What Nationals would you ride if they were split?

[090]

A bit of stereo typing. It stems from the moderns where so many young guys ride to win at any cost making big mistakes which usually includes taking out someone else. A state of mind when you don't have a mortgage or wife/kids and you bounce well. It doesn't really translate to vintage and I must say , there are some really untidy old boys out there as well.
I had a guy at the '09 nat's (in pre 70) literally throw his bike at me. His front wheel hit my shoulder. It was so ridiculous I felt it was on purpose.
But I still think age classes are a good thing. Gives an old boy a chance to win or place instead of an also ran.

[firko]

When age group racing was in regular use even at club days, most age group capacity races (except maybe 125) had full or nearly full grids, anybody who raced in NSW or Victoria during that period will back me up on that. The reason for that was that, besides the nostalgia/old bike thing,  age group racing was the main attraction drawing riders out of their loungerooms and onto old bikes.   Bring back regular age group racing, emphasize the fact to outsiders and potential newbies and I'll bet my gonads the riders will start coming back. I reckon you just might see a few of the missing racers return as well.

Imagine that we had a decent VMX rider grading system.

This old chestnut's been reappearing every few years since the very first vintage meeting and on face value, it's a damn fine initiative. Now, let's just find someone to actually collate the information and initiate the system. It's at this stage in the process where everyone becomes too busy to volunteer and the idea is shuffled back into the drawer until someone else has the same bright idea (for someone else to do, of course).

[huskibul]

  I  have'nt raced mx or dirttrack in competition since 1978 (enduro in early 80's) i ride plenty on hometrack and have thought about racing again(heaven etc) and i believe the age classes could be a deciding factor,i would also be all for the split as thats the era i grew up in,i also have evo bikes that i love riding but wouln't bother if i didn't race at the same meet,just have more connection with  the pre 60-78 era(horse's for courses) and iam sure there would be a lot of others like me balancing on that decision,the other side to the coin is getting the next generation connected to old bike's to keep it going strong, 

[EML]

We could try a system they use in the UK whereby they calculate the age/style of bike with the age of the rider and use that as a scoring ratio.
Then we could go back to two motos a day with all in. Now that sounds like fun.

[huskibul]

  sounds complicated, Don't think i'd bother if i only got 2 rides for the day, big travel, big outlay,better off cuttin laps at home,

[EML]

GP riders only get two motos a day, but they have up to four hours of free practise to get their set-up right and then time training or qualifying to see who starts from where on the grid. They get plenty of time on the bike.
I reckon two all in motos of 40mins plus 2 laps will be plenty to sort the wheat from the chaff. The crowd would be well chuffed.

[huskibul]

  There's no doubt the 40 min motos were fun and sorted the wood, but i dont know if they fit in with vintage bikes and vintage bodies

[VMX247]

Now, let's just find someone to actually collate the information and initiate the system.[/i]

agree If MA & SCB can get a grading committee for mx,no reason why vmx cant.
ah that reminds me some of our B graders need a gentle push into the A grade.  

[firko]

I reckon two all in motos of 40mins plus 2 laps will be plenty to sort the wheat from the chaff. The crowd would be well chuffed.

40 minute motos are great when you're 18 and full of vim and vigour but this is vintage racing not title meetings for teenage kiddies on their YZ-Fs. I doubt that many young riders could handle a 40 minute moto come to think of it, let alone an arthritic 60 year old.
This emphasises even more the need for age groups to cater for those among us who've aged a fair bit but still want to compete. I doubt that the thought of two 40 minute motos is going to attract too many riders over 40 years of age plus, how do you fit all of the various classes into a days racing using a 40 minute format?
The crowd, with respect would be bored shitless as well.

agree If MA & SCB can get a grading committee for mx,no reason why vmx cant.

Agreed, the fly in the ointment is that we tried for a number of years to implement a grading system and every time we called for ideas and suggestions at a meeting you can see the faces look down at the floor and the hands stay down when volunteers to form a grading committee were called for. It's all about comittment and dedication, a scarse comodity in vintageland where everybody wants to race and nobody wants the shitty jobs. It's all too hard and is quickly shuffelled under the carpet until the next time someone suggests it. Then the same old same old lack of committment  starts up all over again........
 
In the AHRMA the Intermediate, Novice and Expert system is used where first time racers race in Intermediate and after a few meetings their results are collated and they're reassigned to Novice if they're shown to be of slowish standard, Expert if they're shown to be fast or if they're mid pack finishers they stay in Intermediate. The problem with this is that you get a fair degree of sandbagging from guys who don't want to race with the experts. I have an American mate who was a pro in the 70s/80s but he still rides in the Intermediate class after 20 years of vintage racing because that's where his mates are racing. He's not interested in riding 10/10ths any more but will occasionally pull out a barnstormer ride if he knows it won't be scored towards his upward reclassification. I don't know how he knows when to go fast and when not, he's never told me that little snippet but the point is, you'll always get sandbagging when you get an ability based system. In the end, no system is perfect, there's loopholes everywhere. Until something new can easily be implemented, the age based format is easiest to operate.

[Rossvickicampbell]

Nathan - grading maybe the answer.  We run grades in WA regardless of age - whether you are on a 125 or a 500 you are in the same speed/ability group - which is also where most of my old fart mates are and has us away from the faster A graders and those going hard - or who can go hard.

Part of the reason I like racing with my age/ability is I still get a chance for a place or a win.  Yes they are few and far between but even if you split the young guys old guys in any given race besides the loose cannons you never get to see the front of the field.  We might be slow but I still enjoy seeing the checkered flag first once in a while - in my grade and with my mates. 

If I am asking too much to allow that to happen - then maybe my VMX time is over.  But I would of thought we were now big enough to cater for everything we have been speaking about here.

Rossco

[EML]

I was taking the piss on the 40min moto thing but on the weight for age thing it's a goer, especially in the sidecars as two old blokes on a newer sidecar against two young fellas on an oldie verses a dad and son on a midaged outfit would be the goods.
As far as grading goes, I don't wont to throw cold water on it but it would be very hard to prevent sandbaggers as we don't ride week in and week out to give the judges a good look at us.

[090]

So are you saying 3 classes with expert, intermediate and novice?

[EML]

With the advent of transponder timing perhaps a young genius could make a program to keep track of it all ( lap times on circuits on different bikes in classes etc...) and therefore take some pressure off volunteers to do it all. That could become a national database and grade everyone everywhere.
I'm thinking on the run here.....

[firko]

So are you saying 3 classes with expert, intermediate and novice?

Yeah Brad. Three classes but spread over the capacities you'd still have the same number of races as you would with three age groups.
It's ironic that in about 1995 Dick Mann wrote and asked me how our age group system worked as he was thinking along those same lines for the AHRMA. Before long they'd introduced an age group system not unlike ours and it's still in use today. I think we're jumping ahead too far here though. The Nats split is the main topic while the reintroducing of capacity age groups is the second point to be addressed. Changing the system further by dropping age groups and introducing a grading system is a big move and should be debated further down the line, not now.

[worms]

grading is way out there, i for one dont want to be graded and labeled A,B,C,D or Z grade, Age groups are the way to go!

if we split the era's and introduce age groups for all class's with 10 min moto's not only will we all get more bike time, the organizing club has an easier time of it.

Cheers Trev