OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Competition => Topic started by: All Things 414 on April 15, 2010, 05:52:13 pm
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If (and only if), the Nationals were broken into seperate groups (something like the ones described in the poll), what would float your boat?
For me it'd have to be Evo and later.... ;)
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Hey 414 we are at 100% close the poll quick
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I'm tryin'......I'm tryin'...... :D
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Both-4 bikes Pre 78--2 bikes EVO
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writing Hypothetically- cause that's what you can get away with. :-\
What happens if the vmx rider was a Victorian and Nats are Qld pre85 April and WA pre75 September ? Or who gives two hoots cause he's the small majority.
Riders will drop one,due to cost..
eg:run pre 85 at one Qld track and then next weekend pre75 at another Qld track..One week on pure VMX :P
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I reckon I would run a pre '80 sidecar no matter where it was run.
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writing Hypothetically- cause that's what you can get away with. :-\
What happens if the vmx rider was a Victorian and Nats are Qld pre85 April and WA pre75 September ? Or who gives two hoots cause he's the small majority.
Riders will drop one,due to cost..
eg:run pre 85 at one Qld track and then next weekend pre75 at another Qld track..One week on pure VMX :P
Would have to agree with you. Most sensible way to do it without crowding one weekend. Would mean interstaters who wanted to run in both would have to take a longer holiday. But does raise the costs of thethose who do compete, and a lot of those only compete for the fun of it
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Hang on a minute, do I undersatand this right you want to split it into 2 events . Are you forken insane ... you have just doubled your entry fees ???
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Hang on a minute, do I undersatand this right you want to split it into 2 events . Are you forken insane ... you have just doubled your entry fees ???
I think they call it revenue raiser ;D
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Hang on a minute, do I undersatand this right you want to split it into 2 events . Are you forken insane ... you have just doubled your entry fees ???
Nobody's saying you have to ride in both.........
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I'd be keen on both, but if I could only make it to one, then the pre-78 event would take priority.
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Both, time and money permitting.
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Yep, those old pre '78 classes sure are dead and buried. Buggered if I know why we put up with 'em. :P
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Well put Firko
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Another one for pre-78
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Yep, those old pre '78 classes sure are dead and buried. Buggered if I know why we put up with 'em. :P
We agree on something.....
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Does that mean more pre 78 stuff on the market yeeehaaa!!!
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The time is now for all you Pre90 enthusiasts. Jump aboard & lobby for your club to run the 2011 Nats--EVO ,Pre85 ,Pre90.
No class yet??--make it happen.More motos,more laps,age splits means more rides per bike.It's all good.
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Pre 78 for me :)
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pre 78 here two
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I retried from racing in 79, so pre 78 to pre65 is the era for me.
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anyone want to re-vote...
Will it all fadeout in 3 years time,when we are all burnt out from pushing barrows.
Will the cost to travel be too much ?
Is the cost too much for you already ?
Is the VMX calender getting flooded with CD7,HBBB,pre90,Anniversaries,OS events ? :-X
I have changed my vote and believe we need to stay together for the strength of the sport.
Make it a long weekend.
cheers
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Hi,
Great opportunity for EVO , pre85, pre 90 to run a separate Title at a track that suits their bikes
Imagine having the Nats without all the pre 75/78 "Old Bastards" whinging about everything ,
Modern Vintage MX Clubs and Classic Vintage MX Clubs will both benefit from an amicable separation
Pre 75/78 for me thanks
Michael Bamford.
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ah sh..t ...now I feel guilty for not supporting the pre75..
I'm really all for anything, as long as it preserves VMX. ;D
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Shame, shame, shame Ali and Steve.....pre 78 > for me, and depending where the "post vintage" bikes are.
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I would ride them both if they weren't both too far to travel otherwise i'd ride the closer event one year and do the other the next.
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That is right walter, at the nationals this year l had the pleasure in viewing a late model sidecar, to my memory the engine was a Jawa watercool 2 stroke l think about 700 or 800 cubes, a work of art, now if l had my way, l would be promoting those models into the pre 90 era classes.
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well l didn`t know that, i must say a very exciting machine
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Yes it was very trick I think it was worth about $ 24000.00
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It was actually a Jawa 4 stroke and the engine alone owes him 15K
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i think it should be run together on a 3 day weekend
on a track like eg; bullahdela at crawford river run pre78 on grass track
and post 78 on modern type track
say frid sat pre 78 and sat sun post 78
you could run scrutineering and practice for post 78 on sat and race sunday
and scrutineering and practice for pre78 on friday and race saturday
with it split there would be heaps of time to run all classes
that would be a perfect venue i am sure there are others as well
just my 2 bobs worth ;)
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due to the size of the event, why do we need a hard and fast rule, MA should allow the event to be split to suit the clubs running it, so you can run pre 78 down, pre 78 up or the whole lot, then you can run titles where they will gather the most competitors, second you could run them bi anually, pre78 down one year, pre78 up the following and then a combined event for the third year over the easter weekend somewhere, when the event is split you could add more age group events and then change it up for the combined event. Why cant clubs choose even to run age groups in say just pre 85 or just evo and not this singular pre 75 mentality, clubs could then promote different eras for their event
Cheers Trev
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When club is running a vintage meeting they can add classes, as long as they stick to the eligiblty ruling for vintage. Bur when it comes to a National meeting its a different ball gamw.
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True, but flexability is the key, I only know too well what is required for a Nationals event and my thoughts are just that, it's not about how the way they been run in the past or how the MOM's are written but how do we get clubs more atune to wanting to run the event, we have got to make clubs WANT to run the Nationals and allow some flexability.
Cheers Trev
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Am I missing some thing
"
18.13 AUSTRALIAN classic
MOTOCROSS and dirt track
CHAMPIONSHIPs
18.13.1.1 The Championships will be conducted
as single meetings at a venue selected
by the Classic Motocross and Dirt Track
Commission.
18.13.1.2 Evolution class and Pre 85 may be run as
part of the Australian Classic Motocross
Championship or independently."
What does 18.13.1.2 mean,
Is it MA that pick the club thats only willing to do both.
Noel
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i wouldn`t think so, its up to a club to put in a proposal to host the national meetings, and that should go to the selection board to deside wheather they are capable in running the event and also if the track will be suitible to run an event of this size.
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Believe pre75 has age races to keep the grid numbers up.
With respect, the age group classifications ip pre '75 had nothing whatsoever to do with " keeping the grid numbers up".
It was introduced at the very first official vintage meeting at Amaroo Park in 1988 as a means to create some sort of parity amongst riders and therefore attract riders who had left the sport because they had become older and no longer wished to race with younger, more radical riders. If one aspect can be acknowledged as the reason for vintage racings meteoric success in the late eighties to late nineties it'd be age group racing.
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It's not for me to say, and I'm only looking from an outsiders point of view, so please dont put out a contract and send the hit-men of vmx to hunt me down.
Nationals are Nationals.
But the vastness of Australia doesnt allow its self to be 'travel' friendly so a track that can cater for 'all eras' and 'all ages' is always going to be difficult to find (I'm not saying none exist) so I look at different ways to accommodate all bikes and riders.
At present the 'Nationals' are held once yearly and held at different venues. That format works, and should be kept. But there could be a twist to the 'classes' format. At the moment all 'class eras' race on the same track and same weekend which makes for a very big (extended) meeting.
My 'outside' view is that the 'Nationals' could be (should be) still held every year but bi-yearly for the different 'class eras'. In other words, the Pre60, Pre65, Pre70 and Pre75 classes (including sidecars) plus 'age group races' could be raced the first year on a track that is "suitable" for those eras. The following year the 'Nationals' would be held for the Pre78, Evo, Pre85 and (when/if) Pre90 classes, on a track more suited to those bikes.
This still means that the 'Nationals' are held every year (albeit, bi-annually in reguards to classes) with more time to run the races (or less time to be away from home) on tracks that could show case the bikes in there respective eras.
My understanding of most VMXers, is that they have more than one era of bikes in their stables so they can still ride each year at the 'Nationals' and if they dont have bikes for both years then what a great excuse to get another bike ;)
With certain 'eras' only getting to race bi-annually it could bring out more bikes, make the winning of trophies even more special because the trophy is held for two years and if a racer is less fortunate with finances and only has the one bike then he/she is more likely to go to the 'Nationals' every second year rather than every year.
Anyway, I'll keep looking over my shoulder for those hit-men, at least until Nathan stirs it up somewhere else ;) ;D
Alot of this was talked about in here...
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=11134.0
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Age group classes should a commodate all classes. This my opinion about cut off dates for classes.
pre 90 to 85 models
pre 85 to 80 models
pre 80 to 77 models
scratch races for 125, 250, over 300
all powers
age classes.
sidecars
2nd national vintage meetings
pre 77 to 73 models
pre 73 to 68 models
pre68 to 64 models
scratch races for 125, 250, over 300.
pre 64 scratch all powers
age classes
sidecars.
Delete 4 stroke only classes, you don`t need it, years ago they all raced together.
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and has worked well-should it be expanded for 85's now?
Alison, I reckon it's imperative that it be introduced to the pre 90 and older divisions at Naitional level. I think it may have the same effect that it had with the pre '75 division in '88 by giving a degree of parity to older racers who are hesitent to race against younger riders. I personally know of a number of former pre '75 racers aged in their fifties who would like to race the more physically forgiving Evo/Pre 85 bikes but are put off by having to race against younger/faster/fitter/more agressive younger racers. By giving them the age group option they can compete with age peers yet if they feel confident with their ability can also race in the open capacity classes. It's a win/win situation. As someone who's been competing, reporting and observing observing VMX for over twenty years I'm positive that the sports downturn from the heady days of the sports boom times can be pointed directly towards the 'dumbing down' of the age group classings.
On DJs well thought out suggestion that another option would be to run bi-yearly has some merit. One side benefit may be that it might encourage pre 85/Evo racers to build/buy a pre '75/78 bike and visa versa to enable them to still have their yearly Nationals experience, thereby strengthening the numbers of both factions. This could spill over to state series and club level encouraging racers to compete in both eras purely because they now had the bikes to do so.
The bi-yearly idea does have some problems connected with those guys who don't wish to cross pollinate both era events having to wait two years to experience their championship, risking the chance of them losing a bit of interest. Perhaps one way of countering that would be to promote a special "big club day" style meeting specifically catering to the division experiencing their off year. If that years Nats is for the Evo/Pre 90 brigage, a big pre '78 event could be held at something like the Crawford River Classic or a new "Condo style" meeting catering purely to the division without a Nats that particular year.
I'd personally still like to see both events held in the same year but reckon Dons theory deserves some consideration and discussion.
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You won`t get to any late 40 to 50 year olds race pre 90 , so l would use the age class for those era anyway.
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I would like to see Evo and pre 85 Nationals with age groups, or at least a over 35's race. To many young guns trying to get a title.
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I personally am looking forward to age groups coming into pre '78, Evo and pre '85 at least.
There is a real mixture of young and older riders particually in Evo and Pre '85 and it would be fairer for the guys over 40.
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Delete 4 stroke only classes, you don`t need it, years ago they all raced together.
Yes. I struggle to stay awake on the grid when they're the race before mine....... :P
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Age group classes should a commodate all classes. This my opinion about cut off dates for classes.
pre 90 to 85 models
pre 85 to 80 models
pre 80 to 77 models
scratch races for 125, 250, over 300
all powers
age classes.
sidecars
2nd national vintage meetings
pre 77 to 73 models
pre 73 to 68 models
pre68 to 64 models
scratch races for 125, 250, over 300.
pre 64 scratch all powers
age classes
sidecars.
Delete 4 stroke only classes, you don`t need it, years ago they all raced together.
This is your second attempt and it really still doesn't make much sense.
To start with you are trying to re invent the wheel which just won't happen (e.g. pre 73 to 68 wtf?)
And to delete four stroke classes? Why? Because you don't have one? If they get healthy fields, why not?
The best way to go about it is to draw a line between pre78 and EVO (not pre 80) and split in two. Then there can be age classes for everyone. Nationals at Coffs up to pre 78...perfect. Nationals for evo, pre 85 and even pre 90 and a couple of age groups as well ( under 45 and over 45 for e.g.).
If there aren't enough events in the later model bikes then you could have support classes to be determined by club running them (e.g. moderns, pre 78, pre 75, even ...gulp....sidecars).
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I cannot agree with Firko's coments re age groups more - exactly where I am now. I want to race with similar old farts - give the sheep station guys and young kids a miss.
However - one question - lets say you were to have a pre 78 Nats this year and a BIG meet for the pre 85 (90's) same year - isn't that really the same thing as 2 Nats meetings. If you were to try and accommodate how much more effort just to make the two Nats meetings per year?
Rossco
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Age group classes are a must at all levels, At club level events specially us with 6 rounds plus helping and running a vinduro meeting it become to must, back in the olds and l always refer to that era, the colac motorcycle club would run one round of the western centre championship meetings per year, the western centre championship meetings was made up of 6 rounds at 6 different tracks. In todays standard if clubs here in victoria got together and worked together and run one or two of there best tracks over a calender year then the 2 National meetings would fit into that calender year.
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If you were to try and accommodate how much more effort just to make the two Nats meetings per year?
Ross, perhaps you missed the key words...."Big Club Day". By holding the event as a club day the big permit and licence fees and strict championship style official wants and demands are largely bypassed. In the past the big club day format has seen the Condoblin Greybeards event become an event even bigger in scale than the Nats, attracting well over 200 entries in the events bigger years. Heavens Crawford River Classic and other big events in Victoria and Queensland have shown that these type of meetings are more than viable.
Let's not get too sidetracked from the main point however, the splitting of the pre '75 and post '75 eras and the reintroduction of capacity age groups in both eras. The "big club day" and bi yearly Nats are good discussion points but should be discussed after MA makes the decision on the split proposal.
This is your second attempt and it really still doesn't make much sense
Sorry Dave, I'm with Brad on this one. Whatever you're trying to put accross doesn't make a lot of sense. Why remove the 4 stroke class? Just because historically they all rode together means diddley squat in vintage racing. The class was introduced in the very beginning during an era when the two stroke reigned supreme to give people to experience the sound of a stroker and offer another cheaper entry machine to the sport by utilising the myriad of XL Hondas that were laying dormant. From day one the class has been successful so whay change something thats worked fine for 20 years? Ditto your mystifying revamp on the era cutoffs. Pre 1980 to replace Evo? Why remove class that's proven to be popular and in no need of changing? A pre 68 class was trialed for two years and proved to be unpopular so why bring it up again? You have age classes stuck on the end of your program, so in your perfect world is there capacity age group racing or do you just want all in capacity age group races at the end of the day? It might be time to have a rethink Dave.
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Why?
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Brad and Firko are spot on, we dont need to mess with the class's just how the event needs to be run, I for one would have to think more consideration needs to be balanced to those running the event, after being envolved last year and having an understanding of the logistics and costs, a lot of stress is placed on those running the event to make sure of a profit, more races for seperate era's is the most likely, positive outcome for smaller clubs to have a go running the Nationals. the 2 club idea is worth more consideration.
Cheers trev
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AGE GROUP CLASSES, ALLPOWERS, FOR ETC\
UNDER 30 ALLPOWERS
30 TO 39 ALLPOWERS ETC, ETC,
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What does 18.13.1.2 mean,
Is it MA that pick the club thats only willing to do both.
Noel
Way I read it, a host club MUST run the older era bikes, and can choose to include or exclude the newer era.
But if you want to run newer era only, then you're (currently) poop-outta-luck.
Under the current system, it would seem that any club that puts in a half-way decent proposal to run an all-eras Nats, will always beat a club that wants to run 'older era only' Nationals.
I agree with what Worms and Firko have been saying.
Although, I honestly wonder how important the age group races (as opposed to age-group point scores) are nowdays? Really, there's very few young guys in VMX (I'm told that CDT is a different story, but we're talking about VMX here), and very few of them are crazy.
When you factor in the fast 'old bastards' ;D like Brad, Rusty and Boagy (etc etc), I wonder what's really gained, other than depleted fields?
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without major sponorship in 2009, the event would have run at a very close loss, even with 197 competitors. If we spilt the event are we all going to pay per class entry, not by how many machines you enter, say if either event pulls 130 competitors , so how do we make sure clubs are better off and not solely reliaing on sponorship monies, people jump up and down allready about entry fees, so are we all prepared to pay up to $50 more to host club for spilt events, taking on other support class's is not the go I think, I dont want to watch modern 4strokes doing laps at VMX event just so organizers can make ends meet.
Cheers Trev
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having an understanding of the logistics and costs, a lot of stress is placed on those running the event to make sure of a profit
Cheers trev
oops left lane exit -hijack
Does it have to be about making a big fat profit or just coming out even ?, as the host club would only run it every 8-10 yrs.Just another thought for the process.
Some days you can make more money on a wood raffle or a lamington drive ;D
cheers
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I'd Race at both event's, but would like to see age groups.
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all clubs are entitled to make a profit from such an event and should, because every club I know puts the money back into the club, but if you have clubs running the event at a loss it's hard to swing them and their members to do it again. Profit is not a bad word, just miss-understood.
cheers trev
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What does 18.13.1.2 mean,
Is it MA that pick the club thats only willing to do both.
Noel
Way I read it, a host club MUST run the older era bikes, and can choose to include or exclude the newer era.
But if you want to run newer era only, then you're (currently) poop-outta-luck.
Under the current system, it would seem that any club that puts in a half-way decent proposal to run an all-eras Nats, will always beat a club that wants to run 'older era only' Nationals.
I agree with what Worms and Firko have been saying.
Although, I honestly wonder how important the age group races (as opposed to age-group point scores) are nowdays? Really, there's very few young guys in VMX (I'm told that CDT is a different story, but we're talking about VMX here), and very few of them are crazy.
When you factor in the fast 'old bastards' ;D like Brad, Rusty and Boagy (etc etc), I wonder what's really gained, other than depleted fields?
Nathan there are plenty of younger guys racing VMX in Qld and at last years Nats and for that reason i support having age groups in pre 78, evo and pre 85.
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i for one agree John, i want to race guys my own age with the same fears, not the young guns and that's including my son, as much as i want him envolved in the sport the age groups would allow the older guys a greater feeling of achivement, I will still wind up racing you, Brad and Rusty and Squirt and get whipped.
cheers trev
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yep - same here - we have a fair share of our riders are young guns!
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Yeah, but my question is why is it bad to race the young guys?
If they're faster, then they're faster - same as blokes your own age.
If they're slower, then they're slower - and it gives you more to gloat about.
As someone who is neither fast, nor shockingly slow and neither old nor young, I really don't care who I'm racing against - and riding around the track by myself is one of the least enjoyable race scenarios I can think of. So I wonder why anyone would want to cull the fields, and reduce the chance of having someone to race against?
I fully understand the value in rider-age point-scores, but specific races seems a bit pointless to me.
Imagine that we had a decent VMX rider grading system.
Would you prefer to race against other guys of the same speed/ability (regardless of age),
or
Would you prefer to race against other guys of the same age-group (regardless of speed)?
Why?
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A bit of stereo typing. It stems from the moderns where so many young guys ride to win at any cost making big mistakes which usually includes taking out someone else. A state of mind when you don't have a mortgage or wife/kids and you bounce well. It doesn't really translate to vintage and I must say , there are some really untidy old boys out there as well.
I had a guy at the '09 nat's (in pre 70) literally throw his bike at me. His front wheel hit my shoulder. It was so ridiculous I felt it was on purpose.
But I still think age classes are a good thing. Gives an old boy a chance to win or place instead of an also ran.
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When age group racing was in regular use even at club days, most age group capacity races (except maybe 125) had full or nearly full grids, anybody who raced in NSW or Victoria during that period will back me up on that. The reason for that was that, besides the nostalgia/old bike thing, age group racing was the main attraction drawing riders out of their loungerooms and onto old bikes. Bring back regular age group racing, emphasize the fact to outsiders and potential newbies and I'll bet my gonads the riders will start coming back. I reckon you just might see a few of the missing racers return as well.
Imagine that we had a decent VMX rider grading system.
This old chestnut's been reappearing every few years since the very first vintage meeting and on face value, it's a damn fine initiative. Now, let's just find someone to actually collate the information and initiate the system. It's at this stage in the process where everyone becomes too busy to volunteer and the idea is shuffled back into the drawer until someone else has the same bright idea (for someone else to do, of course).
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I have'nt raced mx or dirttrack in competition since 1978 (enduro in early 80's) i ride plenty on hometrack and have thought about racing again(heaven etc) and i believe the age classes could be a deciding factor,i would also be all for the split as thats the era i grew up in,i also have evo bikes that i love riding but wouln't bother if i didn't race at the same meet,just have more connection with the pre 60-78 era(horse's for courses) and iam sure there would be a lot of others like me balancing on that decision,the other side to the coin is getting the next generation connected to old bike's to keep it going strong, :)
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We could try a system they use in the UK whereby they calculate the age/style of bike with the age of the rider and use that as a scoring ratio.
Then we could go back to two motos a day with all in. Now that sounds like fun.
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sounds complicated, Don't think i'd bother if i only got 2 rides for the day, big travel, big outlay,better off cuttin laps at home,
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GP riders only get two motos a day, but they have up to four hours of free practise to get their set-up right and then time training or qualifying to see who starts from where on the grid. They get plenty of time on the bike.
I reckon two all in motos of 40mins plus 2 laps will be plenty to sort the wheat from the chaff. The crowd would be well chuffed.
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There's no doubt the 40 min motos were fun and sorted the wood, but i dont know if they fit in with vintage bikes and vintage bodies
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Now, let's just find someone to actually collate the information and initiate the system.[/i]
agree If MA & SCB can get a grading committee for mx,no reason why vmx cant.
ah that reminds me some of our B graders need a gentle push into the A grade. ;D
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I reckon two all in motos of 40mins plus 2 laps will be plenty to sort the wheat from the chaff. The crowd would be well chuffed.
40 minute motos are great when you're 18 and full of vim and vigour but this is vintage racing not title meetings for teenage kiddies on their YZ-Fs. I doubt that many young riders could handle a 40 minute moto come to think of it, let alone an arthritic 60 year old. :o
This emphasises even more the need for age groups to cater for those among us who've aged a fair bit but still want to compete. I doubt that the thought of two 40 minute motos is going to attract too many riders over 40 years of age plus, how do you fit all of the various classes into a days racing using a 40 minute format?
The crowd, with respect would be bored shitless as well.
agree If MA & SCB can get a grading committee for mx,no reason why vmx cant.
Agreed, the fly in the ointment is that we tried for a number of years to implement a grading system and every time we called for ideas and suggestions at a meeting you can see the faces look down at the floor and the hands stay down when volunteers to form a grading committee were called for. It's all about comittment and dedication, a scarse comodity in vintageland where everybody wants to race and nobody wants the shitty jobs. It's all too hard and is quickly shuffelled under the carpet until the next time someone suggests it. Then the same old same old lack of committment starts up all over again........
In the AHRMA the Intermediate, Novice and Expert system is used where first time racers race in Intermediate and after a few meetings their results are collated and they're reassigned to Novice if they're shown to be of slowish standard, Expert if they're shown to be fast or if they're mid pack finishers they stay in Intermediate. The problem with this is that you get a fair degree of sandbagging from guys who don't want to race with the experts. I have an American mate who was a pro in the 70s/80s but he still rides in the Intermediate class after 20 years of vintage racing because that's where his mates are racing. He's not interested in riding 10/10ths any more but will occasionally pull out a barnstormer ride if he knows it won't be scored towards his upward reclassification. I don't know how he knows when to go fast and when not, he's never told me that little snippet but the point is, you'll always get sandbagging when you get an ability based system. In the end, no system is perfect, there's loopholes everywhere. Until something new can easily be implemented, the age based format is easiest to operate.
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Nathan - grading maybe the answer. We run grades in WA regardless of age - whether you are on a 125 or a 500 you are in the same speed/ability group - which is also where most of my old fart mates are and has us away from the faster A graders and those going hard - or who can go hard.
Part of the reason I like racing with my age/ability is I still get a chance for a place or a win. Yes they are few and far between but even if you split the young guys old guys in any given race besides the loose cannons you never get to see the front of the field. We might be slow but I still enjoy seeing the checkered flag first once in a while - in my grade and with my mates.
If I am asking too much to allow that to happen - then maybe my VMX time is over. But I would of thought we were now big enough to cater for everything we have been speaking about here.
Rossco
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I was taking the piss on the 40min moto thing but on the weight for age thing it's a goer, especially in the sidecars as two old blokes on a newer sidecar against two young fellas on an oldie verses a dad and son on a midaged outfit would be the goods.
As far as grading goes, I don't wont to throw cold water on it but it would be very hard to prevent sandbaggers as we don't ride week in and week out to give the judges a good look at us.
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So are you saying 3 classes with expert, intermediate and novice?
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With the advent of transponder timing perhaps a young genius could make a program to keep track of it all ( lap times on circuits on different bikes in classes etc...) and therefore take some pressure off volunteers to do it all. That could become a national database and grade everyone everywhere.
I'm thinking on the run here.....
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So are you saying 3 classes with expert, intermediate and novice?
Yeah Brad. Three classes but spread over the capacities you'd still have the same number of races as you would with three age groups.
It's ironic that in about 1995 Dick Mann wrote and asked me how our age group system worked as he was thinking along those same lines for the AHRMA. Before long they'd introduced an age group system not unlike ours and it's still in use today. I think we're jumping ahead too far here though. The Nats split is the main topic while the reintroducing of capacity age groups is the second point to be addressed. Changing the system further by dropping age groups and introducing a grading system is a big move and should be debated further down the line, not now.
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grading is way out there, i for one dont want to be graded and labeled A,B,C,D or Z grade, Age groups are the way to go!
if we split the era's and introduce age groups for all class's with 10 min moto's not only will we all get more bike time, the organizing club has an easier time of it.
Cheers Trev
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Worms, yes but why?
Firko, Age racing was important in the early days, no doubt about that. Is it still important for VMX in 2010? If so, why?
As I hinted, my gut feeling is that "age racing" has become a pseudonym for "riders of similar ability and ambition" - but it is actually neither of those things.
Edit: I'm not suggesting that rider grading is the solution/better. I'm trying to work out the appeal of age racing.
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Age groups are the way to go, that way the older guys don't have to race against loose unit young guys with little fear and no idea of pain! We all want to get home in one piece.
Also a lot of us over 40 guys are still competitive and feel we have a good chance of winning races against our own age group.
There can still be an all ages race for those that want to mix it with the young or old.
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Firko, Age racing was important in the early days, no doubt about that. Is it still important for VMX in 2010? If so, why?
I'm getting a real deja vu feeling here Nathan....we've been down this dusty road before and we didn't achieve any concensus back then either ;).I thought I'd given my reasoning for the need for age groups in my previous posts but at the risk of repeating myself, I feel that the same reasons that worked back in the beginning are even more valid today. As I've said in previous posts, I feel that age groups a major factor in attracting new blood to the sport because it creates a parity that is attractive to many older racers and I reckon anything that helps get more people back into the sport is a good thing.
I guess you aren't at that place where you see the sport through old guys eyes yet Nathan. Let's see what your attitude towards age groups is when you're 45 or 55.
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Amen, Mark, Wasn`t their an album out in the early day`s call thick as a brick. but some are to young to realise that.
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OOOh yes the old Jethro Tull album Thick as a Brick. That brings back some old memories (girls dancing topless in front of the camp fire at Lakeside)::) Darcy
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Wasp, if their has been National titles award for age group in Pre75, why should it all of a sudden change just because their might be age group racing for all class's, in sidecars your raceing fields of 6 not 40 as we get in solo's so why cant we have age groups and overall trophies for all class's of VMX. Get on a solo and race agaisnt 30 or 40 to the first cnr and see if you change your mind, split the era's and we will get more race time and we can have age groups, if you dont want to race your age group you will be able to just do the overalls.
cheers trev
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Amen, Mark, Wasn`t their an album out in the early day`s call thick as a brick. but some are to young to realise that.
With the greatest of respect Dave....What the fu*k are you talking about? What the hell as Jethro Tull to do with my post? If, by chance you're referring to my deja vi quip....Deja Vu was an album by Crosby Stills Nash and Young. Now back to the subject.....What about those peskt age groups eh? ::)
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Firko, Age racing was important in the early days, no doubt about that. Is it still important for VMX in 2010? If so, why?
I'm getting a real deja vu feeling here Nathan....we've been down this dusty road before and we didn't achieve any concensus back then either ;).I thought I'd given my reasoning for the need for age groups in my previous posts but at the risk of repeating myself, I feel that the same reasons that worked back in the beginning are even more valid today. As I've said in previous posts, I feel that age groups a major factor in attracting new blood to the sport because it creates a parity that is attractive to many older racers and I reckon anything that helps get more people back into the sport is a good thing.
I guess you aren't at that place where you see the sport through old guys eyes yet Nathan. Let's see what your attitude towards age groups is when you're 45 or 55.
I'm not looking for any sort of concencus - I'm trying to understand. So please repeat yourself!
At 34, I'm the same age as most of the guys who were attracted to VMX in 1990ish. I'm a slow and timid rider, so I also fit the stereotype of the guy who would benefit from not being mixed in with "those crazy young guys".
The reality is, that I am yet to encounter a crazy young rider at a VMX meet. Indeed, the most aggressive/forceful riders I've encountered have been old blokes.
And I've raced against guys like Brad and Boagy and they hose me just like the 'crazy young guys' (and they also hose most/all of the young blokes too).
So I can't help concluding that the "17 yo lunatics" is a myth in modern-day VMX, and consequently the whole "Age group racing will save us" is a false messiah.
Looking at modern MX, there a lots more 30+ blokes still racing, than there were in 1990. Before they ruined the track, the ACT club had seperate, healthy grids of over 35s and over 45s at their club days.
The old idea of getting married at 23, buying a house and having kids, and giving up dirt bikes is redundant. The equivilant guys who were drawn to age racing in the early days of VMX are now enjoying age racing in moderns - so re-invigorating it in VMX isn't going to resut in a big influx of older riders to VMX in 2010.
The HEAVEN example has bourne this out - despite a lot of older, semi-retired VMXers saying that they'd return to regular VMXing if age racing was offered, very very few of them even turned up to a single meeting.
(Yes, I am largely playing devil's advocate here. I can see at least one REALLY good reason for age racing - But I'm really trying to shake out the reasons why the older blokes are so strongly against racing younger blokes of the same/similar speed).
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Nathan, the age group classes are introduced to separate young from the old racer. and you are right in saying that some of us oldies are still quick, some are slower, but that doesn`t matter, when we race all power classes us oldies have that choice to race the younger fellows. it just makes us feel better when we are in our own age group just for one race. its know big deal. cheers David #46
older fellows race younger fellows in these classes all the time (for etc), 125 scratch, 250 scratch, 360 scratch, 4 stroke class, all powers, pre 65, pre 70, pre 75 so it keeps going, so whats the deal. If the older fellows are thinking about not racing the younger well they may as well just ride the age group class and then go home.
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spend a week in a spinal ward and things look different and how you race changes. does everything have to be a success for it to proceed. Nathan youre only young so i can see where your point of view is coming from, wait till your 48 and see if you still feel the same, i doubt it very much. age group racing for all class's is overdue, even my son uses his old man for traction, he dosnt mean to but that is how they race, no fear
cheers trev
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There's also the respect factor to consider. At Narrogin on Anzac Day, the VMXWA club had a rollup of around 70 riders, but early in the day there were 17 on the startline for the Over 55s. Not that all of them are jets, but that class in the last 18 months in particular in WA has featured some of the best and closest racing of the programme, particularly at the Bridgetown grasstrack under lights last November. Several stars in that class have figured prominently at national level in the last few years, including Bill Copley, Graham Taylor and the amazing Bill Watson. To me, it's worth keeping that segregation just to observe the high standard of mutual respect between a bunch of gnarly old buggers that still get well and truly stuck into it. More power to your right arms, lads ! ;)
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I never really thought about it. I think there's more of a fun factor racing against guys of your own era. :)
I probably am a bit more defensive riding against younger guys (elbows out) ready for some wild moves however in saying that there's a guy I regularly race against who shows no respect for other riders at all and he's older than I am. :-\
I still think I'd prefer to race against my own age group and I can see where that'd be more appealing to a guy just getting into the sport (which was relayed by someone to me just tonight. Himself a competent rider he was quick to let me know he didn't wanna be racing against young guys.... :-X)
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So I can't help concluding that the "17 yo lunatics" is a myth in modern-day VMX.
Probably true, but it's the perception that there is a different style and outlook between the ages that sticks with the older racer. I think that if you did a straw poll amongst the older members of our sport you'd find that they'd prefer to race with their age peers. The response from most on this thread would seem to back that point. When we developed the age group system it was designed to appeal to the over thirty and over forty aged riders, to give them the option to race amongst their age peers. The success of age group racing proved beyond doubt that it was what the punters wanted. Remember also that the all in capacity classes were also in place so not only did a rider have the opportunity to race amongst his age peers, he could also test his ability in open age racing if he so desired. It's the best of both worlds.
Many other sports feature age groups. Until I fell apart, I played Oldies Rugby in an over 40s competition, my mate still plays in the same rugby comp but now in an over 50s team and he also plays in an over fifties squash series. Swimming, athletics,tennis and even surfing feature age divisions AND I'm sure we'd find plenty more if we had a bit of a dig around.
As Trev and I aluded to earlier Nathan, If you were ten years older I reckon you'd have a different view on this. Once you hit your forties and body body doesn't function as well as it used to be and your perspective on life changes, your outlook will be a lot different. I know because physically and philosophically I'm a very different person to what I was when I was 34. My priorities have changed as have nearly all of us on the other side of 45-50. Try and look at the age group thing from the perspective of someone 10 years older and maybe you'll understand what I'm trying to explain.
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even my son uses his old man for traction, he dosnt mean to but that is how they race, no fear
cheers trev
Another point to take into the equation is a lot of younger riders (17-25) that are getting involved in mx racing are only just starting out.They haven't had the opportunity to ride since they could walk,or have a good mentor or an ex mx father figure.
I don't believe our VMX kids are in the same league.
The new kids have NO FEAR and are over confident swappers really :-X ;D ;).
Bringing the MX injury rate higher (three broken legs on Sunday,(not a good look for mX in general)
oops hijack
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eggsackery - people like Boagy et all are an exception to the rule - not the norm. By all means have the classes for the championships etc etc etc but let me get out and "play" with my mates in my age group. This is a fundamental difference between us and moderns - we have eras to cover in both bikes and riders - not so much in modern. If I am good enough or so inclined I can race for a sheep station and wear the consequences - if Fatboy and I want to have a tussle and use Freaky fro traction in the over 45's then please let us - no really please let us!!!!!
;D
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we ride VMX for the fun, that's what 99% do. Because you never have to up date your bike and you never have to stay young to enjoy yourself.
The VMXWA club had 17 over 55's on the grid out of a day that had 68 riders all up. We got told off for banging too many bars. We laughed all the way home, thanks VMX for letting us stay young and Bill Watson still has the ability to put anyone on their back in the mud (I know) and it's great to see him do it. The Sprite/Alron/Eagle (British) thread showed a 77yr old man (my dad) reunited with his original Alron and all he wanted to do was grab some gear and have a go, look at the photo's, a very happy man.
You get rid of age groups, you'll lose a lot of riders
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Long live VMX Tossa
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I think that if you did a straw poll amongst the older members of our sport you'd find that they'd prefer to race with their age peers.
Absolutely. I'm trying to find out whether the perception is based on anything concrete, or its just a 'it used to work, but we haven't stopped and thought about it in the last fifteen years' thing...
I obviously don't know what it feels like to be 44, 54 or 64. But I do know how my attitudes have changed from 14 to 24 to 34, and I can extrapolate. You won't find me showing any enthusiasm for racing modern MX nowdays, for example... Even when I'm eligible for over 35s, it holds minimal appeal.
I guess that's the point: Present day VMX is an entirely different sport to modern MX. Nowdays its not cheaper or easier than modern MX if you want to do well, so the guys who were attracted to the low cost of VMX in the early days are gone.
And so have the crazies.
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I think that if you did a straw poll amongst the older members of our sport you'd find that they'd prefer to race with their age peers.
Absolutely. I'm trying to find out whether the perception is based on anything concrete, or its just a 'it used to work, but we haven't stopped and thought about it in the last fifteen years' thing...
I obviously don't know what it feels like to be 44, 54 or 64. But I do know how my attitudes have changed from 14 to 24 to 34, and I can extrapolate. You won't find me showing any enthusiasm for racing modern MX nowdays, for example... Even when I'm eligible for over 35s, it holds minimal appeal.
I guess that's the point: Present day VMX is an entirely different sport to modern MX. Nowdays its not cheaper or easier than modern MX if you want to do well, so the guys who were attracted to the low cost of VMX in the early days are gone.
And so have the crazies.
Not so sure about that last bit.
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OK... how about "So have the crazies that you can avoid by riding in age races"?
Or if you're being really pedantic: "So have the crazy riders that you can avoid by riding in age races"...
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?
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how much concrete would you like Nathan?
we have had numerous riders, national champions, x a graders, mid pack , and enthusists all say age groups for all classes, how much concrete do you need, is this one of those glass 1/2 full 1/2 empty things, I dont think you have any idea of how the majority feels, cant you just accecpt that maybe you dont have a grasp on the issue, no offence and you are entitled to an opinion, but you still have baby powder on ya butt, 34, give me a brake, age groups will benifit you when i'm pushing up daisies ;D.
cheers trev
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turn the throttle wide open nathan, and use us oldies for traction, and you will only do that for one lap my friend, us oldies have gusto.
Note: read the fine print, ( am l talking through my arse, your did l just get excited for a second,)
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Worms, I'm trying to find out WHY people are so keen on age racing.
I remain completely unconvinced by the assertion that any VMX racer who's younger than [you] is some sort of lunatic who will take you out at the first possible opportunity.
So what is it? Why is age racing considered to be so crucial, when simple age specific scoring of an all-in race would reward the fast guys of any particular age group?
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Nathan, Is it age groups that bother you or is it the assertion that young riders were 'crazy'? I really don't understand why you're stuck on this. I think the 'why' part of your question's been well covered.
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How has it been covered?
If its "young riders are lunatics" then its not been covered at all. A few blokes have made that assertion without any sort of evidence. I've pushed for details and now we're into the "you just don't understand" excuses...
I'm pushing it for two reasons:
1. Because age group racing has become the flavour of the month, and it basically being touted as the sport's saviour.
I reckon that it will make SFA difference, and we shouldn't get too excited about it. Not to say that it is a bad thing, but let's keep it in perspective.
There are many other things that we could put our time and effort into for more tangible gain, IMHO.
2. I am over the 'young riders are lunatics' nonsense. If it was just about making excuses for not being right at the pointy end, it would be fine - but when it is divisive and elistist, then I'm going to call shenanigans.
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It's one of those "vibe" things Nathan. Not everything can be measured, photographed and sent away for analysis (like some other "riverting" topics). As I stated earlier, until I really thought about, racing against my peers is more inviting. Nothing to do with 'disliking' racing against the younger generations....... 8)
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I think also that EVERYBODY wants to place or win at some stage. More of a chance in age group racing, especially if you are an old boy. We all get chuffed if we do well at any level of racing.
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Right...so we actually want to race against our peers, and the age thing is just a rough way to group ourselves with peers?
Is it effective enough to be worth the effort/hype?
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Yep. Works well in Viper..... ;)
And of course if The Nats are split (as per the topic) It'll make it easier to run age group races wont it? End of story. Now I'm gunna do a Ji and lock it down.... :D
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Some of those posts seem to contradict themselfs .
The same people that say they only race for fun , now say they are happier with a trophy ?
Um, I think I said that. And most people know I am a trophy hunter.
To me, not beating the best , means its a hollow victory. A bit like what they have in soccer and football . Best and fairest , most improved and the list goes on . I just love those presentation nights Grin
When its all said and done, any win is a good win. Makes one feel good. If I am lucky enough to make it to 70 and am able to throw a leg over, I would be happy as punch to accept a trophy of any kind.
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Spot-on 414, I bang bars with young blokes on our hometrack all the time (on some pretty meaty gear at times, Ha!)and luv it! i think come raceday though theres a lot more attraction in riding against blokes of the same vintage/era/outlooks, it just add's to the experience ,as iam sure most of the younger blokes would too like racing with their peers also, also i'd say most people that want to win/place a race want to cross the cheq flag , not halfway threw the pack as may be the case with mixed classes :)
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It's one of those "vibe" things Nathan. Not everything can be measured, photographed and sent away for analysis (like some other "riverting" topics).
This is getting creepy, my chum Ross and I agreeing on things is happening way too frequently for my liking :o.
I'm rarely at a loss for words but I got a bit lost when trying to define the "why" in Nathans question. Ross's vibe thing is exactly what I was looking for. The success of age group racing is indefinable, it just feels right and it works. As in other sports (as I mentioned earlier) why shouldn't it be accepted that older sportsmen be allowed the opportunity to compete with their age peers? Imagine a 50 year old rugby player being expected to ruck down with 25 year olds or that same 50 year old having to line up in a sprint race next to a 20 year old? Nobody would seriously consider doing that but because it's vintage motocross it seems it's not relevent or needed? The success of all post "glory days" sports is based around creating an environment that allows older competitors a platform to continue their sporting life way past their 'use by date'. The Masters Games, Golden Oldies Rugby and many other veteran age specific sporting series have taken on world importance as more and more Baby Boomers and Gen X sportsmen wish to remain in their sport.
The Golden Oldies World Rugby Festival is being held in Sydney in September/October and they're expecting 4000 entrants comprising of 200 teams from 20 countries...all 35 and over and in November the Pan Pacific Masters Games are on on the Gold Coast with 10 000 veteran competitors competing in 33 sports including VMX and Vinduro. I mention these events to emphasise the importance that is placed on promoting sports for those of us past our sporting glory days and to see how big it's become. Australian VMX was the first to recognise that there is a potential to draw riders from retirement by creating an age group system offering parity and now similar system is used in our sport all over the world. We got it right.
To me, not beating the best , means its a hollow victory.
If winning an age group race is a hollow victory Walt, then a win in pre60/65/70 is equally as hollow because you weren't competing against the fastest and newest bikes at the meeting (theoretically pre '75). If I use your 'hollow victory' analogy as an example, your perfect world would have all ages competing against each other in all in races. There'd be no age group racing for both riders or bikes because to win anything less than the 'main race' would be a hollow victory. My point is that you are competing against the best of the best in your age group. Let's not forget that the all ages capacity races are still on the program. If you don't want to race in an age group, don't! Just stick to the all ages races and everyone's happy.
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I think what Nathan is trying to get across is that fair enough if you want to ride with your peers for the 'vibe' but its a false sense of security if you think you will be safer riding in age groups and that all motorsport is dangerous and you are at no more of a risk of of being injured racing against younger guys than people your own age. There will be guys that run you off the track or run into you no matter what ages you race against. I think its a good idea to have age groups and non age groups. That way guys can race agianst their peers if they feel more comfortable that way and then the guys who want to give the younger ones a run for their money and see whos really best can do that. Then there is the best of both worlds and it keeps everyone happy.
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how about this then, time lines
1- babypowders , under 35
2-wife and 2 kids, under 40
3- wife, 2 kids and the mistress, under 45
4- happly married, own 10 motorbikes, under 50
5- had several wives, new girlfriend, 15 motorbikes, under 55
6- dont give rats, eat what i want, drink what i want, do what i want for the over55
that might be easier to follow for ya Nathan ;D
Cheers trev
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Sooo we are not aloud to race up class's ( in fair of embrassing others on better bikes than ours )
Are we aloud to race down on age group races, so we can give the kids a hidding ? :D
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Firko, the point about age group competitions in other sports isn't entirely relevant.
Those sports are 'one on one' (or one team vs one team) and don't have the luxury of being able to pointscore age groups seperately.
They also have more competitors than the competition format can handle, meaning that the total pool of competitors needs to be broken up.
In contrast, the under-40 pre-75 all-powers races at Broadford had seven starters at the first race... Broken up into capacity classes, it would make for a lot of very dull races with only a couple of blokes riding around...
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Nathan - thats wrong. The overriding thought is over 50's or whatever rugby groups - meaning old farts playing against old farts. Same with us - if I want to ride "up" with the big boys so be it - if not then with my peers. Something those of us it affects appear to want!
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*sigh* C'mon Ross, you're smarter than that... I've never doubted the wanting part!
A MX race can be 'all-in' - if the grid and the track licence could handle it, you could conceivably have every single bike a the meeting in the one race and score the classes seperately. (I'm not saying this would be a good thing, but hopefully it illustrates my point).
You can't do this with hockey or cricket, where one team competes against one other.
Similarly, rugby is an even worse example because its a full-contact sport where youthful enthusiasm/robustness is particularly valuable. While MX can get rough and tumble at times, its not a part of being competitive and there are penalties for over-stepping the low limits.
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Nathan, age group racing has been a part of Nats before you were born ;D
the conv is about the spliting of the Nats, so thus poses the ? to introduce age group racing for all, not just pre 75.
it isnt a feisability study, either you like it or you dont, stop dragging it out and move on.
QVMX had a show of hands at the Bidadababah race day and it was a overwhelming yes to age group racing, and wear a non-competitive club.
Cheers Trev
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I can't believe this age group arguement is still going! Every valid reason for it has been put forward several times.
95% are in favour of it... end of story.
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we are dealing with littlens ::)
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...who have been to more Nationals in the last few years than any of the people who disagree with him...
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...who have been to more Nationals in the last few years than any of the people who disagree with him...
::)
Oh well that settles it then.
Nathen, you're 100% correct. The rest of you, go and have a good, long hard look at yourselves......
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...who have been to more Nationals in the last few years than any of the people who disagree with him...
::)
Oh well that settles it then.
Nathen, you're 100% correct. The rest of you, go and have a good, long hard look at yourselves......
Yep.. after 18 years of racing vintage mx i've met my match
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Well, c'mon... surely the future of the Nationals should be determined by the people who actually compete?If Trev wants to take a swipe, then I'll take one back.
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that wasnt a swipe, wheres the swipe, young fellow?
you can call me an old bastard if that will make you feel better ;D
back to age groups
cheers trev
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Just asking here....
1/ In the hay day of VMX, how many Pre75 riders would turn up to race at the Nationals and how many Pre75 riders race at the Nationals now?
2/ Since the age group racing is still available now at the Nationals, what age group has the biggest numbers on the start line?
3/ If age group racing is so important, then I would think since we are all getting older, then the older age group classes would be the biggest, are they?
4/ If the numbers of younger riders (20-35) are getting smaller, then, by most poeples reckoning in here that by giving them age group racing their numbers will grow. Is this true?
5/ Has anyone taken into consideration the thoughts of the younger VMX rider wanting to maybe race against his boyhood hero but cant because that older hero races in an age group class.
(fully understandable, its his choice)
6/ In the last 10yrs of the Nationals, have the numbers in Pre75 (which has age group racing) increased or decreased?
7/ If age group racing was included for Pre78, EVO and Pre85, what ages would the classes be and do you think the numbers at the Nationals would increase?
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DJ i could probably answer a couple of those
1/ from memory at the '93 & '94 nats there were about 150 riders
2/ In '94 the biggest numbers were 30 -39yrs, i believe now the 40-49yrs would be biggest
3/ again 40-49 i think
4/ i doubt it
5/ no.. i doubt they'd know who the stars of yesteryear were
6/ i would think they've decreased as newer eras have come in
7/ possibly 16-39, 40-49, 50-59, 60 and over?
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Those sports are 'one on one' (or one team vs one team) and don't have the luxury of being able to pointscore age groups seperately.
What about veterans athletics and swimming to name just two sports with a similar structure to motocross. They're indiividual pursuits where one competes against other individuals using the age group system. There is a start and a finish where the first person home is the winner. Sadly you'll probably find some other pedantic nit pick and take the argument onto some other tangent so unfortunately that does it for me Nathan...you win old buddy. I guess you must be right, us old fellas don't have a clue about our sports future and of course as I don't race any more, everything I say is totally irrelevent anway. I knew that missing the Tassie Nats would come back to haunt me. :-[
You've rejected every single argument I've thrown at you so there's no further point in me carrying on with this. ::)
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5/ Has anyone taken into consideration the thoughts of the younger VMX rider wanting to maybe race against his boyhood hero but cant because that older hero races in an age group class.
I can't answer most of your questions without doing some research Don but question 5 is easily answered. Our young rider can have ample opportunity to race his childhood hero in the open age races. That's the whole point that seems to be getting miscontrued here. As well as age group racing, all in open age group capacity racing is still an equally valid part of a championship event. Age group racing is only part of the overall meeting. Remember also that age groups aren't used for pre 60/65/70,4 stroke and sidecar classes. They're only used for 125,250 and over 300cc capacity classes.
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yep - I was gunna say the same. Nathan - you have defeated me. And yes as for Firko - just because the older guy has an age group to ride in doesn't mean he cant ride in other OPEN classes - if he wants (there is that word again Nathan) and satisfy the younger guys wishes if thats correct.
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What about veterans athletics and swimming to name just two sports with a similar structure to motocross. ... There is a start and a finish where the first person home is the winner. Sadly you'll probably find some other pedantic nit pick ....
You mean like the bit where there are only a few lanes in an olympic swimming pool/athletics track, but 30~40 gate positions on a MX start line? ::)
If the swimming race had 8 starters, would they bother seperating the racers into age groups?
Who is going to ride in these age races? At Broadford there were plenty of races with less than half a dozen guys on the line - carve them into age groups and plenty of races will literally have only one rider in them.
Anyone care to explain how this helps anyone? I can see them creating huge, pointless gaps in the programme, and devaluing the classes that are actually contested.
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Well, c'mon... surely the future of the Nationals should be determined by the people who actually compete?If Trev wants to take a swipe, then I'll take one back.
Nathan, there would be no competition , no racing, no clubs, no organisers, and no officials want to have anything to do with it, if only the racers had a voice. oh goodie, thats means me as a competitor,MA ofiicial, organiser, scurtineer can stay at home till the last minute because all you young guns will have everything sorted.
sorry Nathan a submission has gone with our clubs delegate to next MA/MQ meeting for age group racing for all class's, we will need to put a stop to it as it was not only competitors that voted, organisers where their as with officials and the tucka lady( i think she knows more about this than you ;D) old guys racing together sounds simple really.
sorry nathan, but your points are not the discussion, so stop going on about it and move on
Cheers Trev,
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Stop using Broadford as an example. It was the worst Nationals as far as numbers for all the reasons discussed elsewhere. How about you use Conondale as your example. Where pre 75 age groups went well. But that would not suit your argument (which is, why age groups *).
You mean like the bit where there are only a few lanes in an olympic swimming pool/athletics track, but 30~40 gate positions on a MX start line? Roll Eyes
If the swimming race had 8 starters, would they bother seperating the racers into age groups?
The pedantic answer to a pedantic question is, how big would a pool have to be to have 30-40 swimmers in one race? How many swimmers have entered? Could there be 30-40? Maybe there are heats and then finals seeing as the pool is only so big. Bit like heats at a national vmx meet if there are more than 40 starters. Relevance to age group racing?...ZERO. Merely a comment to show how age groups are used in other sports. Are the other sports exactly the same? Of course not. But the similarities are close enough to give an example of age groups that work.
* Age groups work as seen in National events other than Broadford. The smallest group would probably be the youngest which is no big deal as it is set up for the older generation more so. Do older blokes like it ...yes. Why? ( as been said) To ride with guys their own age that also hopefully ride to go home safely to their homes/family/business etc. To not have to ride against a mad kid( whether true or not, it is a reason for said old boys). To get an extra ride on their fav bike. AND to really have a good chance of winning or placing against guys their own age that they probably rode with BACK IN THE DAY! Every body wants a trophy...really.
My reality with the racing side. I know that in the big picture I am a very average rider and in no way could I cut it in moderns. It doesn't make it a hollow victory for me to win anything on offer. Same as the guy who has just won the over 70's riding green bikes backwards that only have one leg and their tongue hanging out class. The guy that won that class would be feeling pretty good about himself.
If this long winded answer to your original question (which has all been said before)is not enough, then you just don't get it...period.
And yes work is slow atm.
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too many words, being an old bloke i fall asleep while readin~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~uh where was I, g it! ;D
Cheers Trev
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Right on 090. PanpacMasters has approx. 10,000 competitors spread over 34 sports including bikes.
ALL these sports are run in age catagories--some up to "over 80".Veteran sport is huge world wide and growing.The "World Masters" has more participants than the Olympics. Many ex Olympic & world champions are extending their sporting life through masters events.
Look outside the box--the answer is to state the bleeding obvious.
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All i want to know is HOW can i ride up a class here ???
how about this then, time lines
1- babypowders , under 35
2-wife and 2 kids, under 40
3- wife, 2 kids and the mistress, under 45
4- happly married, own 10 motorbikes, under 50
5- had several wives, new girlfriend, 15 motorbikes, under 55
6- dont give rats, eat what i want, drink what i want, do what i want for the over55
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Back to the original thread . If a split would eventuate, how would the freed up time be used ?
Walter, at the risk of stating the bloody obvious....the extra time would be used to run Capacity Age Group races! and if there's any spare time still available, extra practice sessions, a Superseniors (over seventies) session and perhaps parade laps for non racing legends or bikes with historic interest.
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Walter, at the risk of stating the bloody obvious....the extra time would be used to run Capacity Age Group races! and if there's any spare time still available, extra practice sessions, a Superseniors (over seventies) session and perhaps parade laps for non racing legends or bikes with historic interest.
…or time to sample a Maicogirl Cheese platter!! And possibly a cleansing ale?
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I liked the National anthem and parade lap at the Canberra Nationals for the Dt last year.
I reckon that was th highlight, all the bikes got lined up on the track, flag went up, Anthem played. then RACING ! ( it was just like in the states it had Atmosphere).
It was like it actually had a pulse.
YOU need to spend the time putting on a bit of a specticle for the punters i say. I cant say im that interested in watching a bunch of bikes back to back racing around in circles, half the time i got no clue even what event is riding. So how would JOe public ?
iT need a bit of Pzzzaz injection. Reckon Grasy and his guys are going to give it a nudge this year as well, promotion doenst stop at a bunch of flyers.
I cant say id pay $2 to go into a gate to watch VMX or the NAts it just felt flat........
why the Broadford SHow and shine / swap meet wasnt tried to be brough back a week or 2 and held at the same time is beyond me, if both committees had thought about it they would have BOTH doubled there numbers.........
ok ok i realise it just another thing to organise, but geese its losing its flavour.......... and diluting classes seemed to have done that too going by the foot traffic on and off the track at the last nats this year.
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Stop using Broadford as an example. It was the worst Nationals as far as numbers for all the reasons discussed elsewhere. How about you use Conondale as your example. Where pre 75 age groups went well. But that would not suit your argument (which is, why age groups *).
OK, no worries. Then tell me how well age groups in capacity classes in the other eras would have gone at Conondale... Pre-75 was fine, and Evo would have been OK, but the rest would have been just as much of a joke as they would have been at Broadford.
And what's to say that that a Broadford style turn-out will never happen again? Or did I miss the bit where Queensland and Victoria actually called a cease-fire?
I really am happy to accept the age racing is a good thing because people want it - even though I reckon its a poor way to achieve the things it is supposed to achieve...
So, I'm now keen to see how the issue of under-supported classes is dealt with... The only obvious answer is to combine races... :D x1000
The punters' reaction at Broadford showed that combining capacities within eras is not an option.
Which leaves the option of combining age groups! :D x infinity.
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blah, blah, blah, blah yep your right Nathan,blah, blah,blah, yep ::)
sheeeeeeeesh, young blokes, age groups at Conondale would have been awesome, every class had full grids except some of the early stuff, but EVERY race was a title event so what are you saying. ::)
here's an idea for ya to get your head around!
age groups with no minium number to consitute a race
under 40, all in 125 250 and open scored seperate
under 50, all in 125, 250, open scored seperate
old buggars, to 60, 125,250,open scored seperate
really old buggars over 60, 125 ,250 ,open scored seperate
grand total of 4 extra class's unless you have grids biggar than 40, old guys(your mates) racing each other outside of the era's, wow absolutely rockect science
Cheers Trev
sorry freaky, you cant ride up under those rules unless you fit the era description and eligabilty for that class ;D
proof is required,
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under 40, all in 125 250 and open scored seperate
under 50, all in 125, 250, open scored seperate
Getting closer! Although doesn't everyone hate the 'scored seperate' bit?!
What about the eras?
Does 'age groups for all eras' actually mean that, or will some eras miss out?
Four age races per era means 24 extra races across all eras (or twelve extra at the pre-90 Nats and twelve at the pre-78 Nats).
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I've said it before and I'll say it again, with the advent of transponders you can get all sorts of scores out f the results-or should be able to with a good programing guru.
And you could nominate which class/group/catagory you want to be scored with at nomination time(or after the last race if you were short of a trophy)
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Every day i click on here and i'm reading the same shit... Am i in a time warp?
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No, you've just got to stop reading page #1 again and again... ;D
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As soon as you stop asking the same questions as page 1! :D
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It's fricken ground hog day.
I had a dog that chased its tail so I cut the tail off-just like this , some times I wish I could get off some threads.
Go to the one about Maicogirl-thats a shitter.
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I love this... "Oh, hang on, I think he might have a point.... Shit! ... I know - let's ignore it and take swipes!".
Yes I've laboured on the point for too long, but I had been hoping that all of the noise would reveal something more profound than "I like it because I like it!"....
So, I've given up on that, and am now asking how we avoid lots of pointless races.
You could even call it progress!
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Pointless races aren't pointless to the rider who is racing in them.
Let the entries reflect what the riders wish to enter.
Why fix the wheel if it isn't broke..
last one ....How about we just see what next year brings in due time. ;D
cheers
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Only if someone wants to put it on.
So far it's NZ 1 vote
NT 1 vote &
Norfolf Island some interest.
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Pointless races aren't pointless to the rider who is racing in them.
If there's one rider in the race, then its definitely a pointless race.
If there's two or three riders, and they're just riding around the track (ie not chasing each other), then it is a pointless race.
Let the entries reflect what the riders wish to enter.
Absolutely - I'm sure they will.... :-\
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* Age groups work as seen in National events other than Broadford. The smallest group would probably be the youngest which is no big deal as it is set up for the older generation more so. Do older blokes like it ...yes. Why? ( as been said) To ride with guys their own age that also hopefully ride to go home safely to their homes/family/business etc. To not have to ride against a mad kid( whether true or not, it is a reason for said old boys). To get an extra ride on their fav bike. AND to really have a good chance of winning or placing against guys their own age that they probably rode with BACK IN THE DAY! Every body wants a trophy...really.
These three reasons don't count then?
Seems THIS THREAD has become pointless.
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If there's one rider in the race, then its definitely a pointless race.
If there's two or three riders, and they're just riding around the track (ie not chasing each other), then it is a pointless race.
Sigh ::) And here I was thinking that this was all tucked away and settled. Silly me for underestimating your Bull Terrier like tenacity Nathan. Oh well, let's give it one last little go..........
You've quoted two scenarios that actually don't exist and if you'd taken the time to check you'd realise that at National level with your hypothetical one,two or three riders per race scenario just plain doesn't happen. Full Stop. Unless things have changed, if an age group doesn't achieve the desired number of entries to constitute a class, the entries for that class are absorbed into the next lower (younger age group) division. As I said, your one,two or three rider scenario just doesn't exist and never has at championship level.
I think most of the posters on this thread have shown ample reasons for the age group classes to exist but you still steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that perhaps, just perhaps age groups might just be a good thing. I fully respect your right to argue the point against age groups but for an argument to be successful you need to offer a valid and strong counterpoint and offer an alternative. We're still waiting for that to happen.
Nothing personal at all Nathan but this is getting tedious.
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Two main points
Running the Nats over one weekend is old skool thinking. Stop trying to fit into two days and most your problems go away. Most guys now who are really into Vintage can afford to take some real time off or just come to their events if the programme is done correctly. I do know that makes it harder for a club to run it but, running a Nats properly is a great money maker for any club you just need outside assistance with Flaggies etc. Other sports clubs , Rotary, Lions etc I have even used the boy scouts to help flag multi day events and know it can be done.
The Nats needs to be aged group driven start thinking outside the box and one could have open bike age classes run and the end of the vintage classes.
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You pay service clubs like Rotary,lions,etc. I have help run 2 and 3 day meets before and this way works fine the SES is also great as you have trained first aid flaggies. Yes it costs $500 a day to pay for them, plus lunch and drinks but a meeting that can turn over $10,000 if well run it is with in it's budget.
You only need the core club members for all days and at best that will be 5.
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.... if an age group doesn't achieve the desired number of entries to constitute a class, the entries for that class are absorbed into the next lower (younger age group) division. As I said, your one,two or three rider scenario just doesn't exist and never has at championship level.
Thereby eliminating most of the point of age races, surely? Isn't everyone saying that its all about racing riders of your own age?
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Pointless races aren't pointless to the rider who is racing in them.
If there's one rider in the race, then its definitely a pointless race.
If there's two or three riders, and they're just riding around the track (ie not chasing each other), then it is a pointless race.
If you are a 18 or a 32 yr old and traveled 4000km for a few age races its a pointless journey..I think not.
This happens in era class's pre 65,not age races.
How about we put our efforts into arguing for the right race support ie pre 65. ;D
my opinion only.
cheers
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The "World Masters" has more participants than the Olympics. Many ex Olympic & world champions are extending their sporting life through masters events.
Is this event to be held at Glen Helen later in the year ??
cheers
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I think the pre 78 should be with the older bikes,when I rode at the oz nats 09 for the first time I rode in pre 75 and one evo and think the pre 78 bikes and people who rode them fitted in more with the older bikes.
I was so impressed with the pre78 bikes and the PEOPLE WHO RODE THEM , that I now have 2 pre 78 bikes.
I like the evo but I think the older bikes and people are great and if they were to split pre 78 with the later it would be a real shame.
So if they split them I would ride only if pre 78 was with the older.
I think the age group racing is great, but because 09 nats was my first ,they ran age group and then all ages together in pre 75 so WHAT ARE THEY ALL GOING ON ABOUT . Do they run the same format at other ants.
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Pre 78 bikes should stay with the pre 75 bikes, for example, KX 400, 250 75- 76 MODEL you cannot tell me that they are any better than a 74 model kx, only the shocker mounting point. engines are the same.
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WTF are you on about Dave? The '75 KX400 and '74 KX450 are totally different bikes.
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mark, l am not talking about the kx450. mark l raced a kx 250 76, then got the rear end modified to 74 spec`s, and raced the bike in pre75., the engine are the same, tanks are the same, wheel are the same. what l and trying to say is, pre 75 vintage needs pre78 bikes racing at our meetings, l will say it again, pre 75 meetings needs to have the pre78 bikes in the programs.
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As the year starts to whined up to an end,and not many submissions have been submitted by oz vmx clubs-does anyone else want to vote on the above interesting poll.. ;D
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I have the 2011 Bonanza Leaflet is out now. entry`s close in January 2011.
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I have the 2011 Bonanza Leaflet is out now. entry`s close in January 2011.
where did you get that from ??
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Mine came in the mail.
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Yep, those old pre '78 classes sure are dead and buried. Buggered if I know why we put up with 'em. :P
Cant say I agree with that Firko. If you had witnessed the show the WAVMX crew put on at Narrogin and how strong the numbers were, something like 200 pre75 bikes and 116 riders, any club running the nats would be happy to have the pre78 and earlier event.
Maybe if clubs could use their initiative to keep costs down for the riders, they would get more riders turning up.
Personally, Id try my best to ride both IF they were held on back to back weekends and in the same state as Alison suggested. Otherwise, if I had to pick one, Pre 78 would be my choice.
Cheers
Mark
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Yep, those old pre '78 classes sure are dead and buried. Buggered if I know why we put up with 'em. :P
Firko is more pre75 than pre75 Mark ;D ;D ,,he writes with sarcasm, which doesn't work to well on forums some days.
Agree on same state same week/fortnight would be awesome. :P
cheers A
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Quote from: firko on April 16, 2010, 12:09:10 PM
Yep, those old pre '78 classes sure are dead and buried. Buggered if I know why we put up with 'em.
Cant say I agree with that Firko
Alison's correct Mark, I was being a tad sarcastic, I would have thought the little smiley face with the tongue hanging out might have given you some sort of hint ::). I've been the poster child for promoting the pre 75 classes for 24 years, longer than anyone else in this country. Even though certain forces of evil are crying out to all and sundry that the "old dungers" are dead and buried and taking up space at meetings and therefore not allowing room for pre 90 classes, I'll continue to champion the pre 75 movement on this side of the island. The old bikes are far from dead yet.
Don't get in a knot over the Nats split, it ain't going to happen.....yet.
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damn , i thought we got rid of those noisey old dripperrs that are hard to scrutineer! ;D folding footpegs and the like! :P.
you know how you go full circle, bit like are we at the start or is that the finish line, what came first the chicken or the egg.
keep it all together and we will have the biggest championship events that show case our sport, so what if its 4 days long! how cool will it be, but the catch is it must have "priority" over all other events and not the current bullshit dished out by MA, too many prima donnas in the decision making.
keep it VMX for all class's, so what if you have sit around for ya ride, it just gives you more time to think about coming midpack or last.
BRING BACK THE 4 DAY EASTER EVENT AS IT ALLWAYS WAS, no problems then.
Cheers Worms,
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Yep HBBC has buggered us up completely as far as our nationals are concerned. AND Ipswich city council is trying to put on something similar at Willowbank at Easter each year as well.
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No worries Firko.....I know you've been around a little while ;) You got my Elsinore through scrutineering at Connonadale when it was looking like being knocked back for the GEM reeds..
I thought you may have been thinking along the lines of numbers attending.
Yep HBBC has buggered us up completely as far as our nationals are concerned. AND Ipswich city council is trying to put on something similar at Willowbank at Easter each year as well.
HBBB is the success it is because of the fun factor. No racing and somewhere to ride everything Pre85 a bloke (or bloke-et, sorry ladies) has in the shed. Whether you want to ride or not, you can just hang out and talk about ya bike or cut loop after loop on the enduro or GP circuit. And the swap meet has been getting bigger by the year.
keep it all together and we will have the biggest championship events that show case our sport, so what if its 4 days long!
Cheers Worms,
I hear ya worms, it would truly showcase our sport. to keep all classes together. The biggest problem though is trying to ride a pre75 bike through half metre deep braking and acceleration bumps. Geez its hard on the bike....and the rider. Not that im whinging, I do ride bikes from 75 to modern (hey, i need at least one bike with rego)
Maybe the next promoter might think of a way to please all genre's of bikes. Per78 1st day. Pre90 the next. Screen the track and do it all again. Awesome.
And lets hope that MA and the hosting club will promote, and promote hard. Just as the WA crew did for the 15th bash. Those lot over there know a thing or 2 about hosting an event....any other club could do well to take a leaf out of their book in my view.
I dont think it's right to blame MA alone when NONE of the Victroian clubs involved TALK to EACHOTHER and work together for the BETTERMENT OF OUR SPORT. Having seperate clubs holding similar events for the same genre' of bikes on the same calendar day is just plain ridiculous if anybody cares to ask me.
Not that anybody is asking!
Cheers
Mark
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With the numbers we have been getting I still think its manageable to have the pre75 in the am and the pre85 in the pm.
With the added bonus of good earth moving crew Saturday night ready for pre75 Sunday am...
Anythings possible with a good crew/committee behind it :P oh and its probably time we supported who ever it is that takes the job on and enter when the time arrives. ;D
cheers A
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ah, " a good earth moving" you say every night, mmmmmmmmmmmm, someone will be knocked-up, I mean buggerd ;D
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I agree that HBBC is great for hanging out and having a ride if you want without too much pressure to race just as CD is-however it has taken our main time slot-that of easter when we can all travel and have a few days off to race our bikes with like minded folk.
And Alison if the earth moves for you saturday night-good on you- but I don't think we need a commitee to make it happen :D :D