OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Competition => Topic started by: Nathan S on May 18, 2010, 07:40:47 pm
-
Back-ground: From 2011, the VMX National titles will be split between older era bikes (pre-75 and older, vs Evo and newer). The question is now where to put the pre-78 bikes.
As the MoMs says, the pre-78 class exists to represent the era of 'medium travel' bikes - the bikes that bridge the gap between the short-travel pre-75 bikes and the long travel Evo bikes.
With only three years of eligible bikes, pre-78 will always be a relatively small class.
Col Metcher has submitted a formal proposal to the MA commission, which suggested the split and asked for the pre-78 class to be included with the pre-75 and older bikes. "Everyone" seemed to agree with this, however...
From Col M's post in another thread:
The recommendation by the Commission is the split be at Pre 75.There are valid arguments for this ,but there is a strong counter argument for it to be split at Pre78.It is agreed by both factions that the split is needed, it's a matter of where
.
So what are the arguments for each?
Pre-78 with pre-75 an older bikes:
1. With the Nats split, the Evo/pre-85/pre-90 tracks are likely to be run on modern style tracks. With a maximum of 9" of travel front and rear, the pre-78 bikes (and their riders) are going to find it hard going on these tracks. In contrast, the pre-78s small numbers mean that they will never be able to demand that pre-75 bikes run on tracks that are unsuitable for the short-travel bikes.
2. While some 1977 model bikes have a full 9" of travel front and rear, the majority are well short of that mark - most have suspension travel figures closer to that of a pre-75 bike.
3. The vast majority of pre-78 bikes are based on pre-75 bikes. This means that they are visually and mechanically more closely aligned with the older bikes. Consequently, this means that these bikes are more 'at home' with the older era bikes.
4. Anecdotally, the riders who compete on pre-78 bikes at National level, are far more likely to also compete on pre-75 and older bikes, rather than Evo+ bikes.
5. Previous experience has shown that pre-75 events are not particularly viable, and adding the pre-78 bikes is enough to tip the balance.
Pre-78 with the Evo and newer bikes:
1. The longer travel pre-78 bikes will chop up the track more.
2. The early days of the sport were only about pre-75 and older bikes. Keeping the pre-75 eras seperate from the pre-78 and later bikes is returning to that tradition.
3. Pre-78 bikes will cut up the Narrogin track in WA.
Feel free to add, delete, change or discuss the points on that list!
Please keep it civil!
-
Keep pre-78 bikes where they belong , with the pre-75 bikes.
-
did your club make a submission? Nathan this is now a waste of time.
Cheers Trev
-
Col's post didn't seem to suggest it was a done deal.
Regardless of anything else, the commissioners are tasked with doing what they think is right - and threads such as this can alter their thinking (assuming currently hold views that are different to the majority of punters).
-
Its disappointing to say the least for me. A couple of guys take the initiative to push vmx into the right direction only to have clubs that are asked to put their hand up not agree for the wrong reason. From what I understand the W.A club and another in Vic which also favours the earlier bikes, wants the cut off at pre 75. I would hope that thoughts of doing what is right for vmx as a whole will make them change their stance on this subject, which is at a National event ONLY. It in no way has anything to do with any other meeting that they would run.
Why hasn't there been any correspondence from NSW and Tasmania? Or has there? If those states were in favour of pre78 split, then that would help tip the balance.
Pre 78 NEEDS to be put in with the earlier classes, otherwise both sides will suffer. They will be left at home if thrown in with the later bikes and the earlier classes will need the pre 78 to be a good strong national event. Most (but not all) guys will ride an evo or later bike. Most (but not all) pre 78 riders will ride pre 75 and pre 70.
Another great point made by master croquet is that the strong events post pre 78 are evo, pre 85 and in the not to distant future, pre 90.
In the earlier classes its pre 75, pre 70 AND pre 78. I only go as far back as the Coffs nat's and I reckon it was a comfortable amount of events.
I don't think the guys are a holes or anything. I just think they are looking at each other and saying ''stuff 'em, we are doin' alright'', rather than thinking about vmx as a whole...at a national level.
-
1977 models won`t chop up the tracks, if a corner is slow and stop and start corner yes the corner will be chopped up. but a flowing corner there won`t be a problem.
-
they would run.
Why hasn't there been any correspondence from NSW and Tasmania?
Hey i asked the question on here and at MA about an SA vintage MX committee, still got no traction or interest in letting us make a comment about.
-
wants the cut off at pre 75. I would hope that thoughts of doing what is right for vmx as a whole will make them change their stance on this subject, which is at a National event ONLY. It in no way has anything to do with any other meeting that they would run.
Ditto-National only event.But hey, we are only two. ;D
cheers
-
Col's post didn't seem to suggest it was a done deal.
I think you'll find that it's a done deal. My little birdie tells me that their were more submissions for the split at pre '75 than for pre '78. For the record I think it should be pre '78 but I'm happy with pre '75.
-
Col's post didn't seem to suggest it was a done deal.
I think you'll find that it's a done deal. My little birdie tells me that their were more submissions for the split at pre '75 than for pre '78. For the record I think it should be pre '78 but I'm happy with pre '75.
That wouldn't be the best decision for the sport as I think the idea is to get all the "Nats" riders to both events if they can, I am not a pre 75 rider, I just don't like how they handle but I'd ride a pre '78 so Id go to a pre '78 Nats and then to the later Nats because I love Evo class racing, that puts me at both events and going by the poll most would do the same.
-
I'm in the same boat as E74, i've got pre 78, evo and pre 85 bikes so i'd only go to one National.
-
clarification on a couple of comments - haven't been in the sport that long Nathan but the Nats and major events that I have been to (and certianly some of the polls on here) show that pre 75 could stand on it's own by a long way????
E74 - what poll are you referring to - I thought the poll as to which Nats people would ride was well and truly in favour of pre 75 (78?).
Rossco
-
I'm in the same boat as E74, i've got pre 78, evo and pre 85 bikes so i'd only go to one National.
prime example 8)
-
clarification on a couple of comments - haven't been in the sport that long Nathan but the Nats and major events that I have been to (and certianly some of the polls on here) show that pre 75 could stand on it's own by a long way????
E74 - what poll are you referring to - I thought the poll as to which Nats people would ride was well and truly in favour of pre 75 (78?).
Rossco
The one at the top of the page
The pre-78 Nationals should be included with... the pre-75 Nationals. 13 (81.3%)
-
RossVC,
The Coff Nats in 07 was run as pre-78 and earlier event. It was a well-run event that seemed to avoid most of the politics and bitching that now seems to be inherent with the Nats.
According to Donny Thornton (he used to be on this site as No.13, haven't seen him online in ages), if it had been limited to a pre-75 era, then the event would have run at a financial loss - the extra entries from pre-78 was enough to tip the balance to a modest profit.
Remember that the Nationals are outrageously expensive/difficult to run (compared to a club day), so numbers of riders that would make for a brilliant club day, would also make for a financial disaster of a Nationals.
And everyone should remember that the "Which Nationals would you ride?" poll was asking about a pre-78 vs Evo+ split - so if the split is changed, then the results of that poll are probably misleading.
-
E74 - a completely different poll - which Nats would you ride pre/post showed majority would ride the earlier one (trying to avoid splits here). This is a direct question - the poll above only asks about where the split should be but it seems like you said you would go to both as would most people - not as the earlier poll indicated - but as Nathan has said probably a moot point now the split is different.
Nathan - we have discussed before good attendences by pre75 at the last 2 Nats (pre Broadford sorry) - correct - whether that is enough to successfully run a Nats meet not yet sure but as long as people do not underestimate the popularity of pre 75 - nearly 30 bikes in that era alone at the Tassie and Qld Nats just from WA. Enough at Conondale to require qualifying in some classes.
And as far as costs go - maybe MA should look at some of the fee structure then as well?
Rossco
-
And as far as costs go - maybe MA should look at some of the fee structure then as well?
Absolutely. The Nationals fee structure makes sense in the context of modern MX - with paid riders and transporters and media and all the rest.
We make a fuss about our Nationals (and with god reason!), but we're not in the same league as the moderns, or even historic road racing.
------------
I don't dispute that pre-75 is strong - overall, there's no doubt that it and Evo are our two strongest classes.
However, pre-70 is weak and the older classes are very wobbly. So the strength of the pre-75 class is balanced out by the weakness in the older eras.
The HEAVEN club groups the pre-78 bikes with the older bikes in their race format and 'special events' (ie: Canowindra, Crawford River and Evo Challenge). It works well - the two groups (pre-78 and older vs Evo and newer) are about equal in size.
I'm fairly sure that this split also minimises the overlap of riders across eras - when it comes to the split Nationals, this means the minimum number of riders who are 'forced' into attending both events, or minimum number of riders who will miss out on riding pre-78 because its been grouped into the Evo+ Nationals (that they weren't planning on attending).
-------------
A late observation because I've got time to fill in....
Who has entered both Pre-78 AND Evo/Pre-85 at the last three Nationals?
I can think of only a handful of people - including myself. I entered Evo 125 at Broadford only because my pre-70 bike wasn't ready and the Evo125 class was short on numbers. When the Evo bike was unreliable, it didn't worry me.
Others that I have entered in both eras:
Brad 090, Donny, and Snowy 76.
Young Luke from Tassie? Others?
In any case, its a pretty short list.
-
So, is the split confirmed by the vintage Commision and MA Aust for next year. so what will it be. my feeling towards all this, pre78 must stay with pre 75.
-
What a load!
Pre '75 is for machines with 7" and 4" travel. This includes pre '60, pre '65, pre '70 and pre '75. Long travel machines (over 7 and 4) do not belong in this era.
The split of eras is simply defined by the suspension travel limitations.
-
What a load!
Pre '75 is for machines with 7" and 4" travel. This includes pre '60, pre '65, pre '70 and pre '75. Long travel machines (over 7 and 4) do not belong in this era.
The split of eras is simply defined by the suspension travel limitations.
Yes you are right. That is a load!
Using that logic, it doesn't belong in the later classes either as they have 12'' of travel.
Shit! It needs to be split in to three ::)
-
Hi All,
The commission minutes from the last meeting should be released to the SCBs in the next day or so when they are please make sure that if you have anything to say about them that you put it in writing to your SCB and they in turn will send the comments/suggestions on to MA/Commission This is the ONLY way you will be heard.
Cheers
Fatboy
-
aw gee, i tought we could debate it here and go round in circles with long winded replies and then do nothing except whinge afterwards, that would be heaps more fun ::)
lets start a new thread on how to talk with your club to put in a submission or comment on the way forward, thats what we will do!!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers Trev
-
Hey Trev.
I respect to your experience relating to the nats that were hosted at the Connondale course in 2009 would it be possible to roughly break down the revenue the club collected and what the outcome was:
Just rough , round figures Trev.
As it was run
In your experienced opinion would it have been viable , If it was run with say pre-78 down
In your experienced opinion would it have been viable ,If it was run with say pre-78 down with No sponsor input
I feel this may enlighten some of the people debating the issue in relation to splitting the Nats.
-
Interesting questions Shoey
Part of the equation to consider is that if the events are split then it would fit into a 2 day event (maybe even 1 day if it's only Pre 75) thus reducing a lot of costs, ambulance costs being the main one.
-
cheers for asking Shoey
my opinion,
National events without major sponors are not viable! possible but not viable. your profit comes from sponorship dollars.
To run just pre75 without pre 78 attached would only be viable in WA, so hence the need to run pre78 with pre 75 on the eastern seaboard, I think EVO and pre 85 could run a stand alone event with or without pre 78 but you would need sponorship or you run the risk of running at a loss
approx costs for 2009 Nationals $34 000, total income with approx $10 000 in sponors was $43 500 approx
2 clubs with about $5000 each in returns for an event that took 12 months of planning and a huge team of happy workers, yes they were happy.
I feel race fee's for National Titles will rise to cover the potential short falls from running these events no matter where pre 78 lies, how much they rise will be determined by the sponorship dollars invovled with each event,
Cheers Trev
-
Would love to know the profit or loss the Preston club made from the Broadford nats?....and how much it got propped up by MA or MVIC.....we'll probably never know the truth. :-X
-
Worms,
Does the total include the two clubs doing the catering or was that done by outsiders.?
cheers & thanks
-
As a sponsor the split will be a bit of a dilemma . We now have to double the expense and half the exposure . ;)
Agree- as it makes the sorcing of sponsorship harder for the hosting Classic Nationals club.Competition alright ;D
cheers
-
Thanks Trev.
Great stats.
Members love viability and the understanding that their club stands to gain not only the prestige of running a successful national event but also gain a reasonable monetry return from all the work required to host a national event.
I can fully understand why you guy's had a happy team and an outcome to be very proud of.
Thats the attitude that attracts strong corporate sponsors that benefit our clubs and sport.
This issue the issue of division requires a blinkers off attitude and holistic view.
Significant analysis in respect to this proposed change will be required .
Prior to submissions to the appropriate bodies , has anybody carried out this analysis , if so , lets share the forcast revenues from stand-alone events. The fiscal outcome in terms of the effect on riders is of particular interest. Does the entry cost go up accordingly and do the numbers drop away accordingly or do we have growth and increased financial growth.
Is the change for a particular the purpose , perhaps some one could elaborate more on the issues.
Not just time to run the event and the number of races per day , the tracks chopped up , some real reasons. So what do we as members and riders gain , after all its about us as the riders. Truth be told , obvious conclusion , no riders ,no income ,no events , no clubs.
Let's see some of the work put in that has led us to this conclusion of seperation.
As a group of companies , we are avid supporters of this sport , and i know other groups and companies that are also avid supporters of this sport and we all have a genuine interest in all the points above.
So ............ , some answers , how did we arrive at this point.
Rob Shoemark
-
Shoey - what you mention brings up a quandry. It is a little 6 of one 1/2 dozen of the other. Yes dollar value will have a signficiant impact on whether a club can/can't want to/don't want to run a Nationals but this cannot be a deciding factor in whether the sport is split at a particular level. This is a case of the tail wagging the dog. Yes I agree - will have an impact but is the sport about whether clubs can afford to run the Nats or about giving good value for effort as far as the riders getting what they want. At the end of the day it may make finding the sponsorship dollar harder yes.
Maybe they are mutually exclusive in this case?
-
Fair call Ross
The questions need to be asked and it still needs to be looked and closely .The statistics are available and will tell the true story in respect to viability of running seperate events.
Unfortunatley it comes down to the cold hard dollar and a return on investment .
Its obviously a different case on the West coast based on the enviable strenght of the pre-75 movement.
-
What a load!
Pre '75 is for machines with 7" and 4" travel. This includes pre '60, pre '65, pre '70 and pre '75. Long travel machines (over 7 and 4) do not belong in this era.
The split of eras is simply defined by the suspension travel limitations.
OK, that's a valid point (and thanks for being the only person to make one in favour of the pre-75 split).
Now here's a follow-up question:
Why is that THE defining issue?
Would you support bikes like 1975 model TM250s being allowed to race with the pre-75 bikes as they are still 7&4 bikes (but not carry-over models)?
-
Would you support bikes like 1975 model TM250s being allowed to race with the pre-75 bikes as they are still 7&4 bikes (but not carry-over models)?
Don't see any relevance here. Not allowed so non event.
For some reason the world of mx ended in 1975 in some eyes. A dam shame for vmx as a whole and super frustrating in my eyes. It makes me stereo type the real old boys that can't see past there ever shrinking world, so set in there way.I do see it in my own father. Wouldn't know how to turn a computer on and has issues with technology in general. Still can't work his mobile properly. That is the mind set that I see when an issue like this rears its head. 7 and 4 is a lame reason and thats the best(only) one yet.
Overwhelming majority say 'pre 78 split in poll.
-
Steriotype at your peril Brad.I'm older than your dad & proposed a Pre78 split.I was proud that the last 3 numbers on my phone are 090,
but may have to change if a suitable retraction not forthcoming.There is also the matter of a TP tank you may be begging for someday.
-
Steriotype at your peril Brad.I'm older than your dad & proposed a Pre78 split.I was proud that the last 3 numbers on my phone are 090,
but may have to change if a suitable retraction not forthcoming.There is also the matter of a TP tank you may be begging for someday.
:D
He does say that he's "stereotyping" - so clearly he knows that it doesn't apply to everyone.
-
i'd love to see pre~78 included with the old bikes as it's a great opportunity for the spectator to see the next generation of motorcycles.
possibly something some of them may be able to relate too.
i'd also like to see {if the program allows for it time wise} support races {non-championship} of evo bikes.
to my way of thinking, anything up to and including Evo bikes fit the mould of VMX but i also understand the concept of having a split.
-
At what point is anybody considering the clubs?
Big brother with a stick is not the way forward, if a club chooses to run pre75 down with or without pre78, MA should allow this, if a club wants to run the complete National Titles, great.
The thing is, not all clubs could pull off the titles now with the guidelines set out by MA, it took 2 great clubs the QVMX and SCMC clubs to pull off what happened at Conondale in 2009, no easy feat. But it was the CLUBS and not personal agenda's that did this.
In the past there has been no option for change, you had no choice but to run the event as per the GCR's and MOM's which hinder alot of clubs putting their hands up, Bloody to big to run !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I dont think it's a fight over where pre 78 run, hopefully, the clubs have the option, so that is why it's important for everybody to take this debate back to club level.
Lets make sure MA knows we need flexability with this and not a continuation of you will do this!
make pre 75 a spliting point with Pre 78 a floating mark, with the option of complete era event if a club chooses to put its hand up.
If no Club offers this complete version, MA should help sponsor this event every 3 years, and not just at broadford!
There is NO I in VMX
Cheers Trev,
-
Great word -sustainability
Bad word - split
-
Steriotype at your peril Brad.I'm older than your dad & proposed a Pre78 split.I was proud that the last 3 numbers on my phone are 090,
but may have to change if a suitable retraction not forthcoming.There is also the matter of a TP tank you may be begging for someday.
:D I completely retract that last statement and apologise to you and your family if I have offended them. You are the shining light of vmx Mr senior. I suspect you have a big 'S' on your chest as you take on the bureaucracy with your sharpened pen.
Now about that tank..........
-
You are the shining light of vmx Mr senior.
I know you didn't mean that, but I'll take it anyhow!
:D
-
Here is my input .......by leaving out Pre 78 your limiting most people to a one meet choice being either or as most of us have a pre 78 in our shed. A split will see entry numbers drop ( pre 75 cut off ) and l have vision of entry fees sky rocketing to cover cost.
-
I think it's imperative that the split be at pre '78. At first I didn't really care either way but when I think about the future of the older divisions we have to be honest and admit the pre 60 is dead in the water and unless the many owners of pre 65 bikes decide to return to the sport, that class is a bit ill so pre '78 is needed to add to take up the slack from the less supported classes.
There needs to be a concerted effort to lobby the many owners of pre '65 bikes back into the fold. The interest in these bikes has never been stronger but unfortunately many of the owners opt not to race them and are satisfied to bring them to Classic Dirt and Bonanza style events. Pre '70 has also been lagging in recent years, probably for the same reasons as pre '65 but I'm brightened up by the reports of a number of bikes being built for the class, my own included.
For the whole pre '78 'Classic' era split to succeed we need all of the classes to succeed, not just the well supported pre '75 division. Without pre'65, pre '70, 4 stroke
and even pre 60 all working at their full potential, the pre '78 and older faction will eventually wither on the vine. The split can't be held together with just pre '75 and pre '78, we need more punters building bikes and racing in the older classes.
-
Well said Mark......now about CD7, do you still want me to book that family pass for you and DJ to Bindi's nut farm?...I'm sure you can take Nathan, Walter and Ji as well.....should be a hoot...you can all ride around on a sidecar that Ji's welded up and Nathan can preace the gospel....helaeluyah..VMX brothers and sisters.... ;D
-
I'm only going to Australia Zoo with Firko if Rolf Harris is there too.
-
Consider it done.....we can also get Bultaco Bob!!
-
The suspension travel limitation is the only way to divide the requirements for a nationals.
pre 65, pre70 and pre75 will flourish in their 7 and 4 suspendered machines.
Pre 78, pre 80 (maybe) and pre 85 will also flourish with their equally suspendered requirements.
This was realised a long time ago by the foundation committeee of the VMXWA club. If you restrict the eligible machines to the original vintage concept of 7 and 4 (as per the GCR's) then there is no need to consider the later machines. By considering and allowing the longer travel mahines, you make it easier for people to ride. The easier it is, the more people will go for it, therefore relegating the less suspendered brothers to the shed.
Sure this is based on club level competition, but the fact remains - the success of this club has revolved around this concept that has seen the membership continually grow over the last 15 years to a membership approaching 150.
-
At National level, you can already ride a longer-travel bike.
If your logic was correct, then everyone would be racing pre-85 bikes and nobody would be racing the pre-78 and older bikes - but in reality, the pre-75 class remains the strongest.
Also, the majority of pre-78 bikes have suspension travel that's closer to the pre-75 bikes than the Evo bikes.
-
Bert - I actually prefer my pre 75 bike to my pre 85 bike because that is the easier to ride with this old fart body. Don't forget - with the advent of longer travel suspension tracks were made by design significantly rougher. Regardless I prefer the pre 75 - no matter what is on offer!
Rossco
-
I'm only going to Australia Zoo with Firko if Rolf Harris is there too.
Count me out if that she devil Bindi is on duty, even if it is a chance to throw stones at Rolf Harris. >:( I'd rather discuss titanium brake stays and and Argon pressure philosophy with Ji than venture anywhere near that evil empire. The ghost of Jo Bjelke-Petersen and everything wrong with the world lurks in that godforsaken hell hole. :o
-
Check out the "FAMOUS PEOPLE" thread.
-
that's Joh with an H Mark ;) to some he was an inspiration, lets not be too judgmental as perspectives can and do change throughout our entire life. If you personally 'believe' in something then who is to say what is right and what is wrong other than yourself and your own intuition. I think we need to look at ourselves and the positive changes we can make before we start criticizing those who had/have the courage to act upon their own beliefs and ideals. I wasn't a big Joh fan either but that's not to say I didn't have respect for him. He acted upon his instincts and resisted in the face of adversity. That to me is courage regardless of whether or not I agreed with his decisions. Bindi is just a little kid who is not allowed to be herself for the simple reason others have different expectations of what she should and shouldn't be.This is quite possibly molding her into something she is not and never wanted to be. Let her mature and start making some decisions for herself before we throw her to the lions ;)
-
;D
Lady Florence Bjelke-Petersen's Famous Pumpkin Scones
Chef: Lady Florence Bjelke-Petersen
This recipe is courtesy of the website www.southburnett.net
Degree of difficulty: Low
You need:
1 Tblsp butter
1/2 cup sugar
1/4 teaspoon salt
1 egg
1 cup mashed pumpkin (cold)
2 cups Self raising flour
Method:
Beat together butter, sugar and salt with electric mixer.
Add egg, then pumpkin and stir in the flour.
Turn on to floured board and cut.
Place in tray on top shelf of very hot oven 225-250c for 15-20 minutes.
-
Lighten up a bit Doc, the Bindi thing is only a piss take, nothing personal against the poor manipulated little tyke. It's a joke mate. ::)
Discussing Joh might create a shit storm as I understand that there are a lot of Queenslanders on the forum who probably voted for the old scallywag. I'll let that one go for another time.
-
Gee, where is this thread going what road or track is it taking, this thread is about the split, has it happen yet. which direction are we heading. I need to know, l want to talk about bikes not Bindi or Big John.
-
Lighten up a bit Doc
:D sorry about that chief ;)
-
Bring back Joh and big Russ .....labour is farking this state up big time.
-
My feelings about the split, pre 75 only nationals, and pre 90, pre 85 , 80, 78 nationals
-
My feelings about the split, pre 75 only nationals, and pre 90, pre 85 , 80, 78 nationals
Other than because you prefer pre 75, do you have a real reason for this Dave?
If you voted with your head instead of your heart (stolen from another on this subject), you would come to one rational decision and that is pre78 split.
As been said before and to outline again the reasons pro '78 again are:
Pre 60 is almost dead at national level ( sad)
Pre 65 isn't much better ( ditto)
Pre 70 is dodgy as well (going that way as well)
Pre 75 still doing well on most to all fronts (great!)
To have three sick classes and just the one great class is a worry with regards to numbers for a national event.
Now the other side(the dark side ooooh!)
Evo is very strong and probably is the biggest class
Pre 85 is already close behind and would still be on the incline
Pre 90 is the new kid on the block and will go from strength to strength.
The numbers will be good at worst to great so it will be fine as a stand alone meeting.
We could only hope that the split will be positive and maybe a few old girls will come back into the fray, but there won't be full grids will there?
Pre 78 will help to make a great edition to to early classes to help make sure the meeting is viable
The ONLY reason given so far in this discussion is the 7'' and 4''.
To repeat myself, think logically instead of with your heart.
This was realised a long time ago by the foundation committeee of the VMXWA club. If you restrict the eligible machines to the original vintage concept of 7 and 4 (as per the GCR's) then there is no need to consider the later machines. By considering and allowing the longer travel mahines, you make it easier for people to ride. The easier it is, the more people will go for it, therefore relegating the less suspendered brothers to the shed.
That has some merit. I missed your post until I finished this one. I still stand by this post as we both know this is at National level, not club. Surely pro pre75 guys can swallow pre 78 for one meeting when it arises, once, probably every three or four years?
-
Hey Bert, can you give me an idea of numbers you get to a club day (roughly) out of curiosity. Especially the pre 60 and 65's.
Cheers, Brad.
-
Brad - pre 75 in WA goes from bad (loose term) meetings of around 40 riders to top of the Wazza (Wandering etc) of around 100-110. Better meets somewhere in between around 60-65? But I can't tell you the earlier split. Because we race by Rider grade and not so much eras.
-
So you put everything in to pre 75 ?
-
I can't see me ever riding at a Nationals event, I left my comeback way too late to be anything but a moving chicane ;D but I'm curious as to what others think the reasons are that the older classes are going downhill?
Is it that the relative newcomers to VMX will ride the bikes that they grew up with? That the older bikes are viewed as harder to ride/maintain? Or that the owners of the older bikes (generalisation here) prefer club days and non-competitive riding?
Or all of the above?
What do we need to do to try and get these early bikes back on the track? or is it a done deal?
The main reason I ask is that when I talk to mates who own modern bikes about VMX, some of them don't get that you can have fun on a bike without all the latest technology, given that everyone else you're riding with is on the same style of bike. eg. it's like going to the local go-kart track with your mates. Everyone is driving the same style of kart, and the racing is where the fun is, not whether the kart is the best you can get your hands on.
I can't see how the same mindset can't carry through to VMX?
-
basically Brad yes - each meet has a feature race and sometimes these are over 55;s, Honda Elsinore, Jap 250's, pre 65 etc etc but other than that one in all in based on A, B, C etc.
-
I can't see me ever riding at a Nationals event, I left my comeback way too late to be anything but a moving chicane ;D but I'm curious as to what others think the reasons are that the older classes are going downhill?
The reason for the dwindling numbers in the older classes is that most of the people that grew up racing them are now getting old and not into beating up there body on a race track anymore.
I started racing in the mid 70's to the mid 80's and that's where my interest lies. I've got no intention of ever owning a pre '70 or pre '65 bike and it's the same with most of the guys i know.
-
I started racing in the mid 70's to the mid 80's and that's where my interest lies. I've got no intention of ever owning a pre '70 or pre '65 bike and it's the same with most of the guys i know.
"Ditto" Johnny
-
Is the writing on the wall for the older classes?
I'm sure most of us would like to see Pre60-65 and 70 go from strength to strength with a split of the nationals, with maybe the owners of the bikes coming back to race/ride, or letting others race their bikes and I hope that that would be the case with splitting the nationals.
The Pre78 class is a special class in more ways than alot of people give it credit for. Its the cross over class from what we think is vintage to long travel. Its also the class that riders have as their "oldest" bike and its also the class that riders haved as their "newest" bike, thereby getting people to go to both nationals. Pre78 is the class that 'could' get poeple to buy and race older (pre60-65-70-75) bikes at the nationals because if it is in with the Pre75 nationals the riders might want to have more races. That leaves them buying older bikes, and hopefully building up numbers of the older classes.
Splitting the Nationals should be about how best to future-proofing our sport for building on what is already there by giving more people the opportunity to race in both nationals. It has already been said that some people dont want/have Pre75 and older bikes but do have Pre78 and are willing to race them, so isnt a Pre78 class at the "older bike" nationals the best way to maybe start the guys into the older bike classes?
The Evo-Pre85 and when it happens, Pre90 classes are generally going to be where the new riders for the older bikes will come from, and as alot of these guys dont associate themselves with the pre60-65-70-75 bikes why would they want to go to a nationals and race??
Pre78 is the class that will make them want to be there, and hopefully a flow-on effect will happen with them wanting to race in the older classes.
Pre78, in with Evo-Pre85 and (in time) Pre90 will become the forgotten era and be lost in the future if it has to run with the newer bikes. The riders of Evo and onwards who have pre78 bikes would be less likely to race them at a nationals if the have the choices of long travel Evo, pre85 and at some stage in the future, Pre90. With Pre78 in with those bikes their wouldnt be any link for the more younger/modern rider to want to front up to the older natioanls, and that would be a shame.
The only true place the Pre78 class should run is with the older bikes, not only for the sake of numbers but also for show casing the evolution of motocross bikes.
-
I started racing in the mid 70's to the mid 80's and that's where my interest lies. I've got no intention of ever owning a pre '70 or pre '65 bike and it's the same with most of the guys i know.
This is the veiw I've held for ages as to why the numbers are dwindling and the future direction of VMX as we know it. I firmly believe the interest/numbers in specific era's will follow suit as the older riders retire. I also firmly believe this is the driving force for the 'seemingly' high prices paid for late 70's to mid 80 MX bikes, parts and era accessories we see at present. It seems hard to imagine anyone wanting to race or even own a bike that was built before 'their time'. Sure there are always going to be some exceptions to the rule but on the whole I feel it's kind of a losing battle hoping future generations will continue to hold the same values for the older bikes. It'd be like me wanting to race pre'65 when truth is I know very little about this era, the riders or the machines. We all like to ride the bikes we rode back in the day so doesn't it stand to reason younger racers or enthusiasts coming thru would share the same views? Pre'85 now, Pre'90 on the cards, after that it'll be pre'95 and sooner rather than later pre'2000 will also be embraced as vintage. Even though I spent little time on them back in the day I have 2x pre '70 bikes and a swag of pre'75 for one simple reason, I spent so much time riding in the late 70's and early 80's that now I look for something a little different (older) because basically I'm suffering a burn out on the post '78 models I grew up on. The earlier bikes are much more an unknown quantity and hold a bit more of a challenge for me to piece together and discover the history attached ;) Just my view of course and not everyone will agree but as I stated, most don't/won't consider riding something that doesn't directly relate to their own era hence I see the decline. Pre'78 is sort out there in no mans land simply because they were models that combined both pre'75 and some post '78 designs and the riders of these models in general would head towards Evo and later if a split were made.
-
Splitting the Nationals should be about how best to future-proofing our sport for building on what is already there by giving more people the opportunity to race in both nationals. It has already been said that some people dont want/have Pre75 and older bikes but do have Pre78 and are willing to race them, so isnt a Pre78 class at the "older bike" nationals the best way to maybe start the guys into the older bike classes?
What he said. Spot on.
Noel.
-
Brad, what l have said and felt about the split in the past was made with my head not my heart, and what l have presently quoted, it has been spoken. they have made there discussion . God has spoken. pre 78 will ride with the pre 90`s.
Some of us will will deside to do both nationals and some of us will make a choice, pre 90 to pre 78
Pre 75 to pre 65 nationals.
My feelings are, pre78 should have stayed with the older bikes.
-
Splitting the Nationals should be about how best to future-proofing our sport for building on what is already there by giving more people the opportunity to race in both nationals. It has already been said that some people dont want/have Pre75 and older bikes but do have Pre78 and are willing to race them, so isnt a Pre78 class at the "older bike" nationals the best way to maybe start the guys into the older bike classes?
I couldn't agree more DJ.
I also think that it'd be a good thing if some of the older riders who, for reasons of their own don't want to race any more, could be persuaded to offer their bikes to riders willing to race. I've been doing it on and off for twenty years and even though some of those I've sponsored have abused the gesture, most of the sponsored rider deals have been positive experiences. Now that I don't race any more I'll be offering my bikes to different riders over the next few championship meetings. My main class of interest is pre 70 so I'll be prepping my new Cheney and the old Maico for that class at next years pre 78 Nats (as long as it's on this side of the island). I may possibly prep my Ducati Hindall for pre 65 250 and if that's a positive experience, possibly another pre 65 bike will be built and entered over time. Now, if I can do that and another 10 retirees do the same thing, that could be the difference between a class failing to reach championship standard entry numbers and it's success.
Now all we need is 10 owners of pre 70 and/or pre 65 class bikes willing to do the same thing.
-
You would get that at every race meeting on the west coast if you wanted Mark.
The only futureproofing you need to consider when discussing historic racing is to ensure that you give the riders of these historic machines a reason to compete. Competing with machines of the same suspension travel is a very simple solution. After all, motocross through the 70's and 80's was all to do with the "suspension revolution". This is the reason for the period cut-off concept in the first place. Make 'em happy at the club level and they they carry on riding. Promote this at the club level and you will continue to grow the numbers in their preferred classes.
It is not the people who "relate" to the class of racing that the "future" of the sport relies upon. Futureproofing vintage motocross relies on giving the average Joe motocrosser an enjoyable thrill on relatively cheap low tech machinery - just like the good-ol'-days. He then gets his family involved and also tells his mates to get involved and on it grows. I never rode a 60's pommy 4 stroke till introduced at a come-and-try club day, didn't know they existed, but now I wouldn't ride anything else - because it is just great fun.
What has this got to do with this forum discussion focussed purely at the National level - the pinnacle of the "racing" scene? When the classes are split the opportunities for more rides over the Nationals weekend will mean that more people will be attracted to it. The more people riding in the same classes in the various states means that there are more people that may wish to attend a Nationals dedicated to their particular era of pleasure. A healthy dedicated club scene can only mean an improved attendance at National titles.
-
Competing with machines of the same suspension travel is a very simple solution. After all, motocross through the 70's and 80's was all to do with the "suspension revolution". This is the reason for the period cut-off concept in the first place.
You make it sound like the pre 75's would be racing against the Pre78's
They are different classes and race their own kind acordingly.
WA events sound good and I would like to check one out one day but we're talking about making the Nationals viable for a club to run without C grade support races.
-
pre 78 bikes need to stay with the pre 75 bikes, who ever is making this discission are fools, and have tunnel vision.,
-
GMC, you have said exactly what i was going to say! Thankyou and YES they are separate classes Just because the majority want pre 78 class at the older nationals, it doesnt mean a 77 RM is going to be on the same starting grid as a 1974 TM or a 1968 Triumph. Its common sense. No one is suggesting that the pre 78 bikes will be mixed in with the older classes, their just simply saying at the nats you will have a pre 78 class/race along with the usual pre 75, pre 70 etc
-
pre 78 bikes need to stay with the pre 75 bikes, who ever is making this discission are fools, and have tunnel vision.,
As small a sentence this is Dave , I still have to decipher it. Seeing as you have posted earlier that pre 78 belongs with the later classes I will take it that way.
Unfortunately to the detriment to vmx, there are some that have tunnel vision. I personally think it is due to people such as yourself and even Bert here. You guys can't get your head around the fact that there is more to vintage than pre 75. Again, unfortunately, this part of vmx will never change in the near future at least. Simple FACTS can't seem to get through in this discussion. Its about viability of a NATIONAL event. To make an early year split viable, pre78 should be included as you CANNOT rely on pre 60 and 65 as numbers are down. Why put pre78 in with a later year Nat's when all other classes are healthy or on the increase?
From my side of the screen, all I see is head in the sand mentality and because of this, you miss the whole point of the split .
You guys need to get over your precious pre 75 rant. Its getting really....pre75.
-
It's pretty obvious that everyone on this side of the island wants a pre '78 split. Unfortunately, hardly anyone backed Col Metchers proposal with their own written submissions. On the other hand though, the West Aussies lobbied well for pre '75 and when the commission met to decide the split, the submissions for a pre '75 split were in strong majority and despite two days of heavy discussion, in the end they had to go with the majority, even if the commissioners personally disagreed .
We can whinge and whine all we like but we seriously fuc*ed up. There may still be some hope however. Unless some serious written lobbying isn't soon undertaken to try and have them reverse their decision, the split's going to be at pre '75 and we'll only have ourselves to blame. I'm ashamed of myself for not getting my own submission supporting pre 78 in. I took it for granted that those with stakes in the pre 78 cause, the racers, would do the right thing and send in their ideas. Not being a racer, I sat back thinking that shitloads of submissions and support for Cols presentation would go in and the commissioners would have no choice but make the right decision. How wrong was I? I forgot that this is VMX where there's a lot of smooth forum cybertalkers but very few that'll take the time to go through the correct channels to try and achieve their goals. Arguing the point on a forum amounts to two fifths of FA when it comes to getting your message across.
As the Mr Nike once said.....Just Do It
-
Well there you go. Give myself an uppercut.
The silent majorities laziness (me included) , has let the pre 78's down.
who ever is making this discission are fools, and have tunnel vision.,
And they have gotten their way.
This is the way it seems to happen. The silent majority says nothing assuming either others will do it or at least common sense will prevail.
I must say that Col and Dave had it sorted but didn't expect to be railroaded by a minority with an agenda. When will we learn that common sense has no place in these types of things. I hear there is plenty of sand in WA so keep your heads where it's comfortable.
-
I I hear there is plenty of sand in WA so keep your heads where it's comfortable.
No sand to speak of at VMXWA home track
-
Brad, l wont pre78 to stay with pre75, l don`t wont to see them with the others,
Pre78 classes
pre 75 classes
pre70
pre65
-
The three man commission, or should l say the three musketeers.
-
Brad, I don't believe that you can be critical of the WA Club because they actually voiced an opinion...All Clubs and individuals were given the opportunity to comment...those who did were granted due process and consideration was given to all ideas...those who have had their "heads in the sand" are those who have expressed ideas and opinions on this forum..(where it does not count)...but failed to submit to the Classic Motocross Commission... Don't be critical of those who have the courage to speak up.. :)
-
VMXWA is a pre 75 club, it's members and committee promote pre 75 racing. The way the club is run preserves pre 75 racing which includes pre 70 and pre 65. That's what they do and I presume that is what the proposal reflected. For those who call this short sighted, bad luck, I raced at a pre 75 race day last weekend and there were 70 riders. This happens because they have fostered and cultivated this era of racing. They don't do pre 78 and I'm pretty sure aren't planning to in the future.
If we have had our heads in the sand for promoting our sport successfully for the last fifteen years in Western Australia then I for one am happy to leave it there. Here's an idea, why don't the knockers pull their heads out of their own arse and start the hard work of promoting, running and supporting whatever club is going to see the sport fostered and preserved in the way they would like. All I seem to hear on this forum is a bunch of individuals or small groups who seem to show genuine enjoyment and concern for vintage motocross but either don't know how or don't want to make it happen. By the way there is a group of people in Western Australia that are doing exactly that by having started and affiliated with MWA a pre 85 club and would certainly be happy to have the pre 78 bikes there. How good is that two dedicated VMX clubs covering all eras up to 1985, the future looks great for VMX in Western Australia. The way these clubs work is to preserve eras of racing and thats what they do well.
Whatever your oppinion it's a bit rich to call a club that has been dedicated to this sport for fifteen years short sighted and damaging the future of the sport. I know I'll still be riding pre 75 for years to come, I'm planning for my boy to have his first ride in 2022, the same year I will qualify for the over 55's class.
-
The real issue is that the proposal relates to one meeting/year, and certain clubs have put their own interests above the interests of the competitors who are actually affected by the proposal.
Let's pretend that the pre-78 classes are included with the pre-75 Nationals: How does this hurt VMXWA or its members?
How is it in VMXWA's best interests to have the pre-78 bikes' riders pushed in with the Evo and newer bikes?
Even if/when VMXWA runs another National title meeting, I cannot see how it would cause them ANY inconvenience to cater for a whole three classes of pre-78 bikes - particularly as its clear that the pre-78 riders fit closely into the pre-75 mold.
Its great that VMXWA structures their club, and runs events around a strict pre-75 only philosophy - it obviously works very well for them.
But to force that philosophy onto unwilling pre-78 riders for the Nats IS short-sighted and pointlessly selfish. What did the WA club hope to gain from their proposal?
Edit: As it stands, VMXWA would be highly unlikely to host another National title meeting, due to their unwillingness to cater for the newer era bikes. Similarly, the competitors are currently racing at Nationals with Evo and pre-85 bikes too.
At worst, the pre-78 vs Evo split would be meeting them (more than) half-way, but apparently that's not good enough.
(Sorry for singling out VMXWA, but their members seem to be the most vocal).
-
Hey Mike and Brian.
Not many people would think that the clubs in WA are short sighted , more the other way , Most people i speak with are envious of the structure that has been implemented to allow your pre-75 format to flourish.
-
While I commend the WA clubs and individuals for being so organised in lobbying the commission I really think that they've inadvertantly stuck a pin in their own ballon by supporting the pre '75 option.
I understand that the WAVMX has got along quite well promoting an exclusive pre '75 cause but maybe its the remote location or perhaps it is Brads "head in the sand" that's caused them to conveniently ignore the needs of the rest of Aussie VMX. I'd like them to explain just how not including pre '78 in their submissions is going to help our sport?
On a national basis pre '75 is still going fairly well, way down on the boom times of 15 years ago but still arguably the strongest faction. However, the pre 70, pre 65 and four stroke divisions are currently stagnant and pre 60 is dead and buried at anything above club day level.
To assume that the 'classic' Nats can survive relying on the strength of pre '75 and three sick divisions and one dead division is bordering on stupidity. There is no room for future growth and relying on the blind faith that the pre '75 division will remain strong into the future is indeed "head in sand" stuff.
By adding pre '78 into the classic equation we gain two things. The first is the obvious more entries, taking the load off the pre '75 classes. The second is that it creates a window for future growth by offering a class that offers something to a younger generation racer who cannot relate to the 7"and 4" suspension limitations. The offshoot from their entry in pre '78 being that they may also enter pre 75 to gain the extra ride.
On the other side of the coin, the post classic Nats offers unlimited growth potential due to the evolving upper cutoff limit. This year pre 85, next year pre '90 and pre 95 a few years down the track. Those changing upper limits bring with them a newer, younger rider demographic, ensuring our sports future.
The pre '75 Nats has no option for growth unless some serious culture change occurs and a new generation of racers opt to try the 'short travel' bikes. Including pre '78 allows small window of growth that otherwise wouldn't be there. There also needs to be some serious promotion into reviving pre '65 and pre '70 as the viable classes they once were.
Thankfully all is not lost for a sensible outcome. As one of the commissioners told me "Our comments are not set in concrete and are open for all to comment on. If there's enough comments from the states (in favour of pre '78) we will have no option but to relook at our decision It's now up to those who truly believe in the pre '78 cause to follow Colin Metchers lead and submit sensible and articulate support for a pre '78 split.
-
Wounder if much thought went into what happens when the nationals are run out side of WA, I think the club game enough to run up to pre 75 will have trouble breaking even, running cost viers entry's, they many have to find sponsor's to help with the costs, more pressure on the clubs.
-
The VMX Club of WA has it hard worded into the Constitution that the membership is open to pre '75 bikes only...how else should the Club vote ...against the Constitution?....certainly not.... Last time I rode on a track that had "above 4 /7 " travel bikes competing also..discounting Broadford, Conondale, Coffs Harbour, Tassie... which by the way ...were all hard pack circuits....Home many of the forum members have ridden on a soft surface on a pre 75 bike that also has later travel bikes digging it up also..??? Gets pretty rough pretty quickly...what happens then?...the guys who are riding and aren't ..shall we say in peak fitness.. say...well bugger this !!!...This is too tough for me...won't be back here again...!! Have to put forward a case for what your members have agreed to...
-
...how else should the Club vote ...against the Constitution?....certainly not....
This is a red-herring. The format of the National titles have very little overlap with the club's activities, and absolutely nothing to do with its constitution.
Last time I rode on a track that had "above 4 /7 " travel bikes competing also..discounting Broadford, Conondale, Coffs Harbour, Tassie...
So you're saying that every National title venue in the last four years has been suitable for newer bikes? But you're objecting to culling all but one-era-newer bikes from the Titles that you'd be interested in riding?
I'd also debate that Broadford's mud and loam could really be described as hard-pack.
Home many of the forum members have ridden on a soft surface on a pre 75 bike that also has later travel bikes digging it up also..??? Gets pretty rough pretty quickly...what happens then?...the guys who are riding and aren't ..shall we say in peak fitness.. say...well bugger this !!!...This is too tough for me...won't be back here again...!!
Interesting argument.
Personally, I reckon its the speed of the bikes that chops up tracks, much moreso than the bikes themselves - so comparing the damage done to a track by a bunch of old blokes (on old bikes) with a modern meeting is irrelveant. Put those old blokes on not-quite so old old bikes and you'll see that they do the same amount of damage as they did on old bikes.
Again, those nasty newer bikes have been part of the last four VMX Nats, and haven't chopped up the track to any noticable extent. But getting rid of only two of those post-74 eras off the programme is unacceptable to the WA club?
Have to put forward a case for what your members have agreed to...
This, I agree with - although I'm wondering whether "We're about pre-75" has been confused with "Unless we stop this, then they'll come and take our houses"...
Its all a bit like being afraid of reds under the bed.
-
As Watto states VMXWA has in their constitution only pre 75. This was voted by the members and it is the members who the club represents so naturally they will opt for pre 75 cutoff. One of the main issues and reasons behind this is the fact that longer travel suspension (even up to 78) will cut up the Narrogin track and it is expensive in both dollar and volunteer time to repair, some would argue even impossible to repair the damage. This is from past experience. If this happens to the track it will be even more difficult to get pre 70 and pre 65 out there. If VMXWA ever wanted to run a Nationals pre 75 is the ideal cutoff for their track and membership. I only speak as an individual with a little insight into what VMXWA does, it does not suit everyone I agree, but for individuals on the forum to run down a club for following their constitution and representing their membership because an outcome went in the direction they proposed is a bit pathetic. The club did whatever any other club/individual could have done. I'll never convince the pre 78 fraternity it is the right thing to do, but I did think it worth mentioning that it is considered and not just F#@$ off it's pre 75 only.
-
One of the main issues and reasons behind this is the fact that longer travel suspension (even up to 78) will cut up the Narrogin track ....
Have you ever run pre-78 on that track?
What you've stated directly contradicts what I've experienced.
-
Geez Nathan..that will be why a speedway track gets so rough....those fast bikes....certainly would not be because of the suspension travel.. :o....ride a track that has been used by longer travel bikes on a 4/7 bike and you will certainly notice the difference...then after it is all over....sit behind the tractor or grader and see how much effort it takes to get the track back into good condition....Come and ride over here in the West..a real sand track will sort out the "people with their heads in the sand"...
-
You blocks are getting to soft, a fast flowing track will not cut up as much as a tight stop and start race track., get over it and stop useing that for excuss, if the bikes where pre85 or pre90 and the track was tight l would agree. build your tracks to suit pre 65 models and the rest will follow. In 1965 to 1970 the tracks where fast and flowing.
-
Brian, Mick and anyone else from WA, let's remind you again. This decision has little or nothing to do with what you guys do at Narogin or any other meetings under the WAVMX banner. It's about the splitting of eras for the AUSTRALIAN Nationals, an event for the enjoyment of ALL Australian VMX racers, not just West Aussies..
Your dragging out the old track damage card would have some validity when considering Pre 85 or Evo long travel bikes but to blame pre '78 bikes for damaging tracks so badly as to make it unridable for pre '75 bikes is ludicrous and irrelevent.
The long term survial of the 'Classic' era VMX Nationals is the main issue here, not maintaining some single club constitution. I'd like to hear a theory on how the pre '75 Nats can maintain a viable event with a slipping overall entry roll up. Some damn good reasons have been given for splitting the event at pre '78 but all we've got from you guys is the old track damage phurphy and some irrelevent waffle about constitution. Not good enough fellas. You guys can't see the Nationals forrests past the Narrogin trees.
It ain't over yet buckeroos. I'm convinced that the future of the "old bike" section of our sport has been compromised by this decision and I'll be doing everything within my power to lobby the commission to reverse this detrimental decision. I sincerely hope others display a bit of passion and do the same.
*I in no way blame the commission for this decision. I know that some of the commission privately support the pre '78 split. They had to make a decision based on the number of submissions recieved. That's where the pre 78 faction shot itself in the foot by not backing Col Metchers proposal.
-
Firko it has everything to do with what we do at Narrogin if we want to run a National event. You must be kidding when you say a National event is for the enjoyment of all Australian VMX racers, if it's run in the East you might get a container full of bikes from the west and vice versa. The Pre 78 or pre 75 splits regardless, let's see if the East Coast can manage to get the numbers to run a Nationals, you guys couldn't even manage to get the numbers to get the split you wanted.
-
It sure seems like a lot of unnecessary "brain" damage going on here nothing should be split up why cant the classes that are low on numbers be combined and the classes be awarded accordingly"race with in a race" and why wouldn't you run the Pre 75 classes on the Friday and or Part of the Saturday when the track is at its smoothest then run the newer classes for the remaining days of the weekend "Divided we fall or some class could"
#8
-
These are some of my thoughts. I dont think 75-77 model bikes are going to cut up the track a great deal more than the pre 75 bikes. I think if the pre 78 class is thrown in with the evo/pre85/pre90, that the pre 75 nats will suffer as its allready been proven/suggested by others that pre 65, pre 60 etc are classes that are becomming extinct at a NATS level and you cant jjust reply on pre the pre 75 class, and the the NATS with the newer classes will become 'The main NATs' and the older one will probably just end up being a pre 75 title unless there is some serious guys with pre 70, pre 65, pre 60 bikes that start racing. And lastly, i think that pre 78 class it self may suffer if thrown in with the evo and newer nats and pre 78 will become like pre 60/pre65 is at the moment in the older classes. i might be totally wrong, but its just my feelings on what could happend but who knows.
Can anyone come up with a list of the most common bikes raced in pre 78 at the moment?
-
We all supported Col Metcher format, was his proposal submitted, if it was that is all we need, how many letters does these guy`s want to show common sence. I have been casting my feelings about this to the commission plus MA Australia, fellow members for years, pre 75 is in trouble, most tracks are shit, we need to concentrate on more nature terrain, natural terrain tracks are used at club level meetings and are good enough to be use at national level meetings. Barrabool would have be better than broadford this year. If the track are right, pre78 bikes won`t cut it up anymore than a pre75 bike would.
-
Can anyone come up with a list of the most common bikes raced in pre 78 at the moment?
I can only really speak about the 125s:
77 RM125Bs are easily the most common bike -they typically account for about half the field.
The rest of the field is typically CRs, older RMs and YZs with the occasional odd-ball bike like a CZ125 or Husky 125 to keep everyone on their toes.
Most of these bikes are well shy of having the full 9" of travel - on the grid with the other pre-78 bikes, my old YZ125D (with 250D suspension) looks like an Evo bike.
The 250s and big-bores seem to be mostly about Euro bikes and YZ250/400Ds. The Hondas were rubbish, the suzukis seem too valuable and the Kawis too rare in this era.
-
Geez Nathan..that will be why a speedway track gets so rough....those fast bikes....certainly would not be because of the suspension travel.. :o....ride a track that has been used by longer travel bikes on a 4/7 bike and you will certainly notice the difference...then after it is all over....sit behind the tractor or grader and see how much effort it takes to get the track back into good condition....Come and ride over here in the West..a real sand track will sort out the "people with their heads in the sand"...
Speedway is another red herring - totally different sport, with different riding style, very different bikes and totally different types of track preparation.
I've ridden short travel bikes on tracks that have been 'chopped up' by Evo, pre-85 and modern bikes - at a Vintage meet (even a National level one) the standard of the riders is such that a track that's well prepared does not turn nasty.
At risk of sounding argumentative, I wonder how many WA VMX riders can make the same claim?
Firko it has everything to do with what we do at Narrogin if we want to run a National event.
So what you are saying is "We'll ignore all the reasons For including pre-78 with the older eras, purely because VMXWA might want to run a National at Narrogin in the future"?
-
Mike, this not a you and us situation, it's is for the whole sport. You guys are only looking after your own backyard to the detriment of the sport as a whole. There's a whole lot more to this country and this sport than just Western Australia.
I can't see any more sense in arguing the point on a forum with people who don't see the whole picture. None of you have addressed any of the concerns for the longevity of the 'classic' motocross division that I've raised so I'll raise them with the commission through correct channels.
As I said earlier, this is a long way from settled.
-
All you clever dicks, check out the 1976 cz falta 380 for sale on ebay, look at it in a realistic way, this bike will not destroy a vintage track, it would have know more travel than a 1974 cz that is being raced at meeting through out Australia. pre 78 must stay.
-
On the contrary Firko. The WA model for running a VMX club shows what can happen to "promote" the sport. The club did have a good hard look at the whole picture and realised that to retain the older classes and ensure that they survive is to restrict the machines to the suspension cut-off. The result - healthy pre-75 numbers.
East coast clubs have missed the boat and are now trying to make the split to satisfy a justification to get the numbers required to make it "financially viable".
If you are really serious about the future of the older classes - you'd be out there riding with them! Wasn't there a pre'75 register being set-up in NSW to rally these machines together? Is there a club actively promoting the pre'75 classes in Oz besides WA?
-
Bert you are not on your own, the classic scramble club meetings are just pre 75, and have a large following of pre65 bikes, but like all these fellows that own these machine keep them locked up in sheds and don`t use them, so you tell me how to unlock these people thoughts, to have them on show. and most of these guy just done have one, they have 10 your more. which this stops other people from obtaining these bikes. so the pre 65 class suffers.
-
East coast clubs have missed the boat and are now trying to make the split to satisfy a justification to get the numbers required to make it "financially viable".
Eh? Split = smaller numbers of riders = harder to make it financially viable.
The main point of splitting the Nationals is to ensure that all riders get a decent amount of track time without needing a five day race meet to fit it all in, particulatly with pre-90 looming on the horizon.
It doesn't matter if the other states have "missed the boat" - you can't turn back time and pretend that pre-78, Evo and pre-85 never existed.
What you can do, is play the cards you've got as best you can - at this point in time, that means working out the best possible way to seperate the classes between the two Nationals title meetings.
-
Well the Sandgropers are coming out of the woodwork in support of their club. Shows a strong club. But they shouldn't be blamed for their submission. I believe the clubs in the Eastern states should be to blame for not voicing their opinion. Why blame us when we put in a submission that some didn't like, at least it was brought up at our club meeting discussed and voted on. We supported our club and put one in. Where were all the other submissions and did anyone attend a club meeting and bring this proposal up to see what their club was doing about it.
The WA vintage scene is very strong and with the pre85 club taking it's first step, should become stronger, I'm a member of that as well
Don't blame a strong club for actually answering the question and providing an answer. Blame your own clubs for not worrying about it
-
I congratulate the WA club on their brillant move to have the split for the Nationals at Pre75, when in another 15 to 20yrs I'm sure the 7" and 4" bikes will have such big numbers because none of us are getting any younger but by then will have all the time on our hands to race them. Also with the amount of energy put in by the club to get the split at Pre75 I can see them getting behind it and promoting the youth of today onto Pre60-65-70 and 75 bikes, isnt that already happening??
-
I don't know if you want to use Broadford as a model..but..it is the most recent display of rider willingness to get their bikes out that we can use..
Pre 78 125cc
-
Bloody butter fingers...here is the rest..
don't know if you want to use Broadford as a model..but..it is the most recent display of rider willingness to get their bikes out that we can use..
Pre 78 125cc ..7 entries with only 5 fronting for Race 3
Pre 78 250cc...8 entries with only 6 fronting for Race 3
Pre 78 263 and over 7 entries with 5 fronting for Race 3
These figures are taken from the e-results page
So..what does this show?...either no-one should hang their hat on Pre 78 being the "saviour" to prop up Pre 75 ...or no-one wanted to race at Broadford..
-
It really doesn't matter if you agree with the reasoning behind it or not, but here we go with one last try.
VMXWA is trying to preserve pre 75 "racing", we stick to the 7 and 4 cutoff to encourage pre 70 and pre 65 "racing", we run these classes in our big events and as feature races on some race days. It disappoints me that some previous posters accuse us as being short sighted and damaging the sport in one post and then in others can state that they think pre 65 will become a "display" class. That is what we are trying to prevent. That's my last post on this topic because I don't think it can be said any more clearly than that and I realise that it doesn't matter what is said some short sighted people will always think the we're responsible for the perceived demise of pre 78 racing.
-
For David#46. Good to hear the Classic Scramble club is actively promoting and racing pre'75. I just wonder how your racing days are organised? Whether you race for points leading to trophies, or simply ride for the pleasure and a chance for a race win?
If you are racing for points to achieve a gong then this means that the usual 10% of the riders will be winning the usual 80% of the trophies. This does not promote willing participation from the other 90% of the members who will win nothing, and usually get roosted in the process. Promoting participation through riding for the fun of it only, and grading riders on their ability (not by the capacity of their machines), ensures that riders are happy competing with their peers of similar speed, have a good race without getting carried away, and perhaps a win. Everyone likes to have a win eventually.
This race attitude also allows for machine sharing at a club day. This is how I was introduced to the pleasures of early pommy 4 strokes and R40. Now I'm hooked. Competitors are not concerned at losing points if they lend their machine to a fellow competitor and they get the pleasure of riding something different. The older machines race alongside the "modern" machines. It is only the riders ability that is considered.
Different race meetings have a particular feature race class - these being pre-65, pre'70, Pommy, Euro trash, etc. It is a great reason to bring out the older rarer machines and share the love.
This is how to encourage participation at a club level - based upon the clubs chosen era (7 and 4) and race for no gongs. Strong clubs of their chosen era means that there is a larger pool of riders to attend National titles for that era.
-
I had a very long and what I thought sensible reply to this debate ready to post but unfortunately I hit delete button by mistake and lost the lot. I went then away, had a cup of coffee and fitted the Arces triple clamps to my Cheney, all the time thinking what to say in my revamped reply.
Then I decided that what I'd said earlier makes the most sense. Arguing differing philosophy on a forum is a pointless exercise and achieves nothing other than allowing us to get our points off our chests. The downside is that it often becomes personal and eventually erupts into a shitstorm which achieves nothing but entertain the cyber lurkers,those wankers who post the little smiley face eating popcorn, yet rarely contribute anything sensible or even mildly entertaining.
This isn't at all personal. I've made some good friends in the west and despite what's written elsewhere on this post, I genuinely support your steadfast devotion to the pre '75 ideal. However, I believe that by using your local experience as a guide to your submission, you're overlooking the needs of the sport in other parts of Australia.
This discussion is about one meeting per year, nothing more. It's not an attempt to overthrow your club charter and force you guys to include pre '78 at every meeting on your calendar. On the law of averages the WAVMX may, just maybe, promote a classic Nationals every four years or so, so what would be so disruptive of your system to include a pre '78 class at one meeting every four years?
I think I and the many other pre '78 advocates have argued our point in an articulate way, as have you guys. I can bet that if the commission had made the split at pre '78 you guys would be as bothered as we are and be complaining even louder. As a group we fuc*ed up in not supporting Col Metchers submission. I'm assuming that we all thought the mythical somebody else had also made submissions. I'm one of those people so I'm as guilty as everyone else. Luckily, all is not lost and the decision can be overturned if the pre '78 supporters are passionate enough to offer submissions based on Cols template.
The thing that worries me however is that if the commission is convinced to change their decision, what reaction will come from the west? I sincerely hope it doesn't evolve into yet another lengthy debate.
-
Then I decided that what I'd said earlier makes the most sense. Arguing differing philosophy on a forum is a pointless exercise and achieves nothing other than allowing us to get our points off our chests. The downside is that it often becomes personal and eventually erupts into a shitstorm which achieves nothing but entertain the cyber lurkers,those wankers who post the little smiley face eating popcorn, yet rarely contribute anything sensible or even mildly entertaining.
Very well said. I am not sure whether it was the triple clamps or the coffee or both, but the new Firko is so much more mellow than the old one…
Perhaps we should all hit the delete button on our posts, go to the shed for some fettling, and then comeback and share our rekindled wisdom. I for one will give it a go [which should make Ji happy ;)].
Well done Mr Firkin, very well done!
-
those wankers who post the little smiley face eating popcorn
:o I lay claim to being the original and most proficient poster of popcorn munching emoticons. Now you've really upset me Fiko! Is nothing sacred anymore and just who are these copycat scoundrels!(http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/images/smilies/daveg.gif)
another senseless or even mildly entertaining post by yours truly ;D
-
Be careful Doc,
Don't upset 'Fiko'. You never know what will happen…
-
I could never be upset with you Doc. ;) I should have written "those wankers who post the little smiley face eating popcorn with the exception of Doc".
-
Gents
I hesitate to enter the foray. I don't race anymore for numerous reasons, mostly related to $$, distance & chronic health issues, but still attend VMX events when I can.
But having followed the thread it seems to me there are some blind spots here, some of the things being said beggar belief, & the WA guys are being treated somewhat unfairly - eg slating them for putting in a submission & talk of having head in the sand & not thinking of the future of the whole sport.
There are two cogent logical arguments here, which unfortunately are mutually exclusive - they have irreconcilable differences.
1. WA guys are saying they're protecting the future of the older classes by keeping to 4" travel. That sounds to me like concern for the future of the sport. Personally I don't know how anybody can argue that 9" travel bikes aren't going to cut up the track more & are therefore likely (but not necessarily guaranteed) to turn many away from turning up for the earlier classes. To deny that 9" travel bikes aren't going to cut the track up more is head in the sand stuff in my view. What happened to all the tracks back in the day when we went to 6" travel? And again to 9" then 12" etc? What was the big bunfight over when Vic started introducing later (post75) classes way back in the 90's?
And if the proof of the pudding is in the eating, WAVMX have a lot of runs on the board with the success of how they're doing it.
Theirs is a cogent logical argument & nobody can guarantee that the inclusion of pre78 won't diminish those older classes at national level
2. Others are saying that the inclusion of pre78 will bring in more younger riders to the sport & therefore make the sport more viable for the future. That is also a cogent logical argument. Nobody can guarantee it will happen that way but it is likely.
FWIW I favour the inclusion of pre78 w pre75, but I have to admit that WA has a good point
Obviously the powers that be will have to make a decision in favour of one over the other. Maybe it will be a judgement over which is most likely to occur, & who knows the answer to that? Perhaps it will have to be on a suck-it-&-see basis after all appropriate submissions have been considered.
As Mark says, just get the submissions in. Then let the umpire decide. Dave T & co have a lot of nous
One final question: if the commission decides to include pre78 w pre75, will a club be 'forced' into including pre78 if they want to run the Nats, or will it still be at their discretion?
-
First of all I would like to commend WAVMX for what they do. Nobody including me has ragged you guys for being pro 75. Good luck to you and you know it is working for you. Good stuff.
The only problem with all this is you guys have your club ways stuck in your head and simply will not accept that National level is any different. That is where my head in the sand call comes from. Having said that, I will be writing my own submission as that is the only real course of action.Not whinging here.
Having the option of holding a nationals up to pre 75 or pre 78 seems a logical solution as well.
A couple of other things.
I reckon I can cut the track up just as much on a pre75 as a pre 78.
I think long travel bikes cutting a track up more than short travel is a myth. The more bikes on a track, the more it chops up. The more you are on the gas, the more it chops up.
Moderns chop up tracks big time.Is it suspension or the four stroke factor? It is more the fact that they get heaps more riders attending AND they are on the gas more than us old farts.
I would also like to know numbers of pre 65 and 60 in the WA club days. From what I here there ain't too many(riding, not members). The guys who own them are getting too old. That is THE main reason they aren't on the start line.
-
Brad, I will get some numbers for you about the amount of pre 65 bikes that regularly front our starting lines...you may well be suprised...I don't have the figures with me here (at work)...but suffice to say it will be (at least) double the amount that fronted to Broadford..As far as a future Nats on the West coast...I believe it would be unlikely...given the "constitution"...
-
Just to help so we know what we are discussing
http://www.ma.org.au/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/Reports___Minutes/2010/Commission_Meetings/80010578%20CMX%20Minutes%208%20%26%209%20May%2010.pdf
Note 2 year trial
Cheers
Noel
-
Bloody butter fingers...here is the rest..
don't know if you want to use Broadford as a model..but..it is the most recent display of rider willingness to get their bikes out that we can use..
Pre 78 125cc ..7 entries with only 5 fronting for Race 3
Pre 78 250cc...8 entries with only 6 fronting for Race 3
Pre 78 263 and over 7 entries with 5 fronting for Race 3
These figures are taken from the e-results page
So..what does this show?...either no-one should hang their hat on Pre 78 being the "saviour" to prop up Pre 75 ...or no-one wanted to race at Broadford..
Those figures are both incorrect and misleading - the three classes all had at least 10 entries, with 'too many' riders electing to avoid the slop and sit out their races, or breaking their bikes over the weekend (or sometimes missing their races because they were too busy socialising, hey Donny!).
As you alluded, the overall turn-out for Broadford was underwhelming - if you're going to judge the health of any class based on entries at Broadford, then its clearly time to turn out the lights on ALL of the pre-70 classes, as none of them surpassed the pre-78 125 class for entry numbers... (Don't worry, I'll join in the screaming if anyone seriously suggests that!).
Or, we could blindly accept your argument, and then question whether a total of 16 bikes is ever going to damage a track to a noticable degree...
The track arguments are all a bit of smoke and mirrors for the purpose of this discussion, as it will only be an issue IF all of the following occurs all at the same time:
1. The assertions about pre-78 bikes chewing up the track are correct AND
2. The WA Club hosts another National title meeting AND
3. The WA club holds that National title meeting at Narrogin AND
4. Significant numbers of pre-78 bikes turn up.
Is Narrogin WA's only candidate track? Is it really going to be harmed by a couple of dozen pre-78 bikes, on a weekend when many thousands of laps will be completed?
The attitude shown toward pre-78 bikes is a bit scary, really - personally, I'd be a lot more comfortable with the opinions expressed if they were backed up with some experience with pre-78 VMX bikes (and their riders), and if they were willing to acknowledge the point of view of those that have the experience...
I also feel the need to point out that the vast majority of pre-78 riders (at National level) also ride pre-75 and older, while very few of them ride Evo and newer.
This fact alone tells the story of where the pre-78 bikes belong.
-
Just to help so we know what we are discussing
http://www.ma.org.au/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/Reports___Minutes/2010/Commission_Meetings/80010578%20CMX%20Minutes%208%20%26%209%20May%2010.pdf
Note 2 year trial
Cheers
Noel
Thanks Col for all your hard work and time in your applications to the commission on the future of Classic Motocross in Australia :-*
-
I have to agree with Brad about WA keeping to Pre75 for their club rides, I think its great. Preserving an era of motocross without faulter is very important to our sport.
I also think that what JC says about how the arguments/debates are both correct, but are all only speculations on how to keep the older classes alive. Both parties may never agree, but both are right.
I ride/race bikes in Pre75-78-Evo and used to race in Pre85. With that said, This is how I started racing; firstly on an Evo bike, and then I went to Pre85. I then started to race a pre78 bike and now have a Pre75 bike.
I believe that alot of riders have probably started racing this way, getting a bike, and then wanting to try other classes, so in my case I have slowly started to move back in the years rather than forwards and that is what is needed to keep older classes going. So maybe that is what WA is thinking, but, if I didnt have the pre78 bike as the 'middle ground' bike I wonder if I would have a pre75 bike now!!
As a 'club' WA has a great format from what I can see, but it is a 'club' format not an Australian National Titles format, there is a difference.
This isn't at all personal. I've made some good friends in the west and despite what's written elsewhere on this post, I genuinely support your steadfast devotion to the pre '75 ideal. However, I believe that by using your local experience as a guide to your submission, you're overlooking the needs of the sport in other parts of Australia.
This discussion is about one meeting per year, nothing more. It's not an attempt to overthrow your club charter and force you guys to include pre '78 at every meeting on your calendar. On the law of averages the WAVMX may, just maybe, promote a classic Nationals every four years or so, so what would be so disruptive of your system to include a pre '78 class at one meeting every four years?
I think Firko has summed it up here.
Where do you think Pre60-65-70 VMX riders come from? Because if we say that you ride the era you remember and grew up with, then we are looking at a diminishing number of people who can race these bikes.
You could argue that with the Nationals being at present Pre60 through to Pre85, the numbers for the older bikes is dropping, so adding pre78 to the older Nats wouldnt help, but I think we all know that that isnt the case of why the older bikes arent turning up to Nationals.
VMX riders don't grow on trees, they are a limited number and even moreso with the older bikes (and the bikes themselves), theirfore by allowing the Evo-Pre85 rider with a pre78 bike to race at the Classic Nationals (once a year) may incourage him to try racing older bikes.
But at the end of the day, where do these Pre60-70 riders come from?? That is the question everyone needs to look at and try to answer. Otherwise these classes are going to be lost at a National level.
Can I ask a question?
1/ How many WA club riders on Pre60-65-70 bikes have been to the last 3 or 5 VMX Australian National Titles?
2/ How many of those riders also raced Pre75?
-
We are all patrons of the sport, VMX is entrusted to us, not owned by us.
Why does their need to be a defining line in VMX, let the hosting club and its members decide what suits them best, we have enough rules now!
I would like to see more CLUBS want to run the Nationals, reform is needed for that to happen, not more restrictions. More clubs having a go at a National event , yep, far more important than a line in the sand.
just make your points to your controlling state bodies, best thru your club and it will carry more weight! submit direct if you choose, but lets not forget everybodies right to do so.
and stop the angst all of you, your just belittling yourself.
Cheers Trev, I'm done with ego's
-
I might get shot for answering this..
Where do you think Pre60-65-70 VMX riders come from? Fathers,sons and a few new (kids left home/midlifecrisis/testosterone junkies,pommy ) riders
Can I ask a question?
1/ How many WA club riders on Pre60-65-70 bikes have been to the last 3 or 5 VMX Australian National Titles? I believe pre85 has only been in the Nats for a few years,so its all really new statistics ask everyone again in 10 years (back to the question)- 19 WA riders attending is usually the trend.About half pre70,for last 3or5 Nats
2/ How many of those riders also raced Pre75? 98% as most take two bikes in the container.
How is this going to get more riders out on pre70 bikes Australia wide ?
This info is without looking through my paperwork. ;D
Where are these riders
Gerald Harrison
Bill Brown
Sean Hamilton
Andre Matherson
Robert Tumes
Daniel Ronald
Ben Harris
Paul Stacker
Davud Footner
Bill Holm
Les Barfoot
Chad Markin
23 pre 70 in 2008 Tassie
Basic stats from the 96 Barrabool program…Thanks GMC 8)
Pre 75 125 all ages 57 entrants
Pre 75 250 all ages 89 entrants
Pre 75 263+ all ages 39 entrants
Pre 75 4 stroke A/P 32 entrants
Pre 75 Sidecars A/P 6 entrants
Pre 65 4 stoke A/P 18 entrants
Pre 65 2 stroke A/P 8 entrants
Pre 70 A/P 33 entrants
Pre 75 under 30 125 11 entrants
Pre 75 30 - 39 125 26 entrants
Pre 75 40 - 49 125 11 entrants
Pre 75 50 + 125 10 entrants
Pre 75 under 30 250 14 entrants
Pre 75 30 - 39 250 37 entrants
Pre 75 40 - 49 250 23 entrants
Pre 75 50 + 250 19 entrants
Pre 75 under 30 250 9 entrants
Pre 75 30 - 39 250 31 entrants
Pre 75 40 - 49 250 20 entrants
Pre 75 50 + 250 14 entrants
States aren’t listed, just clubs. There seems to be reasonable entries from most states and a few from NZ.
Seems to be 151 entrants plus sidecar teams
-
Are you on drugs Alison, I only know a few of those names and there not West Aussies?
-
Are you on drugs Alison, I only know a few of those names and there not West Aussies?
Straight as a die tonight...just going through who has pre70-75 bikes..trying to get the shed door open,so they will come out and ride again :P
-
The Barrbool Nats where 14 years ago.....you cant use that as statistics.....heck some of those people arn't even around anymore and there are alot of "NEW" commers....it's whats happening now, and the trend of the last FEW years that are important!!!
-
Daniel Ronald does race vintage any more, Andre Matheson hasn`t rode for years, still has bikes.
Sean Hamilton raced at broadford on a greeves this year.
-
sorry liven in the wrong era ;D,,,Ok have just looked at 09/2010 and what a dramatic drop in pre70 and under.Its too early to do that many stats as pre85 is a whole new ball game.
Which can/could bring the whole Nationals threads on this forum back to
WHY WOULD YOU THRASH YOURSELF AND PRE65 BIKE ON A PRE85 TRACK ?
-
thank`s Noel
-
*Robbie Tumes from Broken Hill still races the big meets, won a class I think at the Coffs Nats.
*Bill Brown is a Klub Kevlar good 'ol boy, still races occasionally even after having a malignantly cancerous kidney removed in August last year. He's a pre 70 legend having won the Nats twice, ten years apart with his orange Monty 250. He'll be in the Kompound at CD7.
*Paul Stacker's got a full time job putting Maico engines together for Paul but I don't think he's raced for a while.
*Les Barfoot still races, he was brilliant racing a very fast XR80 in 4 stroke at the Coffs Nats.
* Sean Hamilton is still involved in the scene, works in with Drakey a bit.
*David Footners from SA and was only ever a part time vintage racer.
*Billy Holm still races at 72 years of age but of late he's been caring for a very sick wife but still has the passion and ability. He's one of Col Metchers Supersenior troupe.
Dave covered Daniel Ronald and Andre Matheson and I have no idea who the rest are. What's the point you're trying to make here Alison?
-
What's the point you're trying to make here Alison?
Thanks for the rider info,just a point that the old bikes are in the shed's and they may stay there for awhile longer yet and really to help DJ out with his questions.There is no right or wrong answers only that we are all trying to preserve the eras we like to ride.Always best to speak face to face :)
cheers
-
Putting myself in the"average punter" category I have ridden off and on at the Nats since their inception. What we seem to have is the same situations/difficulties in politics that exist in many Australian sports due to our geographical situation/isolatedness.The WA boys and girls (gotcha in Allision) want to promote what works in their part of the world ie Pre 75 , but the eastern board prefer Pre 78. In reality not many Easterners go west, due to probably cost and availabilty of alternatives(these have been my excuses, real or invented) while Westerners will venture East in slightly higher numbers as it becomes "the big thing to do that year" and provides the different experience from the norm. Some sports ie Swimming Australia settled this type of problem by deciding that "all" Open Aust championships/Commowealth Games tials/Olympic tials are at the Homebush Pool in Sydney.(Been going there for the last 4 years with son and while its great re accom, travel organisation etc, it gets a bit "how de do" going to the same place.
Due to our Club structures, track availabilty etc this is won't occur in VMX. To rationalise things at this stage we probably need a compromise rule that would allow the Nats to be split pre/post 78, however with a sub rule allowing the organising Club (be it WA, Qld or elsewhere) to set the cut off at Pre 75 and in that year, the Pre 78 class move to the "Newer nats". In reality as Firko says, this is only likely to hppen every 4-5 years and while an inconvenience , I think via past paricipation numbers its likely to affect only a very small number of competitors wanting to travel that year.
The question is "Could MA possibly deal with this degree of flexibility in its rules?"
Rosco
-
That is the rationale here and has been said a couple of times . The submitting club can nominate a pre75 or pre78 nat's. Problem solved.
-
Hi Guys,
FirKos Quote: The thing that worries me however is that if the commission is convinced to change their decision, what reaction will come from the west? I sincerely hope it doesn't evolve into yet another lengthy debate.
This could not be further from the truth we are not convinced to change our decision, we thought long and very hard about this proposal and beleive it our not we take pride in how cmx and cdt are run and feel that this issue could well be the single most important decision in recent VMX history.
The commission made its decision based on all proposals sent to MA not just Cols and if more clubs/states had sent in proposals then we may not of been debatining this issue.
Please don't shout WA clubs and riders for backing there proposal as they have a right as we all do to put our opion forward and standing for what they think is right.
It is now up to the riders out there to convince the clubs and the SCBs that we got it wrong by sending in your comments on the minutes.
please dont sit on your hands and do nothing, now is the time for ACTION!
Cheers
Fatboy
-
The track arguments are all a bit of smoke and mirrors for the purpose of this discussion, as it will only be an issue IF all of the following occurs all at the same time:
1. The assertions about pre-78 bikes chewing up the track are correct AND
2. The WA Club hosts another National title meeting AND
3. The WA club holds that National title meeting at Narrogin AND
4. Significant numbers of pre-78 bikes turn up.
Is Narrogin WA's only candidate track? Is it really going to be harmed by a couple of dozen pre-78 bikes, on a weekend when many thousands of laps will be completed?
I also feel the need to point out that the vast majority of pre-78 riders (at National level) also ride pre-75 and older, while very few of them ride Evo and newer.
This fact alone tells the story of where the pre-78 bikes belong.
Nathan, I think yr missing the point that WA are not trying to preserve a track (Narrogin), they're trying to preserve the early classes, & not just at club level.
I thoroughly agree with yr last paragraph tho.
In fact, most of the posts in the last 2 pages or so have been sensible & devoid of the earlier angst
-
It seems that West Oz doesn’t like being told they have to include something they don’t want anymore than East Oz likes being told that they can’t include something they do want.
There should be some flexibility in the system so that promoting clubs have some say in what they want to run. ( I actually don’t understand these supposed new rules as I thought we already had the choice to separate if we wanted)
Forcing WA to run Pre 78 would be a waste of time as they don’t nurture the class over there so there would be hardly any local entries and I’m not sure there would be enough Easterners travel over there to make the class viable.
I’m sure the club promoting Evo etc would welcome the Pre 78 class on the odd occasion.
-
All
now that the minutes are common knowledge I should make some comment
I dont feel that history should be the sole determination of the future success of the split, part of what we are doing here is to encourage people back to the sport and allow others to ride how better suits them. The 70+ age is a represention of this and the feed back in this area alone will most likely make alterations to the rider entrant numbers. Its thought that it should be a demo class and be non compeditive where every entrant receives the MA medal for competing. I feel you will get some of the old crew back - just for this class alone,
For me its well known I prefer Pre 78 as the split so the classic classes become pre 78 and the Post Classic are Pre 90 etc. (this should confirm that we work on submissions not personal view as the split has been put forward at pre 75). There is room for growth in the pre 90+ classes but no where to go in the future for the pre 78 and older. My point is that this should be considered both a new direction for the pre 90 movement and an effort to get riders to return to the pre 78 classes.
Can I suggest tht everyone has a read of the minutes of the commission to fully understand what is being undertaken here and make sure that if your not happy with any aspect you approach your state HSC and voice your concerns. As I have said many times before the Commission will not make / invent / change anything without solid input for or against from the SCB and their HSC.
Regards
Dave T
-
Gents, it's worthwhile to consider from first principals what cuts up the track
1. Power - it takes power to dig & the bigger the power, the bigger the digger.
The faster riders are on the power more therefore cut up the track more. (this is one of Brads points)
Sidecars have more power than anything
Also the later classes typically have more power than earlier classes.
And arguably, more/better suspension = better traction, therefore more effective diggers
and more/better suspension = more on the power.
2. Volume of traffic - more bikes, more races = more diggers. This point is obvious.
3. More tight corners etc - causes braking & acceleration woops. This is Dave#46's point.
The tighter/slower the corner, the more effect for 2 reasons:
a) Front wheel does not usually contribute to cutting up the track since it has no power, but under braking the negative torque applied is effectively power (power is just a mathematical function of torque). The more braking, the more woops.
b) the torque multiplication in the lower gears exiting slow corners effectively means bigger diggers there. This is offset somewhat by slower speeds (see below) but is still a factor.
4. Speed - explained why in point 6) below, but at its extreme a bike doing 2kph won't cut up a track, but one at 100kph will. So again the faster riders will cut the track up more.
But another significant point here is that the whole reason MX went long travel is that any given rough ground can be traversed faster with longer travel.
5. There maybe a 4stroke factor, in that better traction = more efficient digger. But if that traction is due to the frequency of the power impulses, its worth remembering that a 4T spinning at 14000rpm (as the modern ones do) is the same as a 2T at 7000rpm
6. The physics of spring systems. The most fundamental reason why tracks woop-out is that when any force is applied to any spring system the response is multiple oscillations. Its basic physics of mechanical/dynamic sytems. If there were no friction (damping) it would be simple harmonic motion (IIRC) ie perpetual oscillations. If perfect damping were possible there would only be one oscillation, but in practice neither is possible. What happens is numerous oscillations with diminishing amplitude.
The wooping of any track is directly proportional to the amplitute & frequency of those oscillations. The frequency is proportional to speed & the amplitude is proportinal to the stroke of the system & the force applied (which itself is also proportional to speed)
ie on several counts, long travel = more wooping of the track
Personally I still favour pre78 with pre75 for lots of reasons, most of which have been mentioned. I think the pros of that position outweigh its cons. Sadly, tho I think it would contribute to & probably accelerate the diminishing of the earlier classes, on account of it cutting up the track more than the earlier classes & older bodies can reasonably cope with. So I'm also 'sympathetic' towards the split at pre75. 'Spose thats 2 bob each way!
PS This was typed while Dave & GMC were typing their posts above. I'm not contradicting anything they say
-
I'm hearing you JC,
In my world add to this Sidecars and modern four wheelers and you have a real conversation piece.
I quiet often hear the words tractor trench's .Fast rider fact 8)
cheers
-
It seems that West Oz doesn’t like being told they have to include something they don’t want anymore than East Oz likes being told that they can’t include something they do want.
There should be some flexibility in the system so that promoting clubs have some say in what they want to run. ( I actually don’t understand these supposed new rules as I thought we already had the choice to separate if we wanted)
Forcing WA to run Pre 78 would be a waste of time as they don’t nurture the class over there so there would be hardly any local entries and I’m not sure there would be enough Easterners travel over there to make the class viable.
I’m sure the club promoting Evo etc would welcome the Pre 78 class on the odd occasion.
I don't quite agree as people seem to have forgotten that though in it's infancy there is now a pre85MXWA club and this promotes all forms of the sport. So we are nurturing other than pre75 classes in WA
-
FirKos Quote: The thing that worries me however is that if the commission is convinced to change their decision, what reaction will come from the west? I sincerely hope it doesn't evolve into yet another lengthy debate.
This could not be further from the truth we are not convinced to change our decision
Shane, the key word in my above paragraph is if. I'm merely indicating that if there is enough convincing argument for a pre '78 split and you do decide to reverse your decision, I'd hate to see the WA lobby enter a counter protest, and then the '78 lobby counter attack again, thereby keeping this going on and on ad infinitum. We have to find a middle ground for the future of our sport.
beleive it our not we take pride in how cmx and cdt are run and feel that this issue could well be the single most important decision in recent VMX history
Knowing all three of you and regarding you all as friends (jeez, two of you are Kevlar good'ol boys and old Rod should be for gods sake ;D) and I know quite well your dedication and passion for our sport. I have full confidence that the decision you made was indeed one of the hardest you would have had to make as commissioners and also believe that you made the correct decision you could have made considering the proposal evidence you had in front of you. Unfortunately, as I've written numerous times in this thread, the pro '78 lobby got it seriously wrong by arguing their case on this forum instead of presenting their case to the commission. I feel even more guilty as I was in regular contact with Col during the formulation of his proposal. I made the newbie mistake in thinking that you'd be as impressed with Cols submission as I was and that it'd be a shoe in to pass your scrutiny. Not being a member of a club any more didn't help either.
My/our mistake was underestimating the passion the WAVMX have for maintaining pre '75 at all costs. It's something we, on this side of the island let slide when we needed it most, hence the less than spectacular condition pre '75 finds itself in outside of WA today.
In the end, this is all about political spin doctoring and its all about passion for what we think is right but as I've said before, arguing the point on a forum is pointless. I'm passionate that I'm right because nothing has been presented that changes my opinion BUT totally understand why the pre '75 lobby have taken their stance. If I lived in WA and enjoyed the purity of pre 75 only racing, I'de be their bloody spokesman. Unfortunately I live in a world where pre '75 is no longer the centre of the VMX universe and can see that for the classic Nats to succeed into the future, we need to include pre '78 split.
-
It seems that West Oz doesn’t like being told they have to include something they don’t want anymore than East Oz likes being told that they can’t include something they do want.
There should be some flexibility in the system so that promoting clubs have some say in what they want to run. ( I actually don’t understand these supposed new rules as I thought we already had the choice to separate if we wanted)
Forcing WA to run Pre 78 would be a waste of time as they don’t nurture the class over there so there would be hardly any local entries and I’m not sure there would be enough Easterners travel over there to make the class viable.
I’m sure the club promoting Evo etc would welcome the Pre 78 class on the odd occasion.
I don't quite agree as people seem to have forgotten that though in it's infancy there is now a pre85MXWA club and this promotes all forms of the sport. So we are nurturing other than pre75 classes in WA
Its our future foundation for WA, were just beginning to go through all of what the east coast is and has in the last two years.
Time I think we all get this CMX rules/regulations book right sooner than later ;D
-
Wasp
better read the proposals, included are pre 90 and age classes for Evolution. Its already on us.
211
-
With CD7 only days away and a lot of you all there please make sure if there is anything that you would like to discuss make sure you do. If there are questions that need an answer - I may not have them all but I will attempt to help you understand the situation as I see it.
When its all said and done I along with the other members of the commission will make the final call based on the submissions from the LCBs. Unless you have taken the time to read the MA CMX commission minutes comments off topic are not helpful; for example, make your discussions in the forum specific to the minutes so it all stays on topic; comment for example on the right or wrong of age groups in Evolution - or for that matter why MNSW didnt like us calling it EVO and insisted we change the rules to better reflect Evolution rather than denigrate the class by association with Evil ::) It took 2 days of hard work so take a look.
:) :) :) :) :)
211
-
Just reading Walters reply and reflecting on JCs well considered thesis on track damage, I recall that the WAVMX is concerned about the amount of track damage that pre '78 bikes would do if allowed to run amok on Narrogins hallowed topsoil. Despite those concerns they don't seem to have any worries about sidecars (tractor trench's as Alison so eloquently described them) leaving their customary ruts and whoops.
Am I to believe that sidecars in WA don't dig the trenches they do elsewhere ???.......Just a thought.
-
I do agree with you Mark, the way l read into this, its double standed for western Australia, In the early days of the 50`s to the 70`s there was a track call Mt shadwell at Mortlake ( Google it).
In 1993 nick Rankin and myself went to the Shire of Mortlake and the owner of that property and asked if we could re-open Mt shadwell to run a vintage meeting and they said yes, to cut a long story short, so we set out with a coupe of fellow colac members and had a working bee on the track, up high on the Mountain you could still see the track after 40 years, we set out to promote the meeting on AIR, colac herald, warrambool standard, win TV, sponsoreship from Clarke Pies sent out flyers to all the stores all the way to orbost and beyony,on the Saturday of that week end, riders and bikes where rolling in through the grate, by sunday the entry numbers where over 200 and the spectators where 3500 plus, the race program was pre 80, pre78, pre75, pre70, pre65, sidecars, plus age classes. it was amazing to see. if l had photos l would show you all how amazing it was. Every person after that sunday walked away with excitement and enthusiasm. That track was very fast, flowing, off camber, hilly, but the track was still ridible on any machine.
So lets be realistic about all this, and stop the self invested interest and tunnel vision and move on and do it right for own sport.
-
Just when it looked like peace was made and some agree to disagree statements where made Firko and David#46 have to get the pointy stick out and poke again. Dave T has explained what you guys need to do so eveything else is BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.
-
Just reading Walters reply and reflecting on JCs well considered thesis on track damage, I recall that the WAVMX is concerned about the amount of track damage that pre '78 bikes would do if allowed to run amok on Narrogins hallowed topsoil. Despite those concerns they don't seem to have any worries about sidecars (tractor trench's as Alison so eloquently described them) leaving their customary ruts and whoops.
Am I to believe that sidecars in WA don't dig the trenches they do elsewhere ???.......Just a thought.
That's why I put the words "MY World" meaning modern solos & sidecars.
Speed(Classic National Speed) makes big ones in the dirt/sand(tractor trench's).I said before,its best left to talk face to face than on a forum as it all gets all double standardize and I don't need to worry about spelling ;) ;D
cheers
-
The point that l am making, if the tracks are designed right then pre 78 models won`t do anymore damage to a track that the earlier model bikes. the weekend at mount Shadwell proved that. there was only one problem on the day, there was over 50 pre 80 bikes on the starting line.
Well l was planing on building up my 77 husqvarna 250, so that idea will get the flick.
-
I think most of the pro pre'78 people are missing the point of the discussion in regards to the pre'75 club in WA. The suggestions made on what we do and have done over the past 15 years has proven what can be done to foster this class. The ideas have been presented to try and show who it can be done. All the other states have doen it differently. Fair enough,. But look at the consequences now. Not a hell of a lot of vision there - oh, except for predicting the demise of pre'75 and hailing pre'90 and those that "relate to it" as the saviours of "our sport". Give me a break. If another person gets on here and makes this prediction, who is not currently on the committee of a club promoting Vintage MX, I'll spew over my keyboard.
This cut-off is purely to do with suspension - nothing else. Track damage allegations aside, the idea is to have all of the bikes complying with the simple 7 and 4 rule (including sidecars) - real vintage MX. Everyone is competing on an equal suspension basis. And, like it or lump it, this is what you will have to ride in this club. Young or old you are riding machines of the same supension travel.
If the club proposed to bring in the pre'78 class to race, what do you think most people would go out and source - that's right, a pre'78 bike. Why? - cause they are just more plush to ride. Simple. The pre'75 bikes would be ridden less for the easier to ride pre '78 machines. This is what the WA pre'85 club has being set-up to cater for - the longer travel machines. People can belong to both clubs and enjoy the benefits of both eras in the one state - perfect.
This argument for the suspension cut-off from the VMXWA club was based upon some very sound thinking on the part of the foundation members and continues with the current membership. If this same thinking was used in other parts of the country, I doubt we would be having this discussion. It is not the members of the VMXWA club who have been shortsighted...
-
Bert, my club the classic scramble club is pre 75 only club, in the early stages of setting up our club in the begining it was going to be pre70, pre 65, pre60 club, but the three of us thought it would be best to stick with pre 75. l realise what you are on about and yes you are right it is about 7 inch and 4 inch, if a club wants to adopt pre 78 that is their choice, what l am only pushing for is pre 78 to be part of the pre 78 national level meeting in other words the Australian vintage titles. then club like pre 85 clubs and viper can adopt them on normal club level meeting. The classic scramble club will not run pre78 classes at our meetings.
-
I would call the pre 75. Australia vintage titles and for the other l would call it Australian evolution titles.
Mayby we should be adopting pre 77 and look after 76 and 75 model machines only. and the pre 80 will accommendate down to 77 model machine. why this idea is because the 75 to 76 bikes like falta cz and kawasaki kx mk8 bultaco, honda cr are closer to a 74 model bike than a 77-78 model are.
-
Guys,
you missed my thinly vailed dig at MNSW in lieu of continued banter over the ins and outs of a ducks bum.
Im dissapointed! :)
-
Dave, please speak english, not gobble de gook.
-
or for that matter why MNSW didnt like us calling it EVO and insisted we change the rules to better reflect Evolution rather than denigrate the class by association with Evil It took 2 days of hard work so take a look.
When I read that, I did wonder you would care enough to change the name from EVO.
Dave can I ask why did you agree to change the name?
Cheers
Noel
-
I did`t change anything, its a name that expresses all models in that era. because EVOLUTION marks the start of the new era in motorcross.
Pre75 was the end of an era from 1975 to 1990 was the start. So l feel that Australian Evolution Titles would be appropriate title name for that period.
-
Not you dave, I meant dave T :D
-
l see, cheers
-
This forum should not be used By Dave Tanner or any other commissioner to aid their decision on the split. It should be by submissions from state controlling bodies representing their licence holders.
-
Must be another West Aussie.....free country buddy and free speech goes along with that.....now go back to your terroist mates!!!
-
Jeez it's great to see some good old fashioned angst back in the old debate. It was becoming a bit sweet for my liking. And now gods become involved, and here was silly old me thinking he didn't exist. :o
This forum should not be used By Dave Tanner or any other commissioner to aid their decision on the split. It should be by submissions from state controlling bodies representing their licence holders.
What a crock of shit.
I think most of the pro pre'78 people are missing the point of the discussion in regards to the pre'75 club in WA
Bertie, at the risk of repeating myself, we all love what you've done in WA, everybody likes you. Really.
However, the discussion at hand is about the split for the Nationals, not the club charter for WAVMX. You guys keep talking about your own situation and how pure it is when the real issue is the Nationals split and has very little, if anything to do with what you do within WAVMX.
you missed my thinly vailed dig at MNSW in lieu of continued banter over the ins and outs of a ducks bum.
It didn't go through to the keeper Dave, it's just easier to have a light hearted debate on the pros and cons of pre '78 than to even acknowledge the lunatic facists of MANSW and their weird perspectives on the sport. Mixing Evo with Evil is ludicrous to most but just another bit of the usual weirdness to those who know what's going on there. This pre '78 stuff is little potatoes compared to the shit oozing from that evil orifice.......that do ya Dave? ;D
-
Their are to many daves in this bed l need to get out,which dave are you referring too.
-
Jeez Dave....the DaveT who made the MANSW reference I was answering. ???
-
gee mark, thats good l will get back into bed.
-
Dont forget the sleeping pills.
-
The major issue prompting my proposal to split the Nat was the increasing number of classes causing organisers to increase days ,drop classes [Narrogin ,Coffs , Tas.,Broadford ], reduce laps towards the end of the programm [Connondale] ,late presentations etc.
Other benefits that follow this --intro of Pre90 ,age groups in newer bike classes ,longer races ,tracks tailored to the differing 30yrs 0f developement in our bikes etc etc. are bonuses.
My initial thought was to split at Pre75,partly influenced by the example of the proven success of the WAVMX format.
I proposed Pre78 on purely practical issues.The post split fields have a natural source of increase as the years roll on ,whereas the pre split can only increase by making it an attractive product to retain existing riders and machines ,and attacting new ones.
I felt including Pre 78 made it more viable longer.There are very valid arguments on both sides ,as expressed on this forum.
Continued back and forth on this runs the risk of becoming counter-productive.It is overwhelmingly clear that the vast majority agree a split is the way to go ,and the Commision has recommended this[together with some further progressive moves].
The topic of where the split is made now must be left to due process.We have a sound Commission who wil guide this through and whatever the decision on where the split is made ,we need to get behind it 100%. If it needs some tweaking later after a couple of years,that's another matter.
-
Well said Col
-
[quote author=MA link=topic=13196.msg132882#msg132882 date=1275047469]
This forum should not be used By Dave Tanner or any other commissioner to aid their decision on the split. It should be by submissions from state controlling bodies representing their licence holders.
[/quote] .....I do not agree that this forum should not be used as an AID in decision making on this or any other question that may arise from time to time BUT it is important that licence holders should utilise there club membership to put forward ideas that can then be dealt with by the various committees that have been set up in each state to promote licence holders interests. I feel that one of the reasons that these committee members often feel frustated at the controlling bodies seeming lack of interest in committees submissions, is that not enough riders make the effort to utilise the relevent committee through there club. If people were more forthcoming in this arena the committees would be harder to ignore. Unfortunately in these days club membership for a lot of people is only viewed as a necessity to get a ride...cheers wally.
-
l think this forum should be used by the 3 Musketeers, then they can gauge the thoughts and feeling, the question asked by us riders regarding Vintage Motorcross.
Dave Tanner, Rod Mac Donald and the other who ever he is, your welcome to enter the house of horrors, or none as Hotel California, such a lovely place once you enter you`ll never leave. ;)
-
For those who believe that the state of WA has it's head in the sand and is only interested in pre75 bikes. then i would just like to let you know that the pre85mxwa club, which is only 6mths old has been able to get 25 bikes on the grid as a support class for the manjimup 15000.
"Head in the sand" I think not, passionate about it's vintage MX I think so.
-
Hey Dave, that sugar cube you ate in 73 still giving you trouble?
l think this forum should be used by the 3 Musketeers, then they can gauge the thoughts and feeling, the question asked by us riders regarding Vintage Motorcross.
Dave Tanner, Rod Mac Donald and the other who ever he is, your welcome to enter the house of horrors, or none as Hotel California, such a lovely place once you enter you`ll never leave. ;)
-
Dave Tanner, l am very much a sweet tooth, but l also feel very strongly about our sport, you dave are very highly respected as our decision maker and rider, your heart is in the right place and l could not think of any other person that would be suit to the position that you hold. Keep up the good work and listen to us forum members. And Dave don`t forget the Commission needs us and we need the Vintage Commission. 2 cubes of sugar please
-
2 tubes please
Two tubes of what?
-
just click, l did know what you guys where on about, l fixed it, thanks fellows. figure slip of the key board.
-
Hi from tassie as a owner of bikes from pre 70 through to pre 85 .I think pre 78 should be with pre 75, the later bikes being to advanced .also my 50 year old carcus is not up to racing with kids on the newer bikes. iainyz
-
It could possibly get pushed down to pre75 now from pre78, as the retro pre95 class's are coming through.
By the time MA has it all printed up and into the MOM's who knows what could happen between now and then with pre90-95. :-\
cheers
-
Al - highly unlikely IMO - the pre 78 technology lends more towards pre 75 than later and additionally some places are struggling with pre 75 (unlike WA) so the numbers are needed there? And where did pre 95 come from ???
-
l think this forum should be used by the 3 Musketeers, then they can gauge the thoughts and feeling, the question asked by us riders regarding Vintage Motorcross.
Dave Tanner, Rod Mac Donald and the other who ever he is,
The third musketeer is Shane Fraser.
-
Hey - please speak with respect - that's Fatboy to you ;D
-
Al - highly unlikely IMO - the pre 78 technology lends more towards pre 75 than later and additionally some places are struggling with pre 75 (unlike WA) so the numbers are needed there? And where did pre 95 come from ???
I've avoided your posts, cause I dont want to give my opinion on a forum of the Nationals in WA.
You say some are struggling and we have the extreme the other way.We have to meet in the middle.
I'm interested purely to get the riders at the start gate and preserve what we have got on a fair and equal base.
keep up :) pre95
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=15266.0
-
Ross is referring to you talking about pre 95 being around the corner. There wouldn't be a single club talking about introducing a class at all
It could possibly get pushed down to pre75 now from pre78, as the retro pre95 class's are coming through.
By the time MA has it all printed up and into the MOM's who knows what could happen between now and then with pre90-95. :-\
cheers
The way you have written this, you are saying pre 75 split because of extra classes? If there was a pre 95 introduced, it would be more reason to put the split at pre 78.
Pre '90 is the new comer and not accepted by all. Pre '95 is no where!
-
I think all that heat over in the west is starting to effect their logical thinking.....pre 95 only exists in cyberspace...or after 2 cartons of Corona's drunk through a straw and by that stage you cant find the straw.
-
Pre 95??? Stop that dirty talk immediately Alison or I'll send you to your room without any supper! >:(
-
Yes well by the time all the Nats class's are sorted it will be pre95 :-X and by then things may have changed and moved on from what we have now in the West..fingers crossed. Maybe we should have become our own country back in the day when they where dividing up the country.Then we would have had our own VMX and wouldnt feel so bloody far from the majority. :'(
oh sh..t did I just write that !!
cheers
-
Al - everyone is entitled to an opinion - you won't find a bigger supporter of the VMXWA club than me ;D - I luv it and have done since I arrived - however I still think a split at pre 78 is the way to go and I can voice this opinion - doesn't mean it will happen - particularly with us - but when I last looked it was OK on here to have a say?
And whilst on my apple box - I think it is political suicide to spend a heap of time getting consensus that - yes we need a split - without knowing where you want the split. If the "proposal" was taken forward to MA a logical extension of the first thought is - if you want a split where do you want it (as worms asked) - so best to have that answer ready as well.
Have a good one
-
Al - everyone is entitled to an opinion - you won't find a bigger supporter of the VMXWA club than me ;D - I luv it and have done since I arrived - however I still think a split at pre 78 is the way to go and I can voice this opinion - doesn't mean it will happen - particularly with us - but when I last looked it was OK on here to have a say? yep sure is ok for your opinion, and they are all very varied in wavmx ;D Im not saying anymore cause I know the intentions of too many and I dont want to end up in the dumbgeoun ;D ..Will catch you trackside some time or on the phone.
And whilst on my apple box - I think it is political suicide to spend a heap of time getting consensus that - yes we need a split - without knowing where you want the split. If the "proposal" was taken forward to MA a logical extension of the first thought is - if you want a split where do you want it (as worms asked) - so best to have that answer ready as well.
and yes this is were we need the submissions of all OZVMX clubs.Split era deciders 8)
Have a good one
over and out
cheers A
-
On a personal basis under present MOMs the best for me would be pre '78.
The thing is, as I ride only dirt track these days not m/cross {because I become a twenty year old when I grab a twist grip} my XT slider is ok in pre '78.
If my XT was allowed in the pre '75 class which, as I read the 2011 MOMs, says "cut off at '76" Rule 18.10.0.1. I would be fine with a split at pre '75.
However the ruling 18.11.1 b "When four stroke be 2 valve push rod operation".
This ruling not only excludes Yamaha XT machines but many other specials that were around since the sliders first appeared on the scene.
I see a similar problem with rule 18.11.0.1. b and c.
Title winning machines through the '60s frequently had wheel sizes other than those specified here. Remember for instance Squeakies ESSO powered slider, 21" front & 19" rear.
In my humble?? opinion the classic classes can not be truly represented unless machines that WERE raced in the period designated are included.
cheers pancho.
-
If my XT was allowed in the pre '75 class which, as I read the 2011 MOMs, says "cut off at '76" Rule 18.10.0.1. I would be fine with a split at pre '75.
Pancho...I don't know where you got the 1976 cutoff for pre 75 my 2008 rulebook states
in Rule 18.10.0.1...For the pre 75 class, all performance parts must be manufactured before December 31 1974. There is no way an XT/TT500 Yamaha will ever be eligible for the pre 75 class due to their 1975 release date.
The 2 valve stipulation stems back to the original 2 valve class which was never intended to be a vintage class. It was designed to entice the then dormant Jawa and JAP sliders out of sheds and onto tracks. Back in the 90s I proposed that "production based" OHC engines be allowed to compete in the 2 valve class but the powers that be on the commission at that time didn't share my vision so it was knocked back. Interestingly, the big Condo meting every year had it's own sup regs and they allowed XT powered sliders. Chris Ellis proved how good a Yamaha slider can be when he battled shoulder to shoulder with the great Gary O'Brien on his JAP at the final Condo meet. Chris's efforts inspired a number of people to build XT sliders but the authorities stuck by their guns outlawing them.
You've raised a valid point that the rulebook needing a good going over, sooner than later. The wheel size stipulation is especially ridiculous and I don't recall it ever being used to refuse a machine. As it stands now Wally, your XT500 slider fits comfortably into the pre '78 class.
-
I'm interested purely to get the riders at the start gate and preserve what we have got on a fair and equal base.
keep up :) pre95- this along with a thread attached was intended for Ross to catch up on the pre90/pre95 movement
One can only hope there are not to many minibike mums in real VMX and rule making positions . :D
Good to see you haven't lost your wooden shit stirring spoon for 2011 Wasp ;D
cheers A
-
What the fluck are you two on about?
-
I often wonder Mr F?
-
It really needs to be sorted out and clear to everyone, so everybody is clear about where they are heading.
pre 75 is clear. no change OR create a class just to suit 75, 76 models only and call it the modified class.
or 75 model and 76 models, 77, omitt them to the pre 95 movement or whatever the cut off era will be.
All this bickering won`t solve the problem.
-
Hey Mark, my 2011 M.O.M.s which I just received, page 170
Rule 18.10 ELIGIBILITY SLIDER CLASS. 18.10.0.1 Engines must have been manufactured before 31st. December 1976.
Rule 18.11.1 Engine specification-solo. The engine must:a]be a single cylinder
b] When four stroke be 2-valve push rod operation.
To me this ALMOST lets in XT powered sliders [pre dec 76].
Like you said about wheel sizes, how about the 350 twin Triumph powered sliders at Nepean in the 60's and one or more 250 twin Honda Sports powered sliders?
cheers pancho
-
what are we talking about speedway bike national here or motocross.
-
I know Pancho is talking about the Dirt Track nationals, that's where his passion lies.
I'm not sure if there is a push or a need to seperate them as with the MX nationals.
-
Wally...Your XT500 slider fits into pre '78 and the slider class ( 18.10.0.1) with the Dec 31 1976 cutoff which somebody has adapted from the old 2 valve class. It will never however be allowed in the pre '75 division which I believe was your original question.
To me this ALMOST lets in XT powered sliders [pre dec 76].
No ALMOST about it Wal, as far as I can see it fits OK into the slider class.
This is just another example of the eligibility criteria needing a good overhaul. With the new era cutoffs coming into the sport, each with its own quirks and foibles, if the rulebook isn't tidied up and made more user friendly eligibility security is going to be a nightmare in the future. The grey areas have to be made clear so that situations like Wals or more relevently what happened at the Conondale Nats can be avoided in the future.
Thankfully, this long overlooked overhaul may soon get underway if recent moves come to fruitition.
-
You got to be crazy to think a 76 model XT is OK for pre 75.If the rule book says its ok now then someone better get it fixed up quick smart. If thats allowed then people will start claiming the 81 model is a 'follow on model' ::)
No 1974 model XT's were burning around the circuits in 1974 in what is now the limit for PRE 75 so i dont know why you would want to do that now. isn ti about re-creating the past period and not stretching the rules? You never saw a XT racing before 1975 against other bikes that eara so why would/should it be ok now? it would just look silly. i will never understand why people want to ride newer models in older classes or news modern pars on old bikes. if you want to do that why not just rides a newer class, eg evo or pre 85 etc.
-
Yeah I don't know where Wal got that pre '75 idea.
-
poncho is talking pre 76 not pre 75 as the new moms has some changes in the long track come slider class.
poncho you should of put this under vintage track - sliders in the nats 2011 and on ma has stuffed up big time -started by jim1au as it is casing some confusion.
i understand where you are coming from after i had a better look at the moms 2011.as firko has pointed out it needs a an overhaul but this is a step in the right direction as it is removing the longtrack from the discipline.
-
Mark the problem that I see is the "push rod operation ruling" which puts XTs and TTs and ANY OTHER overhead cam engines out of the pre '76 slider class.
However I am inclined to agree with what LWC82PE has to say about "if they weren't around up to '74 they should be out."
Whatever the rule is I will go along with, but I will argue about rulings that exclude bikes, factory OR specials that I saw racing in the period that the ruling refers to.
For instance in dirt track in the pre75 period there were specials [one offs] around in slider frames with wheel sizes other than 23" front and 19" rear as well as ohc engines being used and twin cylinder engines.
Not arguing just discussing. cheers pancho.
-
BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE! confusion that is, getting back to the question of the thread.
Nationals split.
As I read it in current MOMs page 170 rule 18.12.1.2
"Evolution class and Pre 85 may be run as part of the Australian Classic Motocross Championship OR independently."
Guess what ,that rule was not new - refer 2010 MOMs
-
Iv'e only got a 2008 moms but in there rule 18.13 1.2 page 159
Evolution class may be run as part of the Australian classic motocross championship or indendently :)
-
My 2010 rule book has the split removed, page 168, 18.7.14.1
-
Evo550 My 2011 rule book has it crossed out. Page 168, 18.7.11.1 Darcy
-
Darcy,
Just realised I'm looking in the wrong spot, check page 170 18.12.1.2 under Aussie championships.
The irony is the M.A. add directly under it :)
-
yer pancho you must have been reading your sliders rules again as it is on the same page.now does that mean there is a (possible) split at pre 78 because a club or promoter could run the evolution, pre 85 championship independent of pre 78 etc or a club or promoter could run a championship up to pre 78 and leave the evolution,pre 85 classes out.
18.12.1.1 say`s something about the championships will be conducted as a single meeting etc but the rule that you have pointed out 18.12.1.2 say`s that you can spilt it.yet again the moms is printed on white paper but there is grey in there.
you have to laugh the add in the bottom of the page "thinking about a rule changes?"
does this mean we wasted 14 pages?
-
now does that mean there is a (possible) split at pre 78 because a club or promoter could run the evolution, pre 85 championship independent of pre 78 etc or a club or promoter could run a championship up to pre 78 and leave the evolution,pre 85 classes out.
does this mean we wasted 14 pages?
Yes and Yes
-
does this mean we wasted 14 pages?
Nah. It was great watchin' 'em squirm.
I think an Evo/Pre 85 Nats is going to be just awesome! ;D
-
does this mean we wasted 14 pages?
Nah. It was great watchin' 'em squirm.
I think an Evo/Pre 85 Nats is going to be just awesome! ;D
Agreed!
-
Haven't Evo titles been run seperately before?
Didn't Kev Williams run an Evo/ Vets/ Woman's national event at Conondale a few years ago?
-
BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE! confusion that is, getting back to the question of the thread.
Nationals split.
As I read it in current MOMs page 170 rule 18.12.1.2
"Evolution class and Pre 85 may be run as part of the Australian Classic Motocross Championship OR independently."
Guess what ,that rule was not new - refer 2010 MOMs
The ‘OR’ is even in my 05 manual, although back then it was only for Evo as pre 85 wasn’t listed yet.
From what I heard, a club wanted to run pre 75 only Nats in 2010 and as no other offers were coming to run the later classes MA gave the nod to Preston club as they were prepared to run all the classes.
There has been a lot of talk about making the split compulsory but that will only give the clubs interested in running the Nats more flaming hoops to jump through.
I think its better left optional.
If a club wanted to run pre 75 only, they would be best to encourage another club to run the later classes.
I think if MA had 2 reasonable offers for 2 events then the commission might give it the nod.
Besides, no one can agree on the split being at pre 75 or 78.
WA have a successful format so won’t want to run post 75 and a lot of eastern state clubs can have the option to split at 78 if they wish.
It may change from year to year but that’s no big deal really.
-
Haven't Evo titles been run seperately before?
Didn't Kev Williams run an Evo/ Vets/ Woman's national event at Conondale a few years ago?
Yes i rode in the 2004 Evo & Vets Nats at Conondale run by Kevin Williams but it was not a proper MA endorsed championship, just a 1 off event that Williams called an 'Australian Championship'
-
Yes i rode in the 2004 Evo & Vets Nats at Conondale run by Kevin Williams but it was not a proper MA endorsed championship, just a 1 off event that Williams called an 'Australian Championship'
I'm sure the EVOs were a proper OZ title. I remember it costing heaps in MA fees. The 125s didn't get enough riders to be classed as a title.
-
Yes i rode in the 2004 Evo & Vets Nats at Conondale run by Kevin Williams but it was not a proper MA endorsed championship, just a 1 off event that Williams called an 'Australian Championship'
I'm sure the EVOs were a proper OZ title. I remember it costing heaps in MA fees. The 125s didn't get enough riders to be classed as a title.
I remember it costing heaps to enter but i didn't receive anything from MA for 2nd place (normally a medallion or ribbon}, just a plastic YZ front plate with some vinyl lettering on it from Williams.
-
Geez, you were right about the entry fee :o
This is from the regs. I thought there where medels. Anyhow, So they can be split.....I wonder if ::)
1. ANNOUNCEMENT:
The Sunshine Coast MCC and WEM, hereinafter called
the promoters, will conduct the 2004 AustralianEvolution Championship and the Masters of Motocross
2004 Australian Veterans Cup hereinafter called "The
Event" will be conducted for National licence holders in
125cc, 250cc & over 263cc Evolution class and for
Veterans 35 to 40 years, 40 to 45 years, 45 to 50 years
and 50 years plus at Green Park, CONONDALE on
Sunday, 19th September 2004.