QVMX go Pre '90

[Nathan S]

Are we, as Vintage Motocrossers' preserving bikes in an era in time or preserving the racing of old bikes??

I'd say that we should be doing both.

Of course its important that we preserve the older-era VMX bikes, but if we wait until 2036 before we place any historical value on pre-90, then they'll all have disappeared and we'll all be standing around scratching our melons, wondering how we let that happen.

And I still dispute that - given equally talented riders with an equal familiarity of their bikes - any pre-90 bike has a hope in hell against a modern on an MX track (even a grass track).
But I'm not sure if I understand why that would be a problem anyhow.

[DJRacing]

I had been intending to bow out of this discussion, but this is one of the red herrings that's waved around far too often....

Its utter fantasy to argue that an 89 model bike is a patch on a modern (And remember that 89 is the newest allowed in pre-90).
I'm a crap rider, and I can feel - and utilise - the improvements between my 89, 94 and 99 model bikes.
When was the last time any modern event was won by a bike more than a couple of years old?
Why are all of those young, cash-strapped up-and-comers so desperate to get a new bike? Are they retarded?
WTF have the factories been doing for the last 20 years if the current fare isn't significantly better than what they were producing back then?

If you were to take a superficial look at pre-75 and pre-65 bikes you could come to a similarly dodgy conclusion that there were no/minimal differences between them....

Can we finally drive a stake through the heart of the simplistic nonsense that says that any pre-90 bike is remotely competitive with a modern MXer?
Even when modified using 2008 parts and knowledge, you've still got under-sized discs, crappy first generation USD forks, outdated rear linkages, old-school ergonomics, and old thinknig 2-stroke designs (short stroke vs the far more recent long stroke, relatively poor power valves etc).




Nathan, I wasnt the one who brought up the arguement about how good or how bad a pre90 bike is, but you asked the question that they wouldnt run with mordern bikes. I know what I have seen, and I have seen, on a natural terrian track (that I rode, and not very well) that was a tough track, a '85 RM125 racing in A grade 250cc 4 stroke and he kicked ass. But now you say "equally talented" riders equally familiar with their bikes?? A bike will only go as fast, jump as high, bust a berm as the riders ability will allow. Having out-dated linkages, crap powervalves, undersized disc you would think everyone would be able to ride the wheels off these shitboxes, but in reality Nathan you and I both know this not to be the case, and in fact its a very good rider indeed that can push a pre90 bike to the limit, the same rider would most likely be able to do the same with a new bike and I doubt that the lap times would have a big difference. In fact, I would like to know the lap times of all the different classes raced at Conondale, it would make for interesting reading.

Brad this is true, and even at some places evo(or our pre81) is over stepping the make, but since I didnt make the rules, I just have to abide by them. As it stands now over here with pre86 I'm happy to say its a good mix (even tho Bill will disagree) and since the linkage/watercooled bikes are here I wouldnt change it. But I wouldnt be inviting newer era's either.

No, for me pre90 just isnt Vintage.

[eno]

The aircooled twin shock ship should cut itself free & sail off. Leaving the "post classic" classes to do their own thing - PCMX

[Heikki360]

Agree totally, DJ and Eno. Drum brakes, air cooled and twinshock (plus early Yamaha monoshocks). By all means race the later stuff, just don't call it VMX.

[TM BILL]

But in reality the true vintage air cooled drum braked era has been over stepped in your case DJ via '86 cut off and even in Oz with pre 85. An '84 cr250 in a purists eyes is not vintage with its linkage, disc brake and water cooling. All the ingredients of a modern. They could be run together as a class (pre 85 and 90). I am for it but not in any hurry to run it.

Brad your right  :)but just because we fuct up once doesn't mean we should do it again , why dont the owners of anything post 1980 ask there local modern club to run a class for them.

[TM BILL]

Agree totally, DJ and Eno. Drum brakes, air cooled and twinshock (plus early Yamaha monoshocks). By all means race the later stuff, just don't call it VMX.

Very well said Richard 

[worms]

so what do we call Vinduro now, because its pre 90 bikes but is that all right? I think the debate is right on the money both ways and i hope to see it get away from what the sport is called. Pre 85 came about as a nescesity to ensure costs were meet to run race meets, do we just sit and wait till clubs find it harder to compete for avaiable dollars as they try to outdo each other for events, is it to early for Pre 90, or is it the debate 2 years too soon , we could be all pushung up daisy's by then. I dont think its going to bring 50 more riders to a club, but i do think there are a lot memmbers with Pre 90 bikes they would like to ride as well, so let the debate continue but i dont think its a National movement for Pre 90 to take over the world .

keep it coming guys

Trev

[Wombat]

The aircooled twin shock ship should cut itself free & sail off. Leaving the "post classic" classes to do their own thing - PCMX

Wow, talk about a hot topic! I had three pages to read just to catch up.
All debate so far has been well put and considered thinking - excellent! No hissy fits. 

Eno's comment (above) and Heikki's suggestion to call the sport something other than VMX is my fear for the Vintage/Classic sport as it stands. 
By the end of page one I was thinking of the West Australian situation.
I log onto their web sites occasionally and the pre '75 stuff is huge. Evo is another organisation altogether.
At least that's how it appears to me looking from miles away.
I get the impression the older bike Club and their riders have no intention of watering down their 'Vintage/Classic' ideal.

So now I'm concerned a split may be on the horizon.
A separation of the twin shocked, drum braked, air cooled bikes that defined an era.
A separation from those bikes that came after...and isn't that what VMX is about?
That's what I was told when I lobbed up to watch my first VMX (QVMX) event near Tamborine.
 
The pre '85 ers have entered the arena and are here to stay, but at least they look like old school MXers.
I forget who mentioned the pre '90 s look like moderns - but he's correct.

Anyhoos, I can see and understand both sides of the debate, but if I have to pick a side then I'm with the old schoolers.
Preserving an era is what I believe VMX is about. There's a set of brackets around that time period and I'd prefer we stop stretching it.
Stretch it too far and it will break. :'(

[magoo]

What a wonderful idea it would for a split between the two eras. Let's have a look 5 years down the track when the Classic guys are constantly going through the Double the Dirt syndrome where they are cancelling meetings due to lack of entrys, and the "Post Classic" meetings are running with healthy numbers. The truth of the matter is that the glory days are over, there will NEVER AGAIN be large numbers of Pre '75 bikes turning up to race meetings, unless it's for one or two specialist events per year. The guys I know that are fans of the older bikes are tired. Still love their bikes but are over the racing side to a large degree

I agree with Firko that Pre '85 still hasn't reached anywhere its potential, but by the look of the Conondale Classic this year where there was full grids Pre '85 500s and full grids of Pre '85 250s, it's getting there. Seems to me the Pre '75 guys here a scared shitless of Pre '90. Why, I don't understand your "Sky is falling" attitude. If you really hate the thought of Pre '90 then run your own Pre '78 meetings, it's easy if you really want to. It was only a few years ago that some of you guys hate the thought of Evo.

We must move with the times, otherwise the sport as a whole will eventually wither and die.



 

[Gerard De Ruyter (Twistandshout)]

ACT bike club wanted to keep up the interest in the old bikes so made a change from their previous Pre-85 class to a new one - which is specific-year based.  Old School - no USD or rear discs.  Which is good as it set technology as the boundary not a year.  And allows a much wider range of bikes in for the fun. 

I ride a 1986 CR250 because I ride club events more than anything (including Over-35 - next year to be Over-45!!!) and only have one bike, so this is a terrific compromise for me.  Last race last Sunday I scored third in Old School and 12th in Over 35 (out of 38 riders....35 of which were on '07-'08 machines).  It works for me!  I miss out on HEAVEN events but seeing half of them are north of Sydney I wouldn't get to them anyway.  I must admit I do like the thrill of racing still (only been doing it 5 years) as much as or more than just being around old bikes.

Suspect over time, most states will go the way of Vic, with vintage clubs and post-vintage clubs each doing their own thing.  And if you got bikes for both, you double your fun.

[STW996]

Exellent points Magoo must have had just the right amount of the amber fluid last night

I have started typing another entry for this thread and each time have deleted it but Trev is spot on with the one thing everone is overlooking cost!! People who want to get into the sport don't want to pay 5K up for a bike and then have to wait for parts every time it doesn't go, they want to jump on and ride, a couple of you have said cheap skates not wanting to pay for a new bike and want to get into racing through pre 90 to save money? well look how many want to moto 100 (another thread) is this not the same?? at least give people the option.

One of the best run and growing events in Australia is the Muscle Car masters at Eastern creek (sorry a car event I know) and each year they add another class in to "keep the sport growing", head in the sand mantalities will no grow the sport, but there in lies the problem, some do not wish it to grow and that is the underlying problem.

Well I for one would go with post classic and run and enjoy it, Queensland has two clubs QVMX that is going gang busters (catering for all and I mean all riders come what may) and the Brisbane Club who can not make numbers to run events (not just the double the dirt they could not run championship classes at the state title due to a lack of numbers as well for championship status).

As I have said before I just enjoy all bikes and the blokes who ride them.

Shane

[eno]

The truth of the matter is that the glory days are over, there will NEVER AGAIN be large numbers of Pre '75 bikes turning up to race meetings, unless it's for one or two specialist events per year. The guys I know that are fans of the older bikes are tired. Still love their bikes but are over the racing side to a large degree

 Well there ya go, you have summed up my mood & direction.

Have fun & race your brains out.

[VMX247]

Another way too look at it,
If it was a Poodle Club would you let German Sheppard enters.I think not.

If you read this thread its like a plate of spaghetti......A mess.
Youv'e got more class's than ya can poke a stick at and hopefully when the time comes the  amount of folks and riders to even run an event.

Way too early for pre 90, I say.There only as old as my niece for god sake.
Have a good day discussing, I'm off to work to pay for our classic mx habit.  

[211kawasaki]

Eno / Magoo

why then can VMXWA get 100+ pre 75 to a club day?
why is pre 65 so strong in England and Europe?
why is the pre75 pre 78 equilivants so strong in the US?

Im not suggesting that there isnt a case for pre 90, I have an opinion on that as well, but there shouldnt be an expectation that its not possible to maintain pre 75 in its current form.

There has to be an acceptance of pre 85 first, these more modern classes can run as a nationals stand alone - say pre 85, EVO and pre 78 with modern support for example but to say that pre 75 is over is ignorance.

Being one of the early starters in the sport - since 89 and one of the 1st half dozen members of QVMX, I seen a lot of changes and a lot come and go. I think the pre 75,70,65,60 movement is here to stay, same are saying resurgent. The risk for the pre90 movement is in the creation of a sport that suits the pre90 movement and no one else.

211

[Nathan S]

I think the pre 75,70,65,60 movement is here to stay, same are saying resurgent.

Hang on a minute... a page or two back, people saying there's a significant decline in the older classes.

How about we accept that (since the introduction of Evo) introducing newer classes has no impact on the older classes?

All of the arguments against pre-90 are emotive to the point of being irrational. It always comes back to "I don't like it" (which is an opinion that everyone is more than entitled to), but the justifications for stopping pre-90 happening are all piss-weak.
There's lots of talk about what could happen, and what might happen, but those exact same arguments were used against pre-80/Evo and then against pre-85, so history has proven that they're nothing more than scare-mongering.

Stop wishing that it was still 1994, 'cause it aint ever going to be so.