budget bikes?

[firko]

Mk3A could be considered follow on model. As I have mentioned earlier my only concern with the B44 is how it could dominate the class given

Yeah Marc, the Mk3a is a flow on and should be (and is) legal. I'm only mentioning it to make a point that it isn't as cut and dried as Mr Bamford would have us believe. He owns a very nice Mk3a Triumph 650 unit Metisse and if someone with his same sense of right and wrong was ruling over the pre 65 class, his bike would be declared ineligible based purely on Mr Bamfords own philosophy.

As far as the B44s I have to agree with you Marc. The little Beeza engine can be turned into a 50hp monster with a bit of engineering nouse. I've seen inside a very, very trick road race B40 engine built by one of our Klub Kevlar braniacs and it's amazing. It's got a modified Godden Speedway crankshaft, Carillo rod, Venolia short shirt piston made for a current Benelli, titanium valves and hand made titanium rockers and valve springs. The engine has a 5 speed Quaife box, kevlar NEB speedway clutch with a titanium basket and belt drive. The owner of the engine has it in a Rickman CR frame for road racing but has often threatened to fit the CCM 3 speed trans he has in the cupboard and fit it to his Mk3 Metisse MX frame. It's only 350cc but would whoop most 500 MXers in pre 65. It's not so fair when compared to some bloke racing an old Royal Enfield or Greeves but that's the way the racing cookie crumbles. There's no way to prevent internals being modified to the nth degree. What would prevent someone doing similar stuff to a Triumph or (horror of horrors, an Enfield India)? As we've previously established you can run a 750cc top end oand as much internal gadgetry as you can get in there on your Trumpy as long as the externals are largely unchanged.

Thankfully the old adage that the slower the rider, the faster his bike must be rings true. Most of the fast blokes race fairly rudimentary setups. The bling bikes are mostly show queens or mid packers so it all evens out on the day.

[Marc.com]

There is a fairly well beaten path that dates from the 1960s to B44 domination that involves NEB 3 speed, Carillo rod, 500cc piston, new clutch and methanol.

The top 4 bikes in the UK were running similar set ups in Cheney chassis.

50hp I guess is possible, but importantly you can build a bike at just a touch over 100 kilos which is what really makes the difference.

[mainline]

when you're referring to a B44 does this mean a BSA 44x?

if so why wouldn't the bike in this pic be legal for pre65 (if my understanding is correct and it isn't legal ) if it was "released to the public at the Earls Court show in 1964"

if it is  Pre65 legal, ignore me and carry on.

[matcho mick]

2 words, round barrell

[LWC82PE]

In 1964 Jeff Smith won the world championship on a hybrid C15/B40 of around 440cc or a bit more. In November 64 there was a prototype B44GP built based on Jeffs factory hybrid bike. These went into production part way through 1965 and were classed as 66 models. In 65 Jeff won the world championship for a second time on a modifed production B44GP. After securing the 65 world 500cc championship part way though 65, he was told to ride a stock B44GP just like the public for good PR. Production of the GP stoped in 67.

That information is from various BSA books and i also have engine and frame numbers of 99% of all BSA's built. under the 64 and 65 models list there is no B44. B44's are only listed under the 66 and 67 model years.

So in my opinion i feel no B44's should be allowed in PRE 65 and i dont think they should be classed as a follow on model as the engines are totally different and not much at all interchanges between the 350 and 441cc bikes.

if so why wouldn't the bike in this pic be legal for pre65 (if my understanding is correct and it isn't legal ) if it was "released to the public at the Earls Court show in 1964"

Depends or where the information is from. i have info that in November 64 a prototype was shown at the earls court show. This was what the first B44 model (1965 model) was going to be like. The 65 model only went into production just after the show and then into 1965.

even if the public could buy one in November 64, it is still this is only a '65 model'. You need a 64 model to be in pre 65. just like you can have up to 1974 models in pre 75 and up to 1984 models in pre 85.

as there was no 1964 model B44 i dont think there is an argument.

Bottom line is there was NO production model 1964 B44's There were only the works/protoype/special C15/B40's that Jeff Smith etc rode

im guessing the 65 & 66 matchless is allowed as follow on as the engines are the same as 64? the B44 engine was new for during 65 for the 66 model, so i dont think anyone can claim its a follow on of a 64 B40 but it does seem unfair to allow 65 AND 66 matcheless in pre 65.

[VMX247]

Depends or where the information is from. i have info that in November 64 a prototype was shown at the earls court show. This was what the first B44 model (1965 model) was going to be like. The 65 model only went into production just after the show and then into 1965.

even if the public could buy one in November 65, it is still this is only a 65 model. You need a 64 model to be in pre 65. just like you can have up to 1974 models in pre 75 and up to 1984 models in pre 85.

as there was no 1964 model B44 i dont think there is an argument.

Bottom line is there was NO production model 1964 B44's There were only the works/protoype/special C15/B40's that Jeff Smith etc rode

Now that I can understand ---good explanation------Hope its the truth at last  cheers

[Marc.com]

as there was no 1964 model B44 i dont think there is an argument.

Now that I can understand ---good explanation------Hope its the truth at last  cheers

you could argue that the 65 B44 was a follow on from the Earles Court show model and therefore represents what was available to ride at time. I mean there is only a couple of months in it.

Hell it was probably 1971 by the time it actually made it to NZ.

[LWC82PE]

Have a read of VMX issue number 11, its all in there and i have it in other books too.


there was no 1965 model B44 though. Only 66 and 67 model B44's. i Cant find any proof of a 1965 model B44 or any engine/frame numbers for a 1965 model. From all i have found out there was only 2 GP models, 66 and 67 and these were built from 1965 to 1967

if someone can show me engine/frame numbers for a 65 model then i would sure like to know.

[Marc.com]

All this talk of 50 HP & 100kgs you still gotta race the forking things not just ride them , i would imagine its a bit harder than tapping a keyboard 

too true Bill better to race em than ridem as they say in Whanga

[firko]

Hope its the truth at last

There's never been any doubt as to when the B44 was released Alison. The B44 was definitely born in 1965. The debate is purely a hypothetical argument as to whether it should be allowed to race in pre 65 with other 65 and 66 models.

[firko]

Although it's a pre 75 frame, here's a bargain for the budding special builder, a late Rickman Zundapp frame, complete with 35mm Cerianis forks. I'd bid except I've already got two and...most importantly, it's on the wrong side of the country to ship cheaply. Still, if the price stays low it'll still be a good deal. The forks alone are worth a couple of hundred!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Rickman-125-Z-Motorcycle-Frame-1972_W0QQitemZ220439379179QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item335335fceb&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1171%7C240%3A1318

[mainline]

well, so much for waiting a while before starting a new project.

Having said that I'm just collecting parts at the moment, but as of today I am the proud owner of a very schmick (ie. looks like original paint, with a touch of surface rust here and there, all threads intact, all brackets pretty much perfect) 1967? BSA B40 frame.

I know it's not exotica, but for $70 inc swingarm, I thought it was pretty good buying.


May someone (I'm an atheist) have mercy on my soul

[holeshot buddy]

gee paul wouldnt he take 50 bucks for it
shoulda  sent me over

[firko]

Cool Paul. Now comes the fun part of finding all the bits.

[mainline]

I'm not much of a haggler Rusty, I couldn't even get him down to $65