OzVMX Forum
Marque Remarks => Yamaha => Topic started by: mx250 on September 22, 2008, 07:59:50 pm
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How they should look ;).
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/hl500rhlarge.jpg)
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/hl500lhlarge.jpg)
How they should be ridden ;D.
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/aberg771large.jpg)
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/aberg774large3.jpg)
Where they should be ridden 8).
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/aberg776large4.jpg)
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/aberg772large2.jpg)
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hell yeh ;D
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Beautiful. defiantly on the wish list. ;)
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I've got the order in ... for the frame anyways
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Beautiful. defiantly on the wish list. ;)
Hey KB you still got your mini HL ? that is one bloody clever build :)
Cmon Alison find that thread for us KBs mini HL thant thresd deserves a freshen up :)
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Found it :)
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=5109.0
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The HL 80 I think must go down as one of the best builds in the history of the forum. there is something about building mini versions full size bikes, like scale modeling./
Are you launching another project bike Bill.
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The HL 80 I think must go down as one of the best builds in the history of the forum. there is something about building mini versions full size bikes, like scale modeling./
Are you launching another project bike Bill.
Marc if i ever finish some of the ones i have on the go already it will be a miracle ::) and there pretty much standard builds .
I really appreciate bikes like KBs HL 80 as in my wildest dreams i could never create somthing that cool 8)
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Marc if i ever finish some of the ones i have on the go already it will be a miracle ::) [/quote]
Im hearing you Bill, doesn't help that it takes me an hour each way to commute to the shop.
Working on the Bimota this weekend, wheel spacers and exhaust.
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Im hearing you Bill, doesn't help that it takes me an hour each way to commute to the shop.
Working on the Bimota this weekend, wheel spacers and exhaust.
Marc you'll be ok just keep shipping to the Puki wizard,he sure is the magic man.
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Looks to be 100% original
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Yamaha-HL-500-Hallman-HL-500-TT-500-Hallman-HL-500-Aberg-TT-500-Pro-fab-Simons-Forks-AHRMA-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQafsrcZ1QQhashZitem483ed62d70QQitemZ310291869040QQptZUSQ5fmotorcycles
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I don't think it is expensive. There's likely virtually no parts to buy so very little hidden costs.
It's the bits and pieces that push costs through the roof.
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I know someone who has a genuine HL500 motor sitting in his shed. It was taken out of a HL500 many years ago. The rest of the bike was sold but he still has the motor.
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After doing the rounds to see what had appeared out of sheds, for the begining of the 2010 season at vmx on the weekend,,I came across a Yamaha parked next to us in the pit shed.. :o
The welding on it caught my eye and made me look twice :o :o WHAT is this proffessional weld job, cheyne ?? wasp ?? ..
"Nope" Steven says !! thats an HL Yamaha.... :-*
Does anyone have a good frame picture on here of one ??
Thanks A
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After doing the rounds to see what had appeared out of sheds, for the begining of the 2010 season at vmx on the weekend,,I came across a Yamaha parked next to us in the pit shed.. :o
The welding on it caught my eye and made me look twice :o :o WHAT is this proffessional weld job, cheyne ?? wasp ?? ..
"Nope" Steven says !! thats an HL Yamaha.... :-*
Does anyone have a good frame picture on here of one ??
Thanks A
That's because the originals were put together in small batches and the frames were hand made by Brian Curtis who's work (as you correctly noted) is magnificent.
When my Curtis Honda was at the platers Pat French happened to see it and commented on the beatiful work. So if Pat French (who is about as good as it gets) says the work is stunning, then for me at least, that speaks volumes about the beauty of Brian's work.
He is also a very nice chap (from the same Town that Jenson Button grew up in)
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That's because the originals were put together in small batches and the frames were hand made by Brian Curtis who's work (as you correctly noted) is magnificent.
Thanks- knowledge is but a touch of the key pad 8) I now see it was also the maganese that also has a brilliance about the work produced.
The story goes on the above mentioned bike,that the owner got three of the four that came into the Albany Port south of Western Australia,not sure on the timing though..
Something I will have too ask the owner at a latter date, as he was busy kicking over another of his Yamaha's.
2011 Big thumpers ;D
cheers A
http://www.classicdirtbike.co.uk/news/something-special-curtis-yamaha
http://forums.mxtrax.co.uk/showthread.php?t=244233
there is a Brian Curtis doing bmxer's also,dont know if its the same ?
http://www.curtisbikes.co.uk/info.html
Quote:Here at Curtis we build our frames from a type of tube called T45. T45 is a combination of Carbon, Manganese and Steel and is one of the strongest and highest quality tubes available. To top it off it's made in England! T45 is used a lot in the aerospace and motorsport industries because of it's superior strength to weight ratio over other steel tubing. T45 was used to construct the chassis on Richard Nobles Thrust 2 land speed record car. T45 is not easily available abroad which is why all imported steel frames are made from American or Taiwanese 4130 Chromoly.
Chromoly tubing also requires heat treating after any welding or brazing, where T45 does not require any heat treatment whatsoever. T45 is simply a stronger and higher quality tube than Chromoly. We have been using and brazing T45 tubing since the 1970s, and it is due to our choice of tubing, along with our reinforced headtubes (see right) that we are so confident in our frames and are able to offer such an extensive guarantee to our customers.
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. Ali....We've covered all of this previously, plenty of times actually, I can't believe you'd never seen an HL before ??? Here's a piccy of Brian Curtis and one of his creations and one of his bikes, perhaps Dave Kings bike....or is it yours Ben?
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/briancurtis.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/curtishonda.jpg)
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No ! Never parked next to one before and noticed the amazing welds.... ;D
cheers a
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That would be Daves unless theres another identical one with WP's and Fox forks out there. A bit different to the normal red versions you see.
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The trainspotters amongst you will notice that the Curtis frame is for all intents an HL with a Honda engine.
Dave Curtis is the creator of the Norton Villiers production HL. I think Flower Pot Ben has a genuine Curtis HL and a replica by our own GMC, a nice pairing.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/hl2.jpg)
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. Ali....We've covered all of this previously, plenty of times actually, I can't believe you'd never seen an HL before ??? Here's a piccy of Brian Curtis and one of his creations and one of his bikes, perhaps Dave Kings bike....or is it yours Ben?
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/briancurtis.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/curtishonda.jpg)
That is THE man holding my frame.
The bike below is Dave Kings bike
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The trainspotters amongst you will notice that the Curtis frame is for all intents an HL with a Honda engine.
Dave Curtis is the creator of the Norton Villiers production HL. I think Flower Pot Ben has a genuine Curtis HL and a replica by our own GMC, a nice pairing.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/hl2.jpg)
That's an old pic....
My original one is on the left. It has had some TLC sincethe pic was taken and a visit to Mr Hudsons as it was a pig to start. You can now start it nice and easily on with slippers (if you choose to do so) Mr Smooth is also very hand on bike prep as well as being a rather good rider and all round very nice chap.
The one on the left is a GMC and was build by the Chief Engineer at Bently motor cars who looks after the engine set ups. It had lots and lots of very nice nutand bolts...!
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A friend in France wanted one, so I asked around and found this one for him. It was just in my garage for a very short while and now lives in France. I saw it in October at Beauval and it looks even better now.
The original builder is also a very good rider and would take the bike to modern meetings and blow the modern bikes away. They used to hate it when he used to over take them by going over their heads on the big jumps. I am told he has a 'take no prisoners' riding style! (and good taste in bikes I think would will agree!)
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Too true .... next mod to mine is rare Daytona head that has been under my desk for quite a while
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/IMGP0802.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/iwataco-img600x450-1213856187yi80lm.jpg)
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Yeah, I still have Ray's HL Replica. It's awesome.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1052255/vmxstand1_1.jpg)
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Shoey's ProFab HL 500
(http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy94/HuskyRacer/HL500.jpg?t=1301352933)
One hot model, which one would you ride ;)
(http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy94/HuskyRacer/RobsModels2008_02.jpg?t=1301353041)
CD5 John Behrens flogging it
(http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy94/HuskyRacer/26135650.jpg?t=1301353109)
CD5 John Behrens flogging it
(http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy94/HuskyRacer/26135503.jpg?t=1301353203)
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Here's the original Husky framed HL prototype with Hallman, Enquist and a helmeted Bengt Aberg
Note the realistic seat height. I suspect the action shots of Aberg racing the HL are this bike. Compare the back suspension with the studio shot of Abergs original race HL posted by Graeme at the start of this thread. The factory HL has laid over Fox Shox yet the bike Bengts racing has a rear end setup similar to the bike below.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/bengtabergreplica.jpg)
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Too true .... next mod to mine is rare Daytona head that has been under my desk for quite a while
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/IMGP0802.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/iwataco-img600x450-1213856187yi80lm.jpg)
Mark, Mark, Mark, hand the head over. You've had it too long, unused and don't deserve it!! Give it to a needie home! MINE. Mate what length eye to eye are your shocks. I think you once quoted 17.5' but they appear shorter.
John
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Here's the original Husky framed HL prototype with Hallman, Enquist and a helmeted Bengt Aberg
Note the realistic seat height. I suspect the action shots of Aberg racing the HL are this bike. Compare the back suspension with the studio shot of Abergs original race HL posted by Graeme at the start of this thread. The factory HL has laid over Fox Shox yet the bike Bengts racing has a rear end setup similar to the bike below.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/bengtabergreplica.jpg)
It's Torsten Hallman, Sten Lundin, Bengt Aaberg, Staffan Enequist.
I think that bike is the first one, witch actually is a Huskyframe with the XT engine, made by Lundin and founded by Yamahaimporters Hallman and and Enequist. This bike was only tested, never raced, before the frame was shipped to Pro-Tec in USA so that they could make a new frame based on this. Aaberg only raced the Pro-Tec frames, the british production NVTframes was a replica of this, a not very good one according to Hallman.
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Mark, Mark, Mark, hand the head over. You've had it too long, unused and don't deserve it!! Give it to a needie home! MINE. Mate what length eye to eye are your shocks. I think you once quoted 17.5' but they appear shorter.
John
[/quote]
Mate, that head is a bit like my gym membership .... I have very good intentions to use it one day. The shocks are a shade under 17.5", maybe 17.25" .... my mind is a little adled on the exact dimensions, a lot of parts have gone over the desk since then. I seem to remember GMC Geoff reminding me my HL took 4 years to complete but that may have something to do with only being home 3 weeks of the year.
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Marc. be careful with that head don't go doing any port work or using high lift cam with it as I found out there is less than 2mm of material between the spring base and port . Curly
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Thanks for the tip, i will take a good looks at mine, were using Daytona high port head ?
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Here's the original Husky framed HL prototype with Hallman, Enquist and a helmeted Bengt Aberg
Note the realistic seat height. I suspect the action shots of Aberg racing the HL are this bike. Compare the back suspension with the studio shot of Abergs original race HL posted by Graeme at the start of this thread. The factory HL has laid over Fox Shox yet the bike Bengts racing has a rear end setup similar to the bike below.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/bengtabergreplica.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2007-4/1252864/Aberg%20500%20Yamaha.JPG)
I think that Bengt Aberg might have used the laid over Fox Airshox setup at some stage, but went back to the more upright Ohlins remote reservoirs. I used to be a fan of HL500s, but I am over it now because everybody seems to have their own idea of a replica that is far removed from what the original looked like. I don't think that Aberg (or even Norton Villiers or Profab for that matter) ever used 43mm forks (or 44mm Fox Forx), TLS front brake, or even piggyback shocks. The whole idea has been bastardised. I would however , like to see someone turn up with a pre '78 legal Aberg replica that looked something like the original. I think that in '77 Aberg was using 35mm Ceriani forks (or 38mm YZ400D forks at some stage) and Fox Airshox or Ohlins (or maybe even Bilsteins) remote reservoir shocks.
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Come on, give details about that cylinder head!
Is it a modified original or a special casting?
Who did it?
Are there more of them around?
Do tell!
cheers pancho.
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Come on, give details about that cylinder head!
Is it a modified original or a special casting?
Who did it?
Are there more of them around?
Do tell!
cheers pancho.
Its special head casting and valve covers made by the Japanese company Daytona. inlet port is higher than stock head and ports look more like they came off a drag racer. It was built for when SR500 racing was big in Japan. There is also a barrel that is available. Price is about $1500, but they told me they are no longer in production.
Mine fell into my hands after making a stupid offer to a shop that had it gathering dust for years.
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/i_love_music_haku-img600x450-123860.jpg)
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I read in VMX many issues ago that the European models, specifically dutch i think, used White Power shocks. What year did they stop making HL's? From what ive found, piggyback Ohlins only came out available to the public late 79 or during 1980 thats when a lot of magzine adds started showing up for the them, but the 1979 works Suzukis had them as well as other works teams i imagine so i can certainly see your point saying that a 77 or 78 HL never had Ohlins piggybacks as they were not even around then.
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I don't think that Aberg (or even Norton Villiers or Profab for that matter) ever used 43mm forks (or 44mm Fox Forx), TLS front brake, or even piggyback shocks. The whole idea has been bastardised.
Yes they definitely bastardised the early Husky framed HL, or developed it so it could win races, depends on how you see it. I blame Bengt for raiding the OW parts bin and fitting a 3 valve head, he had just lost the plot completely.
But you are right of course Aberg, Profab never used 43mm or Fox Forx ;)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/HL5.jpg)
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I would however , like to see someone turn up with a pre '78 legal Aberg replica that looked something like the original.
I totally agree that the HL thing has gone feral with people building them with no concept of history or the original geometry. I'd also like to see someone build one to the original concept. A mate is building one with 38mm Kayaba forks and laid down Fox Airshox, similar to the original Hallman/Endquist concept.
I've witnessed two seperate blokes needing a milk crate to assist mounting their HL's at CCD5 and it wasn't a good look. The closest bike I've seen to the original Aberg bike is Shoeys genuine Profab framed HL which has 10" travel 38mm OW Yamaha forks and a similar rear travel (despite the shocks being piggyback Ohlins).
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I would however , like to see someone turn up with a pre '78 legal Aberg replica that looked something like the original.
I totally agree that the HL thing has gone feral with people building them with no concept of history or the original geometry. I'd also like to see someone build one to the original concept. A mate is building one with 38mm Kayaba forks and laid down Fox Airshox, similar to the original Hallman/Endquist concept.
I've witnessed two seperate blokes needing a milk crate to assist mounting their HL's at CCD5 and it wasn't a good look. The closest bike I've seen to the original Aberg bike is Shoeys genuine Hallman framed HL which has 10" travel 38mm OW Yamaha forks and a similar rear travel (despite the shocks being piggyback Ohlins).
You won't like mine then. It's being built as the enduro that Yamaha should have made instead of the TT500!! Mind you they are simple to convert or change into the replica I guess. However, I am attempting to get the ride height right and agree the 10" of travel is about right. I'm using 43mm forks because I have a spare set like everyone else I imagine.
Mark, what about we get the head recast. I'd be happy to contribute!!
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Cmon Firko the guy on the Hallman doesn't look like he has the original laid down Fox's or 10" of suspension travel. for my money the only bike that can truly claim it represents what an HL500 should look like was the productionised NVT.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/fredXT500/HL500%20replica/ym50_doc-15-hl500.jpg)
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That's an official Yamaha poster - how much Yamaha factory involvement with NVT was there?
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I think that Bengt Aberg might have used the laid over Fox Airshox setup at some stage, but went back to the more upright Ohlins remote reservoirs. I used to be a fan of HL500s, but I am over it now because everybody seems to have their own idea of a replica that is far removed from what the original looked like. I don't think that Aberg (or even Norton Villiers or Profab for that matter) ever used 43mm forks (or 44mm Fox Forx), TLS front brake, or even piggyback shocks. The whole idea has been bastardised. I would however , like to see someone turn up with a pre '78 legal Aberg replica that looked something like the original. I think that in '77 Aberg was using 35mm Ceriani forks (or 38mm YZ400D forks at some stage) and Fox Airshox or Ohlins (or maybe even Bilsteins) remote reservoir shocks.
That's the most sensible thing I've read about HL replicas ever. It seems even real HL's have been bastardised whithin an inch of their lives. The people that do this to the real ones should be summararily executed at dawn. It's not VMX at all!!
I would dearly love to see a real one in its '77 trim however....
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Weren't the US HL500 frames made by Profab? There are several different versions of production HL's depending on where it was built, with them using different forks, shocks and swingarms.
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The people that do this to the real ones should be summararily executed at dawn. It's not VMX at all!!
[/quote]
Is there something wrong with your eye sight .... you have an official Yamaha brouchure that shows the shocks upright, you have Bengt Aberg sitting on a bike with long travel and you are still beating this tired old drum about short travel HLs. If you can actually find a 'real one' let me know where it came ffrom as I am yet to see one in our VMX community.
Also before you start preaching i also have short travel bike using White Brothers swingarm and Fox, short forks combo .... actually attach a photo of your bike for my inspiration. ::)
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Here is an original one. KYB forks, upright Fox airs. This is one of my favourite looking ones. VMX issue 2 has full official specs on the 79 model.
(http://public.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p0mKPJzbmG-3pIMQnhiDuwlBqkZ_TKR-b7vJD8UdV4bfwvCmwVI_mZ3KU1uTmW4lnmn97GvBKD5pddWsaXM6EBQ/hlgoodone.JPG?psid=1)
Weren't the US HL500 frames made by Profab? There are several different versions of production HL's depending on where it was built, with them using different forks, shocks and swingarms.
Yeah i dont think they are all the same.
The one Neil Collard had was real. A guy told me the full story a few years ago of how it got here, who brought it here etc, etc and all this stuff about that bike when it built for and raced in the Finke. He told me heaps about that bike but i cant exactly remember it now and unfortunately i dont see him any more. One day i lent him my VMX magazines and thats when he recognised Neils HL that was in the 'reader resto' He instantly recognised the bike and started telling me all this stuff about it.
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Nothing wrong with my eye sight. The bike in that brochure doesn't have the 16" of suspesion and billet everything that seems to pop up on every (yawn) HL replica that seems to be put up on here every day.
And if everybody wants to wet 'emselves so much about an Evo four stroke why don't we see any Can-Am's like Grant Hortons (is it a Sonic?) from Viper? It's a real evo bike. It seems to go pretty good. Looks good and was an actual bike you could purchase?
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Anyway. I can take solace from the fact that out in the paddock they're the easiest thing to get around (if one actually gets off the start quicker than you.... ::))
I appologise for digressing from the original thread. I'll start another one.....
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Weren't the US HL500 frames made by Profab?
My stuff up...I knew it was Profab but got myself confused. Hallman and Endquist commisioned the originals from Profab. I'm sort of right though, Torsten Hallman marketed them.
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Don't get me wrong, I genuinely respect peoples right to build their HL any way they see fit. If people want to build 'em with 13" of suspension and 43mm forks and the latest Ohlins I have absolutely no objection. My point is that I'd love to see someone buils an HL to the original pre '78 configuration for a change.
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If i was building a HL500 i'd build it to 1977 specs because that's where it'll be most competitive.. in the pre '78 open class!
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Weren't the US HL500 frames made by Profab?
My stuff up...I knew it was Profab but got myself confused. Hallman and Endquist commisioned the originals from Profab. I'm sort of right though, Torsten Hallman marketed them.
Profab didnt make Bengts actual bike fram as far as I know but made kits for the US market with so kind of licence agreement . Kits were also made in England, before , I think before the US ,they are many differences between those from the US and UK.
The original Husky modded frame was for testing and once it was sorted new frames were made for Bengt to use in the GP's.
Where is GMC?
As far as originalgoes , GMC kits were jigged from an original , The bike in VMX #2 was built back up from an original frame brought over from Europe . A Viper member has an original.
Bengt used Bilstiens and Marzoochies on the husky framed test bike but raced with Ohlins and Cerianis to win in Luxembourg .He also used works Yam forks in the Trans AMA series.
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I have just started building my own HL that will have 38mm forks( if I find them) and will try to make it look "period". Promise to post it here when done ;) after year or two
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Don't get me wrong, I genuinely respect peoples right to build their HL any way they see fit. If people want to build 'em with 13" of suspension and 43mm forks and the latest Ohlins I have absolutely no objection. My point is that I'd love to see someone buils an HL to the original pre '78 configuration for a change.
Then you'll love the bike that has recently been built by Cranky (Simon A-R) have a look at the circa74 forum you can see the build there. It's magnificent.
Rod Spry has also just finished a similarly inspired Husky project that uses 70s rolling chassis and a 510 motor. If you look I am sure you'll agree that it looks beautiful (ok so maybe not all of your will agree....)
There are quite a few XL350 era bikes coming together with for instance C&J styled frames for the Circa series and it is nice to see alsorts of new bikes being built or dragged out of the shed for action once again.
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There are quite a few XL350 era bikes coming together with for instance C&J styled frames .
Was just looking at this long tall Sally,the back tyre is a smidge distance from the centre frame and is close to being similer to a back in the day hill climber,the swing arm is loonngg ;D
http://www.hectorsracing.co.uk/
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If people want to build 'em with 13" of suspension and 43mm forks and the latest Ohlins I have absolutely no objection. My point is that I'd love to see someone buils an HL to the original pre '78 configuration for a change.
I have that on my mind at the moment and have all the bits to build it, just getting some Ducati stuff out of the way. I guess I didn't really have HLs on my mind when I built mine, I just wanted a bike that was as good as Gary's VMX cover bike.... plus or minus the OW forks.
I guess the Can Am Sonic is OK but building 4 stroke specials is a different kind of challenge to working over a stock bike.
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This is the one I tried to copy when I made my replica, exept for the 17" rearrim I thought it was pretty stock.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg206/runar500/Bikes%20of%20the%20past/2421.jpg)
More here: http://s249.photobucket.com/albums/gg206/runar500/Bikes%20of%20the%20past/
It of course was profab and not protec that made Aabergs frames, I remembered wrong..... ::)
I think the easyest way to spot a NVT from a profab is the distance from the front downtube to the crankcase, the NVT had a much bigger cradle.
Brian Curtis worked at NVT welding frames, but he also made some by himself, and they have the profab look.
I have read that Hallman meant that the NVT bikes was useless compared to the original bikes.....
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" not a good bike" was Hallman's comment on the NVT. According to him Profab did the original production run and then Yamaha decided to make a few using the Norton Villiers factory. I doubt Yamaha's own factories were set up for small production runs. I think 200 were made. Curtis hasn't opined in print at least that he created the NVT bikes. He was employed building the frames. How much input he had is open to question but he'd previously worked for Rickman. I seem to remember reading that the NVT bikes were made in two batches with detail changes. The frames apparently cracked somewhere, and I think this was later addressed.
I like the early low slung ones best, but they all look great. I've got a mark 4 Mann, even got the original tank and side panels, but the lines aren't as iconic
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Here is an original one. KYB forks, upright Fox airs. This is one of my favourite looking ones. VMX issue 2 has full official specs on the 79 model.
(http://public.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p0mKPJzbmG-3pIMQnhiDuwlBqkZ_TKR-b7vJD8UdV4bfwvCmwVI_mZ3KU1uTmW4lnmn97GvBKD5pddWsaXM6EBQ/hlgoodone.JPG?psid=1)
Weren't the US HL500 frames made by Profab? There are several different versions of production HL's depending on where it was built, with them using different forks, shocks and swingarms.
Yeah i dont think they are all the same.
The one Neil Collard had was real. A guy told me the full story a few years ago of how it got here, who brought it here etc, etc and all this stuff about that bike when it built for and raced in the Finke. He told me heaps about that bike but i cant exactly remember it now and unfortunately i dont see him any more. One day i lent him my VMX magazines and thats when he recognised Neils HL that was in the 'reader resto' He instantly recognised the bike and started telling me all this stuff about it.
The original HL used the DT400, et al, front brake rather than the MX/YZ front brake!!
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I like to see someone do one from a 77 husky.
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Using DT or XT500 front brake was popular choice as they bigger. But that doesn't make it an original HL, just means whoever built it using Hallman kit selected those bits on the day.
I think Ola's friends bike is really cool, pretty good time capsule on what was raced in the late 70s. I mean really the only bike that counts as an 'official model' was the NVT bike that Yamaha had a hand in. Any other HL is just a special that is built with whatever the owners budget and taste ran to at the time.
I mean the 77 bike is not really an HL or a model year, it was a Husky with and XT500 motor dumped in it in what happened to be 1977. Its shorter travel because that was what was available in forks at the time and pretty sure the swingarm was modified White Bros. The source of the information is Aberg, who still has the only remaining 3 valve bike in his garage by the way.
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I know someone who has a genuine HL500 motor sitting in his shed. It was taken out of a HL500 many years ago. The rest of the bike was sold but he still has the motor.
I have genuine HL forks on my bike, the Fox Forx came off an original Pro Fab framed bike. ;D
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not sure about the White Bros story, this arm looks completely different....
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/79_12.jpg)
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I think these stories about longer travel HLs being too tall is also blown out of proportion, I am 6'2" and have no problem kick starting from the saddle. My KTMs back in the day were much more drama.
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/IMGP0787.jpg)
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I know someone who has a genuine HL500 motor sitting in his shed. It was taken out of a HL500 many years ago. The rest of the bike was sold but he still has the motor.
I have genuine HL forks on my bike, the Fox Forx came off an original Pro Fab framed bike. ;D
He now regrets having gotten rid of the rolling bike. This was way before 'VMX' and when HL500's were widely known/disirable/collectable.
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He now regrets having gotten rid of the rolling bike. This was way before 'VMX' and when HL500's were widely known/diesirable/collectable.
[/quote]
Yeah i got offered the genuine one that was attached to my Fox Forx but was already building the GMC bike, never regreted it I think Geoffs workmanship is awesome and there are a number of improvements over the Pro tec frame like the footpegs. Plus Geoffs airbox and pipe are the icing on the cake.
Its a bit like buying a McIntosh Manx frame, you are buying history and craftmanship in its own right.
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Reading all the comments, I don't think there is a clear answer but considerable more confusion.
My thread on this is that a lot of people saw and loved a replica or original verison of a HL500 and fell in love with it. I'm sure at the time they didn't recognise the essential points of the bike that made up the HL500. I get excited with anything that looks different and the replica versions of the HL500 allows me to have that, and I can claim it as a "works" bike because its my version and even if you have one its a bet its different to mine.
I have several original bikes in my stable that are just that and I wouldn't dream of modifying them. I wouldn't modify anything original so the HL500 allows me to experiment. I'm not interested in building and exact copy of the original HL500! But its nice being able to get close using the GMC kit. Reading the dramas forum members have had with purchasing the C&J frames we are very lucky.
Two things come out of this for me.
1. I'll never buy an original if it came up because I wouldn't be sure it was.
2. I'll call my example something else, like an AT540 enduro and then have an original that no one else has. But knowing my luck someone will see a picture of it and build it and so the debat continues!!
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Reading all the comments, I don't think there is a clear answer but considerable more confusion.
Oh we have had this discussion a number of times.... it always degenerates into chest beating about what is real HLs and bling bikes.
Regarding C&Js, yeah as one of the people ripped off by them I fully endorse your view point of not to go near them with a long pole.
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Reading all the comments, I don't think there is a clear answer but considerable more confusion.
My thread on this is that a lot of people saw and loved a replica or original verison of a HL500 and fell in love with it.
The original bike that Bengt rode tested and raced was always being changed and developed by Bengt.
The bike that he won a GP moto on at Luxembourg in 77 is my pick as the best version .(http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab241/motomaniac_photos/img173.jpg)
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I fully agree the bike that won the GP is probably the one that most people want to celebrate. Plus the Aberg bike and RJs US 4 stroke nationals winner can be seen as kind of the peak of HL and TT500 engine development.
So tall ,long travel, shocks half way up the swingarm and big forks really represents the true HL race bikes..... not that I wouldn't build a short one for variety.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/fredXT500/HL500%20replica/HL500VMXfeature1.jpg)
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geeez :o can you imagine what the thoughts where back in 1975 when Aberg & Lunden monster yammie tt rolled up :o
cheers a
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(http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab241/motomaniac_photos/img170-1.jpg)
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(http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab241/motomaniac_photos/img171.jpg)
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(http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab241/motomaniac_photos/img172.jpg)
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I remember when those articles came out back in the day. As a 15 year old I found a near new TT500 that a old bloke in his 30's had ridden for 30 minutes and put up for sale because he couldn't get traction on it. I read the trading post add out to my mum and an hour later my dad came to me in a total out of character moment and said "Well, do you want to get the bike, I'll loan you the money". I got the bike home and let the 45psi out of the back tire. As we know the TT's never cut it, but I was beside myself when Aberg started racing the HL. I was waiting for Yamaha to go into full production with them.
I should probably hit GM up for a frame before he quits making them. But I'll probably watch it rust before I get around to building one.
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You can always go the brent J route. Cut and shut the head angle, shove on a PE250/400 ally arm and 16" shocks and get a set of suzuki fork legs. He's posted all the info.
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I suspect some of the HL's I've seen in print and photos would be a bit of a handfull to ride. With the rear jacked up high the swingarm has a tendancy to try and climb under the bike under acceleration. Add in some sharp bumps and the rear starts to kick quite hard.
I've heard that, like the Husky they are based on, HL's are not the best turning bikes around and they like something to bounce off to stop the front washing out.
Cloggy, my shocks are long because I moved the top mounts higher on the frame, I've actually shortened them now to reduce the swingarm angle. I'm starting to think that the frame does not need to be deraked but there is a much bigger handling improvement to be found in reducing the offset in the triple clamps. This came to light in the last lot of playing we did. see recent post on triple clamps http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=17891.0
I need to get a spare frame, forks swingarm etc out and put it all together and find out what shock length I think works in the standard postion.
Having said all that I'd still like to own an HL simply for they are!
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So off the top of your head Brent what shock length would be a good starting point for the Yam frame and PE arm? My Mann is very long and low with yam 38s and the swingarm not far off level. I'm getting bits sorted out so haven't yet ridden it in anger, but the previous owner won stuff on it and said it was brilliant in mud and wet grass. It looks very BSA, the frame of choice in the UK before Rickmans built their own frame. I doubt it has much more than 9" of rear suspension, there just isn't the room. It's a mark 4 made in '81 and 82. One of the very last twinshocks. On another note I was a fanatical mountainbiker for years. Recently big wheel 29ers came on the scene. Initially to ridicule since they handled like wheelbarrows, Then offset was lengthened from 37mm to anything from 44 to 52 and they handled. Thing was the trail measurement was much more important than the head angle
This could be got by various head angle/offset combos. A 29er wheel is pretty much the same circumference [including tyre] as a 21
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My HL was fun but never impressed me as much as I thought it would. It was very stable in a straight line but didn't like to turn so well. Not knowing much about setup I tried dropping the front (forks up thru the clamps) to try to get the front to bite. Wrong. In fact, I needed to raise the front and soften off the back to stop all that weight loading up the front in the corners. Once I did that, it was actually not bad. But on the whole, I never really liked it that much. I'd happily have it back just because it is an HL. But in my view it was a pig overall. As a guy at an Amcross event said after giving it the once over "Bit of a sheep in wolf's clothing eh".
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I'd happily have it back just because it is an HL. But in my view it was a pig overall. As a guy at an Amcross event said after giving it the once over "Bit of a sheep in wolf's clothing eh".
But if it had been Yamaha's replacement for the TT500 we would have been dancing round in a circle holding hands and the world would have been all 4 stroke far sooner.... if you compare it to an RM370 or 125 for that matter there isn't a discussion, compare it to stock TT500 and it is GP winner. ;D
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But in my view it was a pig overall. As a guy at an Amcross event said after giving it the once over "Bit of a sheep in wolf's clothing eh".
Oh dear, blasphemy (http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/icons/ShakeHeadSigh.gif).
I hope you are wearing your tin foil hat - you're about to be struck by lightening ;D.
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But if it had been Yamaha's replacement for the TT500 we would have been dancing round in a circle holding hands and the world would have been all 4 stroke far sooner....
Now you've got me confused. Was the world waiting on a better TT500 at the time? ???
I'd happily have it back just because it is an HL. But in my view it was a pig overall.
Hugs and kisses coming your way Graeme (and he had a real one)..... ;)
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The XT/TT was a pig from the word go, according to the test reports. They spent all the R and D on the engine. Any bike which makes the SP370 handling look good has to be pretty abysmal
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Now you've got me confused. Was the world waiting on a better TT500 at the time? ???
Of course they were, that is evident by the amount of modified TT500s ... it wasn't only Aberg who was modifying TT500s, there was a whole industry about it.
I mean lets stick to the facts instead of dumb gibes about 'real HLs', Yamaha backed the project and not only funded and supplied engines for the NVT bikes but also was running a 3 valve head development for the TT500 with Enquist. It was finally shelved because the 3 valve head was a design that became important and they bought the technology back in the house.
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So yours is a real one?
(Sorry. Stuck in my Hillbilly, inter-bred ways...)
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You can always go the brent J route. Cut and shut the head angle, shove on a PE250/400 ally arm and 16" shocks and get a set of suzuki fork legs. He's posted all the info.
That was my other plan. I have read that article adnaseum. I have a spare frame and motor, an array of swingarms, a set of 38mm forks and the obligtory yz 125 tank. Although of late have thought of building an enduro version instead.
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Found an article quoting Bob Trigg a manager at NVT stating his management designing the HL frame, that they made 300, that Profab also made some and that the NVT effort was the first to use an ally swing arm. That last might be true in Britain but....
www.classicyams.com stated Bob Trigg worked a consultant intially improving the XS650's handling and then working on the HL
This guy said 500 were made, but I think Trigg's memory is the more accurate.
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(http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab241/motomaniac_photos/img170-1.jpg)
Classic :)
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(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg206/runar500/Bikes%20of%20the%20past/2421.jpg)
Classic catastrophie ;)
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So yours is a real one?
(Sorry. Stuck in my Hillbilly, inter-bred ways...)
I think you'll find the term is in-bred Ross. ;D
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It doesnt even make a good snowman.....youd have to climb on a horse just to get on that jaloppy....looks like it would handle like one of those new Airbus 380's with the dodgy Rolls Royce engines in it...I mean, you could park 3 cars in the gap between the rear tyre and mudguard...imagine trying to stop the farker...it would be like riding a bull at the rodeo....you wouldnt know which way it would go....but
hey...everyone to their own ???...
Hey Ross, saw something funny as the day....I was out driving and this brand new Audi Q7 limo goes past me, it was red and the number plate read ..66M...I thought...gee Ross must be up here, he's got all the bling....what a show off......I didnt know you where Asian though?....flucka me...lifes just like a box of choclates....true story....si-a-nara my friend. ;D
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I have genuine HL forks on my bike, the Fox Forx came off an original Pro Fab framed bike. ;D
[/quote]
What are genuine HL forks? Do you mean pre DG issue Works KYB's as in the black and white pic above your post?
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The common replicas are without doubt the most hideous contradiction to our rules ever seen, and nothing like the real thing. But I suppose they're like fat women, there's bound to be someone out there that will love them.
K
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What are genuine HL forks? Do you mean pre DG issue Works KYB's as in the black and white pic above your post?
[/quote]
I guess the point I was making was that the HL is a custom motorcycle, virtually every one is different as they were back in the day. So say one or other combination of parts and bits is the real deal... has no special meaning.
Regarding "hideous contradiction of our rules"... I think SpecialK has forgotten the odd hybrid CR in his fleet that might have been more suited to UK twin shock rules. Not that I don't love the RC replica, just it is not always about the rules man.
I think the RM TT option has merit as well. Especially done right. Get stuck in there are 35 years of TT/XT/SR engines out there.
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/rmframett.jpg)
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I mean its probably a race winner against the modern stuff ;D
I have been offered the price of new YZ for my HL rep on a couple of occasions ( hometown is full of rich dairy farmers) but have passed, its not for sale.
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/NewOldSchoolopener03.jpg)
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The biggest problem I have with HL's, apart from the fact I think they're hideous Marc, is that if I took my big bore, air cooled, twin shock Honda which is built out of all 30 year old plus parts to a race meeting, (it was never built to race) I would be made to race the pre'85 class because the forks for example are from a single shock bike (CR480). If you took your HL with all it's freshly manufactured new, MAJOR components which have been improved, to a race meeting, you get a big pat on the back and get to ride EVO or mayb even pre'78 if you have 38mm forks. The common HL "replicas" clearly contradict the current Australian rules, but seem to be immune.
K
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I'm not a lover of the Yamaha TT/XT 500 engined specials. From my memory there was one HL500 in NSW during the '70s ridden by a good 'C' grader from Dungog who's name escapes me. He just loved it even though his results dropped badly after building it, I raced against him many times and usually managed to stay ahead but he was a better rider restricted by that bike.
Why not reserve the title HL500 for the few originals (I mean the 35yr old bikes) and call the rest Yamaha 500 specials. It must offend the spirit of VMX to have RM/PE framed or cut and shut specials called a "HL500". However well built they are. Obviously there is demand otherwise we would not have companies such as GMC and others building replica frames to such wonderful standards.
Please don't get me wrong if someone builds a special out of period equipment or exact replicas of that equipment then if they are within the rules good luck to them. I respect their mechanical ability and vision. Its another bike on the track and that is good for the sport. The same people must realise that many people do not see the HL500 as anything great and there was very little success other than by Aberg. I think this thread was started with the observation that in 1977 - 1984 there may have been 1 or maybe 2 of these specials on the tracks of Australia maximum.
As far as I can see the almost romantic attachment to CCM, HLs and numerous other period 4Ts (I am not talking about pre 70 or pre65 eras here for obvious reasons) is all about the sound not the bikes real world performance. What could have been achieved by Mr Clews if he had put the effort applied to the BSA engine and running gear into say a Bombardier, Suzuki, Honda etc 2T engine.
Yes I realise that Montesa also had very little representation on Austrlian tracks in that period and so did Maico, CanAm, SWM or even KTM etc. How many 1981 MC490 Maico actually graced the tracks of Australia in '81? All these bikes were affordable, generally available and competative bikes at the time. HLs and CCMs were not. They required very very deep pockets, a degree in engineering and performance wise were still only comparable with the others not ahead.
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The common HL "replicas" clearly contradict the current Australian rules, but seem to be immune.
K
If you are running 43 mm YZ forks then I agree, thats why I used Fox Forx, shocks are free so where, the only naughty bit on my bike is the twin leading brake. But you raised a good point, simply swap to one of my sets of Simons forks and it is pre 78 legal... what diversity in a single machine no wonder people applaud when you drop and HL off the trailer.
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But you raised a good point, simply swap to one of my sets of Simons forks and it is pre 78 legal...
Would it be? My VB360 Monty is pre78 and it's 'too good' for the class along with one of the Huskies (and others??). Presumably because they have too much suspension travel - despite it being standard. Which is something of a point of discussion in this undefined debate.
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HL's do as much for me as falcon gt replicas why people feel the urge to make a bike into something it never was slap another bikes parts on it ie the yz125 tank, personally I hate any type of replica or custom or what ever you'd like to call it.
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HL's do as much for me as falcon gt replicas why people feel the urge to make a bike into something it never was slap another bikes parts on it ie the yz125 tank, personally I hate any type of replica or custom or what ever you'd like to call it.
I'm sure that when I finish my HL500, sorry AT540, I'll be a mit disappointed when I compare it to my estimates of the bike. I've never actually ridden one. But I own an XT500 as well and I bet my disappointment will pass after I've ridden that and compared them. I too will be happy just owning a GMC based HL500 and then move onto to the next project, my YZ465H.
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If you took your HL with all it's freshly manufactured new, MAJOR components which have been improved, to a race meeting, you get a big pat on the back and get to ride EVO or mayb even pre'78 if you have 38mm forks. The common HL "replicas" clearly contradict the current Australian rules, but seem to be immune.
Why are they illegal? Let's look at the how the HL fits the Evo rules....Twin shock (tick), Air cooled (tick) drum brakes (tick), 43mm YZJ forks (tick, as they came from an Evo legal bike), frame (tick, the originals were released in 1977, and GMC are replicas of those Curtis built frames), seat/tank (tick, from a '75 model YZ125).
If I was to build one for pre '78 I could use 38mm Yamaha forks (tick as long as the travel was no more than 9") and a similar situation on the rear travel.
If it's the fact that GMC replicas are made in 2011 that fuels your opinion that the bikes are illegal, why isn't there any objection to replica Metisse, Cheney, CCM, C&J, GMC CZ or Faber BSA frames? The HL is in exactly the same boat so why is it considered not kosher yet the others are? Or do you want all replica frames declared illegal?
I don't particularly like HL's in 43mm fork mode myself but I respect that many others do like them that way. The way I see it is that the more variety in our sport, the more interesting it is. If you don't like 'em so be it......worry about your own bikes and let the HL owners get on with theirs ;).
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I'm led to believe that the current crop of replica frames have been improved from the originals with extra gussetting strengthening etc. I know it sounds like "tin tacks" but when you can't use CR480 forks (tell me how they're majorly different to legal YZ465H forks) or even rubber mounted handle bar clamps (we all know that story), why should you be able to use a new improved major component like a frame? This argument just keeps going round & round and everyone can twist the details to suit their own perspective. There are some pretty trick looking, blingy HL's being punted here in Vic, but I'm yet to see one win a race (the last 8 years) so I guess it doesn't matter in the real world. They are just big heavy, slow chinese style pit bikes.
K
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I just like the challenge and the skill level it takes to put together a special or custom. Any fool can overhaul a stock bike, even easier if you use NOS bits, but to have the patience and be able to build all the bits required for a quality special is a good test of your trade skills and something not everyone can do. To make it looks factory like the CR/XL in the last VMX magazine is something even trickier.
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Lots of good interesting points being brought up here.
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I just like the challenge and the skill level it takes to put together a special or custom. Any fool can overhaul a stock bike, even easier if you use NOS bits, but to have the patience and be able to build all the bits required for a quality special is a good test of your trade skills and something not everyone can do. To make it looks factory like the CR/XL in the last VMX magazine is something even trickier.
I'm with you Mark
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I love to see some TT 500 based bikes in pre 78 but compared to the class leading AW Maico or KTM 400 you are going to be out biked for sure.
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I love to see some TT 500 based bikes in pre 78 but compared to the class leading AW Maico or KTM 400 you are going to be out biked for sure.
I think that is part of the challenge, I have not ridden them all but ridden a few, no doubt the HL is not a class leader but on the right day with the right rider, I think an RM370 or similar would hose it down without too much effort. The special builders will always be the special builders, Rickman, Clews all bought a little something different to the table.
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I love to see some TT 500 based bikes in pre 78 but compared to the class leading AW Maico or KTM 400 you are going to be out biked for sure.
What's this about pre '78 class leading bikes ? I have ridden a couple of AW 400s and in my opinion both the '77 CR390 Husky and VB360 Montesa are better bikes than the Maico . I am not anti Maico either , because I own a few of them in different year classes, but I don't really consider myself to be particularly brand loyal to any manufacturer. I haven't ridden a '77 KTM 400 yet, but I hope to bum a ride off Brad Lewis if he takes one to CD8 . Maybe an unofficial pre '78 open class shootout is required on the Conondale pre '78 track to sort this out. A few different riders opinions on different bikes to their own is a good way to get a consensus. It would also be good to compare a YZ400D and RM370, if their owners were willing to swap rides. I can bring a CR390 and a VB360 and can maybe line up couple of guys with Maico AWs as well .There may well be a dark horse in this class in the '77 AMX 390 Husky automatic ;). I have a basket case one of these, but it probably won't be ready until CD9 or 10 . .
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I just like the challenge and the skill level it takes to put together a special or custom. Any fool can overhaul a stock bike, even easier if you use NOS bits, but to have the patience and be able to build all the bits required for a quality special is a good test of your trade skills and something not everyone can do. To make it looks factory like the CR/XL in the last VMX magazine is something even trickier.
I'm with you Mark
me too.
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I will build replica becouse I like building things and think this will give me something nice to do, Im doing it from 77 husky frame so quite alot welding will be also there. Ok I could make my own spesial too, but I will make this one first :)
Another reason for this build is the spare parts for the engine, as it will be so easy I may think its cheating. Espesially after B50 build parts will be almost free
Somebody can tell me the years of 38mm forks? and when they changed to 43mm.
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They are just big heavy, slow chinese style pit bikes.
K
You must be confused with another bike. Any special will only be as beautiful as the creator sees fit and yes some look better than others. The same can be said of any two standard bike. You get some pretty manky Red (blue yellow black white) Rockets at the same meeting as new ones fresh from their photo shoots. Doesnt mean they are all great or all manky...
Yes they can be slow and heavy, but Chinese style pit bikes, I think not! (if the chinese are making replica HLs let me know, their stuff is getting quite good)
Slow? Obviously a lot comes down to the rider. If you saw 40+ 4 strokes head into the first corner at Farleigh (yes HLs included) the last thing on your mind would how slow they were going!
Rod Spry had a fast chap on one of his JBRs (yes I know it's no a Yamaha HL, but it is a close relative) and people were awestruck (and rightly so) how quick he was on the bike.
Eating establish fast riders for breakfast on the tricked up, blinged out, read valved 490s was common place.
A fast rider on an well sorted bike is a good receipt for success whether the bike is a 2 stroke or a 4 stroke.!
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Oh and I thought that down under you called the British 'Whinging Poms' some of you might want to look at that and take a look at yourselves (runs and takes cover....) and with such venom, sorry passion, as well!
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Finally got someone to bite!
Cheers,
K
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Finally got someone to bite!
Cheers,
K
Bite? It's still early up here. Havent got me teeth in yet!
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43mm YZJ forks (tick, as they came from an Evo legal bike)
I take it that this is a typo error Firko, as YZ J models are a linkage bike and are not Evo legal. Not that it seems to matter, as there seems to be a few bikes in the Evo classes fitted with forks from linkage bikes.
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What's this about pre '78 class leading bikes ? I have ridden a couple of AW 400s and in my opinion both the '77 CR390 Husky and VB360 Montesa are better bikes than the Maico . I am not anti Maico either , because I own a few of them in different year classes, but I don't really consider myself to be particularly brand loyal to any manufacturer. I haven't ridden a '77 KTM 400 yet, but I hope to bum a ride off Brad Lewis if he takes one to CD8 . Maybe an unofficial pre '78 open class shootout is required on the Conondale pre '78 track to sort this out. A few different riders opinions on different bikes to their own is a good way to get a consensus. It would also be good to compare a YZ400D and RM370, if their owners were willing to swap rides. I can bring a CR390 and a VB360 and can maybe line up couple of guys with Maico AWs as well .There may well be a dark horse in this class in the '77 AMX 390 Husky automatic ;). I have a basket case one of these, but it probably won't be ready until CD9 or 10 . .
AW Maico's can be shit when not set up correctly, I have owned a VB and it was nice bike , I like the Husky CR, I would buy an 77 Auto if I could find one as I think it could be turned into a great pre 78 race bike. Of all the pre 78 I have owned or ridden the KTM is the best. I took Brads KTM 400 to CD last year and I think I will be taking it again this year as well. I will also have a new KTM 77 250 special that's been fitted with the fastest air cooled 250 engine you will ever ride. I would be up for a ride swap and test season for sure.
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AW Maico's can be shit when not set up correctly
Couldn't you say that about any bike?
I think you are onto something there Mark regarding a shootout at cd. Sounds like fun. I swapped at the last ride day at Nudgee with a yz400. I wasn't impressed , mainly with the light switch power band. He was impressed with my Maico. John Hafey has a super nice 390 Husky, maybe he can be part of the test. This could be something Vmx mag could latch onto. A pre '78 big bore test at CD8?
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Not now Brad as they didnt think of it first. ;D
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I must be missing something here. As I understand it HL500's were built and sold by Yamaha in 1978-79.
How can they be legal for pre 78 class racing? EVO? no problems there.
Unless profab frames are legit pre 78, as in available to joe public in 1977. Even then, production HL500 YAMAHAs as sold by Yamaha do not use profab frames.
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Somewhere ive got some magazines on articles of the 4 stroke nationals in USA in the early 80's and they were still racing and building HL500's or should i say 500 Yamaha MX bikes then. Some of them looked pretty trick. There was a Pro-Tec built one that must of had a heap of mods done to the motor by Pro-Tec and it had Pro-Tec written on the seat in big white letters and i think it had Fox suspension on it and a blue tank. Someone here will know the bike im talking about. I dont really know what frame it was though. So it seems that the HL type bikes continued on affer the official HL's were finished in 1979.
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Unless profab frames are legit pre 78, as in available to joe public in 1977. Even then, production HL500 YAMAHAs as sold by Yamaha do not use profab frames.
doesn't have to be available to Joe Public just available, it was winning GPs in 77. Replicas are fine as long as they don't deviate substantially from the original design.
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I must be missing something here. As I understand it HL500's were built and sold by Yamaha in 1978-79.
How can they be legal for pre 78 class racing? EVO? no problems there.
Unless profab frames are legit pre 78, as in available to joe public in 1977. Even then, production HL500 YAMAHAs as sold by Yamaha do not use profab frames.
Have you not been reading this thread? A page or 2 back it says how the HL's sold in the US had profab frames and the first HL's were released in '77.
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Interesting question. My understanding is that the NVT built HL500s were produced in 78/79 and the ProFab frames in the States around the same time. That means they don't qualify as Pre 78 bikes, even though the actual Aberg bike was built in 77. Here's the original VMX magazine article's text:
In late 1975, Yamaha turned the dirt bike world upside down with the introduction of the street-trail XT500C.
A hefty 138kg OHC two valve thumper which dipped into the MX model parts bin for forks and suspension, the XT was quickly cloned as a "playbike" variant, the TT500C, within 12 months. Despite losing 15kg in the process the TT was never a racer, no matter how hard Yamaha's copywriters tried to create the illusion.
An expanding aftermarket industry soon offered everything from alloy swingarms, Mikuni kits, cams, pipes and external oil feeds to trick forks for TT500s, but very few ever won races. At best TTs belched great sounds, threw large rocks and made old guys tell lies about Gold Stars which they never owned.
Sten Lundin, a motocross legend in his own right, was the first European to sample the potential of the Yamaha TT500 powerplant.
He purchased an ex ISDT XT500 prototype from an American privateer in late 1975 and began fiddling to create a motocross project of his own. Lundin started by fitting the Yamaha engine to a Husqvarna motocross frame and then took the process one step further with a lightweight frame created by USA-based ProFab to Lundin's specifications. Profab was already a name familiar to Lundin and his colleague, Torsten Hallman, for their own titanium frames, stands and other equipment for Huskies.
Lundin mated this frame to a special aluminium swingarm and state-of-the-art Fox Air Shox. The bike was to be dubbed the HL500, combining both his name and that of Hallman - the Swedish Yamaha distributor at the time.
By late 1977 the original design had further evolved.
It featured weight saving YZ hubs and forks along with dural engine mounting plates and hardware. The whole package hit the scales at just on 112kg and offered around 250mm wheel travel front and rear. Not content to taint his creation with a soft playbike engine, Lundin turned tuning ace Nils Hedlund loose on his project. The end result saw an 11:1 compression ratio, a larger 36mm Mikuni carb and changes to ignition and clutch assemblies, but with the bottom end of the tough XT/TT powerplant left untouched.
Yamaha were keen to launch their XT500 production model in Europe and realised that kudos gained in international motocross carried a lot of muscle on the sales floor. They saw a window of opportunity and leapt through it in early 1977 when Lundin and Hallman approached them for backing to fund a serious GP challenge with the hybrid thumper.
Former Husqvarna star, Bengt Aberg, signed on.
The HL500 soon earned the nickname of "the Aberg Yamaha" in the motorcycle media. Aberg finally capped off an otherwise lacklustre season with a GP win in Luxembourg late that year, but Yamaha and Hallman both elected to drop the project and would not support a four stroke team for 1978.
However the machine had attracted the attention of Yamaha's own European motocross team boss who opted to create a small production run of HL500 replicas. The Norton factory at Shenstone (UK) was asked to build the bikes using a cosmetically modified TT500 engine and a chassis based on that used by Aberg the previous year.
Although they lacked serious GP winning performance and soonearned a reputation for being harder to light up than a barbecue in Scotland, 200 HLs marched out the Norton factory doors in the first year of production.
The process was repeated in 1979 with a further run, featuring wilder camshafts, improved CDI ignitions and 38mm Mikuni carbs. Minor changes to the swingarm shock mounts upped rear wheel travel to 260mm, while adopting YZ400 forks delivered around 270mm up front.
European production totalling 400 bikes over two years was inevitably topped up in other markets with a surge in aftermarket framed specials. Many claimed either inspiration or heritage from the HL500. In the real world of racing these bikes were often on par or even better than the HL "production" machines, but very few survive to be prized as highly as the two Norton-built models.
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(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/HL5.jpg)
If you look at the bottom of the Hallman ad, posted by MarcFX earlier in this thread, it says that it is a '77 replica. I assume that this frame was available to the public, otherwise why would they advertise it ? I know that some people seem pretty anal about what is a replica , but if you turned up at a title meeting with something that looked pretty close to that picture and your wheel travel limited to 9 inches, you would think that it would be fine . I would bring a copy of the add as back up documentation .
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Well, I guess it's moot as the MoMS clearly states that the ProFab and C&J frames are legal for Pre 78.
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There is actually no arguement over eligability of HL500s in pre 78. Read the GCRs for pre 78.
It states to the effect that aftermarket frames are acceptable. It goes on to name several brands including including Hallman-Aberg.
* Sorry Graeme, you posted just as I wrote this.
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Have you not been reading this thread? A page or 2 back it says how the HL's sold in the US had profab frames and the first HL's were released in '77.
Released in 77 but were they actually 78 models? 78 models are not allowed in pre 78 class, even if you could buy them and race them in 77
was there an actual 1977 MODEL HL500?
you could buy and race a 78 RM250 that was released in 1977 during 1977 season but you cant race one in todays VMX classes as they are, in pre 78.
The more i read this, the true 'real' ones seem to be the Norton built ones with the Yamaha forks and the american ones are less so with their aftermarket forks. Thats just my thought. If i was after one it would be a UK one with stock yamaha forks and as close to looking like a factory Yamaha bike as possible, like in those brochure pics a few pages back. Not really sure about the shocks though :-\
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Going on what Grae-me just posted....HL500's are not pre 78 legal....states they where build in 78/79....the original "works" bike was raced in 77 and for 78 they decided to build a "replica" and sell to Joe public.....that'ill deflate some ego's.....I see another Suzuki foot-peg saga on the way....and its Grae-me's fault....you might have to ban yourself Grae-me. ;D.....buuuuutttttttt wait theres more.....where the American frames built in 77?...and raced in 77?....wheres GMC when you need him.
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At least this topic is actually about VMX and bikes though.
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take it that this is a typo error Firko, as YZ J
Not a typo Mark...my ignorance. I was thinking the last monoshock was the J model. I guess it was the H.
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At least this topic is actually about VMX and bikes though.
Isn't that a welcome change compared to all the womens weekly crap that's usually on here ;D
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exactly right :o :o ;)
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I think the original VMX magazine article is a little out with the dates the kits became available. I think when someone turns up and wipes the floor at a pre 78 race with an HL it is worth getting worked up .... even Aberg had his work cut out and he was a 4 stroke racer from the short travel era.
I think modern replica kits keep things alive and add some interest. Definitely the classic road race scen benefit from the replica Manx, G50, Patons, MVs etc etc. As it stands you can build an HL, or CCM for that matter without having to have too much of the original machine available. Additions like an RH frame kit in the market would be cool, anywhere there are available motors in need of a better frame.
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Somebody can tell me the years of 38mm forks? and when they changed to 43mm.
Thats easy they changed when the rest of motocross changed.Aberg and the other riders at that time used the best forks available at the time ,KYB,Cerianis,Marzocchis upto 38 mm,that was 77/78 .Once the kits became available in the US Simons forks were also used by 79 when Fox Forx's became available they were also used and by the early eighties when RJ and Leichen were racing in the 4 stroke Nats mostly Fox and KAYABA 43 mm were used as well as twin leading brakes and piggy back Ohlins.If you want to build a pre 78 bike use what was around at that time if you want to go Evo class go with the RJ, Leichen type with 43mm forks etc .
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The same people must realise that many people do not see the HL500 as anything great and there was very little success other than by Aberg. I think this thread was started with the observation that in 1977 - 1984 there may have been 1 or maybe 2 of these specials on the tracks of Australia maximum.
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Yer right ::) Who wants a twin carb Puch ? I mean apart from Harry Everts they had very little success and there were none in Australia.
Aberg was 7 years past his prime but rode the first 4 stroke to win a GP since Nicoll in 1970 , another 4 stroke didnt win until Marten s 16 years later. That makes him the only one to win on a 4 stoke in a 23 year period. What other 4 stroke achieved anything even close? CCM,KSI ,JBR ,Hagon Yamaha ? None yet all of those bike are highly desirable bikes. To go further what other bikes 2 or 4 stoke that were available to the public achieved World Championship race success in the mid late 80's ? A few Euro brands that didnt race full works bikes but none of the Jap bikes . HL's were well represented at National level in Europe .Austrlia only had a few because they were imported except for privately.
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I think the original VMX magazine article is a little out with the dates the kits became available. I think when someone turns up and wipes the floor at a pre 78 race with an HL it is worth getting worked up .... even Aberg had his work cut out and he was a 4 stroke racer from the short travel era.
Aberg carried a shoulder injury into the 77 season but still managed to podium several times before his famous win at Ettlebruck. He might have had more but for several teething problems.
The first Kit was imported into the US by Don Vesco mid 77. MXA tested a version with Simons forks and Fox spring shocks that year using the then current 4 stroke champoin Mike Bell who stated that he would defend his title on a HL.
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Any fool can overhaul a stock bike, even easier if you use NOS bits, but to have the patience and be able to build all the bits required for a quality special is a good test of your trade skills and something not everyone can do.
So how does your HL replica go out on the track against all the production bikes that us 'fools' have somehow through the grace of God or good luck managed to have cobbled together Marc?
With your obvious trade skills and attention to detail your hybrid must hose down the rest of the field on a Sunday.
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So how does your HL replica go out on the track against all the production bikes that us 'fools' have somehow through the grace of God or good luck managed to have cobbled together Marc?
With your obvious trade skills and attention to detail your hybrid must hose down the rest of the field on a Sunday.
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Living 10000 kms away from my bike does create some obstacles, the biggest one is time. However, like a lot of people bike building these days is a big part of how I participate in VMX when there is not much time to ride.
But I guess anyone who has put a 'special' together, using original fastenings (not stainless socket screws)and really detailing the shit out of it will appreciate the running about involved. For the HL not much that is originally Yamaha just simply bolts up. One of my favourite Frankenbikes is the Montesa TT500 featured earlier, making a special look factory is the real trick.
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The same people must realise that many people do not see the HL500 as anything great and there was very little success other than by Aberg. I think this thread was started with the observation that in 1977 - 1984 there may have been 1 or maybe 2 of these specials on the tracks of Australia maximum.
Yer right ::) Who wants a twin carb Puch ? I mean apart from Harry Everts they had very little success and there were none in Australia.
Aberg was 7 years past his prime but rode the first 4 stroke to win a GP since Nicoll in 1970 , another 4 stroke didnt win until Marten s 16 years later. That makes him the only one to win on a 4 stoke in a 23 year period. What other 4 stroke achieved anything even close? CCM,KSI ,JBR ,Hagon Yamaha ? None yet all of those bike are highly desirable bikes. To go further what other bikes 2 or 4 stoke that were available to the public achieved World Championship race success in the mid late 80's ? A few Euro brands that didnt race full works bikes but none of the Jap bikes . HL's were well represented at National level in Europe .Austrlia only had a few because they were imported except for privately.
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Thankyou for making my point. In case you haven't noticed there are not dozens of Puch Replicas which is the point of this whole thread. Are the CCMs and HLs highly desirerable? They are to some not to others is that wrong? You have quoted one sentence out of my post which, in isolation, is easy to make points against. I have no problems with HL, CCMs or JBRs replicas etc. But you must agree these bikes in the numbers we see today are not representative of the ERA. They were isolated attempts by small groups or companies to go against the tide of development at the time.
Aberg was a great rider and his rides on the HL worthy of everyones admiration, what you did not see was a line up of other riders to suddenly take on the HL at GP level. Otherwise the conversion to 4 strokes wouldn't have taken another 25 years or whatever and been finally brought about by political forces instead of performance.
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Aberg was a great rider and his rides on the HL worthy of everyones admiration, what you did not see was a line up of other riders to suddenly take on the HL at GP level. Otherwise the conversion to 4 strokes wouldn't have taken another 25 years or whatever and been finally brought about by political forces instead of performance.
Very sensible comment, this thread was never about the HL being the be all and end all, it just has a certain mystique, like CCMs, RHs, Maico 490s, Rickmans, it is not about race victories, just some bikes are more the sum of their moving parts and become more desirable.
As for what bikes represent a particulalrly Era, it is very much subject to geograhpy and who rode and what was available, it is kind of abstract argument, like this whole giving people the feeling of 'what it was like in the day' day is past and those that were there remember, those that wearn't probably don't care.
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this was mine for a while the ex collard bike (profab)
(http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo263/ozmaico/TT010204-076.jpg)
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It originally had Fox air shocks on it but Neil couldn't find bladders for them. He asked around local shops but no one knew where to get them. This may have been before guys like Thor Lawson in USA had them or he just didn't know where to try/ask so thats why he would have put the Ohlins on it.
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Here we go Can Am Sonic screaming out for some love for $400 .... look good with TT500 motor
loo
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/15496859-28347-large.jpg)
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Aberg was a great rider and his rides on the HL worthy of everyones admiration, what you did not see was a line up of other riders to suddenly take on the HL at GP level. Otherwise the conversion to 4 strokes wouldn't have taken another 25 years or whatever and been finally brought about by political forces instead of performance.
Very sensible comment, this thread was never about the HL being the be all and end all, it just has a certain mystique, like CCMs, RHs, Maico 490s, Rickmans, it is not about race victories,
Funny i thought the whole point of MX racing was about race victories ???
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Funny i thought the whole point of MX racing was about race victories ???
It is :), but we're talking VMX ;D.
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Here we go Can Am Sonic screaming out for some love for $400 .... look good with TT500 motor
loo
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/15496859-28347-large.jpg)
I wonder if you could fit an XL350 motor ??? ::) :P
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Funny i thought the whole point of MX racing was about race victories ???
But this is VMX and it is about inflated former race victories attaching GP status to that second you got in the Taihape farmbike class in 1983 Bill. Cmon Bill.... Aberg winning a GP not to mention the last 4 stroke victory for many moons is not to be sneezed at...... you leaving winning MX to the guys with the tatoos and the hair gel.
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I wonder if you could fit an XL350 motor ??? ::) :P
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You could but you would possibly have to butcher the front of the frame, weld it badly back together and make some really dodgy engine mounts .... or you could buy one that has already had it done to it ;D ... this is the kind of bike that gives specials a bad name.
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When ever I get on this site lately I have to double check that I haven’t clicked on www.olddribbledicks.com by mistake.
Oh woe is all that have been wronged by the fitting of later model forks to bikes.
So it’s not a HL replica because it’s been fitted with later forks?
Like it only happens to HL replicas.
If a YZ 125 A has been fitted with 250 model forks is it no longer a 125 A?
I can just picture now loads of perfectly good YZ’s up on blocks because they’ve had their wheels and forks stolen for HL projects.
Gimme a break.
YZ wheels and forks have been stolen for all sorts of bikes because they represent the best fork / brake for Evo.
And it shouldn’t take much for you Einstein’s to realize that these HL replica’s have been built to suit the Evo class and so have the latest possible parts to suit this class. You talk like it never happens to any other bike.
I agree some seem to have got the geometry wrong but that should make it all the easier to turn underneath them in corners.
Do you happen to write fairytales in your spare time bigK?
Never been beaten by a HL???
I seem to recall at Boagy’s a couple of years ago that you were imitating a Caboose while a HL was at the pointy end of the field.
Why do HL’s get talked about more?
Because they have had a long history.
From the first project bike, to Abergs win to the bike that RJ rode spans quite e few years.
I doubt that RJ felt compelled to ride with 78 model forks, he chose to use the best that were available at the time.
I rode a HL a couple of years ago, young Frank’s who rides with Viper. It seems to be put together nicely and the first thing I noticed after hopping of an 81 Maico was that the HL had a small bike feel to it. It also turned on a dime.
Anyone that’s ever ridden a XT / TT 500 will know they are heavy cumbersome things but after riding one for a while you will notice they have some nice traits, mostly in the motor. So then some suffer the desire to make it more like an MX bike, slimmer, lighter and better suspension.
That’s pretty much what Kawasaki did with the KLX, fitted a KL motor into a KX 125 frame.
NVT = Norton, Villiers & Triumph.
They had the European Yamaha distributorship, and as they funded the complete bike builds they were therefore distributed through their European network. This is why none were officially imported into Aust. in the day.
Pro Tec & Pro Fab
ProFab were a fabrication company that built frame kits among other things.
Protec was a sales type company. They used a Profab frame to build RJ’s bike that was used in the “American four stroke World Championship”
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Thankyou for making my point. In case you haven't noticed there are not dozens of Puch Replicas which is the point of this whole thread. Are the CCMs and HLs highly desirerable? They are to some not to others is that wrong? You have quoted one sentence out of my post which, in isolation, is easy to make points against. I have no problems with HL, CCMs or JBRs replicas etc. But you must agree these bikes in the numbers we see today are not representative of the ERA. They were isolated attempts by small groups or companies to go against the tide of development at the time.
Aberg was a great rider and his rides on the HL worthy of everyones admiration, what you did not see was a line up of other riders to suddenly take on the HL at GP level. Otherwise the conversion to 4 strokes wouldn't have taken another 25 years or whatever and been finally brought about by political forces instead of performance.
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There are not dozens of twin carb Puch's because dozens were not made. The market prices that a Puch or CCM, KSI, HL brings would suggest that they are very desirable.
Do you consider a greeves or a twin pipe CZ collectable or desirable ? because they also "went against the tide of developement" at a time when 4 strokes were mostly lining the start lines.
How could there be a line up of HL's at GP level when most every rider at that level was supported by an importer or the manufacturer? The Gp's were a good mix of the makes that did change from year to year a bit because of the lesser supported riders choices I agree but the HL influenced Banks to develope his bike as well as Eastwood with the Hagon and the KSI Honda.For a few years there were quite afew 4 strokes around at that level not just CCM's as before.
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I'm led to believe that the current crop of replica frames have been improved from the originals with extra gussetting strengthening etc.
More Bullshit
My frames are a direct copy of an original.
The square box backbone was beefed up as this was a common problem with the originals.
That hardly changes anything.
I have had to repair and strengthen all manner of frames over the years and now you have some petty jealousy because I have built something from new materials.
The Profab frames were, according to Motocross Action of July77, available to the public around that time.
Both Profab and NVT frames were built to the same specs and so only vary in minor detail.
Footpeg mounts and steering stops do not a model maketh
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Misc%20bike%20stuff/ProFab-frame-1.jpg)
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Misc%20bike%20stuff/NVT-HL-frame-1.jpg)
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Misc%20bike%20stuff/GMC-replica.jpg)
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Where is GMC?
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Oh he's here now . About bloody time Sunshine.
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Funny i thought the whole point of MX racing was about race victories ???
Yes you are right Billy , in the real world it is. But this is cyber racing , please dont kill this thread :D :D :D :D :D
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:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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[quote
Where is GMC?
Oh he's here now . About bloody time Sunshine.
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Sorry, been busy having a life ;D
Now I've wasted another morning ::)
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Not once have I taken a personal shot at you Geoff, only the rules as written. The current crop of HL's contradict the rules IMO, and yes when I get told told I couldn't ride an RC "replica" in EVO beside a HL I get a tad annoyed. By the way I never said I hadn't been beaten by a HL, and Webbo can surely ride well, I said I'd never seen one win a race. Calm down Geoff, I doubt my sooking about HL's is going to do any damage to your HL frame business. I hate the things for a number of reasons and am not shy in saying so, no need to take it personally. How are my tanks looking?
Cheers,
k
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Geoff, there's at least once big difference in the photos of the NVT and GMC frames...
Your photo is way better.:p
Seriously, the thing that offends me about HLs is all of the YZ125C/Xs that have been raped and pillaged for their fuel tanks. It amazes me that nobody has started making plastic replicas.
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Not once have I taken a personal shot at you Geoff, only the rules as written. The current crop of HL's contradict the rules IMO,
Maybe not personally, but I have read a lot of comments, from others as well seem to suggest that any HL doesn’t have the right to exist.
Replica frames are legal within the rules, not just my frames.
And 81 model forks and longer shocks are Evo legal so I don’t see what the problem is.
I doubt my sooking about HL's is going to do any damage to your HL frame business. I hate the things for a number of reasons and am not shy in saying so, no need to take it personally.
Cheers,
k
Just having my say.
There’s lots of models that I have never seen win anything but that’s got nothing to do with me desiring any particular model.
Calm down Geoff,
. How are my tanks looking?
Cheers,
k
I’m calm, but your tanks have just been moved to the back of the queue ;D ;D ;D
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Geoff, there's at least once big difference in the photos of the NVT and GMC frames...
Your photo is way better.:p
Seriously, the thing that offends me about HLs is all of the YZ125C/Xs that have been raped and pillaged for their fuel tanks. It amazes me that nobody has started making plastic replicas.
Actually I reckon thats a crap photo.
I think there are some plastic tanks around, but they look like crap.
I can get replica plastic seat bases now.
Eventually when it gets harder to find a tank it will be worthwhile fabricating something but at the moment a second hand tank goes for much less than what it would cost to make one.
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(http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab241/motomaniac_photos/img460.jpg)
Thats not Bengt , obviously, its Swedish rider Bjorn Casserborg who raced selected Gp's and the Swedish Nationals and probably some other international events.
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Seriously, the thing that offends me about HLs is all of the YZ125C/Xs that have been raped and pillaged for their fuel tanks. It amazes me that nobody has started making plastic replicas.
Its not the fuel tanks its the seats that are actually hard to find. So does this mean Im responsible for at least the death of 5 YZ125s ( bought a bunch of tanks when they were costing $80). I am sure they were raped and pillaged long before the tanks came off.
GMC frames, work of art and I would be happy to own another one, except 2 HLs would be overkill. If Geoff would build an RN replica frame for the TM400 I would be first in line.
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I think the original VMX magazine article is a little out with the dates the kits became available. I think when someone turns up and wipes the floor at a pre 78 race with an HL it is worth getting worked up .... even Aberg had his work cut out and he was a 4 stroke racer from the short travel era.
Here is a pic of Bengt struggling on the 4 stroke against Brads RC500! (http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab241/motomaniac_photos/img461.jpg)
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I think the fact that Aberg is clearly in front of the works RC500 in this photo says a lot about the HLs competitiveness against what should have been much faster 2 strokes with full factory build and support. :D
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No, it says a lot about Bengt Aberg. ;D
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I have a new fibreglass HL seat base if anyone want's it, or maybe I'll just smash it with the biggest hammer I have!
Cheers,
K
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I think the fact that Aberg is clearly in front of the works RC500 in this photo says a lot about the HLs competitiveness against what should have been much faster 2 strokes with full factory build and support. :D
He certainly looks good at the start, but where did he finish?
The HL was clearly the underdog, and we know that Aussies and Kiwis will always route for the underdog. Great to see him battle the big boys on something basically home built and completely different. It certainly answered a question that wasn't asked again until the rules were completely skewed in favour of the four-strokes.
Good on them for trying, the bike had a lot of mystique and that goes a long way to explain the demand for replicas. There is plenty of room for many more of them…
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I have a new fibreglass HL seat base .........
Sounds like a good start for a new project ::)........
Another HL, just what we need hey Ross (http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/icons/Dancing_Grenade3.gif)(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/icons/smiley79.gif)
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Seriously, the thing that offends me about HLs is all of the YZ125C/Xs that have been raped and pillaged for their fuel tanks. It amazes me that nobody has started making plastic replicas.
I realise that I'm echoing Marc here but come on Nathan, I'm pretty confident in saying that very few HL builders, if any have ever wrecked a whole bike to rat the tank for their HL, the donor bikes have long ago been 'raped and pillaged' for lots of other parts, not just their tanks. This old phurphy comes up all the time with us special builders. At CD5 I had one bloke tell me that it was a shame that I'd wrecked a perfectly good TM400 to make my Boyd and Stellings kit bike. When I told him that I'd bought it as a basket case from the US and that the only thing from an actual Suzuki on the whole bike was the TM400 motor he gave me one of those "Yeah sure" looks and walked away. As a known parts scrounger/wheeler dealer you well know how we get parts for these bikes. ;D
As far as plastic YZ tanks, Pacifico, Vesco and a number of now forgotten companies made YZ 125C/X shaped tanks back in the glory days. I've got a couple myself. To be frank they look pretty ordinary on an HL. My HL building mate has one of my tanks on his bike for setting up and it looks fugly. There's nothing like the real thing.
The current crop of HL's contradict the rules IMO,
I still don't understand how you find the HL's contradicting the rules? GMC has mapped out that his frames are exact copies of the original NV frames and I ticked off all of the other points in an earlier post. Nothing personal and I'm not trying to be antagonistic.....I'm just curious.
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By late 1977 the original design had further evolved.
It featured weight saving YZ hubs and forks along with dural engine mounting plates and hardware. The whole package hit the scales at just on 112kg and offered around 250mm wheel travel front and rear.
The process was repeated in 1979 with a further run, featuring wilder camshafts, improved CDI ignitions and 38mm Mikuni carbs. Minor changes to the swingarm shock mounts upped rear wheel travel to 260mm, while adopting YZ400 forks delivered around 270mm up front.
so if 9" = 228mm then an origional HL would need to be back spec'd to fit into pre~78?
i don't even care if i'm wrong, i like HL's.
so if someone WANTS to put thier HL into Evo, then whats wrong with them jacking up the suspension?
i like em & i want one :)
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i don't even care if i'm wrong, i like HL's.
so if someone WANTS to put thier HL into Evo, then whats wrong with them jacking up the suspension?
i like em & i want one :)
You can't argue with that! So when can we see it Vandy? ;)
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He certainly looks good at the start, but where did he finish?
Im not sure about this GP( the other pic) but he later won a moto and finished 3rd behind Hiekki and Roger in Luxembourg.He was then 7th overall in the world behind 6 factory riders on works bikes. He crashed in the final round and got zero points ,Noyce and van Velthoven had good results and moved ahead so he finished the year in 9th.
Final round -Swiss GP below
[/quote](http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab241/motomaniac_photos/img462-1.jpg)
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Thanks for the info Moto.
Just shows it is a real pity that Yamaha didn't support their efforts. It would have been interesting to see what they could have made of it.
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Firko/Marc, its more about the number of bikes that don’t get rebuilt because the seat/tank have gone, and are so expensive (relative to the rest of the bike).
The old YZ style plastic tanks aren't what I was talking about - nobody is going to fit daggy old deal like that onto a bike that they've lovingly built ( or rebuilt, if we're talking about YZ125s).
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500 GP points after the second last round
MIKKOLA 272,WOLSINK196,DECOSTER 195,LACKEY 164,SCHMITZ 79,ANDERSSON 67,ABERG 62 ,VAN VELTHOVEN + NOYCE 56 ,BANKS +WEIL 42.
FINAL POINTS FOR 77
MIKKOLA 272,DECOSTER 202,WOLSINK (he also crashed latround) 202,LACKEY 168,ANDERSSON 85,SCHMITZ 85,VAN VELTHOVEN 83,NOYCE 74,ABERG 62,WEIL 47,BANKS 42 ,BAUER 29,KARSMAKERS 28 ,VAN DEN BROEK 18,POMEROY 15.
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Firko/Marc, its more about the number of bikes that don’t get rebuilt because the seat/tank have gone, and are so expensive (relative to the rest of the bike).
There are about 4 of those tanks on ebay at the moment, and frankly the tanks come up on ebay far faster than Geoff finishes frames, so sorry man the evidence isn't supporting your story, anyone who wants to finish their YZ C/X are not being help up by HL builders.
I think Graemes article mentioned that by 1977 "the bike had further evolved", this is the thing where you start talking about suspension travel, the bike had no production year so would have benefited from continuous development through the season like any works racer. Plus Aberg flying the flag for Yamaha in the open class would no doubt have pretty good access to the OW suspension bin.
Not sure what susupension Gally ran when he raced an HL in the US, sure someone can tell us.
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Firko/Marc, its more about the number of bikes that don’t get rebuilt because the seat/tank have gone, and are so expensive (relative to the rest of the bike).
The old YZ style plastic tanks aren't what I was talking about - nobody is going to fit daggy old deal like that onto a bike that they've lovingly built ( or rebuilt, if we're talking about YZ125s).
Complete bikes are regularly dismantled and listed on ebay as parts, i don't think they just sell the seat and tank and then say shit what are we gonna do with the rest of this thing ;)
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Complete bikes are regularly dismantled and listed on ebay as parts, i don't think they just sell the seat and tank and then say shit what are we gonna do with the rest of this thing ;)
[/quote]
Yes and i have single handedly pieced a few of them back together at not inconsiderable cost, as conservationist and major shareholder in US Post. Heres a couple of recently orphaned motors that I rescued from being put in a Boyd and Stirlings frame ;D.
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/KGrHqVhME1fuiu80BNjU20Ig_3.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/15492064-16661-large.jpg)
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Can we have a photo tour of your garage/museum/warehouse Marc! It must rival the Smithsonian 8).
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I think Graemes article mentioned that by 1977 "the bike had further evolved", this is the thing where you start talking about suspension travel, the bike had no production year so would have benefited from continuous development through the season like any works racer. Plus Aberg flying the flag for Yamaha in the open class would no doubt have pretty good access to the OW suspension bin.
Not sure what susupension Gally ran when he raced an HL in the US, sure someone can tell us.
[/quote]
He tried works Yamaha forks in the Trans AMA but ran Cerianis for his GP succsess ( going on mag pics here)
From memory Gally rode a Pro Tec Yamaha the year Staten also did .They use KYB pro lines -38mm. Later the ProTec sponsored bikes had 43mm
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Can I ask a few questions and please sensible answers.
1. Did anyone on this thread ever buy a new HL? Theres a few oldies amongst us, me included.
2. Where any sold in Australia as production models?
3. Geoff (GMC) does the guy who let you copy the HL frame still have the bike?
Geoff (GMC) what about an XL500 based frame?? When are you building that?
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I have a new fibreglass HL seat base if anyone want's it, or maybe I'll just smash it with the biggest hammer I have!
Cheers,
K
Please dont smash it , I will take it . I always had a soft spot for those frames . That seat might just give me the kick I needed . My Husky is nearly finished , so there is room for another project. Still have some 40 mm WP forks and good shocks should not be a big problem .
Mate, I'm of the thread a bit but where do you get your Husky parts. I have a WR430 and need a few?
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Firko/Marc, its more about the number of bikes that don’t get rebuilt because the seat/tank have gone, and are so expensive (relative to the rest of the bike).
The old YZ style plastic tanks aren't what I was talking about - nobody is going to fit daggy old deal like that onto a bike that they've lovingly built ( or rebuilt, if we're talking about YZ125s).
Complete bikes are regularly dismantled and listed on ebay as parts, i don't think they just sell the seat and tank and then say shit what are we gonna do with the rest of this thing ;)
My point entirely. Many of those YZs would have been rebuilt rather than wrecked, if the demand for the tanks (and the price) wasn't greatly increased by the HL builders.
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I brought my tank for $80 on ebay???
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Cool. I'll take as many good tanks as you can supply, for $160 each...
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...because you can ;) ;D
Viva la difference 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vksdBSVAM6g&feature=player_embedded#at=166
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My mate bought one for $30 at the Goulburn swap meet a couple of years ago so they're not that expensive or rare. Picking on maybe 10 or 12 HL owners for destroying the whole YZ125 C/X restoration industry is a bit of a stretch. For every HL built a tank must have been sourced so let's say hypothetically that GMC has sold 30 HL's for local consumption and assuming that 10 of those owners bought their tanks from eBay USA that leaves 20 tanks bought locally. Compare that to the number of YZ125 C/X's sold new and you'll see that the HL industry hasn't put as much a dent in the YZ's survival rate as natural attrition and the metal recyclers.
You could say the same about the number of XT Yamahas that lost their engines to the cause or the number of Triumph Bonnevilles that donated their engines to a Metisse or Cheney. How many of us have dismantled a parts bike to create our resto? A good many including you I bet Nathan. It's the way the system works, for the strong to survive, the weak must often be sacrificed. A much bigger and more annoying extreme is the perfectly good and restorable bikes our friends in the USA dismantle to sell off as parts? It's sad but it also lets us have access to parts we'd otherwise never be able to find.
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Yeah i have generally paid $80 and had 6 or 7 over the years.
I am still convinced you could do HL rep at a reasonable price with a bit of luck. I scored almost zero hour SR miotor for $150 ..... exhaust and carb were about $200 each, I got Husky frame for $80, I still believe in the sub $5000 HL 500 rep
Wheres Ola when I need him
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/MARCBIKE006.jpg)
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Its still only a 4 banger..................
The HP to weight ratio for the 1970 YZ Yamaha at 40 HP and 189 lbs = 1 HP for every 4.75 lbs.
In comparison the 2007 Yamaha YZF 450 at 220 lbs and 50 HP = 1 HP for every 4.4 lbs.
Matching size to size the 2007 Yamaha YZ 250F at 204 lbs and 30 HP = 1 HP for every 6.8 lbs.
So after almost 40 years hardly any improvement even with an engine almost twice the size in the go fast kick in the pants category.
end post :O)
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Chris my mate that's building an HL originally started the project using a '76 Husky CR360 frame. He adapted '78 KX Kawasaki 38mm forks, a Suzuki RM/C alloy swingarm and the wheels from the donor Kawasaki. He wasn't so much building an HL as a TT500 powered Husky. He's since had a change of direction and bought a GMC frame and is building a circa '77 era HL. The Husky roller was offered to me the other week and I initially said I'd take it but I've since realised I can't keep building these things...I've got no more room, so he's passed it on to his bro who is toying with building a replica of that original Aberg test mule. That'll make two in the family....cool.
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So after almost 40 years hardly any improvement even with an engine almost twice the size in the go fast kick in the pants category.
All that proves is the numbers lie ;) :D
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Can we have a photo tour of your garage/museum/warehouse Marc! It must rival the Smithsonian 8).
Unfortunately the Smithsonian is scattered over about 6 different institutes, but will rectify that next year.
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Complete bikes are regularly dismantled and listed on ebay as parts, i don't think they just sell the seat and tank and then say shit what are we gonna do with the rest of this thing ;)
My point entirely. Many of those YZs would have been rebuilt rather than wrecked, if the demand for the tanks (and the price) wasn't greatly increased by the HL builders.
The demand for parts for all old bikes is big enough that they strip anything and everything in the US. Get on Ebay and have a look, it has nothing to do with building HL's or any other special.
Anytime i need parts for my bikes i go shopping on US Ebay and usually find what i need and in good condition because it came from a good running bike.
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Chris my mate that's building an HL originally started the project using a '76 Husky CR360 frame. He adapted '78 KX Kawasaki 38mm forks, a Suzuki RM/C alloy swingarm and the wheels from the donor Kawasaki. He wasn't so much building an HL as a TT500 powered Husky. He's since had a change of direction and bought a GMC frame and is building a circa '77 era HL. The Husky roller was offered to me the other week and I initially said I'd take it but I've since realised I can't keep building these things...I've got no more room, so he's passed it on to his bro who is toying with building a replica of that original Aberg test mule. That'll make two in the family....cool.
Firko tell me your mate didn't carve up an A4 KX to build whatever hes building :o
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Yeah i have generally paid $80 and had 6 or 7 over the years.
I am still convinced you could do HL rep at a reasonable price with a bit of luck. I scored almost zero hour SR miotor for $150 ..... exhaust and carb were about $200 each, I got Husky frame for $80, I still believe in the sub $5000 HL 500 rep
I'm all about building bikes with the lowest dollar being the challenge. I built a '96 S&S stroker Pan/shovel chopper once for $7,500. Most of the parts came out of the scrap metal bin at the local Harley shop. Built a '80 Harley Sturgis up for $4,500 sold it for $9,000 and built a 5 car brick garage (ex 4th generation brikie) on my land for the $9,000 that included all permits, water tanks, power earth works the lot. In reality it cost me $4,500. I measured a Cadillac and built it big enough to take 5 with room to walk around each one plus 9 foot ceilings. The young family that bought it off me converted it into a comfortable house. They had a building inspection done before they bought it and their building inspector said he doesn't come across too many place built this strong.
But I'm getting off topic, the point is a sub $5,000 replica HL replica should be easy. You need to do it to balance out the bikes that blow the budget. You need to always keep the build under the market value of the bike, labour not include because it's love and you'll only be watching TV instead.
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I'm all about building bikes with the lowest dollar being the challenge. I built a '96 S&S stroker Pan/shovel chopper once for $7,500. Most of the parts came out of the scrap metal bin at the local Harley shop. But I'm getting off topic, the point is a sub $5,000 replica HL replica should be easy. You need to do it to balance out the bikes that blow the budget.
Me too, did my twin cam bike off ebay for about NZD 8k .... it features 100 cube Axtel barrels and ported heads etc etc, it is built tough like an HL.
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/IMGP0823.jpg)
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Firko tell me your mate didn't carve up an A4 KX to build whatever hes building
I got it wrong Bill..Ijust got off the phone with him, it was a rough old KX125, the first of the Uni-Trak bikes, possibly '79? The bike was a shagged old rolling frame but the forks and wheels were pretty good.
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…built a 5 car brick garage (ex 4th generation brikie) on my land for the $9,000 that included all permits, water tanks, power earth works the lot. In reality it cost me $4,500.
No wonder all you brickies are filthy rich!! ;D
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Picking on maybe 10 or 12 HL owners for destroying the whole YZ125 C/X restoration industry is a bit of a stretch.
It would be a stretch - lucky I didn't say that. I was lamenting the four YZ125C/Xs that I know of (and however many I don't know of) that became unviable resto/rebuild projects because they'd has their seat/tank used on TT projects.
Nothing more or less.
The number of "HL"s would have to include the modified TT and Husky framed bikes, as well as the GMC frames, FWIW.
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(http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab241/motomaniac_photos/199416_10150154608197042_246994827041_6537904_3906329_n.jpg)
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That looks alright what ever it is.
Good detective work by the way with all that stuff you've posted in this thread.
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So after almost 40 years hardly any improvement even with an engine almost twice the size in the go fast kick in the pants category.
All that proves is the numbers lie ;) :D
Freakshow must think we are talking about building a bike to do a quarter mile. Modern MX bikes have heavier frames ,suspension components,axles,bearing and hubs thanks enables them to do things lap after lap that would break a bike of a few years ago in two pieces on the first attempt.
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Can I ask a few questions and please sensible answers.
1. Did anyone on this thread ever buy a new HL? Theres a few oldies amongst us, me included.
2. Where any sold in Australia as production models?
No,
The building of the complete bikes was funded by the European distributor so they were only distributed in Europe.
The US built Profab frames were only sold as frame kits, I’m not aware of any one officially bring in Profab parts
3. Geoff (GMC) does the guy who let you copy the HL frame still have the bike?
No,
That bike was sold a good decade ago, no idea what happened to it.
Geoff (GMC) what about an XL500 based frame?? When are you building that?
Its on the to-do list.
The Suzuki version will come first, then we can start raping CR’s and RM’s for there running gear and tanks
;D
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The building of the complete bikes was funded by the European distributor so they were only distributed in Europe.
The US built Profab frames were only sold as frame kits, I’m not aware of any one officially bring in Profab parts
[/color]
3. Geoff (GMC) does the guy who let you copy the HL frame still have the bike?
No,
That bike was sold a good decade ago, no idea what happened to it.
It went to an overseas buyer Geoff.Tony was bragging about how much he got for it.It was when the Aussie $ was down so he did very well on the conversion. DOG ::)
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Picking on maybe 10 or 12 HL owners for destroying the whole YZ125 C/X restoration industry is a bit of a stretch.
It would be a stretch - lucky I didn't say that. I was lamenting the four YZ125C/Xs that I know of (and however many I don't know of) that became unviable resto/rebuild projects because they'd has their seat/tank used on TT projects.
Seats are easily obtainable and a tank may set you back a couple of hundred but that doesn’t make restoring the bikes unfeasible.
I remember talking to a couple of guys a few years ago.
A US guy had just bought a tank from Aust. and was getting it posted to the US.
In the same week an Aussie guy had bought a tank in the US and was getting it sent over here. :o
You should be pleased to know I once destroyed a CR tank for a HL look a like in the early 90’s ;D
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Seans-TT-bike.jpg)
It took a bit of trimming to get it looking right
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Seans-TT-tank.jpg)
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This debate has just turned for the worse...farken Harley shitbox photos are appearing now....dont give him any more ammo...he'll have knobbies on the POS next and calling it a HLM (Harley looser machine)double 500...., its a replica of a replica of a replica, but still pre 2011 legal....won a race to the garage door once with a fat chick on it....shit, I can see it now.....GMC with his own TV series building fatarse replica HLM's...all dressed up in his favorite Village people oufit....ripping up and down his dirt road testing the 1200by1200by 18inch knobby for grip with his mate moto....jumping it over his dam (full of bodies of the people who bought the HLM name into disrespect)...yea, I can see it now...GMC senior and his boy Nathan Senior trying to out do him......lighten up fellas....lifes too short.......by the way, I've got a 1980 TT500G for sale if any one wants it....2 owner and a bit rough but all there $1250 takes it away or we could burn it at CD8...pm me. ;D
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DC must be a very level headed guy . The dribble is flowing equally fast out of both sides of his mouth. ;D
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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(http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab241/motomaniac_photos/199416_10150154608197042_246994827041_6537904_3906329_n.jpg)
What is this? An early JBR??
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(http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab241/motomaniac_photos/199416_10150154608197042_246994827041_6537904_3906329_n.jpg)
What is this? An early JBR??
Whatever it is i like the rear suspension geometry a lot better than the HL's.
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looks like an OTUS to me
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Nice isoceles triangle ! the rest of it -i think iam going to be sick- Burppp... :-[
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;) :D
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/funnies/image011.jpg)
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I'm all about building bikes with the lowest dollar being the challenge. I built a '96 S&S stroker Pan/shovel chopper once for $7,500. Most of the parts came out of the scrap metal bin at the local Harley shop. But I'm getting off topic, the point is a sub $5,000 replica HL replica should be easy. You need to do it to balance out the bikes that blow the budget.
Me too, did my twin cam bike off ebay for about NZD 8k .... it features 100 cube Axtel barrels and ported heads etc etc, it is built tough like an HL.
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/IMGP0823.jpg)
Mmmm almost as handsome as those HLs to ;D get in quick while the price of scraps up and you will get a return on your 8K with the weight of that forker , shit ill even toss in the worlds biggest farm bike collection to add another 25% to the scrap value ;)
Seriously Marc ditch all that shit and get stuck into that nice original TT 600 lurking in the background :) i think i have a Nos cyl for one of those .
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This debate has just turned for the worse...farken Harley shitbox photos are appearing now....dont give him any more ammo...he'll have knobbies on the POS next and calling it a HLM (Harley looser machine)double 500...., its a replica of a replica of a replica, but still pre 2011 legal....won a race to the garage door once with a fat chick on it....shit, I can see it now.....GMC with his own TV series building fatarse replica HLM's...all dressed up in his favorite Village people oufit....ripping up and down his dirt road testing the 1200by1200by 18inch knobby for grip with his mate moto....jumping it over his dam (full of bodies of the people who bought the HLM name into disrespect)...yea, I can see it now...GMC senior and his boy Nathan Senior trying to out do him......lighten up fellas....lifes too short.......by the way, I've got a 1980 TT500G for sale if any one wants it....2 owner and a bit rough but all there $1250 takes it away or we could burn it at CD8...pm me. ;D
Joan send me pics of the TT if its as handsome as you say put it on my tab ;) however you will have to take bikes in lieu of cash as im not buying anymore bikes ;)
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Nice isoceles triangle !
Are two sides equal??? It's certainly loading the shocks with leverage!
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Joan send me pics of the TT if its as handsome as you say put it on my tab ;) however you will have to take bikes in lieu of cash as im not buying anymore bikes ;)
[/quote]
Don't do it Joan you are just enabling him.... he is a serious adict that needs treatment... plus he refuses to give up any of the good stuff and you will get stcuk with a bunch of Mudbugs.
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I can see him now sending the worlds largest shipment of farm bikes accross the Tasman just so HE can get hold of a TT500 and build his HL500 thats he's dreamed about ever since he left the old Dart.....I can see the Union Jack on the tank, a custom made stepladder to hop on board, a set of rollers to start it and Kate Winslet waiting with a cuppa tea for when he gets off.....jolly good ride William.... ;D
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(http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab241/motomaniac_photos/199416_10150154608197042_246994827041_6537904_3906329_n.jpg)
What is this? An early JBR??
looks like it doesn't it? I'm not really sure.
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Nice isoceles triangle !
Are two sides equal??? It's certainly loading the shocks with leverage!
A fair bit of leverage yes but I'd guess an effective rising rate to the rear suspension
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The back of that frame is very Suzuki like......they ran 2-1 ratio.
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The lines of the frame remind me of the French BARRIGO frames. Their XT/TT frames looked very much like that in the back end.
I can't remember what swing arm they used though, steel or alloy
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The lines of the frame remind me of the French BARRIGO frames. Their XT/TT frames looked very much like that in the back end.
I can't remember what swing arm they used though, steel or alloy
(http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab241/motomaniac_photos/197840_10150153954722042_246994827041_6531416_4906993_n.jpg)
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that Barigo is quite tasty.... nothing like nickel and a bit of polished alloy/
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The back of that frame is very Suzuki like......they ran 2-1 ratio.
It does look very suzuki RM/PE like hey.
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Full 1977 GP results . Bengt gets quite a few podium and topten results beating some big names alongtheway. Other interesting results also -Banks's CCM , Gaylon Mosier's USGP 2nd Moto etc. :)
http://www.jwvanessen.com/index.php/gpresults/-1977
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Ya bloods worth bottling motomaniac.. 8)
Another fantasic website with results asked for by a few forum members.I'm sure doggy digger-RH was one.
What a line up of results in makes of bikes :P Dont see that anymore.
Thanks A
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Very interesting results with Maico 60! top 10s including 18 top 5s with 7 podiums 8) 8). Montesa gaining 18 top 10s including 8 top 5s with one podium ;) 8). CCM 13 top 10s, 3 top 5s one podium 8). HLs 5 top 10s including 4 top 5s with 4 podiums including the 1 win 8) 8). CZ also had 1 top 10. Can Am with 2 top 10s and KTM with a moto win
Be interesting to find out what were Aberg's other results DNFs or DNS? I can remember watching the results in the day but can not remember if he was breaking bikes, crashing or mechanical issues.
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A reort that read in MXA said that Aberg had quite a few DNF's from little mech problems .
I think you missed on CZ top 10 ,there was 2? and also a Beta !
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Ya bloods worth bottling motomaniac.. 8)
Another fantasic website with results asked for by a few forum members.I'm sure doggy digger-RH was one.
What a line up of results in makes of bikes :P Dont see that anymore.
Thanks A
:) :) :)
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Do'oh :-[ :-[
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Couple questions?
Whatkind of construction is in upper rear shock mounts? Is the axle through the whole bike with thick bushes at the end?
is there tiny bend at toptube?
Im building my replica replica from 78 husky and thinking should I bother changing shockmounts or not.
T
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How they should look ;).
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/hl500rhlarge.jpg)
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/hl500lhlarge.jpg)
Not sure if these b/w pics have been posted up before.... 8)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/vmx247/Aberg_HL500_1977_03.jpg)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/vmx247/Aberg_HL500_1977_01.jpg)
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http://www.lindstrom-mx.se/hl.htm
Click on till reportage to get some pictures and foreign language
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(http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab241/motomaniac_photos/226292_10150182105015909_167209720908_6806107_4973069_n.jpg)
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(http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab241/motomaniac_photos/226292_10150182105015909_167209720908_6806107_4973069_n.jpg)
Lechien?
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yes ,a teenage Ronnie.
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You two could bounce off each other all day. I will just sit back and try to keep up!
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You two could bounce off each other all day. I will just sit back and try to keep up!
Its a sign of a misspent youth Brad. I put this one up to show an original ProTec HL500 with tls drum,43mm forks and 12" travel suspension.Its Ronnie at the 4 stroke Nats Carlsbad 1983.
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Its a sign of a misspent youth Brad.
I disagree. Looks like you got to enjoy yourself watching your favourite sport not to mention tripping the globe to do so. Very cool.
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I put this one up to show an original ProTec HL500 with tls drum,43mm forks and 12" travel suspension.Its Ronnie at the 4 stroke Nats Carlsbad 1983.
perfect.
so many people just automatically think/expect/believe this bike should be a pre~78 bike {which it origionally was}
yet here's a classic example of a period correct EVO version.
i guess the bike DID progress after all :)
and we all know it.
i like HL's in all thier forms whether they be pre~78 or EVO and even though they may handle like a boat anchor {i've never ridden one}, if it's what you want then build it how you like and race it in either category.
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GMC 0024 is for sale on Marks Vintage Swap meet at the moment for 12K. Nice Evo spec build the same as the productionised NVT HL builds. I wish these old farts would stop waving the photos of the prototype laid down shock HL like they have found the Holy Grail.... they don't truly represent the winning period or productionised HL but rather a hack up job on a Husky.
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I wonder what kind of steering angle will you get with youre 17.5" shocks? on real or gmc replica HL
I got app 29 degrees with husky 78 frame, rm 400 swingarm, yz forks and "350mm shocks"
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I wonder what kind of steering angle will you get with youre 17.5" shocks? on real or gmc replica HL
I got app 29 degrees with husky 78 frame, rm 400 swingarm, yz forks and "350mm shocks"
should be 28 degrees but we can ask GMC .... nothing like a direct link to the manufacturer
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If I would put shocks of 350mm and stroke of 110mm I would get 9.5" travel, I think that is the amount of real HL`s?
If so when did frame makers changed head angle for more travel/longer shocks?
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If I would put shocks of 350mm and stroke of 110mm I would get 9.5" travel, I think that is the amount of real HL`s?
If so when did frame makers changed head angle for more travel/longer shocks?
From my understanding TT500 had 29 degrees and they sucked it back to 28 degrees on the HL. Geoff is ther expert on this subject.
The reason to reduce rake has nothing to do with shock length or travel but stability or in the TTs case getting it to turn faster.
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what similar has TT and HL? nothing except engine?
If you lift up youre rear you have to do something for the front end also
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If you lift up youre rear you have to do something for the front end also
Yes you would have to have similar length of travel at the front, frame rake has not much to do with it.
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I have 38mm and 43mm kyb and they are both same lenght, different travel.
Still I think if you put longer shocks in rear you lift it so youre head angle changes as you have same lenght in front, thats why there have to be compensate for the angle. As I dont see too much difference in frame and how the shocks are connected to it
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I have 38mm and 43mm kyb and they are both same lenght, different travel.
Still I think if you put longer shocks in rear you lift it so youre head angle changes as you have same lenght in front, thats why there have to be compensate for the angle. As I dont see too much difference in frame and how the shocks are connected to it
The PE swingarm has the shock mounting points closer to the frame than the HL so you may have an issue there. Regarding steering head angle it doesn't really change as such if you jack up the back, you are just changing the weight bias on to the steering head which exagerates the effect of the forks compressing and the consequent shortening of the wheel base.
So I would fit the 38mm Kayabas as if they are from F/G YZ or similar then they will be about the correct length. Then level the bike out and take a look at what fits, I think my bike ended up with 17" shocks which is about 431 mm, you have 350 mm or 13.7" shocks which sounds very short. Soo have a look at the position of lower shock mounts.
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/IMGP0787.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/DSCF7775.jpg)
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If I would put shocks of 350mm and stroke of 110mm I would get 9.5" travel, I think that is the amount of real HL`s?
If so when did frame makers changed head angle for more travel/longer shocks?
From my understanding TT500 had 29 degrees and they sucked it back to 28 degrees on the HL. Geoff is ther expert on this subject.
The reason to reduce rake has nothing to do with shock length or travel but stability or in the TTs case getting it to turn faster.
From the info I've found over time the HL had a steering head angle of 30 degrees with 130mm of trail. From memory a set of Yamaha YZ/IT forks and clamps have the 60mm of total offset to match these figures. I'm sure the rake and trail are the same as the Husky of the time which is what the HL frame was based on.
Apart from altering the head angle, if you go too long on the shocks you end up with a steep swingarm angle and a bike that slaps you in the backside every time you accelerate on a bumpy track as the swingarm tries to climb under the bike and stiffens the rear suspension.
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The PE swingarm has the shock mounting points closer to the frame than the HL so you may have an issue there. Regarding steering head angle it doesn't really change as such if you jack up the back, you are just changing the weight bias on to the steering head which exagerates the effect of the forks compressing and the consequent shortening of the wheel base.
So I would fit the 38mm Kayabas as if they are from F/G YZ or similar then they will be about the correct length. Then level the bike out and take a look at what fits, I think my bike ended up with 17" shocks which is about 431 mm, you have 350 mm or 13.7" shocks which sounds very short. Soo have a look at the position of lower shock mounts.
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Youre bike is much nicer than mine. But I think youres are closer to frame and more down.
Anyway as I have measured at my laboratory and I believe in numbers. I have measured 50mm difference in shock lenght affects in head angle almost 4 degrees, it surly is more than just weight
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn61/luupaa_kuvat/vert_edited-1.jpg)
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assuming you have almost equal suspension travel or suspension movement under load then head angle will be correct, try the 38mm forks and then work out your shock length with the bike height at the correct rake angle. If you use the 43mm YZ forks you may have to jack the back up higher than you would like. Depends on how tall you are and how you want it to look, also of course 43mm are not really class legal.
Then ideally you should have the shocks and forks so they have the same spring compression rate. Choose your forks then shocks last as they are easier to adjust for length and spring rate. My bike had a trip back to the Ohlins guy once it was assembled and we adjusted the length by 10mm and spring rate as part of the deal of buying new shocks off him.
I have shorter travel HL rep coming up using same frame as you, 38mm IT forks and White Bros swingarm, it will have that early laid down suspension thing going on.
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yep Its all in the angle of the dangle ;D
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VINTAGE-HL500-HL-500-/160630374666?pt=US_motorcycles&hash=item256651010a
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I've used IT490 forks on my HL. I didn't release they were different in length than the 38mm forks. I owned a YZG and YZH which had the 38mm and 43mm forks and the bikes sat the same. Yamaha altered the steering head angle by half a degree on the YZH but that was it.
Using the 43mm forks on the HL, I opted for 420mm ohlins on the rear but the back was too high and didn't look right.
After setting the bike up I eventually reduced the shock travel to 400mm and now the bike seems to sit correctly and balanced with the front.
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yep Its all in the angle of the dangle ;D
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VINTAGE-HL500-HL-500-/160630374666?pt=US_motorcycles&hash=item256651010a
keehrist were they building a chopper, good example of how not to do it, you can see from the lower frame rails the frame is not level. plus it is the earlier swingarm with shock position at the end of the swingarm .... so totally wierd looking cock up in combination with 43mm forks with longer travel shocks.
Shame with 38mm forks from YZ400F or similar could have been done as really nice example of early spec bike much loved by the 'which is the real HL?' crowd.
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HL500 was Yamaha Europe's own project. The bikes ordered from NVT, UK. The order was 200 bikes in '78 with the option of another 200 for the next year. The option was used. 1978 the bikes were built in ex-Norton factory in Andover. 1979 the production had to be transferred to ex-BSA factory in Shenstone, both locations in Hampshire, England. The total production was 200 + 164 = 364 bikes. 80 bikes remained in UK. The rest were shipped: 90 to Germany, 80 to Holland, 50 to Belgium, 40 to France, 20 to Sweden, 2 to Denmark and 2 to Switzerland. The bike was "Europe only". There were no earlier models than 1978, because the negotions between Yamaha Europe N.V. and NVT were officially started after 1977 World Championships season. The famous HL500 sales brochure (seen in this topic) is a bit funny one. The bike in the brochure is from 1979 model and the technical spesification as well. The visible identification is easy: in 1978 model, the exhaust pipe is on the left and 1979 on the right hand side of the bike. This can be easily checked from 1978 Spare Part catalogue.
HL500 was called (commercial reasons?) Aberg Replica. The Åberg's bike in 1977 was never called HL but the official name "Hallman & Eneqvist Yamaha 500 design Sten Lundin" was used. This bike was ProFab-framed with TT500 engine tuned by Nils Hedlund. This bike had 2 sisters used mainly in Sweden. The owners were Lundin's son Kenneth and Björn Casselberg. One of the three is still in Lundin's carage. One of the HL frames (all made by NVT) is now in Finland.
Sorry my Englis. B.R. Lennu Jr., Finland
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Interesting information about where the NVT bikes sold to, though I would imagine a lot of the bikes have emigrated along the way. But i think the NVT bikes do not really represent all the HL500s, just a batch run by NVT with the kit frames also being HLs with Aberg even doing the sales pitch.
What I find is it is interesting that Yamaha would alloy a kind of skunk works project go so far and then not derive ant benefit from it or productionise any ideas like the 3 valve head.... but the again they did but much later.
I guess like the YZ and TZ the Japanese were happy to let someone else do a little R&D and then make their own corporate decision on what they needed and what didn't fit their business plan. Yamaha NV had also been busy boys on some other innovative projects along the way like a TZ350 triple that was a better bike and beat the factory twins..... that project was shelved by Japan.
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/HL5.jpg)
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The bike was such a success, both scoring Grand Prix points but also a fantastic PR-project. Every motorcycle magazine had front pages and countless articles and pictures of the incredible Yamaha 500cc single cylinder bike! The sales of XT500 rocketed and Yamaha was happy! Later it was decided that Yamaha should build about 200 replicas of the HL500. (We in Sweden were not involved in this project.) These bikes had a chassis that was made in England and they were really not exact replicas. Actually they were not very good bikes at all.- Torsten Hallman
;)
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The bike was such a success, both scoring Grand Prix points but also a fantastic PR-project. Every motorcycle magazine had front pages and countless articles and pictures of the incredible Yamaha 500cc single cylinder bike! The sales of XT500 rocketed and Yamaha was happy! Later it was decided that Yamaha should build about 200 replicas of the HL500. (We in Sweden were not involved in this project.) These bikes had a chassis that was made in England and they were really not exact replicas. Actually they were not very good bikes at all.- Torsten Hallman
;)
Red where did you get that Hallman quote from ? its gold ;D Horrible ill handling stupidly tall tractors is all they are ::) and there you have it from the man himself ;) The original Aberg bike was indeed ground breaking and with Aberg aboard achieved respectible results. But as with most knock offs and as we see today knock offs of Knock offs their not a patch on the original ::)
But i suppose i still think as a racer and want to ride somthing competitive :) but if your in it to build a refection of your personality and dont care about race results then good on yer ;D
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http://www.mxworksbike.com/Hallman_Yam_interview.htm What has not been explained is just what about the bikes he did not like.
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It is very easy to understand why Mr. Hallman didn't like HL500 at all because his team had a new proposal for the season '78 with a revolutionary 4-T engine made by Nils Hedlund. The extremely light engine had a 4-valve head and had numerous innovations used some 20 years later by Yamaha amongst others. The project deemed too expensive and the proposal had been rejected. Maybe the main reason was, however, that the factory had lost its interest in 4-T mx bikes and concentrated 2-T monocross bikes only. Bengt Åberg himself liked his factory "Hallman & Eneqvist etc.) bike that much that he continued with "his" Hallman Team bike as a privateer in '79 resulting 13th in World Championships.
The factory bike had been developed all the time during '77 season. In its original shape (pictures in this topic) the bike was not long. Bengt didn't like AirShoxs's, so Öhlin and occasionally Bilstein products were used. The rear shocks had alternative fixing points in the swing and frame and it seems to me that Bengt preferred more lateral positions. See Luxembourg pictures (in this topic as well). The Hedlund 3-valve head was very seldom used. During the season Bengt's mechanic Bror "Julle" Haglund made numerous alteratios planned and tested by father and son Lundin. During the season the team got help from factory mechanics as well. They assembled a CDI-ignition and made some minor improvements. The ligter wheel hubs were assembled. In the end of the season the bike's weight claimingly was only 102 kgs, 3 less than YZ 400C. The HL project was a swede-free one. Their opinions can be told later if felt interesting.
Lennu Jr..
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Bill & Lennu,
I think Hallman's comment was about the British built bikes. He had an emotional link to the original and financial link to the Pro-Fab's. No matter, they are cool bikes and I would love to own one!
:)!
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Red where did you get that Hallman quote from ? its gold ;D Horrible ill handling stupidly tall tractors is all they are ::)
We could stand you on a box Bill, or maybe high heeled boots ;D ;D
Abergs bike wasn't the only one that did some winning, they won 4 stroke national titles in the US as well and finally the whole MX world has gone on winning on 4 strokes that weigh as much as Bengt's GP bike and are just as tall.
I think for a VMXer the awesome thing about an HL500 is that the engine is still in production, no worries about spare parts and unobtainable gearbox bits. Just shows how good the Yamaha 2 valver 500 was to start with and combined with the HL chassis you had a bike that when it was first built was a decade or two ahead of its time.
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Marc you will get no argument from me about the motor :) history has shown it is a great unit :)
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Marc you will get no argument from me about the motor :) history has shown it is a great unit :)
That good even BSA used em mate. :o
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Marc you will get no argument from me about the motor :) history has shown it is a great unit :)
That good even BSA used em mate. :o
Now you have lost me ??? dug out some platform boots from my glam rock days though , just in case im tempted for a ride ;)
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That motor was a copy of the English single MarC, the idea of building it was just another copycat japanese product, it just happened to take off and it even surprised Yamaha how sucessfull it ended up being. The 500 4 stroke single had been around along time, the nips just took it too another level. I think in its original form it was a huge winner.
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Do you still have yours Joan ?
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I do, was going to take it to the Gatton swapmeet on Saturday and swap it for a hotdog or something. Hey Bill, your aunty Lizzie is coming for a visit today, I'm sure she'll ask how her "other" William is (the one who WONT be the king of England), is there any message you want me to pass on to her? ;D
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It just a shame the HL werent easily available (in oz)and having raced a stripped xt in open motocross in 77' they were a long way from bengt's bike - its all easy in hindsight :D still good fun for 1/2 a lap !
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That good even BSA used em mate. :o
I think he's talking about the gold sr??? http://www.carolenash.com/insidebikes/bike-reviews/miscellaneous/bsa-gold-sr/ not truly a BSA built motorcycle but close enough...
The xt/tt unit is still heavier than the BSA unit single of similar capacity.
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Yeah thats the one BSA Regal .... you still see a few in Japan and they were sold as BSA.
Anyway back to the HL, its not like the early YZs were the last word in handling with most of the weight being high in the frame.... I think as well set up HL would give one a run for its money which is probably why Yamaha pulled the plug.
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I would be interested to know just what engine the XT 500 you are saying was copied off.
While I admit it is not the first ever single o.h.cam engine ever seen since Otto fell of his cycle but with its small number [as I see it] of design weeknesses, very impressive power and reliability even when stressed with mods to cams and compression it's an individual design.
For instance I don't remember seeing a more weird oil system!, but it works.
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That motor was a copy of the English single MarC
I would be interested to know just what engine the XT 500 you are saying was copied off
Yeah me too Wal :o.....the TT500 Yamaha motor's nothing like anything British, even to this day. I guess being a 500 single puts it in the ballpark but when you consider how bulletproof and simple the big Yammy is the Poms would only wish to have built something like it. Funny thing though, as sweet a motor as the TT/XT is, it's no faster, maybe even a tad slower than an obsolete old BSA B50 in a drag race......Go figure ???
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That motor was a copy of the English single MarC
There was talk of the ProTec race bike stroked to 600 that Rick Johnson raced had close to 60hp. I guess stratispheric compression and race gas a lot of things are possible. Definitely the Japanese race SR500s got some serious hp.
http://www.powroll.com/P_YAMAHA_TTXTSR500.htm
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I probably worded that wrong Poncho (not like me ;D), the breif Yamaha gave its designers was basically to come up with a 500 single 4 stroke because they could see how popular it was and the versatility it could be used for, they could see the potential and I'm pretty sure the BSA engine was the one they based their design parammeters off..size, horsepower,low vibration etc and we all know the japs do it better. The bike could be used as a commuter bike, weekend warrior, tourer, bla bla bla....that engine has powered so many diferent styles of bikes and stayed in production way longer than they could have ever imagined....Dakar wins, 500GP win, countless local MX and Roadrace wins, its probably done more miles around the world bar the mighty Honda postie bike....and as far as "pretty" bikes go the TT500 C, D, E, F, G would be up there. Theres a site you can go on and it explains it all, very interesting read. google it up boys and enjoy the read.
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the breif Yamaha gave its designers was basically to come up with a 500 single 4 stroke because they could see how popular it was and the versatility i
Yeah there is nothing really bad about the motor. But not sure the B44/50 motor was their inspiration, the BSA motor is quite a bit physically smaller and push rod. Maybe the G50 engine. Anyway Yamaha's engine designers got it right but they sure as shit didn't do it any favors over at the chassis department.
The XT chassis you can forgive them for as bomb proof collection of water pipe, but to saddle the competition TT version with anything other than the HL frame was criminal. When Yamaha knew what chassis the motor needed to win at GP level why they never developed it is beyond me.
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/GetAttachment.jpg)
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So other than the obvious electrics and a few brackets the tt was different to the xt ?
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the ProTec race bike stroked to 600 that Rick Johnson raced had close to 60hp.
The most expensive VMX Magazine on the market #4 is full of weapons of choice pg 41- and an article including the Husky TT500.
Just what the Doctor ordered 8)
cheers A
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The only 4 stroke copy of a brit bike was the Kawasaki 650/BSA. BSA must have sold the design but the truth has never come to light. Why would anyone want to copy a B50? Once it made power it was hideously unreliable and did for the engine upgrades industry what the XTand XL did for the aftermarket frame industry
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The only 4 stroke copy of a brit bike was the Kawasaki 650/BSA. BSA must have sold the design but the truth has never come to light. Why would anyone want to copy a B50? Once it made power it was hideously unreliable and did for the engine upgrades industry what the XTand XL did for the aftermarket frame industry
Kawasaki bought the rights to produce the BSA A7 from BSA. Kawasaki was didn't have the same capability to produce a big multi cylinder bike in 60s that the others had I guess. As for the B50, BSA raced the B44 at GP successfully but seemed to do very little to improve the design and address its weaknesses, but it a compact engine and not crazy heavy. BSA knew its weakness but fixing the gearbox etc would have meant re jigging and out dated 4 speed push rod motor so I guess they couldn't justify it/ the after market solutions like 3 speed box were pretty shit really.
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to saddle the competition TT version with anything other than the HL frame was criminal.
To my knowledge, the TT500 was never intended to be a competition bike. I have always belived that the TT500 was designed to be a "Play Bike" intended for use by those who wanted a reliable, easy to ride and maintain big bore 4 stroke dirt bike to play around on and do a bit of trail riding and low level club enduro riding on, but didn't need a bike that was road legal (i.e. an XT500).
I think that Yamaha got it pretty right if that was the design brief that they were working too.
CJ
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to saddle the competition TT version with anything other than the HL frame was criminal.
To my knowledge, the TT500 was never intended to be a competition bike. I have always belived that the TT500 was designed to be a "Play Bike"
Not sure Yamaha sat down an decided to build a 'play bike', but that is certainly how it ended up. That Yamaha supported the HL500 development to some degree means they had visions of doing something more with the TT500. Also the HL had won a GP so the potential was there, I would imagine it is more likely that Yamaha chose to go no further with the TT500 because it could take YZ and IT sales away.
If they had produced a 3 valve Yamaha HL500 as production bike I would say they would have sold bushells of them.
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Funny thing though, as sweet a motor as the TT/XT is, it's no faster, maybe even a tad slower than an obsolete old BSA B50 in a drag race......Go figure
Hmmm... now I know nuthin about Brit singles so I may be way off track here, but I am not sure we are comparing apples with apples. I recall a similar statement in a Two Wheels test of the SR500 in that they referred to the superior output of some old dunger velo 500.
The Brit singles were unemcumbered by anything remotely resembling muffling or intake restrictions. I'd be interested in knowing the HP figures of a standard cooking model Brit 500 and a TT500 with similar spec inlet/exhaust arrangements. In any case, serious power from a Brit bike requires some degree of fettling. How does a TT500 compare once it's been tuned for decent top end? Put another way, a stock TT500 is indeed a playbike and shouldn't be compared to a tuned race bike. How different are they once they are in similar states of tune?
As for being designed as a playbike, I have always understood that was the case. At the time, serious MX was for 2-strokes and that was generally the Japanese company line. I doubt that they expected a major sales success for a thumper MXer, whereas a playbike for the American market would have been far more successful. There used to be an advert for the TT500 that featured a cutaway of the engine etc and had a lot of sales pitch copy - I can't recall but I don't think it suggested that you'd end up winning any MX races on it. I also think VMX magazine had an extensive feature on the TT500 some time back which clarified Yamaha's design intent.
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I recall a similar statement in a Two Wheels test of the SR500 in that they referred to the superior output of some old dunger velo 500.
The early SR500s not a crazy powerful motor at approx 30hp in stock form but reliable. I think part of the reason is that early on the motors had oil temperature issues in their development and Yamaha left them in a pretty soft tune with 8.3:1 compression and gifted them with heavier flywheels.
A dunger Velocette Venom will put out about 35 hp so both bikes are about the same power and then it comes down to weight. Tuned TT500 should be able to muster a lot more hp then most 500 Brit bikes.... note I said should given it is overhead cam and a much more modern engine. But then again Manx 500 engines can 55+ hp in their modern form and were not too far behind that in the old days.
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Hmmm... now I know nuthin about Brit singles so I may be way off track here, but I am not sure we are comparing apples with apples. I recall a similar statement in a Two Wheels test of the SR500 in that they referred to the superior output of some old dunger velo 500.
Why not compare apples with apples. The B50 BSA came in a number of similar guises to the Yamaha 500.
The B50SS is the equivalent of the SR Yamaha, the B50T equates to the XT trail version and the B50MX compares directly to the TT500. There's only four years difference in their release dates, the XT/TT taking over the market niche left when BSA closed down. Most B50'MX's never saw a motocross track, they were mostly purchased as play racers, just like the TT500 was.
One of the biggest misconceptions one can make is to pile all Brit bikes into the same 'Pommy shit' category, usually by those who've never ridden a Brit bike let alone owned one. While the BSA B50 isn't the cutting edge pre '75 racer it's still a very competitive bike and when compared to others from its 1971 release year it compares quite well.
The Brit singles were unemcumbered by anything remotely resembling muffling or intake restrictions. I'd be interested in knowing the HP figures of a standard cooking model Brit 500 and a TT500 with similar spec inlet/exhaust arrangements
I'm not suure what you mean by inlet and exhaust restrictions Graeme. While I'm no authority on XT Yamahas I don't recall them having too much restriction on either end with the exception of the humungeous muffler they stuck on there. The B50T also came with a rather restrictive muffler that weighed a ton and the final 1973/4 B50MX was fitted with a giant chrome muffler to get through newly introduced US noise regulations.
. In any case, serious power from a Brit bike requires some degree of fettling.
I think the same can be said for the Yamaha too Graeme. Both engine's are vastly under engineered and can be turned into fire breathing monsters with the right bits. At the same time, in stock trim both bikes will still do a stellar job for whatever you want them to do. I'm not a blind crazy BSA fan, in fact I have no inclination to own one yet I've owned an XT500 (and TT600) and have respect for the engineering that went into them. The big lumps are strong and pretty bulletproof but having ridden Jonesy's different B50 variants over the years can truthfully say that the old Brit single is probably equally as bulletproof. Jonesy's had his B50MX for 30 years and it's never had the head off. Until recently it was used pretty regularly and I've often ridden it and find it a lot of fun. I reckon the bias against British machinery more often than not comes from those who've read about them rather than having ridden them.
I cop it about my Jag too until I give 'em a drive....then their attitude invariably changes. It's the same with old BSA's. Every year at Classic Dirt Jonesy offers one of his bikes to anyone who wants a ride. I've seen his B50 change many a stubborn opinion in the past as has his B44 Metisse converted a new lot of fans in recent years.
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Firko, I don't think we are at odds here. I was observing that there seems to be a view that for the advances that Japanese engineering offered, the TT500 was not really any more powerful, or faster, than the ubiquitous brit 500. But I wonder at the fairness of that observation.
Now, I have nothing against the Brit singles so I am not driven by some ideological agenda. Rather, it's just that to my mind, if we make the comparison fairer, what then is the outcome. The truth is that the TT500 of 1976 was not a greatly different jigger from the street legal XT. The XT was burdened with more weight, but both shared (as far as I know) the same exhaust system (with the exception of the secondary muffler that everyone removed anyway), the same carby, same valve sizes, presumably the same piston, and the same heavily baffled airbox. Later model TTs did have a slightly less restrictive muffler, and there were a couple of years where valve sizes differed, but none of those differences conferred major performance advantages.
Without knowing the state of tune of many older singles, I would hazard a guess that most would not have been restricted to the same extent. Especially if they were racers. What was the comparative form of the B50MX? Valve sizes? Compression ratio? Carb size? How much muffling and airbox baffling? I have no idea and I might be completely barking up the wrong tree, but I always felt it was drawing a long bow to compare any well tuned racing Brit single to a stock TT500, as the magazines were.
What I'd rather know, is how does a TT with a nice pipe, a less restrictive air box, bigger carb and a hi-comp piston compare. My 79 TT500F was relatively stock. I whacked on a reverse cone mega and that thing fairly flew with no other mods. It was demonstrably quicker than any of my mates' 500s, which showed that it could certainly be made quicker. Watching any well modded TT500 at vintage DT shows them to be no slouch. But I'll bet that a bone stock TT500 would not be as fast.
You suggest that a B50T equates to an XT500. Perhaps so - do you believe that on the whole their state of tune is laregly similar? if so, what are their respective wet weights and claimed power? Not to prove anything, I am genuinely curious.
My main point is that the 500 Yammie was a rugged, strong and reliable engine that with a few of the accepted mods of the day would likely be as strong as or stronger than any of the similarly tuned Brit singles. Yamaha had not particularly improved on the concept in technology terms - after all, there is probably only so far you can go with a 500cc, 2-valve 4 stroke. That said, perhaps the weakness of the head on the stock engine may have been the real barrier to outperforming the older singles?
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I cop it about my Jag too until I give 'em a drive....then their attitude invariably changes. It's the same with old BSA's.
Same with Harleys Firko, people usually bag them when they are non owners, knockers, and it is generally based of myth and legend, after you have owned one you become a legend.
So back to the TT500 motor versus the B44/50, B50MX motor may have been released not too much before the TT500 but its DNA was pretty Jurrasic, you could trace it back to the B40 where the TT500 was more the start of an era of Japanese 4 strokes rather than the last gasp of an era of British ones.
I think the B50MX required far more major bits to get it to work as a serious race tool, but it is a compact, short and light motor for a 4 stroke. If we look at what the CCM and Cheney race bikes had done to them to go fast relaibly back in the day and in the UK now, it seems like you need 3 speed box with stiffed splined shafts, updated clutch, alpha big end, ported head, B50MX cam shaft, electronic ignition, carillo rod.
The TT500 engine on the other hand has much shorter shopping list, it had pretty/very strong bottom end and much more modern head design than the B50, high comp 10:1 540 piston, cam, SR500 inlet valve and you are pretty much there. you can stroke them to 600cc and fit Carillo rod but I don't feel it was mandatory like the B50 engine mods.
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high comp 10:1 540 piston, cam, SR500 inlet valve and you are pretty much there.
Got it in one, Marc, just add 38mm Mikuni and methanol and go the rat on Dirt track, I've built 4 motors just as you describe, oh yeah, I forgot, one of the motors is STD bore,
Foss
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Good points made by everyone. I suspect Graeme thinks I was favouring the Beeza over the TT500 but I wasn't and in reality think they're both good bits of gear. I'm loath to go into a 'this engine's better than that engine' discussion as I think they're both great engines capable of performing well in stock trim or equally capable of producing serious horsepower.
So back to the TT500 motor versus the B44/50, B50MX motor may have been released not too much before the TT500 but its DNA was pretty Jurrasic,
The B50's DNA actually dates back to the C15 of the late fifties Marc. TO me the TT500 engine is the natural successor to the BSA . The Honda XR 4v being the next step in the progression chain.
I've got a mate building a serious horsepower TT500 engine for his HL and I've ridden AJ's 540cc B50 and 580cc CCM and I'd hate to pick a potential drag race winner.
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I've no experience with the unit BSA motors, but I'd have a CCM in a flash , however , in '94 when I was looking for a motor for my Sandracer that wasn't gunna cost an arm and a leg, I fitted a TT 500 motor, raced it at various places and had a ball, other young blokes also rode it at Surfair , Sapphire and Canberra ,the XT / TT motors are relatively cheap, bloody reliable and hot up bits are readily available, weight is a slight issue, my Sandracer weighs a touch under 105 kilos wet, goes like s##t off a chrome shovel and is FUN to ride. It's cost me two exh valves , two sets of valve springs, a cam chain and a set of rings since '94, the 3 other motors have been just as reliable
With the chookie framed ones, gettin drive is the problem !!, mind you, only at certain tracks, the # 59 Gally pulls like a steam train at Sapphire and Canberra but spins up at Nepean.
Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is that the XT TT 500s are a great motor, easily tune-able and as some-one else said, the standard setter of their day.
Foss
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I agree with most of what's been said. I have been a long time fan of the 500 Yammies. I was never a racer, in fact I was, and still am, the quintessential play rider. And from the day I first saw a TT500 I was hooked. I've owned a heap of them, probably one of each model plus a few of some years (at least 6 C models I think). The best was my 79 F model, but the HL I owned for a few years was the realisation of a long held dream. I still kinda regret selling it. It always blows me away seeing how well these things go in vintage racing these days, especially dirt track. That engine is just brilliant as everyone has said.
If I had the money I'd build me a short suspensioned HL based on a GMC frame with a lightly worked engine to go play rode round a few dirt tracks. I do like the extravagant HLs, but with about 8" front and rear they look just right.
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There used to be an advert for the TT500 that featured a cutaway of the engine etc and had a lot of sales pitch copy - I can't recall but I don't think it suggested that you'd end up winning any MX races on it.
I have a collection of genuine sales brochures and old magazine ads for quite a few of the TT/XT/SR500's, so here are a few quotes from some that to me show where Yamaha was aiming its marketing for the TT/XT 500;
From the sales brochure for the1979 TT500F; “… It’s great for riders who want an off-road playbike, a desert racer or a TT racer. Nearly any form of off-road riding is performed magnificently by the TT500”. However, it also says “The engine is mounted in a lightweight, modern motocross frame.”
From a period ad for the 1979 TT500F; “…and you’ve got an off-road playbike second to none.”
From the sales brochure for the 1976 XT500C; “Mount that power plant in a modern, lightweight motocross frame. … The result is a motorcycle with the same easy handling and positive feel as Yamaha’s world championship motocrossers. The fantastic XT500. It’s the perfect machine for short range touring, commuting and an off-road adventure.”
The reference to the frames being light weight, modern MX frames needs to be put into a bit of context, in comparison to many of the Japanese MX frames of the mid 1970's they weren’t that bad, comparing them to a European bike of the period is a different matter altogether.
The debate of TT500 V's BSA is a bit like comparing fresh home grown apples with apples bought from a supermarket that have been in cold storage for a long time. Yes they are both the same, but they are separated by a time period that will show one as better than the other.
The thing with comparing the BSA’s with the 500 Yamaha’s is that you are comparing one product from the end of an era, with another product from the start of a new era. BSA were an ailing manufacturer, short of funding who were in effect trying to make the best of an aging design using antiquated equipment, where the Yamaha was a fresh (clean sheet) design made using state of the art equipment by a manufacturer who was riding on the crest of the wave that was the 1970’s boom in worldwide motorcycle sales and particularly the boom in off-road (recreational) motorcycle sales in the USA . The Japanese were truly making “hay” from the newly affluent middle class that were “discovering “ the freedom of motorcycling in general and off road riding in particular.
I will admit that the only unit construction BSA single that I have ridden was a very rough C15T many years ago. However, I do own a collection of SR/TT/XT500’s (13 in total) and also a 1949 G80 Matchless. I don’t try to compare my G80 with my stock SR500. Although they are both 500cc 4 stroke singles, there are so different that they might as well come from different planets, as they are two distinctly different bike to ride and I just enjoy each for what they are.
Viva la difference.
CJ
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I cop it about my Jag too until I give 'em a drive....then their attitude invariably changes. It's the same with old BSA's.
Same with Harleys Firko, people usually bag them when they are non owners, knockers, and it is generally based of myth and legend, after you have owned one you become a legend.
Marc please dont ever compare those 2 wheeled Yank steam engines with legendary British Motorcycles and automobiles ::) yes i have ridden (under the cover of darkness) a Yank traction engine ( a couple actually as i thought the first one must have been forked :o but no apparantly thats what their like ;D ) I dont think Jag owners generally ailienate themselves from other motorist or drive like they have carrot stuck up their arses ;D
Its generally not the bike , its the wanker attitude 95 % of the owners seem to have that other motorcyclist dont like ;) Having ridden a couple i now understand its not so much an attitude as a combination of confusion , embarrassment and frustration :( Having spent all that money on the thing and an equally rude amount on the branded Village people outfits for him and her only to find that they would get to their destination quicker and in more style if they had used their Senior citizen bus passes :D
I like both BSA singles and the big Yam singles , they are both very capable Classics :) As has been said the old Beeza was fully developed where as with the Yam who knows how much more they could have drawn out of it if they continued with the 3 valve head ???
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Couldnt agree with you more Bill, most disapointing motorcycles I have ever riden, I rode them in the daylight though so it appears to not matter when you ride one. You could compare it to having Eva Longoria standing in front of you.......naked....ready to deep throat and you realise you dont have a penis anymore (sorry Ali). ;D
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Joan i rode them at night so as not to be recognized ;) You could drawn a comparison to dating a fat chick , their a lot of fun but you wouldn't want your mates to catch you on one ;D except the the harley wasn't even fun and the fat chick was faster ::)
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to saddle the competition TT version with anything other than the HL frame was criminal.
To my knowledge, the TT500 was never intended to be a competition bike. I have always belived that the TT500 was designed to be a "Play Bike"
Not sure Yamaha sat down an decided to build a 'play bike', but that is certainly how it ended up. That Yamaha supported the HL500 development to some degree means they had visions of doing something more with the TT500. Also the HL had won a GP so the potential was there,
Dont think the HL ever won a GP ??? Aberg won the first race at the 77 luxembourg GP and fiised 3rd on the day (a great achievment) but Mikkola won the overall GP and the title ;)
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Back in the day when I was a bike salesman a mechanic mate had a B44. He could take it out of the frame, rebuild it and put it back in inside 3 hours. This was born of long practice.
The 500 could trace it's lineage back to the Triumph Terrier. It was cheap and could be built with knackered preworld war 2 machinery. No mechanical adept would consider going round the world on one. Getting to Canvey Island and back was an achievement
Jap singles were decades ahead in terms of design and build quality. Thousands went through Africa on all manner of jap singles.
When after 18 years I finally sold my AJS and bought a SP400 I couldn't quite believe the flogging it would take. I also couldn't see why it was necessary for wheel and swing arm bearings to last months. I'd never even adjusted any of those in the previous 20. Kawasaki copied the A10.
Yamaha spent nearly all their budget on making the engine last. The frame was an afterthought.
The KLX was the first jap 4stroke single to address handling
Jeff Smith, talking about his time with Rotax, tried to get them to see that an overhead cam aircooled motor was going to be heavy and carry it's weight high. He said for motocross back then you didn't want revs, and that pushrods were the way to go as they made adequate torque, were light and didn't have cooling problems. The B50 had been developed on the back of scrambling . The yam was designed as a road motor.
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Its generally not the bike , its the wanker attitude 95 % of the owners seem to have that other motorcyclist dont like ;) Having ridden a couple i now understand its not so much an attitude as a combination of confusion , embarrassment and frustration
As has been said the old Beeza was fully developed where as with the Yam who knows how much more they could have drawn out of it if they continued with the 3 valve head ???
Hey i resemble those remarks, still we will leave the Harley discussion until Bill has straddled my hog. Gunna be rude mate;D
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/MARCBIKE008.jpg)
Anywayz back to the TT500 Bill, I think Yamaha did the 3 valve thing on the TT500 motor and then suddenly realized its potential and the idea got whipped back to Japan to pop up later in the FZ road bikes.
I think for a lot of 4 strokes compression is the way forward, Wiseco's awesome bang for the buck 540cc piston kit gives quite a bit more compression and that's where most of the zap comes from. Popular build in Japan is the SR400 bottom end so bike is still legal with big piston.... gives short stroke 500, I am heading in that direction with my Daytona high port head engine. It is heading to be the motor in my HL with 10.5:1 and ports like a top fuel dragster. 8)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/iwataco-img600x450-1213856197d9s-1.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/MARCBIKE006.jpg)
have cute B44 motor in the works for my Cheney
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/IMGP0849.jpg)
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Marc i did say 95% of owners ;D i will be happy to make myself available for a test ride ;)
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Hi all!
My frame project is little bit closer to finish now, got also one australian guy make me swingarm ::) . im starting slowly to do engine rebuild.
Here must be lot of knoledge of these engines and how to make them go.
Im planning on using my dellorto 38mm and gettin,g head ported for that. Othervise i dont have an idea what would be good cam? Do i need tighter valve springs, i have sr head so i think using original valve size. I dont want anything extreme, just good reliable power for mx, maybe +40hp and good torque. Anybody with good basic ideas?
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn61/luupaa_kuvat/94d5a3f0b8b90ff8b2c29fdf6e0d348c.jpg)
Little disapointed now that i didnt do it all by myself, as i used hva frame i had to make tubes that go to shock mounts bend too much, doesnt look so nice, also im using hva geometry. We will see how it comes, maybe i have to order frame also from australia :)
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Couldnt agree with you more Bill, most disapointing motorcycles I have ever riden, I rode them in the daylight though so it appears to not matter when you ride one.
Gee you blokes are harsh. I've been riding those old boat anchors for 35 years.
Your missing a few points. Slow, well compared to a turbocharged Hyabusa, everything is slow. Most people don't put Harley's into perspective, the original design is to carry two people and a lot of luggage ( Hence torque over eye watering acceleration.) for thousands of miles comfortably across American highways, and they do that very well. If your trying to cut fast lap times or compare them to something they are not, you will be very disapointed.
Go take a new Street glide for a run up the highway.
The irony is, I like them because they feel like the big road bike version of my favourite old dirt bike, the TT500.
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Couldnt agree with you more Bill, most disapointing motorcycles I have ever riden, I rode them in the daylight though so it appears to not matter when you ride one.
Gee you blokes are harsh. I've been riding those old boat anchors for 35 years.
Your missing a few points. Slow, well compared to a turbocharged Hyabusa, everything is slow. Most people don't put Harley's into perspective, the original design is to carry two people and a lot of luggage ( Hence torque over eye watering acceleration.) for thousands of miles comfortably across American highways, and they do that very well. If your trying to cut fast lap times or compare them to something they are not, you will be very disapointed.
Go take a new Street glide for a run up the highway.
The irony is, I like them because they feel like the big road bike version of my favourite old dirt bike, the TT500.
Bloody spot on dude ;) you buy a bike to suit your needs and purpose ;) you wouldnt buy a macio 490 to round up the cows to milk ;D
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A Maico wouldn't be reliable enough. The cows need to be rounded up at the same time of the day everyday.
Cheers, Grahame
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[/quote]Bloody spot on dude ;) you buy a bike to suit your needs and purpose ;) you wouldnt buy a macio 490 to round up the cows to milk ;D
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The irony in that is my TT500 and my Canam Sonic were both originaly bought by farmers to round up cows.
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While I agree there is a bit too much levity in some of these vintage racing classes, and especially what the "was a big name back in 19xx" are allowed to get away with.
I think certain concessions need to be made to certain parts on the big that don't necessarily make the bike go faster, but are needed to make a decent replica. Things like Fox air shocks, forx , simons forks etc are unobtanium for us mere mortals. only so many were made in the first place and you definitely don't see them popping uop on ebay all the time. Sure certain big names will build a bike and have all those trick parts on them, but they tend to be only passed about the 'in crowd' when they do come up for sale.
They should allow thing like mid 80s YZ for example 43mm forks or whatever the other big 3 makes have that fits easily. rear shocks should be free, I think the air shocks are actually worse than a normal shock because as they get hotter the spring rate increases. so a good dialed in set of ohlins could actually be better here. Things liike brakes should be whatever you can fit / adapt as if something makes a bike safer, it should not be a controlled item. I agree some of these bikes are looking silly with their way-higher-than-original suspension stance, and the worst offender I saw recently was a poweroll kitted 74 XL350 that looked like it was trying to immitate a CR 500..
But I digress,
more bums (including some of us LOL) on seats out there can only be good for the sport no matter whatg the bike looks like.
Some of these bikes for us are like living our dreams with the steads that our heroes rode back in the day, that we couldn't afford back then, and still really can't now lol
Take it easy all