Author Topic: budget bikes?  (Read 64108 times)

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mainline

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budget bikes?
« on: May 24, 2009, 06:15:04 pm »
I haven't asked a stupid question for a while so I thought I'd break the drought.

I've been reading and re-reading the latest Classic Dirt Bike article on the two BSA's that Andy Roberton used in last year's British championship. 

http://www.classicdirtbike.co.uk/preview10-1.htm



Now these two bikes are obviously beautiful pieces of machinery and have that classic MX aesthetic, but are also well and truly beyond my means in terms of cost (Cheney framed, heaps of good bits engine-wise)and the complexity of maintenance for someone like me. Nevertheless they've got me thinking.....

So my question is, what would be a really good choice of bike in this era, based on initial cost/availability and reliability? or am I kidding myself and there is no such bike?

...be gentle...


Offline Marc.com

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Re: budget bikes?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2009, 11:22:45 am »
Don't give up the idea of building one on a budget, troll about, get some contacts. Ask questions at auctions (like do you have any wheels).

I just picked up Rickman Mk3 chassis for AUD 1600, B44 motor for about a grand. The frame came with nice betor forks and shocks. The guy with the chassis put me on to a set of Rickman wheels for $300 and I had mint set of body work that I got a year ago for $500. So have $3500 in it.

So it doesn't really have to be screamingly expensive.... but if you want to win a national championship....then you need a Cheney.  ;D







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Offline jimg1au

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Re: budget bikes?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2009, 11:31:35 am »
i am building 1 on a budget as well
1955 a10 swing arm bsa frame
ossa alloy front end
dirt track seat and mudguard
i could use my ariel 350&burman box or buy something else
i will buy full width bultaco wheels
all to be 1965 leagle

Offline Marc.com

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Re: budget bikes?
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2009, 11:46:48 am »
1955 a10 swing arm bsa frame

Yeah don't discount the stock frames, they are heavy but quite OK for a racer, B44 is good starting point, I picked up decent one with nice motor for 2 grand. Doesn't handle particularly worse than my pre 75 bikes. 
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firko

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Re: budget bikes?
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2009, 01:06:04 pm »
My favourite subject...Budget bikes.
Pre'65 can be as expensive or cheap as you want it to be. The size of your wallet and the boundaries of your imagination being the guiding forces. I know I use the example of my old mate Jonesy a bit much but he's such a contradiction when it comes to his philosophy on building bikes, using his experience is a good starter.
At the top of the pile you could build a shiny and rare ESO unit construction Metisse like Als famous Black Betty using the best parts money can buy and you wouldn't have much change left from 20k, that's if you could find one of the rare engines. His other big buck item is a genuine 1959 WORKS GP Monark 500 he's having built in Sweden that is costing who knows how much.
At the other end of the scale are his Sprite framed projects using $100 eBay frames and components.

While Metisse, Cheney, Mead, Puissant, Wasp, Hindall and other pre 65 legit aftermarket frames are big dollars no matter where you find them, the Frank Hipkin built Sprite frame has slipped through to the keeper with not many people picking up on the fact that they're pre 65 legal. The frames were produced from around 1964 to around 1973 and marketed as Sprite in the UK, American Eagle in the USA, BVM in Belgium and Alron here in Australia. They came with a variety of engines including Triumph,Villiers/Greeves, Maico, Husky, OSSA, Kawasaki 250 and their own Husky copy engine. Most of the engine applications place them in pre'70 or pre 75 but with a bit of thought a pre 65 bike could be created using a Sprite/American Eagle roller like Alans shown below. They're quality items built from Reynolds 531 tubing and many are nickel plated.
Below is Jonesys American Eagle (Sprite) frame as bought on eBay for $300 odd.


Engines: As you can see, the Sprite frame has a rather large engine cradle that will accept a number of unit construction motors. The most logical as they actually used the motor in production is the Villiers engine. Engines from Greeves and AJS Stormers come up on eBay for around $1000 for a runner fairly often. If you want to stick to a 2 stroke, an early 360 Husky engine might be fun or, you can do what I'm planning and use a Maico 250 square barrel engine fitted with earlier alloy oval barrels.I was planning to use a 360 engine but I've been told the 360 oval didn't come out until 1965...damn it!
The Sprite frame will easily take a unit 500 Triumph T100 motor or BSA B44 engines or, if a tight budget is guiding your build plans, what about a BSA B44 350 engine? I'm not so certain that bigger unit twins like 650 Truimph or BSA A65 will fit the Sprite but a tape measure will answer that question when you're ready.

Forks/Wheels It's desirable to try and get a roller like above but if you can only find a frame, there are plenty of suspension choices. The bikes come with quality Ceriani copy REH forks and similar units can be often found for $100 or less. Betor or ridgey didge Ceriani forks are also easy to find for varying prices, the Betors being the cheaper and easier to find alternative as they came on a large number of makes and models for a number of years. CZ forks are also legal and are very good but are becoming more expensive in recent time. CZ magnesium hubs are also desirable but once again, they're becoming more expensive as supply thins out. REH conical hubs come up fairly regularly as do the almost identical Rickman 5 1/2" hubs from Rickman Zundapps or Rickman Montys. I've built up a stash of these hubs hubs and usually pay around $50 each on eBay.

As is the rule when building any special, get to know the class rules you're building for and study intently what can and can't be used. Taste is important so try and keep the bike looking pre 65. The standard Sprite tank and seat combo look the part but usable fibreglass tanks are getting harder to find. Aftermarket alloy tanks from Wassel, Lyta/HiPoint and other manufacturers often come up but the prices have spiralled in recent times into the 500 buck range for some dent free items.

The Sprite is only one of the cheap entry level pre 65 options. There are more like the Bultaco M11 Metisse and stock frames Brit machinery that we can look into if anyone wants to go further into this subject. Like I've writen on another thread, the pre 65 class has been avoided by many who are interested because of the percieved high costs but with a bit of lateral thinking a low budget but reasonably competitive machine can be built.
bELOW, THE 100 buck American Eagle Kawasaki frame that'll be the basis for my pre 65 Sprite Maico.

There's a good example of a pre 65 Sprite Villiers in issue 36 of VMX, page 32/33.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 01:12:29 pm by firko »

mainline

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Re: budget bikes?
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2009, 09:49:42 pm »
Quote
but if you want to win a national championship....then you need a Cheney. 
I'd also need someone else to ride it :)


thanks for the info guys, as Firko mentioned I'd thought this stuff was beyond my means but maybe not. I'm thinking a fair bit more research is going to be necessary so any literature recommendations would be welcome.

I was talking to Rusty from the HSB Institute for Speed and Spark Plug Development this arvo and he also mentioned the early Huskies. I had it in mind that the British 4 strokes were my only option. Not that this is a bad thing, but in terms of simplicity the two stroke is more within my capabilities.

I'll have to re-read some of the replies and digest, so there'll be more questions to come.


In the meantime, maybe Firko could explain what that deformed Trappist monk is doing on his patio.

Offline Marc.com

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Re: budget bikes?
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2009, 10:26:39 pm »
 the pre 65 class has been avoided by many who are interested because of the perceived high costs but with a bit of lateral thinking a low budget but reasonably competitive machine can be built.
[/quote]

I mean to hell with pre 65, build a pre 70 that will still run with the pre 75 bikes and you get more seat time.

Rather than wringing your hands over whether the 64 clanker had chrome guards or not. B44 will run with anything up to 1975, John Banks still had the legs in GPs up until the RH came along.
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firko

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Re: budget bikes?
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2009, 11:12:13 pm »
Quote
I mean to hell with pre 65, build a pre 70 that will still run with the pre 75 bikes and you get more seat time
MarcThe whole point of the exercise is that the pre 70 class is in compartivly good order with any number of available bikes from a DT1 right through the spectrum to a B44 still available and competing in strong fields. At the same time the pre 65 class is stagnant because many folks think its beyond their knowledge or financial situation. I'm trying to show that you don't need a bottomless money pit or be an anal retentive to enjoy the class. Nearly every time the pre 65 class is mentioned it's about high zoot Metisse or Cheney bling which the average bloke finds out of his financial reach. I'm attempting to show that you can build a comparitively cheap and competitive pre 65 bike. 
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 10:09:39 am by firko »

clutchslip

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Re: budget bikes?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2009, 02:13:47 am »

Personally I like Firko's inventiveness around the Sprite frame and it sounds like Mainline is heading towards a two stroke, but the humble BSA B33 complete with iron engine would make an excellent basis for a cheapy. OK, so the frames are getting a little more difficult to come by as more and more people convert them and the B31 version for DBD Gold Star replicas (never in the history of motorycling have so many wanted a bike that so few could actually afford at the time), but a regular B series frame with decent forks and an iron-topped B33 engine, (rebuilt with Gold Star cams) could form the basis for a cheap, fun bike, perhaps more representative of what the average scrambler was riding back then.

Offline Marc.com

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Re: budget bikes?
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2009, 12:21:51 pm »
Quote
I'm trying to show that you don't need a bottomless money pit or be an anal retentive to enjoy the class. Nearly every time the pre 65 class is mentioned it's about high zoot Metisse or Cheney bling which the average bloke finds out of his financial reach. I'm attempting to show that you can build a comparitively cheap and competitive pre 65 bike. 

Fair enough Mark, I guess my point was that the pre 65 will die out if it is not affordable, people will just find another class. Funny though price points can be strange things, 50/60s road racing has taken off over the last few years on the back of having mega dollar sponsored Manx reps on the line and some of the best riders going. All you need is a lazy 60 grand, which a lot of people have in VMX bikes.

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Offline VMX247

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Re: budget bikes?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2009, 02:01:12 pm »
Quote
I'm trying to show that you don't need a bottomless money pit or be an anal retentive to enjoy the class. Nearly every time the pre 65 class is mentioned it's about high zoot Metisse or Cheney bling which the average bloke finds out of his financial reach. I'm attempting to show that you can build a comparitively cheap and competitive pre 65 bike. 
Fair enough Mark, I guess my point was that the pre 65 will die out if it is not affordable, people will just find another class. Funny though price points can be strange things, 50/60s road racing has taken off over the last few years on the back of having mega dollar sponsored Manx reps on the line and some of the best riders going. All you need is a lazy 60 grand, which a lot of people have in VMX bikes.



Marc 
In my opinion you make it as affordable as you like and as the budget stretches. I wish I knew lots of people in VMX with a lazy 60k   ;)  ;D. We might top 25k if we sold all our bikes.
Preserving pre 65 era to keep it racing and on the dirt is what the main focus should be about.  8)
Pre 75 will one day also come under threat as our era of VMXer's become older,like the pre65 riders.
Its inevitable and sad that pre 75 will eventually head down the same road.  :'(
I see it happening with the clubs that have a wider range off class's available.
man is his own worst enemy.  :-X
cheers


« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 02:43:55 pm by VMX247 »
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Offline Marc.com

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Re: budget bikes?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2009, 02:51:53 pm »
I agree pre 75 is heading the same way, the value of the bikes increases and the riders get older and they become talking points in sheds stuffed full of toys. Same way as when you were a boy there were always neighbors with sheds stuffed full of British race bikes and old Japanese factory bikes (helps when your boy hood neighbor is Rod Coleman) ;)
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Offline Bamford#69

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Re: budget bikes?
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2009, 11:54:58 am »
Hi
I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this but the picture of the fantastic Cheney BSA pair got me reading again , This is from MotorCycle, UK , Feb 1966, press release of Cheneys new bike .
I can't find any photos of B44 Cheneys before this

Offline Bamford#69

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Re: budget bikes?
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2009, 12:12:33 pm »
Hi,
The question is, if this is his new bike in Feb 1966, why does the photo of the "Pre65" Cheney look so different, if Cheney had built that fantastic looking bike in 1964, why did they "go backwards" in 1966.
Can anyone find a Magazine article to support the "Pre65" Cheney BSA unit single, we can read about the exploits of Cheneys factory rider on the BSA Goldstars even up to feb 1966 .
Over to you Mark.
 
 

Offline VMX247

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Re: budget bikes?
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2009, 12:14:35 pm »
Thanks for the articles,but I can't read it -you may have to put them onto photobucket or flickr.
Looking forward to a good read,as the only good bit of info I have is from Ray Ryan's book 30years of dirtbikes.oh and what I'm told on here  ;)  ;D
cheers
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