are there too many class's in VMX

[worms]

no it's not that, vmx racing at club level is great, but there is no std put forward from MA regarding what consitutes a race at National level, is that so hard to understand, whatever we do, must have a guidline to say this, not left open to interpitation. where will we be in 10 years and what value do we hold national Titles.

it's not about you or me or the old bloke down the rd, or wheather you think I should go race this or that!
 it's about the value we attach to a National Title, and how we value it. so Michael how do you value it?

Cheers Worms

[worms]

come on Michael B, put a value to it, what is a National Title and how do you maintain a stanard if there is no guidelines from MA? what should a National title race be in Qld, or NSW, or WA,or VIC, or anywhere for that matter, the same would be a good start

is it simply a case of we will do what we want to, at the moment.

Cheers worms

[Bamford#69]

Hi,
Having a standard race length dictated by MA for VMX  will only cause drama to our already overcrowded program,
allowing the Officials and Organisers the flexability to change the format as the day progresses helps to complete a meeting on time,
As long as I can remember the last rounds, both National and State, have  been shortened at the end of the day,to accommodate those who insist on a Protest or a ride in a Helicopter.
cheers

[MXB4ME]

age specific, class specific.
I only race the pre 75 age classes and want more focus on the capacity / age races. Im not interested in racing young trophy hunters on Dad's bike, just me mates on the same sort of bike around the same age.

[worms]

what defines a National Title race is the question! nothing to do with the organisers, how do we value this title.

cheers worms

[firko]

Trev..In a perfect world where we're all as fit as Gally, the tracks are all like Green Park and there are unlimited hours in the race day, 15mins+1 lap is a great suggestion. However reality is nothing like the perfect world and not all tracks are like golf courses and not everyone is an elite athlete. This is a sport inhabited by racers who've passed their peak fitness era by a number of years who don't have the inner resolve to train like buggery as they'd had in their glory years. As someone who's run a couple of Nats I'm fairly certain that a lap count is easier to manage from an officials point of view than a timed race.

Having said that I also think that 3 laps probably isn't enough for a National title event. Five laps is a more challenging but it's all down to the lap time duration. It all depends on the track and the circumstances.

[worms]

we're getting there Firko,

Cheers worms

[Tossa]

Maybe the answer in timings, might be (based on fastest rider doing between 2min-2.55min (pre75)
up to pre75 (and including) 12 minutes plus 1 lap 7-8 laps
up to pre75 age groups 10minutes plus lap (5-6 laps)
everything else 15 minutes plus a lap


This is only based on the champs all being held on the same venue

I am in the group of getting older daily, no mention of mental capacity and next year i hope to attend my first Australian Championship and yes it should be totally different to a club run and should be at a higher standard, isn't that the thrill and test of the event

[worms]

that could work, now we are putting a value to the title, National Champion!!!!!!

[JohnnyO]

Hi,
 Its obvious you dont want to race VMX as it  is ,
you should try another form of racing, it sounds like Veterans ( on Modern bikes ) would be something you would like,
cheers

Motocross has always been about rider ability and fitness.. 3 laps is a joke.
I've just come back from England where all the races were 15 or 20 min moto's, there were 500 riders and another 50 reserves wanting to ride. None of them complain about the races being too long.
Maybe you should take up lawn bowls if you can't handle more than 3 laps.

[JohnnyO]

Maybe the answer in timings, might be (based on fastest rider doing between 2min-2.55min (pre75)
up to pre75 (and including) 12 minutes plus 1 lap 7-8 laps
up to pre75 age groups 10minutes plus lap (5-6 laps)
everything else 15 minutes plus a lap


This is only based on the champs all being held on the same venue

I am in the group of getting older daily, no mention of mental capacity and next year i hope to attend my first Australian Championship and yes it should be totally different to a club run and should be at a higher standard, isn't that the thrill and test of the event

That's on the money.

[firko]

Maybe the answer in timings, might be (based on fastest rider doing between 2min-2.55min (pre75)
up to pre75 (and including) 12 minutes plus 1 lap 7-8 laps
up to pre75 age groups 10minutes plus lap (5-6 laps)
everything else 15 minutes plus a lap

Tossas closer to the mark as Johnny O says. There has to be some sort of compromise to allow for the number of classes we have and the varying ages of the participants. It'd be interesting to see what Supersenior thinks, as an over seventy year old rider who rides multiple classes. If the concensus seems to want timed races over a set number of laps, I'd suggest that all of the capacity classes follow a 15 minute+1 moto format but the age group races are presented on a sliding scale say, from a 10 minute+1 moto for the over 50 age groups 12 minute+1 for the 40+ group and maybe 15 minutes for the under 40s.

Unfortunately this bring in the situation where if a bloke wants to ride both his age/capacity class and open capacity class he'd  be up for 6 15 minute motos plus whatever other classes he may want to race. A racer with just two bikes could end up competing in 9 x 15 minute motos = 134 minutes of racing which is a lot of track time. A downside of that is that the rider would now only enter the one bike therefore depriving his second choice class of an entry. In the past a good percentage of racers entered two or even three classes but by having longer races he'd most likely leave the other bikes at home. That then might translate into some of those classes losing their championship status due to not enough entries making the grid. Let's look at a hypothetical based on my entry for the '94 Nats where I entered 250, 500 and pre 70 as well as the age capacity classes. That was a total of 15 motos which if they were 15 minutes duration would be 225 minutes of racing. Naturally, you'd have to be super human to race that program so, like I did, I left the 250 on the trailer and only raced my age races on the 440 Maico and pre 70 on the 350, bringing it back to a sensible and manageable 6 motos.
In a nutshell.....the longer the races, the less classes a rider will enter, possibly weakening the dropped classes.
It's not as simple as it initially looks.
 

[vandy010]

i've seen it happen in modern MX where a track is built to suit 5% of the riders leaving 95% a little unhappy.
that club lost memberships.
the trick i think, is to get a program of events somewhere in the middle to maintain the strength of our sport.
i agree that a national tittle shouldn't be watered down or given out too freely but if it comes at the cost of losing entries then it'd need to be reworked for the following year.
10minute races seems around a good compromise that in my opinion would/could work fairly on our varied ages. the older unfit guy can usually make a 10minute moto while the more fitter guys will always want more but there'd be bums on seats. the 95%ers.
as always, just an idea thats subject to change without notice.
i see this thread as a healthy step in our sports progression.

[Nathan S]

My apologies for repeating much of what has already been said... (particularly Vandy and Firko's most recent).


1. There is possibly too much of a good thing. I took three bikes down to Broadford, specifically to avoid spending too much time standing around (which I did a lot of in '09, when I took two bikes). While more/longer races would probably be a good thing, it would almost certainly mean that I'd only take two bikes - meaning that there would be less bikes on the start line.

2. Age races (in addition to the all-in bike age/capacity classes) also provide more chances to ride a particular bike. Again, this removes incentive to bring multiple bikes.

3. Longer races would make back-to-back races completely unpalatable. So, to avoid lynching, the organisers would have to ensure NO back-to-back races (rather than making a solid effort to avoid/minimise them, which is already a big task).

4. Regardless of how good the idealogy is, it must be balanced with pragmatism. I wonder (but do not pretend to know) whether some of the older guys will simply be turned off riding at all, if they perceived the races to be too long/hard?
I mean, we might be able to stand back and say "45 minute races are what they had in the day! This is a true test of man and machine!" - but if it results in three bikes on the grid, then have we moved fowards or backwards?
Maybe the current format has been arrived at by actually appealling to the target market, even though its idealogically impure?





Most of this is rendered moot by SuperSenior's proposal (as others, including SS50, have already pointed out).

[JohnnyO]

I think 10 or 12 min moto's is a step in the right direction. As vandy said we don't want to scare people off with races too long and those who ride multiple bikes/classes will still be able to do so.
Nathan if the titles are still held over 3 days then riding three bikes is 3 moto's a day.. no problem.