Where is the next breaking point?

[Tahitian_Red]

Well that's the crux of it isn't it. 
Are the organizations only for the pleasure of the current membership or something that will live on after most of the pioneers who started this great thing we have worldwide hang up their leathers for the last time. 
People racing their old bikes in a safer venue, re-living their youth, sharing history with the younger generation, rekindling old friendships and making new ones for as long as the oil lasts or just a 25+ year flash in the pan?  Only we can decide.

EXACTLY Red, todays 20 year old WILL NOT be passionate about pre 85, pre 75 etc when they are 40, they will be in love with what their favourite was when they were young, just as most of us are.

Evolve or Die.
Kt.

I want to make it clear that I'm not knocking anyone who has worked and toiled to run an organization that caters to a particular era of bikes and racing.  If they just want it to run it's course and end when they are through with racing more power to them, but if you want the organization to continue you have to add new eras.  We have this fight all the time here in the U.S. and I stay neutral when the discussions come up.

Look at this years Vet MXdN at Farleigh Castle, the feature riders have evolved to be the early 90's hot shoes.  Jean Michel Bayles, John Dowd, Doug Dubach, Jeff Stanton.  It will not be long before the late 90's guys start showing up.

[firko]

The VMX movement is doomed while the "not yet" mentality is allowed to prevail. Everyone has their own pet era, and that's a GOOD thing - I don't expect the 50+ yo blokes to share my enthusiasm for Pre-95 - but I get properly cranky when they try to claim that my enthusiasm for Pre-95 is somehow less valid than their own enthusiasm for Pre-75 was in 1989...

Who the fluck said that (last sentence) Nathan? Seeing that you highlighted my post I guess you must be referring to me. How dare you assume that that's the way I think. I encourage new eras, I really do but I honestly believe that moving forward with these crazy notions to up the cutoff to pre 95 and god forbid, pre 2000 at this time or near future what  is extremely detrimental to the overall vintage movement. You can call me all the old fart, head in the sand dinosaurs you like but the absolute fact of life is that the post '78 divisions are not healthy and are not running anywhere near their potential entry capacity. Pre 90 (A division I agree with and encourage btw) is still moving ahead in baby steps, finding its place in the sport and now less that two years after its introduction you're standing on the milk crate preaching the same convoluted dogma you were preaching for pre 90 not all that long ago. I could go on with long drawn out reasons to justify my belief but I think I've made my points reasonably clear.

*15 minutes later, after a nice hot shower......Once again, I've just wasted half an hour of my ever shortening life arguing the point with someone who's life mission is arguing the point. I'm going to Starbucks for a double shot Cappuccino and some raisin toast, it's too nice a day for banging my head against brick walls.
                                                                                                                         

[Nathan S]

This is far too important to be a forum chest-beating exercise:
How is a newer class "extremely detrimental to the overall vintage movement"?

[Maicojames]

I expect some of the pre 90 gates thin, if you expect gen xers like me to fill them, not enough of us to do it. The local club has decade and 20 yr classes that do well. Expense is a great consideration,  newer two stroke is cheap to operate. I know we etter get younger dudes now rather than later.

[firko]

This is far too important to be a forum chest-beating exercise:

Well stop chest beating then.

How is a newer class "extremely detrimental to the overall vintage movement"?

And top twisting my words too . What I said/meant is that the introduction of a new class too soon would be detrimental to the sport.  The existing classes have to be given time to reach their potential otherwise we'll end up with two or three under subscribed divisions competing for a very limited potential racer market. The pre 95 or pre 2000 classes are great initiatives when their time comes, in perhaps 2 years time for pre 95 and 5 years for pre 2000.  Sadly, as soon as these new divisions are implemented, the usual suspects will be calling for a pre 2002 class and this same bullshit will start all over again.

[Iain Cameron]

My God are you telling me they made motocrossers after 1977 , well I'll be stuffed no one told me .   

[FourstrokeForever]

My God are you telling me they made motocrossers after 1977 , well I'll be stuffed no one told me .   

Yes they did make motocrossers after 1977, all the way up until 1980 

[Nathan S]

This is far too important to be a forum chest-beating exercise:

Well stop chest beating then.

How is a newer class "extremely detrimental to the overall vintage movement"?

And top twisting my words too . What I said/meant is that the introduction of a new class too soon would be detrimental to the sport.  The existing classes have to be given time to reach their potential otherwise we'll end up with two or three under subscribed divisions competing for a very limited potential racer market. The pre 95 or pre 2000 classes are great initiatives when their time comes, in perhaps 2 years time for pre 95 and 5 years for pre 2000.  Sadly, as soon as these new divisions are implemented, the usual suspects will be calling for a pre 2002 class and this same bullshit will start all over again.

I'm not chest beating. You've seen me in full flight - and you know this is well short of it.

I'll repeat my main point:
The vast majority of VMX recruits are 35~45 year olds who want to re-live their dirt-biking glory days of their early adulthood. This has held true for the entire history of VMX.
If we are not attracting those people, then we are doomed.

We've been on this "not yet" merry-go-round for at least a decade, and it hasn't helped - I've lost track of the number of times I've heard "Pre-85 hasn't lived up to its potential yet", but I haven't heard a SINGLE suggestion for building the class, beyond the usual 'how do we improve the sport' stuff, which would equally apply to Pre-95...

 
 

[TM BILL]

This is far too important to be a forum chest-beating exercise:

Well stop chest beating then.

How is a newer class "extremely detrimental to the overall vintage movement"?

And top twisting my words too . What I said/meant is that the introduction of a new class too soon would be detrimental to the sport.  The existing classes have to be given time to reach their potential otherwise we'll end up with two or three under subscribed divisions competing for a very limited potential racer market. The pre 95 or pre 2000 classes are great initiatives when their time comes, in perhaps 2 years time for pre 95 and 5 years for pre 2000.  Sadly, as soon as these new divisions are implemented, the usual suspects will be calling for a pre 2002 class and this same bullshit will start all over again.

I'm not chest beating. You've seen me in full flight - and you know this is well short of it.

I'll repeat my main point:
The vast majority of VMX recruits are 35~45 year olds who want to re-live their dirt-biking glory days of their early adulthood. This has held true for the entire history of VMX.
If we are not attracting those people, then we are doomed.

We've been on this "not yet" merry-go-round for at least a decade, and it hasn't helped - I've lost track of the number of times I've heard "Pre-85 hasn't lived up to its potential yet", but I haven't heard a SINGLE suggestion for building the class, beyond the usual 'how do we improve the sport' stuff, which would equally apply to Pre-95...

You make sense with the 35/45 yr olds Nath and so does Firkos point that neither pre 85 or Pre 90 have reached their potential. If you must push it out to pre 95 why not just extend the pre 90 cut off to whatever is this weeks flavor,rather than add another bloody empty class to the programme , add to the least popular one you already have Pre 90 . As far as im concerned the bike changes 1990 on were so minimal and beige that there is no reason not to . The older classes like it or not from the late 50s to the late 80s capture a time when MX development was moving at a very rapid rate . Within that 30 yr period there were times when radical changes were made at GP level week to week and that is what IMHO makes it so special.

Once you get past the late 80s quite frankly and this is only my opinion it all becomes Soooooooooooooooooooooooo boring    .

I was as excited as the next Mug who bought one when the ally framed CRs came out and again when the YZF 400 was released but with hindsight both and particularly the 4 stroke spelled the death knock for a sport i have loved since i was a kid .

I understand completely your 35 to 45 yr olds wanting to ride what they rode. But again only my opinion but those people have a view and an attitude to the sport that reflects those bikes they want to ride, and that is a polar opposite to those of us who were lucky enough to live and race in a time when MX development meant more than new stickers and an anodized gas cap     

[Nathan S]

What were the major technological developments between 1960 and 1974?

[Davey Crocket]

 The tide changed from heavyweight pre war 4 strokes to lightweight 2 strokes. Then the Japanese arrived Nathan.....made bikes affordable, reliable and you could get one at any corner store.....and then they started long travel with the monoshock in 1973. Then they made minibikes for scrotes to ride.....I don't agree with your assumption the pre85 and pre90 haven't forfilled peoples dreams....maybe in second class society's

[Nathan S]

Pre-90 is as important to some as Pre-75 is to Firko.
Pre-95 is that important to me. It is MY era. Pre-00 is inevitable - it holds much less interest to me, but I will not denigrate it, or otherwise devalue its importance to others.

Everyone has their pet era. When we can respect others' passion, we can grow.

[VMX247]

Everyone has their pet era. When we can respect others' passion, we can grow.

True, though its a very small minority that don't respect others era's.
So we win, minority rules in favour of all vmx era's 
cheers A

[firko]

Everyone has their pet era. When we can respect others' passion, we can grow.

absolutely, I couldn't agree more. At the risk of repeating myself, my only worry is that by introducing any new divisions we will have too many undersubscribed divisions.  Eventually divisions will have to drop out or combine with each other.....for example, combining pre 85 with pre 90 to make room. Just because these five yearly cutoffs have fitted the mould in the past doesn't mean we have to stick with such a rigid formula in the future. Perhaps technologically based divisions will be a way of achieving division parity in the future. Whatever happens, eventually something's going to have to give or another split be made to cater for the next generation of bike technology.

Pre-90 is as important to some as Pre-75 is to Firko.

But I've changed. While I didn't seriously start racing until 1970 which nurtured my passion for the pre 75 era, over the years I've become more and more interested in the even earlier divisions of pre 70, pre 65 and over the last couple of years, pre 60. I was 8 years old in 1959 but I have grown to love and respect those old mild steel and cast iron heavyweights from that era to the point of assembling enough parts to eventually start building a 1959ish era TriBSA. I think that if we took a little sideways interest in bikes from outside of our generation many of us would find that not only are those bikes interesting in their own way, they're fun to build and race.  The current upsurge in interest in pre 70 and pre 65 is an example of racers crossing over the invisible barrier into classes that they'd previously had no serious interest. The current "DT1 Craze" has woken up a surprising number of punters into joining the pre 70 class. In reverse, a staunch pre 75 mate of mine is currently planning a pre 90 class ATK and myself and my mate Jonesy are co-building a very, very trick pre 78/Evo 125 Yamaha. I emphatically believe that if we step outside of our technological comfort zone and take an interest in bikes we'd previously only taken a sideways glance towards, our VMX experience is broadened and the sport will become a more close knit and happy place. 

[TM BILL]

Pre-90 is as important to some as Pre-75 is to Firko.
Pre-95 is that important to me. It is MY era. Pre-00 is inevitable - it holds much less interest to me, but I will not denigrate it, or otherwise devalue its importance to others.

Everyone has their pet era. When we can respect others' passion, we can grow.

Nath its not that i dont respect others passions , if their into bikes thats got to be a good thing 

I have seen you race eras from pre 70 to pre 90 and you seem to enjoy them all .

When i say that the technological advances were slow in the later eras im not digging them out im just stating fact . I still maintain that adding later classes too soon is foolish when the already established late classes pre 85 and pre 90 have small numbers and cant get enough to run a titles .

Joan has cleared up the 1960 to 1974 advances i think , Frank Mellings MX the big leap is a good read covering this topic .