are there too many class's in VMX

[worms]

to keep it simple,

MA says we can not have fixed footpegs (must be folding)

But, MA dont give a definition of what consitutes a race worthy of a National title.

This relates only to a National Title meet, so lets work towards creating a standard for these races.

again this is about creating a stanard for titles accross Australia, IT"S NOT ABOUT YOU

Cheers Trev.

[JohnnyO]

Bring it on Trev.. we may even be able to attract some international riders out here to the Aussie Titles with longer moto's on a good track similar to what we did going to Farleigh. We tried to talk as many of the poms as we could into coming over for a holiday and racing here!

[firko]

2. Age races (in addition to the all-in bike age/capacity classes) also provide more chances to ride a particular bike. Again, this removes incentive to bring multiple bikes.

I totally agree. I know from experience in the past that the class that suffered in the above scenario was the all in capacity class. The majority of 'Joe Average' riders considered the age class more to their liking while the more serious guys would usually ride both*. In those days the age classes had more status than the all in capacity classes anyway.

With the current format of featuring all classes from pre 65 to pre 85 there isn't a lot of room to change things with such a jam packed program. This whole discussion brings to light important facets of the sport that need attention but in reality not much can be done under the current program format.

The points raised in this thread adds more fuel to the Metcher Proposals validity. Split the Nats and most of the points being discussed here can be tried....refuse the proposal and we're pretty much stuck with what we've got now.

* We shouldn't overlook the point that the majority of competitors will never be capable of winning or even placing at the Nats. To them it's the fun of competing and the camaraderie that vintage racing provides that draws them to an event, not the chance of getting another trophy for the pool room mantlepiece. That's the main reason that the age capacity classes were more popular with the majority of racers back in the first era of VMX. To those guys winning a championship is an impossible dream so just competing with blokes of their own age has more relevance than the trophy chase. They still like the concept of racing (as opposed to CD/HBBB style 'fast riding') which gives them a chance to see how their bike and themselves can compete with peers without the emotional need to win which drives the fast guys. I've discussed this with some highly competitive hard racers who are driven by that need to win and they don't understand the 'doing it for fun' mindset at all. Many of them find it a strange concept to race without a chance of getting gold. That's why it's usually unwise to let the quick guys design tracks or organise program formats as they tend to design a track or make the race format more suitable for them and therefore a bit daunting for the less serious. I'm not referring to anyone in particular, just making an observation gleaned from being a competitive footballer (which gave me insight into the competitive spirit)and an uncompetitive racer (which helps me understand the reason people do it for fun).  
  

[Rossvickicampbell]

Worms, worms, worms - you are starting to sound like Nathan with his pre 90 bash!  People can have an opinion different to yours and 15 minute motos don't have to be the definitive answer.

I for a start still think as highly of the 090's etc that have won titles be that 3 laps or 15 mins.  It doesn't take a 15 minute moto for me to think that someone is a good rider or a title be valued - and are we coming down to the old adage build an A grade track and A graders will come - build a track for everybody and...................  VMX is not modern, not even veterans.  We have to cope with "problems" that no other form of motocrss does in that we cover eras and ages to suit.  And as Firko has mentioned a significant percentage of our population are out there for a ride - and don't tell me I can't have a ride at the titles and must go to CD either.  And also at the end of the day whether it be 3 laps or 15 minutes will I beat Brad - don't think so.  So many of us are focused on getting to work on Monday.

I think what I am saying is even before you talk about undermining the value of a title how about looking at apples and apples - really how many serious racers are there here.  I worry that you are building a A grade track!

Here you go - maybe - if you are so deadset on longer races - we can have grades - A grade x minutes or laps (because at the end of the day there isn't any difference there either!!), B grade - y laps, C grade etc - z laps - seems to work well in the west!

[worms]

I think your missing the point, dont call them National titles then, call them the everyone wins a prize titles, or something.

ok , just keep on keeping on. and, as we all get older we will make the races shorter, first one to the first cnr wins a national title, yipppppeeeeeee

Cheers Worms

[Tossa]

I think sometime we put blinkers on when looking at things.  I have already blanked out Sept next yr on our leave roster to attend.  Because i've had great fun racing here in the West and chatting, commenting and saying the wrong thing on this Forum.  I was able to meet a couple of members of the forum at the 15th Anniversary and had a great time

So in September I'm heading over to have a race in the VMX Australian Championships and have a great time with a great group and fiesty mob of guys and gals

I gave my thoughts on timings of events and have no problem, if the timings are realistic.   But be careful that you don't get to the point of very few people turning up due to the fact the time is to long and the track to hard, it's still only VMX and it's still only fun.  VMX is for all ages and age bikes

[Rossvickicampbell]

Worms - I luve this banter - but I think you are missing the point - if we try and use a formula that works for modern motocross (even if it is modified) then I think we are setting ourselves up for a crash - it is a simple fact that a significant proportion of our fraternity cannot, will not and their bikes also cannot handle the abuse you talk about.  Maybe the 5% that can should run a Nats titles and the rest of us run support classes?

At the end of the day it won't make a difference to me as I am not at the pointy end - however I am one of the guys that wants to get to work on a Monday - and just because I am not A grade doesn't mean I can't come to a Nats - but if you want to start going 15 + mintue motos then I think lots will take a step back and rethink the committment - It isn't a complaint but I think you are a "sheep station" type person and for me that isn't the VMX community.

Maybe do exactly that - Nats classes 15+ minutes or whatever and then support classes for the rest of us.  Again when we had the last Nats championship classes were 5 laps (circa 11 minutes) and the support ran 3?  But please don't make rules that will lump us all in together - I worry about the outcome.

If we set our Championships up for those that can handle races the same as when they were kids then a lot just won't go.  IMO anyway.

[Freakshow]

The track for next year if it is held in Crystal brook ( thats not pirie - firko), will be Natural terran style and NOT a jump fest. my gut feel is it will be 4-5 laps but as a circuit is quite long would still be a happy sub 10 mins.    What you guys need to figure out before then is what classes you want to run to fill the program and who you want to leave out ? 
They only want to put a program of event together that has 5 or more riders per race or they will be combined or scrubbed.

Keep the wheels going, settle on a format to try and one that will still bring numbers to ride it ( as in only 1 brad or a herbert, or cavell) wont make any event feasable, you need NUMBERS to pay the Bills.  

And as far a spectical who we kidding, who more than a few handfuls would pay to come out and watch old blokes race  you need to make it as accessable as possible.  IM still one for $10 entry per car load - fit in as many as you can ( they will make it up at the canteen...) but it creates atmosphere.  Its like a night club its free entry till its half full, and it only gets full if there a people in there, no one stays at an empty club for long !

FWIW - IM not interested in paying $150 to ride around as a support rider to make up the numbers so someone else can win a title.  I want to pay the least amount as possible and ride whatever events i feel like and not get cranky if i choose to pull out of an event, right now i would ride with a broken leg if i have paid for race, just because the cost wasted would erk me.

MY worry about trying to make a premier class race, is it will have a feild of 4 and guess what, no club wants to put it on as its a finacial disarter waiting to happen.  This a Great discussion, just keep brainstorming and dont get bogged down on defending or criticing any idea just yet.....  otherwise it will end up another us V them thread.

[worms]

as a wise man once said, just take a step back and let someone else push that barrow mate.

so youve all got the giest of my thoughts, but remember, what value do we place on a national title

Cheers Worms, shall put a lid on it? the can that is,

[Freakshow]

HAng on dont stop now keep it going. this needs to be fleshed out properly.   

You cant just throw a hand grenade in and run off.  you need to get this brainstorming going.... and not just from one fixed angle.

[oldfart]

At CD 7 most of the bikes went and did more than 3 laps and on both loops, which suggests that most are up to 15 minute motos.

[JohnnyO]

At CD 7 most of the bikes went and did more than 3 laps and on both loops, which suggests that most are up to 15 minute motos.

Good point!
Local motocross in the 70's & 80's was always 20min and sometimes 30min motos, i don't know where people get the idea that 3 laps is normal race. Obviously most people on here never raced motocross.

[worms]

ah yes, just enjoying a glass of wine as i look out over the pastures, content the debate continues on behind me.

cheers Worms, I luv you guys!

[SAABCOMBI]

I do valve the nationals as a priestage meeting , l did race moto`s back in the 70`s, and it was South Australia Titles in 1974, Acusa Park  and l am sure l could race now for 15 mins +1 and l would be very exhausted in doing that, but to get the same result 5 to 8 Laps at a national level is enough at my age, plus l am not interested in juming off one bike onto another, my classes would revolve around pre75 over 300, 4 stroke allpower, over 50`s. that enough, l don`t care anymore about trophies, l don`t need to prove anything.
4th in the Australia Titles, 3rd in the over 40s, its all my memerory thats what counts, no one really cares about my results, l have a box of trophies in my shed collecting dust. the only trophies that l really care about are the one that l won in 1963, 1973, 1974,1975. lets look after what we have got and the nationals need to be improved in areas.

[worms]

maybe I'm the only one seeing it this way, MA need to quantify what and how consitutes a "National Title", every event has been run differently, why, because it's a free for all. and by the looks everybody thinks differently, so lets make our governing body decide and set CLEAR guidelines.

are we getting there yet, MA says you must wear a helmet, so we all do, so why not for something as important as a National title.

I agree with you all,  i dont agree with the lack of defitnition and clear requirements for a National Title race, or is it simply "that will do", your just a bunch of old blokes, who really cares, well I do!!!!!!!!

Cheers Worms