobs on both bikes (The Bantam had a Union Jack design in redsilver and blue coarse metalflake....cool :D. I've got a couple of American mates looking for a Van Tech frame for me to fit one of my TS90 Honcho engines for a bit of fun.
http://motorbikearchives.com/Features/Bike-Set-Up/BSA-441-Van-Tech-1970.html (http://motorbikearchives.com/Features/Bike-Set-Up/BSA-441-Van-Tech-1970.html)
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....I keep promising myself to make it out for one.
C'mon Marc, what's a tiny little Japan-Oz trip to a wealthy Kiwi expat looking for a bit of weekend VMX fun?
If you want to get very wealthy my advice is stay on the farm, though they are going down the shit house too at the moment.
Anyway this was my inspiration for finally deciding to build a twin.
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/RICKMAN_METISSE.jpg)
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beautiful
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Hi ,
forget topping up your Super , the Government is going to steal the little bit your accountant and Lawyer leave you with, invest in something like this.
These are the kind of bikes they have in Dirt Bike heaven.
Sweet as.
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Hi ,
forget topping up your Super , the Government is going to steal the little bit your accountant and Lawyer leave you with,
yeah what they did was tax you by stealth....you pay the same but get quite a bit less. Some people are addicted to borrowing large amounts and we are all about to support that. Still give it time.
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Hi
Mark before I forget , I can't find any info to support your suggestion that a Chantland , JoMo or Norman Hyde 750 kits were available before 1965.
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Hi
regarding budget bikes , everyone seems to think they cant afford to build or buy a Rickman (Cheney or CCM etc), its just a question of priorities, if you really want too anyone can do it it takes time to save, and a lot of time and effort to build, but like most things it was worth all the trouble ,
A little less time with my good buddies Johnny Jimmy and Jack helped me along , but dont get me wrong we are still good friends.
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Jeez your a stubborn old bugger Michael.....
An anology comes to mind....... Michael lives in a nice posh gated community (the pre 65 class) where he and his equally snobby neighbours enjoy playing golf with other members of the all white population(racing purely British Metisse, Cheney and other blue blood machines). All of a sudden one day a current affairs shock jock (Uncle Firko) goes on air (the OZVMX forum) and speaks of his plan to let mixed race people of a poor social background (Royal Enfield, Japanese and bikes made using parts from many different sources made on the cheap) into Michaels posh suburb (the pre 65 class). All hell breaks loose and Michael calls a meeting at the Golf club to find a way of preventing the riff raff (hot rod bikes and those evil black Indian Enfields)from entering his private community. Michael figured that the easiest way to keep his precious community pure and wholesome was to publicly belittle the shock jock and other pests (anybody threatening the exclusivity of his gated paradise ), criticise Firkos own mixed race suburb ("Firkoland") and niggle at everything Uncle Firko proposes on air (the forum) in regards his precious gated community. Unfortunately, Michaels all white snobs (purist bikes) are becoming scarcer and one day an Indian family (a Royal Enfield) moves into Michaels precious gated community causing a shocked Michael and his golf club friends (The old Snob MCC) go into panic meltdown "Our precious town is doomed now that 'one of those damn Indians' has moved in to our community" (A Royal Enfield had entered the pre 65 class) cried Michael to the ever dwindling group at the Golf club. While he had been busy defending the main gate of his little community a couple of Asian families had moved in (A CB72 and a YDS3 Yamaha) as well as several mixed race families (A Cotton Honda, A Sprite Maico and a loud Italian American Hindall Ducati. Worse still, one of those all white members of the community had an affair with the daughter of the Indian family and 9 months later a mixed race child was born (a Metisse Royal Enfield). "Our community is doomed" cried Michael (the pre 65 class is buggered) as he downed another gin and tonic at the Golf Club (downed a beer at the pub)
A year later: The doom and gloom that Michael had predicted never eventuated. The gate had been removed from the community and a mixed and interesting new population had moved in(the pre 65 class had opened up to a new and interesting lot of engine swap and hybrid machines) and rather than seeing the community turn to a slum, a new and interesting society grew and more and more citizens who'd previously never thought of entering the gated community found that it wasn't as snobby as they'd envisioned and found nothing but cameraderie and fun. Even Michael had adopted a poor crippled Indian kid and was helping him rebuild his life (he bought a wrecked Royal Enfield and was rebuilding it as a cheap racer.) Eventually the formerly snobby gated community had become a welcoming and open town and the envy of other towns.(a fun class to race).
Michael smiled and hugged Ravi his Indian boy (he smiled and Arrmor Alled his Royal Enfield) finally admitting that perhaps there had been something in Uncle Firkos theories on pre 65 multi culturalism.................................
I'm busy getting ready for CD6 as well as organising respite care for my old mum for when I'm away but if I find a spare half hour I'll try and dig out any information on the big bore kits. To give you a hint if you want to do it yourself..take your head out of those old Brit magazines for a minute and research American flat track where I'm sure you'll find that Chantland barrels were the standard to bring the 650 Triumph up to the AMA 750cc limit. Ditto for JoMo (Johnson Motors) who supplied similar kits to the drag racing and salt racing scene. I may be mistaken or he may have been spinning me some bullshit but I believe your old compadre Gavin Martini had Chantland barrels on his red Metisse back in the early 90s. Even if these kits weren't availavle until 2008 it doesn't matter one iota if the external appearance of the engine remains unchanged. What's inside your Triumph is nobodys business.
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Hi
definitely old, not sure about the stubborn part though, stopped reading to start laughing,when you said 'elitist' ,I ride a mongrel bitch ,the literal translation and intention of the Rickman brothers name Metisse , I think it is French for female mixed blood/breeding, there can be no snobbery in the ownership of a Metisse,
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$2000 cheap budget bike 8)
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Classic-AJS-Stormer-250cc-VMX_W0QQitemZ230346299729QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Motorcycles?hash=item35a1b59951&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A1|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50
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It'll go for a lot more than 2k Alison. I know the bike and it's a pretty straight and fairly original old bike. AJS stormers are a decent thing for pre 70 if you can get over the crap electrics and Villiers weirdness. For those who like to do such dodgy stuff, my old mate Peter Reynolds fitted a CR Honda crank and Yamaha piston and was well underway to fitting a 6 speed YZ125 transmission to his Cotton road racer (same engine) before he retired and sold the bike. Doug Grant in the USA was a factory AJS rider back in the 70s and today is one of the guns in the legend and pro classes, regularly beating guys like Lackey and the late Jim Pomeroy. He uses late Yamaha ignition, a Yamaha piston and V force reeds and his bikes positively hoot, especially the 250. They have quality REH hubs and forks, are as light as all shit and are as pretty as a picture. It'll be interesting to see what it sells for.http://www.mccookracing.com/profiles/dougGrant.htm (http://www.mccookracing.com/profiles/dougGrant.htm)
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Here's forum member Jims (jimg1au) under construction pre 65er a BSA A65 frame with a methanol burning early Ariel (early 40s!) 500 engine. This old thing would slot into the pre 60 class as well.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/BSA%20ARIEL%20GARVEY.jpg)
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hmmm... Roach of the month ..... ooops slipped out >:(
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may be roach of the month but the motor has more australian racing history than most bikes on this forum.
the engine was built by art seionr a specialist ariel engine builder and then later rebuilt by a guy called sid willis.for those who are TOO young to know who sid willis was he built a velo from scratch yes he cast everything himself in his house in carlton sydney took it to the manx rases in england and beat the factory velo riders.he also used to build stan and steve baylis honda engines for bathurst
1 day it will ride again.i know all this to be true as the previous owner had it since the early 60s in a home made slider frame but powers to be wont allow sliders to race with vmx bikes in dirttrack.the owner being my brother and i remember him building it and the trips to sids house.
cheers
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How could I have forgotten our other neighbour ::) http://www.ozvmx.com/classies/list/2
Couple of British not so expensive on there. ;D
cheers
Firko:It has 1day to go and no bids,could be someones lucky day.Just spotted the reserve bit :-\ still could be interesting :o Hope to see it out on the tracks one day. 8)
now Three bids in three hours ::)
marcFX: Roach's can live through a Nuclear Holocaust ;)
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Hi
Mark before I forget , I can't find any info to support your suggestion that a Chantland , JoMo or Norman Hyde 750 kits were available before 1965.
Hi, I think the Sonny Routt 750 kit may fall within the parameters.
And jimg1au, if people haven't heard of Sid Willis, then they should brush up on their knowledge of Australian motorcycle racing history, and see just what the little bugger did off his own bat, opening eyes on a national and world level. A little champion !
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Sid cast up a set of teeth in aluminium,was ok till they & his mouth went black!! :P
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These them matchomick-Aussie ingenuity.Useful ideas ;D
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=847.0
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theres a R/Enfield Woodsman on e bay at the moment,6 days to go,good project budget material,although why anyone would want to transplant later model motor ???
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http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Vintage-Motorcycle-Gearbox-Burman-AMC-Matchless-AJS_W0QQitemZ320378510474QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories?hash=item4a980c1c8a&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A1|66%3A2|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50
the OS folks are pinching our bits-quick get shoppin :o
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not as GOOD as the 49 G80 C "compy" gearbox,i especially liked the punch marks touch around the obvious filed area where the numbers were "presented",pre disstressed as in "OLD" furniture,hmmmm wheres my number stamps ;D
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How about this sweetie Ariel at CD6?
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/cd6%20125.jpg)
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Took me 8 pages to look at this thread. Its been a good read. I have sent some (lots) of money off to a chap in the US for a CZ twin pipe motor, frame and swingarm. With a donor bike that dad has, this bike will come together fairly quickly.
So it wont be a budget bike but another racer for pre 65. Cant wait.
CD7, theres a goal!
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holshot, Talk to Rod Mc Donald Vic, He has a lot of dots, even a rare twin port dot 360.
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How about this sweetie Ariel at CD6?
I know this guy, he races at Nudgee. He actually brought the bike with him when he came out from England not too long ago.
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If anyone is interested I have BSA B50MX/Triumph T100R hybrid for sale. Not quite finished but complete, was running before disassembly for cosmetic resto. Has CZ front end, period Preston Petty guards and CZ steel coffin tank modified to fit as well as Triumph tank.Selling to finance another Tribsa cafe racer project.
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What kind of money are you asking Walloway?
Although the bike isn't a pre 65er it'd make a very sweet racer anyway. This is the type of bike that while being totally ilegal for pre 65, still ticks all of the boxes as a pre 65 "type" bike. Perhaps the idea we threw around at CD6 where the pre 65 cutoff should be widened to accept bikes that are 'in the spirit' of the era. Similar to the illfated pre 68 class. I await Michaels input. ;)
I also wonder what the rule Nazis think about Mk8 Bultaco hubs on pre 65 and pre 70 bikes (and pre 75 for that matter). I saw a pair of Qld based Beezas at CD6 with those hubs fitted and pre 70 X on the plates.
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How much? How I hate that question. Somewhere around $5000. Tell me what you think? I only decided to sell it last night after I bought another bike yesterday and this is the first place it has been offered.
The motor dates at 04/70 and the frame is 07/71
Don
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Hi
Yes it was a pity more pre65 bikes never made it onto the track at CD6 ,I understand that some enjoy the building /restoring side of the sport, and of course the accumulation of injuries has to be taken into account as well, but well done Dave AJS, Rob Ariel, Rory Metisse ,Alan ESO Metisse, were there any others that actually fired a shot?, it was great to hear some real scramblers,
Do we need an overhaul or reappraisal of the pre65 rules as there are plenty of anomallys that are confusing to anyone trying to get a budget racer started ,
eg; A 1971 650 Triumph motor is legal for Pre65
A 1974 500 Triumph motor is legal for Pre 65
A 1967 BSA B40 (Army issue ) is legal for Pre65
A 1967 BSA B44 is not legal for Pre 65
Is a Triumph TR5 T legal? the motor is and the frame is not the same as the BSA single.
I'm sure you can find others if you look long enough.
Over to you ,
Cheers
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eg; A 1971 650 Triumph motor is legal for Pre65
A 1974 500 Triumph motor is legal for Pre 65
A 1967 BSA B40 (Army issue ) is legal for Pre65
A 1967 BSA B44 is not legal for Pre 65
Is a Triumph TR5 T legal? the motor is and the frame is not the same as the BSA single.
i say no to all the above as they are trying to worm their way in via the 'follow on rule' which i dont agree with or like
a 71 motor is a 71 motor so not pre 65 and i can tell you there are changes right through the 650 Unit constuction motors. They are not all exactly the same the same
same thing for the 74 triumph 500 triumph - pre 65 legal - no way
67 BSA army 350 - No.
TR5T - you mean the 500 unit single triumph twin motor in BSA B50 frame (Adventurer) pre 65 legal- i think definitely not but pre 75 for sure!
if you start allowing any those as follow on models then you should allow 75 TM's in pre 75 and 2007 TS185's in evo or pre 85. I am totally against trying to claim newer model bikes as follow on models as it opens up more cans of worms and starts many arguments as to what is a follow on model. There are too many people trying to bend the rules.
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If club members and clubs don't push the pre 68 and earlier era's ,they will treat us like mushrooms....
keep fighting the good fight :P
BUY IT- ENTER IT -RIDE IT ;D
walloway don where are you ??
cheers
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Hi,
I agree with you,
I'm just reading the rule book ,"Tables of Machines and Components -1960,1965, Acceptablefor the Pre65 class are machines built up to and including the 1964 model.The only exception to this GCR is where the model remains UNALTERED after this date " Then they go on to say ; All Triumphs, All except T140 TSS T150 T160 and BSA unit single derivatives , just confusing and ambiguous.
but the TR5T is not the same frame or motor as the BSA B50, they are different. the twin motor does not fit the B50 frame. the Triumph TR5MX is the single BSA B50, the Triumph TR5T is the 500 twin , ie; not a BSA single derivative
cheers
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eg; A 1971 650 Triumph motor is legal for Pre65
A 1974 500 Triumph motor is legal for Pre 65
A 1967 BSA B40 (Army issue ) is legal for Pre65
A 1967 BSA B44 is not legal for Pre 65
Is a Triumph TR5 T legal? the motor is and the frame is not the same as the BSA single.
i say no to all the above as they are trying to worm their way in via the 'follow on rule' which I dont agree with or like.
An admirable stand, or would be if the pre-65 class was flourishing, and embarassed with entries, but if there seemed to be only a handful of pre-65s at a ride day where there could have been up to a thousand machines, then surely it's time to lighten up, Leith... ;)
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I know there is more to this topic budget bikes than just pre 65 but....................
http://www.pre65.co.uk/links.asp
interesting ;D
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Hi
Again I agree, but theres is no logic in having a class called Pre 65 if it doesn't in fact have only pre 65 bikes in it .
I think there are too many people who are trying to make the rules fit the bike, rather than building a bike that fits the rules , don't start to build a bike that requires some "creative interpretation" of the rules, oh
oh yes which page is 'In the spirit " listed , or is this the loophole for those who want to bend the rules , or are too lazy or stupid to do the job properly in the first place . If you really want to have a Pre65 race bike there are plenty out there, you dont have to remortgage the farm , but it does require some time and effort
cheers
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Hi
What I was going to say was, the pre65 is unlikely to be a class for those who want to build a Budget racer , I'm not saying it cant be done , but the scarcity and obvious costs of the bikes and their components from the "olden days" is still going to take a big bite out of your back pocket, even old f****d bikes or bits cost a lot to fix ,let alone make go fast .
Maybe for there should be a "bucket" class in pre 75 . there is a lot more bikes that fit that era.
cheers
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Again I agree, but theres is no logic in having a class called Pre 65 if it doesn't in fact have only pre 65 bikes in it .
yeap thats a really goog point!
Today i was doing some work on a Competition 500 AJS (replica, not genuine compy) which was one we did a while ago for someone who in the end didnt want it as he didnt ride it much and wanted to sell it. This was a no expese spared concourse resto $$$$$ but he couldnt sell it as the purists didnt want it as it didnt have the competition number on the crankcase, thats the only reason. So yeah couldnt sell it kept reducing the price and in then end when he was trailering it home from when we were trying to sell it for him some one saw it and asked about it and the onwer said its for sale and he sold it on the spot for about 4 or 5 grand which was way under value and the buyer got a absoloute bargain and the seller was just happy to have sold it all. Anyway when fitting new fork boots to it today as the others has split i was kinda thinking i wouldnt mind having a pre 65 class bike but i reckon it would have to be something japanese, dont know what choices there are in that department?
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Very little... I looked around, and the most promising pre-65 Jap bike that I could find was the Yammie YDS1 roadie...
I took a $200 gamble that I can make it work at least passably well for grass-track MX: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=150345477458
Its actually the very-rare-in-Australia YM1, which I'm told makes more MX-style power than the 250cc YDS. The word from Lozza is "50hp and a lobotomy, or 40hp and torque to dig trenches to China", but seeing as I haven't even picked the thing up yet, I can't offer any useful advice.
If I was 20~30kgs lighter and a lot better rider, then maybe a little 90cc YG1 could be made to work for even less money???
I know that there's any number of pommy singles that will be a lot easier to get engine parts for, and will make much more MX-friendly power - but they're all a lot more expensive to buy, and invariably have RHS gear-levers.
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I don't know whether this makes any difference to anyone but this bike I have is not aTR5T,it was built as using a genuine BSA B50MX frame B50MX HF1**** and engine T100R DD4****. When it was built , I don't know,what class you can race it in, I don't know, I was going to put it on the road . If no-one here wants it thats OK with me, just thought it was the type of bike you blokes were interested in.
Regards Don
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I don't know whether this makes any difference to anyone but this bike I have is not aTR5T,it was built as using a genuine BSA B50MX frame B50MX HF1**** and engine T100R DD4****. When it was built , I don't know,what class you can race it in, I don't know, I was going to put it on the road . If no-one here wants it thats OK with me, just thought it was the type of bike you blokes were interested in.
Regards Don
I don't know what class either - :P Hope some one answers that one.
Don't be too concerned about the ramblings going on in here-we need counseling ;) ;D
Hope you sell your bike to a real good home. 8)
by the way where are you ??
cheers
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south oz , Orroroo.
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south oz , Orroroo.
ah some more good country 8) We have done the Oodnadatta Track and been across to Morgan twice for sidecar events.What bike do you usually ride ?
cheers
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if i wanted english i reckon i would go with a B40 or a bantam, not sure if the 175's were out before 65? A husky would be out of my price range i reckon. Pre 70 gives a lot more options hey
T100R daytona engine isnt pre 65 legal. i would have to check on engine number for you but most likely pre 75 or maybe 70
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its a pre 70 class bike because of the frame.replace the frame with my bsa a10/b33 frame and you have a pre 65 leagle mx/dirtracker.all 500 and 650 twin unit motors are leagle as is the cz (non falta)forks and wheels.yet b50tanks are ok to use.i am building a pre 65 dirtracker as per the rules not the it could be theory.
cheers
jim
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I was going to go for a little Bantam and was told it wouldn't pull the skin off custard :P
Getting an over load here- ::) ;D all good info though 8)
Not that I'm after a Aussie title ,just want to have a chuff (so to speak) now and then ;D
cheers
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triumph engines all except t140.tss.t160,t150&bsa unit single derivatives.ma words not mine
http://www.ma.org.au/AM/Template.cfm?Section=General_competition_rules&Template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentFileID=41129
read the gcrs and get the rules
cheers
jim
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if i wanted english i reckon i would go with a B40 or a bantam, not sure if the 175's were out before 65? A husky would be out of my price range i reckon. Pre 70 gives a lot more options hey
T100R daytona engine isnt pre 65 legal. i would have to check on engine number for you but most likely pre 75 or maybe 70
The T100R is quite legal for pre 65. My own T100r was a '59 model. Al Bantams are legal for pre 65. Validated by MoMs.
Walloways bike is pre 75 legal as it's a B50 frame and they weren't released until 1971.
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ok i was thinking of the Unit daytona motor from early 70's
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your right mark i was getting mixed up with b44s and victors
cheers
jim
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yes still pre 65 leagle only 750 and up arnt leagle
cheers
jim
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ok i was thinking of the Unit daytona motor from early 70's
It's the same engine.
say no to all the above as they are trying to worm their way in via the 'follow on rule' which i dont agree with or like
a 71 motor is a 71 motor so not pre 65 and i can tell you there are changes right through the 650 Unit constuction motors. They are not all exactly the same the same
same thing for the 74 triumph 500 triumph - pre 65 legal - no way
67 BSA army 350 - No.
TR5T - you mean the 500 unit single triumph twin motor in BSA B50 frame (Adventurer) pre 65 legal- i think definitely not but pre 75 for sure!
This is just the pedantic reason that the pre 65 class is all forked up.
i
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ah some more good country We have done the Oodnadatta Track and been across to Morgan twice for sidecar events.What bike do you usually ride ?
Would you believe a Moto Guzzi Quota, all 250 kgs of it . Rode up to Finke last year ,Marree,Oodna, Mt Dare , top ride .
Bsa Bantam D7 175 3 speed from 1959, about 10 hp.
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ah some more good country We have done the Oodnadatta Track and been across to Morgan twice for sidecar events.What bike do you usually ride ?
Would you believe a Moto Guzzi Quota, all 250 kgs of it . Rode up to Finke last year ,Marree,Oodna, Mt Dare , top ride .
Bsa Bantam D7 175 3 speed from 1959, about 10 hp.
WOW- couldn't out run a camel with that ;D ;D
here's a budget bike buy.... 8)
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Classic-vintage/auction-223609882.htm
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WOW- couldn't out run a camel with that ;D ;D
What, the Quota or the Beeza ;D
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wouldnt mind having a pre 65 class bike but i reckon it would have to be something japanese, dont know what choices there are in that department
I reckon the best Japanese pre 65 choice is the CB72/CB77 Honda range. The engine is as solid as a rock, can be used in either 180 or 360 degree configuration, all sorts of great speed equipment can be found for them including modern ignitions (Chinese)and modern style short skirt pistons. They can easily be enlarged from 305 to 350 or even bored and stroked to a full 500. Frame wise you could use a CL Honda original with some gusseting or perhaps a Sprite, bolt up Husky or Cotton frame or any of the class legal Metisse or Cheney range. Betor/CZ or Ceriani forks/Bully wheels and a bit of lateral thinking and you've got a good solid and reasonably cheap little racer. Remember that these engines were good enough for Billy Snellings Honda to win Classic Daytona a few years ago against Manx Nortons and G50 Matchys. I've got a 305 half completed in a Cotton frame and it would be a good thing if I ever decide to complete it.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/BolgerYetmanHonda670875.jpg)
As far as my earlier quote re: the "spirit of the era class" Michael has once again twisted my meaning to suit his argument. I have never said I was referring to the pre 65 class. It was just reporting the result of a conversation that Jonesy, Frank and a few more of the old timers who have those bikes had during CD6 attempting to find ways of prolonging the life of the class. Frank Stanborough has built a number of pre 65 bikes and road racersis one of classic racings best brains and he brought up the point that the reason the Brit, Euro and American rules are more free than ours is that they saw the drop off in competitors a decade or more ago and modified the rules to keep the class alive, hence the B44 and other like machines being allowed. It's very easy to sit back with a shed full of pukka bikes and say that the class must remain pure but it's going to be lonely for those blokes if new blood isn't introduced. It's pre 65 that's in strife today and it'll be pre 70 and pre 75 tomorrow and the next day. If something isn't done soon to keep these classes vital and alive they'll soon schrivel up and become classic dirt and half time show pony novelties.
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If something isn't done soon to keep these classes vital and alive they'll soon schrivel up and become classic dirt and half time show pony novelties.
or the 3 pre 65 bikes that turn up race a separate class at the back of the pre 70 fields and everyone looses complete interest. I think you need to rename thunderbikes and race only Triumph twins.
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Hey Firko.
Is this Michael bloke a regular at Aussie race meets?
Dave Mac
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Dave...Credit where credit's due...Mr Bamford is a regular racer and has been a part of the Queensland vintage motocross scene for as long as I remember. He's a decent rider, his bikes are nice and "pukka" and once you get through the uppity veneer is a decent bloke who honestly believes he's doing the sport a service with is pedantic attitude.
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I knew you would know - thanks Mark!
Pedants are generally a pain in the arse in that they are sooooooooooo prescriptive and as a result your average laconic Aussie is scared off by them.
As I said in another post that is what makes EVO so appealling with a relatively simple formula with very little bullshit that a pedant can use for an argument.
It would be great to see more of the old bikes out there but something tells me that those classes are fading which is a bloody shame. The sound of big bangers goes right through you !!!
Dave Mac :(
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Again I agree, but theres is no logic in having a class called Pre 65 if it doesn't in fact have only pre 65 bikes in it .
There you go Michael, you say it yourself. Why then don't you address the fact that a G85CS Matchless wasn't released until 1966 and your own Metisse Mk3 A frame which is noticbly different to the Mk3 wasn't released until 1965...after the December 31 1964 cutoff.
Now, I don't give a flying fork if those machines compete in pre 65, in fact I agree with and encourage them. My problem is that Mr Bamford can sit on his throne up at Pre 65 Central and dictate that other FLOW ON bikes like the B44 and Cheney aren't allowed when the criteria that excludes them isn't used for his own bikes frame which is in fact a post 1965 design and the G85CS Matchy engine and complete bike which didn't exist in 1965 let alone 1964. What was that old chestnut about glass houses?........One more unadressed question....What are your thoughts on those Mk 8 Bultaco hubs fitted to two well known Queensland pre 1970 BSAs that we spotted at CD6? Methinks those particular bikes should be in for some strife at CD6 from Mr Bamford himself if he's so adament about strict cutoffs.
I await Mr Bamfords replies with anticipation.
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i did some checking on T100's
T100R - 70-73
T100C - 70-71
T100T - 66-70
T100A - 59-61
T100SS-61-70
TR5T - 72-73
so if your motor is stamped T100R then i dont think it should be pre 65 legal
looking at that list, the motors that should be pre 65 legal
are
T100A 59-61
T100SS - 61-64
that honda looks interesting but it kinda has a US dirt track look about it which im not that keen on, probably because it is missing the front guard.
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Hi
I had better do some more reading , where can I find out about the the Metisse Mk3 and the difference between the Mk3A, is there a reference on line ,or in print some where?
I might have to withdraw from the pre 65 class,
cheers
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Leith....What makes those post 1965 Triumph engines so evil that they shouldn't be in the class? There's bugger all difference enough to matter. In fact the twin carby Daytona head is a hinderance rather than a help.
With respect mate, have you ever been to a big vintage motocross and actually seen the pre 65 class in action? Being from the vintage motocross wasteland SA I'd take a wild guess and say that you haven't. If you had you'd realise that the class would die an even quicker death than it is now if your perspective was introduced. What is it with you guys trying to make it harder to get involved in the class? I would have thought that allowing engines that are for all intended purposes identical to the pre 65 versions is a positive thing. Funny that in the countries that have allowed the rules a bit more of an open interpetation the pre 65 class is booming. Here, it's just going through the motions. That's why I'm so passionate about reviving and saving the class. It's for everyone to enjoy, not just a bunch of purist wankers.
Whatever, it doesn't matter what you think....the rulebook allows them so it's not worth arguing the point.
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Hey Mark
I think it has something to do with trophy hunting , the less predators on the plains the easier it is to catch the game.
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Its just that i think that bikes/engines should be from the period of class they are in not later, but if the rule book allow them then fair enough then.
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where can I find out about the the Metisse Mk3 and the difference between the Mk3A, is there a reference on line ,or in print some where?
Give the Rickmans a ring. Pat French himself told Alan when he was building his ESO frame that the first unit Triumph jig wasn't made until 1965. Prior to that they used the larger pre unit Mkk3 frame for unit applications. Pat thought it funny that the single downtube Cheney critics had conveniently overlooked the fact. There are a number of detail differences between the MK3 and MK3A. I'm not a Metisse expert by any stretch but I can see the difference once they're pointed out to me. Give Jonesy a ring, he'll fill you in. ;)
But don't get all sooky on us and pull the plug on the class Michael. The Mk3a is quite legal as it should be. I was merely making a point that you seem to have blinkers on in regard to the points I've raised. I've asked your opinion on the Matchy at least 6 times and you conveniently sidestep the question yet again. And what about your fellow racers dodgy Bultaco hubs? I'll be at the Nationals doing some announcing so going on your previous actions regarding your fellow racers, I'd expect you to take some afirmative action. If not, you're letting the boys at Pre 65 Central down. ;D
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Here's an idea and may I be struck down for suggesting it.
Instead of per 65 and pre 70 classes which are both not overly well patronised these days why not just create a pre 70 class and forget the Dec 31 64 cut off. This would create an expanded class and would perhaps create races not just parade laps. Buggered if I know as I am one of the unwashed looking from the outside in ???
Then the pedants only have to focus on ONE cut off date and the fair dinkum guys can get on with it
Dave Mac :D
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DAVE...I see where you're coming from but the differences between the pre 65 class and the pre 70 class are many and varied. The pre 65 class is a showcase for the last bastion of the old British thumper and the birth of the purpose built motocross bike (Metisse, Cheney etc.) while the pre 70 class is closer in concept to the pre 75 class as far as the bikes involved. I personally think the pre 68 4 stroke class is a more attractive option as it celebrates the sound and fury of the thumpers and allows a broader scope of bike selection. The purists at Pre 65 Central don't agree however.
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The whole point of the vmx movement was to preserve the bikes and feel of scrambling from the time of the twins to the long travel bikes of the late 70's early 80's. any thing after that is just C grade moto cross. I am lucky enough to have built a metisse but not one part would have been manufactured before December 1964 the frame is repo engine is a t100r wheels, triumph conicals, forks ceriani's 70's my point is the bike look's pre 65 sounds pre 65 & is fun. I thought the legality of a bike was judged after a protest so if the bike is not pucker it is out end of problem. Next point the class has to be fun for the also rans if it is not then the class will die I hope there will be the numbers to make up a championship class at the Nats as the course looks to be a bit tough for fat bastard's like me. Michael let me just point out that the 500cc class was always the premier class not the 750's. Now it is back to the barons black wattle followed by a cascade first harvest.
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big mac reading your post ,I think that the Nats in the pre 65 class will be very competitive class and it's about preserving it........Can't wait :P
I also believe this class will be supported in the future(while I'm around). 8)
I can't wait for the Nats to see what is out there and I believe there is still a strong movement for the pre 65 in Australia -we just have to keep knockin at MA's door. ;D
Keep posting
yours in preserving fat bastards-(your words) Alison ;)
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This '59 Greeves 250 might be a pretty good thing for the pre '65 class. It's for sale in a package deal with a rare and trick Bolger OSSA Mar trials bike basket case for around 4kUS (delivered to Long Beach) for both bikes. The Greeves itself is a bit trick, it has an aftermarket Marcelle barrel and head and a weird pipe made by some California Greeves guru, possibly Nick Nicholson, back in the day. It also appears to have either an REH or Rickman rear hub and what looks like a Honda front wheel. PM me if interested.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/greeves%20mob%20al1.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/greeves%20mob%20al.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/bolger2.jpg)
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i did some checking on T100's
T100R - 70-73
T100C - 70-71
T100T - 66-70
T100A - 59-61
T100SS-61-70
TR5T - 72-73
so if your motor is stamped T100R then i dont think it should be pre 65 legal
are you sure about those manufacturing dates, Triumph is a little trickier than you think and you need the serial number of the engine.
I have T100C and it is 57 model
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is yours a unit or pre unit motor? im pretty sure first T100 unit model was 59. i wll do some more checking if you like. im pretty sure i got engine numbers for most triumphs.
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In the pre-unit period T100 was the 'super high performance' version of the regular 'speed twin' 500. The first of the unit 500s appeared in '59, as the (unit) 5TA Speed Twin was introduced to replace the original pre-unit speed twin. A year later, in 1960, the Tiger version or T100 appeared in unit form, as the T100A. Other than the unit T100c models, Im only aware of the T100C existing as a PRE-UNIT bike for a single year, in 1953, as the road race model. 1957's TR5 Trophy (gorgeous bike) was the off-road effort. As Marc intimated though, the model designation is included in the engine number, and this should be pretty good proof of what was made at the time. There are lots of mistakes in the literature written years after the event. None of this is really helped by Triumph's use of 'Tiger', 'Trophy', the 'C' designation and of course, 'Daytona' for a confusing selection of diverse bikes which all really shared the same fundamentals, barring of course, the pre-unit to unit switch. The first of the unit 500 'T100C' models was actually made in '66, essentially the same 'off-road' or competition bike having previously been called the TR5AC ('61), TR5AR / TR5SC ('62), and T100SC ('63/64/65). The T100R Daytona (twin carb) first appeared a year later in '67.
Getting back to the subject of the thread itself, and considering Firko's post above and the rules allowing a pretty diverse range of Unit Triumph engines, an obvious candidate has to be a Unit 500 powered Greeves frame. Although the one-make Greeves mx championship is pushing prices of these bikes and parts a little higher in the UK, frames are regularly available and provide an interesting alternative to either the standard and rather weak early Triumph unit frames or the more exotic hand-made alternatives.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Greeves-Hawkstone-frame_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c66Q3a2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a1683Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem3ca2e06c33QQitemZ260430654515QQptZUKQ5fMotorcycleQ5fPartsQQsalenotsupported
Here's a passable completed example:
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2229798750028267445KekIDT
Another even more attractive choice might be a (eg YDS2/3?!) Japanese engined Greeves special..by no means an insurmountable swap, and neatly side-stepping all that costly 4 stroke gubbins.
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Frank Stanborough of Manx Metisse fame is currently building an extremely well thought out NSU Sportmax powered Greeves that is destined to be a serious pre 65 racer. The unique engineering big Frank has put into the bike is amazing.
Thanks for the Triumph 500 unit info Clutchy. I had two engines for my Metisse, a '59 T100C and a '70 T100R bottom end and they were virtually identical, in fact we swapped and changed bits to make the race engine based on the early cases. That's why Leiths "keep the engines pre 65" stance annoyed me a little as by calling to disallow identical later engines and to restrict engines to purely pre 65 manufacture and we'd be making it even harder to find suitable equipment than we do now.
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In the pre-unit period T100 was the 'super high performance' version of the regular 'speed twin' 500
Yep you need the engine number, I am building T100C pre unit motor at the moment, it is alloy barrel engine.
Triumph says C denotes high compression version.....
Regarding Rickman frames in principle unit frame should not be eligible for pre 65 as was mentioned earlier
they were not produced until post 65. Should be pre unit Mk3 or Mk 3 A with correct unit motor.
So also any kits that use repo unit frame are not really eligible.
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Should be pre unit Mk3 or Mk 3 A with correct unit motor.
In actual fact Marc only the Mk3 should be eligible for pre 65 as the Mk3A wasn't produced until 1965. The same criteria that disallows B44 BSAs and single downtube Cheneys allows 1966 Matchless's and Rickman frames that were first produced after 1965. It should be all in (my choice if given a vote) or all out, not omitting certain bikes and allowing others with no rhyme or reason.
I'll repeat my oft repeated mantra that if certain people didn't own BSA B44s and single tube Cheneys, both would be deemed eligible for pre 65 here in Australia. Some pretty ordinary political skulduggery went down a few years ago just to satisfy certain egos and grievences. No names, no packdrill but it's time to mend the damage done . ;)
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In actual fact Marc only the Mk3 should be eligible for pre 65 as the Mk3A wasn't produced until 1965.
Mk3A could be considered follow on model. As I have mentioned earlier my only concern with the B44 is how it could dominate the class given . Looking at the current UK season result and last season quite clearly Cheney B44s (albeit 500cc 3 speed running on methanol) are very competitive, but there were also some twins in the top ten.
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Mk3A could be considered follow on model. As I have mentioned earlier my only concern with the B44 is how it could dominate the class given
Yeah Marc, the Mk3a is a flow on and should be (and is) legal. I'm only mentioning it to make a point that it isn't as cut and dried as Mr Bamford would have us believe. He owns a very nice Mk3a Triumph 650 unit Metisse and if someone with his same sense of right and wrong was ruling over the pre 65 class, his bike would be declared ineligible based purely on Mr Bamfords own philosophy. 8)
As far as the B44s I have to agree with you Marc. The little Beeza engine can be turned into a 50hp monster with a bit of engineering nouse. I've seen inside a very, very trick road race B40 engine built by one of our Klub Kevlar braniacs and it's amazing. It's got a modified Godden Speedway crankshaft, Carillo rod, Venolia short shirt piston made for a current Benelli, titanium valves and hand made titanium rockers and valve springs. The engine has a 5 speed Quaife box, kevlar NEB speedway clutch with a titanium basket and belt drive. The owner of the engine has it in a Rickman CR frame for road racing but has often threatened to fit the CCM 3 speed trans he has in the cupboard and fit it to his Mk3 Metisse MX frame. It's only 350cc but would whoop most 500 MXers in pre 65. It's not so fair when compared to some bloke racing an old Royal Enfield or Greeves but that's the way the racing cookie crumbles. There's no way to prevent internals being modified to the nth degree. What would prevent someone doing similar stuff to a Triumph or (horror of horrors, an Enfield India)? As we've previously established you can run a 750cc top end oand as much internal gadgetry as you can get in there on your Trumpy as long as the externals are largely unchanged.
Thankfully the old adage that the slower the rider, the faster his bike must be rings true. Most of the fast blokes race fairly rudimentary setups. The bling bikes are mostly show queens or mid packers so it all evens out on the day.
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There is a fairly well beaten path that dates from the 1960s to B44 domination that involves NEB 3 speed, Carillo rod, 500cc piston, new clutch and methanol.
The top 4 bikes in the UK were running similar set ups in Cheney chassis.
50hp I guess is possible, but importantly you can build a bike at just a touch over 100 kilos which is what really makes the difference.
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when you're referring to a B44 does this mean a BSA 44x?
if so why wouldn't the bike in this pic be legal for pre65 (if my understanding is correct and it isn't legal ;D) if it was "released to the public at the Earls Court show in 1964"
if it is Pre65 legal, ignore me and carry on.
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/mainline_bucket/441.jpg)
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2 words, round barrell ;D
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In 1964 Jeff Smith won the world championship on a hybrid C15/B40 of around 440cc or a bit more. In November 64 there was a prototype B44GP built based on Jeffs factory hybrid bike. These went into production part way through 1965 and were classed as 66 models. In 65 Jeff won the world championship for a second time on a modifed production B44GP. After securing the 65 world 500cc championship part way though 65, he was told to ride a stock B44GP just like the public for good PR. Production of the GP stoped in 67.
That information is from various BSA books and i also have engine and frame numbers of 99% of all BSA's built. under the 64 and 65 models list there is no B44. B44's are only listed under the 66 and 67 model years.
So in my opinion i feel no B44's should be allowed in PRE 65 and i dont think they should be classed as a follow on model as the engines are totally different and not much at all interchanges between the 350 and 441cc bikes.
if so why wouldn't the bike in this pic be legal for pre65 (if my understanding is correct and it isn't legal ) if it was "released to the public at the Earls Court show in 1964"
Depends or where the information is from. i have info that in November 64 a prototype was shown at the earls court show. This was what the first B44 model (1965 model) was going to be like. The 65 model only went into production just after the show and then into 1965.
even if the public could buy one in November 64, it is still this is only a '65 model'. You need a 64 model to be in pre 65. just like you can have up to 1974 models in pre 75 and up to 1984 models in pre 85.
as there was no 1964 model B44 i dont think there is an argument.
Bottom line is there was NO production model 1964 B44's There were only the works/protoype/special C15/B40's that Jeff Smith etc rode
im guessing the 65 & 66 matchless is allowed as follow on as the engines are the same as 64? the B44 engine was new for during 65 for the 66 model, so i dont think anyone can claim its a follow on of a 64 B40 ::) but it does seem unfair to allow 65 AND 66 matcheless in pre 65.
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Depends or where the information is from. i have info that in November 64 a prototype was shown at the earls court show. This was what the first B44 model (1965 model) was going to be like. The 65 model only went into production just after the show and then into 1965.
even if the public could buy one in November 65, it is still this is only a 65 model. You need a 64 model to be in pre 65. just like you can have up to 1974 models in pre 75 and up to 1984 models in pre 85.
as there was no 1964 model B44 i dont think there is an argument.
Bottom line is there was NO production model 1964 B44's There were only the works/protoype/special C15/B40's that Jeff Smith etc rode
Now that I can understand ---good explanation------Hope its the truth at last ;D cheers
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as there was no 1964 model B44 i dont think there is an argument.
Now that I can understand ---good explanation------Hope its the truth at last ;D cheers
you could argue that the 65 B44 was a follow on from the Earles Court show model and therefore represents what was available to ride at time. I mean there is only a couple of months in it.
Hell it was probably 1971 by the time it actually made it to NZ.
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Have a read of VMX issue number 11, its all in there and i have it in other books too. ;)
there was no 1965 model B44 though. Only 66 and 67 model B44's. i Cant find any proof of a 1965 model B44 or any engine/frame numbers for a 1965 model. From all i have found out there was only 2 GP models, 66 and 67 and these were built from 1965 to 1967
if someone can show me engine/frame numbers for a 65 model then i would sure like to know.
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All this talk of 50 HP & 100kgs you still gotta race the forking things not just ride them , i would imagine its a bit harder than tapping a keyboard ;)
too true Bill better to race em than ridem as they say in Whanga
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/animals_25_15-1.jpg)
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Hope its the truth at last
There's never been any doubt as to when the B44 was released Alison. The B44 was definitely born in 1965. The debate is purely a hypothetical argument as to whether it should be allowed to race in pre 65 with other 65 and 66 models.
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Although it's a pre 75 frame, here's a bargain for the budding special builder, a late Rickman Zundapp frame, complete with 35mm Cerianis forks. I'd bid except I've already got two and...most importantly, it's on the wrong side of the country to ship cheaply. Still, if the price stays low it'll still be a good deal. The forks alone are worth a couple of hundred!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Rickman-125-Z-Motorcycle-Frame-1972_W0QQitemZ220439379179QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item335335fceb&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1171%7C240%3A1318 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Rickman-125-Z-Motorcycle-Frame-1972_W0QQitemZ220439379179QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item335335fceb&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1171%7C240%3A1318)
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well, so much for waiting a while before starting a new project.
Having said that I'm just collecting parts at the moment, but as of today I am the proud owner of a very schmick (ie. looks like original paint, with a touch of surface rust here and there, all threads intact, all brackets pretty much perfect) 1967? BSA B40 frame.
I know it's not exotica, but for $70 inc swingarm, I thought it was pretty good buying.
May someone (I'm an atheist) have mercy on my soul ;D
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gee paul wouldnt he take 50 bucks for it
shoulda sent me over ;D ;D
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Cool Paul. Now comes the fun part of finding all the bits. 8)
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I'm not much of a haggler Rusty, I couldn't even get him down to $65 ::) ;D
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I'm going to concentrate on getting it rolling first, with that in mind I wanted to ask a bit more about forks and shocks.
Is there a way to identify the Ceriani and Betor forks, and do they have different specifications through the years or were they basically the same design throughout? Can all or most triple clamps be made to fit?
Also, what are these Red Wing copies that are selling on ebay?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Red-Wing-Forks-Ceriani-replicas-34-mm-Italian-bikes_W0QQitemZ270412004984QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item3ef5cfbe78&_trksid=p4506.m20.l1116
As far as shocks go, can they be adjustable modern shocks (within reasona, and with the right look) or do you have to find some period items?
Thanks again, and look forward to more daft questions ;D
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the fork lowers and clamps of Ceriani and Betor looks different. Guard mounting is lower and the bar clamps are different as Cerianis have nut heads recessed into the clamp. I would have to sit both mine together to give you the blow by blow.
But I would say the most important thing is condition and price..... new ones on fleabay make more sense than a set of forks that you have to rebuild. Set of $25 DT250 forks with $4.00 worth of Ceriani stickers makes good budget alternative.
Shocks are free choice so any Chinese 5 spice $189.00 shocks will getthe job done.
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Paul those Redline forks are Mexican made budget replacements for Yamaha or Suzuki 34mm units. I've got a pair and they're nothing out of the bag. Not only that, they don't look period. Look for REH, Betor, CZ or Ceriani from Spanish or Euro MX bikes. Internally Cerianis, CZ and Betor Ceriani copies are almost identical. Spanish and Mexican Betors differ externally but are pretty similar inside. It's confusing but if it's 35mm and either of those brands it'll be OK.
For shockies, as long as they aren't remote or piggy back any of the modern style shocks will do but I like to keep the shocks within a cooee of the era. I've got Arnacos on my Ducati and Konis are designated for my Cheney.
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keep building those pre 60 and pre 65 bikes as MA decision is 10 per class-
they are not budging.. :(...Hope we got ten for Qld !
cheers
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Alison, has there been a formal submission put it, or simply a request to review the rule?
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Alison, has there been a formal submission put it, or simply a request to review the rule?
http://www.ma.org.au/AM/Template.cfm?Section=MA_Reports&Template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentFileID=48388
Nathan page nine of the above minutes.
On the submission side I would have to confirm. 8)
cheers
pm sent
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Here we have one budget bike ready to be boxed to Aussie ;D ...not many of these makes here--
-- so buy buy buy ;) ;D
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DOT-WORKS-REPLICA-SCRAMBLER-VILLIERS-GREAVES-COTTON_W0QQitemZ300327322907QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Motorcycles?hash=item45ece7451b&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A7|66%3A2|39%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50
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Here's a nice little entry level pre 65 bike, along the lines of Alisons Sprite. This is an early Cotton with the 34a motor as in Alisons bike. Later Cottons had Villiers Starmaker engines identical to AJS Stormers.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/cotton1.jpg) (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/cotton.jpg)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Cotton-scrambler-Pre-65-vintage-Motorcross-twin-shock_W0QQitemZ160348471599QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Motorcycles?hash=item255583812f&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1683%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Cotton-scrambler-Pre-65-vintage-Motorcross-twin-shock_W0QQitemZ160348471599QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Motorcycles?hash=item255583812f&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1683%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50)
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The above post got me thinking about Cottons. As I've stated elsewhere I've got a circa '64 Cotton Cobra frame that I originally got to fit my Honda CB77 305 twin. Well, like many of my projects it never got past the "see if it fits" stage and I recently offered it to Nathan for his Yamaha YDS3 pre 65 project. Below is a Cotton with a 500 Triumph engine. Former GP rider Andy Robertson successfully rode one in UK pre 65 until a couple of years ago. The other Cotton features the Villiers Starmaker engine (compare it to the Cotton for sale above) and Ceriani forks instead of the leading linkers. Cottons were very popular in the mid sixties and were the equal to Sprite, DOT,Greeves and other Villiers powered Brit bikes. The AJS Stormer is a flow on from the Cotton. They're still popular in 250 pre 65 competition in the UK and USA.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/cot.jpg) (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/cotton%201.jpg)
Below: Another Triumph/Cotton and a couple of shots of another Cotton Cobra with Starmaker engine
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/cotton%20tri.jpg) (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/cotton_250-2.jpg) (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/cotton_250-1.jpg)
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Very very nice Cotton Scrambler in the UK and a price to match.. 8)
I can't find the guard add in the VMX mag do you know which page and who it is ??
Whilst looking for the advert for guards I've just come across the Cotton story in VMX #34,these Mags are becoming a handy little library. ;D
cheers A
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I can't find the guard add in the VMX mag do you know which page and who it is ??
I don't know what you mean Alison?
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I can't find the guard add in the VMX mag do you know which page and who it is ??
I don't know what you mean Alison?
We need some aluminum mud guards for the Sprite and we thought the add for them was in VMX mag.
thanks
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Try Don Newell in Brisbane, he'll be at Conondale so he may be able to bring them to you there.
PO Box 86 Everton Park 4053 Queensland
Phone:07 - 3353 1874
Fax:07 - 3353 1720
Email:[email protected] (http://[email protected])
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Yep did find it,next to the page on Ducati in the Dirt-450RT ;D
Not a name to forget either-my mums maiden name Newell :-\
yippeeeee right here in OZ in Qld--we can do some serious shopping ;D
Thanks again
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Another Cotton
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280371799181&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:GB:1123 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280371799181&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:GB:1123)
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I just picked up a tank for the bargain price of $89US plus $30 postage, the project is underway ;D
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i had a pair of cottons in early 80s a mx bike just like the one on ebay and a gen factory road racer complete with iom tank and full faring.swaped both for bsa jap and 4 jap long stroke motors.they went to mick mancell in taree.he made the mx into a pre 62 road racer.wish i had them now
might have a pic somewere at home will post if i can find them
jim
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Enfields seem to have a off road legacy.......
Here's something to hot up and copy ;). Lokks pretty cool 8).
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/OzVMX/Indianwoodsman.jpg)
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In the july #241 just bikes mag there is a lovely Cotton 250 1973 in great condition
$3600 NSW ph 02 44433391 page 149
cheers
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I'm getting a bit confused, it's mentioned in this thread that the B44 is a follow on from the B40. Does that mean that with the right bits my b40 frame is pre 65 legal?
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Yep she's legal for pre 65 Paul.
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What about post 65 B40 engine eligibility?
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Hey Mainline, even tho I've got a Greeves Challenger project on the go at the moment, it would be remiss of me if I didn't share this with you and give you a little taste of the kind of fun you might expect to have when your bikes finished...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhuZk5q0qCs&feature=related
Clutchslip
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Ah yes, I've watched that footage a few times now. The whole race is amazing but the final lap is brilliant, especially Bickers sideways with the throttle pinned across the line.
I've been trying to get a copy of that race for my Uncle who also has a Greeves Challenger
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=7132.0
Same as yours?
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Hi Mainline, great racing isn't it? Highly developed Brit two and four strokes, with two riders capable of overcoming the inadequacies of both! I think Bickers left Greeves for CZ in early 66, so I guess this has got to be Winter 65 season at the latest - Smith won the world 500 in 64 and 65. My best guess is early winter months of '65. This is TV not cine footage, so the video speed we are seeing on Youtube is accurate..and looks pretty quick to my eye! Bicker's riding can best be described as...mmm...'forceful'
Your uncle's bike looks great and is a tad more complete than mine at the moment, but the model is pretty much identical. By the look of it, he has his set up as 1966 MX3 with the (first year they were available) factory-optional Cerianis (it could equally have originally been an MX2 tho). Mine's an MX3, but using the 'Banana' leading link forks, as per the Bickers bike above.
Keep us up to date as your bike progresses!
Clutchslip
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This cool B33 made it's debut at Nepean. Great to see another pre 65 starter (actually it'd easily fit into pre 60 . It's a nice thing too.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/NEPEAN%20AUG%2009%20282.jpg)
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Nice B33 Mark. My money would be on the BSA for performance per dollar and ease of build if anyone wants to go the thumper route. Check out the link below for someones own very original and very funny take on the whole 'budget bikes' subject. The guys quite clearly a complete loon, but has had some great fun. Some of his other pages are well worth a read too!
http://www.odgie.com/_mgxroot/page_10783.html
Clutchslip
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I've built up a stash of these hubs hubs and usually pay around $50 each on eBay.
Time to start selling them off Firko, the Bahamas await.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160356567744&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT
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Time to start selling them off Firko, the Bahamas await
I've been to the Bahamas and it wasn't my kind of place. :-\ Giveme the Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico any time over the Bahamas for my escape destination. 8)
I haven't exactly got a shed full of the Rickman hubs Paul, in fact I'm short a back hub for one of the projects after donating one to a mates B44 project.
On the subject of budget racers, hows this one I spotted at the Nepean 50th anniversary meeting last weekend? This is one of those bikes that tell you how tough those old racers were back in the fifties. You've gotta love the workmanship on this old dunger and how does that old saying go? Blue and green should never be seen without another colour in between! The rider must have posessed giant cajones to ride a plunger framed Trumpy, no matter what era we're dealing with. Is that a stock frame of is it from something else? Whatever, it is it must have been a handful in the stutters! You've gotta love the stand too!
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/nepean%2050th%20anniversary%20007.jpg)
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what a piece of work :D the seat /tank junction is truly frightening. I use the word "seat" loosely ;D
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Is that blood stains on the seams of the tank.
OUCH.
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Firko/anyone is there a link/history or do you have more info on the
Blue and green bikes back shockies -thanks :)
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Mark,
Whats the Kaw dirttracker behind the Trumpy in yr last post? Looks interesting. Got any pics of it?
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John, the Kawasaki was built in the early 70s and is based around a Kawasaki 350 Bighorn. At the time importing a genuine flat track frame from the USA was a bit of a job so the owner cut and shut the Bighorn frame using photographs as a guide. A number of us have been involved with aftermarket American frames for yonks checked it out and it had us fooled. It just goes to show what Aussie ingenuity can come up with, using a crap trail bike, a hacksaw and some magazine photos ;D. Peters IZ465 project is a latter generation example of the same spirit. I posted this photo elsewhere but here it is again. The original Budget dirt tracker.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/NEPEAN%20AUG%2009%20286.jpg)
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hey mark that blue and green monster looks to me like an old beeza gold flash or maybe an A7. It being fitted with a beeza bantam tank takes me right back to my start in '57 when most bikes looked like that! no pressure pack cans around then, if you wanted to paint it you got a brush and a little can of whatever paint was available in the local general store.... kind of reminds me of the once only time i rode a rigid Tiger Hundred at moorebank scramble! cheers wally.
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Well spotted Wally, the old girls a BSA. I agree, big Gonads required.
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If I had a jig of an early 70's Wasp- i.e fetherbed chassis, would anyone want some copies for this or that??
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Well spotted Wally, the old girls a BSA
Of course it's an A50, not a Triumph....as my cred slips further down the drain you can even see the BSA emblem on the cases. ::)
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I missed it to Firko, "DOH"
Your Cred is pretty secure I think.
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err A7/A10,(your'e testing us again Firko) :P
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Doh...that A50 thing was a bit of an in joke to a fellow kevlar but it went through to the keeper. A7 or A 10 it is. The cred's certainly gone now. ;D
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CZ rear hub in shed, 35mm forks, triples and rickman front hub en-route as we speak ;D ;D
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Paul, At the next Classic dirt we'll have you drinking Margaritas and Absinthe as we sit around talking about the exploits of Brian Stonebridge and Arthur Lampkin while extolling the virtues of cast iron and Amal carbs.
Welcome to the dark side my friend! ;D
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when I get an engine do I qualify for chilli tasting?
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You Betcha!
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I went to the South Canterbury Motorcycle Clubs 100th anniversary at Timaru NZ last weekend. I spotted this sweet pre 60 class Royal Enfield and immediately thought of this thread. It's a beauty but perhaps not so low budget as an Indian version would be..
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/nz%20400.jpg)
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Alot of looong nights in sth Canterbury, so they can sit around and polish stuff!
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http://cgi.ebay.com.au/James-vintage-motorbike-J15-cadet-villiers-motor_W0QQitemZ230399461189QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Motorcycles?
hash=item35a4e0c745
if only she could talk ;D
cheers
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sit in Canterbury polishing a sheeps ass more like it. Though I must admit fitting an Enfield ignition to my B44... you know the proper Indian one. ;D
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Posted by: firko
At the next Classic dirt we'll have you drinking Margaritas and Absinthe as we sit around talking about the exploits of Brian Stonebridge and Arthur Lampkin while extolling the virtues of cast iron and Amal carbs.
Welcome to the dark side my friend! Grin
Hey Firko, less of the cast iron! ;D While the Holy Grail heroes at CZ were still casting anchor-weight barrels out of iron, and eons before Don Emler and the comedy twins at DG were knocking up trick heads, both the Greeves factory and the very first 'hop up' kings of Vale-Onslow, Parkinson, Marcelle and their ilk were producing all alloy two-stroke engines to beat those oh-so-heavy all-alloy factory four-bangers that had been around since the Norton 500T factory / Alfin attempt immediately post war....
So Mark, this is nothing personal, but I for one feel there's a whole chapter of motocross history, and a highly significant part at that, in the form of British two-stroke development, that tends to get overshadowed by the blinding sparkle of nickle frames and lost in the din of those difficult to ignore four-stroke exhausts, however beautiful those may be. Greeves' loss with Stonebridge's death was to some extent compensated for in the riding department by subsequent double European champion for them Bickers, but the development ace was gone, and the factory and maybe the rest of the British industry in fact died that day too, despite the later championships. Bickers' move to CZ (and even Husqvarna) immediately afterwards shows not just how far they had fallen behind but also how they had lost hope of catching the new 'European' factories. The fact that these were regularly fielding 20+ 'works' bikes and riders, compared to Greeves amateurish levels of support expains in no small part those factories success at the highest levels. But it also shows us that those early CZs were never a bike for the masses in the way that Greeves were. Most of which makes me angry when I see an ex-Bickers CZ is for sale IN THE STATES, for 14,500 dollars. And not just because this bike should clearly have a home in the UK. But also because I recently spotted an ex ISDT Greeves 250, ie a genuine 'works' or 'OW' equivalent Greeves sell for 1,300 Dollars in the States. Complete and original. Astounding. So if we want to talk about 'budget bikes', lets talk about where the value really is to be found at the moment, not just in dollar terms, but in potential race-winning bikes, in the form of these early to mid-'60s Greeves.
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Your right man the bloody twins are over rated ;D
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/IMG_7715.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/0260390260.jpg)
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Clutchy...I couldn't agree more. Greeves, Cotton, DOT, Sptite and all of the other British 2 strokers of the fifties and sixties have long been overlooked in motocross history at the expence of Rickman, Cheney and the 'shiny bikes'.
Brian Stonebridge is one of motocross histories most influencial yet forgotten heroes. If he hadn't died in that car accident who knows what direction Greeves may have taken. That's not to say that blokes like Bickers, Bryan Wade and many others didn't achieve greatness on the marque, it's just that CZ had the development money and those amazing Belgian and Eastern European riders to effectively shadow the British 2 stroke achievements.
Unfortunately the Greeves/Villiers story is typical of the sixties British motor industry in general. They sat on their arses without developing newer, faster products for way too long. As successful as they were on the home front they failed to take the European factories seriously until it was too late. The same thing happened again later in the decade when they treated the threat from Japan with similar arrogance.
The British 2 stroker is indeed a cheapish entry into the market as Wolverines DOT, Alisons Sprite and Jonesys American Eagle/Sprites have shown. I myself have a Cotton Cobra basket case waiting for some shed love and I'm assembling the parts to eventually build a Sprite Maico as my homage to Brit technology (overlooking the German engines of course ;) ). Greeves, especially the later QUB Challengers were extremely competitive and the Hawkestones and other alloy spar framed Greeves models make great pre 65 weapons when combined with modern ignitions and tuning technology. The trouble down here in Oz is actually finding the bikes. For some reasons Greeves rarely come up for sale despite their popularity back in the day. DOTS, Cottons and other small Brit makes are even rarer. Luckily as we've discovered, American Eagle/Sprites are still as cheap as chips in the USA.
America in fact is the best place to find a British bike, no matter what it is. It's cheaper and shitloads easier than getting them out of the UK.
Below: Rod McDonalds sweet Brit 2 strokers. His Anzani powered Dot is surrounded by a pair of Greeves
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/cd5%20rod%20ross.jpg)
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Posted by: marcFX
Your right man the bloody twins are over rated Grin
Little bit difficult to tell where I live... ::)
http://www.pre65.co.uk/photos/marks-tey-16-11-2008/115.aspx
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Little bit difficult to tell where I live... ::)
Yeah bit difficult to even see the bikes under the layer of mud ;D ...but what I did see were B44s going round in pre 65 and the world has not stopped turning, say it isn't so. :o
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Here's a pretty good starter for a project an American friend of ours, Mobility Impaired Al, offered us a while ago in a package deal with a trick Bolger framed OSSA MAR trials bike. From memory it was lees than a grand for both bikes. The Greeves has some unusual bits such as the pipe. The front wheels from something Japanese but overall it's a cool unit if you're into such stuff.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/greeves%20mob%20all%20an.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/greeves%20mob%20al1an.jpg)
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That front pipe is gold !
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(http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/albrid-3/CSCBritishday003.jpg)
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That pipe is nice, nice expansion chamber built in and it is copper! I could build a much better copper one I will have a go at it one day some of those real bodgy jobs are a great talking peice I bet it ran fine with it too thanks, Michael. :)
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just curious as to what tank is on these two? Is it the same tank?
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/0260390260.jpg)
(http://www.classicdirtbike.co.uk/current/issue10-page3.jpg)
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Paul they're BSA B44 GP tanks or replicas
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/BSA%20JOLLEY%20tanks%20aaa.jpg)
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Both are Cheney framed so maybe Cheney replica GP tanks. The twin is the most beautiful British bike on the planet and the B44 (500) was pre 65 champ I think two years ago.
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yeah replicas or standard B44 victor special/victor enduro tanks. The genuine GP tanks didn’t have a flip up monza cap, they just had a plastic bung/plug.
You can get universal alloy tanks for B44's from Sammy Miller in UK but they dont quite looke like a B44 tank.
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but they dont quite looke like a B44 tank
Were there different versions of this tank? I've looked at quite a few of the mobs who do both replica tanks, and those who do complete replica bikes. To my eyes they all seem to be slightly different.
The tank on the Cheney BSA in the pic looks taller than the Triumph powered bike. It may also be a different shape to the one in the pic that Firko posted, but I think the taller seat on the Cheney BSA may be causing an optical illusion.
Are these starting to become like Cobra replicas, where some of them just aren't quite right?
Sorry to seem pedantic, that's just me ;D
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With the genuine B44 tanks they were all the same shape but the road models had an bit extra capicity compared to the GP and also the road models had the flip up cap.
There are a number of places doing replica or universal alloy tanks which dont exactly look the same as a B44 tank but they do 'fit'
This is the universal BSA tank i have seen which is also available from speed and sport in usa
http://www.sammymillerproducts.co.uk/372
http://www.speedandsport.com/flyer.html#tank
There used to be photos of this tank but i cant seem to find them now.
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but they dont quite looke like a B44 tank
The tank on the Cheney BSA in the pic looks taller than the Triumph powered bike. It may also be a different shape to the one in the pic that Firko posted, but I think the taller seat on the Cheney BSA may be causing an optical illusion.
Sorry to seem pedantic, that's just me ;D
The Brits pre 65 scene is much more interesting/developed, popular mod is to channel the B44 tank so it sits lower and use a taller seat.
BSA has 500ccs and methanol and I imagine that little jigger is somewhat more fun than an early 2 stroke. I building my own Cheney to be the same level.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhuZk5q0qCs
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Cheney used a number of different tanks including the tank that's shown above which very much like a B44GP shape. My own Cheney has a different tank again, with mounting bolts through the side of the tank. It sucks but that's the way the old prick made them. After Geoff Morris's magnificent resto on mine, I couldn't stand getting it dented so I'll race my Cheney with a fibreglass B44 replica tank I picked up for $20 on eBay. Besides mine below, shown in the back of the Cheep, another is shown on a Cheney Husky. It's the only other I've seen the same.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/Cheney%20jeep2.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/CHENEY%20HUSKY%201.jpg)
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The cost of pre 65 compatible tanks has gone ballistic in recent times so I've been looking into alternatives. As I mentioned earlier I managed to find a 'Fibreglass Works, Santa Cruz' made proper shape fibreglass replica B44 GP tank for $20. It'd been mistakenly listed as a Carabela tank but the BSA style bung cap and shape gave it away. While chasing American Eagle stuff, I've discovered that the fibreglass AE/Sprite tank is also a pretty good alternative for a pre 65 project. There are 1.5 and 2.5 gallon versions and the bigger one especially looks very Beeza like. The smaller (orange version) still looks pretty good though. Below are two of my AE tanks, picked up for less than $50 each. The orange tank is the one that arrived from the USA still containing petrol! Worth checking out.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/american%20eagle%20tank.1.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/125%20tank.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/125%20tank%202.jpg)
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Alloy-Petrol-Tank-BSA-C15-B40-B50_W0QQitemZ280427487120QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Motorcycle_Parts?hash=item414ac7df90 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Alloy-Petrol-Tank-BSA-C15-B40-B50_W0QQitemZ280427487120QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Motorcycle_Parts?hash=item414ac7df90)
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popular mod is to channel the B44 tank so it sits lower
now you're talking my language ;) I'm thinking I might french the front number plate, and shave the handles while I'm at it :D have you got a custom (kustom) lurking somewhere by chance?
Anyhow, this is the tank I've got
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/mainline_bucket/tank2sm-1.jpg)
I should probably just carry on and use it, but the tank on that 500 BSA just looks perfect.
Thanks guys
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dropping the tank and running a high seat apparently make the bike feel more modern
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I'm picking up what you're putting down, i thought you may have been into 50's customs though when you used the 'channel' reference
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Paul is your tank steel or alloy? I thought it might be similar to that on Jonesys Cheney but I don't think it is on second look.(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/cheney.jpg)(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/cheney%202.jpg)
Speaking of chopping, channeling and seeing your humpy ute in the photo reminds me....I saw the best FJ ute ever a week or so ago. it's still under construction but is a work of art. It has a 5.7 litre Chrysler 300c Hemi with aftermarket fuel injection, late Corvette rear suspension, Jag front end and all sorts of bells and whistles. I'm not so into hi tech hotties but this car blew me away. His aim is for a top 10 Summernats finish in 2011. Sorry for the hijack but being a car guy I thought it right to report it...
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I'm picking up what you're putting down, i thought you may have been into 50's customs though when you used the 'channel' reference
Yep some of my friends build cars so familiar with the whole chopping and channeling thing, building a good car is like building 20 dirtbikes in one. You have to admire the car guys
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no worries on the hijack Firko, if I'm not talking about bikes I'd be probably talking about cars :D
The tank is alloy, I think it is more squat than the one on Jonesy's bike. I think it is the same as this one(http://www.westcoastbritishracing.com/ETuckerWCBRBSAB40MXPremier500Champion.jpg)
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you can see from that how channeled the tank on the Cheney framed BSA is, seems to be a common modification with all the top Brit B44s. Allows you to get over the front wheel more.
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I had B44 one on the Beeza and now have GP tank it is way smaller
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That's Bazzas yellow B44 tank on the previous page.
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cheers again guys. I guess I'll mock it up with some sort of seat and see if I can get it looking the way i want it before I go looking for another tank.
I'm not trying to make the bike look like it has a safety seat on it ;D but I just really like the proportions of that Cheney BSA. I can't afford the frame or the other paraphenalia that goes with it, but I'm pretty sure I can get it close aesthetically (even if it weighs 40 kgs more ;D)
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I reckon the tank you've got is a cool period thing, especially for a B40.
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I reckon the tank you've got is a cool period thing, especially for a B40.
Nah its crap, hack the bottom out of it and drop it down on the motor. Make the seat the same height as the top of the tank and then show the frame some love with some swingarm work, I would weld top brace in and make it stiffer but light.
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mmmm... I dunno about cutting it up. I think the seat on the last BSA pictured is pretty bloody flat which doesn't help things. Actually there's a few bits on that bike that don't help ;D
What do you have in mind though re the swingarm and bracing?
I had intended to lose a few bits of excess bracketry later on to lighten things up after I'd bolted everything in place.
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some nice tanks in here
http://www.rickman-motorcycles.com/parts-and-prices.php
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It all comes down to what you want out of your bike Paul. If you want to build a competitive racer you've probably got the wrong combo. If you're attempting to build a good fun bike to cut a few fun laps with the old farts, you're on your way. Building your B40 to look like those Brit Cheneys takes away any historical relevence your bike posesses. Those Cheney B44s have little resemblence to what was actually raced in the pre 65 era. Just look at Jonesys Cheney which first raced in 1965. It's nothing like the bikes Simon Cheny builds. Chopping and channeling tanks, building up seats, fitting Grimeca hubs and Marzocci forks undoubtedly makes them better race bikes but they're nothing like the bikes ridden during the pre 65 period. Those Brit Cheney Beezas have little in common with what the pre 65 class was developed for, it's a classic example of what happens when you allow open slather on eligibility criteria.
I'm the poster child for building hot rod bikes but I reckon we have to keep them within the parameters of what was accepted and used during the period we're building the bikes for. Your tank might not fit into a modern perspective of what the class is about but it's most definitely more historically correct.
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Fair call. I suppose the main aspect I have a problem with is the massive nut-cracking gap between the seat and the tank on a lot of the old bikes ;D
Like I said earlier, I won't start chopping things up, I'll piece it together and see how it all fits, and go from there. If I re-jig the seat a little to keep my manhood intact, well... I certainly won't be fitting a seat from an 86 Cr250 :D
I know where you're coming from with regards to keeping things era-correct. As far as chopping cars up goes, my custom car preferences are definately late 40's, early 50's traditional customs. I'm not a fan of big billet wheels, modern interiors, or late model mercedes headlights. While we're at it the whole matt black thing has gone on far too long.
But back to bikes, I suppose me carrying on about the tank is more about not being able to find many pictures of that style tank on any of the old racebikes I've looked at. I picked up a copy of that book that Jikov mentioned, and pretty much every BSA in it has a tank more like the GP style.
Anyhow, thanks for the ongoing help.
Cheers
Paul
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Your budget Enfield inspiration ;D
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/112274649_full.jpg)
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Classic-vintage/auction-255903484.htm
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Yep, that's an ugly Enfield. This one shows that if you've got a good eye for proportions and use of the right parts, ugly ducklings can turn out OK.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/royal%20enfield%20green.jpg)
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that seat definately needs a touch more padding ;D especially over the tank bolt :o
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/112274649_full.jpg)
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"the seat needs more cushion over the mount bolt"
Maybe try some progressive coils under the seat, Wally will have the right ones.
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that green #435 Enfield looks pretty sweet... 8)
but i think the seat looks out of place.
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The yellow Enfield is a classic example of what I mean with keeping the bikes within a historic period. The yellow paint (I bet is bloody powdercoat) and XL Honda tank are really, really wrong and spoil the whole period thing. Go back a couple of pages to see the blingy Enfield I photographed in NZ. It's almost exactly the same bike yet by using taste and period colour and parts he got it right. If the bike's used for trials which I suspect is the intention, the seat is fine. But that fugly tank and colour ain't.
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The yellow Enfield is a classic example of what I mean with keeping the bikes within a historic period. The yellow paint (I bet is bloody powdercoat) and XL Honda tank are really, really wrong and spoil the whole period thing. Go back a couple of pages to see the blingy Enfield I photographed in NZ. It's almost exactly the same bike yet by using taste and period colour and parts he got it right. If the bike's used for trials which I suspect is the intention, the seat is fine. But that fugly tank and colour ain't.
Ya missed the Honda front end ;) :-[
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Ya missed the Honda front end
Do I did. Dazzled by the yellow glow I guess. ;D
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now I know exactly where my tank came from
(http://i.ebayimg.com/02/!Bf7qDWgBWk~$(KGrHqIOKjYEryOGezRZBLDPSKGONg~~_12.JPG)
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/BSA-B44-Victor-special-VMX-racer-or-Road-dream-restorer_W0QQitemZ180437206528QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Motorcycles?hash=item2a02e54600
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We've been looking these little Rickman Micro Metisses as good tackle for building an entry level special for quite a while. I recieved the following photos from Paul Pinsonnault in Massachusetts. Paul's an American hill climb legend, vintage racer the bloke I purchased my Cheney RT1 from a couple of years ago. He, like me loves to build bikes that are a little off mainstream.
He's almost completed the little Rickman fitted with a Montesa VA125 engine. He already races a 250 VR Rickman Montesa so with this little bike'll it'll create a pair of bookends.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/Picture213.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/5CF2F186.jpg)
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Here's a cheapy on the Swapmeet this morning. http://www.vintagemx.us/cgi-bin/swapmeet.cgi (http://www.vintagemx.us/cgi-bin/swapmeet.cgi)
Rickman Zundapp 125 frame, swingarm, rims with no hubs, shocks. All rusty(can send pics). Frame is useable, straight but the finish isn't the best.I am in New Jersey. Going to Mid Ohio. Can deliver for free, why not going there anyways, or come get it here. I don't want much for this stuff. Maybee you could buy me lunch? Or just a cup of coffee. I really don't care, just want this stuff gone and to a good home, would hate to scrap it. Let me know if interested. I must put a price in so here goes $20.00 OBO
Timothy Lavance
Brick, NJ
Email
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Firko i have a Rickman frame in the elegator swamp, Love Bindy
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http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=3103.0
refresher from ;May 2008 8)
The Rickman Micro Metisse is one of the cheapest ways of getting into the "pukka" Metisse/Cheney market. They're a beautifully built little jewell that are as light as a feather and handle like they're on rails. They have Ceriani forks standard, great lightweight hubs and are hand made from Reynolds 531 tubing. They came with Zundapp, Hodaka and a few with AT1 Yamaha engines but the frame cradle is plenty big enough for all sorts of engine swaps as Coffs Harbour Donnie and the TM Suzuki powered "Sickman" and Alan Jones Honda SL125 engined "Ugly Betty" testify. The legendary John Boag races a Zundapp version and swears it's the best handling vintage bike he's got. Bare and rolling frames are always on US eBay for chicken feed. I tried to post photos of the Sickman and Ugly Betty and the URL of this eBay Rickman frame( 350063930741 ) but got the dreaded error message.
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i just sold a bsa victor -one of the bikes i brought in from the usa.have sold running bike for 3000.oo.the owner has asked us to turn it into a mx bike,so it has been stripped,and excess metal removed bits added to it,rickman matisse seat,sidecovers,mudguards(we have access to moulds)rewired it,new battery and mount,have seat made for seat base,new tyres,tubes,handle bars,grips,cables-all made,levers,perches,etcpaint it and it will owe around 5600 including the bike would be cheaper if you did the work your self but hey the new owner is 77 and we will have to start it for him.get a cheaper base bike and you could build it even cheaper.i think we cut out about 25 kg of crap out of it this includes old seat gauges,headlight etc