Author Topic: Where is the next breaking point?  (Read 46723 times)

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Offline Big Bird

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2013, 07:00:15 am »
I vowed and declared I wouldn't get involved in these discussions.  Hypocrite I am now becoming...

Some general observations:
 - My favourite bike in my shed is a 1967 Sprite.  I was born in 1967.  I love it not for nostalgic reasons nor for sentimental reasons - I can't remember 1967.  I love it for its simplicity, style, pure function. 
 - Many of my inner city hipster mates are getting into bikes, and are going for the 60s and 70s stuff - stuff that was around long before they were born.  They reckon my old Sprite is the essence of cool.  Some of them are getting into racing, most of them will never race - but they are all keen to spectate.
 - I have my own sentimental eras, being the 78-81 era (when I was getting into bikes as a kid) and the 86-89 era (when I was getting into racing motocross).  My era of nostalgia will be different to the next guy / girl
 - In roadracing, they have a class for bikes that have turned 10 years old.  It gives a cheap entry point for bikes that might have gone out of fashion a bit
 - Surely the VMX scene is about getting bikes out of sheds, and giving those with a working bike the opportunity to go out and have a bit of fun on it, against bikes that are of a reasonably similar age and/or performance level.  Whether that bike is a 67 / 77 / 87 / 97 model shouldn't matter.  If someone still has a bike that he bought ten years ago, then he is no less a candidate to get involved - and I believe we are doing ourselves a disservice if we dictate that he and his bike need to "mature" for a few years before we will let him in with us.

Please note I am not saying that every meeting must have every year covered.  I just think we will maintain a healthier "sport" if we keep it inclusive and everyone gets an opportunity at some time in the year.

Cheers all

Geoff

Offline Ktm181

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2013, 07:30:13 am »



i believe the saying is , "populate or perish.........

We need "friendlier tracks" AND a bigger pool to draw from.  There is lots of guys who would ride an mx track if they felt they wouldnt look out of their depth, tracks in general are a bit over the top IMO, make them a bit easier, i.e. smaller fewer jumps, NO big tables, no doubles, smaller woops etc, it would not be so big a stretch to get them to have a go in general and the older blokes would have more choices of where to ride (this is mainly Sydney i am speaking of re the ttracks).

When all is said and done we are a hobby only, if we keep doing the same things do we really expect things to change? MX in general is quiet around Sydney, its going to stay that way, around the fringes is different, some tracks, and in some areas a lot of riders, but the tracks are NOT very "old bloke" friendly so not a lot of old blokes wanting to go there and look like a squid. 

There's lots of opinions, or variations of opinions, on all of this but the general rule we need to follow is the first line, its just amatter of how we do that, if we want to grow that is, i'd start with a more VMX friendly track layout.

Kt.

Offline Nathan S

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2013, 08:48:16 am »
Quote
Everyone has their pet era. When we can respect others' passion, we can grow.
absolutely, I couldn't agree more. At the risk of repeating myself, my only worry is that by introducing any new divisions we will have too many undersubscribed divisions.  Eventually divisions will have to drop out or combine with each other.....for example, combining pre 85 with pre 90 to make room. Just because these five yearly cutoffs have fitted the mould in the past doesn't mean we have to stick with such a rigid formula in the future. Perhaps technologically based divisions will be a way of achieving division parity in the future. Whatever happens, eventually something's going to have to give or another split be made to cater for the next generation of bike technology.
Quote
Pre-90 is as important to some as Pre-75 is to Firko.
But I've changed. While I didn't seriously start racing until 1970 which nurtured my passion for the pre 75 era, over the years I've become more and more interested in the even earlier divisions of pre 70, pre 65 and over the last couple of years, pre 60. I was 8 years old in 1959 but I have grown to love and respect those old mild steel and cast iron heavyweights from that era to the point of assembling enough parts to eventually start building a 1959ish era TriBSA. I think that if we took a little sideways interest in bikes from outside of our generation many of us would find that not only are those bikes interesting in their own way, they're fun to build and race.  The current upsurge in interest in pre 70 and pre 65 is an example of racers crossing over the invisible barrier into classes that they'd previously had no serious interest. The current "DT1 Craze" has woken up a surprising number of punters into joining the pre 70 class. In reverse, a staunch pre 75 mate of mine is currently planning a pre 90 class ATK and myself and my mate Jonesy are co-building a very, very trick pre 78/Evo 125 Yamaha. I emphatically believe that if we step outside of our technological comfort zone and take an interest in bikes we'd previously only taken a sideways glance towards, our VMX experience is broadened and the sport will become a more close knit and happy place.

Now there's some common ground.  :)

My point is that you don't get people involved by demanding they step outside of their comfort zone.

I've lost track of the number of times 'newbies' have turned up at race meetings with a bike from "their era" and openly expressed minimal interest in the older bikes - but within a few meetings, they've seen the other era bikes in action and said "that looks like fun"... and then they hunt down a bike from an era that they'd normally never have developed an interest in.

One of my mates semi-reluctantly got dragged along to the first Pre-90 race meet in NSW. It was mostly the promise of racing my KX500 that got him there. Then I managed to talk him into coming to Canowindra on the promise of the social aspect and the unique format.
He now owns a Pre-75 bike, a Pre-78 bike, two Evo bikes, two Pre-85 bikes and two Pre-90 bikes... There is absolutely no way on earth that I'd have been able to talk him into buying an Evo bike straight up, and even less chance of getting him to race a Pre-78 or Pre-75 bike.

Edit: When time and/or money is tight, most people will contract back into their comfort zone. 


Pre-90 is as important to some as Pre-75 is to Firko.
Pre-95 is that important to me. It is MY era. Pre-00 is inevitable - it holds much less interest to me, but I will not denigrate it, or otherwise devalue its importance to others.

Everyone has their pet era. When we can respect others' passion, we can grow.

Nath its not that i dont respect others passions , if their into bikes thats got to be a good thing  :)

I have seen you race eras from pre 70 to pre 90 and you seem to enjoy them all .

When i say that the technological advances were slow in the later eras im not digging them out im just stating fact . I still maintain that adding later classes too soon is foolish when the already established late classes pre 85 and pre 90 have small numbers and cant get enough to run a titles .

Joan has cleared up the 1960 to 1974 advances i think , Frank Mellings MX the big leap is a good read covering this topic .

A 1964 CZ250 is an air-cooled, two-stroke, single cylinder 250 with drum brakes, twin shocks and roughly 7/4" of suspension travel.
Just like a 1974 Ossa Phantom or Montesa Cappra.

A 1989 CR250 is a water-cooled,  power-valved, two stroke, single cylinder 250 with disc brakes, linkage monoshock, and roughly 12" of suspension travel F&R.
Just like a 2013 KTM250SX.

There is a lot more to both technology and performance than a list of specifications or superficial appearance, regardless of the era.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 08:55:14 am by Nathan S »
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Offline Nathan S

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2013, 08:51:03 am »
I can't speak for other states, but from what I've seen in NSW:
There's more Pre-85 and Pre-90 bikes being regularly raced in VMX than in Pre-75, Pre-70 and Pre-78.

If we are going to be wringing our hands about the supposed poor health of the two newest eras, we ought to be suicidal over the pre-78 eras.
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline supersenior 50

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2013, 09:06:54 am »
Nathan, the best way is to get out there and support our major events. Can we expect your entry for the Classic Nats in the next week or so?
Also as soon as we have the Sup Regs out for the Post Classic Nats to be held in April 2014 I'll personally post you an entry form.

Offline firko

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2013, 11:00:45 am »
Quote
What were the major technological developments between 1960 and 1974? 
I could fill a page with each eras contributions but here's my very condensed take on the progression...
Pre'60: This is the division where the height of technology was the TriBSA...fitting a Triumph twin  engine into a better handling and lighter BSA frame. There were very few purpose built scramble (motocross) bikes and they were nearly all based on the equivalent road bike.
Pre '65: This era saw the introduction of the first attempts at sophisticated purpose built bikes and the introduction of the aftermarket lightweight frame conversions from Rickman, Cheney and other less famous builders. For the first time weight and suspension travel and quality took precedence over horsepower and became the more  important aspects of a motocross bikes construction.
Pre 70: The two stroke comes into its own and bikes are almost halved in weight. We experienced the first Japanese involvement the Yamaha DT1, Suzuki Savage and RH67 and Kawasaki F21M and the 250 class was taken much more seriously because  the reliability of the new lightweights from Europe and the UK.
Pre 75: Motocross became a boom sport with the bikes featuring vastly improved engineering sophistication , longer travel suspension and the release of the first truly competitive Japanese bikes. The long travel suspension evolution started in 1973 with the YZ Yamaha and MC Maico with the rest soon following. 
'68 Yamaha DT1 enduro, '69 Yamaha 'DT1 from Hell' '69 DT1'Dunger from Hell, '69 Cheney Yamaha 360, 70 Maico 350 (2 off), '68 Hindall Ducati 250, Hindall RT2MX, Hindall YZ250a , Cycle Factory RT2MX flat tracker, Yamaha 1T250J, Maico 250 trials, '71, Boyd and Stellings TM400, Shell OW72,750 Yamaha

Montynut

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2013, 11:03:25 am »
I can't speak for other states, but from what I've seen in NSW:
There's more Pre-85 and Pre-90 bikes being regularly raced in VMX than in Pre-75, Pre-70 and Pre-78.

If we are going to be wringing our hands about the supposed poor health of the two newest eras, we ought to be suicidal over the pre-78 eras.
Nathan just to clear up the health of eras in NSW. The numbers below indicate that most of the ERAs are fairly healthy.

Heaven / Northern Districts - EVO Challenge Inter-Club meeting @ Glenbawn Dam a mild modern track
March 2013
No Pre65 class
5 Pre70 bikes
17 Pre75 bikes
24 Pre78 bikes
39 EVO bikes
47 Pre85 bikes
16 Pre90 bikes

Heaven - Crawford River Classic - grass track meeting - natural terrain
September 2013
8 Pre65 bikes
10 Pre70 bikes
30 Pre75 bikes
29 Pre78 bikes
36 EVO bikes
36 Pre85 bikes
No Pre90 class

The big question really is why these entry numbers for EVO, Pre85, Pre90 did not enter events like the Post Classic Titles.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 11:09:20 am by Montynut »

Offline Nathan S

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2013, 01:24:41 pm »
Quote
What were the major technological developments between 1960 and 1974? 
I could fill a page with each eras contributions but here's my very condensed take on the progression...
Pre'60: This is the division where the height of technology was the TriBSA...fitting a Triumph twin  engine into a better handling and lighter BSA frame. There were very few purpose built scramble (motocross) bikes and they were nearly all based on the equivalent road bike.
Pre '65: This era saw the introduction of the first attempts at sophisticated purpose built bikes and the introduction of the aftermarket lightweight frame conversions from Rickman, Cheney and other less famous builders. For the first time weight and suspension travel and quality took precedence over horsepower and became the more  important aspects of a motocross bikes construction.
Pre 70: The two stroke comes into its own and bikes are almost halved in weight. We experienced the first Japanese involvement the Yamaha DT1, Suzuki Savage and RH67 and Kawasaki F21M and the 250 class was taken much more seriously because  the reliability of the new lightweights from Europe and the UK.
Pre 75: Motocross became a boom sport with the bikes featuring vastly improved engineering sophistication , longer travel suspension and the release of the first truly competitive Japanese bikes. The long travel suspension evolution started in 1973 with the YZ Yamaha and MC Maico with the rest soon following.

The list is valid- but apart from the 4T-to-2T change, it shares the same lack of "kapow" tick-a-box of Long Travel/Water-Cooling/Discs/etc as the 90s.
There's no way a twin pipe CZ can hold a candle to a good 1974 model - in the same way a 1986 KX125 is hopelessly outclassed by a 1999 KTM125SX, or a 94 CR250 is by an 07 KXF450.

This idea that bikes have barely changed since 1987ish is as incorrect as the idea that bikes barely changed between 1960 and 1974.
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline Tim754

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #53 on: September 30, 2013, 01:49:10 pm »
Eras ? If you are able, build and ride what you favour as often or when you can. :)

Because the day will come when your bikes sit in the shed calling, but your body has f**ked up. >:(

That's the real breaking point.
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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #54 on: September 30, 2013, 01:52:07 pm »
1960s Maico
http://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/maico/Maico_1961_250cc_ISDT.htm

1970 maico

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=1974+maico+400&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=vfVIUveIFcSmkwX8sIDADQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=971&dpr=1#q=1970+maico&tbm=isch&facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=0YQiFOheoxi51M%3A%3B04NlxP0h15qd_M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcybermotorcycle.com%252Fgallery%252Fmaico%252Fimages%252FMaico_MC400_1970.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcybermotorcycle.com%252Fgallery%252Fmaico%252FMaico_MC400_1970.htm%3B606%3B416


1974 maico

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=1974+maico+400&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=vfVIUveIFcSmkwX8sIDADQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=971&dpr=1#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=xA3_p5U3zCxjsM%3A%3Bzgz2CVt357eFxM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.maicomotorcycles.com%252Fimages%252F1974-5speed-1.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.maicomotorcycles.com%252Frestorations.html%3B400%3B300

1979 Maico
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=1979+maico&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&biw=1920&bih=971&dpr=1&bvm=pv.xjs.s.en_US.6PYzwk9faGo.O&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=d_dIUsyLGY6dlQX0ooCYCg#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=xYNc6c7ydRMjiM%3A%3BIKQU6KzE_5FmGM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.off-road.com%252Faimages%252Farticlestandard%252Fdirtbike%252F202009%252F597724%252FMAICO_1.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.off-road.com%252Fdirtbike%252Fvintage-maico-special-16636.html%3B480%3B312

1984 Maico

http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?imgurl=http://www.maico.mxbikes.com/84-maico250-01.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.maico.mxbikes.com/1984.htm&h=390&w=612&sz=51&tbnid=8es6wIZJwVaNNM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=141&zoom=1&usg=__R3w95d7_ZytHo_y8bpdniNE6MZw=&docid=xEKoluPsTaPDmM&sa=X&ei=wvdIUsy-IIvtlAWtoYCIBA&ved=0CD4Q9QEwAw


1984 CR500

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=1979+maico&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&biw=1920&bih=971&dpr=1&bvm=pv.xjs.s.en_US.6PYzwk9faGo.O&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=d_dIUsyLGY6dlQX0ooCYCg#hl=en&q=1984+cr500&tbm=isch&um=1&facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=411ToSwIytVXIM%3A%3Bg_mfyq1yBMW0hM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.motorera.com%252Fhonda%252Fh0500%252Felsinore%252Fcr500r-84.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.motorera.com%252Fhonda%252Fh0500%252Felsinore.htm%3B325%3B190

1989 CR500

https://www.google.co.nz/search?gs_rn=27&gs_ri=psy-ab&tok=4naVssyjDArsnHqkGVhKig&pq=1974+maico+400&cp=8&gs_id=z&xhr=t&q=1989+cr500&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&biw=1920&bih=971&dpr=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=_vVIUtUvg4uQBbKPgEg#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=BfIBVwt8V3tZoM%3A%3BHjzkvwIGjEN1xM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.mxworksbike.com%252F1989CR500_3_800.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.mxworksbike.com%252FMcWaters%2525201989CR500.htm%3B800%3B451

1994 Cr 500

http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?imgurl=http://www.motodacross.com/honda/cr500/1994.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.motodacross.com/honda/cr500.htm?a&h=409&w=700&sz=70&tbnid=894tq7oTYs8HqM:&tbnh=64&tbnw=110&zoom=1&usg=__lWuBtcOI0hOg-wPiKVZtMLb2kUA=&docid=9sBjE8oqxjOYyM&sa=X&ei=SvZIUuytL4bFkAW13IGYDg&ved=0CEYQ9QEwBg

1999 CR500

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=1999+CR500&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&biw=1920&bih=971&dpr=1&bvm=pv.xjs.s.en_US.6PYzwk9faGo.O&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=KfdIUvS_NcWnkgWMzIH4CQ#facrc=_&imgrc=78-7lGiVynX3uM%3A%3B6Rs5dsGoLwg_zM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.sportbikez.net%252Fbikepics%252F106%252Fmedium%252F1064081642.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.sportbikez.net%252Fpicture%252F1151%252F1999_honda_cr500%3B600%3B400

2004 CR500

http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Honda/Best/CR500_1280.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Honda/Best/&h=1024&w=1280&sz=132&tbnid=ntwKPqhqHzkisM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=123&zoom=1&usg=__GoObRToYTSHLtXK2mfTS3SdbF4s=&docid=51cTS8qF4f7eZM&sa=X&ei=CPhIUrihO4GNkAXOy4GgBw&ved=0CDAQ9QEwAQ
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 02:07:22 pm by TM bill »

Offline supersenior 50

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2013, 02:25:19 pm »
Thats why we run them in classes (eras) it's a no brainer.
So Nathan, are you entering Classic, Post Classic or both?

Offline firko

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2013, 04:09:54 pm »
Quote
The list is valid- but apart from the 4T-to-2T change, it shares the same lack of "kapow" tick-a-box of Long Travel/Water-Cooling/Discs/etc as the 90s.
Looking at technological transitions from 1959-1974  from a 2013 perspective with 35 year old eyes might suggest the lack of  the"kapow" you speak of Nathan but those technological jumps were equally as ground breaking at the time. The introduction of the monoshock Yamaha and Maicos LTR suspension system had a similar impact on motocross as the introduction of water cooling or alloy frames had on later eras. The evolvement of the two stroke as a force in motocross in 1966 had an almost identical "kapow" effect that the modern 4 strike had in 1999, while reed valve inductions contribution had a similar impact to electronic fuel injection.  I can recall thinking how radical a jump in technology my 76 Husky 360 Auto was over the RT1 Yamaha and Sherpa S Bultaco I'd been riding just four years earlier. You see the disc brake/water cooling/cartridge fork technology leaps as being radical departures but, as I said earlier, their impact was no more awe inspiring than those earlier technologies.
 
Quote
This idea that bikes have barely changed since 1987ish is as incorrect as the idea that bikes barely changed between 1960 and 1974
With the obvious exception of the modern four stroke's introduction the major improvements between the post EVO eras has essentially concentrated on fine tuning and sophisticating the engine and chassis/suspension technologies developed in the latter part of the eighties. There have been no real suspension travel increases, brake technology leaps and bounds or major frame geometry changes since 1988. What has happened is that those technologies have been gradually fine tuned in model by model baby steps with the end result being todays frame, suspension, engine and componentry looking pretty much the same for that last 20 years but performing astoundingly better. The two stroke motocross engine has barely changed in twenty years but gradual improvements in engine management with digital ignition , variable porting, more efficient carburetion and so on have made the pre 1995/2000 2T easier to ride and maintain while looking little different to it's two decade earlier counterparts.

In a nutshell, in the pre modern 4T era I reckon that the degrees of technological advancement between the early and later eras is pretty much on par. It's a "where your heart is" kind of thing that decides how rose coloured our glasses are.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 04:12:02 pm by firko »
'68 Yamaha DT1 enduro, '69 Yamaha 'DT1 from Hell' '69 DT1'Dunger from Hell, '69 Cheney Yamaha 360, 70 Maico 350 (2 off), '68 Hindall Ducati 250, Hindall RT2MX, Hindall YZ250a , Cycle Factory RT2MX flat tracker, Yamaha 1T250J, Maico 250 trials, '71, Boyd and Stellings TM400, Shell OW72,750 Yamaha

Offline Nathan S

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2013, 07:39:31 pm »
In a nutshell, in the pre modern 4T era I reckon that the degrees of technological advancement between the early and later eras is pretty much on par.

Which is exactly the point I was trying to make.
4T to 2T in the 60s,
Long travel in the 70s,
Disc brakes/water-cooling/linkage rear in the 80s,
2T to 4T in the 90s.

They're the big ones that changed the face of MX.

Can we please stop trying to claim that the bikes that live in those gaps are all the same as each other?





The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline Nathan S

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2013, 07:43:56 pm »

Nathan just to clear up the health of eras in NSW. The numbers below indicate that most of the ERAs are fairly healthy.

Heaven / Northern Districts - EVO Challenge Inter-Club meeting @ Glenbawn Dam a mild modern track
March 2013
No Pre65 class
5 Pre70 bikes
17 Pre75 bikes
24 Pre78 bikes
39 EVO bikes
47 Pre85 bikes
16 Pre90 bikes

Heaven - Crawford River Classic - grass track meeting - natural terrain
September 2013
8 Pre65 bikes
10 Pre70 bikes
30 Pre75 bikes
29 Pre78 bikes
36 EVO bikes
36 Pre85 bikes
No Pre90 class

The big question really is why these entry numbers for EVO, Pre85, Pre90 did not enter events like the Post Classic Titles.

Thanks Greg.
Proves my point about how (in NSW at least), the doom and gloom about Pre-85 is unfounded.

And for the non-Heaven regulars, its worth pointing out that the CRC meeting is specifically focussed on the pre-78 eras, and included free entry for Pre-65 bikes (which, happily, seems to have attracted more punters).

The failure of the Post Classic Titles is a question worthy of its own thread.
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Montynut

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2013, 08:01:44 pm »
I can't speak for other states, but from what I've seen in NSW:
There's more Pre-85 and Pre-90 bikes being regularly raced in VMX than in Pre-75, Pre-70 and Pre-78.

If we are going to be wringing our hands about the supposed poor health of the two newest eras, we ought to be suicidal over the pre-78 eras.

You point seemed to be we should be suicidal about the state of Pre78.

Also for non Heaven members the EVO challenge is specifically aimed at the EVO Pre85 eras that is why I quoted those two meetings ::)

Should have known you could twist any numbers to support your auguement. Just to balance the 'free' Pre65 entry unsetting the numbers 4 of the Pre65 entries also had Pre85 or EVO bikes (the free entry carried across remember) and another two had Pre75 or Pre78 bikes (again the free entry carried across).

I should have known better than to post anything. It is always twisted to support your point. There I was thinking the numbers refutted your point, silly me.

Once again my last post on this thread.

The 2013 Post Classic titles failed to go ahead for one reason and one reason only. People didn't enter in nearly sufficiant number for it to be successful. END of story

What I don't understand Nathan is why everyone has to agree with Pre90, Pre95 etc etc etc. The people that want those classes just need to do exactly the same thing that started Pre75 etc. Just build it and they will come. Why do you expect groups that have a passion for their section or ERA of the sport to change or alter what they do. I have no problem with Pre90 or later ERAs. Later periods are going to happen but if you expect one body or group to host an ever increasing number of periods then that in itself with kill the earlier eras. Just by the simple fact of adding races or activities. A Pre90 group should welcome Pre95 or Pre00 or whatever is found to be the ideal. It is much much more difficult to include Pre00 into a group that focusses on Pre85 or earlier. That is not to say that Pre00 is wrong, less valuable or less important it is just simple maths. You can stamp your feet, jump up and down or hold your breath but that is the simple facts. The ideal situation is that a couple of successful and strong groups work together to offer the full cross section of periods demanded by riders.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 08:23:47 pm by Montynut »