The older bikes in VMX are much, much harder to ride, requiring significantly more rider fitness, bike maintenance and input in general. The bikes are getting expensive and the engines can be finiky to keep going and hard to get bits for.
why ? too old to worth anything too new too be worth anything a pre 90 is a modern bike full stop bugger all difference to a new bike ok so they are not 4st .i can see pre 85 differrent types and styles, pre 90 is just a cheap way to go racing ,if you want a modern bike buy one it is vmx not mmx/superx
I've watched the slow but sure change in vmx trends in my short span of 8 years. My appetite is fading more & more as the field looks like that 80's show.Why do other people's actions alter what you do/like?
For me pre-75 is very special, the look, the sound...
Non competition ride days would solve all thisTouche' Ross. I totally agree with everything you wrote. The only time I've seen anything like the spirit of vintage racings 88-98 glory days has been at all of the Classic Dirt events. I fully understand a blokes need to race but sometimes this is all taken too seriously. If you added up the race laps the old Kevlars have under their bums you could reach the moon and many of us have become jaded with racing. Classic Dirt however has inspired and pumped us enough to keep building bikes purely for non competition days and the occasional proper race. Getting together with old bike loving mates is what it's about, not trophy hunting.
... you've yet to address what we are to do with all of these classes. I fully understand the reasons for moving the goal posts but now we've got three classes covering a ten year time span.
Are we, as Vintage Motocrossers' preserving bikes in an era in time or preserving the racing of old bikes??
I had been intending to bow out of this discussion, but this is one of the red herrings that's waved around far too often....
Its utter fantasy to argue that an 89 model bike is a patch on a modern (And remember that 89 is the newest allowed in pre-90).
I'm a crap rider, and I can feel - and utilise - the improvements between my 89, 94 and 99 model bikes.
When was the last time any modern event was won by a bike more than a couple of years old?
Why are all of those young, cash-strapped up-and-comers so desperate to get a new bike? Are they retarded?
WTF have the factories been doing for the last 20 years if the current fare isn't significantly better than what they were producing back then?
If you were to take a superficial look at pre-75 and pre-65 bikes you could come to a similarly dodgy conclusion that there were no/minimal differences between them....
Can we finally drive a stake through the heart of the simplistic nonsense that says that any pre-90 bike is remotely competitive with a modern MXer?
Even when modified using 2008 parts and knowledge, you've still got under-sized discs, crappy first generation USD forks, outdated rear linkages, old-school ergonomics, and old thinknig 2-stroke designs (short stroke vs the far more recent long stroke, relatively poor power valves etc).
Nathan, I wasnt the one who brought up the arguement about how good or how bad a pre90 bike is, but you asked the question that they wouldnt run with mordern bikes. I know what I have seen, and I have seen, on a natural terrian track (that I rode, and not very well) that was a tough track, a '85 RM125 racing in A grade 250cc 4 stroke and he kicked ass. But now you say "equally talented" riders equally familiar with their bikes?? A bike will only go as fast, jump as high, bust a berm as the riders ability will allow. Having out-dated linkages, crap powervalves, undersized disc you would think everyone would be able to ride the wheels off these shitboxes, but in reality Nathan you and I both know this not to be the case, and in fact its a very good rider indeed that can push a pre90 bike to the limit, the same rider would most likely be able to do the same with a new bike and I doubt that the lap times would have a big difference. In fact, I would like to know the lap times of all the different classes raced at Conondale, it would make for interesting reading.
Brad this is true, and even at some places evo(or our pre81) is over stepping the make, but since I didnt make the rules, I just have to abide by them. As it stands now over here with pre86 I'm happy to say its a good mix (even tho Bill will disagree) and since the linkage/watercooled bikes are here I wouldnt change it. But I wouldnt be inviting newer era's either.
No, for me pre90 just isnt Vintage.
But in reality the true vintage air cooled drum braked era has been over stepped in your case DJ via '86 cut off and even in Oz with pre 85. An '84 cr250 in a purists eyes is not vintage with its linkage, disc brake and water cooling. All the ingredients of a modern. They could be run together as a class (pre 85 and 90). I am for it but not in any hurry to run it.
Agree totally, DJ and Eno. Drum brakes, air cooled and twinshock (plus early Yamaha monoshocks). By all means race the later stuff, just don't call it VMX.
The aircooled twin shock ship should cut itself free & sail off. Leaving the "post classic" classes to do their own thing - PCMXWow, talk about a hot topic! I had three pages to read just to catch up.
The truth of the matter is that the glory days are over, there will NEVER AGAIN be large numbers of Pre '75 bikes turning up to race meetings, unless it's for one or two specialist events per year. The guys I know that are fans of the older bikes are tired. Still love their bikes but are over the racing side to a large degree
I think the pre 75,70,65,60 movement is here to stay, same are saying resurgent.
Another way too look at it,
If it was a Poodle Club would you let German Sheppard enters.I think not. :o
One point to take into consideration is the type of track design suiting the various classes. It's a fact that pre 75s are not suited to tracks which even EVOs take in their stride. How long will pre 90 riders be satisfied with natural terrain tracks which offer no challenge to their machines.Same argument was used against Evo, and then again against pre-85.
you just have to go with what suites to keep your memmbers cominmg back
Exactly and this is a fine line and as any club hopes, that they come back for more as we know that's what keeps a club running,members.
Nathan, how does not wanting a pre90 class become irrational? Please explain the "concept" of VMX as you see it, because my modern 2006 bike has radiators(watercooling) with plastic shrouds, a safety seat up to the petrol cap, disc brakes, linkage suspenion, if it was a 2 stroke it would have a powervalve. What are the differences with your pre90 bike??
Indeed, its the irrationality that is frustrating me, moreso than the issue itself.Nathan, myself and others have offered up opinions that we feel are valid but because you disagree you are calling us irrational. Your opinion is well articulated but holds no more rationality than mine, DJs or any one else. Because we have different opinions to you does not make us irrational. I think I articulated my reasons against a pre 90 class reasonably well. Ditto quite a few others. Disagreeing is fine but calling our arguments irrational shows an inability to accept differing opinion.
This is so detrimental to the vintage racing movement it actually maked me quite angry. This is another victory for the self interest factions who have no interest in the long term health of the sport as long as their selfish wants are addressed. How long is it going to be before some self absorbed ''what about me'' dickhead calls for a pre 2000 class because he's got a YZ400F sitting around the shed doing nothing. All of the sheep will say "Yay, What a great idea" and put another nail in the coffin of all of the earlier under subscribed classes.
I have no problem with the gradual introduction of new divisions as long as it's done without damaging the growth potential of earlier classes. New divisions should only be introduced when the existing class starts to show a decline in entry levels and interest. Despite Nathan calling it nonsense, the pre '85 class hasn't had a chance to establish itself yet and now it's being gazumped before it even has a proper space in the rulebook.
Nathan that still doesn't make your opinion any more rational or valid than anybody elses.
Nathan self interest factions can be a long and strong force,withstanding a barrage of bullshitNathan that still doesn't make your opinion any more rational or valid than anybody elses.
Yep. Absolutely.
But I'm willing to explain how I've come to form my opinions, and why I think they are defensible.
And the way I figure it, if we're trying to do the best thing for the sport (rather than allowing it to be at the mercy of any "self interest factions"), then all of this analysis is really important.
To simply say "I don't like it, and that's all that needs to be said" is selling the whole sport short. Its also a big part of the reason why this topic keeps on being revisited, with no real resolution.
I know plenty of people with pre-75 racers who won't race them (or race them very sparingly) simply because its too hard to find parts.This is a total Furphy. I've been around vintage motocross for 24 years and have built a large and varied number of bikes. During that time I've hardly had any problem finding parts. My 350 Maico is extremely rare, only 100 or so made and I've never been at a loss for parts for her. With the exception of Elsinore transmission parts and TM125 ignition covers, I can't think of many parts that aren't readily available for most bikes. I'm certain that some forum members will bring up some parts that can't be found but with the internet becoming the worlds biggest bike shop, you'd be pretty unlucky if you couldn't eventually find what you're looking for. I'll give you a couple of examples.
offering up the old "you can't get parts" chestnut is both wrong and misleading.This is one of my pet hates. One of the joys of restoring old bikes is the hunt for old parts. With Ebay and the ever growing number of aftermarket and NOS parts suppliers turning up, you can find just about everything. I found all the parts to rebuild my Honco for the Moto100 class in Thailand of all places. Sure some parts are getting scarce but if you hang in there long enough and dont get discouraged, it will eventually show up.
all good points except the self interest one,
all things considered, all clubs have to consider how to maintain viability and what suites them.
Since when, would anyone consider a pre 90 bike as vinatge, the debate isnt about renaming these bikes as vintage and SHOULD NEVER BE, it has been put forward as a Demo class, not rewriting the Holy Grail of VMX.
How many events have a support class?, all it is helping to do is cover costs and thus keeping costs down to min for their memmbers. no differant from a modern club offering a vintage class to help fill the gates :D
so you have all gone off track with what really HAS been put forward,
IT WAS NOT PUT FORWARD TO RENAME PRE 90 BIKES AS VINTAGE. or ever class them this way.
My God , i ve just been told the sun hasnt come up today and we are all going to fall in this big hole ;D, support class, who would ever think this one up, what were they thinking
cheers Trev
. In years to come, will a 16yr old on his '08 bike be racing at a vmx meeting in 2025 and discussing how he changed his carb/pipe/ports etc. Do they do that now?
YES THEY DO BUT ONLY A HAND FULL, I THINK ITS ENOUGH TO KEEP IT GOING FOR A FEW YEARS.
DJ 2025 will be interesting to see,I'm defensively going to be around :D ;D
By introducing this as a demo class is the foot in the door to the class becoming ratified. "Little seeds grow into big trees" and what starts in QVMX and VIPER will eventually become the accepted senior class. What the anti pre 90 group are afraid of is that the upper limit is moving forward too fast and that pre 90 is coming in before pre '85 has a chance to blossom, let alone grow. It's been a good debate, with no name calling or temper tantrums. I am personally against the pre 90 class on a number of levels but also understand the clubs reasons for introducing it. What I think is more important is the preservation of the traditional classes such as pre '75 and pre '65. These classes are the foundation of our sport and they need to be maintained at all cost. There are a lot of good young brains out there in the VMX community that should be working towards keeping our sports original concept in good health rather than looking for new classes. The West Aussies have shown that the traditional vintage classes can not only survive but can grow.
To me that is far more important than debating pre 90.
Damn shorelinemc got in before me ,I was thinking exactly the same thing.I'll have to think of another analogy.This thread has been a good read and I think its good for us that we can express our views on this forum.Firko leading the Heavy Brigade of VMX stalwarts and Emperor Nathan trying to convince him to come over to the Pre-90 darkside.If IT is to be pistols at dawn,Gentlemen choose your seconds!
There may not be too many more major advancements it technology to create a big gap between the 1990’s bikes and current day bikes to warrant people wanting to start something for those bikesIn the future everything will be electric.
In the future everything will be electric.
Anything with an internal combustion engine will be Historic.
We will be brewing our own fuel in our back yard so that we can race them.
There has been a lot of good and bad points point forward from both sides of the arguments. Being relatively new to VMX, I would only offer this opinion;
I think we are all loosing site of why we are in the sport! IT'S ALL JUST ABOUT RIDING BIKES AND HAVING FUN, NO MATTER WHAT THE BIKE IS OR WHAT YEAR IT WAS MADE, WE DO IT BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE LOVE TO DO. GET ON OUR BIKES AND RIDE THEM OR SIMPLY WORK ON THEM IN THE SHED, SIT AROUND WITH OUR MATES, DRINK BEER AND BENCH RACE!
Let's not loose site of the simplicity of being a motorcycle enthusiast!
I've been reading back over this debate this morning and I think that we've all made our thoughts pretty clear on both subjects. I found one small point that Nathan has raised a couple of times that I feel needs to be questioned.....QuoteI know plenty of people with pre-75 racers who won't race them (or race them very sparingly) simply because its too hard to find parts.This is a total Furphy. I've been around vintage motocross for 24 years and have built a large and varied number of bikes. During that time I've hardly had any problem finding parts.
....
not one comment about the pre 90 Motul girls? Haphazard! i think NOT, proative is a better word.
until this point everybody rolls along doing what they must with no guideance from the Gods of VMX!, not a peep, but then how dare we.
Back to the Motul girls, could the gods please advise if they want grandma's or pre 90 girls for this event?
For example: Evo 1 or Pre78 encompasses the early long travel bikes that really hadn’t figured it all out yet. Evo2- is what I call the “original recipe” because it is what we started with; air-cooled, drum brake and no linkage. Evo 3- is the pre-disc brake era (the introduction of disc brakes is a huge advancement). Evo 4- is Pre-90. Decade is anything 10 years old and older.
Finding decent Yamaha 34mm fork legs has been a real struggleNathan...This is your lucky day. If the forks on my DT1F are OK (BELOW) you can have them for free. In fact you can have everything I'm not using which at this stage will be everything except the seat and engine. Just come and pick it up. Remember though that these bikes very old and have usually been to hell and back so to find a set of forks that don't need rechroming is almost a religious experience. Not everything can be done on the cheapo, for any age division. My point is still that from experience building bottom dweller cheapo bikes and expensive upmarket blingers, you can usually find the parts eventually. CT1 piston port pistons will be hard to find because 1: they're not a popular bike and 2: they were only produced for a one model stretch. But I bet you'll find one eventually and it won't cost much.
Remember though that these bikes very old and have usually been to hell and back so to find a set of forks that don't need rechroming is almost a religious experience.
And thanks for the offer of the forks, but I've got plenty of rusty 34mm forks alreadyNathan...How do you know they're rusty? ??? I don't even know myself as I haven't seen the bike yet. Like I said, if they're rust free, you can have 'em. The offer stands. If you're not interested I'll donate them to someone else as I don't want to clog the shed up with stuff I'm not using.
I have to also question Nathans retorts over the pre 75 parts side issue. From what I read in his posts, it seems to me that he sees vintage racing as some sort of budget bargain basement form of racing. With some wisdom and lateral thought, you can indeed build a cheap racer. However VMX is not a dirt bike equivalent to fender bender speedway, it's a serious hobby using serious race bikes.
Firko, you can see they're rusty in the pic.So they are..I didn't look hard enough at the photo. No problem.
My CT1 piston example is actually a better one than I thought. What if it was my only race bike? I holed the piston earlier in the year, and still haven't been able to find a replacement. If it was my only race bike, I wouldn't have made it to another race meet all year (broken legs notwithstanding), and who knows how long it will be until I do find oneHaving never had the need to look for a CT1 piston I took your words as fact and accepted that they must be some sort of rarity. However since you still keep harping back to the same lack of CT1 pistons I figured I'd try and help you out and find one for you. Well, how lucky was I! On my first ever attempt I've found 8 CT1 pistons of various size and manufacture on US eBay.
Montesa piston, did I hear you ask what they're worth? Here's one for a 360 Cappra for 40 bucks + $16 shipping. There are about 15 on eBay right now for both 250 and 360. They average about 50 bucks.All Cota's :'(.
i just had an interesting thought while reading Docs post above,
when you take a look around the pre~75 crowd, nearly everyone can rebuild a motor with a toothpick.
the pre-90 boys? well...? i think the bike shops may see a 2nd wave of flouro pink customers ;D