OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: TM BILL on May 25, 2011, 07:17:47 am
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Now that the original thread has become the original authors notice board
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=18911.0
I will respond on this thread
Quote from Cheapracer
Now that I can discuss things a bit more quietly ...
For those who are technically interested I am getting 3D Laser Scans of various bikes which will then be "straightened" in a computer and a jig made from those dimensions accordingly(again with laser measuring equipment), then a frame will be built on that jig and then that frame will be laser scanned again and compared to the original scan and the jig adjusted as required.
After spending some time with Dave Kellet and sending quite a number of people to him over the years, rarely is there such thing as a straight frame and jigging from a 20 year old, 30 year old or worse still a genuine '60's motocrosser thats had the life bashed out of it is just silly.
BTW, many top racers around Brisbane (and further away) buy a brand new bike for road or racing (sportsbike and MX) and the first place it goes is Dave's and should be on the "must do" list for an old VMX bike, the riding difference is worth more in time around a lap than any other engine mod you could make for the same price besides the safety aspect of a bike that tracks properly over whoops and jumps
Im confused
The sport or hobby those of us on this forum generaly share is vintage dirtbikes , bikes from a bygone era with all their spindly frames ,underwhelming brakes and tempremental habits .
When racing these old girls we are governed by a set of rules aimed to keep an eveen playing field and maintain the integrity of that era.
Since the early days of VMX we now have classes right through from year dot to (in some places ) pre 90, so something for everybody .
There is a huge chasm of development ,quality control , materials etc between the earliest and latest eras in witch we race and if you still want more theres modern MX .
So my confusion is how could these proposed new generation frames with their perfect geometry and modern welding techniques be considered for the earliest classes of vintage racing .
If you so desire to race something that handles so much better than an old Mettise in VMX then why not ride a pre 90 bike .
Im concerned that if this sort of frame and other componentry is allowed into pre 65 racing then the magic of that era will be lost in a short time and replaced with a plastic version .
However cheapracer if you wannabuild one of these then hmmmm
http://flashbackfab.com/pages/excel00.html
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So my confusion is how could these proposed new generation frames with their perfect geometry and modern welding techniques be considered for the earliest classes of vintage racing.
Hey Bill,
I don't think you really have anything to worry about. All he is doing is making them accurately, which is what the Rickman brothers were trying to do originally within in the confines of the available technology of the day.
I don't think the materials will be vastly improved, nor the quality of the welding. Especially the welding as they will have to be bronze welded to maintain the Metisse feel.
I doubt it will end up being vastly different from a GMC copy of a HL frame. I would wager that Geoffs frames are probably more accurate than the originals, and that certainly doesn't compromise their status as replicas. Nor does it compromise their legality in the eyes of the officialdom.
I very much doubt this is the beginning of the end, more likely just one guys dream of making something special available to the market. Again, just like GMC or any of the other individuals around the globe producing replica frames. The purists will always want the originals, but as they become older, more scarce and more valuable they will tend end up as garage queens.
But if anybody dares to start making replica TS125 frames then they will be in trouble…
Catch ya at CD8,
VMX42
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As I am prone to mention vintage roadracing, got a big boost from reproduced Nortons, G50s, Patons, MVs etc etc. Summerfield or one of the specialists will sell you a 60hp 9000 rpm Manx, then you stick Gardner, Whitham or the former world champion of your choice on it and go out iand win.
Is this Vintage racing, probably not but it is very cool, bit the same with the proposed Rickman reps ...... it will help to create interest in pre 65 which is probably needed. I notice there is a lot of interest in CCM only racing in the UK, I would say the big twins would work best in a class totally dedicated to them.
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As expected, I've got a couple of points to make on Marks Metisse "replica" project but the thing that disturbed me most was his locking of the thread. Now I may be wrong but I was always under the impression that discussion involved more than one person. "Now that I can discuss things a bit more quietly ..." by locking off the thread and using it purely to sprout his own beliefs is a misuse of this forum. The OZVMX forum is not a place for any of us to sprout our philosophies or to advertise our wares without the option to be challenged or to enter into open discussion on the subject at hand.
I'm disappointed that Graeme has allowed this misuse of the forum and welcome TM Bills reopening of the discussion.
Another thing that bothered me was Marks hesitantcy in answering what I thought were sensible questions regarding the manufacturing process of his Metisse frames. When he became uncomfortable with my questions he locked the forum, called me a troublemaker and then proceeded to give an answer that would have partially adressed my concerns. Unfortunately the ability to respond to and further discuss his answer is lost because of his thread lockup.
As far as the idea of reproducing Metisse frames, I think it's a perfectly good idea but I repeat that it must be done properly and be a perfect replica of the original item. Despite others cries that there isn't a market for a Metisse replica, I think that if cheap enough and marketed correctly it could open opportunities for more people to enter a class that was previously seen as a haven for the 'leather patch brigade'. I just have my doubts about it being done corectly without a proper jig.
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Hey Firko,
Not to discount any of your concerns, but until he has a product to show us I can't see the point in getting worked up about it.
If he delivers as promised, then the marketplace will decide if he succeeds. I can't say why he didn't want to answer your questions, but I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt and judge him on the product he produces. Then you can make an informed decision.
I will wait with baited breath, but I won't be holding my breath either.
…and as for locking threads [and deleting posts] I think we all pretty much agree it is a bit piss weak. Put up or shut up, but don't hide or delete your posts. If you are wrong - admit it, but at least have the courage to stand behind your words - or don't submit them in the first place.
VMX42
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Jeff....I'm not getting worked up at all....my main concern is the kick in the balls of public forum democracy displayed in Marks locking of the thread. The future success or failure of the Metisse project is fully in the hands of Mark Beckman so it's all down to "if you talk the talk, you've gotta walk the walk".
I do have one question though...where's Jikov while all of this is coming down? In the past whenever I have sprouted a different or cheaper way of entering the pre 65 class, Mr Jikov comes down on me like a ton of shite. Now we have his so called best mate sprouting new Chang Jiang wheels for pre '65 and TIG welded Metisse frames and not a wimper from Marks QVMX co founder. Funny that. ;D
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…and as for locking threads [and deleting posts] I think we all pretty much agree it is a bit piss weak. Put up or shut up, but don't hide or delete your posts. If you are wrong - admit it, but at least have the courage to stand behind your words - or don't submit them in the first place.
VMX42
there is another reason for deleting threads VMX.
In my case the guy the thread was about read the thread and saw the pictures of the " PERFECT CHROME" so there was no need to continue. He had got the message , end of story. :)
Mike
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Hmmmm, Sour Cream-Rhubarb Squares!!
Ingredients
1/2 cup white sugar
1 tablespoon butter
1 1/2 cups packed brown sugar
1 egg
1 teaspoon baking soda
1 cup sour cream
1/2 cup chopped walnuts
1 teaspoon ground cinnamon
1/2 cup shortening
2 cups all-purpose flour
1/2 teaspoon salt
1 1/2 cups chopped rhubarb
Directions
Preheat oven to 350 degrees F. Grease and flour 13 x 9 x 2 inch pan.
Mix sugar, nuts, melted butter and cinnamon until crumbly and set aside.
In a separate bowl, cream together brown sugar, shortening and egg.
Add flour, soda and salt to creamed mixture alternately with sour cream. Lastly, stir in rhubarb.
Pour mixture into pan and sprinkle with reserved topping.
Bake at 350 degrees F for 45 to 50 minutes. Cut in squares and serve warm or cool.
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Im confused
I see your confusion being in NZ, I said "replica" whereas for you I should have said "repluca".
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Im confused
The sport or hobby those of us on this forum generaly share is vintage dirtbikes , bikes from a bygone era with all their spindly frames ,underwhelming brakes and tempremental habits .
When racing these old girls we are governed by a set of rules aimed to keep an eveen playing field and maintain the integrity of that era.
Since the early days of VMX we now have classes right through from year dot to (in some places ) pre 90, so something for everybody .
There is a huge chasm of development ,quality control , materials etc between the earliest and latest eras in witch we race and if you still want more theres modern MX .
So my confusion is how could these proposed new generation frames with their perfect geometry and modern welding techniques be considered for the earliest classes of vintage racing .
If you so desire to race something that handles so much better than an old Mettise in VMX then why not ride a pre 90 bike .
Im concerned that if this sort of frame and other componentry is allowed into pre 65 racing then the magic of that era will be lost in a short time and replaced with a plastic version .
Im confused
I for one am not surprised in the least.
I see your confusion being in NZ, I said "replica" whereas for you I should have said "repluca".
Wev'e never met :o but those who know me including a lot of members of this forum will tell you i dont have a Kiwi accent :) Where i come from we would say Copy or knock off ;)
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Don,t side track the guy TM he,s got a frame to build and hasn,t the time . :)
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Where i come from we would say Copy or knock off ;)
No, I'm building exact dimensional replica's, copies may be construed as being only similar. Replica includes items such as 62 degrees steering etc that the bike will perform as a new one in it's day did. I'll repeat again - the frame gets straightened in the computer, not modified in anyway then the jigs are built from those original Metisse dimensions.
Knock off might imply I am doing something illegal which I am not, I am even in the process of registering the design here to stop shitty copies being made. Ironically New Zealand made copy Metisse frames many years before.
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I am even in the process of registering the design here to stop shitty copies being made
That's funny.....registering a copied design in the land of the 10 buck Rolex copy. Design registration ammounts to three fifths of SFA in China. Priceless. ;D
............oh, and thanks for the recipe, I'll whip some up this arvo to have with a cup of hot cocoa during State of Origin game tonight.
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Don,t side track the guy TM he,s got a frame to build and hasn,t the time . :)
Oh I got a couple of things on the go for VMX trying to fill some holes - I just don't have the time to battle the dicks who want to be heard and bring you down. Look above at the "Chang Jiang wheels" comment overtone, note no mention of BMW copies of which they are or that they are genuine pre '65 hubs, just the Chinese name.
Actually, not thats it's any of your business Firkin, Jikov has been hard on me about this project but my answer to him was "when we started QVMX the main purpose was to increase the amount of riders in VMX so we had people to race against now I want to race pre '65 and I want to do the same thing - bodies on bikes! - and the only way thats going to happen is if it's affordable and fun".
I don't know WTF this about besides egotistical pricks who just have to be heard, I just want to get some bikes out there for people to race in the same class as me and it's as simple as that - if you don't like it, don't trust them, don't want to buy one fork off and mind your own business and don't consider that you know more than me about how to accomplish the end result because with the possible exception of GMC, you don't.
I have arranged hopefully for a trial frame to be in Oz mid July and the only thing I will post further on this subject is about the wheels and other VMX stuff I may come across.
If you want to tear this project apart and put it down to suit your own egos and failed projects go for your lives.
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Lighten up, FFS. You spat it when questioned, then locked the thread down, taking your bat and ball home with you. Now it's a re-opened subject, but you can't stop with the putdowns. Do what you like, but why use this forum as a conduit for your petulance ? Better off spending the time and energy on getting the frames under way, I'd have thought. ::)
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Design registration ammounts to three fifths of SFA in China. Priceless. ;D
So now you're an expert on Chinese IPR law?
I am and was recently involved in tearing a business apart and stripping their assets for copying motorcycle designs so your comment is one of pure ignorance.
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Lighten up, FFS.
Yeah I started this by coming up with a project to help VMX.
LMAO actually ;)
But you keep bumping it to the top Mate along with the others so you can be heard and we'll have some more fun - all I'm doing is responding.
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me thinks you do complain to much- you had a great idea,wanked on and cant take it back.take a dim sim and a chill pill.
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Now c'mon Cheapracer thats all the lads wanted in your original thread was a response ;D
Knock off " english slang for copy, certinaly not suggesting your doing anything illegal ole mate ::)
Quote Cheapracer
"I don't know WTF this about besides egotistical pricks who just have to be heard, I just want to get some bikes out there for people to race in the same class as me and it's as simple as that ""
Calling people names though :o i thought you would have been above that ;)
I personally believe its very honourable of you to try to supply a budget racer for others in your class :) Hows the racing going ? im supprised you actually find the time to go racing with all the buisiness enterprises and motor racing projects , birthdays, dismantling ilegal knock off factories and posting on various forums :o but what would i know ??? im only a broken arse Towie and VMX Wobbler :)
If its all becoming a bit much (i only say so cause you seem a little frazzled in your last post ) I am available to take over your racing duties (at a very reasonable rate ) if that helps ;D
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…I am available to take over your racing duties (at a very reasonable rate ) if that helps ;D
You mean 'wobbler' duties don't you Bill?
And I know your rates are very reasonable, unless you are an asian tourist with a pet who needs to be in Auckland the next day… ;D
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Now c'mon Cheapracer thats all the lads wanted in your original thread was a response ;D
What response didn't I give? I'm not above calling people names, where on earth did you get that thought from?
im supprised you actually find the time to go racing with all the buisiness enterprises and motor racing projects , birthdays, dismantling ilegal knock off factories and posting on various forums :o but what would i know ??? im only a broken arse Towie and VMX Wobbler :)
Add that I also play tennis most days and walk every day for at least an hour and travel a lot.
You obviously don't know a single thing about my daily life but feel you have some right to make an overtone of doubt about it as does Firkin with no evidence at all but apparently I just have to sit here while those aspersions are cast .....
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Love your work Bill--just keep throwing out the line and he'll bite every time. Best entertainment and no charge.
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Jeff i stand corrected Wobbler duties ;D however with my factory ride on the new improved Mettise with its swiss watch precision handling , my lap times will drop dramaticly ;
Cheapracer please dont miss interpret my admiration for your busy and obviously well managed schedule :o as i say i am but a humble serf looking to learn from the master ;)
Quote Cheapracer " Add that I also play tennis most days and walk every day for at least an hour and travel a lot."
Bloody hell sounds like an ad for womens monthly toiletries ;
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Quote Cheapracer " Add that I also play tennis most days and walk every day for at least an hour and travel a lot."
Im now starting to understand how you do it ;) your either a multi tasker or a very bad tennis player ;D
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As a bemused bystander I find this one a bit hard to follow. I don't know Cheapracer at all, but like anyone on here he's welcome to delete or lock his thread if he wishes. It's not some kind of rigid autocracy here. It'd be better if people didn't but hey, sometimes things just go pear-shaped.
Now, Cheapracer does bite too quickly, but as far as I can see, all he's done is suggest that he make some decent copies of what I suppose is an uncommon and expensive frame so as to open up the possibility that more old Pommy bikes appear on the grid. Not unreasonable, and no different to what GMC and a few others do. The frame, while of modern manufacture, would be a faithful replica (he claims) of the original, so it's well within the spirit of things, surely?
I'm beat if I can see why all the angst, other than the fact that the guy tends to fan the flames with his responses. What exactly is everyone's beef? Do you honestly disagree with the proposition? Why? Or do you just dislike the guy for the way he comes across (sort of like poor old Ji). Or is there some history here I am unaware of?
I reckon just lighten up...
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your either a multi tasker or a very bad tennis player ;D
I am both.
Did you consider that I just walk out to the factory and instruct my workers for 5 to 10 minutes on their tasks for the morning or afternoon (as I just did a few moments ago) ..... I pay attention to my cars about 1 to 2 hours per day on average. I also got one of my workers to start bending up a trial frame to work with but I will be paying closer attention to that than the cars but I still have plenty of time to "bite" on posts ;D ;D
I was also just admiring our new DUFIEUX 5 axis gantry mill that just arrived from France, I'm kind of hoping next year that will come in handy for replicating (there's that word again) some chosen VMX parts that can't be gotten anymore depending on our program with it.
If anyone's interested I'll take some shots of it when it's unpacked.
I'm about to do some runs (casting and machining billet) of similar components with a neighboring company that I can't talk about as the client dosn't want the "Made in China" stigma that comes from cheapasses buying cheap shit and when it breaks blaming everyone else but themselves.
Noted Graeme, thank you.
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Do you use Solid Works as a designer- feed program ?
Solid Edge. We adapt Seimens controls to all our machines.
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Hey,Mark
Gary Armstrong here long time,what do you expect these frames will sell for if you haven't already mentioned it ,I wouldn't mind building a replica of the Metisse my old man used to race,
#8
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:D :D :D. Good stuff Ross.
I reckon a plank off might be a goer,seeing theres lotsa stuff to lie on,in all those pics.
Anyway,its good to see yer back.
Cheers,Mark.
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Hey Nimmo,that suit is very mature and professional looking. 8)
You could sell Maicos 414's fast now ;D ;)
cheers A
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looks like a couple off vmx heavyweights butting horns (again)its a bit like state off origin qld vs nsw
More like a couple goats in rut. Anyway I think there is a decent market for reasonably priced replicas.... the Rickman is getting a bit ancient, but maybe replica CCM or C&J frame for XR motor or trick frame for TM 400 engine would be well recieved.....
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More like a couple goats in rut. Anyway I think there is a decent market for reasonably priced replicas.... the Rickman is getting a bit ancient, but maybe replica CCM or C&J frame for XR motor or trick frame for TM 400 engine would be well recieved.....
Yeah a replica C&J or JBR Honda frame sounds good to me :)
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Hey Nimmo,that suit is very mature and professional looking. 8)
You could sell Maicos 414's fast now ;D ;)
cheers A
[/quote
dressed for sucsess
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Hey,Mark
Gary Armstrong here long time,what do you expect these frames will sell for if you haven't already mentioned it ,I wouldn't mind building a replica of the Metisse my old man used to race,
Hey Gary!
Don't really know Mate, just want to help a few fella's out and since your an original and your hearts in the right place that puts you in good stead.
Just the tube and my workers time and freight so somewhere between 500 to 1000 I guess depending on what extras I can put with it such as the pre '65 BMW wheel but I need to make a few and figure it out, don't mind giving them away cheap but don't want it costing me either.
Do you know I still feel guilty about missing that rock in the grass at Veresdale on the 4 stroke day I ran that you hit with your Swedish monster and flattened the front wheel - was an awesome looking endo when you hit it though, don't know how you stayed on!
Gee we had fun.
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or trick frame for TM 400 engine would be well recieved.....
Andy Caldecott didn't seem to have any trouble on a bog standard TM 400. A well know VMX'er stopped modding his bikes and spent the money instead at Steven Gall or Dack's MX race school and immediately starting going much faster than any bike mod he had ever made.
I don't know what it is about frames, I know most of you will get in and fix your own cars, do repairs on your houses, make a work bench or a BBQ or a trailer but when it comes to a few simple bits of bent and straight tube ....
The rocket science and development is already done for you, your only making a copy and just one for yourself is quite easy (compared to setting up for a run).
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great! Another shiny-arse waving his dick around at everyone going
You're wrong on one point, I didn't get here by being a shiny ass, 4 years apprenticeship with Yamaha, 25 years of my own mechanical/light engineering workshops, 5 years running workshops for other people and 5 years working '9 to 5' for others. And thats besides the second job after hours when things were quiet in the workshop some years. It's only this year things are falling into place for me to be able to undertake some fun projects that I've had in mind for years.
But otherwise you're right, it's great to be me.
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[quote
But otherwise you're right, it's great to be me.
[/quote
I wouldn't know ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suzwaW_SqtU
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Dumbgeon here we come.
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Dumbgeon here we come.
Nah let it run, I have no issues with it and let the few look rather silly when frames start coming along. People tend to get bored with it anyway and they stop posting eventually.
What amazes me is the people who complain about the thread - FFS, it's you clicking on the mouse that causes it, no one forces you to do it so just avert your gaze, it's that simple.
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I wouldn't know ;)
Finally an on topic post.
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2K for a local 650 triumph needing a rebuild, there don't seem to be too many around though!
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The reason , I am asking is , if we can assume the engines will be costing around 5-8K + 2K for the frame and 3-4 K for other gear like forks , shocks , pipes etc , we still have a bike valued at( perhaps we better say owing us) 15 K . Is that correct ?
No, but where are you going with this?
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I think Joan raised this point in the original thread ??? A low cost frame is a good start if you want to go down that road and CR has shown what could be a cheap option for pre 65 Legal wheels . Marc FX i think in an early post suggested Triumph motors (ex ebay ) at reasonable cost also.
But even putting my reservations about the diluting of a special era i still dont believe you could build a bike from scratch for under 10k
and at the end of the day you still have a Chinka knock off with some original parts . I would have to question weather spending 75% of what it would cost to buy an original or build a replica (built from established aftermarket suppliers ) would make good sense ???
The Frame while being a major component of the bike does not ( particularly in the case of a Mettise ) account for a huge part of the overall build cost. Wallys figures for race ready motors probably are not to far off the mark.
At the end of the day its CRs project and the market will dictate weather or not he can sell any, I suppose owners of genuine Mettises may be a target market for a replacement race frame (to preserve their originals but i think those owners have to much pride and integrity to travel that path .
Now if somone wants to knock out RM 250 / 370 / 400 A B C frames (as they have a tendency to rot in the lower rails ) i think you could have a market ;)
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I am trying to project what the difference would be in the total end figure between a pommie Metisse and your version . In a percentage on the whole outlay , I mean
Fine but I disagree with the way you are most likely looking at it.
When you spend $4,000+ on a frame kit in all it's nickel plated glory you're not going to put a $200 swap meet Jawa 350/B33/Enfield/Yam YDS-2/NSU 250/etc, etc. engine into it but a $500 frame you might.
Same for the rest of the bike.
What about this one hey, my frames with some Indian bullet running gear - hmm must look into that...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Pre-65-Royal-Enfield-500-Metisse-scrambles-twinshock-/230609159968
(http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt289/mongrelexo/EnfieldMetisse.jpg)
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Rather than a sport based on harmonious team work, ours is one of the individual pulling up to a grid against all. So welcome to our forum Cheapracer, a place full of those such raging egos. You certainly qualify.
Regardless of how things pan out for you on this forum? I am actually stoked with the out come you will obviously provide us with.
Time is money, and definitely the two prime elements that spell affordability for the vast majority of us. Even in the mind of a simpleton it must spell more of these now “affordable mounts” will equate to an increase of machines on the grid, therefore encouraging the very survival and revival of the pre65 class.
Obviously some will consider it also to be a great start for whatever engine they have laying under the bench. An XS650 pre70 or whatever pre75 concoction as well, be it VMX, Grass track or Dirt track.
Imagine how boring it would be if we all had the same idea of a hybrid creation.
If I were to like you or not? Is not the reason I am excited. In the end I will be more likely great-full.
We need all classes to be healthy, if we are to dream of ridding and racing against each other for years to come.
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But even putting my reservations about the diluting of a special era
I still dont believe you could build a bike from scratch for under 10k
I have no idea what you mean by diluting the era but having done a reasonable amount of study of the era and they ran literally anything in the day - you just see all the flash Metisse etc up front in National events, go check out the club scene of the day.
Because you lack imagination. Just before I decided to come to China I was well underway for my pre '65 bike and besides the engine which was a firing Triumph 500 twin (that fired as a single) that I started to build, the rest of the bike was pure budget stuff and wouldn't cost a bloke $500 (besides the engine as mentioned).
C15 (or B40) frame, Bantam tank, home made seat, cheap alloy guards from a swap meet - what else is there? Plenty of cheap period wheels around if you don't have to use CZ, Rickman, REH etc.
Forks were interesting, any old 60's Triumph steel lowers which are common as and I grabbed some non descipt old 36mm Japanese road bike forks from a wreckers for $20, cut the lower axle mounts off and turned the outside of the alloy lower legs down until they slid down inside the Triumph steel lowers (theres long and short steel British lowers btw). The Triumph forks have huge seal/spring holders and gaitors as standard so everything looks cosher. Nothing special about them and certainly no where near as good as Ceriani, CZ etc forks but safe at least and very cheap to make.
So welcome to our forum Cheapracer, a place full of those such raging egos. You certainly qualify.
Thanks! huh? hang on a minute .... :D :D
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CR has shown what could be a cheap option for pre 65 Legal wheels
Good luck with Chang Jiang wheels - they're not worth a sqirt on a Chang Jiang
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Good luck with Chang Jiang wheels - they're not worth a sqirt on a Chang Jiang
The BMW/Ural/Chang Jiang weighs in at 370 kgs ready to go, the front brake may be undersized for that situation but is a rather nice size, some may consider oversized, for a 120 to 150kg pre '65. I note the same brake was used on the 500cc BMW racers such as the R5's at Nurburgring in the day so it couldn't have been terrible.
I wonder how much perception is involved - here is a BMW classic racer and a Chinese POS sidecar with exactly the same brake but which would you rather know that it came off? ...
(http://m1.ikiwq.com/img/xl/gu17S0qpivYqQAsLlpuYcb.jpg)
(http://i00.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/388208062/cj750_sidecar.jpg)
Further it's just a round steel drum with expanding friction shoes, doesn't matter what it's off and no different to any other drum brake (of it's ilk), it's all in the leverage, cam width and ramp angle and of course lining material as well as other setup tricks.
I just found a supplier for the Indian Bullet brakes too being full width alloy, in India obviously but I have been told importing stuff from India to China is no problem - will investigate further.
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great! Another shiny-arse waving his dick around at everyone going
You an' mark (with a 'c') should be able to hose each other off with all this wank.....
Just waking up in Tokyo and didn't realise the circus, or at least one of the major clowns arrived in town.
If you want my bio Ross, I was apprenticed in NZ as fitter/turner, came to Aus, became service engineer for marine turbochargers for a number of years, studied at Maritime College and gained degree and MBA and ended up one of the company directors.... I paid my own way and earn t every dollar
You too could have done something positive with your life Ross instead of being well known by reputation as being a total loser, but guess you are about sniffing the rug rather than owning it.
Back on subject Mark I think the Rickman Indian is awesome idea.
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What about this one hey, my frames with some Indian bullet running gear - hmm must look into that...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Pre-65-Royal-Enfield-500-Metisse-scrambles-twinshock-/230609159968
(http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt289/mongrelexo/EnfieldMetisse.jpg)
Hmmmm, interesting.
"With the added benefit of being fully road legal.
Starts easily, runs very well. Rides well changing up and down the box as it should - Benefits from a 'neutral finder'. Sounds fantastic through the stainless exhausts. Cruises happily at 60mph.
Sold ready to go with a fresh MOT, and taxed until July.
Has travelled just over 2500 miles since being registered in 2002. All road miles.
Features Renthal bars, Magura controls, Classic twinshocks, Morad rims, Aspes forks.
Be under no illusion this bike is as described and not a worn out racer like some. It lives indoors and is well looked after.
Get an entry in quickly for Farleigh Castle!
Beautifully brazed Metisse frame with irridescent goldy chrome coloured nickel plating."
"Get an entry in quickly for Farleigh Castle!" would the Indian Enfield be eligable?
I wonder if Enfield India will sell you engines separately (or just rip off your idea ::)).
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When you spend $4,000+ on a frame kit in all it's nickel plated glory you're not going to put a $200 swap meet Jawa 350/B33/Enfield/Yam YDS-2/NSU 250/etc, etc. engine into it but a $500 frame you might.
A kit suitable for DT/RT1 motor? $500? I'll take five please. How soon delivery? ;D
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/big26rs.jpg)(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/big26ls.jpg)
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While I was swimming , I was thinking .
Fair dinkum Wasp if you keep this up you,ll have nobody to race. :)
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I don't get it. Here we have a bloke that has access to a manufacturing plant. Who's passionate about VMX. Can probably make just about any unobtanium part that may be needed. Not interested at making a big profit out of the sport. And he get's torched for it. I guess that's what happens when big fish jump into small ponds.
Could it be the ego of the negative non achiever that tries to tear down the ego of the successful.
How about, great stuff mate, can't wait to see them, hope you sell a motza. What else is in the pipeline?
God help Richard Branson if he should ever show an interest in VMX and decide to build replica anythings.
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I don't get it. Here we have a bloke that has access to a manufacturing plant. Who's passionate about VMX. Can probably make just about any unobtanium part that may be needed.
God help Richard Branson if he should ever show an interest in VMX and decide to build replica anythings.
I fully agree replica parts and bikes totally revitalised Classic Road Racing and here we have the potential to do this with pre 65 VMX bikes. I think that they are being produced in China is just a reflection of the reality of the cost of manufacture these days. If you want a reasonable price frame then China it is.
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I don't get it. Here we have a bloke that has access to a manufacturing plant. Who's passionate about VMX. Can probably make just about any unobtanium part that may be needed. Not interested at making a big profit out of the sport. And he get's torched for it. I guess that's what happens when big fish jump into small ponds.
Could it be the ego of the negative non achiever that tries to tear down the ego of the successful.
How about, great stuff mate, can't wait to see them, hope you sell a motza. What else is in the pipeline?
God help Richard Branson if he should ever show an interest in VMX and decide to build replica anythings.
I think Richard Branson has a proven track record ;) not just words on a forum :) as Graeme says Quote "A kit suitable for DT/RT1 motor? $500? I'll take five please. How soon delivery?"
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drop the tag and get on with your journey in VMX.
Cheers Trev, Worms, no other tags required!!!!!!
You need to get your facts right before you post incorrect information and this isn't the thread for it either. You could have PM'ed your concern to me - but I guess no one else would have seen it then.
You do know I live in another country don't you? It kind of makes it hard to attend meetings I assure you.
FWIW posting "no tags required!!!!!!" is a paradox compounded by the 6 exclamation marks and even further compounded by your need to double identify yourself.
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Obviously some will consider it also to be a great start for whatever engine they have laying under the bench. An XS650 pre70 or whatever pre75 concoction as well, be it VMX, Grass track or Dirt track.
Imagine how boring it would be if we all had the same idea of a hybrid creation.
Hell yeah, I mean lets face it the Mitesse frame will walk rings about a lot of pre 70 and 74 frames, so there is no real reason to pigeon hole the engine selection into building pure pre 65 bikes, I feel a Rickman TM400 coming on .... put me down for one.
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Obviously some will consider it also to be a great start for whatever engine they have laying under the bench. An XS650 pre70 or whatever pre75 concoction as well, be it VMX, Grass track or Dirt track.
Imagine how boring it would be if we all had the same idea of a hybrid creation.
Hell yeah, I mean lets face it the Mitesse frame will walk rings about a lot of pre 70 and 74 frames, so there is no real reason to pigeon hole the engine selection into building pure pre 65 bikes, I feel a Rickman TM400 coming on .... put me down for one.
Actually I think the Japanese motors have the most promise when it comes to volume. Although I was been facetious (I've got too many projects and not enough money or time at the mo ::)) but with the spare engines I've have I could build 5 Rickman DT/RT1 Yammy's - in race, enduro, trail or street bike form. And I wouldn't be the only one. There must be thousands of 'spare' jap engines under benchs all through Australia, America and Europe, just waiting for the opportunity and spark of inspiration.
And the Rickman frame ticks all the boxes - 'period correct' ;), lightweight, handles, looks and now affordable 8).
Whatcha reckon Cheapo ;) :).
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Hell yeah, I mean lets face it the Mitesse frame will walk rings about a lot of pre 70 and 74 frames, so there is no real reason to pigeon hole the engine selection into building pure pre 65 bikes, I feel a Rickman TM400 coming on .... put me down for one.
I often wonder why myself Marc why Metisse is pidgeon holed into pre' 65 and pre '70 and would be awesome for TM400, RT360, XL420 etc but best of all a home for the much unloved SC500 Yamaha donk.
MX250 - I can actually get CrMo tube no problem, one of the reasons for going with 1020 DOM is so people can easily adapt various engines into them, make up the mounts and successfully weld them in themselves. I may have to consider how to do the headstocks though for different steering stems.
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I think Richard Branson has a proven track record ;) not just words on a forum :) as Graeme says Quote "A kit suitable for DT/RT1 motor? $500? I'll take five please. How soon delivery?"
Besides Worms ramblings, incorrect as they are, I was going to change my sig yesterday with ironically another quote from Graeme. The sig was put there in response to "WTF are you, WTF have you done" to get a little support for this project. I shouldn't have fallen into it because the answers never satisfy those type of people anyway.
But I digress, you are correct, the are "just words on a forum" at the moment but then again according to my experience in the racing vehicle field, so is the response of "paying money".
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I may have to consider how to do the headstocks though for different steering stems.
A fitter & turner mate with access to a lathe, bearing and seal catalogue will soon mount any front end to a politically correct pre65 frame. I would be protecting myself by not feeding the “knockers” and “detractors”, be they current or future scrutineering objectors and finger pointers. I wouldn’t give a thought to producing a head stock or a blank frame for vintage racing that is anything other than pre65 politically correct CR.
Like said, a great frame for many a class or dreamer. I will attach my own engine mounts.
I have allot of tools, but not everything.
I do have a great oxy set and Manganese Bronze rods though 8).
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I wouldn’t give a thought to producing a head stock or a blank frame that is anything other than pre65 pollically correct.
100% agree, I was thinking more along the lines of internal adapters for the headstock as it is quite large and accommodating (60 x 163mm).
Hmmm lunch time, hope we have fried dog again or cat on a stick ...
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I wouldn’t give a thought to producing a head stock or a blank frame that is anything other than pre65 pollically correct.
100% agree, I was thinking more along the lines of internal adapters for the headstock as it is quite large and accommodating (60 x 163mm).
Hmmm lunch time, hope we have fried dog again or cat on a stick ...
there a luxury i hope i havent eaten today
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100% agree, I was thinking more along the lines of internal adapters for the headstock as it is quite large and accommodating (60 x 163mm).
[/quote]
Bearing cups ala Harley Davidson, then the builder can just have the spigot machined for the correct length of the head stock and you are done in 10 minutes.
The just take the Mitesse approach and with engine adaption, do one front and two rear mounts, with a bit of thought you could then create a universal drill it yourself mounting plate and spacer set.
I just picked up TM400 motor for $120 with CDI and carb, combine that with universal Mitesse frame and Japanese wheels and running gear, I think you could build killer pre 74 bike at reasonable price.
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Awesome direction this thread has now taken, thanks guys.
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Yep well lets hope it lasts ::)
Anyway so you have the universal engine plates trimmed and drilled, with nothing more sophisticated than a jig saw and drill press. Make a simple guage that bolts on the counter shaft and meets the frame so you can't shag up alignment.
Next I break out the alloy copy of the Rickman airbox that came with the kit.... leave it open at the top and closed at the sides, add a spigot adaptor that I can fit to the front with hole saw, that takes rubber hose on one side and K& N foam filter pod on the other.
So thats engine carb, airbox and triple trees, next the 10 extra weld on tabs that come with the kit, these allow me to mount the ancillary items, seat, tank and pipe, CDI in the airbox... coil on the frame..... disco.... last but not least the pre cut extra long rear wheel spacers so I can drop the wheel in and line that bad boy up.
There you go, week of evenings and trips to super Cheap auto and it is done.
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Yep well lets hope it lasts ::)
Anyway so you have the universal engine plates trimmed and drilled, with nothing more sophisticated than a jig saw and drill press. Make a simple guage that bolts on the counter shaft and meets the frame so you can't shag up alignment.
Next I break out the alloy copy of the Rickman airbox that came with the kit.... leave it open at the top and closed at the sides, add a spigot adaptor that I can fit to the front with hole saw, that takes rubber hose on one side and K& N foam filter pod on the other.
So thats engine carb, airbox and triple trees, next the 10 extra weld on tabs that come with the kit, these allow me to mount the ancillary items, seat, tank and pipe, CDI in the airbox... coil on the frame..... disco.... last but not least the pre cut extra long rear wheel spacers so I can drop the wheel in and line that bad boy up.
There you go, week of evenings and trips to super Cheap auto and it is done.
Hey Marc,
While your doing yours can you knock one up for me as well… ;)
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Hey Marc,
While your doing yours can you knock one up for me as well… ;)
Yeah I just dry built my Rickman so it is still fresh in my mind, I am pretty impressed with it, well thought out chassis, strong as a mofo and everything fits together without a drama. IMO far better built and stronger than any Japanese pre 74 bike I can think of.
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Yeah I just dry built my Rickman so it is still fresh in my mind, I am pretty impressed with it, well thought out chassis, strong as a mofo and everything fits together without a drama. IMO far better built and stronger than any Japanese pre 74 bike I can think of.
As Big Kev used to say
I'm EXCITED. :D
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awfully sorry Mark, statement retracted, goodluck with your frames.
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Standard Mitese has pretty much enough room for small black Chev so this means most engines are viable including the roadbikes, so as mentioned XS650, CB350, would just about anything else will fit. Though GT750 waterbus would be pushing it.
With bodywork, the Ricky is like a featherbed Norton frame where you have wide top frame rails, so tank choice is pretty limited unless you are good at welding.
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awfully sorry Mark, statement retracted, goodluck with your frames.
Noted, awesome, thank you - will buy you a beer next trip to Oz.
Sorry for some of my misplaced posts too folks, I just went through this with the race car crowd and maybe I'm still wearing that a little on my shoulder.
I am just trying to make it a bit of fun and attractive to more people so there's more people to race with me, that was my goal before as is now, there is no catches.
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Civility, where the F did this come from. ;D ;D
I'm still interested in the end product.
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I was also just admiring our new DUFIEUX 5 axis gantry mill that just arrived from France, I'm kind of hoping next year that will come in handy for replicating (there's that word again) some chosen VMX parts that can't be gotten anymore depending on our program with it.
5 axis gantry mill? Every garage should have one ;D.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnIvhlKT7SY&feature=player_embedded
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Hi,
yes marcFX, you are half right , use an alloy air box , but closed at the top and open at the sides ,easy to mount a K&N or Unifilter, Left or Right side access to clean it ,Its a lot easier to get the side covers off compared to removing the seat and seat base,
and on top of airbox, that is, under the seat, safe, clean, tidy, dry mounting for your PVL ignition, it works on mine,
cheers
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5 axis gantry mill? Every garage should have one ;D.
We put the beds in a few months ago and have been waiting for the concrete to set and over the last few weeks the guys have been painstakingly leveling the beds to within a thousandth. The new wooden boxes you see around the pit contain the 5 axis head and parts of the gantry...
(http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt289/mongrelexo/5axisbed.jpg)
(http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt289/mongrelexo/meinbed.jpg)
(http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt289/mongrelexo/leveler.jpg)
Heres part of the 5 axis head itself, it's not a small one by the way ..
(http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt289/mongrelexo/5axishead.jpg)
Heres our current 2.4 and 3.2 meter swing gantry mill that are only 3 axis at the moment for general milling, boring, surfacing etc..
(http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt289/mongrelexo/24swing.jpg)
(http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt289/mongrelexo/32swing.jpg)
And regardless of talking about it, methods etc, pieces of tube have to be manualy bent eventually to start on the way for a test/dummy frame for the Metisse project, I'm not into it full on yet just dabbling as I'm quite busy with other stuff at the moment, especially trying to get some tennis in daily before the real hot Summer weather starts up in a few weeks time ...
(http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt289/mongrelexo/metissebends.jpg)
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I think our turbocharger factory in Jongjing would blow you away, it is the largest single investment our organization has made in China. It is direct copy of our factory in Switzerland with multiple machine cells, the material, jigs etc are transferred to the CNC Mills and other stations with robot cars that are also directed within the cells program.
So almost no people required apart from servicing the machines. cool part is production cell instructions are down loaded from Switzerland so you can operate 2 factories on one set of secure instructions. The other cool part is it is demand based so it will machine an alloy compressor, cast iron casing, big, small parts all one after the other on same machine.
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I think our turbocharger factory in Jongjing would blow you away, it is the largest single investment our organization has made in China. It is direct copy of our factory in Switzerland with multiple machine cells, the material, jigs etc are transferred to the CNC Mills and other stations with robot cars that are also directed within the cells program.
So almost no people required apart from servicing the machines. cool part is production cell instructions are down loaded from Switzerland so you can operate 2 factories on one set of secure instructions. The other cool part is it is demand based so it will machine an alloy compressor, cast iron casing, big, small parts all one after the other on same machine.
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/icons/wwp.gif) ;D.
Sounds like both of you have some very exciting projects at hand - at different ends of the spectrum. Cheapo's looks like it's on the up close and personal level 8). Marc's sounds like it's on the awesome OMG level ;D.
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Mines bigger than yours ;D ;D
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Mines bigger than yours ;D ;D
sorry didn't mean to get into a my turning center is bigger than your competition, more I am blown away by the new production cell technology ....
as for pictures I am under confidentiality, but feel free to read our press releases
http://www.abb.com/product/us/9AAC910016.aspx?country=JP
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sorry didn't mean to get into a my turning center is bigger than your competition,
Nah thats cool Mate, I know exactly where your coming from. I can stand in production centers all day long and watch machinery in action.
Deyang, my home town, is only 3 million people but has China's leading GDP for heavy industrial. The city is based around 2 main companies, ErZhong and Dong Qi and they are just awesome, they are so large they have their own rail system, police stations, road system, hospitals etc - basically small cities to themselves. Besides many projects Dong Qi is the worlds leading supplier of Wind Turbines and ErZhong has a couple of the worlds biggest forges and built most of the 3 Gorges Dam (all the turbines etc) - we do a little milling and turning for both of them (as many of the smaller companies here do) on our bigger turning centers, I'll post some pics of those in the next few days.
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Hell yeah, I mean lets face it the Mitesse frame will walk rings about a lot of pre 70 and 74 frames, so there is no real reason to pigeon hole the engine selection into building pure pre 65 bikes, I feel a Rickman TM400 coming on .... put me down for one.
I heard the new rules for 2012 are set to allow any and all new frames that meet original period specs ( geopmetry etc) regardless, so you have a market for them coming if not already.
I have an Sc500 looking for a new frame so if you build one im interested and like graeme mx250 i have a few Dt 1 id like to find light weight homes for. iF you can knoock em out for $500 put me down for 5 too
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I heard the new rules for 2012 are set to allow any and all new frames that meet original period specs ( geopmetry etc) regardless, so you have a market for them coming if not already.
I hope not Mate, lets keep some decency to it all unless I misunderstand your post. My frames will be dimensionally replicated true to the word regardless of loose rules(?).
Gotta say a Metisse SC500 would be a weapon, are they running Classic Desert yet!! - how did you happen upon an SC500 engine anyway?
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I heard the new rules for 2012 are set to allow any and all new frames that meet original period specs ( geopmetry etc) regardless, so you have a market for them coming if not already.
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I hope not Mate, lets keep some decency to it all unless I misunderstand your post. My frames will be dimensionally replicated true to the word regardless of loose rules(?
[/quote]
think you need to read it at least 3 times cheapie (obviously misunderstood the 1st time ;D), :P
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think you need to read it at least 3 times cheapie (obviously misunderstood the 1st time ;D), :P
(http://www.offthemarkcartoons.com/cartoons/2004-10-07.gif)
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Mick, you crack me up.
Marc & Cheapy, I'm jealous, being a self employed Metal Fabricator I can only drool over the resources you have at your disposal.
Good luck to you both.
I Just want frame number 2 off the production line, my lucky number.
Not asking for much am I???
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I hope not Mate, lets keep some decency to it all unless I misunderstand your post. My frames will be dimensionally replicated true to the word regardless of loose rules(?).
Gotta say a Metisse SC500 would be a weapon, are they running Classic Desert yet!! - how did you happen upon an SC500 engine anyway?
Sc500 ? i still got 3 of them and a spare motor or 2. nothing unusual there you should see the stuff i have stashed away , just awaing to get around to riding.
Ruling from pre60 on is open, So all go on new frames - old specs simple really. means more bikes and specials on the track can only be a good thing.
18.5.02 frames of any manufacture are acceptable within the suspension criteria and considerate of the era.
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Sc500 ? I still got 3 of them and a spare motor or 2.
Oh I know theres a few SC500's around I was just curious how you came across engines by themselves.
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Heres nice one... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RICKMAN-yamaha-XS650-PRE65-METISSE-/180678854694?pt=UK_Motorcycles&hash=item2a114c8826
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Thanks Oppet, not a big fan of the XS 650 though, not sure why, never had much trouble with them back in the day other than the vibration.
The response to this has been good enough for me to include it in a separate expansion program for my race cars.
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Where's Cheapy?
I'm still keen.
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Where's Cheapy?
I'm still keen.
Haha gone back to his land of dreams and bullshit..
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Sadly Mark has had more starts and dreams than Pale Face Adious :-[
Even after his first few posts on here I knew this would be the outcome because sadly for Mark this is how it all ways ends up.