QVMX go Pre '90

[mainline]

I graduated in '88, that makes me feel vintage!

[Nathan S]

My bold:

Remember though that these bikes very old and have usually been to hell and back so to find a set of forks that don't need rechroming is almost a religious experience.

This is exactly what I've been saying - the older a bike is, the more times its been to hell and back! A typical pre-90 bike has only been halfway to hell and back!

It stands to reason that the newer a bike is, the less likely it is to have spent time as a paddock basher/shed wall support/upside down in a muddy ditch.
Therefore, it follows that the newer bike will require less work (and therefore money) to get it to a race-ready standard.

It also stands to reason that the longer a bike has been out of production, the more the available parts pool has been drained.

Yeah, I'm sure that we can all think of exceptions, but to argue otherwise betrays that irrationality that I got in trouble for pointing out earlier.

And thanks for the offer of the forks, but I've got plenty of rusty 34mm forks already.

[holeshot buddy]

ok i better say something
fuggin hell this is going better than my overrated maico post
everything has been just about covered
all i will say is the tracks will not be altered to suit pre 90
they will remain the same
there is enough time in the day for extra classes without finishing late
it will not affect pre 75 because of this
and any bullshit about track damage then what about maico 490s and yz465s
and all the 500s in pre 85 so forget that one
i agree with brad riders would like to ride the bikes they raced back then
before they are too old and useless (hey magoo)
remember the main point we do not race for championships or trophys
just bullshitting rites in the pits
so it doesnt matter if guys with pre 90 bikes want to ride tracks
with jumps etc then they can ride there vet class or opens at club days
i used to race my 85 kx500 against the moderns in vets so they can do that
and if they want to ride at a vintage day they will ride grass track like the rest of us
no big deal about that
seriosly there is stuff all difference between a pre 90 and pre 85
on 500s watercooling that should work well for our 4 lap races
rear disc  big deal a drum set up properly is as good as a disc and lighter
upside down forks on 89 models standard they were worse than conventionals :'(
spend money they are good but remember grass track mainly stuff all jumps and braking bumps :'(
no one needs to panic this class is a fair way off the gcrs
its basically another class for guys to race in
bikes are more availiable as well as parts
i will race pre 90 but also pre85  78  75  evo
looking for a pre 60
just bought a yz360 i will park it next to my pre 90 500 kx
and i think everone should grow there hair long like me to suit the period
or your bike will be confiscated
did i mention the maico 490

[Maico31]

Hey halfshot what's the YZ360 you just aquired?

[holeshot buddy]

its a yz360a
frame no 432000255
cool eh only 530 made world wide mines number 154
its pretty rough and missing some parts
but cant complain will post photo in yamaha section tommorow

[TonyB]

overshot - there is not enough time for another 9 races in a day forget it, we sometimes struggle to fit our current program in. We have had meets where we cut down the number of laps to fit it in, so if it takes off into 3 cc sizes 9 races aint gonna fit no matter how much its talked up

[holeshot buddy]

tony there is heaps of time most of our meetings finish at 3.00
and thats with the new one bike rider extra 2 classes
which is 6 races
and if the guys with one bike buy a pre 90 they will have an extra ride
dont forget we are combining pre 90 to allpowers for the first year
and we might even combine after that depending on numbers
remember its not full blown racing and its another cheaper way to give guys another bike
to race
so it will only be 3 extra races
we are talking 8 minutes max per race
arrm  i think thats an extra 24 minutes   

[firko]

And thanks for the offer of the forks, but I've got plenty of rusty 34mm forks already

Nathan...How do you know they're rusty?    I don't even know myself as I haven't seen the bike yet. Like I said, if they're rust free, you can have 'em. The offer stands. If you're not interested I'll donate them to someone else as I don't want to clog the shed up with stuff I'm not using. 

[Nathan S]

Mr Webmaster, can we have a thread-split, please?

I have to also question Nathans retorts over the pre 75 parts side issue. From what I read in his posts, it seems to me that he sees vintage racing as some sort of budget bargain basement form of racing. With some wisdom and lateral thought, you can indeed build a cheap racer. However VMX is not a dirt bike equivalent to fender bender speedway, it's a serious hobby using serious race bikes.

If you search the forums, you'll find that I've said exactly the same thing myself, several times in the past.
The amount of money I've spent on my old bikes could easily have bought me a new MX bike, a new enduro bike and a new TTR230 for Anna, and kept them perfectly maintianed... across a lot more racing too...

I don't know whether you're missing my point, or are deliberately trying to misrepresent what I've said, so I'll try again:

The older the bike, the harder and more expensive the parts are to find, and therefore the more difficult/expensive it is to maintain one in race ready condition.
Therefore, many people choose to use their older bikes more sparingly, if at all.

My CT1 piston example is actually a better one than I thought. What if it was my only race bike? I holed the piston earlier in the year, and still haven't been able to find a replacement. If it was my only race bike, I wouldn't have made it to another race meet all year (broken legs notwithstanding), and who knows how long it will be until I do find one?

I never claimed that it was impossible to keep any bike running. But no matter how passionate we are about our old bikes, there comes a point where 'real life' steps in and says "Hang on a minute! The amount of money you're spending here could be spent on the mortgage/holiday/car/whatever". And yes, the point where that happens is different for everyone - but no matter who you are, the more money you're spending, the sooner it will happen.
Just look at how upset we all get when petrol goes up 10c/litre (obviously no an era-specific concern, but the principle is the same).

So... with everything else being equal: The more money it costs, the less participants there will be.
And dismissing the people who don't put a second mortgage on the house to restore an old bike as "not serious" or whatever, doesn't help the sport one iota.

If I hadn't been lucky and found a pair of forks my my DT175, then there'd be one less bike at the race track, and one more bike rotting in a paddock. Good outcome for the sport? I think not...


Firko, you can see they're rusty in the pic.

[Nathan S]

*click*
I'm sure we've all heard that saying: "All happy families are happy in the same way, but each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way".

Looking at this thread, the pro-pre-90 people are all saying the same basic things: The bikes are old enough; there are people keen to race them; they're still readily available and relatively cheap; they won't hurt the older categories.

On the other hand, the anti-pre-90 guys contradict each other just as often as not:
in a couple more years / never;
they'll kill pre-75 / no they won't;
they'll kill pre-85 / no they won't;
pre-75 is dying anyhow / no it isn't;
they'll want different tracks / no they won't....

[firko]

Firko, you can see they're rusty in the pic.

So they are..I didn't look hard enough at the photo. No problem.

My CT1 piston example is actually a better one than I thought. What if it was my only race bike? I holed the piston earlier in the year, and still haven't been able to find a replacement. If it was my only race bike, I wouldn't have made it to another race meet all year (broken legs notwithstanding), and who knows how long it will be until I do find one

Having never had the need to look for a CT1 piston I took your words as fact and accepted that they must be some sort of rarity. However since you still keep harping back to the same lack of CT1 pistons I figured I'd try and help you out and find one for you. Well, how lucky was I! On my first ever attempt I've found 8 CT1 pistons of various size and manufacture on US eBay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/New-075-Over-OEM-Piston-Rings-for-Yamaha-CT1-69_W0QQitemZ380073436185QQihZ025QQcategoryZ35581QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The current 60c Aussie dollar makes them 40% dearer of course but that's the same for all of us. Then I figured that there may have been none listed until the current crop so I looked back over the last few months and discovered 20 in recent times, when the exchange rate was a tad friendlier. (a small selection shown below)

I'm showing you this to back my point again. The parts are out there if you want them. Unavailability isn't a problem, especially for the bikes you are interested in. I'm at a loss to understand why you couldn't find pistons when I foundthese in 5 minutes! Of course some pre '75 stuff is hard to find but I maintain that overall, the parts for pre '75 are MORE plentiful that that for later models. I'll tell you why...Back then there wasn't a yearly model upgrade and with planned obsolesence thrown in to keep the punters buying new bikes. The National Parts manager for Yamaha Colin Iskov actually told me that the parts for later models from around 1980 were drastically reduced to ofset being stuck with shelf after shelf of parts. In the pre '75 era the bean counters hadn't thought of this so model runs went for six or seven years in some instance which was fine, all you had to do was to keep your bike freshened up with easily obtained parts and it'd last you four or five years. That wasn't selling bikes though. They then introduced planned obsolesence which bought us short engineering life for a model before it was totally changed, therefore makeing the previous model obsolete. The parts production was radically reduced because they knew they wouldn't be able to use them on the next model and didn't want to get stuck with shelves full of old parts. Let's not forget that they also wanted you to buy a new bike, not keep your old one running for too long. Don't believe me, check out the interchange parts for the early models and then for the post 1980 models..no comparison..

We could debate this and the other points until the cows come home and I'd still think I'm right and you'd think you're right. Nothing's going to change and our opinions aren't going to change the destiny of the sport. I'm going out to the shed now to work on my new  pre '70 class bike. It's been fun.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Yamaha-CT-1-CT1-CT-1-175-Piston-kit_W0QQitemZ310091682245QQihZ021QQcategoryZ35595QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Yamaha-AT1-125-CT1-175-Wiseco-Engine-Piston-69-71_W0QQitemZ400002413606QQihZ027QQcategoryZ35581QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/YAMAHA-AT1-CT1-Piston-Kit-25-mm-or-010-O-S_W0QQitemZ350110312982QQihZ022QQcategoryZ35595QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Maicojames]

Well, it appears the Pre-90 direction is going whether some like it or not
Today, there was a 20th anniv, race for our local VMX club.
Hmmm, let's see Four pre-75 bikes, One pre-78 bike, a dozen "Evo" bikes, a dozen
Pre-85 bikes ,and over 20 "decade" or pre-90 type bikes. I am glad my 2yr old son shit himself while I watched, or I would have fell asleep.

Nathan, the Yamaha forks are out there at least here in the US( shipping I know, but perhaps only sending the tubes would help a bit). I agree that rechroming is expensive-and have yet to do so myself, though I had a set of tubes diamind poilshed ( about $ 100 I think) which removed the very slight rust  they had.

 Last year, I poished off the minimal rust on a set of RM250a tubes-came out very nice-only on my buffing wheel with black compound.
  As far as passion for the bike...I say this. I could likely score a pre-90 bike now-even with my almost zero$.
To me, I would rather save, and yes, spend more on a pre-78 bike build-that is just my passion. BTW Nathan-the pre-90 era would be my generation of bikes since I am "a 1968 model" myself.  Personally, I recall way more fondly seeing the then new long travel bikes changing almost weekly, Fox Airshox, Simons forks, Sun Rims-air fork kits, snail pipes, and all kinds of LTR conversions. Each to their own, and maybe I 'll be the lone racer left on an "antique" 76 Maico when the Aluminum framed four strokes of today are the next "vintage" class.

[firko]

I thought I'd take a squiz on eBay looking for your hard to find parts Nathan. More for my own education than to take the piss. It took me about an hour, or less to find nearly all of the parts you listed. I didn't have any luck with YZA rings but give me a few days or a couple of weeks, I'll find 'em for you. Same score with the RM370 rod kit. None today but I reckon one'll pop up in a week or three. The Phantom transmission may take longer but, as I stated earlier, Phil uses SDR ot Stilleto parts and they pop up frequently. Is there anything else you're having a tough time finding?
Here's some 34mm forks Nathan, 10 bucks US, add 40% for the exchange rate=$14, add $50 shipping= around $65 bucks au. Too easy.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Y48-1975-1976-Yamaha-DT250-DT-250-FRONT-FORKS_W0QQitemZ370101668560QQihZ024QQcategoryZ34284QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Elsinore tank, one of five..10 bucks so far
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Vintage-Honda-Elsinore-CR125-Gas-Tank-CR-125-MX-AHRMA_W0QQitemZ120323973113QQihZ002QQcategoryZ35581QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Montesa piston, did I hear you ask what they're worth? Here's one for a 360 Cappra for 40 bucks + $16 shipping. There are about 15 on eBay right now for both 250 and 360. They average about 50 bucks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TARABUSI-PISTON-MONTESA-360-79-5mm_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q3a1Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a2Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem370101250857QQitemZ370101250857
Suzuki RM370 REAR HUB? Here's a complete wheel for 90 bucks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1976-Suzuki-RM370-RM-370-18-Rear-Wheel-Rim-Hub_W0QQitemZ310095411672QQihZ021QQcategoryZ35581QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247
I couldn't find a 370 Suzuki rod kit but found a crank with no rod play for $70. I'll find a rod kit given more time.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1977-Suzuki-RM370-RM-370-Engine-Motor-Crankshaft-Crank_W0QQitemZ310086129426QQihZ021QQcategoryZ35581QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247
PE Suzuki rear fender? No problema mi amigo! Here's one from DC Plastics, a brand new replica for 25 bucks!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1980-1981-Suzuki-PE-175-250-Rear-Fender-Yellow-2nd_W0QQitemZ150305454401QQihZ005QQcategoryZ35584QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[mx250]

Montesa piston, did I hear you ask what they're worth? Here's one for a 360 Cappra for 40 bucks + $16 shipping. There are about 15 on eBay right now for both 250 and 360. They average about 50 bucks.

All Cota's :'(.

And the 360 can't be adapted either :'( 360 Cappra = 83.4mm :'(

[Nathan S]

Oh so close Firko, oh so close.

AT1 pistons are not the problem, its CT1 pistons - and (despite the ebay ads) they're different to AT1 items (56mm vs 66mm bore). People get it wrong all the time because Zedder is wrong.
And a standard bore one is no use to me (at least not until I spend several hundred dollars on a custom sleeve...).