OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Bike Talk => Topic started by: Tahitian_Red on September 26, 2013, 06:48:31 am
-
So there is Pre-85 and Pre-90, what is the next date to make the technology break? Pre-Aluminum Frame ('97)? Other than the frame material 2 stroke technology has been asleep at the wheel for a couple of decades. (although you could argue aluminum frames are a step backwards)
-
Pre 2000.....not much happened to 2 strokes but you had the beginning of the current 4 stroke scene. The 90's had all those wonderful European 4 strokes.....Husky 410/610...Husaberg 400/501/600's....Vertimatti's, VOR's, TM,s, KTM's etc and some wonderful big bore 2 stroke's.....Husky 300/360's....KTM 300/360/380's. The only Jap 4 stroke was the mighty Yamaha YZ400F. Those 400F's are becoming collector item's already.
-
Pre 2000.....not much happened to 2 strokes but you had the beginning of the current 4 stroke scene. The 90's had all those wonderful European 4 strokes.....Husky 410/610...Husaberg 400/501/600's....Vertimatti's, VOR's, TM,s, KTM's etc and some wonderful big bore 2 stroke's.....Husky 300/360's....KTM 300/360/380's. The only Jap 4 stroke was the mighty Yamaha YZ400F. Those 400F's are becoming collector item's already.
If you can agree to the significance of these bikes and this era now, what are your thoughts on them being race classes in the near future???
-
I think it will happen but it's a few years away yet.....a lot of people haven't got there head around pre90 yet.
-
If you can agree to the significance of these bikes and this era now, what are your thoughts on them being race classes in the near future???
Pre 85 isn't running anything near half of its potential and as Davey says, punters are just starting to get their heads around pre 90 so it would be a swan dive into disaster to introduce (or even consider ) any newer cutoff areas for at least five years. Every time I argue against these new classes I get attacked by the usual antagonists for being an old dinosaur clinging to the pre 75 dream and afraid of change, but the truth is that I have no problem whatsoever with new classes being introduced, my problem is with those classes being introduced too soon. Until the existing classes are hosting full fields in all capacities we need to concentrate on and perfect the divisions we have already. The cancellation of the Post Classic Nats early this year is evidence enough that there are enough problems within the Post Classic era to deal with without adding new fuel to the fire.
-
Hi,
pre 85 will explode in popularity when they change it to age group racing , there is probably twice as many bikes ,and riders that can be used in pre 85 age group racing ,as compared with Evo,
Nothing was of real importance regarding technology happened probably from water cooling/single shock until the "modern" four strokes arrived.
ps, I need age group racing for pre 85, I have to get a bike with suspension, maybe pre 85 , it hurts too much on a earlier bike , "I'm trying not to think about the next breaking point "
cheers
-
I'm selling off a number of my bikes and once I get down to just a few I would like to buy a (relatively) newer bike that I could ride recreationally and still be able to get back into "Vintage" racing (what ever that will evolve to) at some future date. So, I'm trying to get a read on what year bike it should be (something in the 90's).
I should probably just give it up for good and go back to playing golf, but it is hard to walk away totally. :(
-
Hi,
pre 85 will explode in popularity when they change it to age group racing , there is probably twice as many bikes ,and riders that can be used in pre 85 age group racing ,as compared with Evo,
Nothing was of real importance regarding technology happened probably from water cooling/single shock until the "modern" four strokes arrived.
ps, I need age group racing for pre 85, I have to get a bike with suspension, maybe pre 85 , it hurts too much on a earlier bike , "I'm trying not to think about the next breaking point "
cheers
The 1989 Honda CR's won the war. How much difference in design between a 2014 KTM 250SX and a 1989 Honda CR250? Performance wise the KTM has it beat, but really it doesn't look much different in the design systems.
-
So there is Pre-85 and Pre-90, what is the next date to make the technology break? Pre-Aluminum Frame ('97)? Other than the frame material 2 stroke technology has been asleep at the wheel for a couple of decades. (although you could argue aluminum frames are a step backwards)
Two stroke development continued untill 2007 just not by Japan Inc.
-
I should probably just give it up for good and go back to playing golf, but it is hard to walk away totally. :(
Mate, you'll get your mojo back. Your reaction to your health scare is natural and you'd be an idiot if it didn't get you thinking. I went through a similar interest funk when I got sick but slowly and carefully I'm getting my health back in order and will be soon making a bit of a low key racing comeback. I'll be slow but I don't really care because my being back on board my bike is proving to myself that I wasn't going to let a health setback stop me from being involved in something I love. I've never met you Jay but I've picked up a vibe from your posts on here that building the bikes is as important a part as actually racing them...it's therapeutic, good for the soul, so keep working on the bikes, sell off the ones you don't have an attachment to and get yourself healthy again. The attitude will change....trust me on that bit of insight 8). Golf is boring. My clubs are gathering dust up the back of the garage.
-
So there is Pre-85 and Pre-90, what is the next date to make the technology break? Pre-Aluminum Frame ('97)? Other than the frame material 2 stroke technology has been asleep at the wheel for a couple of decades. (although you could argue aluminum frames are a step backwards)
LOL. just looking at what you currently own Red, lot of nice bikes there mate. IMO anything from 1994 is good in 2 stroke,maybe even a 2st Husky, BUT a 1994 Ktm 250sx with a 300 kit on it is just SENSATIONAL, especially for us "older" blokes, easy to ride, plenty of parts available, still has a linkage as opposed to PDS , is a bit different and more than affordable over there, for that matter '92 is a excellent sx as well, even the OR models are good for what you want.
This is my thoughts for something decent for "pre 95" not sure if that is relevant to where you are though.
cheers,
Kt.
-
Red, I'm in a similar sort of boat to you, had a bad accident 5 months ago and probably have another 6 at least till I'm on the mended side.....I'm a mechanic by trade and am finding it very hard not being able to do things that came so easily to me before. I don't even know if I will ride/race again but in the meantime I'm trying to finish off a couple of bikes that have dragged on for too long. I also have a very trick bike to restore for a guy that will make me push a bit harder. Here's a curveball....why not get a trials bike and do it up/have a play on.....something different and still to do with bikes....if you go cold turkey you will be kicking yourself down the track. If they give you the shits....just cover them up with a few sheets...cheers.
-
I think the outline for future cut-off's should be laid-down now, that way enthusiasts can be buying-up bikes, stocking-up parts ready for a good showing in the future.
Not sure if there were much advancements from 90 to 00 so I say Pre 1990 to Pre 2000
-
Why make it a technology cut-off? Pre-65, Pre-70, Pre-85 and Pre-90 have all used the "every five years" cut off, and it works fine. There was never as big a leap in development of MX bikes as the move to long travel suspension - everything else before and after has been incremental improvement. Even the rapid advances in the early 1980s (water cooling, front discs, linkage rear) didn't make the older bikes as obsolete as long travel did in the mid 70s.
That said, let's look at the main technological advances in the late 80s and through the 90s. I'll focus on the bikes that were reasonably mainstream:
1. Cartridge forks that worked. First introduced by Honda in 1986, mainstream by 1988. Unquestionable improvement.
2. Rear discs. First introduced by Kawasaki, KTM and Maico in 1986, mainstream by 1988. Unquestionable improvement.
3. USD forks. First introduced by KTM in 1983, mainstream by 1989.
Arguably a step backwards until the 43mm versions came out in 1992/3. Arguably not an improvement until 1996 when 45/46mm versions became common.
4. Closed chamber forks. First seen in 1996 RMs (as RWUs), and 97 CRs (as USDs). Didn't become mainstream until mid-00s.
Definite improvement.
5. Competitive four strokes. It could be argued that there was always one or two available (CCM, HL500, Husky510, etc), they only began to be taken seriously in the early 1990s with the Husky TC610 and Husaberg. The 1998 Yamaha YZF400 was the first mainstream 4T to be taken seriously as an MX bike.
Mainstream by the early-mid 00s.
6. Keihin PWK carby. First introduced in the late 80s (88 KXs, I believe).
Definite improvement over the round slides and Mikuni flat slides that preceded it.
7. Keihin PWK with Powerjet. IIRC, they were first introduced in 1998 on the KX250 (possibly '97 CR250?).
8. Carbs with TPS, allowing 3D ignition curves. Don't know the year, but 1998ish.
9. Aluminium frames. First introduced in 1997 on the CR250. Definite step backwards, at least until the early/mid-00s. Mainstream by the mid-00s.
10. Ergos. It's a big one, but hard to define. There's a clear progression toward having the bars further forward, the seat being flatter & thinner, and increasing the distance between the seat and pegs.
This change was most obvious in the 1996 YZs, but it was mostly obvious because the 93~95 YZs had dated ergos when they were released in 1993...
I don't think there's a year/period where you can say that ergos took a significant step toward what current model bikes have.
It is also something that would be very difficult to police.
11. 19" rear wheel. First seen on 1989 YZs, mainstream by 1991 (even if Honda and Husqvarna resisted for a long time).
Definite improvement.
I think that's the main ones - I want to talk about brakes, but it's much the same as ergos, so I won't.
Maybe Honda's HPP exhaust power valve from 1986 CR250 also deserves a mention, but that bike's forks are more significant IMHO.
Maybe also the move to undersquare 250 2T motors and the universal move to 54x54 125 motors is also relevant?
-----------------------
All of that leads me to conclude that Pre-85 should actually be either Pre-86, or a "No cartridge forks, no rear disc" class.
Maybe Pre-90 should be Pre-92?
The next clear technology break would be 1996, 97 or 98 - in 1995, there were no alloy frames, TPS carbs, closed chamber forks, or YZF400s - by 1998, all of those things were offered by at least one of the Jap manufacturers.
Or you could say "sod all that" and simply make the class Pre-95?
-
96 Honda was the stand out until the YZF for pre 2000
-
Red, I'm in a similar sort of boat to you, had a bad accident 5 months ago and probably have another 6 at least till I'm on the mended side.....I'm a mechanic by trade and am finding it very hard not being able to do things that came so easily to me before. I don't even know if I will ride/race again but in the meantime I'm trying to finish off a couple of bikes that have dragged on for too long. I also have a very trick bike to restore for a guy that will make me push a bit harder. Here's a curveball....why not get a trials bike and do it up/have a play on.....something different and still to do with bikes....if you go cold turkey you will be kicking yourself down the track. If they give you the shits....just cover them up with a few sheets...cheers.
Joan you will be back faster and stronger than ever mate :) its a bastard when you are laid up but you will be back . They say you cant keep a good man down and i think that goes for a rude ole wobbler like you too ;D ;D
Your passion for what we do is both inspiring and infectious , your on the back side of your recovery now and will be back in the saddle before you know it .
Connondale 2014 expect a proper Kiwi team ( those who drink piss all night and still go out and do it ) were planning now and expect you to be team captain :).
Red as the boys are saying hang in there , if its in the blood its there forever :)
-
Golf is boring. My clubs are gathering dust up the back of the garage.
[/quote]
Never could understand a game where you hit a ball as far away from yourself as you can then have to chase it yourself :P
-
96 Honda was the stand out until the YZF for pre 2000
Better than the 97 YZ250?
I've got six pre-95 bikes in the shed (an another on permenant loan with a mate)... If the class was formed as Pre-96, it wouldn't change what I own.
If it was pre-97, it might.
-
Jay It does pass ,like you Ive done the heart attack bit it took me about 9 months to get back and I'll tell you now your first ride back is daunting but once back on a bike it all seems to come back together . Im not up at the front of the field but then again I never was so much for a port and polish of the heart . As Mark said the MOJO will come back . Iain 8)
-
If you can agree to the significance of these bikes and this era now, what are your thoughts on them being race classes in the near future???
Pre 85 isn't running anything near half of its potential and as Davey says, punters are just starting to get their heads around pre 90 so it would be a swan dive into disaster to introduce (or even consider ) any newer cutoff areas for at least five years. Every time I argue against these new classes I get attacked by the usual antagonists for being an old dinosaur clinging to the pre 75 dream and afraid of change, but the truth is that I have no problem whatsoever with new classes being introduced, my problem is with those classes being introduced too soon. Until the existing classes are hosting full fields in all capacities we need to concentrate on and perfect the divisions we have already. The cancellation of the Post Classic Nats early this year is evidence enough that there are enough problems within the Post Classic era to deal with without adding new fuel to the fire.
I bit my tongue earlier, but...
Pre-85 will NEVER meet the impossible expectations you set for it, because it was introduced too late. Pre-90, Pre-78 and Pre-70 are all doomed to the same fate, for exactly the same reasons. The two strongest classes in VMX are Pre-75 and Evo because they were introduced early.
Pre-75 was a mere 13 years old when VMX started - the newest Pre-95 bike is 18 years old already, and we're talking about waiting another five years?!...
Most of us live our (first) dirt-biking hey-day in our late teens and early twenties. Then things like family and career and mortgages typically get in the way in our mid twenties, and we drift away to look after those other things.
The majority of people join the VMX movement when they're in their mid-30s to mid-40s - when the Family/career/mortgage is under control and they have the time and money to race dirt bikes again, but are not able/willing to mix it with the youngsters at the typical modern club day.
There are plenty of welcome exceptions to that, but since the start of VMX its undoubtedly been the 35~45 year old blokes who are the vast majority of the new recruits - and the these blokes will most closely identify with bikes that are 15~20 years old: The bikes these blokes rode in their own personal heyday.
The Retro/Norths (pre-90) club in NSW is a clear example of this - the average age is clearly considerably lower than it is at Heaven...
We can talk of Pre-85's "potential" until the cows come home, but we crippled it from the start - the window of opportunity was mostly closed before we finally got around to saying "you know what? A bike made in 1984 is really quite old now - maybe it could even be a VMX class". We did the same for Pre-90 and we are about to do the same for Pre-95.
The VMX movement is doomed while the "not yet" mentality is allowed to prevail. Everyone has their own pet era, and that's a GOOD thing - I don't expect the 50+ yo blokes to share my enthusiasm for Pre-95 - but I get properly cranky when they try to claim that my enthusiasm for Pre-95 is somehow less valid than their own enthusiasm for Pre-75 was in 1989...
-
Man that sounds like me :)
I'm building the bike my oldies would never let me have
:)
I think your right Nathan
-
You might be right in NSW Nathan but up here in Bananaland you couldn't be further from the truth....You need to sell a couple of your Volvo's and come up to sunny Qld and check out a very healthy VMX scene.....pre75, pre78, EVO, pre85 and pre90 are all healthy and growing.....when you have people like Glen Bell, Dave Armstrong and James Deacon turn up to club days and relive THERE dreams then you know you are doing something right....we have the best tracks in Australia to ride on up here (Conondale, Echo Valley, QMP, Harrisville to name a few) and when you offer the punters great tracks/facilities they will turn up. Sometimes you have to put your hand in your pocket and pay the money for the right tracks/facilities. As we get older we get fussier and I think you will find the reason your numbers are low has a lot to do with the tracks you ride on.....pretty blunt but true!.The thumper Nats grew out of control with rider numbers and ended up bigger than the Australian titles....why.....because you rode on awesome tracks...Conondale, Dargle, Kempsey, Barrabool, Picton etc. The Conondale Classic this year had full grids in EVO up.....when was the last time you saw 40 500cc bikes on the grid?.....make it your big event for next year....it's your shout too by the way.
-
I never said numbers were low, Davey - its about killing off this insane idea that we need Pre-85 (or Pre-90 or Pre-78 or whatever other excuse you want to use) before a newer class can be considered.
The progressive nature of VMX is Qld is a big part of its health. Compared to NSW, you Qwinslanders seemed to spend no time bickering about whether Pre-90 was "ready" or "legitimate" as a VMX class - instead, you go on with it and reaped the rewards.
The same seems to be true of Victoria - they were going gang-busters while they were progressive, but then they succumbed to the "that's not how we do it" mentality, and the handbrake was reefed on...
-
I'm sure it will come soon Nathan, but other States are struggling with what they have/don't have but we would struggle up here to fit any more races in during the day. Have they done the pre95 or 2000 overseas yet? One thing that bothers me is the amount of guys sneaking in 90 and 91 model bikes into pre90....should pre90 be opened up to certain carry over models?....maybe it should be changed to pre92 or something?....then straight to pre2000. I don't think the KX5's and CR5's changed much in 90 and 91. I think sticking to 5 year increments doesn't work with the newer stuff......let the shitfight begin....pump those shoulders up Nathan....ther will be gunning for you. :)
-
The problem in Victoria is primarily division, too many ( 3 ) clubs catering to a similar demographic, the diminishing amount of people that can afford to maintain and race their bikes mean each club is seeing only small growth in member numbers (steady but small). I keep being told about the "good ol days" of Victorian VMX where there was just 1 series running and all classes/era's were raced on the same weekend, i always wondered how great that would have been.......Well on the weekend just passed i found out!! The Grass track event at Clarkefield was a combined meeting of Victorias 3 VMX clubs and it was AWESOME, pre 90 to pre 75 being run all together and 99% of people were having a ball. Support classes of modern bikes and fast 50's could easily be swapped for a pre 2000 (or pre 96) class and would attract the same amount of support and new interest IMO, so the way forward is quite obviously found in PROGRESSION and UNITY. Anything else will just result in things become STALE and DIVIDED. Just my 2c but I have now seen the proof of this theory and i dont believe it can be argued with any weight behind your rebuttal than "that's just how it is" ::)
Cheers, Brendan.
PS, big thanks to CSC's Peter Ellard, VCM's Frank DeRose and most of all VIPER'S Peter Gruber for working together and showing people like me just a glimpse how the "good ol days" must have looked! :)
-
Our local vintage series has a pre 2000 class for 1999 and older bikes. It's the most fun I've had in years on my 1999 RM 125. We also have a 1989 and older, 1981 and older, 1974 and older. No age or skill breakups. They usually get 5-15 guys in each class depending on the track.
-
That's a main part of the way forward Brendon, the clubs have to work together. These old guys that keep living/referring to the past and don't want to move forward are just kidding themselves and damaging the sport ......the past (when vintage started) was great and the sport exploded but now it's a whole different ball game....ie...riders that are too old, bodies too broken, cant/don't want to ride anymore, just burnt out....bla, bla, bla. I'm with the DC guy, pre 2000....and anyone who hasn't ridden a "modern"125 is missing out on one of the best bikes you could ever ride.
-
Well that's the crux of it isn't it.
Are the organizations only for the pleasure of the current membership or something that will live on after most of the pioneers who started this great thing we have worldwide hang up their leathers for the last time.
People racing their old bikes in a safer venue, re-living their youth, sharing history with the younger generation, rekindling old friendships and making new ones for as long as the oil lasts or just a 25+ year flash in the pan? Only we can decide.
-
Well that's the crux of it isn't it.
Are the organizations only for the pleasure of the current membership or something that will live on after most of the pioneers who started this great thing we have worldwide hang up their leathers for the last time.
People racing their old bikes in a safer venue, re-living their youth, sharing history with the younger generation, rekindling old friendships and making new ones for as long as the oil lasts or just a 25+ year flash in the pan? Only we can decide.
EXACTLY Red, todays 20 year old WILL NOT be passionate about pre 85, pre 75 etc when they are 40, they will be in love with what their favourite was when they were young, just as most of us are.
Evolve or Die.
Kt.
-
Although I like the 1974 models and loved my 1984 RM 250, there is just something about the bikes that I grew up on. Being 25, the mid to late 90's are my bikes of choice. I always looked forward to reading the bike mags and watching the A riders when I was a kid.
-
Well that's the crux of it isn't it.
Are the organizations only for the pleasure of the current membership or something that will live on after most of the pioneers who started this great thing we have worldwide hang up their leathers for the last time.
People racing their old bikes in a safer venue, re-living their youth, sharing history with the younger generation, rekindling old friendships and making new ones for as long as the oil lasts or just a 25+ year flash in the pan? Only we can decide.
EXACTLY Red, todays 20 year old WILL NOT be passionate about pre 85, pre 75 etc when they are 40, they will be in love with what their favourite was when they were young, just as most of us are.
Evolve or Die.
Kt.
I want to make it clear that I'm not knocking anyone who has worked and toiled to run an organization that caters to a particular era of bikes and racing. If they just want it to run it's course and end when they are through with racing more power to them, but if you want the organization to continue you have to add new eras. We have this fight all the time here in the U.S. and I stay neutral when the discussions come up.
Look at this years Vet MXdN at Farleigh Castle, the feature riders have evolved to be the early 90's hot shoes. Jean Michel Bayles, John Dowd, Doug Dubach, Jeff Stanton. It will not be long before the late 90's guys start showing up.
-
The VMX movement is doomed while the "not yet" mentality is allowed to prevail. Everyone has their own pet era, and that's a GOOD thing - I don't expect the 50+ yo blokes to share my enthusiasm for Pre-95 - but I get properly cranky when they try to claim that my enthusiasm for Pre-95 is somehow less valid than their own enthusiasm for Pre-75 was in 1989...
Who the fluck said that (last sentence) Nathan? Seeing that you highlighted my post I guess you must be referring to me. How dare you assume that that's the way I think. I encourage new eras, I really do but I honestly believe that moving forward with these crazy notions to up the cutoff to pre 95 and god forbid, pre 2000 at this time or near future what is extremely detrimental to the overall vintage movement. You can call me all the old fart, head in the sand dinosaurs you like but the absolute fact of life is that the post '78 divisions are not healthy and are not running anywhere near their potential entry capacity. Pre 90 (A division I agree with and encourage btw) is still moving ahead in baby steps, finding its place in the sport and now less that two years after its introduction you're standing on the milk crate preaching the same convoluted dogma you were preaching for pre 90 not all that long ago. I could go on with long drawn out reasons to justify my belief but I think I've made my points reasonably clear.
*15 minutes later, after a nice hot shower......Once again, I've just wasted half an hour of my ever shortening life arguing the point with someone who's life mission is arguing the point. I'm going to Starbucks for a double shot Cappuccino and some raisin toast, it's too nice a day for banging my head against brick walls.
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/man_banging_head_zps482c825a.gif) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/man_banging_head_zps482c825a.gif.html)
-
This is far too important to be a forum chest-beating exercise:
How is a newer class "extremely detrimental to the overall vintage movement"?
-
I expect some of the pre 90 gates thin, if you expect gen xers like me to fill them, not enough of us to do it. The local club has decade and 20 yr classes that do well. Expense is a great consideration, newer two stroke is cheap to operate. I know we etter get younger dudes now rather than later.
-
This is far too important to be a forum chest-beating exercise:
Well stop chest beating then.
How is a newer class "extremely detrimental to the overall vintage movement"?
And top twisting my words too ::). What I said/meant is that the introduction of a new class too soon would be detrimental to the sport. The existing classes have to be given time to reach their potential otherwise we'll end up with two or three under subscribed divisions competing for a very limited potential racer market. The pre 95 or pre 2000 classes are great initiatives when their time comes, in perhaps 2 years time for pre 95 and 5 years for pre 2000. Sadly, as soon as these new divisions are implemented, the usual suspects will be calling for a pre 2002 class and this same bullshit will start all over again.
-
My God are you telling me they made motocrossers after 1977 , well I'll be stuffed no one told me . ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
My God are you telling me they made motocrossers after 1977 , well I'll be stuffed no one told me . ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yes they did make motocrossers after 1977, all the way up until 1980 ;D
-
This is far too important to be a forum chest-beating exercise:
Well stop chest beating then.
How is a newer class "extremely detrimental to the overall vintage movement"?
And top twisting my words too ::). What I said/meant is that the introduction of a new class too soon would be detrimental to the sport. The existing classes have to be given time to reach their potential otherwise we'll end up with two or three under subscribed divisions competing for a very limited potential racer market. The pre 95 or pre 2000 classes are great initiatives when their time comes, in perhaps 2 years time for pre 95 and 5 years for pre 2000. Sadly, as soon as these new divisions are implemented, the usual suspects will be calling for a pre 2002 class and this same bullshit will start all over again.
I'm not chest beating. You've seen me in full flight - and you know this is well short of it.
I'll repeat my main point:
The vast majority of VMX recruits are 35~45 year olds who want to re-live their dirt-biking glory days of their early adulthood. This has held true for the entire history of VMX.
If we are not attracting those people, then we are doomed.
We've been on this "not yet" merry-go-round for at least a decade, and it hasn't helped - I've lost track of the number of times I've heard "Pre-85 hasn't lived up to its potential yet", but I haven't heard a SINGLE suggestion for building the class, beyond the usual 'how do we improve the sport' stuff, which would equally apply to Pre-95...
-
This is far too important to be a forum chest-beating exercise:
Well stop chest beating then.
How is a newer class "extremely detrimental to the overall vintage movement"?
And top twisting my words too ::). What I said/meant is that the introduction of a new class too soon would be detrimental to the sport. The existing classes have to be given time to reach their potential otherwise we'll end up with two or three under subscribed divisions competing for a very limited potential racer market. The pre 95 or pre 2000 classes are great initiatives when their time comes, in perhaps 2 years time for pre 95 and 5 years for pre 2000. Sadly, as soon as these new divisions are implemented, the usual suspects will be calling for a pre 2002 class and this same bullshit will start all over again.
I'm not chest beating. You've seen me in full flight - and you know this is well short of it.
I'll repeat my main point:
The vast majority of VMX recruits are 35~45 year olds who want to re-live their dirt-biking glory days of their early adulthood. This has held true for the entire history of VMX.
If we are not attracting those people, then we are doomed.
We've been on this "not yet" merry-go-round for at least a decade, and it hasn't helped - I've lost track of the number of times I've heard "Pre-85 hasn't lived up to its potential yet", but I haven't heard a SINGLE suggestion for building the class, beyond the usual 'how do we improve the sport' stuff, which would equally apply to Pre-95...
You make sense with the 35/45 yr olds Nath and so does Firkos point that neither pre 85 or Pre 90 have reached their potential. If you must push it out to pre 95 why not just extend the pre 90 cut off to whatever is this weeks flavor,rather than add another bloody empty class to the programme , add to the least popular one you already have Pre 90 . As far as im concerned the bike changes 1990 on were so minimal and beige that there is no reason not to . The older classes like it or not from the late 50s to the late 80s capture a time when MX development was moving at a very rapid rate . Within that 30 yr period there were times when radical changes were made at GP level week to week and that is what IMHO makes it so special.
Once you get past the late 80s quite frankly and this is only my opinion it all becomes Soooooooooooooooooooooooo boring ::) .
I was as excited as the next Mug who bought one when the ally framed CRs came out and again when the YZF 400 was released but with hindsight both and particularly the 4 stroke spelled the death knock for a sport i have loved since i was a kid .
I understand completely your 35 to 45 yr olds wanting to ride what they rode. But again only my opinion but those people have a view and an attitude to the sport that reflects those bikes they want to ride, and that is a polar opposite to those of us who were lucky enough to live and race in a time when MX development meant more than new stickers and an anodized gas cap :)
-
What were the major technological developments between 1960 and 1974?
-
The tide changed from heavyweight pre war 4 strokes to lightweight 2 strokes. Then the Japanese arrived Nathan.....made bikes affordable, reliable and you could get one at any corner store.....and then they started long travel with the monoshock in 1973. Then they made minibikes for scrotes to ride.....I don't agree with your assumption the pre85 and pre90 haven't forfilled peoples dreams....maybe in second class society's ;D
-
Pre-90 is as important to some as Pre-75 is to Firko.
Pre-95 is that important to me. It is MY era. Pre-00 is inevitable - it holds much less interest to me, but I will not denigrate it, or otherwise devalue its importance to others.
Everyone has their pet era. When we can respect others' passion, we can grow.
-
Everyone has their pet era. When we can respect others' passion, we can grow.
True, though its a very small minority that don't respect others era's.
So we win, minority rules in favour of all vmx era's ;D
cheers A
-
Everyone has their pet era. When we can respect others' passion, we can grow.
absolutely, I couldn't agree more. At the risk of repeating myself, my only worry is that by introducing any new divisions we will have too many undersubscribed divisions. Eventually divisions will have to drop out or combine with each other.....for example, combining pre 85 with pre 90 to make room. Just because these five yearly cutoffs have fitted the mould in the past doesn't mean we have to stick with such a rigid formula in the future. Perhaps technologically based divisions will be a way of achieving division parity in the future. Whatever happens, eventually something's going to have to give or another split be made to cater for the next generation of bike technology.
Pre-90 is as important to some as Pre-75 is to Firko.
But I've changed. While I didn't seriously start racing until 1970 which nurtured my passion for the pre 75 era, over the years I've become more and more interested in the even earlier divisions of pre 70, pre 65 and over the last couple of years, pre 60. I was 8 years old in 1959 but I have grown to love and respect those old mild steel and cast iron heavyweights from that era to the point of assembling enough parts to eventually start building a 1959ish era TriBSA. I think that if we took a little sideways interest in bikes from outside of our generation many of us would find that not only are those bikes interesting in their own way, they're fun to build and race. The current upsurge in interest in pre 70 and pre 65 is an example of racers crossing over the invisible barrier into classes that they'd previously had no serious interest. The current "DT1 Craze" has woken up a surprising number of punters into joining the pre 70 class. In reverse, a staunch pre 75 mate of mine is currently planning a pre 90 class ATK and myself and my mate Jonesy are co-building a very, very trick pre 78/Evo 125 Yamaha. I emphatically believe that if we step outside of our technological comfort zone and take an interest in bikes we'd previously only taken a sideways glance towards, our VMX experience is broadened and the sport will become a more close knit and happy place.
-
Pre-90 is as important to some as Pre-75 is to Firko.
Pre-95 is that important to me. It is MY era. Pre-00 is inevitable - it holds much less interest to me, but I will not denigrate it, or otherwise devalue its importance to others.
Everyone has their pet era. When we can respect others' passion, we can grow.
Nath its not that i dont respect others passions , if their into bikes thats got to be a good thing :)
I have seen you race eras from pre 70 to pre 90 and you seem to enjoy them all .
When i say that the technological advances were slow in the later eras im not digging them out im just stating fact . I still maintain that adding later classes too soon is foolish when the already established late classes pre 85 and pre 90 have small numbers and cant get enough to run a titles .
Joan has cleared up the 1960 to 1974 advances i think , Frank Mellings MX the big leap is a good read covering this topic .
-
I vowed and declared I wouldn't get involved in these discussions. Hypocrite I am now becoming...
Some general observations:
- My favourite bike in my shed is a 1967 Sprite. I was born in 1967. I love it not for nostalgic reasons nor for sentimental reasons - I can't remember 1967. I love it for its simplicity, style, pure function.
- Many of my inner city hipster mates are getting into bikes, and are going for the 60s and 70s stuff - stuff that was around long before they were born. They reckon my old Sprite is the essence of cool. Some of them are getting into racing, most of them will never race - but they are all keen to spectate.
- I have my own sentimental eras, being the 78-81 era (when I was getting into bikes as a kid) and the 86-89 era (when I was getting into racing motocross). My era of nostalgia will be different to the next guy / girl
- In roadracing, they have a class for bikes that have turned 10 years old. It gives a cheap entry point for bikes that might have gone out of fashion a bit
- Surely the VMX scene is about getting bikes out of sheds, and giving those with a working bike the opportunity to go out and have a bit of fun on it, against bikes that are of a reasonably similar age and/or performance level. Whether that bike is a 67 / 77 / 87 / 97 model shouldn't matter. If someone still has a bike that he bought ten years ago, then he is no less a candidate to get involved - and I believe we are doing ourselves a disservice if we dictate that he and his bike need to "mature" for a few years before we will let him in with us.
Please note I am not saying that every meeting must have every year covered. I just think we will maintain a healthier "sport" if we keep it inclusive and everyone gets an opportunity at some time in the year.
Cheers all
Geoff
-
i believe the saying is , "populate or perish.........
We need "friendlier tracks" AND a bigger pool to draw from. There is lots of guys who would ride an mx track if they felt they wouldnt look out of their depth, tracks in general are a bit over the top IMO, make them a bit easier, i.e. smaller fewer jumps, NO big tables, no doubles, smaller woops etc, it would not be so big a stretch to get them to have a go in general and the older blokes would have more choices of where to ride (this is mainly Sydney i am speaking of re the ttracks).
When all is said and done we are a hobby only, if we keep doing the same things do we really expect things to change? MX in general is quiet around Sydney, its going to stay that way, around the fringes is different, some tracks, and in some areas a lot of riders, but the tracks are NOT very "old bloke" friendly so not a lot of old blokes wanting to go there and look like a squid.
There's lots of opinions, or variations of opinions, on all of this but the general rule we need to follow is the first line, its just amatter of how we do that, if we want to grow that is, i'd start with a more VMX friendly track layout.
Kt.
-
Everyone has their pet era. When we can respect others' passion, we can grow.
absolutely, I couldn't agree more. At the risk of repeating myself, my only worry is that by introducing any new divisions we will have too many undersubscribed divisions. Eventually divisions will have to drop out or combine with each other.....for example, combining pre 85 with pre 90 to make room. Just because these five yearly cutoffs have fitted the mould in the past doesn't mean we have to stick with such a rigid formula in the future. Perhaps technologically based divisions will be a way of achieving division parity in the future. Whatever happens, eventually something's going to have to give or another split be made to cater for the next generation of bike technology.
Pre-90 is as important to some as Pre-75 is to Firko.
But I've changed. While I didn't seriously start racing until 1970 which nurtured my passion for the pre 75 era, over the years I've become more and more interested in the even earlier divisions of pre 70, pre 65 and over the last couple of years, pre 60. I was 8 years old in 1959 but I have grown to love and respect those old mild steel and cast iron heavyweights from that era to the point of assembling enough parts to eventually start building a 1959ish era TriBSA. I think that if we took a little sideways interest in bikes from outside of our generation many of us would find that not only are those bikes interesting in their own way, they're fun to build and race. The current upsurge in interest in pre 70 and pre 65 is an example of racers crossing over the invisible barrier into classes that they'd previously had no serious interest. The current "DT1 Craze" has woken up a surprising number of punters into joining the pre 70 class. In reverse, a staunch pre 75 mate of mine is currently planning a pre 90 class ATK and myself and my mate Jonesy are co-building a very, very trick pre 78/Evo 125 Yamaha. I emphatically believe that if we step outside of our technological comfort zone and take an interest in bikes we'd previously only taken a sideways glance towards, our VMX experience is broadened and the sport will become a more close knit and happy place.
Now there's some common ground. :)
My point is that you don't get people involved by demanding they step outside of their comfort zone.
I've lost track of the number of times 'newbies' have turned up at race meetings with a bike from "their era" and openly expressed minimal interest in the older bikes - but within a few meetings, they've seen the other era bikes in action and said "that looks like fun"... and then they hunt down a bike from an era that they'd normally never have developed an interest in.
One of my mates semi-reluctantly got dragged along to the first Pre-90 race meet in NSW. It was mostly the promise of racing my KX500 that got him there. Then I managed to talk him into coming to Canowindra on the promise of the social aspect and the unique format.
He now owns a Pre-75 bike, a Pre-78 bike, two Evo bikes, two Pre-85 bikes and two Pre-90 bikes... There is absolutely no way on earth that I'd have been able to talk him into buying an Evo bike straight up, and even less chance of getting him to race a Pre-78 or Pre-75 bike.
Edit: When time and/or money is tight, most people will contract back into their comfort zone.
Pre-90 is as important to some as Pre-75 is to Firko.
Pre-95 is that important to me. It is MY era. Pre-00 is inevitable - it holds much less interest to me, but I will not denigrate it, or otherwise devalue its importance to others.
Everyone has their pet era. When we can respect others' passion, we can grow.
Nath its not that i dont respect others passions , if their into bikes thats got to be a good thing :)
I have seen you race eras from pre 70 to pre 90 and you seem to enjoy them all .
When i say that the technological advances were slow in the later eras im not digging them out im just stating fact . I still maintain that adding later classes too soon is foolish when the already established late classes pre 85 and pre 90 have small numbers and cant get enough to run a titles .
Joan has cleared up the 1960 to 1974 advances i think , Frank Mellings MX the big leap is a good read covering this topic .
A 1964 CZ250 is an air-cooled, two-stroke, single cylinder 250 with drum brakes, twin shocks and roughly 7/4" of suspension travel.
Just like a 1974 Ossa Phantom or Montesa Cappra.
A 1989 CR250 is a water-cooled, power-valved, two stroke, single cylinder 250 with disc brakes, linkage monoshock, and roughly 12" of suspension travel F&R.
Just like a 2013 KTM250SX.
There is a lot more to both technology and performance than a list of specifications or superficial appearance, regardless of the era.
-
I can't speak for other states, but from what I've seen in NSW:
There's more Pre-85 and Pre-90 bikes being regularly raced in VMX than in Pre-75, Pre-70 and Pre-78.
If we are going to be wringing our hands about the supposed poor health of the two newest eras, we ought to be suicidal over the pre-78 eras.
-
Nathan, the best way is to get out there and support our major events. Can we expect your entry for the Classic Nats in the next week or so?
Also as soon as we have the Sup Regs out for the Post Classic Nats to be held in April 2014 I'll personally post you an entry form.
-
What were the major technological developments between 1960 and 1974?
I could fill a page with each eras contributions but here's my very condensed take on the progression...
Pre'60: This is the division where the height of technology was the TriBSA...fitting a Triumph twin engine into a better handling and lighter BSA frame. There were very few purpose built scramble (motocross) bikes and they were nearly all based on the equivalent road bike.
Pre '65: This era saw the introduction of the first attempts at sophisticated purpose built bikes and the introduction of the aftermarket lightweight frame conversions from Rickman, Cheney and other less famous builders. For the first time weight and suspension travel and quality took precedence over horsepower and became the more important aspects of a motocross bikes construction.
Pre 70: The two stroke comes into its own and bikes are almost halved in weight. We experienced the first Japanese involvement the Yamaha DT1, Suzuki Savage and RH67 and Kawasaki F21M and the 250 class was taken much more seriously because the reliability of the new lightweights from Europe and the UK.
Pre 75: Motocross became a boom sport with the bikes featuring vastly improved engineering sophistication , longer travel suspension and the release of the first truly competitive Japanese bikes. The long travel suspension evolution started in 1973 with the YZ Yamaha and MC Maico with the rest soon following.
-
I can't speak for other states, but from what I've seen in NSW:
There's more Pre-85 and Pre-90 bikes being regularly raced in VMX than in Pre-75, Pre-70 and Pre-78.
If we are going to be wringing our hands about the supposed poor health of the two newest eras, we ought to be suicidal over the pre-78 eras.
Nathan just to clear up the health of eras in NSW. The numbers below indicate that most of the ERAs are fairly healthy.
Heaven / Northern Districts - EVO Challenge Inter-Club meeting @ Glenbawn Dam a mild modern track
March 2013
No Pre65 class
5 Pre70 bikes
17 Pre75 bikes
24 Pre78 bikes
39 EVO bikes
47 Pre85 bikes
16 Pre90 bikes
Heaven - Crawford River Classic - grass track meeting - natural terrain
September 2013
8 Pre65 bikes
10 Pre70 bikes
30 Pre75 bikes
29 Pre78 bikes
36 EVO bikes
36 Pre85 bikes
No Pre90 class
The big question really is why these entry numbers for EVO, Pre85, Pre90 did not enter events like the Post Classic Titles.
-
What were the major technological developments between 1960 and 1974?
I could fill a page with each eras contributions but here's my very condensed take on the progression...
Pre'60: This is the division where the height of technology was the TriBSA...fitting a Triumph twin engine into a better handling and lighter BSA frame. There were very few purpose built scramble (motocross) bikes and they were nearly all based on the equivalent road bike.
Pre '65: This era saw the introduction of the first attempts at sophisticated purpose built bikes and the introduction of the aftermarket lightweight frame conversions from Rickman, Cheney and other less famous builders. For the first time weight and suspension travel and quality took precedence over horsepower and became the more important aspects of a motocross bikes construction.
Pre 70: The two stroke comes into its own and bikes are almost halved in weight. We experienced the first Japanese involvement the Yamaha DT1, Suzuki Savage and RH67 and Kawasaki F21M and the 250 class was taken much more seriously because the reliability of the new lightweights from Europe and the UK.
Pre 75: Motocross became a boom sport with the bikes featuring vastly improved engineering sophistication , longer travel suspension and the release of the first truly competitive Japanese bikes. The long travel suspension evolution started in 1973 with the YZ Yamaha and MC Maico with the rest soon following.
The list is valid- but apart from the 4T-to-2T change, it shares the same lack of "kapow" tick-a-box of Long Travel/Water-Cooling/Discs/etc as the 90s.
There's no way a twin pipe CZ can hold a candle to a good 1974 model - in the same way a 1986 KX125 is hopelessly outclassed by a 1999 KTM125SX, or a 94 CR250 is by an 07 KXF450.
This idea that bikes have barely changed since 1987ish is as incorrect as the idea that bikes barely changed between 1960 and 1974.
-
Eras ? If you are able, build and ride what you favour as often or when you can. :)
Because the day will come when your bikes sit in the shed calling, but your body has f**ked up. >:(
That's the real breaking point.
-
1960s Maico
http://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/maico/Maico_1961_250cc_ISDT.htm
1970 maico
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=1974+maico+400&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=vfVIUveIFcSmkwX8sIDADQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=971&dpr=1#q=1970+maico&tbm=isch&facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=0YQiFOheoxi51M%3A%3B04NlxP0h15qd_M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcybermotorcycle.com%252Fgallery%252Fmaico%252Fimages%252FMaico_MC400_1970.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcybermotorcycle.com%252Fgallery%252Fmaico%252FMaico_MC400_1970.htm%3B606%3B416
1974 maico
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=1974+maico+400&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=vfVIUveIFcSmkwX8sIDADQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=971&dpr=1#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=xA3_p5U3zCxjsM%3A%3Bzgz2CVt357eFxM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.maicomotorcycles.com%252Fimages%252F1974-5speed-1.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.maicomotorcycles.com%252Frestorations.html%3B400%3B300
1979 Maico
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=1979+maico&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&biw=1920&bih=971&dpr=1&bvm=pv.xjs.s.en_US.6PYzwk9faGo.O&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=d_dIUsyLGY6dlQX0ooCYCg#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=xYNc6c7ydRMjiM%3A%3BIKQU6KzE_5FmGM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.off-road.com%252Faimages%252Farticlestandard%252Fdirtbike%252F202009%252F597724%252FMAICO_1.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.off-road.com%252Fdirtbike%252Fvintage-maico-special-16636.html%3B480%3B312
1984 Maico
http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?imgurl=http://www.maico.mxbikes.com/84-maico250-01.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.maico.mxbikes.com/1984.htm&h=390&w=612&sz=51&tbnid=8es6wIZJwVaNNM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=141&zoom=1&usg=__R3w95d7_ZytHo_y8bpdniNE6MZw=&docid=xEKoluPsTaPDmM&sa=X&ei=wvdIUsy-IIvtlAWtoYCIBA&ved=0CD4Q9QEwAw
1984 CR500
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=1979+maico&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&biw=1920&bih=971&dpr=1&bvm=pv.xjs.s.en_US.6PYzwk9faGo.O&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=d_dIUsyLGY6dlQX0ooCYCg#hl=en&q=1984+cr500&tbm=isch&um=1&facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=411ToSwIytVXIM%3A%3Bg_mfyq1yBMW0hM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.motorera.com%252Fhonda%252Fh0500%252Felsinore%252Fcr500r-84.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.motorera.com%252Fhonda%252Fh0500%252Felsinore.htm%3B325%3B190
1989 CR500
https://www.google.co.nz/search?gs_rn=27&gs_ri=psy-ab&tok=4naVssyjDArsnHqkGVhKig&pq=1974+maico+400&cp=8&gs_id=z&xhr=t&q=1989+cr500&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&biw=1920&bih=971&dpr=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=_vVIUtUvg4uQBbKPgEg#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=BfIBVwt8V3tZoM%3A%3BHjzkvwIGjEN1xM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.mxworksbike.com%252F1989CR500_3_800.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.mxworksbike.com%252FMcWaters%2525201989CR500.htm%3B800%3B451
1994 Cr 500
http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?imgurl=http://www.motodacross.com/honda/cr500/1994.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.motodacross.com/honda/cr500.htm?a&h=409&w=700&sz=70&tbnid=894tq7oTYs8HqM:&tbnh=64&tbnw=110&zoom=1&usg=__lWuBtcOI0hOg-wPiKVZtMLb2kUA=&docid=9sBjE8oqxjOYyM&sa=X&ei=SvZIUuytL4bFkAW13IGYDg&ved=0CEYQ9QEwBg
1999 CR500
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=1999+CR500&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&biw=1920&bih=971&dpr=1&bvm=pv.xjs.s.en_US.6PYzwk9faGo.O&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=KfdIUvS_NcWnkgWMzIH4CQ#facrc=_&imgrc=78-7lGiVynX3uM%3A%3B6Rs5dsGoLwg_zM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.sportbikez.net%252Fbikepics%252F106%252Fmedium%252F1064081642.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.sportbikez.net%252Fpicture%252F1151%252F1999_honda_cr500%3B600%3B400
2004 CR500
http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Honda/Best/CR500_1280.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Honda/Best/&h=1024&w=1280&sz=132&tbnid=ntwKPqhqHzkisM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=123&zoom=1&usg=__GoObRToYTSHLtXK2mfTS3SdbF4s=&docid=51cTS8qF4f7eZM&sa=X&ei=CPhIUrihO4GNkAXOy4GgBw&ved=0CDAQ9QEwAQ
-
Thats why we run them in classes (eras) it's a no brainer.
So Nathan, are you entering Classic, Post Classic or both?
-
The list is valid- but apart from the 4T-to-2T change, it shares the same lack of "kapow" tick-a-box of Long Travel/Water-Cooling/Discs/etc as the 90s.
Looking at technological transitions from 1959-1974 from a 2013 perspective with 35 year old eyes might suggest the lack of the"kapow" you speak of Nathan but those technological jumps were equally as ground breaking at the time. The introduction of the monoshock Yamaha and Maicos LTR suspension system had a similar impact on motocross as the introduction of water cooling or alloy frames had on later eras. The evolvement of the two stroke as a force in motocross in 1966 had an almost identical "kapow" effect that the modern 4 strike had in 1999, while reed valve inductions contribution had a similar impact to electronic fuel injection. I can recall thinking how radical a jump in technology my 76 Husky 360 Auto was over the RT1 Yamaha and Sherpa S Bultaco I'd been riding just four years earlier. You see the disc brake/water cooling/cartridge fork technology leaps as being radical departures but, as I said earlier, their impact was no more awe inspiring than those earlier technologies.
This idea that bikes have barely changed since 1987ish is as incorrect as the idea that bikes barely changed between 1960 and 1974
With the obvious exception of the modern four stroke's introduction the major improvements between the post EVO eras has essentially concentrated on fine tuning and sophisticating the engine and chassis/suspension technologies developed in the latter part of the eighties. There have been no real suspension travel increases, brake technology leaps and bounds or major frame geometry changes since 1988. What has happened is that those technologies have been gradually fine tuned in model by model baby steps with the end result being todays frame, suspension, engine and componentry looking pretty much the same for that last 20 years but performing astoundingly better. The two stroke motocross engine has barely changed in twenty years but gradual improvements in engine management with digital ignition , variable porting, more efficient carburetion and so on have made the pre 1995/2000 2T easier to ride and maintain while looking little different to it's two decade earlier counterparts.
In a nutshell, in the pre modern 4T era I reckon that the degrees of technological advancement between the early and later eras is pretty much on par. It's a "where your heart is" kind of thing that decides how rose coloured our glasses are.
-
In a nutshell, in the pre modern 4T era I reckon that the degrees of technological advancement between the early and later eras is pretty much on par.
Which is exactly the point I was trying to make.
4T to 2T in the 60s,
Long travel in the 70s,
Disc brakes/water-cooling/linkage rear in the 80s,
2T to 4T in the 90s.
They're the big ones that changed the face of MX.
Can we please stop trying to claim that the bikes that live in those gaps are all the same as each other?
-
Nathan just to clear up the health of eras in NSW. The numbers below indicate that most of the ERAs are fairly healthy.
Heaven / Northern Districts - EVO Challenge Inter-Club meeting @ Glenbawn Dam a mild modern track
March 2013
No Pre65 class
5 Pre70 bikes
17 Pre75 bikes
24 Pre78 bikes
39 EVO bikes
47 Pre85 bikes
16 Pre90 bikes
Heaven - Crawford River Classic - grass track meeting - natural terrain
September 2013
8 Pre65 bikes
10 Pre70 bikes
30 Pre75 bikes
29 Pre78 bikes
36 EVO bikes
36 Pre85 bikes
No Pre90 class
The big question really is why these entry numbers for EVO, Pre85, Pre90 did not enter events like the Post Classic Titles.
Thanks Greg.
Proves my point about how (in NSW at least), the doom and gloom about Pre-85 is unfounded.
And for the non-Heaven regulars, its worth pointing out that the CRC meeting is specifically focussed on the pre-78 eras, and included free entry for Pre-65 bikes (which, happily, seems to have attracted more punters).
The failure of the Post Classic Titles is a question worthy of its own thread.
-
I can't speak for other states, but from what I've seen in NSW:
There's more Pre-85 and Pre-90 bikes being regularly raced in VMX than in Pre-75, Pre-70 and Pre-78.
If we are going to be wringing our hands about the supposed poor health of the two newest eras, we ought to be suicidal over the pre-78 eras.
You point seemed to be we should be suicidal about the state of Pre78.
Also for non Heaven members the EVO challenge is specifically aimed at the EVO Pre85 eras that is why I quoted those two meetings ::)
Should have known you could twist any numbers to support your auguement. Just to balance the 'free' Pre65 entry unsetting the numbers 4 of the Pre65 entries also had Pre85 or EVO bikes (the free entry carried across remember) and another two had Pre75 or Pre78 bikes (again the free entry carried across).
I should have known better than to post anything. It is always twisted to support your point. There I was thinking the numbers refutted your point, silly me.
Once again my last post on this thread.
The 2013 Post Classic titles failed to go ahead for one reason and one reason only. People didn't enter in nearly sufficiant number for it to be successful. END of story
What I don't understand Nathan is why everyone has to agree with Pre90, Pre95 etc etc etc. The people that want those classes just need to do exactly the same thing that started Pre75 etc. Just build it and they will come. Why do you expect groups that have a passion for their section or ERA of the sport to change or alter what they do. I have no problem with Pre90 or later ERAs. Later periods are going to happen but if you expect one body or group to host an ever increasing number of periods then that in itself with kill the earlier eras. Just by the simple fact of adding races or activities. A Pre90 group should welcome Pre95 or Pre00 or whatever is found to be the ideal. It is much much more difficult to include Pre00 into a group that focusses on Pre85 or earlier. That is not to say that Pre00 is wrong, less valuable or less important it is just simple maths. You can stamp your feet, jump up and down or hold your breath but that is the simple facts. The ideal situation is that a couple of successful and strong groups work together to offer the full cross section of periods demanded by riders.
-
No, not at all. Firko has repeatedly said that "Pre-85 is running below its potential".
Pre-85 had the highest entry at both meetings.
If we are going to be wringing our hands about the supposed poor health of the two newest eras, we ought to be suicidal over the pre-78 eras.
Note that I said "if we are going to be wringing our hands..."
TBH, I don't even know what you're objecting to.
-
FIIK what TBH is. I have fell for it again your circular arguments. :-X
-
TBH = To Be Honest.
It's simple: Pre-85 is demonstrably the healthiest class in NSW VMX.
If the health or Pre-85 really is a problem, then we have much larger problems.
Surely you can agree with that?
Alternatively, maybe Pre-85 is fine, and using it as an argument against Pre-95 (as it was used againat Pre-90) is null and void?
-
Nathan, the best way is to get out there and support our major events. Can we expect your entry for the Classic Nats in the next week or so?
Also as soon as we have the Sup Regs out for the Post Classic Nats to be held in April 2014 I'll personally post you an entry form.
I'll move heaven and hell to get to the PCMXNs, but the 2013 CMXNs are not gonna happen for me.
I have time, money and work pressures (like almost everyone does) - and as I said before, when the pressure is on, people contract to their comfort zone.
-
Can we please stop trying to claim that the bikes that live in those gaps are all the same as each other?
I don't recall anybody saying or meaning that, especially me. You're playing the fact twist game again Nathan.
No, not at all. Firko has repeatedly said that "Pre-85 is running below its potential".
And I still do despite Scrivo's statistics. For the first 10 years of VMX (which was purely pre 75 and earlier), Penrith club (and I'm sure, clubs in Queensland and Victoria as well), supported full grids in three capacity classes with three age groups plus full grids in pre 70 250 & 500 , four stroke 250 & 500 and healthy to sometimes full grids in pre 65, all in over fifties and all in over sixties at club level. At Nationals level some classes such as the over 30 250 were often over subscribed and those getting their entries in late sometimes missed out on a start. When the VMX in its modern form can match that kind of support we'll be able to say that the sports in good health. Some classes sometimes get zero entries which has to make some kind of statement. What's considered 'healthy' entry levels today just tells me that we've accepted lower standards.
-
Can we please stop trying to claim that the bikes that live in those gaps are all the same as each other?
I don't recall anybody saying or meaning that, especially me. You're playing the fact twist game again Nathan.
It has been said many times. Bill has said it more than once in this tread.
No, not at all. Firko has repeatedly said that "Pre-85 is running below its potential".
And I still do despite Scrivo's statistics. For the first 10 years of VMX (which was purely pre 75 and earlier), Penrith club (and I'm sure, clubs in Queensland and Victoria as well), supported full grids in three capacity classes with three age groups plus full grids in pre 70 250 & 500 , four stroke 250 & 500 and healthy to sometimes full grids in pre 65, all in over fifties and all in over sixties at club level. At Nationals level some classes such as the over 30 250 were often over subscribed and those getting their entries in late sometimes missed out on a start. When the VMX in its modern form can match that kind of support we'll be able to say that the sports in good health. Some classes sometimes get zero entries which has to make some kind of statement. What's considered 'healthy' entry levels today just tells me that we've accepted lower standards.
I agree. But Pre-85 is clearly NSW's strongest class, with Evo close behind.
Every other class is a long way behind.
You can't use the weakness of Pre-85 as an excuse to deny the validity of Pre-95 as a vintage class - not while it is the strongest class in the state.
Newer classes don't cannibalise the older ones - they help strengthen them.
I still can't get my head around how "more participants" is a negative for the sport.
-
Start your own club like Viper in Victoria did Nathan. They get healthy numbers in everything from Evo to moderns. Essentially, there is no good reason why post 1995 bikes can't compete with the moderns at club level. National and state level might be a bit of an ask, but I can almost guarantee a good peddler won't finish last. A mate of mines son took out his old mans 1987 YZ250 in an open MX event against all the modern four strokes and was more than competitve (at the pointy end) until he got caught up in a first turn tangle and bent the shit out of the back of the bike.
The problem with having the older "bugger all suspension" bikes in with the long travel and more power bikes is the state of the track they leave behind them. I was stupid enough to take my 73 Elsinore to one meeting, rode in pre78 and was reasonably competitive but came home with a broken pipe mount, a dented pipe, bent forks and swingarm. The acceleration and braking bumps caused by the long travel bikes are a killer on earlier machines.
If you want the pre95 and 00's to run at a national PCVMX competition then surely you need to start at club level instead of aiming straight for inclusion of these eras to run at PCVMX Titles.
Check out the Viper website to see what classes they run and find out if you can introduce the same format into Heaven"s race program (if that's who you ride with) and find out what happens. You never know, it could be green lights all the way. I think it would be a much more likely positive outcome than trying to get established classic/vintage oriented clubs to change their respective constitutions.
-
Start your own club like Viper in Victoria did Nathan.
No club can live on one era alone. Norths is healthy enough as a Pre-90 focussed club that welcomes Evo and Pre-85 bikes, but it is following the Viper/old Heaven model of tagging along to other clubs' race meets.
I'm sure it would more than survive if Heaven became a pre-78-only club, and stopped offering Pre-85 & Evo classes - but why would Heaven even consider doing that?
We had the perfect storm in the late 80s and early 90s.
Plenty of enthusiam without decades of grudges and bickering and negativity, LOTS of exposure in the hugely dominant dirt bike media (ie: ADB), bikes that were the right age for the target riders (or visa-versa ;) ), a cheap form of racing during a recession, and almost simultaneous beginnings in the two most populous states.
What was possible then, is beyond the powers of mortal beings now.
-
No club can live on one era alone
That's a big statement Nathan. You only have to look westward to the WAVMX club which has stuck to a rigid pre 75 doctrine with outstanding success. You could also add the Classic Scrambles Club of Victoria who maintained their pre 75 membership base for many years but have recently opened entries up to pre '78.
-
No club can live on one era alone
That's a big statement Nathan. You only have to look westward to the WAVMX club which has stuck to a rigid pre 75 doctrine with outstanding success. You could also add the Classic Scrambles Club of Victoria who maintained their pre 75 membership base for many years but have recently opened entries up to pre '78.
Fair point. I was thinking more about the newer eras (even Pre-85 which is the most successful in NSW & I believe Qld), or any new club that tried to survive on pre-75 only.
Also worth noting that the CSC have embraced Pre-78 also, and the Western Australians are debating it.
[pedant mode] No club runs Pre-75 only. Even the examples given also embrace the older eras.[/pedant]
-
The CSC have embraced Pre 78 to align with the Classic/Post Classic split.Interestingly in the light of your logic, none of their 16 bikes entered for the 2013 Classic is later than Pre75.
Pre 78 is a great class, and has come of age since the split. There were 93 Pre78 bikes at last year's Classics as part of the record entry.They are all great eras and have their enthusiastic followers as demonstrated by the success of the Connondale Classic this year.
Your arguments are not supported by the facts and statistics and I can only assume you continue this excercise to stir up Firko.I think Firko is leading on the facts and you on the fantasy.It is entertaning if not really informative, so keep it rolling.
Pity you won't make it to the Classics this year, but look forward to your entry for the Post Classics on 25-27 next April.
:-)
-
The CSC have embraced Pre 78 to align with the Classic/Post Classic split.Interestingly in the light of your logic, none of their 16 bikes entered for the 2013 Classic is later than Pre75.
Pre 78 is a great class, and has come of age since the split. There were 93 Pre78 bikes at last year's Classics as part of the record entry.They are all great eras and have their enthusiastic followers as demonstrated by the success of the Connondale Classic this year.
Your arguments are not supported by the facts and statistics and I can only assume you continue this excercise to stir up Firko.I think Firko is leading on the facts and you on the fantasy.It is entertaning if not really informative, so keep it rolling.
Pity you won't make it to the Classics this year, but look forward to your entry for the Post Classics on 25-27 next April.
:-)
Col,
We all see what we want to see - and that aplies equally to you (and Greg and Firko) as it does to me. ;)
Greg's stats clearly showed that Pre-85 is the most popular class of VMX in NSW, but somehow those stats show that Firko's statment about the ill-health of Pre-85 is valid? ::)
My statement was "No club can live on one era alone " and it is correct. The pre-75 clubs include the older eras, just as the pre-90s clubs do.
VMXWA is the shining light of the pre-75 scene - if they were silly enough to refuse entries from pre-70 bikes, the club would surely contract to the point of being unviable within a few years.
No club can live on one era alone.
Look what happened to the NSW Pre-75 register. A good idea, supported by a lot of good people, but it went nowhere. Why? Because the rewards aren't worth the effort.
I have no interest in denigrating or dismissing any era of bike racing. I personally have minimal interest in Pre-65 or in Pre-00, but I respect and admire the people that have a passion for them.
What do I gain by dismissing them as somehow irrelevant? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
What do I gain by accepting and encouraging their enthusiasm? Another VMXer. Another person to respect and encourage my enthusiasm for Pre-90 and Pre-95. Another competitor to help fill the start gate. Another member to strengthen my club. Another mate to drink beer & talk shit with.
I still can't get my head around how "more participants" is a negative for the sport.
-
Nathan, nobody but you has suggested and club can live on one era alone. We all know that attempting do that would not work. There simply aren't enough of 1 particular era for it to be feasible.
All of this is rambling on to the point of being moot in my opinion.
Have you bothered to check out what Viper in Victoria does with it's program? They seem to have a good formula for allowing the later model bikes to compete.
If it's not good enough for the 1995 or 2000 model bikes to race at club level for you and you insist on them being included at Title events, then put forward a proposal for them to be included with the Evolution/pre85/pre90 movement.
I don't think anybody would suggest that having more people/bikes is a bad thing Nathan. I argued for 2 years with the CSC to allow pre78 into the fold for this exact reason (more bums on seats) and was not so politely told what they (committee) thought of the idea. I was a whinging trouble maker! Now they are doing it. The point I am trying to make is you need to plant the seeds at club level first. In theory, if it works at club level then it should follow on to championships not long after.
The cancellation of the PCVMX this year is evidence that something is missing within that era. Maybe the long travel lot want later bikes included as well? But, no one will ever know if allowing pre95 and pre00 will work if someone doesn't propose it to their club first so that a proposal can be put forward to members and to the governing bodies.
-
I reckon I'm a hell of a lot closer to agreeing with you than you think. I've not once "insisted on it being at title events". My intent here is to disassemble the various and assorted arguments against Pre-95.
Apparently I mis-interpreted your comment "Start your own club like Viper in Victoria did Nathan"?
There's already two VMX clubs in NSW, that cover all of the established classes. Starting a new club would either be restricted to a single era (and therefore be doomed to failure), or fragment the competitor base.
The failure of the 2013 PCMXNs was a huge disappointment to a lot of people, no question. But when Classic Dirt has also fallen over, then I don't think it is fair to place (the majority of) the blame on the riders of post-77 bikes... ;)
-
I haven't kept up with all the pages. The perfect scenario would be to have two clubs that cater for the different eras. For eg bmcc as they are up to Evo. Qvmx then have a class cut off that starts at and including Evo. The hardest thing I see is getting through all the classes if all are welcomed. I am all for pre 95. One club does the early stuff and the other does the later.
-
I haven't kept up with all the pages. The perfect scenario would be to have two clubs that cater for the different eras. For eg bmcc as they are up to Evo. Qvmx then have a class cut off that starts at and including Evo. The hardest thing I see is getting through all the classes if all are welcomed. I am all for pre 95. One club does the early stuff and the other does the later.
How easy was that?
:)
-
You only have to look westward
How easy was that?
:)
And of course in the real world,everyone has to work hard at making it happen 8)
-
How easy was that?
Really easy but you seem to be arguing a point with yourself, without going back over every post I don't recall anyone suggesting the contrary.
-
I haven't kept up with all the pages. The perfect scenario would be to have two clubs that cater for the different eras. For eg bmcc as they are up to Evo. Qvmx then have a class cut off that starts at and including Evo. The hardest thing I see is getting through all the classes if all are welcomed. I am all for pre 95. One club does the early stuff and the other does the later.
I think the situation we have here in SEQ is perfect. I don't think a club excluding earlier vmx bikes eg. pre evo would be a good idea. The overlap between clubs/classes seems to work very well as it is.
-
I haven't kept up with all the pages. The perfect scenario would be to have two clubs that cater for the different eras. For eg bmcc as they are up to Evo. Qvmx then have a class cut off that starts at and including Evo. The hardest thing I see is getting through all the classes if all are welcomed. I am all for pre 95. One club does the early stuff and the other does the later.
Makes perfectly good sense. That's exactly what is happening in Victoria with Viper, VCM and CSC. There is a bit of overlap between clubs but all eras are catered for, one way or another. I must add though that VCM is not a club, but a register that runs meetings under other clubs jurisdiction. It works well and there is always plenty of numbers at the meetings. It (VCM) caters for pre65 to Evo, with pre80 minibikes (XR's) and even pit bikes . You may laugh at the pit bikes, but geez some of them are very serious, big dollar units. And the racing is always close to the best for the day! It just goes to show what can be achieved with an open mind and a bit of hard work.
-
I haven't kept up with all the pages. The perfect scenario would be to have two clubs that cater for the different eras. For eg bmcc as they are up to Evo. Qvmx then have a class cut off that starts at and including Evo. The hardest thing I see is getting through all the classes if all are welcomed. I am all for pre 95. One club does the early stuff and the other does the later.
I think the situation we have here in SEQ is perfect. I don't think a club excluding earlier vmx bikes eg. pre evo would be a good idea. The overlap between clubs/classes seems to work very well as it is.
It does. From the aspect of adding classes, there's only so much time in the day. I think through time restraints and adding extra classes, there will have to come a time for eg qvmx to have to drop or combine classes to both get full fields and to get through the days racing. I don't think there is enough room for a third club. Or is there? To cater for later classes.
-
I haven't kept up with all the pages. The perfect scenario would be to have two clubs that cater for the different eras. For eg bmcc as they are up to Evo. Qvmx then have a class cut off that starts at and including Evo. The hardest thing I see is getting through all the classes if all are welcomed. I am all for pre 95. One club does the early stuff and the other does the later.
I think the situation we have here in SEQ is perfect. I don't think a club excluding earlier vmx bikes eg. pre evo would be a good idea. The overlap between clubs/classes seems to work very well as it is.
It does. From the aspect of adding classes, there's only so much time in the day. I think through time restraints and adding extra classes, there will have to come a time for eg qvmx to have to drop or combine classes to both get full fields and to get through the days racing. I don't think there is enough room for a third club. Or is there? To cater for later classes.
No, I think you'd have to combine classes which gets more and more difficult for the organisers as most riders have more than one bike.
-
do you mean.'it only becomes more work for organisers if your scoring' Paul .
capacity races or grading, could help at club level :)
-
do you mean.'it only becomes more work for organisers if your scoring' Paul .
capacity races or grading, could help at club level :)
No, just in terms of trying to keep everyone happy. Combining classes when most people have multiple bikes across multiple classes is a bit of a juggling act. Especially if Brad turns up with a bike for every class.
-
I'm with 090. Mainline's post explains the basic reason for the split. At National level the sport was choking on it's own success and Pre 60 was being neglected and no room for introduction of Pre90, Evo age groups etc.
Now we have a healthy Pre60 entry for the Nats, a growing Pre85 and 90 as evidenced by the Conondale Classic. Hang on, I've heard all this before.
-
I think the situation we have here in SEQ is perfect. I don't think a club excluding earlier vmx bikes eg. pre evo would be a good idea. The overlap between clubs/classes seems to work very well as it is.
There's little doubt that Qld is VMX's golden child ATM, for a number of good reasons - the co-operative split certainly appears to be one of them.
-
Firko quote from another thread...
At the risk of repeating myself yet again and falling into the same stubborn funk as you Nathan, my only problem with your proposal to introduce a pre 95 class is that it's too soon after the introduction of the pre 90 class, a class that has barely made an impact on the sport so far. For fluck sake, the pre 85 class is barely operating at 40% potential let alone thinning the ranks with two extra divisions. I honestly believe that over the next two years we need to work together to attract new racers to fatten the ranks of the classes we already have. It pisses me off no end to see half full grids in all classes. The goal should be to get what we've got now running at as full a potential as possible. If that isn't done there'll be four, then five and then maybe six post classic divisions all running at less than half of their potential and wouldn't that be ugly?....................
The main problem I have with your argument is that it is quite vague:
1. Why does adding a class cause "thinning of the ranks"? I've seen the exact opposite multiple times - people come in and then their interest expands to other/older eras.
2. How do you define "full potential"? It seems to be a deliberately movable goal-post.
3. Why are the under-subscribed classes never mentioned other than as an objection to adding a new class?
4. What are we doing about expanding the current classes?
-
1 History shows as newer eras come in, earlier classes drop out. Fortunately the "split"at national level, together with some forward thinking clubs, is reversing this trend.
You have the efrontary to use this years 2013 Classic Nats, compared with the 2012 record as an example of the "dire straits" of CMX. Sorry to prick your bubble but with a week to go for late entries the numbers arent far short of Crystal Brook ( which all who went judged to be a great success) which included Evo and Pre85. Which means of course that Classic numbers have increased.Also half the classes show an increase over 2012. We won't achieve 2012 level, but this has been achieved in 6 weeks, at the wrong end of a busy season.
2 Full potential is of course a movable target. Why put a defined limit to growth?
3 Because the under subscribed classes need to be nurtured back to health, not swpt away.
Last year we had a championship class of Pre60, the first in a long time. This year that class has increased.
4 "We" are getting out there and promoting our sport and organising events.
Somehow I get the feeling that this is a wasted excercise, but being an optimist one can but hope.
-
There's 2 kinds of people.....
The finger pointers....
And the workers...
There's obviously more finger pointers in the so called States that aren't fairing to well.
You only get out of something what you put in.
If there are problems then the solution is to work harder (not point the finger harder)
Where I'm at we have lots of hard workers...and that's why where successful.
Couldn't be more simpler. ;)
-
There's 2 kinds of people.....
The finger pointers....
And the workers...
There's obviously more finger pointers in the so called States that aren't fairing to well.
You only get out of something what you put in.
If there are problems then the solution is to work harder (not point the finger harder)
Where I'm at we have lots of hard workers...and that's why where successful.
Couldn't be more simpler. ;)
Yep, I will never cease to be amazed that the same people put in the work, meeting after meeting, and the same people point fingers TELLING the volunteers what they did wrong and what they NEED to do to fix it..... then walk away and play with their bike!
-
I'm not going to get into any more pissing contests. I've clearly made my points so I'm not going to keep repeating myself any more..............Davey's correct though, and I can feel a new era emerging here in NSW, there are too many people who care for it not to gain new momentum. The doom and gloom must stop now!
-
1 History shows as newer eras come in, earlier classes drop out. Fortunately the "split"at national level, together with some forward thinking clubs, is reversing this trend.
You have the efrontary to use this years 2013 Classic Nats, compared with the 2012 record as an example of the "dire straits" of CMX. Sorry to prick your bubble but with a week to go for late entries the numbers arent far short of Crystal Brook ( which all who went judged to be a great success) which included Evo and Pre85. Which means of course that Classic numbers have increased.Also half the classes show an increase over 2012. We won't achieve 2012 level, but this has been achieved in 6 weeks, at the wrong end of a busy season.
2 Full potential is of course a movable target. Why put a defined limit to growth?
3 Because the under subscribed classes need to be nurtured back to health, not swpt away.
Last year we had a championship class of Pre60, the first in a long time. This year that class has increased.
4 "We" are getting out there and promoting our sport and organising events.
Somehow I get the feeling that this is a wasted excercise, but being an optimist one can but hope.
1. Nobody wants to "sweep away" any classes.
You also contradicted yourself in saying that newer classes hurt the older classes, but that they don't...
What I can say without equivocation, is that LOTS of people get involved for a particular era, and then discover/build an interest in other (usually older) eras.
For me, Pre-70 and Pre-78 weren't even on my radar until I got involved. A good mate was the same - he took some persuasion to get on a Pre-90 bike, but now owns Pre-75, Pre-78, Evo and Pre-85 bikes...
2. Nobody has ever suggested limiting growth. My point was that Firko repeatedly sets "Pre-85 needs to reach its potential" as a goal, without even the vaguest hint of what he thinks its potential is.
3. Your answer deliberately ignores the point I was making. It's GREAT that the older classes are growing again, but Firko (and others) never seem to mention them unless its to object to Pre-85, Pre-90 or now Pre-95.
Regardless: The existence of Pre-95 is unrelated to the health of Pre-65.
4. "We" are doing a shithouse job of promotion. Most clubs do a pretty good job given the resources available to them, but the sport of VMX as a whole seems intent on being invisible.
It's no co-incidence that VMX's boom time was when the only major magazine featured a regular VMX column and regular VMX features. Dirt Action picked up the ball that post-GE ADB dropped, but it was clear that Ashenhurst's enthusiasm was short of GE's passion - and we're still talking about something that waned and died nearly 15 years ago...
I can't recall the last time I saw a VMX article in a mainstream dirtbike magazine - probably SideTrack in the early 00s, for crying out loud.
Vinduro, on the other hand, has a far greater mainstream presence with semi-regular articles in TrailZone and Old Bike. Is the growth of Vinduro and its relatively high levels of publicity a complete co-incidence?
Similarly, see if you can find a public reference to the 2013 PCMXNs outside of this forum, the MA website, or in AJ's column in the back of VMX magazine.
I know of/can find a grand total of ONE reference to that event - a thread that I started on a modern dirt bike forum.
Unless you were already actively involved in VMX, that event was completely invisible.
I've seen the ads in VMX Mag for the Connondale Classic and the Qld hosted Nats - such publicity is not the only thing that makes these events a success, but it certainly is one of the things.
"We" do a pretty good job of preaching to the converted, but we do a shithouse job of letting the rest of the world know we exist.
None of this is an argument against Pre-95 either, BTW.
-
"We" do a pretty good job of preaching to the converted, but we do a shithouse job of letting the rest of the world know we exist.
This i agree with completely , but it would be nice if i could offer a solution rather than just agree ::)
-
There's 2 kinds of people.....
The finger pointers....
And the workers...
There's obviously more finger pointers in the so called States that aren't fairing to well.
You only get out of something what you put in.
If there are problems then the solution is to work harder (not point the finger harder)
Where I'm at we have lots of hard workers...and that's why where successful.
Couldn't be more simpler. ;)
Like your bushfire comment, you just showed how poorly you know me, Davey.
I've put in plenty of years to being a worker for motorsport: my club committee, the State Council, the local championship committee, the state advisory panel, the AASA working group, numerous submissions, helping at events, helping to organise events, as well as being a competitor.
You will not find anyone from any of my motorsport involvement who will be able to give you an example of me welching on my responsibilities or "being a finger pointer".
-
"We" do a pretty good job of preaching to the converted, but we do a shithouse job of letting the rest of the world know we exist.
This i agree with completely , but it would be nice if i could offer a solution rather than just agree ::)
I'm far from an expert - hopefully someone out there has more knowledge (that's you Tony), and can offer a better insight.
We should beware of expecting big results instantly. Having Dirt Action print the guts of one press release once should not be expected to double entries overnight, for example. It needs to be viewed as an on-going commitment too (not for any one person, but for the sport as a whole).
Similarly, we need to do things well in advance - published media has a lead-time, and punters need time to get their head around an idea.
My thoughts are that mainstream dirtbike media offers the best value for our money/time.
We could do with a far better on-line presence. These forums and the various club websites are great for the nitty gritty stuff, but I think there would be a benefit from a relatively simple "shiny things" website for the basics - event dates, event flyers (http://www.heaven-vmx.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Bulahdelah-Vinduro-Flyer.pdf), links to the clubs' websites, etc.
Most magazines will consider running unsolicited articles on events, providing they are of decent quality and they get enough good quality photos. I reckon I could manage the first bit, definitely can't help with the second.
Press releases are fairly easy to get into the specialist media, and are relatively easy way to get coverage to get into the mainstream (dirtbike) media.
Fliers are very useful. Heaven does this very well, but I dont know how far or wide those fliers are spread.
It wouldn't take many people to print out a few and take them to their local bike shops, in the month or two before an event.
There's more, but that's the guts of what I see as being the main things.
Do MA offer any help with publicity for big events?
-
F !!!. No further comment other than 2013 CMX Nats fliers went out to 200 email addresses with the request to print and distribuite. A further 100 hard copies have been distribuited.
I'll not waste any more time on this fruitless excercise, I have a Nationals to organise.
-
F !!!. No further comment other than 2013 CMX Nats fliers went out to 200 email addresses with the request to print and distribuite. A further 100 hard copies have been distribuited.
I'll not waste any more time on this fruitless excercise, I have a Nationals to organise.
You're doing a great job Col leading by example with no bullshit. We need more like you!
-
You're doing a great job Col leading by example with no bullshit. We need more like you!
I couldn't agree more John. Colin hasn't been in the best of health in recent times but still does more than 10 people half his age.
-
To be fair i dont think anyone including Nathan is suggesting that you haven't done a great job saving the CMX nats COL
The fact that you have pulled it off at such short notice is awesome :) and full credit to you .
But he has a point about the general lack of exposure of ANY VMX event to the general public or any real world exposure outside of those of us already playing in the sandpit .
The biggest form of exposure to the general public currently is forums like this.
Getting events into VMX mag is all very nice but its preaching to the Choir, getting spectators to events and mainstream media will help events grow and secure the future of what were doing .
-
F !!!. No further comment other than 2013 CMX Nats fliers went out to 200 email addresses with the request to print and distribuite. A further 100 hard copies have been distribuited.
I'll not waste any more time on this fruitless excercise, I have a Nationals to organise.
Why the hell are you so eager to take everything personally?!
Have a look at what I wrote - I've repeatedly used Qld as an example of doing it properly.
Edit: plus what Bill said.
-
I would have thought the recent bike show at Suttos would have been the perfect venue to push the Post 85 bikes. Apart from Shaun Galloway's efforts ( as always ) I can't recall any others.
I guess you reap what you sow
-
Most Mags will publish a well written press release. Problem is most of us have no idea how write one correctly.
We dont even do the Nat results with a few pictures for mags like AMCN. Mags love good free content that they can just copy paste in the news section.
-
Ted, The publicity stuff is not for ANY era particularly - it is about the sport as a whole.
-
When you read about the recent failures, Tasmania ( logistical costs ) Lakes ( no camping ) CD ( shit track ) Canberra ( no track at all ) these things have to be considered before we declare doom and gloom on VMX.
I really can't see too much wrong with VMX. All clubs seem to have very well attended meets. In saying that though I reckon it has a use by date. The young guys just aren't interested in what we do, which was made quite evident to me at Suttos show.
As we get older i think we will see a massive shift in favour of Vinduro. Maybe not so with the 10% that win everything but with the other 90% that just want to have a ride. It is non competitive, f..k all rules, cheaper and you get unlimited riding time.
Just my take on it
-
When you read about the recent failures, Tasmania ( logistical costs ) Lakes ( no camping ) CD ( shit track ) Canberra ( no track at all ) these things have to be considered before we declare doom and gloom on VMX.
I really can't see too much wrong with VMX. All clubs seem to have very well attended meets. In saying that though I reckon it has a use by date. The young guys just aren't interested in what we do, which was made quite evident to me at Suttos show.
As we get older i think we will see a massive shift in favour of Vinduro. Maybe not so with the 10% that win everything but with the other 90% that just want to have a ride. It is non competitive, f..k all rules, cheaper and you get unlimited riding time.
Just my take on it
I reckon you're on the money there with most things Ted, dunno about the Vinduro part though.
You're reasons for the event cancellations are spot on even though the organisers of those events and others on here don't accept that, they were the reasons most Queenslanders weren't interested in going.
You can be sure that next years Post Classic Nats at Echo Valley with camping available will be a success and the same for Classic Dirt if it ends up back in Qld.
So you're right Ted there really isn't too much wrong with VMX...
-
Nothing at all wrong in vintage.
Heaven Canowindra this past weekend 100+ entrants
Holbrook Vinduro next weekend 70+ entrants
Nats two weeks time. 100+ entries
Heaven Lakes 2 weeks later up to 100 entries
If you wanna ride there seems to be something on most weekends these days.
-
I would argue about CD being a shit track
-
It's not my opinion, just one point that stood out more than all others in the wrap up. I didn't even ride it, I spent all my time on the enduro loop.
-
It's not my opinion, just one point that stood out more than all others in the wrap up. I didn't even ride it, I spent all my time on the enduro loop.
But the official line is all "the economy is bad"... This is a huge part of what I have the shits about - collectively, we gloss over everything using the first excuse that falls readily to hand. CD is a commercial enterprise so they can do whatever they want, but when events are promised but don't eventuate, it damages the whole scene - and we've lost half of the big six events in the last two years due to a lack of entries.
And yet nobody seems at all keen to discuss - or listen to - the reasons why people are staying away from these events.
Surely this is dooming us to repeating the same failures in the future?
-
FWIW, I didn't like the MX track at CD9, but the Pre-78 and Vinduro tracks made it irrelevant.
-
It's not my opinion, just one point that stood out more than all others in the wrap up. I didn't even ride it, I spent all my time on the enduro loop.
But the official line is all "the economy is bad"... This is a huge part of what I have the shits about - collectively, we gloss over everything using the first excuse that falls readily to hand. CD is a commercial enterprise so they can do whatever they want, but when events are promised but don't eventuate, it damages the whole scene - and we've lost half of the big six events in the last two years due to a lack of entries.
And yet nobody seems at all keen to discuss - or listen to - the reasons why people are staying away from these events.
Surely this is dooming us to repeating the same failures in the future?
Ted listed a couple of reasons why the events failed and I agree with him but nobody wants to accept it.
Funny how the economy is so much better in Qld..
-
FWIW, I didn't like the MX track at CD9, but the Pre-78 and Vinduro tracks made it irrelevant.
Why is that irrelevant? If I turned up with my 490 Maico I would've only had the mx track to ride with no interest in riding the Vinduro track. There would be plenty in the same boat.
-
When you read about the recent failures, Tasmania ( logistical costs ) Lakes ( no camping ) CD ( shit track ) Canberra ( no track at all ) these things have to be considered before we declare doom and gloom on VMX.
I really can't see too much wrong with VMX. All clubs seem to have very well attended meets. In saying that though I reckon it has a use by date. The young guys just aren't interested in what we do, which was made quite evident to me at Suttos show.
As we get older i think we will see a massive shift in favour of Vinduro. Maybe not so with the 10% that win everything but with the other 90% that just want to have a ride. It is non competitive, f..k all rules, cheaper and you get unlimited riding time.
Just my take on it
Well said Ted :)
Your Suttos show was a great incentive to gain exposure,its interesting that the younger generation didn't show much interest.
I didn't go to CD 9 but i think the Qld CDs would be a hard act to follow .
-
Ted listed a couple of reasons why the events failed and I agree with him but nobody wants to accept it.
Funny how the economy is so much better in Qld..
It's not me that won't accept it - I even agreed with your comment about the MX track. It was irrelevant for me because I had/borrowed bikes to ride elsewhere at CD9, and those tracks were good.
The lack of camping at Lake was definitely a factor, but not the only one.
Good point about the economy. :)
-
Funny how the economy is so much better in Qld..
Yeah I was thinking that but wasn't sure. The mining boom in Queensland and WA might have made those states a little cocooned from the hard times felt in NSW and Victoria. I'm not saying that Joh Average hasn't felt the pinch in Queensland, it's just that it might not have been so hard hitting. If people are using the track as an excuse for not entering CD and the lack of camping for not entering the Lakes Nats I reckon we've become a bit soft, spoiled and selfish. We need to stop being so precious and understand that not every event is going to be at Conondale and that good people go out on a limb, both commitment wise and financially to provide these events for the us. Teds show'n'shine was another example that some people turn a blind eye to those who actually do something to promote the sport. While we had a great time and there were a lot of good bikes at the show, the Gen X pre 85 punters were largely M.I.A.. I know how much effort Ted put into the show so those who promised to be there and didn't show up let both Ted and the sport down big time.
I thoroughly agree with Nathans points on more promotion for VMX but wonder if the current generation of racers would care or contribute.
-
Funny how the economy is so much better in Qld..
I don't know if you said this in jest JohnnyO but I could not disagree with this train of thought more. At best QLD has a 2 speed economy where some of the state linked to the resources boom is cruising along nicely (and even that is showing the signs of slowing) and the rest of the state (like where I live on the Sunshine Coast for example) is on struggle street. In my local economy, things have never been worse. I know because I'm one of the small business owners facing the wall ..... not there yet but with local shops vacancy running at 50% and my 2 landlords both giving me huge rent discounts to stay, you can easily see we are struggling big time.
Sweeping generalisations like "Qld doing so much better" is just not true.
-
Just be happy you don't live this side of the water ::) we have been fuct for the last 6 years :(
People from overseas keep telling me how strong our dollar is ::) I found that to be a positive on my recent trip .
But try living here , 2ltrs milk $6.50 , Ltr petrol $2.40 , rates increased by 50% in a year , i make reasonable money ( by peasant stds ) and its getting tougher and tougher ::)
Still the best country bar none but governed by a succession of self serving kunts >:(
-
Just be happy you don't live this side of the water ::) we have been fuct for the last 6 years :(
People from overseas keep telling me how strong our dollar is ::) I found that to be a positive on my recent trip .
But try living here , 2ltrs milk $6.50 , Ltr petrol $2.40 , rates increased by 50% in a year , i make reasonable money ( by peasant stds ) and its getting tougher and tougher ::)
Still the best country bar none but governed by a succession of self serving kunts >:(
Fair enough Bill .. I was just commenting about QLD and my local economy in particular in response to a post above.
-
"I thoroughly agree with Nathans points on more promotion for VMX but wonder if the current generation of racers would care or contribute".
Nathan is absolutely correct on lack of promotion. It was an argument I continually had with my former club. I thought it would be a great idea to include a few flyers with each newsletter so that members from different areas could distribute them to shops etc to post in their windows. The idea was as well received as a fart in a mini minor on a summer day. The executives shot it down with negativity around it being a waste of time and money because no one would bother handing the flyers out......The club was/is involved with Vinduro at the time and the promotion of it was all over the media, even on local radio stations, while the numbers for pre75 (at the time) club scrambles days were dwindling big time. It gave me the irrates no end! I ended up despising being on the track committee, spending a day or 2 preparing for race day, only to have so called races of 2 or 3 bikes! It got to the point where I wouldn't bother taking any race bike as I didn't see the point in it. There were more marshals on the track than racers!
Promotion has to start at club level. Without clubs promoting what they do, no one knows about it other than the inner circle. Viper in Victoria do a great job of promoting, I see their full size posters everywhere. Even when Peter posts on here, his post contains the Viper figure and includes dates etc. More of it needs to be done. There are free advertising spaces for events in MC trader and cycle news etc that aren't being utilised by VMX clubs. It seems all the vintage and rally clubs use the free space to promote themselves and up coming events.
There, I got that off my chest.....
-
No wonder so many Kiwis come over here to live.
2ltrs milk $6.50........Oz $2.50
Ltr petrol $2.40.......Oz $1.40 at the moment.
-
2ltrs milk $6.50........ Conversion into AUD$ @0.87= AUD$5.66- Price in Oz $2.50
Ltr petrol $2.40.......Conversion into AUD$ @0.87= AUD$2.09- Price in = Oz $1.40 at the moment.
WTF!!!
>:(
-
I'm pretty sure that Johnny O's comment on the relative health of the Qld economy was made ironically: Queensland's economy is certainly NOT a reason why VMX is so much healthier than the rest of the east coast - if anything VMX in Qld is healthy DESPITE the economy.
There was a lot of talk about Qld going into recession a few months back - even if it didn't happen, the relative health of the Qld economy is certainly not a reason for the health of VMX in Qld.
-
While those items are dearer I have found hotels to be way cheaper than over here. At least in NZ you actually get to drive your car. Unlike here continually sitting stopped in a gridlock.
If you want to live in the most scenic country on the planet, bar none, that is a small price to pay
I would live in Hanmer Springs at the drop of a hat.
-
I'm pretty sure that Johnny O's comment on the relative health of the Qld economy was made ironically: Queensland's economy is certainly NOT a reason why VMX is so much healthier than the rest of the east coast - if anything VMX in Qld is healthy DESPITE the economy.
There was a lot of talk about Qld going into recession a few months back - even if it didn't happen, the relative health of the Qld economy is certainly not a reason for the health of VMX in Qld.
Exactly..
-
I'm pretty sure that Johnny O's comment on the relative health of the Qld economy was made ironically: Queensland's economy is certainly NOT a reason why VMX is so much healthier than the rest of the east coast - if anything VMX in Qld is healthy DESPITE the economy.
There was a lot of talk about Qld going into recession a few months back - even if it didn't happen, the relative health of the Qld economy is certainly not a reason for the health of VMX in Qld.
Exactly..
:) Which is why I prefaced what I said with :
I don't know if you said this in jest JohnnyO but ... blah blah blah
-
After the recent cancellations of a few major events I have to ask this question:
Has anybody been sent a questionnaire asking why we didn't attend these events?
Either through your MA license, day license ( they have our names and addresses ) or by way of a tear out section in VMX magazine.
-
I'm not saying that Joh Average hasn't felt the pinch in Queensland, it's just that it might not have been so hard hitting
I wasn't alluding that it had much to do with VMX's strength either. I was thinking along the lines of day to day living.
-
craig 4l for $6 or 3.60 2L at our dairy - you obviously leave shopping to the lovely wife
I was in sydney weekend C/d was supposed to be $1.65l petrol
-
Ted dont be silly they take your money all year,do we think they really care or are here to advance the sport that pays there wages??
-
After the recent cancellations of a few major events I have to ask this question:
Has anybody been sent a questionnaire asking why we didn't attend these events?
Either through your MA license, day license ( they have our names and addresses ) or by way of a tear out section in VMX magazine.
Big part of what I've been harping on about.
The problem with a formal sort of questionnaire is identifying the people that didn't enter. I mean, my mum didn't enter but it would be silly to send her a questionnaire (silly example, obviously - but hopefully you get the point).
This forum would be capable of giving us a good idea, but nobody with any influence seems the slightest bit interested. Plus the results would have to keep in mind that it is more "preaching to the choir" stuff.
-
craig 4l for $6 or 3.60 2L at our dairy - you obviously leave shopping to the lovely wife
I was in sydney weekend C/d was supposed to be $1.65l petrol
Come down country Mike , prices double ;)
-
You could post out to clubs with a questionnaire but then you need VMX 'rs who attend club meeting to fill them out.
IMO NSW biggest problem is there is no tracks near Sydney so people have lost the desire the flame has gone out and only the hardcore are left. It's just too hard for those people and there out of the system now and will take something exceptional to bring them back.
-
Big part of what I've been harping on about.
yep, i'm hearin ya
The problem with a formal sort of questionnaire is identifying the people that didn't enter. I mean, my mum didn't enter but it would be silly to send her a questionnaire (silly example, obviously - but hopefully you get the point).
i get the point
This forum would be capable of giving us a good idea, but nobody with any influence seems the slightest bit interested. Plus the results would have to keep in mind that it is more "preaching to the choir" stuff.
i think you're more than a nobody...
and
i think you've got influence as most folk here either read or reply to your posts and that you've also cited you're past efforts and experience...
and
i think you're interested as this subject has definately got more than a few pages of you're heart and soul all over it...
but are you interested enough to step up and act upon your ideas that your sharing here?
talk is cheap...
not meany to be a personal attack by any means but from me sitting on the fence and reading through this thread and understanding more than one side of the story at any given time i'd also agree that this forum has the ability to serve our sport well.
there's a great scope of knowledge and experience here and sniffing out the people that are doer's all takes time and respect...
love that word,
respect...
so where's the next breaking point?
an application/consultation/conversation with the powers that be will lead us to that answer...
-
...people have lost the desire the flame has gone out and only the hardcore are left. It's just too hard for those people and there out of the system now and will take something exceptional to bring them back.
For all the reasons people drop out, that is very true - once you lose someone, they are generally harder to entice than newbies.
I've lost track of the number of people I've spoken to, who got the shits over something (trivial or significant), and walked away.
Mostly, those people seem to draw a line under it, and won't come back even when you explain how that problem doesn't exist anymore.
------
The track location stuff is probably significant.
Personally, it is MUCH easier for me to go racing if it is a day trip - as soon as the event requires me to be away for a night, it all becomes considerably harder to get a leave pass.
Two nights away becomes a major operation, one way or another - and is a big part of why I've dramatically reduced the number of Heaven events I've done in the last few years (not a criticism, just an observation).
-
Big part of what I've been harping on about.
The problem with a formal sort of questionnaire is identifying the people that didn't enter. I mean, my mum didn't enter but it would be silly to send her a questionnaire (silly example, obviously - but hopefully you get the point).
That's exactly right, the majority of the feedback the clubs have now is from people who did enter not those who didn't.. Not an accurate assessment.
-
craig 4l for $6 or 3.60 2L at our dairy - you obviously leave shopping to the lovely wife
I was in sydney weekend C/d was supposed to be $1.65l petrol
Thanks Mike,I knew I should have been wary trusting the black Pom-everyone knows he only tracks the price of beer and NOS A5 kawasaki cylinders ;)
PS correct the better half is in charge of grocery procurement...
Anyway back to the thread.......
-
from the latest photos thought you might of been buying the food Craig ;D
Sorry - could not help myself.
Back to the thread.
-
I was in sydney weekend C/d was supposed to be $1.65l petrol
That was a high point in the cycle Mikey, it's at a low right now at $1.42 down the road from here.
-
Qld has 4 good Vintage tracks within driving distance of the CBD of Brisbane. IMO this is the real reason why the numbers are so different. Buladelah is the only purpose VMX track in NSW and it's a good 3 hours for most Sydney siders. I cant explain why the Victorian numbers are down from previous years thou.
-
....
but are you interested enough to step up and act upon your ideas that your sharing here?
....
Yes, absolutely - but not unconditionally...
When new ideas are floated on this forum, there's a large number of people who will automatically shit on them without even thinking about what has been suggested (and not just my ideas).
Not "tell me more" or "Show us what you've got and we'll think about it", but an automatic "no, everything is fine, no need for change, stop talking about it" response that stifles any debate and any progress. Look at how many pages of the SexMax thread it took before someone finally said "show us what you think the rules should look like and we can go from there"... and how many pages of "Nope" it took to get to that point... Same with the last few days' discussions - we go around and around and around until finally there's the hook (Ted's & JohnnyO's posts in this case) that breaks people out of the Nope routine and starts opening up the discussion.
The world bows to the people who say No, not to those who say Yes - until there's a concencus that an idea is worth pursuing (not that it has to be adopted), then I won't put in the time or effort to progressing it.
I've already wasted far too much of my life on stuff that has been shat upon by those who have a knee-jerk response to the idea of change. I've spent untold hours in meetings with people far smarter than I, working together to develop good solutions to problems, that are then brought down by some bullshit power play from someone who is supposed to be working toward the same goal...
So, yes, I am enthusiastic and postive and willing to help, but I'm not going to commit my time and energy to anything unless it is going to be considered fairly. And from what I've seen time and again, I don't hold high hopes that it ever would be.
-
Qld has 4 good Vintage tracks within driving distance of the CBD of Brisbane. IMO this is the real reason why the numbers are so different. Buladelah is the only purpose VMX track in NSW and it's a good 3 hours for most Sydney siders. I cant explain why the Victorian numbers are down from previous years thou.
That's definitely got a lot to do with it, I've been thinking the same thing.
-
I reckon the lack of tracks in Metro Sydney is THE major reason NSW has dropped back in numbers in the last decade. Four tracks in Brisbane is brilliant, I don't know how many tracks are in metropolitan Melbourne.....anyone tell us?
-
And the quality of the tracks JohnnyO, no ones going to come if there shit....SEQ has 6 tracks within 2 hours of Brisbane CBD....including 1 in town at the airport (Nudgee). There are half a dozen more that we don't use anymore but could if we wanted too. I spent today on the clubs bobcat (I'm paying for it now) and with a couple of other guys have dug the dam bigger and made the big berm higher, put a shitload of clay around the track to get ready for a big working bee in a month. We wont ride this track until next March but where good boy scouts....be prepared....workers V finger pointers!!. A mates in NZ at the moment and he's bringing me back a few copies of one of there dirt rider magazines that has a big article on the Conondale Classic in it. 8).Most of QVMX club days are 2 day'ers....Sat practice (with a junior and peewee track as well as Vinduro at Biddadaba), Sun race day...seniors only. It gets the whole family involved even to the extent people showing up Fri arvo...families love camping....it's part of VMX. We have riders come from as far as Coffs Harbor, Sunshine coast, Gold coast and Toowoomba...big area (some people come further....depends on the meet).
-
Consider this, when this (vmx) was all first brought in this country there was no precedent for most things, so anything that happened was a positive. Now there is a history, pages to look back upon and see things retrospectively and see error, reason for change and ways to move forward. I don't particularly agree 100% with any of the main players in this thread, but what I can say is that if the 50 and 60 odd year olds around this sport continue to be the ones running things how they see fit it has a veeery short life left. Yes the 30 and 40 something's will make a few "rookie" ;) mistakes but that's where the elder statesman come in and guide them gently using their experience In life an this sport, hand over the reigns if you want the cart to keep rolling long after your gone.... :) although some will chose to take it that way there is no malice in my words...
Cheers, Brendan
-
Consider this, when this (vmx) was all first brought in this country there was no precedent for most things, so anything that happened was a positive. Now there is a history, pages to look back upon and see things retrospectively and see error, reason for change and ways to move forward. I don't particularly agree 100% with any of the main players in this thread, but what I can say is that if the 50 and 60 odd year olds around this sport continue to be the ones running things how they see fit it has a veeery short life left. Yes the 30 and 40 something's will make a few "rookie" ;) mistakes but that's where the elder statesman come in and guide them gently using their experience In life an this sport, hand over the reigns if you want the cart to keep rolling long after your gone.... :) although some will chose to take it that way there is no malice in my words...
Cheers, Brendan
While I would like to agree, isn't the reality more like it's the ones that put up their hand to do the work? While 50 and 60 year olds are the ones willing to do the work, the real world says beggars can't be choosers.
-
oops....I removed this post by accident when attempting to remove another. The other one's now gone and this one returns with some additions.
I think Slakey's right on the money. During the VMX boom period between 1988 and 2000 Sydney based racers had two vintage friendly tracks in the Metropolitan area, Amaroo Park and Dargle and two hours away in Wollongong we had Mt Kembla which in those days featured a much more vintage friendly layout. We also had the use of VMX sympathetic tracks in Singleton, Little Hartley, Clarence and Bathurst....all about two hours from Sydney. Amaroo was the spiritual home of VMX since it had been revamped in 1988 purely for vintage motocross use and despite the occasional dust and pit over crowding problems, most racers loved the place. The beginning of the end of the first VMX boom period can be traced to the closure of Amaroo in August 1998. The Dargle Thumpernats track was also popular with punters but at around the same time Dargle owner Alan Smith indicated that he wasn't interested in running low dollar club days there any more as it cost just as much to prep the track for a club day as it did for a Thumpernats round. Seeing that he got a percentage of the Thumpernat gate you can see his reasoning. While thiose tracks were in operation we were getting 120-150 entries per meeting, all pre 75.
Today, the only tracks that still exist from that era are Mt Kembla and Clarence which are vastly different tracks to what they were in 1998. We've been promised a motocross venue across the road from Eastern Creek when the tip reaches its full up quota but don't hold your breath, that's years away (if it happens at all). MNSW have really dropped a bucket of turds on the motocross racers of NSW by not investing in property close to the Sydney metro for future motocross use when they had the money. They promised us a Broadford style venue with road race, dirt track and motocross circuits and we got the Eastern Creek GP circuit with no club day or off road facilities whatsoever. The lower entry base reflects the track problem but it's only one part of a multi faceted problem.
I also suspect that the Gen X based pre 85 rider demographic has more leisure options and a shorter attention span that the previous baby boomer generation . With technology and the lifestyle associated with it changing at a faster rate than at any other time in history, sticking to an old tech, nostalgia based past time might not appeal to some Gen X&Y potential entrants. I've noticed in my own family and friends that nostalgia is less a priority with Gen X and Y than with folks from my era. That's not a put down, it merely reflects a society that has a different take on the world than a previous generation racer and may have a small impact on attracting racers from that age demographic.
-
Consider this, when this (vmx) was all first brought in this country there was no precedent for most things, so anything that happened was a positive. Now there is a history, pages to look back upon and see things retrospectively and see error, reason for change and ways to move forward. I don't particularly agree 100% with any of the main players in this thread, but what I can say is that if the 50 and 60 odd year olds around this sport continue to be the ones running things how they see fit it has a veeery short life left. Yes the 30 and 40 something's will make a few "rookie" ;) mistakes but that's where the elder statesman come in and guide them gently using their experience In life an this sport, hand over the reigns if you want the cart to keep rolling long after your gone.... :) although some will chose to take it that way there is no malice in my words...
Cheers, Brendan
While I would like to agree, isn't the reality more like it's the ones that put up their hand to do the work? While 50 and 60 year olds are the ones willing to do the work, the real world says beggars can't be choosers.
Exactly Brad. It is a fact that the majority of the work for the running of a club is done by 50 and 60 year olds.... even 70 year olds in some cases. However, when someone younger, 40ish, comes along and puts in a lot of effort with race days etc, their opinion on seeing ways that might improve on what is being done, is mostly ignored and or treated with contempt.
The problem is in my observation though, there are not enough younger people willing to do a bit of work to learn how the "system" works. Without fresh ideas at the round table of all things wise, there is no need to change.
With risk comes reward and until something is done about the lack of promotion in our sport, we will all get older with the same people and no new faces to take the reigns
As has been mentioned in this thread, change seems to be something that very few, if any, of the founders of VMX will accept any idea of changing the way things have always been.
Luckily for QLD vmx, they have Supersenior Col and an obviously dedicated bunch of "doers" to keep on trying new things. And it's working.
-
very few, if any, founders of VMX will accept any idea of changing the way things have always been.
I'm a bit paranoid I suppose but I take it that statement is aimed at me :-\. Right from the start I'll state that I've never opposed change and in fact welcome positive change. What I'm against are changes that come along before any previous changes have had the time to take effect. The philosophy that introducing new divisions will somehow fix any perceived problems in our sport hasn't fully solved any of the problems so far, all they've achieved is to add another half filled division. Pre 85 is now starting to reach some sort of a solid following so pre 90 needs the same few years to reach its own potential before pre 95 or Pre 2000 are even considered.
Nathans points on promotion are valid and way more important than making any wholesale changes to the cutoffs. A big PR campaign similar to what I did for two whole years leading up to the first meeting in 1988 is absolutely essential and I'm prepared to start the ball rolling by submitting some PR pieces and possibly the odd feature to the modern moto press. I've been winding down my magazine work over the last few years but I'm inspired enough to see if I can help VMX get a new audience via ADB, DA, Trans Moto or whoever. As important as VMX Mag is, its preaching to the converted so it's time the straight press learned what we're about. After the Nats I'll sit down and write an introduction piece explaining the workings of VMX and Vinduro to a virgin readership. There are other, more articulate forum members than I that can also contribute in a similar manner. Even small club press releases or event announcements will usually get into a magazines news or 'What's On' sections. What about some more bike displays similar to Klub Kevlar and Teds efforts at modern meetings? Promoters are always looking for cheap ways to make their events bigger and better so a small 10 bike display with plenty of flyers would usually be welcomed. Back in the late 80's I had bike displays in Westfield shopping centres on Saturday mornings which worked really well in getting the word out there and attracting new racers. I don't know what shopping centre policy with such displays is today but a phonecall to find out wouldn't hurt.
There are shitloads more ways of raising awareness for our sport that I haven't covered here. If you can think of something that might work, don't just throw it at this forum, look further into it by approaching whoever it might be that can help you get it happening. All of these discussions amount to a pile of nothing if they aren't followed up so lets at least make a start.
-
If you really want to fix VMX in NSW it would take a revolt against MCNSW. Maybe a class action from clubs asking for the land fund money back which obliviously has not spent would gain enough attention.
Nathan for president ;D
-
If you can agree to the significance of these bikes and this era now, what are your thoughts on them being race classes in the near future???
Pre 85 isn't running anything near half of its potential and as Davey says, punters are just starting to get their heads around pre 90 so it would be a swan dive into disaster to introduce (or even consider ) any newer cutoff areas for at least five years. Every time I argue against these new classes I get attacked by the usual antagonists for being an old dinosaur clinging to the pre 75 dream and afraid of change, but the truth is that I have no problem whatsoever with new classes being introduced, my problem is with those classes being introduced too soon. Until the existing classes are hosting full fields in all capacities we need to concentrate on and perfect the divisions we have already. The cancellation of the Post Classic Nats early this year is evidence enough that there are enough problems within the Post Classic era to deal with without adding new fuel to the fire.
I bit my tongue earlier, but...
Pre-85 will NEVER meet the impossible expectations you set for it, because it was introduced too late. Pre-90, Pre-78 and Pre-70 are all doomed to the same fate, for exactly the same reasons. The two strongest classes in VMX are Pre-75 and Evo because they were introduced early.
Pre-75 was a mere 13 years old when VMX started - the newest Pre-95 bike is 18 years old already, and we're talking about waiting another five years?!...
Most of us live our (first) dirt-biking hey-day in our late teens and early twenties. Then things like family and career and mortgages typically get in the way in our mid twenties, and we drift away to look after those other things.
The majority of people join the VMX movement when they're in their mid-30s to mid-40s - when the Family/career/mortgage is under control and they have the time and money to race dirt bikes again, but are not able/willing to mix it with the youngsters at the typical modern club day.
There are plenty of welcome exceptions to that, but since the start of VMX its undoubtedly been the 35~45 year old blokes who are the vast majority of the new recruits - and the these blokes will most closely identify with bikes that are 15~20 years old: The bikes these blokes rode in their own personal heyday.
The Retro/Norths (pre-90) club in NSW is a clear example of this - the average age is clearly considerably lower than it is at Heaven...
We can talk of Pre-85's "potential" until the cows come home, but we crippled it from the start - the window of opportunity was mostly closed before we finally got around to saying "you know what? A bike made in 1984 is really quite old now - maybe it could even be a VMX class". We did the same for Pre-90 and we are about to do the same for Pre-95.
The VMX movement is doomed while the "not yet" mentality is allowed to prevail. Everyone has their own pet era, and that's a GOOD thing - I don't expect the 50+ yo blokes to share my enthusiasm for Pre-95 - but I get properly cranky when they try to claim that my enthusiasm for Pre-95 is somehow less valid than their own enthusiasm for Pre-75 was in 1989...
Hence the reason I have cracked the shits, and im going to disappear for a while!
-
Just for some perspective, we aren't the only activity/sport that is suffering from cancellations. Here are some in the music/festival scene of late:
http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/music/festival-bubble-bursts-as-homebake-cancelled-20131023-2w083.html
On a personal note, regardless of the current economic times (or perhaps BECAUSE of the current economic times) I would prefer our VMX sport keep up with the passing of time and introduce new classes as the need or demand arises.
-
Hence the reason I have cracked the shits, and im going to disappear for a while!
Your loss I say. Everybody knows the venting on here impacts little to not at all in the real world.
-
Your loss I say. Everybody knows the venting on here impacts little to not at all in the real world.
I was thinking the same thing. Cracking a shitty over what I or anyone else says on here seems a bit premature. Maybe your heart was never fully into it.
-
If you can agree to the significance of these bikes and this era now, what are your thoughts on them being race classes in the near future???
Pre 85 isn't running anything near half of its potential and as Davey says, punters are just starting to get their heads around pre 90 so it would be a swan dive into disaster to introduce (or even consider ) any newer cutoff areas for at least five years. Every time I argue against these new classes I get attacked by the usual antagonists for being an old dinosaur clinging to the pre 75 dream and afraid of change, but the truth is that I have no problem whatsoever with new classes being introduced, my problem is with those classes being introduced too soon. Until the existing classes are hosting full fields in all capacities we need to concentrate on and perfect the divisions we have already. The cancellation of the Post Classic Nats early this year is evidence enough that there are enough problems within the Post Classic era to deal with without adding new fuel to the fire.
I bit my tongue earlier, but...
Pre-85 will NEVER meet the impossible expectations you set for it, because it was introduced too late. Pre-90, Pre-78 and Pre-70 are all doomed to the same fate, for exactly the same reasons. The two strongest classes in VMX are Pre-75 and Evo because they were introduced early.
Pre-75 was a mere 13 years old when VMX started - the newest Pre-95 bike is 18 years old already, and we're talking about waiting another five years?!...
Most of us live our (first) dirt-biking hey-day in our late teens and early twenties. Then things like family and career and mortgages typically get in the way in our mid twenties, and we drift away to look after those other things.
The majority of people join the VMX movement when they're in their mid-30s to mid-40s - when the Family/career/mortgage is under control and they have the time and money to race dirt bikes again, but are not able/willing to mix it with the youngsters at the typical modern club day.
There are plenty of welcome exceptions to that, but since the start of VMX its undoubtedly been the 35~45 year old blokes who are the vast majority of the new recruits - and the these blokes will most closely identify with bikes that are 15~20 years old: The bikes these blokes rode in their own personal heyday.
The Retro/Norths (pre-90) club in NSW is a clear example of this - the average age is clearly considerably lower than it is at Heaven...
We can talk of Pre-85's "potential" until the cows come home, but we crippled it from the start - the window of opportunity was mostly closed before we finally got around to saying "you know what? A bike made in 1984 is really quite old now - maybe it could even be a VMX class". We did the same for Pre-90 and we are about to do the same for Pre-95.
The VMX movement is doomed while the "not yet" mentality is allowed to prevail. Everyone has their own pet era, and that's a GOOD thing - I don't expect the 50+ yo blokes to share my enthusiasm for Pre-95 - but I get properly cranky when they try to claim that my enthusiasm for Pre-95 is somehow less valid than their own enthusiasm for Pre-75 was in 1989...
Hence the reason I have cracked the shits, and im going to disappear for a while!
Nada, Your last sentence is only contributing to the non introduction of later classes.
Running away until somebody makes it right for you will never work.
There's a lot of talk on here about us old pricks. Well us old pricks have never had anything handed to us. We were brought up in a culture that if you wanted something you got it yourself. Asking for a ice block at the shops got you a backhander. Heaven has more members closer to 60 than they have closer to 30. When, unfortunately, CD fell over the Heaven committee thought lets get a extra ride going for our members and anyone else that wants to come. Blokes like Dennis, Arty, Justin and myself took a couple of days off work to make it happen. This is why Heaven is successful. Less talk, more work.
My point is that if you, Nathan or anybody else want change, make it happen. Don't fu..king well sit on here bleating about it. If Nathan is right and Pre 90,95 and 2000 bikes will be the saviour of VMX then I would assume it would be very fu..king easy to start a club based on that.
Fu..cking off for a while will never work
Don't take this personally bud, I like you...it's just the way it is
-
My point is that if you, Nathan or anybody else want change, make it happen. Don't fu..king well sit on here bleating about it. If Nathan is right and Pre 90,95 and 2000 bikes will be the saviour of VMX then I would assume it would be very fu..king easy to start a club based on that.
Interesting people hear who want newer bikes wont start up a club to cater for them,and its so easy hear with get a bit of land anywhere ,mark it out,get insurance(not expensive) and go for it.
-
My point is that if you, Nathan or anybody else want change, make it happen. Don't fu..king well sit on here bleating about it. If Nathan is right and Pre 90,95 and 2000 bikes will be the saviour of VMX then I would assume it would be very fu..king easy to start a club based on that.
Interesting people hear who want newer bikes wont start up a club to cater for them,and its so easy hear with get a bit of land anywhere ,mark it out,get insurance(not expensive) and go for it.
Ted, I never said thart Pre-95 would be "the savior" - it's just one of many small but important steps that need to be taken if VMX is to prosper/survive. Anyone who thinks that there's a simple, one-step process to make VMX "reach it's potential" is kidding themselves. There's a whole raft of things to be done, and accepting and introducing new classes in a timely manner is just one of them.
Pre-95 is an important symbolic issue, though - that if it can be accepted by the old guard before it is rammed down their throats, then it would be a hugely postitive step forward - that we can all respect each other's pet eras, and are working toward building the sport.
-------
bazza, The legal and financial requirements in Australia (and particularly NSW) make a one-era-only club doomed to failure. The idea of "just starting a new club" for a niche within a niche is not that many steps short of saying "let's fly to the moon"...
-
Nathan understand NSW has problem with speedway act or similar. Get on to your MPs, australia must also have laws saying you can not have a monopoly- MA is a monopoly
I gave your MP for health a phone call over a Auzy mate waiting ages for a operation,with in few weeks the operation happened, here MNZ said we cant go on our own,we called a meeting,when they turned up showed them a legal letter saying you cant have a monopoly,breaching our bill of rights etc and they went away.Moral of story things can happen if you make them. Not allways easy.
-
Get on to your MPs, australia must also have laws saying you can not have a monopoly- MA is a monopoly
It has been suggested previously that the movement go across to CAMS and leave MA?? Why not?? maybe that's the kick in the arse MA need?
-
NDMCC have a EVO, Pre 85 , Pre 90 club in NSW all under the banner of Pre 90.
Is there enough of you guys that want Pre 90/95/2000 going to their meets to warrant hiring a track on your own bat instead of piggybacking. Shaun does an absolutely marvelous job of organizing things but is he getting the overwhelming patronage and help to justify these classes.
You guys know the answer to that one.
-
Nathan understand NSW has problem with speedway act or similar. Get on to your MPs, australia must also have laws saying you can not have a monopoly- MA is a monopoly
I gave your MP for health a phone call over a Auzy mate waiting ages for a operation,with in few weeks the operation happened, here MNZ said we cant go on our own,we called a meeting,when they turned up showed them a legal letter saying you cant have a monopoly,breaching our bill of rights etc and they went away.Moral of story things can happen if you make them. Not allways easy.
The Speedway ACT is a significant PITA, but is not MA's fault.
MA does NOT have a monopoly - it's just that we are collectively a bunch of sheep who love to complain about MA but won't seriously consider the entirely viable and proven alternative. (http://australianautosportalliance.com/)
The bigger issue is that we had laws that encouraged ambulance chaser lawyers, and consequently NOTHING can happen without insurance.
-
NDMCC have a EVO, Pre 85 , Pre 90 club in NSW all under the banner of Pre 90.
Is there enough of you guys that want Pre 90/95/2000 going to their meets to warrant hiring a track on your own bat instead of piggybacking. Shaun does an absolutely marvelous job of organizing things but is he getting the overwhelming patronage and help to justify these classes.
You guys know the answer to that one.
I think Norths is stuck between a rock and a hard place - the short version is that Heaven already 'owns' too much of the VMX pie for a second club to get to the point that it runs its own meetings.
This is not a criticism of Heaven - there's no reason for them to give up a large chunk of their members/competitors to a competing club.
Even at my most enthusiastic, I'd have struggled to justify going to a VMX meet to ride one class. You might do a local club day like that, but most of us find it hard to justify several hours of travel for three or four races.
I went to every single Norths round in 2011 and 2012 (and have only missed two this year - one due to injury, the other because it conflicted with the 24-hour), but I only went to a couple of Heaven events last year - and one of them because it was combined with a Norths round...
-
I understandwhay your sayingTed and 090, and i respect that! I like you too old mate Ted:)
My biggest beef is with my but head mates, who refuse to ride old bikes, its not just the factor of me not getting the classes i want.
I have nobody to accompany me to a meeting, and if im injured, i have nobody to help me get home.
The fact the scene is not moving in my direction, is just the icing on the cake.
i don't understand why there needs to be several series, why i need to be members of several clubs to attend a meeting where we all share the same views and passion.
Anyway, missus said I could by a new husky, and i'm doing that. I will keep in touch and hopefully see all again soon:)
-
Well that's a shame. Because young smart guys like you are just what WE need to keep VMX going from strength to strength. Look me up when you come back.
Cheers buddy
-
Well that's a shame. Because young smart guys like you are just what WE need to keep VMX going from strength to strength. Look me up when you come back.
Cheers buddy
I'll still pop my head into a few meetings when work allows it, I just won't ride, I'll have a few jack cans waiting for ya old mate:) and I'll sit on a corner for the day:)
-
very few, if any, founders of VMX will accept any idea of changing the way things have always been.
I'm a bit paranoid I suppose but I take it that statement is aimed at me :-\.
You are being paranoid Mark. The statement was NOT directed at you. I know yourself and Col do a hell of a lot of work for the sport. However, there are those on the commission that do very little for the sport and appear to not want to listen to any new ways of thinking. It's not "old prick" bashing as someone suggested, more an observation on where some of the decision makers heads are at. As the saying goes, "you can't put a wise head on young shoulders" but including some "young" blood with fresh ideas can't hurt.
And I for one am certainly not suggesting moving cut off dates at this moment in time. I do feel that it should be a plan for the near future though, just to align bike age with target age rider. As we know, it's mostly over 40's riding vmx. Most 40 somethings ride evo and pre85, some pre90. The next generation of 40 somethings will most likely want to ride bikes that remind them of their youth.
There hopefully will always be the oddball 40ish guys and gals that just like building/riding/racing older bikes, like myself and a few others on here that will keep the older classes well and truly alive. It's obvious to me that even with the very short lead in time for this years Nats, the pre78
(as it is now) movement is alive and well going by the numbers Col has given us.
Lets hope that the event gets some decent coverage in our bike mags this year. Even our most popular mag for all things vmx has given very little space to past national titles in comparison to OS events.
On the subject of promotion with shows and the like, I did some work on getting 2 venues in central Victoria (my patch of earth) for display days, one was even in a popular winery where we could put on "display" rides as well, but when I presented the ideas to my former club committee, it got shot down in flames for one reason and another and nothing come of it. Again, I was just "making trouble", whinging and creating more work! The club had a number of MA official types steering it so it was very hard for me to understand their attitude(s).
This is basically where my attitude towards change falling on deaf ears emanates from. I did not intend on offending anyone here with my previous post. Apologies to anyone that did take offence :)
-
You are being paranoid Mark. The statement was NOT directed at you
Thank god for that, The 'good 'ol boys and I been accused of killing off the sport so I'm getting a tad 'over touchy' ;D. You've made some excellent points TBM, I agree that while I feel that it's not time for any new divisions, it is time to map out an implementation plan for whenever the sport is in need of the new inclusion. I have done a hell of a lot to keep the VMX ship afloat over the years but in the last few years I haven't contributed very much at all apart from some minor consultation. I must admit that my interest level was slipping away and I was content to leave the heavy lifting to the enthusiastic younger punters coming up.
Sadly, with a few notable exceptions the new blood that we thought would take the sport to new levels haven't showed their faces. Sure there are some really keen under 40 guys out there but when it comes down to the nitty gritty it's still the old school blokes getting their hands dirty. Colin Metcher is a dynamo, with more energy and boyish enthusiasm than any number of Gen X wannabes. We can all thank him for being the leading 'hands on' progressive doing his best for our sport. The three man commission are all on the other side of 50 and have been around for ever (not sure of Freaky's age but he thinks like an old fella ;D), those at the helm at HEAVEN are nearly all of the older variety....in fact if you look at the doers within any of the VMX clubs in the land you'd be scratching to find anything other than Baby Boomers. This paragraph might come across as an old bloke chest beating exercise but that's not the intention. I think its time for the younger VMX enthusiasts to move into positions of power and gain control over their sports destiny. It's time those who want change in the Post Classic division got off their arses and did something about their divisions future direction. Despite my philosophical differences with Nathan, I readily admire his passion and understand his vision despite what he thinks of me. It's time that he and those who share that vision start doing instead of talking. I greatly in awe of the effort Shaun Galloway put in to get Norths club involved when his pre 90 vision wasn't shared by HEAVENs power brokers. Shaun's a doer and I hope others can take example from him. If younger enthusiasts don't become involved in the future direction of VMX, the doom and gloom Nathan espouses might one day actually eventuate.
I did some work on getting 2 venues in central Victoria (my patch of earth) for display days, one was even in a popular winery where we could put on "display" rides as well, but when I presented the ideas to my former club committee, it got shot down in flames for one reason and another and nothing come of it. Again, I was just "making trouble", whinging and creating more work! The club had a number of MA official types steering it so it was very hard for me to understand their attitude(s).
That's exactly the same attitude I copped from Penrith Club back in 1988. I was disappointed to the point of pissed off so bugger them, I did it myself. I approached my local Westfield Mall manager and got permission to put on a bike display in the central court area. We wrangled 10 or 12 bikes together, printed some flyers (with reference to Penrith Club, despite their opposition to the idea) and the display went off big time and over the next few months were responsible for luring a number of new racers into the sport. The centre management was so pleased with the result he allowed another three shows over the next few months plus another couple at Parramatta. Trying to get clubs involved in new concepts is sometimes like banging your head against a wall.
-
looking forward to the Freakshow in 2014 ;) :P 8)
-
If you were in my position Firko, why would you step up?
What possible reason would I (or any of the other "youngsters" with passion or enthusiasm) possibly have for stepping into that shit fight?
What enthusiasm has EVER been shown for the input from us "youngsters"?
I was young and foolish enough to answer the call in the rally car days - and along with everyone else who stepped up, I got badly burned. I know the warning signs now, and I've seen them at Heaven club meetings, and I see them all the time on this forum - your proud proclaimation the other day that 'all the people with the big ideas had been banished' was a particularly clear one... (I'm sure you don't think of it like that, but that's how I read it).
This is why I spend so much of my time banging on about shit on this forum:
1. While its inevitable that I will get shat upon a whole lot, it is the only way that's proven effective at getting people to think entertain anything other than the status quo. Everyone calls me names and gets the shits, but then over time, the ideas sink in and the opposition softens.
2. Until you have clear, widespread support, you're pissing into the wind - it only takes one or two nay Sayers to bring down an idea, regardless of its merits.
The reality is that the old guard wants new people who think just like them - which ends up being people of around their age...
-
may be should just close the thread it just proves why MA will never be challenged
keep the plebs divided,do nothing for them and they will win
-
Round and round we go, where we stop nobody knows.
Reds original question was what would the next cut off be, but we’ve wandered around through cancelled events and declining entries at club days and apparently MA are to blame, young people are to blame, old people are to blame, people that do little work are to blame, the economy is to blame, lack of bikes are to blame, decent tracks are to blame…
Meanwhile back at the ranch Viper have been running a post 90 2 stroke class all year, (maybe last year too? I forget)
Viper was also one of the first to introduce the Pre 90 class many years back which was happily running along while the class was being poo-pooed on here.
2 things to note…(for people sitting on either side of the fence)
# The introduction of the post 90 2 stroke class did not make the sky fall in.
# The class was also not swamped with entries from younglings.
Back in the 70’s every man and his dog would race MX, you didn’t need to have a 10 year career in mini bikes to be able to show your face in C grade.
The 80’s were similar but the bottom fell out of the dollar in early 85 and within a few short years fuel and bike prices doubled.
The 90’s started off tough, events were down, entrants were down but vintage and thumpercross was up.
Today the guys that raced moderns in the 90’s are at a similar age to guys that started racing Vintage in the 90’s but the ‘pool’ was much shallower in the 90’s therefore there aren’t as many with old memories to draw on now.
If you want to ride your post 90 2 stroke in a vintage environment then I suggest you pull your finger out and start riding with Viper lest the class fall in a heap.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Clarkfield%202013/Clarkefield-2013-741_zpsad9bda1a.jpg) (http://s15.photobucket.com/user/gmcloa/media/Clarkfield%202013/Clarkefield-2013-741_zpsad9bda1a.jpg.html)
-
Nathan, you have no idea of the shit I copped with my "stupid idea". I side tracked the purveyors of doom and did it myself, even down to financing every vintage meeting in the first couple of years out of my own meagre pocket. In the end my so called stupid idea became the flavour of the month/year/decade and I felt content in seeing the neersayers sucking eggs. If you're not prepared to have a go because a few old farts don't happen to share some of your vision, you'll never see anything happen the way you envision it. It'll always be someone else's concept. Every 'visionary' will meet opposition and if they all threw their hands up and quit before they had a go none of their ideas would have come to fruition. To use another dumb cliché, "you've got to be in it to win it".
I think this old and young thing is not only incorrect, it's dangerous. By thinking the older blokes like me don't have the future of the sport as their highest goal is wrong. I think of little else and I believe that your and my take on the sports future aren't light years apart. We both agree that we need to expand or perish but we differ in the time frame in which that needs to be done. I steadfastly believe in the softly, softly approach while you back the more/sooner cause. The correct answer probably lies somewhere in the middle. We don't want to create a baby boomer/classic versus Gen XY/Post Classic chasm. We're all a part of the same sport and I know that many from my era are just as interested in the pre 90 era as there are younger racers beginning to see something attractive in the Classic classes.
If you've copped flack from the rally guys as well on here perhaps you might have to soften your approach. Your 'fight to death' attitude seems to be the main thing that gets under peoples skin, the Sex Max discussion wasn't your greatest moment of fair debate. I get riled and react only when you dismiss legitimate points as "stupid" or "heads in sand" but I'll freely admit that I can be a bit pig headed when defending my ground too. Understanding why people disagree with you and accepting their rights to have an opinion without dismissing their ideas as irrelevant would be a start. If you're having trouble selling your concepts in both VMX and rallies, perhaps a modified approach is the way to go.
-
I'm gonna let Firko have the last word. Thanks for all the input!
I think I know the breaks should probably be in 5 year increments (pre-85, pre-90, pre-95 and pre-2K). Might start something like "Nostalgia Linkage MX". All 2 stroke with the exception of the first YZ400F's. No breakdown between displacement, just Novice, Intermediate and Expert. That's 12 gates maximum and on the road driving home by 4pm.
;D