Author Topic: QVMX go Pre '90  (Read 34479 times)

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Offline mike1948

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2008, 12:02:57 pm »
One point to take into consideration is the type of track design suiting the various classes.  It's a fact that pre 75s are not suited to tracks which even EVOs take in their stride.  How long will pre 90 riders be satisfied with natural terrain tracks which offer no challenge to their machines.
One track is generally hard enough to prepare & maintain for any club.  Mixed meetings, which are common in the north usually put the older classes on first, when the track is torn up less.
My concern with introducing newer and newer classes will cause an eventual separation into Early VMX, and Late VMX tracks & meetings, to the detriment of both.

Offline Nathan S

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2008, 12:10:04 pm »
Another way too look at it,
If it was a Poodle Club would you let German Sheppard enters.I think not. :o

I missed this post the first time... its a good point. Let's look at it another way:

Imagine you're a member of an established Poodle club. Its the only dog club in town, so its called the Town Dog Club. The club has been on a slow decline for the last 15 years, to the point that some people are questioning how long it can continue (others disagree with them, but the situation is such that the questions are being asked).
There are plenty of poodle owners around town who aren't really interested in the dog club scene for any of a million reasons - their dog is often sick, they're no longer interested, whatever. And the club hasn't been able to lure them back, despite actively trying.

Then imagine that a few of the members say "Hey, we've got German Sheperds too. Can we bring them along? We don't want to take over the poodle club or anything, we just want come and join in the activities and the fun. Most of us will still bring our poodles. We'd be happy to start our own club, but there aren't enough of us".

Do you think the poodle owners would react so negatively?
Would they obsess over whether its OK to allow bigger dogs into the Town Dog Club?
Or would they take the moment to think, and figure that they'd be able to enjoy their hobby with other people who have an interest that is more similar than different?  
Would they figure out that the absolute worst case scenario means that the club will end up being more about German Sheperds than Poodles, but hey, wey'll still be more than welcome to do our own poodle thing?

Quote
One point to take into consideration is the type of track design suiting the various classes.  It's a fact that pre 75s are not suited to tracks which even EVOs take in their stride.  How long will pre 90 riders be satisfied with natural terrain tracks which offer no challenge to their machines.
Same argument was used against Evo, and then again against pre-85.
Reality is that the riders inevitably prefer natural terrain tracks, regardless of what era bike they're riding.
The mid~late 90s success of the Thumper Nats proof of this (hmmm... pre-99... there's a VMX class to consider! ;D ) - and the average age of ThumperNats riders was considerably lower than the average age of VMX riders (even VMXers 15 years ago)!
« Last Edit: October 24, 2008, 12:13:27 pm by Nathan S »
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Offline jimg1au

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2008, 12:38:17 pm »
NATHAN
my 2 germanshepherds would most likey eat the poodtes.but they are only yound and no no different.

Offline Nathan S

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2008, 12:55:19 pm »
 :D Well... the analogy falls down there... But if anyone owns a bike that actually, literally eats other bikes, I've got a whole heap of pit bikes for it to meet...
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firko

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2008, 01:32:14 pm »
This discussion has morphed into two seperate issues, the need for pre 90 and the sustainability of pre '75. I've made my thoughts quite clear on the pre 90 issue in my earlier post. All of the well argued subsequent posts, both for and against, have done nothing to alter my stance. In fact, I feel even more strongly that by introducing the pre '90 division now or within the next three years will be a huge mistake, on a number of levels.

The sustainability of pre '75 is a seperate issue altogether and shouldn't have been dragged into this. However since we've opened discussion I'll put my 2 bobs worth in.
I agree with Eno that the the glory days of pre '75 have gone and we on the East coast probably won't be experiencing the glory days of 100 plus entries again. There are three major causes for this downturn, the first being natural atrition. a thirty year old in 1988 would now be fifty and most of the first generation racers would be in their mid fifties to early sixties. My Klub Kevlar buddies and I fit into that demographic and although we still love building and riding our old bikes, most of us have cut back severely on the motocross because it's become physically too hard. We still throw a leg over for the occasional dirt track as it's less taxing on the system (and the bikes).

The above demographic has had a direct impact on the second reason for the pre'75 decline. In a catch 22 situation, clubs are catering less and less for the older classes because less and less riders turn up to ride those classes. HEAVEN have included the pre'75, pre 70 and pre '65 divisions in their race programs but with the exception of the Crawford River Classic, riders aren't turning up. Races with two or four riders isn't a good look and those "races" take up time that could be better utilised by the later class majority. Understandably, the clubs need to cater to that majority so the track choices tend to favour the long travel bikes. You'd have to be a pre '75 tragic and as fit as Arnold Swarzenegger to want to race a pre '75 bike at Clarence for instance. The more these modern style tracks are used, the less  pre '75 bikes will show up. Catch 22.

The third problem with the pre '75 movement is apathy. Riders winge and whine about how they don't get a fair go at race meetings but when a club genuinely goes out of its way to cater for the pre '75 guys, they more times than not repay the club by not showing up. This ruins it for any further special favours from the club. It's not always totally the pre '75 rider fault though.
When the Crawford River Classic was developed a few years ago it was designed to showcase the pre '65. pre '70 and pre 75 divisions and feature the later classes as a support on a seperate track. The first event went off so well with many old first generation pre '75 racers coming back and getting right behind the concept. Then there were some less than satisfactory heirachy changes in HEAVEN and all of a sudden the happy, friendly vibe that had been the CRC became a two day bitch session with the pre '75 blokes pushed into the background. By the third event many of those those old school pre '75 blokes that had come back found that the pre '75 classes had been relegated to a support role and that being shouted at and treated rudely wasn't the way they'd been treated in the past so they once again moved away from the sport. Thankfully the rude and antagonistic dictator has now gone from HEAVENs management and a new friendly and approachable group are running the show. This years CRC saw a welcome return to the pre '75 classes being the focus for the event so we can hope that we will see those old schoolers come back next year.

Which brings me to the crux of the debate. Is pre '75 sustainable and can it be revived. The short answer is a resounding yes to both questions. The pre '75 divisions are the heart and history of our sport and need to be kept alive. It's not going to be easy but it can be done.

* The first and foremost way to revive the pre '75 division is to lessen the number of events. For the class to be successful it has to seperate it from being a novelty add on to an Evo/Pre '85 meeting. The Pre '75 classes should limit their starts to two stand alone motocross meetings a year. The Crawford River Classic with it's Roy East (pre '65), John Hine (pre '70) and Geoff Eldridge (pre '75) trophies should be promoted as the showpiece of the division. It should be drummed up to be the biggest thing since the parting of the seas with press and internet promotion for six months leading up to the meet. The pre'75 punters need to be convinced that this event is their Woodstock. Non competitive on track parades for those riders past their racing prime who want to show off their bikes on the track, special appearances by famous past racers like Antony Gunter aboard an RH, Gally on his YZA, John Berhens on one of Husky 67s beauties, Per Klitland on a Maico...you get the drift. Include a swap meet, bike show'n'shine and pissup at the pub and pretty soon you've got the Condo vibe that was emerging at the fIrst CRC. With that event plus the VMX Nats, Honda Broadford Bike Bonanza, Classic Dirt and the Vintage Dirt Track Nats, you'd only have enough room for one more quality pre '75 meeting. Perhaps Brisbane clubs ill fated Double the Dirt, or something similar could fill the small remaining void.

*For these events to succeed we need to really drum up the pre '75 community. There needs to be a whole new recruitment drive. Retired riders need to be convinced that there is still fun to be had with their bikes, even if they are past racing. That's where the non competitive aspect of the events needs to be pushed. Even though these riders aren't actually racing per se, their very presense in the pits and at the social gathering adds to the numbers and therefore the atmosphere. From that non competitive portion of the event we may get some guys who may get the racing bug back.

*We need to encourage younger, modern riders to enter the pre 75 division by emphasising the challenge of riding these old bikes. I've see many younger riders get a pleasant surprise from riding bikes that they'd previously thought to be 'old dungers'. If you've got an old bike and don't wish to race any more, offer an Evo/pre '85 rider a chance to race the bike for you. I've actually taken that step and I've found it to be fun and rewarding.

The continuing growth of the pre '75 movement in WA shows that if managed properly the division can be quite successful on its own. With the introduction of pre '90 into the fold it's now imperative that the pre '75 movement break away and manage their own future. The division needs good forward thinking leadership who aren't afraid to try something new. These bikes are the true heart and soul of what vintage racing is about and with a bit of luck and a lot of enthusiasm we can give that heart the bypass it needs to continue into the future as our sports premier class.



magoo

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2008, 02:13:47 pm »
Totally agree big fella. The hard part is finding someone willing to do the hard yards and actually organise the events. I really hope to be proved wrong, but my prediction is that 5 years down the track we'll be going through this all over again.
I'm sure the Penrith Club would welcome a whole lot of newcomer Pre '75 enthusiasts with open arms to re-invigorate the interest that has been waning over the last few years

ted

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2008, 03:34:49 pm »
For f...ks sake How long do we want to make a Sunday last?

Are we gonna have Scrutineering at 3am Practice at 5am and Racing going till 10 pm or are we going to give the holeshot winner first place so we can all get home at a respectable hour.

In my opinion Pre 75 to Pre 85 takes a full day. Who wants to flag a Pre 2010 race at midnight on a Sunday in years to come? I`m sure there are others like me who have to re-pack the truck on a Sunday night to work the next day.   End of rant.

Offline Graeme M

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #67 on: October 24, 2008, 03:41:24 pm »
I like Firko's reasoning, and I agree with so much of what has already been written. But we now seem to be talking NSW.

As has been noted, Pre75 is alive and well in WA, Victoria, NZ, and probably 'the rest of the world' etc. It's OK in Qld as far as I can see too. The original post about QVMX going Pre 90, isn't so much an issue as they have always been more Evo/Pre 85 anyways and they weren't advocating the rest of the country follow suit. And doesn't VIPER already have Pre 90? In Qld BMCC covers Pre 75 pretty well.

But NSW - different story. Or so it seems to me. So tell me, have we meandered off onto a tangent where we are once again debating VMX in NSW? Cos I sure don't think Pre 75 has died anywhere else, and I can't see QVMX having a Pre 90 class as the end of the world. The question of whether Pre 90 is 'vintage' is a different one.

And as I have said before, I think Pre 90 is valid, but it's not vintage. I reckon we should quarantine Pre 75 as true Vintage, and talk about the other classes as 'Post Vintage' or 'Post Classic' or whatever the nomenclature is. Because the idea of racing Over 20 year old bikes is entirely reasonable. But so too is the idea that Vintage MX is about a very specific period, ie up to 1975 when twin shock, 7/4" travel went out the door...

So... if we talk HEAVEN, we could have two or three rounds of true Vintage at places like Bulahdelah, and two or three rounds of 'Post Vintage' at Kembla and ACT. That means less spreading people too thinly, less competition between events, and a more period specific flavour. Plenty of 'biggies' to address all classes such as CD, Nats, Connondale Classic etc...

worms

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2008, 03:44:24 pm »
i dont see how anyone can say that if they introduce pre 90, all of a sudden our grass tracks will be turned into supercross tracks for 20 or so bikes, get real about this as every club falls over backwards to keep Pre 75 going , as in a 2 whole days track prep at the Classic this year taking out jumps and grooming to keep them coming back and look at whats happened in Brisbane with poor showing for them at 2 events, and they are a pre 75 club, so what are we supposed to do all shove our heads in the ground because it dosent sit well with the purists and watch clubs struggle because they get compared to WA, its about the whole sport and i dont think you can compare any one state to another, you just have to go with what suites to keep your memmbers cominmg back, too many events thins numbers out not another class.
im starting to think why all the whinging
Trev

Harro

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #69 on: October 24, 2008, 04:11:17 pm »
I havent used the forum for a long time and I sit back and read the goings on....I have pre 70,pre 75 and pre 85 bikes I like the pre 70 and 75 as in 1969 when I was fourteen I had a BSA Bantam bush bike and when working as an apprentice from fifteen onwards I earned the princely sum of $13.00 a week in 1970 and I couldnt afford to have the bikes I own now and in those days they were common like the 450 four stroke are now!!
I also have a 1983 Husky 500 XC as when in my early to late thirties I raced enduro and these were quite a weapon so these days I am not a trophy hunter and I enjoy riding bikes I could never have as a kid and I have the Husky mainly for the vinduro which is a heap of fun ride at your own pace enjoy your follow like minded mates company after the day is done.
I also ride a pre 75 suzuki for dirt track as it is easier on old farts bodies
To me thats why its vintage and good luck to the QVMX guys as they are a great mob of blokes and I wish them well with their pre 90 adventure but to me if I was mid thirty something and my budget was for a pre 90 bike then I would follow the amcross or local club MX days as my eyes a 89 model bike with good power brakes suspension is agood enough to be at the pointy end if the rider has the nuts to be there.
Harro

magoo

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #70 on: October 24, 2008, 05:07:45 pm »
I guess you're right there Graeme, it has somehow morphed into a N.S.W. commentary. I've raced a few events in N.S.W., Qld and Victoria over the last few years and to me N.S.W. is lagging behind the others.

I reckon the reason is that Qld and Vicco have active Vintage AND Post Vintage clubs, where in N.S.W. we have Penrith, a mainly Pre '75 based club, who do a couple of Dirt Tracks a year, and Heaven who try to keep everyone happy by running all classes and way too many events throughout the year. If more guys put their hand up and helped clubs like Penrith I'm sure things will improve.

I really do think Graeme is right in running less, but better meetings.

I reckon all classes up to Pre '90 are justified but it is impossible to run them on the same track at the one meeting. It's time for the classic guys to put their hand up and help run a few Pre '75 meetings in N.S.W. As the first Crawford River Classic and the frist Pre '75 Dirt Track at Nepean a couple of years ago proved, you provide a good meeting for the classics, they will come.

magoo

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #71 on: October 24, 2008, 05:08:32 pm »
Welcome back young Harro, we missed you last night. :P

Offline HuskyPete

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #72 on: October 24, 2008, 05:22:07 pm »
Harro, now you have just got to work out how to start the Husky 500XC ;D ;D ;D ;D
1967 360 Viking, 1969 360 Cross, 1974 250 Mag x 3, 1974 400 Cross x 1, 1974 450 WR, 1975 250GP, 1976 250 WR, 1978 390 Auto, 1982.5 500 Gold Bullet. 1976 390 OR, 78 CCM

Offline VMX247

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #73 on: October 24, 2008, 05:43:12 pm »
you just have to go with what suites to keep your memmbers cominmg back



Exactly and this is a fine line and as any club hopes, that they come back for more as we know that's what keeps a club running,members.



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Offline DJRacing

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Re: QVMX go Pre '90
« Reply #74 on: October 24, 2008, 06:00:12 pm »
So the question remains; "To Pre90 or Not

To clear up a few things first on my own personal opinion of any and all bikes, I like them, I have a couple of pre86 bikes, I have a 2006 4 stroke modern bike. So I am not anti these bikes.
The question of pre75 rider's/owners being scared or anything else about pre90 doesnt even come into the equation. Why would they??
Does West Oz have it right with only pre75?? If you want to go vintage racing then you buy a vintage bike.

Nathan, how does not wanting a pre90 class become irrational? Please explain the "concept" of VMX as you see it, because my modern 2006 bike has radiators(watercooling) with plastic shrouds, a safety seat up to the petrol cap, disc brakes, linkage suspenion, if it was a 2 stroke it would have a powervalve. What are the differences with your pre90 bike??

STW996, How much does it cost to get into the muscle car racing? Ask Nathan the cost of his pre75 bikes?
Do not confuse wanting to go motocross racing with the love of old dirtbikes, as is with the moto100 talked about in this forum, as that is a class for pre75, and isnt a club better to persue this avenue which is more infitting with the concept of VMX and is cheap (which could entice younger members) than adding a Pre90 class??
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