Poll

The pre-78 Nationals should be included with...

the pre-75 Nationals.
78 (78%)
the Evo and newer Nationals.
14 (14%)
where-ever - I don't care.
8 (8%)

Total Members Voted: 73

Author Topic: Nationals split: pre-75 or pre-78?  (Read 50573 times)

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Offline Nathan S

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Nationals split: pre-75 or pre-78?
« on: May 18, 2010, 07:40:47 pm »
Back-ground: From 2011, the VMX National titles will be split between older era bikes (pre-75 and older, vs Evo and newer). The question is now where to put the pre-78 bikes.
As the MoMs says, the pre-78 class exists to represent the era of 'medium travel' bikes - the bikes that bridge the gap between the short-travel pre-75 bikes and the long travel Evo bikes.
With only three years of eligible bikes, pre-78 will always be a relatively small class.

Col Metcher has submitted a formal proposal to the MA commission, which suggested the split and asked for the pre-78 class to be included with the pre-75 and older bikes. "Everyone" seemed to agree with this, however...

From Col M's post in another thread:
Quote from: Supersenior50
The recommendation by the Commission is the split be at Pre 75.There are valid arguments for this ,but there is a strong counter argument for it to be split at Pre78.It is agreed by both factions that the split is needed, it's a matter of where
.

So what are the arguments for each?

Pre-78 with pre-75 an older bikes:
1. With the Nats split, the Evo/pre-85/pre-90 tracks are likely to be run on modern style tracks. With a maximum of 9" of travel front and rear, the pre-78 bikes (and their riders) are going to find it hard going on these tracks. In contrast, the pre-78s small numbers mean that they will never be able to demand that pre-75 bikes run on tracks that are unsuitable for the short-travel bikes.

2. While some 1977 model bikes have a full 9" of travel front and rear, the majority are well short of that mark - most have suspension travel figures closer to that of a pre-75 bike.

3. The vast majority of pre-78 bikes are based on pre-75 bikes. This means that they are visually and mechanically more closely aligned with the older bikes. Consequently, this means that these bikes are more 'at home' with the older era bikes.

4. Anecdotally, the riders who compete on pre-78 bikes at National level, are far more likely to also compete on pre-75 and older bikes, rather than Evo+ bikes.

5. Previous experience has shown that pre-75 events are not particularly viable, and adding the pre-78 bikes is enough to tip the balance.

Pre-78 with the Evo and newer bikes:

1. The longer travel pre-78 bikes will chop up the track more.

2. The early days of the sport were only about pre-75 and older bikes. Keeping the pre-75 eras seperate from the pre-78 and later bikes is returning to that tradition.

3. Pre-78 bikes will cut up the Narrogin track in WA.


Feel free to add, delete, change or discuss the points on that list!
Please keep it civil!
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 03:23:59 pm by Nathan S »
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

shoey

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Re: Nationals split: pre-75 or pre-78?
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2010, 07:48:43 pm »
Keep pre-78 bikes where they belong , with the pre-75 bikes.


Offline worms

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Re: Nationals split: pre-75 or pre-78?
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2010, 08:00:38 pm »
did your club make a submission? Nathan this is now a waste of time.

Cheers Trev

Offline Nathan S

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Re: Nationals split: pre-75 or pre-78?
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2010, 08:16:17 pm »
Col's post didn't seem to suggest it was a done deal.
Regardless of anything else, the commissioners are tasked with doing what they think is right - and threads such as this can alter their thinking (assuming currently hold views that are different to the majority of punters).

The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

090

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Re: Nationals split: pre-75 or pre-78?
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2010, 08:32:06 pm »
Its disappointing to say the least for me. A couple of guys take the initiative to push vmx into the right direction only to have clubs that are asked to put their hand up not agree for the wrong reason. From what I understand the W.A club and another in Vic which also favours the earlier bikes, wants the cut off at pre 75. I would hope that thoughts of doing what is right for vmx as a whole will make them change their stance on this subject, which is at a National event ONLY. It in no way has anything to do with any other meeting that they would run.
Why hasn't there been any correspondence from NSW and Tasmania? Or has there? If those states were in favour of pre78 split, then that would help tip the balance.
Pre 78 NEEDS to be put in with the earlier classes, otherwise both sides will suffer. They will be left at home if thrown in with the later bikes and the earlier classes will need the pre 78 to be a good strong national event. Most (but not all) guys will ride an evo or later bike. Most (but not all) pre 78 riders will ride pre 75 and pre 70.
Another great point made by master croquet is that the strong events post pre 78 are evo, pre 85 and in the not to distant future, pre 90.
In the earlier classes its pre 75, pre 70 AND pre 78. I only go as far back as the Coffs nat's and I reckon it was a comfortable amount of events.
I don't think the guys are a holes or anything. I just think they are looking at each other and saying ''stuff 'em, we are doin' alright'', rather than thinking about vmx as a whole...at a national level.

SAABCOMBI

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Re: Nationals split: pre-75 or pre-78?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2010, 08:50:50 pm »
1977 models won`t chop up the tracks, if a corner is slow and stop and start corner yes  the corner will be chopped up. but a flowing corner there won`t be a problem.

Offline Freakshow

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Re: Nationals split: pre-75 or pre-78?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2010, 10:12:45 pm »
they would run.
Why hasn't there been any correspondence from NSW and Tasmania?   
Hey i asked the question on here and at MA about an SA vintage MX committee, still got no traction or interest in letting us make a comment about.
74 Yamaha YZ's - 75 Yamaha YZ's
74 Yamaha  flattracker's
70  Jawa 2 valve speedway's

For sale -  PRE 75 Yamaha MX stuff, frame, motors and parts also some YAM DT1,2,A and Suzi TS bikes and stuff

Offline VMX247

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Re: Nationals split: pre-75 or pre-78?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2010, 10:30:57 pm »
wants the cut off at pre 75. I would hope that thoughts of doing what is right for vmx as a whole will make them change their stance on this subject, which is at a National event ONLY. It in no way has anything to do with any other meeting that they would run.

Ditto-National only event.But hey, we are only two.  ;D
cheers
Best is in the West !!

firko

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Re: Nationals split: pre-75 or pre-78?
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2010, 10:36:00 pm »
Quote
Col's post didn't seem to suggest it was a done deal.
I think you'll find that it's a done deal. My little birdie tells me that their were more submissions for the split at pre '75 than for pre '78. For the record I think it should be pre '78 but I'm happy with pre '75.

Offline E74

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Re: Nationals split: pre-75 or pre-78?
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2010, 10:44:46 pm »
Quote
Col's post didn't seem to suggest it was a done deal.
I think you'll find that it's a done deal. My little birdie tells me that their were more submissions for the split at pre '75 than for pre '78. For the record I think it should be pre '78 but I'm happy with pre '75.

That wouldn't be the best decision for the sport as I think the idea is to get all the "Nats" riders to both events if they can, I am not a pre 75 rider, I just don't like how they handle but I'd ride a pre '78 so Id go to a pre  '78 Nats and then to the later Nats because I love Evo class racing, that puts me at both events and going by the poll most would do the same.

Offline JohnnyO

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Re: Nationals split: pre-75 or pre-78?
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2010, 10:51:24 pm »
I'm in the same boat as E74, i've got pre 78, evo and pre 85 bikes so i'd only go to one National.

Offline Rossvickicampbell

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Re: Nationals split: pre-75 or pre-78?
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2010, 10:53:01 pm »
clarification on a couple of comments - haven't been in the sport that long Nathan but the Nats and major events that I have been to (and certianly some of the polls on here) show that pre 75 could stand on it's own by a long way????

E74 - what poll are you referring to - I thought the poll as to which Nats people would ride was well and truly in favour of pre 75 (78?).

Rossco
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Offline VMX247

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Re: Nationals split: pre-75 or pre-78?
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2010, 11:21:07 pm »
I'm in the same boat as E74, i've got pre 78, evo and pre 85 bikes so i'd only go to one National.

prime example  8)
Best is in the West !!

Offline E74

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Re: Nationals split: pre-75 or pre-78?
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2010, 11:40:15 pm »
clarification on a couple of comments - haven't been in the sport that long Nathan but the Nats and major events that I have been to (and certianly some of the polls on here) show that pre 75 could stand on it's own by a long way????

E74 - what poll are you referring to - I thought the poll as to which Nats people would ride was well and truly in favour of pre 75 (78?).

Rossco

The one at the top of the page

The pre-78 Nationals should be included with... the pre-75 Nationals.  13 (81.3%)

 


Offline Nathan S

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Re: Nationals split: pre-75 or pre-78?
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2010, 12:13:20 am »
RossVC,
The Coff Nats in 07 was run as pre-78 and earlier event. It was a well-run event that seemed to avoid most of the politics and bitching that now seems to be inherent with the Nats.
According to Donny Thornton (he used to be on this site as No.13, haven't seen him online in ages), if it had been limited to a pre-75 era, then the event would have run at a financial loss - the extra entries from pre-78 was enough to tip the balance to a modest profit.

Remember that the Nationals are outrageously expensive/difficult to run (compared to a club day), so numbers of riders that would make for a brilliant club day, would also make for a financial disaster of a Nationals.

And everyone should remember that the "Which Nationals would you ride?" poll was asking about a pre-78 vs Evo+ split - so if the split is changed, then the results of that poll are probably misleading.

The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.