Where is the next breaking point?

[Nathan S]

No, not at all. Firko has repeatedly said that "Pre-85 is running below its potential".

Pre-85 had the highest entry at both meetings.

If we are going to be wringing our hands about the supposed poor health of the two newest eras, we ought to be suicidal over the pre-78 eras.

Note that I said "if we are going to be wringing our hands..."

TBH, I don't even know what you're objecting to.

[Montynut]

FIIK what TBH is. I have fell for it again your circular arguments.

[Nathan S]

TBH = To Be Honest.

It's simple: Pre-85 is demonstrably the healthiest class in NSW VMX.
If the health or Pre-85 really is a problem, then we have much larger problems.

Surely you can agree with that?

Alternatively, maybe Pre-85 is fine, and using it as an argument against Pre-95 (as it was used againat Pre-90) is null and void?

[Nathan S]

Nathan, the best way is to get out there and support our major events. Can we expect your entry for the Classic Nats in the next week or so?
Also as soon as we have the Sup Regs out for the Post Classic Nats to be held in April 2014 I'll personally post you an entry form.

I'll move heaven and hell to get to the PCMXNs, but the 2013 CMXNs are not gonna happen for me.

I have time, money and work pressures (like almost everyone does) - and as I said before, when the pressure is on, people contract to their comfort zone.

[firko]

Can we please stop trying to claim that the bikes that live in those gaps are all the same as each other? 

I don't recall anybody saying or meaning that, especially me. You're playing the fact twist game again Nathan.

No, not at all. Firko has repeatedly said that "Pre-85 is running below its potential".

And I still do despite Scrivo's statistics.  For the first 10 years of VMX (which was purely pre 75 and earlier), Penrith club (and I'm sure, clubs in Queensland and Victoria as well),  supported full grids in three capacity classes with three age groups plus full grids in pre 70 250 & 500 , four stroke 250 & 500  and healthy to sometimes full grids in pre 65, all in over fifties and all in over sixties at club level. At Nationals level some classes such as the over 30 250 were often over subscribed and those getting their entries in late sometimes missed out on a start. When the VMX in its modern form can match that kind of support we'll be able to say that the sports in good health. Some classes sometimes get zero entries which has to make some kind of statement. What's considered 'healthy' entry levels today just tells me that we've accepted lower standards.

[Nathan S]

Can we please stop trying to claim that the bikes that live in those gaps are all the same as each other? 

I don't recall anybody saying or meaning that, especially me. You're playing the fact twist game again Nathan.

It has been said many times. Bill has said it more than once in this tread.

No, not at all. Firko has repeatedly said that "Pre-85 is running below its potential".

And I still do despite Scrivo's statistics.  For the first 10 years of VMX (which was purely pre 75 and earlier), Penrith club (and I'm sure, clubs in Queensland and Victoria as well),  supported full grids in three capacity classes with three age groups plus full grids in pre 70 250 & 500 , four stroke 250 & 500  and healthy to sometimes full grids in pre 65, all in over fifties and all in over sixties at club level. At Nationals level some classes such as the over 30 250 were often over subscribed and those getting their entries in late sometimes missed out on a start. When the VMX in its modern form can match that kind of support we'll be able to say that the sports in good health. Some classes sometimes get zero entries which has to make some kind of statement. What's considered 'healthy' entry levels today just tells me that we've accepted lower standards.

I agree. But Pre-85 is clearly NSW's strongest class, with Evo close behind.
Every other class is a long way behind.

You can't use the weakness of Pre-85 as an excuse to deny the validity of Pre-95 as a vintage class - not while it is the strongest class in the state.

Newer classes don't cannibalise the older ones - they help strengthen them.

I still can't get my head around how "more participants" is a negative for the sport.

[FourstrokeForever]

Start your own club like Viper in Victoria did Nathan. They get healthy numbers in everything from Evo to moderns. Essentially, there is no good reason why post 1995 bikes can't compete with the moderns at club level. National and state level might be a bit of an ask, but I can almost guarantee a good peddler won't finish last. A mate of mines son took out his old mans 1987 YZ250 in an open MX event against all the modern four strokes and was more than competitve (at the pointy end) until he got caught up in a first turn tangle and bent the shit out of the back of the bike.

The problem with having the older "bugger all suspension" bikes in with the long travel and more power bikes is the state of the track they leave behind them. I was stupid enough to take my 73 Elsinore to one meeting, rode in pre78 and was reasonably competitive but came home with a broken pipe mount, a dented pipe, bent forks and swingarm. The acceleration and braking bumps caused by the long travel bikes are a killer on earlier machines.

If you want the pre95 and 00's to run at a national PCVMX competition then surely you need to start at club level instead of aiming straight for inclusion of these eras to run at PCVMX Titles.

Check out the Viper website to see what classes they run and find out if you can introduce the same format into Heaven"s race program (if that's who you ride with) and find out what happens. You never know, it could be green lights all the way. I think it would be a much more likely positive outcome than trying to get established classic/vintage oriented clubs to change their respective constitutions.

[Nathan S]

Start your own club like Viper in Victoria did Nathan.

No club can live on one era alone. Norths is healthy enough as a Pre-90 focussed club that welcomes Evo and Pre-85 bikes, but it is following the Viper/old Heaven model of tagging along to other clubs' race meets.

I'm sure it would more than survive if Heaven became a pre-78-only club, and stopped offering Pre-85 & Evo classes - but why would Heaven even consider doing that?

We had the perfect storm in the late 80s and early 90s.
Plenty of enthusiam without decades of grudges and bickering and negativity, LOTS of exposure in the hugely dominant dirt bike media (ie: ADB), bikes that were the right age for the target riders (or visa-versa ), a cheap form of racing during a recession, and almost simultaneous beginnings in the two most populous states.
What was possible then, is beyond the powers of mortal beings now.

[firko]

No club can live on one era alone

That's a big statement Nathan. You only have to look westward to the WAVMX club which has stuck to a rigid pre 75 doctrine with outstanding success. You could also add the Classic Scrambles Club of Victoria who maintained their pre 75 membership base for many years but have recently opened entries up to pre '78.

[Nathan S]

No club can live on one era alone

That's a big statement Nathan. You only have to look westward to the WAVMX club which has stuck to a rigid pre 75 doctrine with outstanding success. You could also add the Classic Scrambles Club of Victoria who maintained their pre 75 membership base for many years but have recently opened entries up to pre '78.

Fair point. I was thinking more about the newer eras (even Pre-85 which is the most successful in NSW & I believe Qld), or any new club that tried to survive on pre-75 only.

Also worth noting that the CSC have embraced Pre-78 also, and the Western Australians are debating it.

[pedant mode] No club runs Pre-75 only. Even the examples given also embrace the older eras.[/pedant]

[supersenior 50]

The CSC have embraced Pre 78 to align with the Classic/Post Classic split.Interestingly in the light of your logic, none of their 16 bikes entered for the 2013 Classic is later than Pre75.
Pre 78 is a great class, and has come of age since the split. There were 93 Pre78 bikes at last year's Classics as part of the record entry.They are all great eras and have their enthusiastic followers as demonstrated by the success of the Connondale Classic this year.
Your arguments are not supported by the facts and statistics and I can only assume you continue this excercise to stir up Firko.I think Firko is leading on the facts and you on the fantasy.It is entertaning if not really informative, so keep it rolling.
Pity you won't make it to the Classics this year, but look forward to your entry for the Post Classics on 25-27 next April.
                                                                  :-)

[Nathan S]

The CSC have embraced Pre 78 to align with the Classic/Post Classic split.Interestingly in the light of your logic, none of their 16 bikes entered for the 2013 Classic is later than Pre75.
Pre 78 is a great class, and has come of age since the split. There were 93 Pre78 bikes at last year's Classics as part of the record entry.They are all great eras and have their enthusiastic followers as demonstrated by the success of the Connondale Classic this year.
Your arguments are not supported by the facts and statistics and I can only assume you continue this excercise to stir up Firko.I think Firko is leading on the facts and you on the fantasy.It is entertaning if not really informative, so keep it rolling.
Pity you won't make it to the Classics this year, but look forward to your entry for the Post Classics on 25-27 next April.
                                                                  :-)

Col,
We all see what we want to see - and that aplies equally to you (and Greg and Firko) as it does to me.

Greg's stats clearly showed that Pre-85 is the most popular class of VMX in NSW, but somehow those stats show that Firko's statment about the ill-health of Pre-85 is valid? 
My statement was "No club can live on one era alone " and it is correct. The pre-75 clubs include the older eras, just as the pre-90s clubs do.
VMXWA is the shining light of the pre-75 scene - if they were silly enough to refuse entries from pre-70 bikes, the club would surely contract to the point of being unviable within a few years.
No club can live on one era alone.

Look what happened to the NSW Pre-75 register. A good idea, supported by a lot of good people, but it went nowhere. Why? Because the rewards aren't worth the effort.

I have no interest in denigrating or dismissing any era of bike racing. I personally have minimal interest in Pre-65 or in Pre-00, but I respect and admire the people that have a passion for them.
What do I gain by dismissing them as somehow irrelevant? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
What do I gain by accepting and encouraging their enthusiasm? Another VMXer. Another person to respect and encourage my enthusiasm for Pre-90 and Pre-95. Another competitor to help fill the start gate. Another member to strengthen my club. Another mate to drink beer & talk shit with.

I still can't get my head around how "more participants" is a negative for the sport.

[FourstrokeForever]

Nathan, nobody but you has suggested and club can live on one era alone. We all know that attempting do that would not work. There simply aren't enough of 1 particular era for it to be feasible.

All of this is rambling on to the point of being moot in my opinion.

Have you bothered to check out what Viper in Victoria does with it's program? They seem to have a good formula for allowing the later model bikes to compete.

If it's not good enough for the 1995 or 2000 model bikes to race at club level for you and you insist on them being included at Title events, then put forward a proposal for them to be included with the Evolution/pre85/pre90 movement.

I don't think anybody would suggest that having more people/bikes is a bad thing Nathan. I argued for 2 years with the CSC to allow pre78 into the fold for this exact reason (more bums on seats) and was not so politely told what they (committee) thought of the idea. I was a whinging trouble maker! Now they are doing it. The point I am trying to make is you need to plant the seeds at club level first. In theory, if it works at club level then it should follow on to championships not long after.

The cancellation of the PCVMX this year is evidence that something is missing within that era. Maybe the long travel lot want later bikes included as well? But, no one will ever know if allowing pre95 and pre00 will work if someone doesn't propose it to their club first  so that a proposal can be put forward to members and to the governing bodies.

[Nathan S]

I reckon I'm a hell of a lot closer to agreeing with you than you think. I've not once "insisted on it being at title events". My intent here is to disassemble the various and assorted arguments against Pre-95.

Apparently I mis-interpreted your comment "Start your own club like Viper in Victoria did Nathan"?
There's already two VMX clubs in NSW, that cover all of the established classes. Starting a new club would either be restricted to a single era (and therefore be doomed to failure), or fragment the competitor base.

The failure of the 2013 PCMXNs was a huge disappointment to a lot of people, no question. But when Classic Dirt has also fallen over, then I don't think it is fair to place (the majority of) the blame on the riders of post-77 bikes...

[09.0]

I haven't kept up with all the pages. The perfect scenario would be to have two clubs that cater for the different eras. For eg bmcc as they are up to Evo. Qvmx then have a class cut off that starts at and including Evo. The hardest thing I see is getting through all the classes if all are welcomed. I am all for pre 95. One club does the early stuff and the other does the later.