Where is the next breaking point?

[suzuki59]

craig 4l for $6  or 3.60 2L at our dairy - you obviously leave shopping to the lovely wife
I was in sydney  weekend C/d was supposed to be $1.65l petrol

Thanks Mike,I knew I should have been wary trusting the black Pom-everyone knows he only tracks the price of beer and NOS A5 kawasaki cylinders 
PS correct the better half is in charge of grocery procurement...
Anyway back to the thread.......

[Rossvickicampbell]

from the latest photos thought you might of been buying the food Craig 

Sorry - could not help myself.

Back to the thread.

[firko]

I was in sydney  weekend C/d was supposed to be $1.65l petrol

That was a high point in the cycle Mikey, it's at a low right now at $1.42 down the road from here.

[Slakewell]

Qld has 4 good Vintage tracks within driving distance of the CBD of Brisbane. IMO this is the real reason why the numbers are so different. Buladelah is the only purpose VMX track in NSW and it's a good 3 hours for most Sydney siders. I cant explain why the Victorian numbers are down from previous years thou.

[Nathan S]

....
but are you interested enough to step up and act upon your ideas that your sharing here?
....

Yes, absolutely - but not unconditionally...

When new ideas are floated on this forum, there's a large number of people who will automatically shit on them without even thinking about what has been suggested (and not just my ideas).
Not "tell me more" or "Show us what you've got and we'll think about it", but an automatic "no, everything is fine, no need for change, stop talking about it" response that stifles any debate and any progress. Look at how many pages of the SexMax thread it took before someone finally said "show us what you think the rules should look like and we can go from there"... and how many pages of "Nope" it took to get to that point... Same with the last few days' discussions - we go around and around and around until finally there's the hook (Ted's & JohnnyO's posts in this case) that breaks people out of the Nope routine and starts opening up the discussion.

The world bows to the people who say No, not to those who say Yes - until there's a concencus that an idea is worth pursuing (not that it has to be adopted), then I won't put in the time or effort to progressing it.
I've already wasted far too much of my life on stuff that has been shat upon by those who have a knee-jerk response to the idea of change. I've spent untold hours in meetings with people far smarter than I, working together to develop good solutions to problems, that are then brought down by some bullshit power play from someone who is supposed to be working toward the same goal...

So, yes, I am enthusiastic and postive and willing to help, but I'm not going to commit my time and energy to anything unless it is going to be considered fairly. And from what I've seen time and again, I don't hold high hopes that it ever would be.

 

[JohnnyO]

Qld has 4 good Vintage tracks within driving distance of the CBD of Brisbane. IMO this is the real reason why the numbers are so different. Buladelah is the only purpose VMX track in NSW and it's a good 3 hours for most Sydney siders. I cant explain why the Victorian numbers are down from previous years thou.

That's definitely got a lot to do with it, I've been thinking the same thing.

[firko]

I reckon the lack of tracks in Metro Sydney is THE major reason NSW has dropped back in numbers in the last decade. Four tracks in Brisbane is brilliant, I don't know how many tracks are in metropolitan Melbourne.....anyone tell us?

[Davey Crocket]

And the quality of the tracks JohnnyO, no ones going to come if there shit....SEQ has 6 tracks within 2 hours of Brisbane CBD....including 1 in town at the airport (Nudgee). There are half a dozen more that we don't use anymore but could if we wanted too. I spent today on the clubs bobcat (I'm paying for it now) and with a couple of other guys have dug the dam bigger and made the big berm higher, put a shitload of clay around the  track to get ready for a big working bee in a month. We wont ride this track until next March but where good boy scouts....be prepared....workers V finger pointers!!. A mates in NZ at the moment and he's bringing me back a few copies of one of there dirt rider magazines that has a big article on the Conondale Classic in it. .Most of QVMX club days are 2 day'ers....Sat practice (with a junior and peewee track as well as Vinduro at Biddadaba), Sun race day...seniors only. It gets the whole family involved even to the extent people showing up Fri arvo...families love camping....it's part of VMX. We have riders come from as far as Coffs Harbor, Sunshine coast, Gold coast and Toowoomba...big area (some people come further....depends on the meet).

[Rookie#1]

Consider this, when this (vmx) was all first brought in this country there was no precedent for most things, so anything that happened was a positive. Now there is a history, pages to look back upon and see things retrospectively and see error, reason for change and ways to move forward. I don't particularly agree 100% with any of the main players in this thread, but what I can say is that if the 50 and 60 odd year olds around this sport continue to be the ones running things how they see fit it has a veeery short life left. Yes the 30 and 40 something's will make a few "rookie"  mistakes but that's where the elder statesman come in and guide them gently using their experience In life an this sport, hand over the reigns if you want the cart to keep rolling long after your gone.... although some will chose to take it that way there is no malice in my words...

Cheers, Brendan

[09.0]

Consider this, when this (vmx) was all first brought in this country there was no precedent for most things, so anything that happened was a positive. Now there is a history, pages to look back upon and see things retrospectively and see error, reason for change and ways to move forward. I don't particularly agree 100% with any of the main players in this thread, but what I can say is that if the 50 and 60 odd year olds around this sport continue to be the ones running things how they see fit it has a veeery short life left. Yes the 30 and 40 something's will make a few "rookie"  mistakes but that's where the elder statesman come in and guide them gently using their experience In life an this sport, hand over the reigns if you want the cart to keep rolling long after your gone.... although some will chose to take it that way there is no malice in my words...

Cheers, Brendan

While I would like to agree, isn't the reality more like it's the ones that put up their hand to do the work? While 50 and 60 year olds are the ones willing to do the work, the real world says beggars can't be choosers.

[firko]

oops....I removed this post by accident when attempting to remove another. The other one's now gone and this one returns with some additions.

I think Slakey's right on the money. During the VMX boom period between 1988 and 2000 Sydney based racers had two vintage friendly tracks in the Metropolitan area, Amaroo Park and Dargle and two hours away in Wollongong we had Mt Kembla which in those days featured a much more vintage friendly layout. We also had the use of VMX sympathetic tracks in Singleton, Little Hartley, Clarence and Bathurst....all about two hours from Sydney. Amaroo was the spiritual home of VMX since it had been revamped in 1988 purely for vintage motocross use and despite the occasional dust and pit over crowding problems, most racers loved the place. The beginning of the end of the first VMX boom period can be traced to the closure of Amaroo in August 1998. The Dargle Thumpernats track was also popular with punters but at around the same time Dargle owner Alan Smith indicated that he wasn't interested in running low dollar club days there any more as it cost just as much to prep the track for a club day as it did for a Thumpernats round. Seeing that he got a percentage of the Thumpernat gate you can see his reasoning. While thiose tracks were in operation we were getting 120-150 entries per meeting, all pre 75.

Today, the only tracks that still exist from that era are Mt Kembla and Clarence which are vastly different tracks to what they were in 1998. We've been promised a motocross venue across the road from Eastern Creek when the tip reaches its full up quota but don't hold your breath, that's years away (if it happens at all). MNSW have really dropped a bucket of turds on the motocross racers of NSW by not investing in property close to the Sydney metro for future motocross use when they had the money. They promised us a Broadford style venue with road race, dirt track and motocross circuits and we got the Eastern Creek GP circuit with no club day or off road facilities whatsoever. The lower entry base reflects the track problem but it's only one part of a multi faceted problem.

I also suspect that the Gen X based pre 85 rider demographic has more leisure options and a shorter attention span that the previous baby boomer generation . With technology and the lifestyle associated with it changing at a faster rate than at any other time in history, sticking to an old tech, nostalgia based past time might not appeal to some Gen X&Y potential entrants. I've noticed in my own family and friends that nostalgia is less a priority with Gen X and Y than with folks from my era.  That's not a put down, it merely reflects a society that has a different take on the world than a previous generation racer and may have a small impact on attracting racers from that age demographic.

[FourstrokeForever]

Consider this, when this (vmx) was all first brought in this country there was no precedent for most things, so anything that happened was a positive. Now there is a history, pages to look back upon and see things retrospectively and see error, reason for change and ways to move forward. I don't particularly agree 100% with any of the main players in this thread, but what I can say is that if the 50 and 60 odd year olds around this sport continue to be the ones running things how they see fit it has a veeery short life left. Yes the 30 and 40 something's will make a few "rookie"  mistakes but that's where the elder statesman come in and guide them gently using their experience In life an this sport, hand over the reigns if you want the cart to keep rolling long after your gone.... although some will chose to take it that way there is no malice in my words...

Cheers, Brendan

While I would like to agree, isn't the reality more like it's the ones that put up their hand to do the work? While 50 and 60 year olds are the ones willing to do the work, the real world says beggars can't be choosers.

Exactly Brad. It is a fact that the majority of the work for the running of a club is done by 50 and 60 year olds.... even 70 year olds in some cases. However, when someone younger, 40ish, comes along and puts in a lot of effort with race days etc, their opinion on seeing ways that might improve on what is being done, is mostly ignored and or treated with contempt.
The problem is in my observation though, there are not enough younger people willing to do a bit of work to learn how the "system" works. Without fresh ideas at the round table of all things wise, there is no need to change.
With risk comes reward and until something is done about the lack of promotion in our sport, we will all get older with the same people and no new faces to take the reigns
As has been mentioned in this thread, change seems to be something that very few, if any, of the founders of VMX will accept any idea of changing the way things have always been.
Luckily for QLD vmx, they have Supersenior Col and an obviously dedicated bunch of "doers" to keep on trying new things. And it's working.

[firko]

very few, if any, founders of VMX will accept any idea of changing the way things have always been.

I'm a bit paranoid I suppose but I take it that statement is aimed at me . Right from the start I'll state that I've never opposed change and in fact welcome positive change. What I'm against are changes that come along before any previous changes have had the time to take effect. The philosophy that introducing new divisions will somehow fix any perceived problems in our sport hasn't fully solved any of the problems so far, all they've achieved is to add another half filled division. Pre 85 is now starting to reach some sort of a solid following so pre 90 needs the same few years to reach its own potential before pre 95 or Pre 2000 are even considered.

Nathans points on promotion are valid and way more important than making any wholesale changes to the cutoffs. A big PR campaign similar to what I did for two whole years leading up to the first meeting in 1988 is absolutely essential and I'm prepared to start the ball rolling by submitting some PR pieces and possibly the odd feature to the modern moto press. I've been winding down my magazine work over the last few years but I'm inspired enough to see if I can help VMX get a new audience via ADB, DA, Trans Moto or whoever. As important as VMX Mag is, its preaching to the converted so it's time the straight press learned what we're about. After the Nats I'll sit down and write an introduction piece explaining the workings of VMX and Vinduro to a virgin readership. There are other, more articulate forum members than I that can also contribute in a similar manner. Even small club press releases or event announcements will usually get into a magazines news or 'What's On' sections.  What about some more bike displays similar to Klub Kevlar and Teds efforts at modern meetings? Promoters are always looking for cheap ways to make their events bigger and better so a small 10 bike display with plenty of flyers would usually be welcomed. Back in the late 80's I had bike displays in Westfield shopping centres on Saturday mornings which worked really well in getting the word out there and attracting new racers. I don't know what shopping centre policy with such displays is today but a phonecall to find out wouldn't hurt.

There are shitloads more ways of raising awareness for our sport that I haven't covered here. If you can think of something that might work, don't just throw it at this forum, look further into it by approaching whoever it might be that can help you get it happening. All of these discussions amount to a pile of nothing if they aren't followed up so lets at least make a start.

[Slakewell]

If you really want to fix VMX in NSW it would take a revolt against MCNSW. Maybe a class action from clubs asking for the land fund money back which obliviously has not spent would gain enough attention.

 Nathan for president

[nada]

If you can agree to the significance of these bikes and this era now, what are your thoughts on them being race classes in the near future???

Pre 85 isn't running anything near half of its potential and as Davey says, punters are just starting to get their heads around pre 90 so it would be a swan dive into disaster to introduce (or even consider ) any newer cutoff areas for at least five years. Every time I argue against these new classes I get attacked by the usual antagonists for being an old dinosaur clinging to the pre 75 dream and afraid of change, but the truth is that I have no problem whatsoever with new classes being introduced, my problem is with those classes being introduced too soon. Until the existing classes are hosting full fields in all capacities we need to concentrate on and perfect the divisions we have already. The cancellation of the Post Classic Nats early this year is evidence enough that there are enough problems within the Post Classic era to deal with without adding new fuel to the fire.

I bit my tongue earlier, but...

Pre-85 will NEVER meet the impossible expectations you set for it, because it was introduced too late. Pre-90, Pre-78 and Pre-70 are all doomed to the same fate, for exactly the same reasons. The two strongest classes in VMX are Pre-75 and Evo because they were introduced early.
Pre-75 was a mere 13 years old when VMX started - the newest Pre-95 bike is 18 years old already, and we're talking about waiting another five years?!...

Most of us live our (first) dirt-biking hey-day in our late teens and early twenties. Then things like family and career and mortgages typically get in the way in our mid twenties, and we drift away to look after those other things.
The majority of people join the VMX movement when they're in their mid-30s to mid-40s - when the Family/career/mortgage is under control and they have the time and money to race dirt bikes again, but are not able/willing to mix it with the youngsters at the typical modern club day.
There are plenty of welcome exceptions to that, but since the start of VMX its undoubtedly been the 35~45 year old blokes who are the vast majority of the new recruits - and the these blokes will most closely identify with bikes that are 15~20 years old: The bikes these blokes rode in their own personal heyday.

The Retro/Norths (pre-90) club in NSW is a clear example of this - the average age is clearly considerably lower than it is at Heaven...

We can talk of Pre-85's "potential" until the cows come home, but we crippled it from the start - the window of opportunity was mostly closed before we finally got around to saying "you know what? A bike made in 1984 is really quite old now - maybe it could even be a VMX class". We did the same for Pre-90 and we are about to do the same for Pre-95.

The VMX movement is doomed while the "not yet" mentality is allowed to prevail. Everyone has their own pet era, and that's a GOOD thing - I don't expect the 50+ yo blokes to share my enthusiasm for Pre-95 - but I get properly cranky when they try to claim that my enthusiasm for Pre-95 is somehow less valid than their own enthusiasm for Pre-75 was in 1989...

Hence the reason I have cracked the shits, and im going to disappear for a while!