Author Topic: QVMX go Pre '90  (Read 34477 times)

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Offline VMX247

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2008, 10:34:22 am »

This could also have an ongoing effect of Pre 60/Pre 75 pushing the prices up as people choose to collect them instead of ride them.

Also the class entrance for larger events will be affected ,cause the older bikes will have been put to the back of the shed,this is not just in QVMX, but across Australia.
Look what has happened with Pre 68 class's.
Scary stuff I reckon.

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2008, 10:40:15 am »
Allison , the more modern bikes you run on classic events , the less old bikes you will get .  ;)
I am one of them , I would not wreck my old treasured bike on a modern track just to make up numbers for the sake of burning fuel . VMX is not racing no matter what. It should be preserving an era.

Offline VMX247

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2008, 10:50:27 am »
My point excatly YSS,who is going to travel thousand of km to compete against ones self state,on modern track ,when the older class's have no other states in them.

This of course is the future we may be looking at and should well be preserving.

I'll probably be in trouble for saying that now  >:(
women, can't keep there mouths shut ;D
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 09:50:14 pm by vmx247 »
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Offline Nathan S

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2008, 11:06:53 am »
The older bikes in VMX are much, much harder to ride, requiring significantly more rider fitness, bike maintenance and input in general.  The bikes are getting expensive and the engines can be finiky to keep going and hard to get bits for. 

And that's it in a nutshell: Pre-75 is going to die of old age regardless of any other classes we introduce/don't introduce. I'm not wishing it to be so, but based on the above statements, it must be inevitable.

By allowing newer bikes to race, the sport of VMX can keep people active and involved even when they decide that racing their pre-75 bike is too hard to live with.
I know plenty of people with pre-75 racers who won't race them (or race them very sparingly) simply because its too hard to find parts. I know of plenty of others who don't race at all because they're "too old" (not my words). This is natural attrition and has nothing to do with Evo/Pre-85/Pre-90.
And yes, there are plenty of people who fall into either (or both) of those categories who remain active and involved because they've got a newer VMX bike to race - without the newer classes, they'd stay at home, and we'd have even smaller meetings.
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Offline vandy010

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2008, 11:26:25 am »
and who said history doesn't repeat itself?
just as the bikes developed over the years, now, so is our sport it seems.
i'm a pre~75 fan but if i could afford more bikes i'd love an evo and possibly later but i do agree with Bill in that i reckon a pre 90 bike can hold thier own in the moderns, even if only in the novice class.
 :-\
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Offline Nathan S

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2008, 12:15:17 pm »
Anyway, here's a point that I think is very important to the future of VMX. I'd like everyone to read it, and then give yourself at least five minutes to think about it before posting anything in reply to it (even if you agree with me).

It's unquestioned that the late 1980s to mid 1990s was the high tide mark for VMX - easily the time with the most competitors.
Now, the obvious difference between the sport then and the sport now is that back then, bikes were limited to pre-75 or older.
But what other ingredients were there to create 'the perfect storm'?
1. The bikes were cheap, and readily available.
2. The blokes who have a personal history with that era bike, were in their 30s and 40s.
3. The bikes were relatively new, and at least some bikes could be kept running exclusively with bits from the local dealer.
4. There was essentially only one class (given that pre-70 and pre-65 were never huge), so if you were involved, you were on the start grid with other bikes of the same age/capacity.
5. It was a shitty time economically speaking, so lots of people raced VMX because it was significantly cheaper than racing a modern.

OK, looking at those points in a bit more detail:

1. Pre-75 bikes are not cheap or readily available anymore. In fact, the good race bikes in well sorted race-ready condition are $5000 at a minimum. Yes, it's possible to build a pre-75 race bike for under $1000, but only if you've already got a shed full of bits or some generous mates to draw from. And enough spare time (and skills) to perform a thorough rebuild. Nowdays, its unheard of for anyone to pay $500 on a pre-75 beater and race it the next weekend.

2. Those blokes who filled the grids 'back in the day' are now in their mid fifties at the youngest, and many simply aren't interested in pounding their bodies around an MX track. Conversely, the blokes who are in that age bracket where they're old enough to have the kids/wife/finances under control well enough to afford to go bike racing again, while still being keen to bounce their way around an MX track, are the blokes who were originally involved in the modern MX scene in the mid-80s to mid 90s.

3. OK, so even back in 88, some stuff was already unavailable. But (I'm told) that it was possible to walk into your Honda dealer and order 2nd and 3rd geard for a 250 Elsinore... Broadly speaking, you could buy a competitive pre-75 bike and race it with needing to know any secret handshakes or passwords to keep the thing running.

And yes, you're right - there's a lot more re-pro stuff out there nowdays which simplifies things enormously. But even with the simplicity of the internet, it's still several steps more involved than fronting at the parts counter of the local dealer and asking for what you want.
I mean, I'm sure we've all had the conversation with an interested bystander about VMX, and they ask about getting parts for a 25 year old bike, and you say "Yeah, not a problem! You've gotta get pistons from the USA, but they're cheap. Oh, and plastics are impossible to find, but there's a bloke about to start making re-pros".
All that Mr Bystander has really heard is "Can't get plastics, pistons are a drama" and then his obvious though is "Stuff that for a joke! No point in spending all that money and then not being able to use it as soon as the piston wears out!".

4. There's no turning back the clock, like it or not. The pre-75 hard-core racers have happily kept their dream alive - adding another era is not suddenly going to have them saying "Y'know, I love racing my old Bully, and I was never tempted to leave it at home in favour of pre-78, Evo, or pre-85. But hey, now I can race an 87 RM250, and suddenly I have no interest in pre-75"....
In fact, I'm really struggling to think of people who regularly race pre-75 bikes and have shown any interest in even pre-85. The attitude of the pre-75 owners is typically far more like the one shown here: "I have no interest in anything newer than Evo"...
The 'only one era' horse has already bolted, so it doesn't matter how wide you open the gate now.

5. Hmmm... we might be back at that point again, much to everyone's dismay. So the sport of VMX is being handed a gold-plated opportunity to maximise its appeal by being affordable to all of those 30~45 year old blokes who are about to realise that they can't afford a new modern every season... And like it or not, we aren't going to lure them in with old bikes that cost more than they're going to get for their two-seasons-old modern. But we stand a damn good chance of getting them in with bikes from the late 1980s and early 1990s that can be bought in decent, rideable condition any day of the week from Ebay.


I have no doubt that the early days of VMX were an awesome time to be involved, and I fully understand why people lament their passing.
However, we need to look to the future of VMX, rather than forever grumbling into our beers about the good old days of VMX.
Indeed, given the aging demographic of its participants, it should be 'smack in the face' obvious that we need to get some new blood into the sport.
And given that we all regularly lament the younger generations' interest in history, it would seem unlikely that any measures to get bus loads of spotty yoof onto the pre-Evo bikes will be successful (and indeed, we are talking about bus-loads of extra participants to meet the hey-day).
However, appealling to the next generation (ie: Generation X, rather than Y) of potential VMXers would be relatively easy if we take the next step and allow something that already holds some appeal to them - in exactly the same way that VMX appealled to so many people c1990.

Disclaimer: Most people will already know this, but I've got bikes that I (would like to) race that run from pre-70 to modern. This year, I've only raced pre-78 and older and I've enjoyed it hugely - more than previous years when I regularly used my Evo bikes.
In fact, this year I've barely ridden a bike younger than myself, even trail-riding.
So don't even bother trying to write me off as someone with no interest in the older bikes, 'cause it'll be badly misguided.

And remember, take some time chewing over the above before launching into anything.








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kdxman

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2008, 01:48:13 pm »
good morning all

All the comments i have read above , all have merit.

But, all these things where said when pre 85 was introduced, and nothing has changed.
QVMX, still use the same track's and track set up.
They still hold the same start grids and classes, depending on numbers present at the day.
The people who where at the agm, know how the pre 90 debate was raised, as consideration to introduce the class, and after good and involved discussion was tabled to include the class in the club by its members, 39 for and 2 against.
All the pro's and con's where tabled, by one of our members, but  we have heard them all before with pre 85.

Also, i want to see all classes continue on, and they will, but when events have to be cancelled due to lack of numbers, eg Double the dirt, clubs have to do what they need to keep the club alive and running for there menbers, and this is what QVMX does.

The older bikes, (as already stated) , are hard to come by, cost a fortune, and parts are imposible to find and repair.
For vintage mx to continue, we have to look at the future, like other clubs in VIC and NZ. The financial costs to run events, keep going up and up, and unless you have more members, fee's will go up, and you can ges the rest.

I think that the officials at the QVMX ,with the new additions ,will have it all in hand and ensure that it all stays true to the vintage mx we know.

Happy riding.

Offline shorelinemc

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2008, 01:56:14 pm »
why ? too old to worth anything too new too be worth anything a pre 90 is a modern bike full stop bugger all difference to a new bike ok so they are not 4st .i can see pre 85 differrent types  and styles, pre 90 is just a cheap way to go racing ,if you want a modern bike buy one it is vmx not mmx/superx

suzuki43

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2008, 02:01:03 pm »
Before I launch into my 'take' on this subject I would like to state for the record that I have the utmost respect for Firko, DJ and TMBill but that being said I am afraid that I am on the other side of this Pre 90 'fence'......

At the current age of 38 I had no memory of the bikes from 1980 and older.
To me growing up as a kid it was all about guys like Noyce,Thorpe,Barnett,Magoo etc etc and the bikes of the 1980's.
I think that Pre 90 and 85 is the future of the sport given the major issues around getting parts for the older bikes (I used to own a RZ Red Devil so I do know),along with the fact that none of us are getting any younger (sniff sniff I smell a mid life crisis coming on) and as we age, there is a natural progression of the older guys getting out of VMX and taking up lawn bowls and other gentile pursuits.

But hey each to their own.All I know is VMX sure beats mowing the lawns on a Sunday.
 ;D

eno

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2008, 02:17:34 pm »
I've watched the slow but sure change in vmx trends in my short span of 8 years. My appetite is fading more & more as the field looks like that 80's show.
For me pre-75 is very special, the look, the sound...

Offline Nathan S

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2008, 02:39:53 pm »
why ? too old to worth anything too new too be worth anything a pre 90 is a modern bike full stop bugger all difference to a new bike ok so they are not 4st .i can see pre 85 differrent types  and styles, pre 90 is just a cheap way to go racing ,if you want a modern bike buy one it is vmx not mmx/superx

I had been intending to bow out of this discussion, but this is one of the red herrings that's waved around far too often....

Its utter fantasy to argue that an 89 model bike is a patch on a modern (And remember that 89 is the newest allowed in pre-90).
I'm a crap rider, and I can feel - and utilise - the improvements between my 89, 94 and 99 model bikes.
When was the last time any modern event was won by a bike more than a couple of years old?
Why are all of those young, cash-strapped up-and-comers so desperate to get a new bike? Are they retarded?
WTF have the factories been doing for the last 20 years if the current fare isn't significantly better than what they were producing back then?

If you were to take a superficial look at pre-75 and pre-65 bikes you could come to a similarly dodgy conclusion that there were no/minimal differences between them....

Can we finally drive a stake through the heart of the simplistic nonsense that says that any pre-90 bike is remotely competitive with a modern MXer?
Even when modified using 2008 parts and knowledge, you've still got under-sized discs, crappy first generation USD forks, outdated rear linkages, old-school ergonomics, and old thinknig 2-stroke designs (short stroke vs the far more recent long stroke, relatively poor power valves etc).

Quote
I've watched the slow but sure change in vmx trends in my short span of 8 years. My appetite is fading more & more as the field looks like that 80's show.
For me pre-75 is very special, the look, the sound...
Why do other people's actions alter what you do/like?
Serious, non-loaded question - reading between the lines, it seems that lots of others have a similar view. But having bikes that you're not interested in participate in a race meet, is only a problem if you make it a problem, surely?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 02:45:18 pm by Nathan S »
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Offline cyclegod

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2008, 02:43:48 pm »
If you are a Die-Hard pre-75 purist then move to W.A, we have NO pre-78, NO pre-81, NO pre-85 let alone pre-90 and no plans to EVER introduce them. The effort to get a EVO club started but fizzled out quickly as there would have only been 10-20 riders/machines in the state (apparently a lot were sold to eastern staters because the market price was high). Good luck to those that want to see it start and condolences to those who hate the idea.

Ban BLACK rims NOW

Offline Rossvickicampbell

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2008, 02:56:24 pm »
the old saying "vote with your feet" will apply.  I like and ride my pre 75 (although just before my time as a kid), I am not interested in pre 70, would love to ride something pre 85 (when it gets going CG in WA) but realise there are a number out there that like different eras and they will ride what they want.  Each to their own - I just hope numbers in the "harder to use, ride, maintain eras dont dwindle and eventually numbers will be so big overall there will have to be separate championships coz they all cant ride on the same day.

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Yamaboy

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2008, 03:57:15 pm »
So, let me get this straight, Pre 90 is to become the new pre 85 which was to become the new Evo but it ain't any more because it's bee replaced. What happens to pre '85 now? With all of your well thought out logic Nathan, you've yet to address what we are to do with all of these classes. I fully understand the reasons for moving the goal posts but now we've got three classes covering a ten year time span.
I think this discussion is being diverted into a pre 75 V pre 90 direction when the real discussion should be about what to do with pre '85. We all know that the pre '75 division has been so badly handled by clubs here on the east coast that it's really battling to stay alive. One only has to look towards WA to realise that it could and should have been better promoted.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 04:18:03 pm by Yamaboy »

firko

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2008, 04:13:09 pm »
Quote
Non competition ride days would solve all this
  Touche' Ross. I totally agree with everything you wrote. The only time I've seen anything like the spirit of vintage racings 88-98 glory days has been at all of the Classic Dirt events. I fully understand a blokes need to race but sometimes this is all taken too seriously. If you added up the race laps the old Kevlars have under their bums you could reach the moon and many of us have become jaded with racing. Classic Dirt however has inspired and pumped us enough to keep building bikes purely for non competition days and the occasional proper race. Getting together with old bike loving mates is what it's about, not trophy hunting.

It may appear that I hate pre '90 but that's not altogether true. I'm in the process of buying a nice '88 (secret ;)) to add to the stable. I just think that this is all about two years too soon, that's all. I figure that 2011 would be a perfect time to bring it in. Meanwhile promote the fork out of Evo and Pre '85 (something that's never been done, no mater which club or state we are in) and bring them to their true full potential.