Nationals split: pre-75 or pre-78?

[090]

So you put everything in to pre 75 ?

[mainline]

I can't see me ever riding at a Nationals event, I left my comeback way too late to be anything but a moving chicane but I'm curious as to what others think the reasons are that the older classes are going downhill?

Is it that the relative newcomers to VMX will ride the bikes that they grew up with? That the older bikes are viewed as harder to ride/maintain? Or that the owners of the older bikes (generalisation here) prefer club days and non-competitive riding?

Or all of the above?

What do we need to do to try and get these early bikes back on the track? or is it a done deal?

The main reason I ask is that when I talk to mates who own modern bikes about VMX, some of them don't get that you can have fun on a bike without all the latest technology, given that everyone else you're riding with is on the same style of bike. eg. it's like going to the local go-kart track with your mates. Everyone is driving the same style of kart, and the racing is where the fun is, not whether the kart is the best you can get your hands on.

I can't see how the same mindset can't carry through to VMX?

[Rossvickicampbell]

basically Brad yes - each meet has a feature race and sometimes these are over 55;s, Honda Elsinore, Jap 250's, pre 65 etc etc but other than that one in all in based on A, B, C etc.

[JohnnyO]

I can't see me ever riding at a Nationals event, I left my comeback way too late to be anything but a moving chicane but I'm curious as to what others think the reasons are that the older classes are going downhill?

The reason for the dwindling numbers in the older classes is that most of the people that grew up racing them are now getting old and not into beating up there body on a race track anymore.
I started racing in the mid 70's to the mid 80's and that's where my interest lies. I've got no intention of ever owning a pre '70 or pre '65 bike and it's the same with most of the guys i know.

[SLAWESY]

I started racing in the mid 70's to the mid 80's and that's where my interest lies. I've got no intention of ever owning a pre '70 or pre '65 bike and it's the same with most of the guys i know.

"Ditto" Johnny

[DJRacing]

Is the writing on the wall for the older classes?

I'm sure most of us would like to see Pre60-65 and 70 go from strength to strength with a split of the nationals, with maybe the owners of the bikes coming back to race/ride, or letting others race their bikes and I hope that that would be the case with splitting the nationals.

The Pre78 class is a special class in more ways than alot of people give it credit for. Its the cross over class from what we think is vintage to long travel. Its also the class that riders have as their "oldest" bike and its also the class that riders haved as their "newest" bike, thereby getting people to go to both nationals. Pre78 is the class that 'could' get poeple to buy and race older (pre60-65-70-75) bikes at the nationals because if it is in with the Pre75 nationals the riders might want to have more races. That leaves them buying older bikes, and hopefully building up numbers of the older classes.

Splitting the Nationals should be about how best to future-proofing our sport for building on what is already there by giving more people the opportunity to race in both nationals. It has already been said that some people dont want/have Pre75 and older bikes but do have Pre78 and are willing to race them, so isnt a Pre78 class at the "older bike" nationals the best way to maybe start the guys into the older bike classes?

 The Evo-Pre85 and when it happens, Pre90 classes are generally going to be where the new riders for the older bikes will come from, and as alot of these guys dont associate themselves with the pre60-65-70-75 bikes why would they want to go to a nationals and race??
Pre78 is the class that will make them want to be there, and hopefully a flow-on effect will happen with them wanting to race in the older classes.

Pre78, in with Evo-Pre85 and (in time) Pre90 will become the forgotten era and be lost in the future if it has to run with the newer bikes. The riders of Evo and onwards who have pre78 bikes would be less likely to race them at a nationals if the have the choices of long travel Evo, pre85 and at some stage in the future, Pre90. With Pre78 in with those bikes their wouldnt be any link for the more younger/modern rider to want to front up to the older natioanls, and that would be a shame.

The only true place the Pre78 class should run is with the older bikes, not only for the sake of numbers but also for show casing the evolution of motocross bikes.

[DR]

I started racing in the mid 70's to the mid 80's and that's where my interest lies. I've got no intention of ever owning a pre '70 or pre '65 bike and it's the same with most of the guys i know.

This is the veiw I've held for ages as to why the numbers are dwindling and the future direction of VMX as we know it. I firmly believe the interest/numbers in specific era's will follow suit as the older riders retire. I also firmly believe this is the driving force for the 'seemingly' high prices paid for late 70's to mid 80 MX bikes, parts and era accessories we see at present. It seems hard to imagine anyone wanting to race or even own a bike that was built before 'their time'. Sure there are always going to be some exceptions to the rule but on the whole I feel it's kind of a losing battle hoping future generations will continue to hold the same values for the older bikes. It'd be like me wanting to race pre'65 when truth is I know very little about this era, the riders or the machines. We all like to ride the bikes we rode back in the day so doesn't it stand to reason younger racers or enthusiasts coming thru would share the same views? Pre'85 now, Pre'90 on the cards, after that it'll be pre'95 and sooner rather than later pre'2000 will also be embraced as vintage. Even though I spent little time on them back in the day I have 2x pre '70 bikes and a swag of pre'75 for one simple reason, I spent so much time riding in the late 70's and early 80's that now I look for something a little different (older) because basically I'm suffering a burn out on the post '78 models I grew up on. The earlier bikes are much more an unknown quantity and hold a bit more of a challenge for me to piece together and discover the history attached Just my view of course and not everyone will agree but as I stated, most don't/won't consider riding something that doesn't directly relate to their own era hence I see the decline. Pre'78 is sort out there in no mans land simply because they were models that combined both pre'75 and some post '78 designs and the riders of these models in general would head towards Evo and later if a split were made.  

[NSR]

Splitting the Nationals should be about how best to future-proofing our sport for building on what is already there by giving more people the opportunity to race in both nationals. It has already been said that some people dont want/have Pre75 and older bikes but do have Pre78 and are willing to race them, so isnt a Pre78 class at the "older bike" nationals the best way to maybe start the guys into the older bike classes?

What he said. Spot on.
Noel.

[SAABCOMBI]

Brad, what l have said and felt about the split in the past was made with my head not my heart, and what l have presently quoted, it has been spoken. they have made there discussion . God has spoken. pre 78 will ride with the pre 90`s.
Some of us will will deside to do both nationals and some of us will make a choice, pre 90 to pre 78
 Pre 75  to pre 65 nationals.
My feelings are, pre78 should have stayed with the older bikes.

[firko]

Splitting the Nationals should be about how best to future-proofing our sport for building on what is already there by giving more people the opportunity to race in both nationals. It has already been said that some people dont want/have Pre75 and older bikes but do have Pre78 and are willing to race them, so isnt a Pre78 class at the "older bike" nationals the best way to maybe start the guys into the older bike classes?

I couldn't agree more DJ.
I also think that it'd be a good thing if some of the older riders who, for reasons of their own don't want to race any more, could be persuaded to offer their bikes to riders willing to race. I've been doing it on and off for twenty years and even though some of those I've sponsored have abused the gesture, most of the sponsored rider deals have been positive experiences. Now that I don't race any more I'll be offering my bikes to different riders over the next few championship meetings. My main class of interest is pre 70 so I'll be prepping my new Cheney and the old Maico for that class at next years pre 78 Nats (as long as it's on this side of the island). I may possibly prep my Ducati Hindall for pre 65 250 and if that's a positive experience, possibly another pre 65 bike will be built and entered over time. Now, if I can do that and another 10 retirees do the same thing, that could be the difference between a class failing to reach championship standard entry numbers and it's success.

Now all we need is 10 owners of pre 70 and/or pre 65 class bikes willing to do the same thing.

[bert]

You would get that at every race meeting on the west coast if you wanted Mark.

The only futureproofing you need to consider when discussing historic racing is to ensure that you give the riders of these historic machines a reason to compete. Competing with machines of the same suspension travel is a very simple solution. After all, motocross through the 70's and 80's was all to do with the "suspension revolution". This is the reason for the period cut-off concept in the first place. Make 'em happy at the club level and they they carry on riding. Promote this at the club level and you will continue to grow the numbers in their preferred classes.

It is not the people who "relate" to the class of racing that the "future" of the sport relies upon. Futureproofing vintage motocross relies on giving the average Joe motocrosser an enjoyable thrill on relatively cheap low tech machinery - just like the good-ol'-days. He then gets his family involved and also tells his mates to get involved and on it grows. I never rode a 60's pommy 4 stroke till introduced at a come-and-try club day, didn't know they existed, but now I wouldn't ride anything else - because it is just great fun.   

What has this got to do with this forum discussion focussed purely at the National level - the pinnacle of the "racing" scene? When the classes are split the opportunities for more rides over the Nationals weekend will mean that more people will be attracted to it. The more people riding in the same classes in the various states means that there are more people that may wish to attend a Nationals dedicated to their particular era of pleasure. A healthy dedicated club scene can only mean an improved attendance at National titles.

[GMC]

Competing with machines of the same suspension travel is a very simple solution. After all, motocross through the 70's and 80's was all to do with the "suspension revolution". This is the reason for the period cut-off concept in the first place.  

You make it sound like the pre 75's would be racing against the Pre78's
They are different classes and race their own kind acordingly.
WA events sound good and I would like to check one out one day but we're talking about making the Nationals viable for a club to run without C grade support races.

[SAABCOMBI]

pre 78 bikes need to stay with the pre 75 bikes, who ever is making this discission are fools, and have tunnel vision.,

[LWC82PE]

GMC, you have said exactly what i was going to say! Thankyou and YES they are separate classes Just because the majority want pre 78 class at the older nationals, it doesnt mean a 77 RM is going to be on the same starting grid as a 1974 TM or a 1968 Triumph. Its common sense. No one is suggesting that the pre 78 bikes will be mixed in with the older classes, their just simply saying at the nats you will have a pre 78 class/race along with the usual pre 75, pre 70 etc

[090]

pre 78 bikes need to stay with the pre 75 bikes, who ever is making this discission are fools, and have tunnel vision.,

As small a sentence this is Dave , I still have to decipher it. Seeing as you have posted earlier that pre 78 belongs with the later classes I will take it that way.
Unfortunately to the detriment to vmx, there are some that have tunnel vision. I personally think it is due to people such as yourself and even Bert here. You guys can't get your head around the fact that there is more to vintage than pre 75. Again, unfortunately, this part of vmx will never change in the near future at least. Simple FACTS can't seem to get through in this discussion. Its about viability of a NATIONAL event. To make an early year split viable, pre78 should be included as you CANNOT rely on pre 60 and 65 as numbers are down. Why put pre78 in with a later year Nat's when all other classes are healthy or on the increase?
From my side of the screen, all I see is head in the sand mentality and because of this, you miss the whole point of the split .
You guys need to get over your precious pre 75 rant. Its getting really....pre75.