OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: worms on October 11, 2010, 01:57:18 pm
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lets open that can of worms! Currently about 33 possible class's
how many class's are enough at national level, and this does not mean club level!
1st, would we all rather 15- 20 minute motos, Yes if you ask and not the current 3 lap races.
2nd, age group racing for all competitors, yes if you ask!
3rd, do we need to combine a lot of class's, but still score independantly, yes.
4th, are the Nationals about showcasing era's, no way, it's about racing period bikes.
5th, we should only have about 15 class's no more,
Cheers Worms
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Oh Wormy......this should bring the sport savers out of the woodwork. Naturally, I've got a theory but I'm flat out right now doing other stuff so I'll join in a bit later. ;D
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Are people asking for longer races? I haven't heard any real discussion on this (either for or against).
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No - 15-20 minute motos!
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Be interested in the opions here, i was hoping to say PRe 78 racing only at the VMX nats, IF there were enough numbers to come.
but if you guys can come up with the classes "that will be subscribed too" then i can take it to the committee for the 2011 event list......
pps i cant last 4 x 15mins per class.
IF you do longer races thats fine but that would mean less starts/ events - if that was the case then i guess it would even itself out. Could you go to say 8 lap races x 3 ???
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Having not competed for quite some time, I don't know what the consensus it out there. But I personally think that 3 laps is a bit of a giggle and would like to see longer races especially at a National level.
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Whats stopping the age classes being moved a pre 75 all powers ? that way everybody can race it not just as a 250 class ?
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My two bobs worth 5 lap races or 15 minutes
Age group scoring
Combine races if # are short
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being able to last has nothing to do with it, the Nationals should not be watered down from serious racing to accomdate unfit VMXers, thats what CD events are about, I'm trying to point out how the Nationals need to hold value for what we are racing for " a National Title" change is needed for them to have any value, 3 laps races are not a test of man and machine and thats why MA needs to set a standard and say 15 minute plus 1 lap and then work the programe to suit.
Lets have a standard set first and MA need to do this, what do MA value a National title at? for any other division, 3 rnds of 20 min, not 3 laps of whatever track is put-up.
Cheers Worms
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Having not competed for quite some time, I don't know what the consensus it out there. But I personally think that 3 laps is a bit of a giggle and would like to see longer races especially at a National level.
lets see you do 3 or 4 laps of the Lakes at Awaba tent peg,(especially pre 75),that'll take the smile off your dial, ;D ;D, :P
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:D No doubt, but I'm with worms on this one, if it's supposed to be a 'National Championship', a 3 lap race is a bit of a joke.
I'll also admit that longer races suit me better. ;) I'm too slow to do any good in a 3-lapper. It's takes me 3 laps to get warmed up, but by the time I'm warmed up, I'm knackered! :D :D
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yeah,by the time i finish my 3rd or 4th lap,i don't get the checkered flag,mines always the green flag,(for the next race, clear to go ::), :P
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Hi,
yes you are right ,for all you youngsters, the Australian Nationals and State Titles
all Evo: no age group, all powers, 45 mins plus one lap,
all Pre 85: no age group, all powers, 45 mins plus one lap
all Pre 90: no age group, all powers, 45 mins plus one lap
all Pre 95: no age group, all powers, 45 mins plus one lap
with all that modern suspension and handling you should be able to race all day,
cheers
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classic, at least you earn your title! ;D
Cheers Trev
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Hi,
yes you are right ,for all you youngsters, the Australian Nationals and State Titles
all Evo: no age group, all powers, 45 mins plus one lap,
all Pre 85: no age group, all powers, 45 mins plus one lap
all Pre 90: no age group, all powers, 45 mins plus one lap
all Pre 95: no age group, all powers, 45 mins plus one lap
with all that modern suspension and handling you should be able to race all day,
cheers
With that format there'd be no time left to run anything else... good thinkin :)
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being the eternal fence sitter - I will go with the consensus - but does anybody want to bet against me if I say numbers at the Nats will drop considerably if you go to 15-20 minute motos. I don't care about the reasoning behind going there - just think about it. Pre 65 20 minute races.................mmmmmmm Over 55's 20 minute races...............mmmmm
Welcome to try it?
Now talk about opening the can ;D
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Most of those pre 65 bikes wouldnt last 20 minutes running flat out.....either the owner would have a coronary or the bike would!! ;D
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I would just like to see a standard set by MA, they need to make a clear ruling on what is required!
dont care about the old buggers really, as we all have to fall of the perch at some stage, ;D
it's a joke, National titles are being handed out for 3 x 3lap, 2minute lap time, races.
There are too many class's and it waters down the titles.
I will get back in my can soon, but what value do we hold our titles to?
Cheers Worms
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Trev's right on the money with this one... 3 lap races are a joke.
They need to be at least 10 or 15 mins.
Yes there are too many classes, combine the weak ones and score them separately.
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I agree with the O show.
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As the others have said, making races more than 3 laps at national level should be a high priority, especially for pre 78, evo, pre 85. Some people wouldnt even be getting warmed up by then!
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Yes there are too many classes, combine the weak ones and score them separately.
thank transponders for results :P :)
Hard to please everyone all of the time,with class combinations..."I didnt drive xxxx amount of km to race with that lot" ;D
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.... combine the weak ones and score them separately.
Did you see the age racing discussion a few months ago?!
There was a lot of opposition to the idea of age races but combined but scored seperately.
At least when you combine an age race, you know that you're not causing anyone to miss out on a ride.
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.... combine the weak ones and score them separately.
Did you see the age racing discussion a few months ago?!
There was a lot of opposition to the idea of age races but combined but scored seperately.
At least when you combine an age race, you know that you're not causing anyone to miss out on a ride.
Whatever it takes.. the fact remains that there are too many classes.
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I think this wimssical attitude towards the Nationals is a joke, it's not about how many races everybody gets , it's about making sure there is content and merit for every title handed out. first things first, MA has formed a rule for everything except defining what consitutes a race for a National title ( in VMX) so why not set the playing field and then we can work towards how many races every oldfart gets ;D( No pun meant Oldfart).
wow, 3 by 6 minute races has little meaning when overseas oldfarts seem to able to race for 20min races and survive, sure keep short races at a club day, but the current 30 class's for the nationals just makes it weak as piss,
Please no offence to any current holders of titles, you earnt them, but Im sure you see the point, we need a stanard set by MA for all events and not just what will fit a venue and a time frame, then we can work out a way forward for all these class's, remmber it's not a CD event, it's for a National Title
Cheers Worms
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i agree i have lost interest in titles
when they run 3 lap races :o
if you get a bad start or stall or minor drop :'(
you cant make up time in the 3 laps
and with the cost of entries these days its
not value for money ;)
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i agree i have lost interest in titles
when they run 3 lap races :o
if you get a bad start or stall or minor drop :'(
you cant make up time in the 3 laps
and with the cost of entries these days its
not value for money ;)
Yeah the idea of driving interstate and taking a week off work for 3 x 3 lap races doesn't really appeal to me.
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Here's a new idea--split the Nats and there's time to run longer races ,more motos ,and not drop classes.Maybe allow time for new classes [Pre 90] and slow the bleeding of numbers in the older classes. Hang on Ive heard of this before ,it was a proposal submitted last March.
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Maybe if the vintage scene just ran the up to Pre'78 races instead of all that evo and pre '85 junk, everyone could have more and longer races.... ;) (and only 6 meetings per year)
and, the new Retro MX class racing could run events for 78- 81, 82-85 and 86-89 classes and they could have more and longer races, and.........
What's the bet all the meetings would pull bigger numbers.
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Maybe if the vintage scene just ran the up to Pre'78 races instead of all that evo and pre '85 junk, everyone could have more and longer races.... ;)
Aren't they the guys that are content with 3 lap races on those old jackhammers?!
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;D
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ow many class's are enough at national level, and this does not mean club level!
I believe that all classes should be represented at the Nationals in it's current form. The one exception is the almost defunct Pre 1960 class which has never been a success and in reality should be absorbed into the pre 65 class. To allow for all classes to be fitted into the weekend and to allow for the possible reintroduction of capacity age group racing, I'd propose that lesser supported classes be combined and be scored separately. With modern transponder technology this is easily achievable.
Foe example, classes such as the under prescribed pre 65 and pre 70 250 classes, Evo and Pre 85 125 and a number more can not only run together but can produce a degree of parity, thereby presenting a competitive spectacle for onlookers. One problem with the plan is to accommodate the racer who usually races in both combined classes but that will be able to be sorted with some thought. The transponder will be our sports best friend in the future.
would we all rather 15- 20 minute motos, Yes if you ask and not the current 3 lap races.
This is never going to have the perfect answer. Short races (3 lappers) are preferable to enable clubs to get through the program and cater to those of us who are less fit but I personally would like to see 5 lap races for National titles. Perhaps one way of handling it is to have the first two rounds over 3 lap duration and the final round as 5 laps.
age group racing for all competitors, yes if you ask!
I know that a number of folks disagree but I strongly feel that by reintroducing the capacity age group system we'd encourage more riders back into the fold by offering them the opportunity to race against their age peers. This has been bashed around this forum a number of times but I'm absolutely certain that the downturn in entries during the early part of the decade can partly be connected to the removal of capacity age groups. It's been noticeable in my observation that many of those who oppose age groups entered the sport after they were 'dumbed down' and haven't really experienced the system. On the other side of the coin, those who are loudly in favour of age groups have experienced the age group system and understand how it was the one major attraction that other divisions of motorcycle racing didn't offer. It worked extremely well and can work again. Because of the increased number of class races it may be necessary to combine capacity age groups, once again using transponders to score them. Age group classes should only be used in pre '75 and pre '85 125/250/500 to help limit the number of races on the program.
Although the splitting of the Nationals proposal didn't get through this year, I'm fairly sure it'll pass muster next year for possible introduction in 2012 or at the latest 2013. When that happens there will be much more time on both programs to encourage the inclusion of all classes and longer motos. I guess we'll be having this discussion again once that happens.
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Foe example, classes such as the under prescribed pre 65 and pre 70 250 classes, Evo and Pre 85 125 and a number more can not only run together but can produce a degree of parity, thereby presenting a competitive spectacle for onlookers.
FWIW, there were more pre-70 250 entrants than pre-70 500s at this year's Nationals.
I agree with what you're saying in principle, but we also need to be careful not to shoot ourselves in the foot by assuming that certain classes are always going to be well-subscribed or poorly-subscribed.
What happened this year with the Evo & pre-85 125s was great - neither class quite made chamionship status and so they were combined (rather than bumping them into their matching era 250 races, which was looking likely).
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please dont go off track guys, this is about a standard that must be set by MA, what really consitutes a race, then we can work forward, are titles worth having even if they hold such a deminished value.
is the way forward, simply have shorter races to fit a programe, NO, where will we be in ten years.
all title races need a defining requirement set by our controlling body, so it's in their hands.
How are MA defining the value of VMX, we will just shove it all in and you make it fit, well no it wont.
I am pushing to make sure the value of the Nationals are maintained and enhanced for future generations.
someone has got to define it, 3 x 15 min, plus 1 lap, rounds for a National Title, then and only then we can start on class's.
Cheers Worms
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WIW, there were more pre-70 250 entrants than pre-70 500s at this year's Nationals.
I agree with what you're saying in principle, but we also need to be careful not to shoot ourselves in the foot by assuming that certain classes are always going to be well-subscribed or poorly-subscribed.
I knew that Nathan, having being a pre 70 competitor and or entrant since the beginning. I merely used it as an example of classes that could be combined if ever the need arose. I don't get the 'shoot ourselves in the foot' part. Once the club had received the final entries I would assume they'd know which classes were undersubscribed and would then act accordingly.
title races need a defining requirement set by our controlling body, so it's in their hands.
I knew that too Trev but I thought you were asking for ideas? My two rounds of 3 laps and final of 5 laps is an idea that if it was decided to be introduced would have to go through the usual ratification processes.
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David your off subject, fantastic what is happening at your club, but this convo is about defining a stanard to quantify what a National title is in race standards, simple.
your at the coalface within MA, are you not? so lets work towards creating a standard for future racers.
Cheers Worms
sorry firko, yours is an idea with merit, we just need a defining guideline. what shall it be
I'm just trying to get us away from this lap mentallity, it needs to be a set time frame, 15min plus1 so its a std race whearever you compete
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I guess, by making a set requirement at National level we can then work out where we need to head for other changes.
I mean, if we split the Nationals, are we still going to get the same old 3 x 3, 2minute lappers, if so that is F--king boring and a waste, it will undervalue our Titles.
this is our starting point for change, what consitutes a race? at a national level!!!!!!!!
I think we need to be at the 15minute plus 1 lap x 3 rounds. it wont matter where the titles are, thats what you get, a race equal to the Title. It has been watered down due to the number of class's, but we have to set a std requirement first.
Cheers Worms
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I don't get the 'shoot ourselves in the foot' part. Once the club had received the final entries I would assume they'd know which classes were undersubscribed and would then act accordingly.
I thought you were suggesting that those classes be combined permenantly, rather than simply using them as examples of classes that are likely to end up combined at a particular event.
So we're actually in violent agreement.
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your still off track Nathan, what consitutes a race or what value do we place on a national title race. lets start here first.
there nothing at present stopping someone running an event with 3 x 3, 1min lap races, WOW, that would do more harm than combining class's?
Cheers Worms
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My feeling on all this is, pre 75 vmx at club level should be left as it is 3 laps for each class, in the classic scramble club we do offer a 10 Laper race. but at a national level each class should be increased to 5 lap races for pre75 national meetings, but there are classes like pre60 should be combined with pre 65., and l feel that there are classes that should be removed and replaced with more appropriate classes to suit. l also feel that the cut off dates need to be looked at too. l would like MA or the commission put out a questionaire for us riders to submit our feeling about cut off dates. pre 90 to pre 80, l think the younger age group could handle 8 laps per class at a national level.
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it's got to be a time limit, not laps!
we are talking about a National title not retirement home races, you undervalue what we are racing for as soon as you say young or old blokes, its a national Title event so you are going to be the best in the country for that class.
age races for all class's will accomadate the older blokes but dont waterdown a National title race.
Cheers Worms
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I reckon I'd enter a national meeting with 15 minute +1 lap races, longer would be better IMO, and I'm just a fat old bald bloke to boot! This may seem harsh, but no way was I going to stand around for 3 days for a few pissy 3 lap races at Broadford and I only live an hour away. Worms is on the right track.
Cheers,
K
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The Time to complete a 3 lap race is 5 to 6 mins, 15 min races would be about 25 laps. thats too much, sorry we are not racing for sheep stations. Anyway it would be boring to watch races that long, have you ever be to a modern race meeting and their run 15 or 25 min motos , its boring. and beside this vintage pre 75 we are reliving the days as it was 30 to 35 years ago, l say no to motos. so go and race moderns if you want that sort of racing.
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so you have no value to a National title then, it's not about you or me, its a defining requirement that needs to be set for the future of VMX, what worth do we put on a National title, it's got to be a test, it's has to have value or there is no point to it all!
5 to 6 minutes by 3 rnds = 15-18 minutes and your the winner of a National Title, whoopeeeeeee
lets make it 3 rnds of 15min plus 1 lap and your racing for 45-50 minutes for that Title, yeh ha, mate you've earned it!
this would then force the split thats needed to keep our sport alive, i will not travell for 18 minutes of racing, over 2 or 3 days what value is there in that , none.!!!!!!!!!!
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Hi,
Its obvious you dont want to race VMX as it is ,
you should try another form of racing, it sounds like Veterans ( on Modern bikes ) would be something you would like,
cheers
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no it's not that, vmx racing at club level is great, but there is no std put forward from MA regarding what consitutes a race at National level, is that so hard to understand, whatever we do, must have a guidline to say this, not left open to interpitation. where will we be in 10 years and what value do we hold national Titles.
it's not about you or me or the old bloke down the rd, or wheather you think I should go race this or that!
it's about the value we attach to a National Title, and how we value it. so Michael how do you value it?
Cheers Worms
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come on Michael B, put a value to it, what is a National Title and how do you maintain a stanard if there is no guidelines from MA? what should a National title race be in Qld, or NSW, or WA,or VIC, or anywhere for that matter, the same would be a good start
is it simply a case of we will do what we want to, at the moment.
Cheers worms
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Hi,
Having a standard race length dictated by MA for VMX will only cause drama to our already overcrowded program,
allowing the Officials and Organisers the flexability to change the format as the day progresses helps to complete a meeting on time,
As long as I can remember the last rounds, both National and State, have been shortened at the end of the day,to accommodate those who insist on a Protest or a ride in a Helicopter.
cheers
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age specific, class specific.
I only race the pre 75 age classes and want more focus on the capacity / age races. Im not interested in racing young trophy hunters on Dad's bike, just me mates on the same sort of bike around the same age.
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what defines a National Title race is the question! nothing to do with the organisers, how do we value this title.
cheers worms
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Trev..In a perfect world where we're all as fit as Gally, the tracks are all like Green Park and there are unlimited hours in the race day, 15mins+1 lap is a great suggestion. However reality is nothing like the perfect world and not all tracks are like golf courses and not everyone is an elite athlete. This is a sport inhabited by racers who've passed their peak fitness era by a number of years who don't have the inner resolve to train like buggery as they'd had in their glory years. As someone who's run a couple of Nats I'm fairly certain that a lap count is easier to manage from an officials point of view than a timed race.
Having said that I also think that 3 laps probably isn't enough for a National title event. Five laps is a more challenging but it's all down to the lap time duration. It all depends on the track and the circumstances.
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we're getting there Firko,
Cheers worms
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Maybe the answer in timings, might be (based on fastest rider doing between 2min-2.55min (pre75)
up to pre75 (and including) 12 minutes plus 1 lap 7-8 laps
up to pre75 age groups 10minutes plus lap (5-6 laps)
everything else 15 minutes plus a lap
This is only based on the champs all being held on the same venue
I am in the group of getting older daily, no mention of mental capacity and next year i hope to attend my first Australian Championship and yes it should be totally different to a club run and should be at a higher standard, isn't that the thrill and test of the event
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that could work, now we are putting a value to the title, National Champion!!!!!!
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Hi,
Its obvious you dont want to race VMX as it is ,
you should try another form of racing, it sounds like Veterans ( on Modern bikes ) would be something you would like,
cheers
Motocross has always been about rider ability and fitness.. 3 laps is a joke.
I've just come back from England where all the races were 15 or 20 min moto's, there were 500 riders and another 50 reserves wanting to ride. None of them complain about the races being too long.
Maybe you should take up lawn bowls if you can't handle more than 3 laps.
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Maybe the answer in timings, might be (based on fastest rider doing between 2min-2.55min (pre75)
up to pre75 (and including) 12 minutes plus 1 lap 7-8 laps
up to pre75 age groups 10minutes plus lap (5-6 laps)
everything else 15 minutes plus a lap
This is only based on the champs all being held on the same venue
I am in the group of getting older daily, no mention of mental capacity and next year i hope to attend my first Australian Championship and yes it should be totally different to a club run and should be at a higher standard, isn't that the thrill and test of the event
That's on the money.
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Maybe the answer in timings, might be (based on fastest rider doing between 2min-2.55min (pre75)
up to pre75 (and including) 12 minutes plus 1 lap 7-8 laps
up to pre75 age groups 10minutes plus lap (5-6 laps)
everything else 15 minutes plus a lap
Tossas closer to the mark as Johnny O says. There has to be some sort of compromise to allow for the number of classes we have and the varying ages of the participants. It'd be interesting to see what Supersenior thinks, as an over seventy year old rider who rides multiple classes. If the concensus seems to want timed races over a set number of laps, I'd suggest that all of the capacity classes follow a 15 minute+1 moto format but the age group races are presented on a sliding scale say, from a 10 minute+1 moto for the over 50 age groups 12 minute+1 for the 40+ group and maybe 15 minutes for the under 40s.
Unfortunately this bring in the situation where if a bloke wants to ride both his age/capacity class and open capacity class he'd be up for 6 15 minute motos plus whatever other classes he may want to race. A racer with just two bikes could end up competing in 9 x 15 minute motos = 134 minutes of racing which is a lot of track time. A downside of that is that the rider would now only enter the one bike therefore depriving his second choice class of an entry. In the past a good percentage of racers entered two or even three classes but by having longer races he'd most likely leave the other bikes at home. That then might translate into some of those classes losing their championship status due to not enough entries making the grid. Let's look at a hypothetical based on my entry for the '94 Nats where I entered 250, 500 and pre 70 as well as the age capacity classes. That was a total of 15 motos which if they were 15 minutes duration would be 225 minutes of racing. Naturally, you'd have to be super human to race that program so, like I did, I left the 250 on the trailer and only raced my age races on the 440 Maico and pre 70 on the 350, bringing it back to a sensible and manageable 6 motos.
In a nutshell.....the longer the races, the less classes a rider will enter, possibly weakening the dropped classes.
It's not as simple as it initially looks.
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i've seen it happen in modern MX where a track is built to suit 5% of the riders leaving 95% a little unhappy.
that club lost memberships.
the trick i think, is to get a program of events somewhere in the middle to maintain the strength of our sport.
i agree that a national tittle shouldn't be watered down or given out too freely but if it comes at the cost of losing entries then it'd need to be reworked for the following year.
10minute races seems around a good compromise that in my opinion would/could work fairly on our varied ages. the older unfit guy can usually make a 10minute moto while the more fitter guys will always want more but there'd be bums on seats. the 95%ers.
as always, just an idea thats subject to change without notice.
i see this thread as a healthy step in our sports progression. 8)
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My apologies for repeating much of what has already been said... (particularly Vandy and Firko's most recent).
1. There is possibly too much of a good thing. I took three bikes down to Broadford, specifically to avoid spending too much time standing around (which I did a lot of in '09, when I took two bikes). While more/longer races would probably be a good thing, it would almost certainly mean that I'd only take two bikes - meaning that there would be less bikes on the start line.
2. Age races (in addition to the all-in bike age/capacity classes) also provide more chances to ride a particular bike. Again, this removes incentive to bring multiple bikes.
3. Longer races would make back-to-back races completely unpalatable. So, to avoid lynching, the organisers would have to ensure NO back-to-back races (rather than making a solid effort to avoid/minimise them, which is already a big task).
4. Regardless of how good the idealogy is, it must be balanced with pragmatism. I wonder (but do not pretend to know) whether some of the older guys will simply be turned off riding at all, if they perceived the races to be too long/hard?
I mean, we might be able to stand back and say "45 minute races are what they had in the day! This is a true test of man and machine!" - but if it results in three bikes on the grid, then have we moved fowards or backwards?
Maybe the current format has been arrived at by actually appealling to the target market, even though its idealogically impure?
Most of this is rendered moot by SuperSenior's proposal (as others, including SS50, have already pointed out).
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I think 10 or 12 min moto's is a step in the right direction. As vandy said we don't want to scare people off with races too long and those who ride multiple bikes/classes will still be able to do so.
Nathan if the titles are still held over 3 days then riding three bikes is 3 moto's a day.. no problem.
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to keep it simple,
MA says we can not have fixed footpegs (must be folding)
But, MA dont give a definition of what consitutes a race worthy of a National title.
This relates only to a National Title meet, so lets work towards creating a standard for these races.
again this is about creating a stanard for titles accross Australia, IT"S NOT ABOUT YOU
Cheers Trev.
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Bring it on Trev.. we may even be able to attract some international riders out here to the Aussie Titles with longer moto's on a good track similar to what we did going to Farleigh. We tried to talk as many of the poms as we could into coming over for a holiday and racing here!
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2. Age races (in addition to the all-in bike age/capacity classes) also provide more chances to ride a particular bike. Again, this removes incentive to bring multiple bikes.
I totally agree. I know from experience in the past that the class that suffered in the above scenario was the all in capacity class. The majority of 'Joe Average' riders considered the age class more to their liking while the more serious guys would usually ride both*. In those days the age classes had more status than the all in capacity classes anyway.
With the current format of featuring all classes from pre 65 to pre 85 there isn't a lot of room to change things with such a jam packed program. This whole discussion brings to light important facets of the sport that need attention but in reality not much can be done under the current program format.
The points raised in this thread adds more fuel to the Metcher Proposals validity. Split the Nats and most of the points being discussed here can be tried....refuse the proposal and we're pretty much stuck with what we've got now.
* We shouldn't overlook the point that the majority of competitors will never be capable of winning or even placing at the Nats. To them it's the fun of competing and the camaraderie that vintage racing provides that draws them to an event, not the chance of getting another trophy for the pool room mantlepiece. That's the main reason that the age capacity classes were more popular with the majority of racers back in the first era of VMX. To those guys winning a championship is an impossible dream so just competing with blokes of their own age has more relevance than the trophy chase. They still like the concept of racing (as opposed to CD/HBBB style 'fast riding') which gives them a chance to see how their bike and themselves can compete with peers without the emotional need to win which drives the fast guys. I've discussed this with some highly competitive hard racers who are driven by that need to win and they don't understand the 'doing it for fun' mindset at all. Many of them find it a strange concept to race without a chance of getting gold. That's why it's usually unwise to let the quick guys design tracks or organise program formats as they tend to design a track or make the race format more suitable for them and therefore a bit daunting for the less serious. I'm not referring to anyone in particular, just making an observation gleaned from being a competitive footballer (which gave me insight into the competitive spirit)and an uncompetitive racer (which helps me understand the reason people do it for fun).
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Worms, worms, worms - you are starting to sound like Nathan with his pre 90 bash! People can have an opinion different to yours and 15 minute motos don't have to be the definitive answer.
I for a start still think as highly of the 090's etc that have won titles be that 3 laps or 15 mins. It doesn't take a 15 minute moto for me to think that someone is a good rider or a title be valued - and are we coming down to the old adage build an A grade track and A graders will come - build a track for everybody and................... VMX is not modern, not even veterans. We have to cope with "problems" that no other form of motocrss does in that we cover eras and ages to suit. And as Firko has mentioned a significant percentage of our population are out there for a ride - and don't tell me I can't have a ride at the titles and must go to CD either. And also at the end of the day whether it be 3 laps or 15 minutes will I beat Brad - don't think so. So many of us are focused on getting to work on Monday.
I think what I am saying is even before you talk about undermining the value of a title how about looking at apples and apples - really how many serious racers are there here. I worry that you are building a A grade track!
Here you go - maybe - if you are so deadset on longer races - we can have grades - A grade x minutes or laps (because at the end of the day there isn't any difference there either!!), B grade - y laps, C grade etc - z laps - seems to work well in the west!
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I think your missing the point, dont call them National titles then, call them the everyone wins a prize titles, or something.
ok , just keep on keeping on. and, as we all get older we will make the races shorter, first one to the first cnr wins a national title, yipppppeeeeeee
Cheers Worms
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I think sometime we put blinkers on when looking at things. I have already blanked out Sept next yr on our leave roster to attend. Because i've had great fun racing here in the West and chatting, commenting and saying the wrong thing on this Forum. I was able to meet a couple of members of the forum at the 15th Anniversary and had a great time
So in September I'm heading over to have a race in the VMX Australian Championships and have a great time with a great group and fiesty mob of guys and gals
I gave my thoughts on timings of events and have no problem, if the timings are realistic. But be careful that you don't get to the point of very few people turning up due to the fact the time is to long and the track to hard, it's still only VMX and it's still only fun. VMX is for all ages and age bikes
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Worms - I luve this banter - but I think you are missing the point - if we try and use a formula that works for modern motocross (even if it is modified) then I think we are setting ourselves up for a crash - it is a simple fact that a significant proportion of our fraternity cannot, will not and their bikes also cannot handle the abuse you talk about. Maybe the 5% that can should run a Nats titles and the rest of us run support classes?
At the end of the day it won't make a difference to me as I am not at the pointy end - however I am one of the guys that wants to get to work on a Monday - and just because I am not A grade doesn't mean I can't come to a Nats - but if you want to start going 15 + mintue motos then I think lots will take a step back and rethink the committment - It isn't a complaint but I think you are a "sheep station" type person and for me that isn't the VMX community.
Maybe do exactly that - Nats classes 15+ minutes or whatever and then support classes for the rest of us. Again when we had the last Nats championship classes were 5 laps (circa 11 minutes) and the support ran 3? But please don't make rules that will lump us all in together - I worry about the outcome.
If we set our Championships up for those that can handle races the same as when they were kids then a lot just won't go. IMO anyway.
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The track for next year if it is held in Crystal brook ( thats not pirie - firko), will be Natural terran style and NOT a jump fest. my gut feel is it will be 4-5 laps but as a circuit is quite long would still be a happy sub 10 mins. What you guys need to figure out before then is what classes you want to run to fill the program and who you want to leave out ?
They only want to put a program of event together that has 5 or more riders per race or they will be combined or scrubbed.
Keep the wheels going, settle on a format to try and one that will still bring numbers to ride it ( as in only 1 brad or a herbert, or cavell) wont make any event feasable, you need NUMBERS to pay the Bills.
And as far a spectical who we kidding, who more than a few handfuls would pay to come out and watch old blokes race ??? you need to make it as accessable as possible. IM still one for $10 entry per car load - fit in as many as you can ( they will make it up at the canteen...) but it creates atmosphere. Its like a night club its free entry till its half full, and it only gets full if there a people in there, no one stays at an empty club for long !
FWIW - IM not interested in paying $150 to ride around as a support rider to make up the numbers so someone else can win a title. I want to pay the least amount as possible and ride whatever events i feel like and not get cranky if i choose to pull out of an event, right now i would ride with a broken leg if i have paid for race, just because the cost wasted would erk me.
MY worry about trying to make a premier class race, is it will have a feild of 4 and guess what, no club wants to put it on as its a finacial disarter waiting to happen. This a Great discussion, just keep brainstorming and dont get bogged down on defending or criticing any idea just yet..... otherwise it will end up another us V them thread.
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as a wise man once said, just take a step back and let someone else push that barrow mate.
so youve all got the giest of my thoughts, but remember, what value do we place on a national title ;D
Cheers Worms, shall put a lid on it? the can that is,
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HAng on dont stop now keep it going. this needs to be fleshed out properly.
You cant just throw a hand grenade in and run off. you need to get this brainstorming going.... and not just from one fixed angle.
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At CD 7 most of the bikes went and did more than 3 laps and on both loops, which suggests that most are up to 15 minute motos.
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At CD 7 most of the bikes went and did more than 3 laps and on both loops, which suggests that most are up to 15 minute motos.
Good point!
Local motocross in the 70's & 80's was always 20min and sometimes 30min motos, i don't know where people get the idea that 3 laps is normal race. Obviously most people on here never raced motocross.
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ah yes, just enjoying a glass of wine as i look out over the pastures, content the debate continues on behind me. ;)
cheers Worms, I luv you guys! :-*
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I do valve the nationals as a priestage meeting , l did race moto`s back in the 70`s, and it was South Australia Titles in 1974, Acusa Park and l am sure l could race now for 15 mins +1 and l would be very exhausted in doing that, but to get the same result 5 to 8 Laps at a national level is enough at my age, plus l am not interested in juming off one bike onto another, my classes would revolve around pre75 over 300, 4 stroke allpower, over 50`s. that enough, l don`t care anymore about trophies, l don`t need to prove anything.
4th in the Australia Titles, 3rd in the over 40s, its all my memerory thats what counts, no one really cares about my results, l have a box of trophies in my shed collecting dust. the only trophies that l really care about are the one that l won in 1963, 1973, 1974,1975. lets look after what we have got and the nationals need to be improved in areas.
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maybe I'm the only one seeing it this way, MA need to quantify what and how consitutes a "National Title", every event has been run differently, why, because it's a free for all. and by the looks everybody thinks differently, so lets make our governing body decide and set CLEAR guidelines.
are we getting there yet, MA says you must wear a helmet, so we all do, so why not for something as important as a National title.
I agree with you all, i dont agree with the lack of defitnition and clear requirements for a National Title race, or is it simply "that will do", your just a bunch of old blokes, who really cares, well I do!!!!!!!!
Cheers Worms
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[/quote]
Good point!
Local motocross in the 70's & 80's was always 20min and sometimes 30min motos, i don't know where people get the idea that 3 laps is normal race. Obviously most people on here never raced motocross.
[/quote]
Back in the 70, and 80's we were 20 and 30, not 40, 50, 60. no matter what you believe, sorry your body is not the same. That was then this is now, not saying 3 lap races but get things into perspective of those who rode in the era and those that have discovered the pleasure of these bikes, but were not old enough to ride in the era. Get your clubs to put submission to state bodies for the changes to length of races.
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You are lucky that l don`t have anymore to do with making the rules, as l would make period clothing as a rule in vintage motocross, plus l would change the manufacturing cutoff dates to suit the period. I would make changes to classes, over 300, up to 250, scratch races there would be heats, and you would need to qualify to gain a position into the final of the over 300 and 250 scratch championship. l would bring back A,B,C, Classes. and grade all you fellows and some you young throttle crunchers may be embarassed where l would start.
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Good point!
Local motocross in the 70's & 80's was always 20min and sometimes 30min motos, i don't know where people get the idea that 3 laps is normal race. Obviously most people on here never raced motocross.
[/quote]
Back in the 70, and 80's we were 20 and 30, not 40, 50, 60. no matter what you believe, sorry your body is not the same. That was then this is now, not saying 3 lap races but get things into perspective of those who rode in the era and those that have discovered the pleasure of these bikes, but were not old enough to ride in the era. Get your clubs to put submission to state bodies for the changes to length of races.
[/quote]
I'm talking about 10 or 12min motos not 20 or 30.. that is in perspective!
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Whats a scratch race? I know were all getting on a bit,it doesn't have anything to do with a rash or herpes!
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You are lucky that l don`t have anymore to do with making the rules, as l would make period clothing as a rule in vintage motocross, plus l would change the manufacturing cutoff dates to suit the period. I would make changes to classes, over 300, up to 250, scratch races there would be heats, and you would need to qualify to gain a position into the final of the over 300 and 250 scratch championship. l would bring back A,B,C, Classes. and grade all you fellows and some you young throttle crunchers may be embarassed where l would start.
Sounds good. I'm sick of wearing knee braces and the neck brace. That puddin' helmet I have is as safe as a bank. So to the JT helmet that has no lining left. Don't really need those teeth either.
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and Brad has it by the nose ( broken that is)
Cheers Trev, last seen drinking red wine over looking the plantation!
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you are forgeting that those longer races back in the day In the 70s
were on UNGROOMED AND NO PREPERATION TRACKS
rough as :'(
not like we have these days :-*
tossa is spot on ;)
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I'm talking about 10 or 12min motos not 20 or 30.. that is in perspective!
[/quote]
That i do agree too, sorry if misread, or misinterpreted
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maybe I'm the only one seeing it this way, MA need to quantify what and how consitutes a "National Title", every event has been run differently, why, because it's a free for all. and by the looks everybody thinks differently, so lets make our governing body decide and set CLEAR guidelines.
are we getting there yet, MA says you must wear a helmet, so we all do, so why not for something as important as a National title.
I agree with you all, i dont agree with the lack of defitnition and clear requirements for a National Title race, or is it simply "that will do", your just a bunch of old blokes, who really cares, well I do!!!!!!!!
Cheers Worms
Presumably, this allows each year's Nationals to have its own character, rather than being bland, cookie-cutter reruns of lasts year's event at a different track?
Presumably, each venue/host club will have different requirements, and if we demand everything meets a larger set of criteria, then we risk losing those venues/clubs as promoters?
Presumably, the CMX Commission will not approve the Supp Regos for a CMX Nats that specifies (say) two, two lap races to determine the National Championships?
The Australian Rally Championship is a joke for many reasons - but one of them is that all of the events are forced to run in the exact same format. They're as dull as dishwater for the competitors and the spectators, and the organisers are too busy making the event fit the format to actually have time to make it an event that competitors want...
I do understand what you're saying, but I'm just not sure that the solution isn't going to bring more dramas that the 'problem'.
Has anyone won an Aussie CMX Championship without working for it? Has there ever been an undeserving winner due to the format that events have been run under?
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Has anyone won an Aussie CMX Championship without working for it? Has there ever been an undeserving winner due to the format that events have been run under?
In my opinion no. Everyone who's ever won a fully subscribed class at the Nats has had to work damn hard for it. There's no easy way to win a title, no matter how many laps or at what track it's at.
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If the races are longer there may not be as many multiple title winners and someone else will get a shot..
Maybe that's fairer for everyone else.
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how do we all feel about this?
are we all happy with the class's churned out each year/ and the way a precident was set, this by reducing the number of competitors from ten to 6 to consitute a race as was done at broadford. No offence to Vic's please. But in doing so, is there not a continued watering down of our National titles?
so combine the 5 pages above and add a bit of this. What are our titles worth? and what will happen down the track? if you dont have standards accross the board, I dont think any club should be able to change the format , it should be a set requirement to hold that title.
this is my opinion, i will leave it to yours.
Cheers Worms
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I don,t mind either way however if I have to race for 15-20 minutes I would prefer to race my age group, but put the race on and I will turn up and race to any format. I like the idea of 3 or 4 lap races and the final being 7- 10 laps but hanging on to a sidecar for 4 laps at race pace is a real workout for someone over 50
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My take on all of this is, first we have to split the Nat's at Pre 78....very logical in my view. Then you will have time to run age group races and the required laps/time per race will all fall into place....it's quite simple really. I do agree that 2 or 3 lap sprints to decide titles is too short. When you get through all the bullshit the above is what should happen, it's just that some people lose the plot for whatever reason, the shitfight starts and then nothing gets done....ie Col Metchers proposal to split the Nats at pre 78....another year wasted. At the end of the day it's about our sports survival and by spliting the titles you give more people a chance to participate and have a decent ride ie 3X3 lap races plus 2 laps of practice is not good value for anyone, especially if you have travelled a long distance and have 1 bike. If you split it then both era's can showcase their paticular history/era. It's a bit off track but you have to walk before you run. Hope I havent rambled on too much.
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What about ..first moto 6 laps ..that gives you an opportunity to "recover" if you have a first lap bingle..everyone knows how important a good result in the first moto is to the overall finishing...second moto 5 laps ...getting on in the programme and us oldies (yes over 50's) are getting tired ...third moto 4 laps.... These should be for the pre 75 races only...age groups should then only be 4 laps...I raced at a nationals a while back on a (pre 75) 125, 250 and an open class ...then the age groups (in capacities also)...sure made for a long 2 days racing...
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What about ..first moto 6 laps ..that gives you an opportunity to "recover" if you have a first lap bingle..everyone knows how important a good result in the first moto is to the overall finishing...second moto 5 laps ...getting on in the programme and us oldies (yes over 50's) are getting tired ...third moto 4 laps.... These should be for the pre 75 races only
Brilliant in its simplicity. Common sense at work, good one Brian. ;)
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What about ..first moto 6 laps ..that gives you an opportunity to "recover" if you have a first lap bingle..everyone knows how important a good result in the first moto is to the overall finishing...second moto 5 laps ...
A good plan. I should be right to go by the 6th moto. :D
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gentlemen i have a vision!
if we take the current format of 3rnds of say 3 lap races with the 30 odd class's that translates to 90 start grids, over 3 days.
My idea would be to see the titles run 2 rounds of 15 min plus 1 lap,
thus we would have max 60 start grids which you could condense back to a 2 day format.
each title would have a min race time of 30 plus minutes, instead of the 18 min average and at the same time take pressure of the organising club, less starts, more time between starts, easy format. if the comp runs behind time the sec day you reduce back to 12min plus 1 lap format
Secondly we add some value back to what is being raced for, a National Title.
you could even run up to pre78 one day at 12min plus 1 x 2 rounds and then the next day run 2 rounds of the later class's at 15min plus 1 lap,
I'm not saying I'm right, i can just see( after running the Nats) it needs more, than more of the same.
Cheers Worms
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hang on - am I missing something here - lets say 90 start grids at 10 minute total race time (could be less yes) - equals 900 minutes over 3 days - equals 5 hours total racing a day over three days . 60 x 15 minute races also equals 900 minutes over 2 days equals 7 1/2 hours per day.
yes less starts, in between races etc but still same total now over 2 days?
Could it still be done worms?
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yeah because you loose so much time with extra starts, i'm still crunching it, most nationals wind up with about 26 class's in the end, so i do think you could do it.
i will work on it,
ok i thought about it and yes you could!
hang on the only thing to bring it back would be how many class's need qualifing
Cheers worms
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Track design, which will mean the starting grid, should be able to start a race while the currant race is about to finish, start straights need to be longer too. it should work well if its thorought out properly.
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we did that at conondale and it worked fine.
cheers worms
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The '07 nationals (at Coffs Harbour)were up to pre '78 and as all the nationals I have attended are really a three day event. Anybody would think this stuff is rocket science. A split nat's is a given. Pre '78 should also be a no brainer. I remember a couple of bad accidents at Coffs yet we were finished half way through Sunday, which included an all in race at the end. So pre 78, 5 or 6 lap races as it has to be a fair dinkum race but realistic of our age at the same time. 20,30 or 40 min's is just rubbish talk and a waste of a post.
I would like to know if anyone that actually races on here actually trains as well. You need to train and ride a fair bit to race for twenty minutes at some sort of pace.
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Connondale was fine, and l have alway said that, l loved Connondale. its trying to convince the guru in Victoria to listen, and their are certain people that think they know best in clubs and they won`t listen, if l only had 50 acres or more to play with l would design the best vintage race track in Australia, location location play`s an important roll and paddock layout.
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The '07 nationals (at Coffs Harbour)were up to pre '78 and as all the nationals I have attended are really a three day event. Anybody would think this stuff is rocket science. A split nat's is a given. Pre '78 should also be a no brainer. I remember a couple of bad accidents at Coffs yet we were finished half way through Sunday, which included an all in race at the end. So pre 78, 5 or 6 lap races as it has to be a fair dinkum race but realistic of our age at the same time. 20,30 or 40 min's is just rubbish talk and a waste of a post.
I would like to know if anyone that actually races on here actually trains as well. You need to train and ride a fair bit to race for twenty minutes at some sort of pace.
You are absolutely right Brad, I use to train like a bastard, was in my mid-late 20's and was still absolutely knakered at the end of a 10min +1 lap moto at the thumper nats during the 90's
3 laps is just silly, but 5-6 laps for guy's our age and average fitness levels is a realistic.
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if you have the 5 or 6 lap theory, your in that 12 to 15 min time zone anyway, the problem with just saying a number of laps is that no 2 tracks are the same.
all it needs is a definition of what consitutes a race from MA, and seeing they dont know or cant tell us, we need to give them as a group something to work with, taking out the lap theory out of it and making it a time frame takes all the guess work out of it, we all know what to expect, no matter what size/ length track/ wheter it's slow or a fast flowing venue.
090 is right, a 3 day venue is the best, 2 rounds of racing at 15min plus 1 lap is on the money( I think).
I for 1 dont want more of the same,
Cheers Worms
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looks like this thread is dead in the water ???, oh well, looks like i need to place that order for the " I beat a 3 Lapper" shirts ;)
Cheers Worms ( aka head in the sand).
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What did you want out of this Trev?
1:Honest open debate on an interesting subject? or 2:Everyone to agree with you?
The funny thing is, the title of the thread, are there too many class's in VMX was hardly mentioned at all. It's turned into a debate over how long a race should be, something that can't be properly addressed until the Nats is split anyway. For the sake of debate though, I reckon the race length has been well covered...15 minutes+1 =too long. 10-12 minutes+1 more suitable to older bodies on old bikes.
Now, what about those pesky classes that need to go Trev. Let's really open a can of Worms ;D.
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just a positive way forward, opinions about how we value the titles, how we define their worth for past and future events.
I dont mind really what format races, how many rounds we have, how long each race is, it would just take our governing body to clearly say this is whats required to hold that title, it's MA's title and with alot things within VMX there is so many grey areas, like folding footpegs, cross bar pads, cutoff dates, carryover models, period correct items, OEM, what size pants you must wear!. oh well, it may well come down to the first cnr wins oneday.
now class's, either split the comp or run 2 rounds instead of 3, but make the races longer.
tell me why some clubs run pre 85 sidecars but not pre85 solo's, either you reconize it or not?
is that enough for a Friday?
head in the sand worms, get it "sandworms",
Cheers Worms
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I would like to know if anyone that actually races on here actually trains as well. You need to train and ride a fair bit to race for twenty minutes at some sort of pace.
Brad, you seemed to be on the pace for 20 minutes at Farleigh without training... 8)
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oh, we cant have anybody training for a National Title, my god no, that just wouldnt be VMX.
where's that shirt when i need it ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cheers sandworms
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Worms you lost me way back,but he/they must think VMX Nats and all else has value and worth if he's training for them !!
cheers
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I was lost on page one! ;D
if you must train to compete, it must be worth competiting for.
so thus, is why they are called the Nationals,
cheers sandworms ( ive never beaten a 3 lapper yet, but there's still hope, make em do 4,5,6 and with a bit of training)
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I dont mind really what format races, how many rounds we have, how long each race is, it would just take our governing body to clearly say this is whats required to hold that title, it's MA's tittle
oh well, it may well come down to the first cnr wins oneday.
either split the comp or run 2 rounds instead of 3, but make the races longer.
there a touch of contradiction in there Trev.
stop procrastinating and go and order your "beat the three lapper" shirt now.
WARNING!
maths ahead.
hypothetical.
if each race is around10~15 minutes long, i'm estimating a turnaround of races {time of each drop of the gate} of around 20 minutes.
that allows the tailend rider to complete thier race,exit the track and general prep to allow the next race to begin..so with a 20minute turnaround of races on the program. if we start at
9am and finish at 4pm
thats 7hrs and 21 races.
you following so far?
pre~65 no age group racing 3 races in total
pre~70-250 for these 3 events
pre~70-open
pre~75-125 2 age groups for each category 9 races
pre~75-250 combined up to 49yrs in total pre~75-open & then 50 yrs and over
pre~78-125 age groups as above 9 races
pre~78-250 in total
pre~78-open
thats 21 race events on the program.
spread out over 3 days,
scrutineering/practice on the friday,
2 rounds of racing per category,
round 1, saturday
round 2 sunday
thats a big meeting. so when us as organisers can deliver longer races to avoid seeing those 3 lap shirts, then yehah!
a program like this is just an idea and still doesn't allow for many things but i guess we can't please all the people all of the time now can we.
but what if?
MA decide to rule something completely silly like, a race to the first turn wins the trophy?
well, at least we'd have a clear guideline from our governing body as to what it takes to win a tittle.
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I would like to know if anyone that actually races on here actually trains as well. You need to train and ride a fair bit to race for twenty minutes at some sort of pace.
And isn't that how motocross is meant to be... it was never as easy as getting of the lounge and winning a National Title, until 3 lap races were introduced.
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MA are probaly waiting to see what happens for the next two years and then the split will apply, as prevously posted.
You need clubs backing to have your say.Push the club not some forum that has a small % of Nat riders involved in posting. IMO.
cheers
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Three X 3 laps is crap. As it's been stated you only have to have one bungle and that's it for you. As was also pointed out if it took a little more effort to win said title then people would be more inclined to stick to one or two classes.
I don't see any problem if someone actually has to put a little thought into winning an "Australian Title". It shouldn't be a 'gimme'.
Longer (and more) races would also put a bit more emphasis on bike reliability. Something I'd really like to see.
I can hear cries of "Yeah well some guys wont come if it's too tough!". Big deal. Let 'em stay at home and polish their bikes for CD....... ::)
* And whilst they're at it put in some decent jumps and doubles and stuff for everything Evo and later (That's right kids. Like on a proper motocross track...). First person to whine about "the bumpy bits" gets taken to a quiet place and beaten to death. ;)
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great post Vandy, i will order the shirts now! ;D
why push the clubs ???, their MA's Titles, they print a MOM's each year, but just forget the bit about what actually consitutes a race, so the forum is as good as anyware to start, and most people hate it when we talk about the sport and where its heading, and having debates, ow your opinion is too strong, I 'll upset the old peoples home making races longer, old fred takes 10 minutes just to get to the line :'(, hey we will give him the National if he makes the first cnr ;D.
Cheers sandworms, ;D
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sorry firko, where still on "whats a National title and whats it worth"
seems the mood is shifting towards a set requirement to call it a National Title.
I will hold off printing those shirts just yet Vandy, sorry mate ;D
even though they would look good
Cheers worms
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OK...Seeing that we're still on subject....
I think that it's a given that the duration of a race is taken from how long the bloke in last place takes to cover the distance rather than how long the winner takes. Using the 3 lap races held at the 2009 Conondale Nats the following emerged.
Starting with the times for slower classes first, the winner of the over sixties Rob Newman did his 3 laps in 9:12.403
and the last place getter did it in 12:17:529
The over fifties winner Andrew Bailey did his three laps in8:29:118 while the last placegetter did it in 9:52:786
Moving onto the fast guys
Dean Burt won the Evo 500 class with a 3 lap time of 7:37:338 while the last placegetter did it in 10:08:608.
Using those lap times its easily seen that the 10 and 12 minute motos are already in place. As we all know, the Conondale Nats went right to the wire thanks to a serious accident requiring a helicopter taking a big lump out of the program, causing the races to be cut to two laps. With a full program of entries I'd reckon the current 10-12 minute races are about all that can be fitted in right now at Conondale. Other tracks may be different and be more suitable for more laps for the same duration but as it is right now, 10 and 12 minute races is about it.
I agree that in an ideal world, 15 minutes is the go for the younger age classes but until the Metcher Proposal is passed and the Nats is split, we're pretty much stuck with what we've got.
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SIDE CAR CLASSES ARE AS FOLLOWS PRE 68/PRE75/PRE 85 -THERE IS NO EVO OR PRE 78 CARS CLASS IS DIFFERENT TO SOLOS COS WE ARE SPECIAL ;D
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OK...Seeing that we're still on subject....
I think that it's a given that the duration of a race is taken from how long the bloke in last place takes to cover the distance rather than how long the winner takes. Using the 3 lap races held at the 2009 Conondale Nats the following emerged.
Starting with the times for slower classes first, the winner of the over sixties Rob Newman did his 3 laps in 9:12.403
and the last place getter did it in 12:17:529
The over fifties winner Andrew Bailey did his three laps in8:29:118 while the last placegetter did it in 9:52:786
Moving onto the fast guys
Dean Burt won the Evo 500 class with a 3 lap time of 7:37:338 while the last placegetter did it in 10:08:608.
Using those lap times its easily seen that the 10 and 12 minute motos are already in place. As we all know, the Conondale Nats went right to the wire thanks to a serious accident requiring a helicopter taking a big lump out of the program, causing the races to be cut to two laps. With a full program of entries I'd reckon the current 10-12 minute races are about all that can be fitted in right now at Conondale. Other tracks may be different and be more suitable for more laps for the same duration but as it is right now, 10 and 12 minute races is about it.
I agree that in an ideal world, 15 minutes is the go for the younger age classes but until the Metcher Proposal is passed and the Nats is split, we're pretty much stuck with what we've got.
That's a ridiculous post Firko, moto's are never measured by the last place guy to cross the line and never will be. Last place probably spent a minute lying on the ground resting after a fall anyway..
The Nats obviously need to be split to cater for longer moto's.
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I agree that in an ideal world, 15 minutes is the go for the younger age classes but until the Metcher Proposal is passed and the Nats is split, we're pretty much stuck with what we've got.
Just out of interest Firko or anyone else that may know.
Where does it stand with regards to the Metcher proposal at the moment? I believe the feedback to MA was positive from the majority of stakeholders. So what/when is the next step in getting the proposal ratified and included in the MOM's?
Cheers
Shaun
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moto's are never measured by the last place guy to cross the line and never will be.
it's all about fitting longer moto's into the program and you can't start the next race untill the last place guy is off the paddock.
i'm with Firko,
the Metcher proposal has merrit.
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are we there yet ;D
sorry i have to say it's all about what consitutes a race, It dosnt matter how slow ar fast someone is, what is the current defining rule that says "a National title race will be"?
then we can work with Cols proposal,
how can you make worms fit in a can, if you have no idea of how worms youve got?
Ive had great response to the 3 lapper shirts , who else wants one?
cheers sandworms
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moto's are never measured by the last place guy to cross the line and never will be.
it's all about fitting longer moto's into the program and you can't start the next race untill the last place guy is off the paddock.
i'm with Firko,
the Metcher proposal has merrit.
No kidding... that's why the last sentence in my post says 'the nats obviously need to be split to cater for longer motos'
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hat's a ridiculous post Firko, moto's are never measured by the last place guy to cross the line and never will be. Last place probably spent a minute lying on the ground resting after a fall anyway..
The Nats obviously need to be split to cater for longer moto's.
With respect John, a race isn't finished until the last bloke crosses the line...therefore that's the duration of the race. No matter how long the first place bloke takes, the next race can't be started until the last bloke comes home. I'd have thought that was pretty obvious.
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That is obvious Firko, i've done a few races in my time.. but it's not how timed moto's are measured was my point.
It seems to me that the people opposing longer motos don't regularly race the Nationals anyway.. What's with that?
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come on Firko, your kidding right, no event in the world is measured by when the last guy finishes, geez.
we would still be waiting for Bathurst to finish if this was the case! hang on, it could be known as the never ending National title Race ;D,
Cheers Worms
still taking orders on shirts!, new title though, "20 min , 3 lapper was here" well, he will be here soon
the whole point is, no use spliting the nats and you still get 3 lap races, it's a waste of space.( sorry , just my opinion)
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(http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy94/HuskyRacer/2009AustralianChampion304.jpg?t=1287113511)
If Neale Wilson crosses the finish line just in front of Deano at the 15 min mark and the chequered flag comes out it will take him 3.23 sec to get back around to the finish line at best, so the race duration time would be 15 min plus 3.23 min before the track is clear.
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(http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy94/HuskyRacer/2009AustralianChampion304.jpg?t=1287113511)
If Neale Wilson crosses the finish line just in front of Deano at the 15 min mark and the chequered flag comes out it will take him 3.23 sec to get back around to the finish line at best, so the race duration time would be 15 min plus 3.23 min before the track is clear.
You better let MA and the rest of the world know they've been measuring it wrong all these years!
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WHAT-----a chequered flag -is finito-end -go home-finished-completed 75% of distance.
At the completion of 15 min,the leading rider will be displayed the last lap board when he pass's start finish line,which is the last lap. ;D
KISS
cheers
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come on Firko, your kidding right, no event in the world is measured by when the last guy finishes, geez
I'm dreadfully sorry Trev but I'm deadly serious and I'm using your own Conondale Nats as my example. To try and get my point across to you and Johnny O, I fully agree with you that the current race length for the Nats is too short. Read my posts back and you'll see what I wrote.
The point I'm making that seems to be misunderstood is that at the Conondale Nats the duration of the 3 lap races were defined by the amount of time the last bloke took to finish. As a official Trevor you know quite well that you can't start another race until the last bloke is finished. This is a totally different concept to a timed moto where the race is ended when the winner crosses the line. That's fine ....but it's not the way the Conondale Nats was run. I was merely making the point that using those times as an example of how long a race is run and how difficult it'd be fitting longer races into the program.
Lets look at that over 60s program again, but this way from the perspective of a timed moto. Rob Newmans over 60s 3.03 minute lap x 15minutes would end up a 5 lap race, Andrew Baileys Over 50s 2.49 lap time for a 15 minute moto he'd do 6 laps. On the other end of the scale Dean Burts 2.35 minute lap for a 15 minute+1 lap moto he'd do around 7 laps.
If you can follow that you'll see that those 15 minute motos would add a lot of laps and therefore time to the program, something that isn't readily available if the Conandale Nats program is used as an example. I'll repeat my point again..unless the Nats split goes ahead, we're pretty much stuck to what we've got.
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here here -----unless the Nats split goes ahead, we're pretty much stuck to what we've got.
Hey worms !!! put up a poll and see who wants 3 or 5 laps or 15 motos (tradition) at Nationals. 8)
cheers
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Dear firko
would you believe if i said we are on the same planet, just spinning in opposite directions , but the end result will be, we wind up in the same spot ;D,
we need to split the Nats or change it back to 2 rounds with longer races, its not about when the last guy finishes, its about a set requirement for a National title, what ever that may be.
your buddy, pal and probablly the only beachwormer you know. ;D
Cheers Worms,
can we please stop saying laps unless you define what a lap constits of, 2.5klms or 20m for some?
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I'm with Allison 15 miuntes is measured at leading rider not tail end...... consideration has to be taken into account, when you have longer racers there is more of a chance there will be bike/ rider failure.
Why where 3 lap races introduced ?????
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Why where 3 lap races introduced ?????
Probably to fit em all into a pre85 Nationals..5 for Nats is good I reckon.. 8)
ps Steven's was helping me write all this ;D
cheers
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we need to split the Nats or change it back to 2 rounds with longer races, its not about when the last guy finishes, its about a set requirement for a National title, what ever that may be.
I reckon you're making this up as you go Trev..... ;D
Why do you put these posts up Trevor? You ask for suggestions but as soon as they don't match up with yours you go all weird and wobbly on us. All I'm asking is how do you propose to fit 15 minute motos into a full program using the current format and class structure. I'm not criticising a 15 minute format, or the need to go over to a timed system instead of 3 lappers but you've failed to see mine or anyones points except your own and now, after all of this kerfuffle you come back with cutting the number of races down to two? The punters are going to love that by golly! I reckon you're arguing for the sake of arguing. There is no point ot this thread whatsoever unless someone can devise a way of increasing the number of laps while keeping three motos and having the program coming in on time. Guess what.....there ain't a solution until the Nats is split so why bother going on and on. The split ain't gonna happen in the near future so...for the third time I'll repeat....We're stuck with what we've got for the time being. Once the Metcher Proposal is passed we can have a good old hearty discussion but until then...live with it as it is.
'm with Allison 15 miuntes is measured at leading rider not tail end..
Me too, but that's not how it is at the moment Oldfart.
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because I believe we are the ambassadors for the future of the sport, and yes i will stop posting and nobody will think again of it,
we all say change is needed,
Cheers Worms
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you go all weird and wobbly on us.
Youve seen Trev's riding as well, :o
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I understand what you're saying Firko.
I'm in favour of splitting the Nats and combining the weak classes if it'll make way for longer moto's and the sooner the better IMO.
Then the National Titles might be more worthy of their name.
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I'll have to give you that one Graham,
I guess other people can say what i thinking and their visionaires! ::)
Cheers Worms, I'm sure i beat you in 1 race at the Nats Graham?
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If you did I would be quite happy for a rematch at Harrisville next weekend, Was I on my road bike or TT ?
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It was the pre78 open class, the rematch will have to wait till next year, I'm on a 2 day enduro ride to Kilkevian and back, start at my back door and finish there, 540klm round trip of the best single lane forrest trails about. I'm in training for the next 3 lap National races ;D.
have a fat time at harrisville
Cheers Worms
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here here -----unless the Nats split goes ahead, we're pretty much stuck to what we've got.
There is no need for any more posts in this thread.
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Oldfart, Allison and everybody else - sorry Firko is right. Lets just say the leader crosses the line at the 15 minute mark - he gets one lap to go - laps are (for sake of arguing) 3 minutes long - therefore the front runner will cross the line (god willing) 15 minutes + 3 minutes meaning 18 minutes. However if tail end charlie is 2 minutes behind the leader (but not lapped) then he does 2 more minutes before getting one lap to go then has to do the final lap meaning 15 + 2 + 3 = 20 minutes - meaning you cannot start the next race until he finishes - well behind the leader. Yes races are won by first cross the line - but races are finished by last cross the line.
I cannot believe you are even arguing about that - it is a simple fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And whilst I am having my rant - I cant see the point in arguing whether a race is held in laps or minutes - because at the end they both come back to the same thing - 5 lap races take x minutes and x minutes is just that!
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all you guys crack me up ;D ;D, :P
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Oldfart, Allison and everybody else - sorry Firko is right. Lets just say the leader crosses the line at the 15 minute mark - he gets one lap to go - laps are (for sake of arguing) 3 minutes long - therefore the front runner will cross the line (god willing) 15 minutes + 3 minutes meaning 18 minutes. However if tail end charlie is 2 minutes behind the leader (but not lapped) then he does 2 more minutes before getting one lap to go then has to do the final lap meaning 15 + 2 + 3 = 20 minutes - meaning you cannot start the next race until he finishes - well behind the leader. Yes races are won by first cross the line - but races are finished by last cross the line.
I cannot believe you are even arguing about that - it is a simple fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And whilst I am having my rant - I cant see the point in arguing whether a race is held in laps or minutes - because at the end they both come back to the same thing - 5 lap races take x minutes and x minutes is just that!
well dont ask me to be finish/start line again on club day or you'll end up doing one extra lap for the hell of it................... ::)
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I cant see the point in arguing whether a race is held in laps or minutes - because at the end they both come back to the same thing - 5 lap races take x minutes and x minutes is just that!
The point is that if a lap of a particular track takes 1:30, and a lap of another track takes 3:30, then saying "five laps" gives wildly different outcomes depending on which venue you're at.
It's the one point that The Worm has consistantly made sense on.
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I cant see the point in arguing whether a race is held in laps or minutes - because at the end they both come back to the same thing - 5 lap races take x minutes and x minutes is just that!
The point is that if a lap of a particular track takes 1:30, and a lap of another track takes 3:30, then saying "five laps" gives wildly different outcomes depending on which venue you're at.
It's the one point that The Worm has consistantly made sense on.
so the answer to WORMS question is yes there are too many class's in VMX for a Nats ..split them and good nite ;D
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A fascinating thread--most makes sence--none feasible unless the Nats are split ,or classes dropped ,or go to a 4 day Nats.
This forum and various referendums taken ,pit talk ,etc suggest overwhelmingly that the majority favours splitting the Nats.The forum is a great way to air ideas and circulate information ,however that's all it is ,a forum.
If 10% of the time & energy spent on these posts was expended ensuring our clubs & state bodies followed the proceedures [and followed through] ,the main issues would have been resolved months ago.
For your interest the Panpac Masters MX is being run on a time plus 1 lap system so programn can be better managed.Pre78 & earlier 6 min plus 1 lap [about 8-9 mins for average rider] ,8min plus for Evo [approx 10 min],and 10 min plus for Modern [about 12 mins]
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It never ceases to amaze me how there can be ten pages of discussion when the obvious is there and all touch on it but in different ways and argue that others have got it wrong.
Arguing over 15 minutes versus 5 or 6 laps because every track is a different length. True but no track that I have seen is THAT different in length to another. If so, a fifteen minute moto is a 5 lap race at a longer track and 6 laps at another that is shorter. Simple.
So it is painfully obvious that a national event be a minimum 5 to 6 lap race. So it is painfully obvious that the nationals needs to be split and at the pre 78 mark so as to accommodate the longer races and age groups.
The end.
On a side note, it would be good when the split happens so as to hopefully get a more interesting track with a few more obstacles for the later classes.
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I must be on drugs!
Oh well I'm done with it, at least it got you all pissed off, so what are you going to do!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers Worms
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You can start another race while the current race is opportrating, but , and l do mean but, it all comes back to your track design.
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You have to stop drinking during the day Trev. ;D ;)