OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Graeme M on September 16, 2010, 07:50:41 pm
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I know that this topic of pre 90/pre 95 keeps on coming up and causing angst, but let's face it, there will come a time when guys want to race the bikes of their youth and they'll be Pre 2005 models.
So, I think we should move now and prepare the way for the future. I'd like to seriously propose the creation of a set of era-based classes within the framework of a sport called Classic Motocross.
These era based classes will be able to stand on their own. That is, a promoting club can run races based around any one or combination of these classes. But in doing so, the original grassroots sport, vintage motocross, will be a clearly identified class of the sport that remains true to its origin and spirit.
I propose the following era based breakup:
Pre 65
Pre 75
Pre 85
Pre 95
Pre 2005
I can see an argument for combining Pre 65 and Pre 70, or even making it Pre 70 and Pre 75.
These classes would be called as follows:
Dinosaur: Pre 1965
Vintage: 65 (or 70)-75 (ie Pre 75)
Evolution 1: 75-85 (ie Pre 85)
Evolution 2: 85-95 (ie Pre 95)
New Era: 95-05 (ie Pre 05)
These fit nicely. Vintage is all the old 7"/4" bikes. Evo 1 is the first round of major evolution. Evo 2 is the second round taking us through to what is today largely the modern era. And New Era encapsulates the emergence of the new 4 stroke technology.
I'm serious about this, and would even be willing to start trying to draft up a proposal. I've always wanted to nail Vintage as Pre 75, but not exclude later classes. With something like the above, we have a course into the future and no more endless arguing about whether to let in Pre 90 or whatever. You'd still have vintage and clubs that do it, but you'd also have an Evo 2 class that someone can get up and running if there's a call for it. Might only be a single race at a typical meeting, but what's wrong with that?
In terms of the Nats, there's a natural path to having Vintage and Evolution Nats separately, if that's what the members want.
As for club level racing, for those who are passionate about vintage being Pre75, well, they'd be right. But those wanting to see later model bikes could lobby their club to introduce an Evo 2 class, or even form their own Evolution club.
Clubs like HEAVEN could for example have a 4 event series respectively for Vintage and Evolution. Perhaps each alternate round, with tracks that suit, for example Bulahdelah for Vintage and Canberra for Evolution.
I don't know how we'd break up the classes within those Eras. Perhaps Vintage with its dropping numbers could have an up to 250 and and Open class in Dinosaur and Vintage. Evo 1 is a bit tricky, but could move to a year cutoff such as Pre 78, Pre 81 and Pre 85. Or something based around the drum/disk brake and air/water cooling distinction. This also lets us introduce a year cutoff on the current Evo class. I favour Pre 78, Pre 81 and Pre 85 cos it pretty much fits what happened. But plenty of room to nut that one out.
So, what's the thoughts? Worth pursuing? I'm keen.
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Graeme, this was debated awhile back, have a read, and a laugh ;)
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=1479.0
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All I am suggesting is that maybe that era of bike could be known as (for want of a better title) EMX. They (EMX Bikes) would still come under the great name of VMX but just as a sub-category. I am not trying to detract anything from them or glorify them in anyway but merely title their era.
The bikes before 1975 should be known as 'Vintage' as that is where it all started and the bikes from 1975 to 1985 could be known as the 'Evolution' era, hence EMX. I dont really percieve my own bikes (1975 through to 1985) as vintage, but I look at BSA's, Cheney's and bikes like those to be 'vintage'. The decade ('75 through '85) doesnt look vintage to me but that is just my personal thoughts.
I state decades in here because is seems a natural cut off point to distinquish the changes of the look of the bikes and what people perceive as vintage verses evolution.
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Dinosaur: Pre 1965
Vintage: 65 (or 70)-75 (ie Pre 75)
Evolution 1: 75-85 (ie Pre 85)
Evolution 2: 85-95 (ie Pre 95)
New Era: 95-05 (ie Pre 05)
This class is to wide, you cant have 1975 model bikes racing with 1984's
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Well, no you wouldn't have 75s against 85s. I am suggesting a broad category. Within Evo 1, you would have the existing classes - Pre 78, Pre 85, and something to cover the current Evo bikes, maybe Pre 81? The idea is to quarantine the actual eras, so that vintage is always vintage and it's Pre 75. But then you can have Evo 2 which brings in the Pre 90 and Pre 95 classes.
With that sort of categorisation, we can have clubs that are either dedicated to one or more of these.
You aren't diluting the sport, you are just making the landscape a bit clearer. It may be that in NSW no-one embraces Evo 2. But they might at some point have a race for an Evo 2 class. Or an Evo 2 club may come into being. It's unlikely though that an Evo 2 club would result in the death of Vintage and Evo 1 racing.
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Well I have to say that seems like a very good proposal and if the emotion is taken out of the debate and common sense is used I think something workable can happen to satisfy most people. ( some will never be happy )
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Ok good idea, but instead would like to see the cut off at 99 instead of going to 2005.
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You know its a good idea, Graeme.
So much of the reason we talk around in circles is because everyone gets too hung up on their own personal definition of particular words, and we end up having stupid arguments over trivial shit while ignoring the big picture issues. Your suggestion removes most of the avenues for that, while also giving every punter what he/she wants.
I'd be interested to see how pre-XX naysayers try to derail sensible discussion on this - but am sure it will happen.
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Of course Walter. But... time doesn't stand still. This sets the scene for the future. Of course no-one will actually race New Era now. And we'd probably have just the most basic rules - now. But one day, maybe, in 2020 there'll be 37 year old guys who find themselves wanting to get a 2003 YZ250F and go do some Classic Motocross racing. Closer to now, we might see some Evo 2 races on the grid. But they'll be the Pre 90 division of Evo 2. Works for me.
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I hear and read about dwindling numbers in vmx club race meets, whether it's a sign of current economic conditions or other factors I don't know. Whether it is an actual fact or not, I don't know.
I do think though that introducing pre-95 is like lobbing a grenade into the mix to try and sort things out. I can't for the life of me imagine too many guys being that enthused about going out and restoring/racing a 1994 model bike to try and recapture the glory days which were basically just last week.
I also can't imagine too many spectators being interested in turning up to watch the aforementioned bikes.
I'm happy to be convinced that numbers are consistently down in VMX race meets, and if so something needs to be done to try and improve things. I just don't think this is it. As much as I love the QVMX meets I attend and appreciate the huge amounts of effort that those more heavily involved in the club put in, from what I've seen, since pre90 was introduced, the pre70/65 class has basically died.
I can't imagine that introducing a "classic" 1994 Falcon/commodore class would increase race numbers at vintage car race meets, and I don't think we'd be seeing this sort of kneejerk reaction in any other form of vintage/classic motorsport.
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You're missing the point. This isn't about getting the numbers back or 'fixing' VMX.
It's about resolving the argument over the whole Pre 90 and Pre 95 thing, whilst preserving Vintage in perpetuity. It's also about setting a succession plan in place for the future so that the sport doesn't have to be constantly reinvented.
I'll say it again. If we have an Evo 2 class in the MoMS, then if anyone anywhere wants to start doing it, all power to them. But the traditional clubs probably aren;t about to introduce it as part of their usual offering. They MAY have a one-off race meet for that class, or have a couple of races on their program. But at least they'll ALL be doing it consistently.
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I do think though that introducing pre-95 is like lobbing a grenade into the mix to try and sort things out. I can't for the life of me imagine too many guys being that enthused about going out and restoring/racing a 1994 model bike to try and recapture the glory days which were basically just last week.
I also can't imagine too many spectators being interested in turning up to watch the aforementioned bikes.
VMX has never been about un-informed spectators - its too hard to explain to a non-bike person why a Metisse is cool, or the historical significance of a 125 Elsinore, or whatever. There are plenty of un-informed punters who will happily come and watch bikes (that happen to be old) being ridden hard, and they're not going to be upset by watching newer bikes.
I can't imagine that introducing a "classic" 1994 Falcon/commodore class would increase race numbers at vintage car race meets, and I don't think we'd be seeing this sort of kneejerk reaction in any other form of vintage/classic motorsport.
Actually... The post-classic road race guys already run a 1990~95 (ie: pre-96) class, and the car guys run Historic GpA for pre-93 cars (remembering that the SuperCar formula came in after 93, that's the logical cut-off for them).
http://www.postclassicracing.com.au/pages/raceclasses.aspx
http://www.cams.com.au/Sport/Historics/Historic%20Groups.aspx
Its only us 'historic' dirt bike types that keep burying our heads in the sand by trying to pretend that its still 1994...
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Guys, pre-90 and pre-95 or even double overhead cam, fuel injected 4 stroke classes (work out which year that is) are NOT what VMX is about.
The reality of the situation is that the era from around 1965 through to 1985 is derived from the great technological change that occured in the design of the motorcycles during that era and THAT is what makes it so easy to define that era as VMX.
Since 1985, despite what anyone may claim, bike design has NOT progressed in the same kinds of leaps an bounds that it did in 1965-1985. The fact that a bike like a KX500 remained competitive and virtually unchanged from 1988 through to 2003 is a blatent example of this fact. Indeed if open class 2 strokes were still the premier class in MX, it is unlikely that they would STILL have changed much today.
Another critical area of difference between the VMX era and post 1985 is that there was a huge change in the manufacturing supremacy during the 1965-1985 period. We went from British supremacy through European diversity (anyone who has witnessed Mark Holloway's 1974 125cc MX bike collecion can attest to the diversity of manufacturers in 1974) to Japanese dominance. After 1985, not a lot has changed... ::)
By all means, have your club incorporate whatever classes you want to suit your purpose. ;) BUT, the VMX era is defined not by popularity, but by the specific attributes of that ERA which made it special and unique. ;)
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You're missing the point. This isn't about getting the numbers back or 'fixing' VMX.
It's about resolving the argument over the whole Pre 90 and Pre 95 thing, whilst preserving Vintage in perpetuity. It's also about setting a succession plan in place for the future so that the sport doesn't have to be constantly reinvented.
I'll say it again. If we have an Evo 2 class in the MoMS, then if anyone anywhere wants to start doing it, all power to them. But the traditional clubs probably aren;t about to introduce it as part of their usual offering. They MAY have a one-off race meet for that class, or have a couple of races on their program. But at least they'll ALL be doing it consistently.
I understand that and it makes sense to me.
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But that is exactly my point Ajay. You can't bury your head in the sand and pretend that in time, old guys won't want to race the old MX bikes of their youth, and those old bikes will be Pre 95 bikes. To THOSE guys, the 94 CR250 WILL be an old bike compared to the 2010 or 2015 bikes everyone is riding around them.
BUT. VINTAGE motocross is the classic old bikes from yesteryear, from the murky depths of the past.
If we set in place a way for CLASSIC MOTOCROSS to chart a course into the future, allowing for new blood to relive their youth, but preserving the spirit of an earlier age, well, I think we'll have done something worthwhile.
There is no way that us over 50s have a monopoly on reliving a time from our past. It's OUR past, not that of the kids of 1994 or 1998 or 2003.
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I'm not saying that any club has to 'implement' an Evo 2 class Alison. I am saying that by creating such a thing, we can right now model the course of the sport's evolution. And when it's time comes, Evo 2 will already be a class that can be brought into the light of day.
The WA VMX club couldn't care less that there's an Evo 2 or New Era class in the MoMS, they'll continue to race Vintage.
But VIPER may like to have a couple of Evo 2 classes, eh?
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Regardless of whatever has happened in the past ::) or may happen in the future.... the actual definition of something that is a "classic" is something that is at least 20 years old.
That may open the door to pre-90, but pre-95 is just plain fantasy. ;D
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I'd be interested to see how pre-XX naysayers try to derail sensible discussion on this - but am sure it will happen.
So, does this mean that because the "pre.xx naysayers" have an opinion that differs to yours Nathan, it's therefore not sensible or well thought out?
Having said that I think that Graeme's raised some interesting ideas. I think one thing that most of us would agree on is that the system does need a bit of a tweak. One of my main concerns besides my belief that the introduction of new classes is coming on too quickly is that the introduction of pre 90 adds to an already overloaded number of era divisions.
Here's my contribution.
* Pre 70.....absorbing pre 65 but allowing for a 4t/2t split in both 250 and 500 classes. That would put bikes such as the BSA B44, Mk4 Metisse, Hindall Triumph and BSA, 450 Ducati and other circa '68-70 era bikes of similar concept to compete with the regular pre 65 tackle.
*Pre '75. Remains the same but is opened up to accept some previously disallowed post '74 bikes with traditional 7" and 4" suspension travel in a bid to make the class more accessible.
*Pre '78. I'm not 100% sure this division is warranted in its current form if it continues to flounder. I understand the valid reasons for its existence but it hasn't been a big hit with punters. Perhaps it needs some more surgery, perhaps bringing the suspension limits up to 10" and 10".
*No more Evo. Absorb the bikes into either pre '78 or pre '85.
* Pre '85 As it stands.
*Pre '95. To be introduced in 2012. Perhaps run as a support class at modern meetings which has the double whammy benefit of keeping the vintage program less cluttered and 2: Presenting the "vintage" option to a new audience.
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Guys, pre-90 and pre-95 or even double overhead cam, fuel injected 4 stroke classes (work out which year that is) are NOT what VMX is about.
Says who? Everyone has their own opinion on this, and "because I say so" doesn't suddenly change my mind. There's dozens of people who will argue even less liberal definitions than your's...
If nothing else, you're completely ignoring the indisputable fact that people will always want to race old bikes that they identify with/find interesting, and do so amongst their peers. As Graeme is trying to point out, this suggestion allows for that, without worrying about the definition of VMX or similar.
The reality of the situation is that the era from around 1965 through to 1985 is derived from the great technological change that occured in the design of the motorcycles during that era and THAT is what makes it so easy to define that era as VMX.
If that's what it was about, then the cut-off should be the 1983 (when the KXes first got front discs & some KTMs got USD forks) or 1986 (when the KXes got a rear disc). There's no justification for 1984 being The End of significant bike development. Therefore your assertion that VMX (or old dirt bikes or whatever) is specifically defined by those years is clearly incorrect.
Since 1985, despite what anyone may claim, bike design has NOT progressed in the same kinds of leaps an bounds that it did in 1965-1985.
The only aspect of bike design that quickly rendered previous designs obsolete was LTR - and even then, it took five years to go from 4" of rear travel to 12" - each one of those years saw bikes with more travel, but it was still a incremental process, just like everything else before and since.
The fact that a bike like a KX500 remained competitive and virtually unchanged from 1988 through to 2003 is a blatent example of this fact. Indeed if open class 2 strokes were still the premier class in MX, it is unlikely that they would STILL have changed much today.
You've been drinking, right? Even by the early 1990s, the under-developed 500s were way behind their 250 siblings despite the extra grunt. Why do people pay so much money for Service Hondas, if the newer bits make no difference?
Another critical area of difference between the VMX era and post 1985 is that there was a huge change in the manufacturing supremacy during the 1965-1985 period. We went from British supremacy through European diversity (anyone who has witnessed Mark Holloway's 1974 125cc MX bike collecion can attest to the diversity of manufacturers in 1974) to Japanese dominance. After 1985, not a lot has changed... ::)
The death of Maico, the arrival of Aprillia, TM, Sherco & GasGas, KTM as a big player, Husqvarna moving to Italy, Husqvarna becoming a mainstream player, BMW's serious dirt bikes, the short-lived Suzuki-Kawasaki alliance, Cannondale, ATK, Husaberg, the rise and fall of VOR/Vertamati, the influx of Chinese bikes, the arrival on non-rubbish Chinese bikes... Yeah, nothing happening at all.
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So, does this mean that because the "pre.xx naysayers" have an opinion that differs to yours Nathan, it's therefore not sensible or well thought out?
I didn't say that.
When they're red herrings thrown in, then I have to consider them to be shenanigans.
Graeme's suggestion here is about how we can appease all interested parties - seperate the beloved VMX name from the new-fangled stuff, without dismissing the ideas and enthusiasm of the newer-but-still-old-bike lovers.
The irrelevant stuff about what exactly defines "vintage" betrays a lack of imagination and a lack of ability to understand the other side of the argument.
Looked at with a tiny bit of understanding, Graeme's suggestions provide the pre-XX* naysayers with the perfect opportunity to preserve their favourite era without the supposed dramas that newer era bikes do/would bring. But instead we get the blinkered, selfish "Its like this because I say so and everything else can go and get f$%ked".
I mean, Alistair doesn't even appear to know what year it is... Twice he's brought up "Classic" as being 20 years or older, and then tried to use it to dismiss the possibility of racing bikes that are/are about to be twenty years old. :o That's what I was talking about "Derailing sensible discussion".
Ditto the shit in the pre-95 thread. If its really such a dumb idea, then its easy to shoot down with coherent, rational arguments. Instead we get the internet equivilant of yelling "nah nah nah nah" with our eyes screwed up and our fingers in our ears.
I do agree with the way you're thinking in the rest of your post - I don't particularly agree with most of your suggestions, but the willingness to look at options without being locked into the same old way of thinking.
*NB: XX could be any number - even 70... ;)
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No more EVO Firko......lets just piss off the most supported race and let 3 pre 75 bikes have a go.
That`ll get them thru the gates
Take Shaun`s tip and get out to a meet soon
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Nathan - whilst I am aware you will not agree and I know you will find some way of picking holes in this point - the "head in the sand" VMX fraternity in WA seem to get it right as far as bikes and rider numbers go - the formula can be made to work.
The WA model is really interesting (and good!), but the big thing is that your lot never let the genie out of the bottle.
Over here, we didn't dogmatically build pre-75 only. We had a strong pre-75 mainstay club (Penrith), and then HEAVEN was formed to pick up the newer eras. When Penrith withered on the vine, iIt somehow became HEAVEN's job to nurture pre-75 despite the club's fundamental focus on newer eras. Nobody has been willing to step up and be a strong advocate/organiser for pre-75 - instead, there's been a lot of stones chucked at HEAVEN for not selling their soul to support the pre-75 cause.
(FWIW: HEAVEN actually does a very good job of being all things to all people, but the reality is that no club can possibly do everything perfectly, particularly with so many stones raining down... If the committee focusses its efforts on one particular era, then they get bitched at for neglecting the others. Therefore the club is forever doomed to continued criticism of not putting enough effort into the sport as a whole, which is completely unfair to the people who put in the time and effort to making the club run... It's a viscious cycle that takes its toll on the people who least deserve to pay it.)
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You know what? At 11.40 pm tonight it finally dawned on me that I'm arguing merely for the sake of arguing. The sad reality of all of this pre 95 nonsense is that the sport I've put the last 25 years into is changing into something that I have no passion for. I've been trying to convince myself that I really cared by involving myself into the pre 90/95 discussion with what I still firmly believe are valid concerns but to be really truthful....I don't particularly care any more.
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assumptions! it might reflect a state but not the whole country!
, pre75, pre 78 , evo, pre85 were full grid class's at Conondale 2008, so yeah let's combine them and give more time back to pre 65 and watch 6 bikes race.
everybody should learn to live within the GCR's as set out and not these pointless debates on a forum, if you have an idea, take to your club and stop your bitching about why everybody has to agree with your ideas.
Nathan, your not an authority on VMX, how long have you been envolved in the sport and why do you think your voice carries more wieght than others,
A- your on a committee for VMX, and run many race meetings.
B- youve held the role of President for several years and have grass roots feel for the sport.
C- your a steward or clerk or scrutineer for VMX and converse with fellow riders and not just your circle of mates, to determine your position.
D- youve been a part of the sport for years and just like having a whinge.
E- it's a generation thing, why cant "I" have this.
really, i think its a generation thing and you lack respect for the sport, otherwise you would be glad, just to be a part of it.
come back in about 2020 for pre 95, we will all be dead and youve might of turned 40, then bring in your pre 95.
over and out.
the dumb old bastard Worms, yes i was behind the introduction of PRE85 and submitted the proposal to MA to be included to the GCR's.
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Quote from nathan S
Instead we get the internet equivilant of yelling "nah nah nah nah" with our eyes screwed up and our fingers in our ears.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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I reckon clubs should think ahead and look at introducing a pre 2010 class.
The main arguments I've seen for pre95 are that
1 - someone rode one in their youth and has fond memories of them
2 - they're technologically outdated
Pre 2010 fits both these parameters.
Firstly, no top class rider worth his/her salt would be seen dead on a 2009 model bike, and the factories have certainly made major improvements in the last year (just ask them)
Secondly, it's getting to the end of the racing season, time to reflect. There'll certainly be riders out there looking at the tired 2009 practice bike at the back of the garage and wistfully thinking about the 'good old days'
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I don't follow how everyone assumes that having a plan for the future somehow means the end of today. If the argument is that vintage motocross ends in 1985, well... I think you've just ensured the sport will one day wither and die.
Maybe a few tattoo wearing kids will want to keep racing old Brit iron, but they aren't doing it for the reason VMX came about.
And I'll bet you that VMX came about partly for these reasons:
1 - someone rode one in their youth and has fond memories of them
2 - they're technologically outdated
Look, what I am saying is that you define your classes NOW, for those in the FUTURE. No-one HAS to suddenly include New Era or Evo 2 in their program. Why on earth would they?
Perhaps we add a 'sunrise' clause as to when the new classes become valid, like Firko suggests. Overall, his suggestions seem to fit with what I am proposing, so I can see the opportunity for further discussion to really flesh this out.
No-one need fear the introduction of Pre 95 at the Nats anytime soon from such a proposal. Don't you see that?
Or do you really believe it's your job to prevent the guys of 2015 hving any choice about vintage MX because it's only Pre 85 bikes?
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My vision here is to protect the spirit and meaning as well as the actual parameters of VINTAGE MOTOCROSS, laregly as the founders designed it.
Within the framework of a sport called Classic Motocross so that future riders can take advantage of it and race their old bikes, when that time comes.
And, once we have this framework, there is no more wailing and gnashing of teeth over what constitutes a classix mx bike. No-one can argue that Vintage MX is this or that - it's what it is and always has been.
And clubs can choose to introduce a newer class, within an existing set of rules, if they wish. Or not.
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you know, it's friday and my head hurts, why cant we just go with the flow, the GCR's are there, the class's are there, the rules are set.
WHY do we need change, its like calling a dog a sheep, it's still a dog!
Cheers Worms
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You've been drinking, right? Even by the early 1990s, the under-developed 500s were way behind their 250 siblings despite the extra grunt. Why do people pay so much money for Service Hondas, if the newer bits make no difference?
Nice. ::)
And wrong. There were many many reasons why the 500cc class became lost in the wilderness, being outdated was not one of them. Go ride a 2000 KX500 and see if it's an effective MX bike or not.
The death of Maico, the arrival of Aprillia, TM, Sherco & GasGas, KTM as a big player, Husqvarna moving to Italy, Husqvarna becoming a mainstream player, BMW's serious dirt bikes, the short-lived Suzuki-Kawasaki alliance, Cannondale, ATK, Husaberg, the rise and fall of VOR/Vertamati, the influx of Chinese bikes, the arrival on non-rubbish Chinese bikes... Yeah, nothing happening at all.
Certainly there has been a recent resurgence in non-Japanese manufacturers and that's great. But they are still only nibbling at the edges really. How many do you see at a national MX meeting however? Probably more KTMs now than before, but fundamentally the Japanese makes are still dominant aren't they? :P
As Firko says, this whole subject is nonsense on a forum such as this. Just because Nathan thinks it's a great idea does not make it so. ::)
What the VMX scene really needs to do is focus back on the Vintage bikes and try to get more younger people to have a go at riding them, rather than just allow the modern bikes (pre-90 and later) to take over. In this respect, our Western Australian friends have done a great job and from all accounts, their pre-78 racing scene hasn't died off nearly as much as it has in the Eastern states.
Taking the pre-90 and pre-95 road is just the lazy way. :o
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Ok good idea, but instead would like to see the cut off at 99 instead of going to 2005.
Hey! >:( I've got a 2000 model and it's not really different from the '99 model. Will the carry-over rule apply to this?
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee74/All_things_414/DSCN0798.jpg)
There'll certainly be riders out there looking at the tired 2009 practice bike at the back of the garage and wistfully thinking about the 'good old days'
:D :D :D :D
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Actually......when I think about it......my 2000 model isn't a lot different to my '97 model which was very similar to my '94 YZ. So by that rationale my 2000 should really be a carry-over model from my '94 model and I should be able to compete in Pre 95.
So I can use it in Pre 95 and moderns! Yay! I'm off to put some good tyres on it...... :)
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Actually......when I think about it......my 2000 model isn't a lot different to my '97 model which was very similar to my '94 YZ. So by that rationale my 2000 should really be a carry-over model from my '94 model and I should be able to compete in Pre 95.
So I can use it in Pre 95 and moderns! Yay! I'm off to put some good tyres on it...... :)
Exactly. ;)
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Hey I'm serious. I'm sick of trying to keep three bikes on the go....... ::)
Now I'll be able to reflect on "the good ol' days" with a tear in my eye and still show up some of the 4t 'supercrossers' of today on a 500 buck, eBay throw-away. A win-win situation. :)
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I'm sick of trying to keep three bikes on the go....... mmmmmmm then have a rest ,
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I'll bring the Scotch Fingers, you bring the pop..... :D
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One thing that struck me about the other Pre 95 thread was that I didn’t realize so many were so paranoid about the future.
No topic has ever been taboo on here but it seems the “Era that can not be mentioned” should not be talked about at all with more calls to delete this thread and pretend it never happened.
I think Graeme is mostly on the money although I don’t agree with his class structure.
And while post 90 doesn’t mean anything to me (never owned a 90’s model bike) I can see that younger people will see differently.
Yes, one day the younguns will worship a different God.
But I think that it may be close to a decade away, depending on when a “doer” decides to make it happen.
I also think it would, and should be outside the current VMX movement.
As I tried to point out in the other thread and as 414 has noted here, a Pre 95 class will be plagued by flow on arguments. Any class that is to be defined by engine and frame No’s is doomed so the younguns will have some serious thinking to do.
I think the only reason that WA has kept to Pre 75 is because no one could be bothered starting another movement, until recently anyway.
From what I know, in Vic the Pre 75’s started off strong, but then guys started remembering the late seventies models and pre 80 was born. This caused a split and the pre 75 and post 75 guys went their separate ways and Viper was born.
Years later much the same happened again when Pre 75 faction tried to introduce I think pre 78.
Another split came that now sees us with 2 Pre 75 movements, and quite stupidly we have this weekend a choice of 2 different Pre 75 races
VCM at Mirboo Nth
&
Classic Scramble Club at Gellibrand.
While pre 75 riders are plentiful in Vic they are torn between which faction to support. Most guys I meet couldn’t give a shit about the politics of it all and just want to ride.
It seems that Heaven may be facing a similar dilemma with some calling for Pre 90 and some against it.
Interestingly I note that the most outspoken against Pre 90 for Heaven on here have no intention of riding a heaven event.
It may cause another faction to start up or it may keep going the same for many more years.
But one thing I picked up on is that they have open practice days on the Sat.
This seems like a great move by the club but I can see that with moderns riding the track it would probably alienate the pre 75 guys which is maybe why numbers are down.
Pre 90 itself won’t change much but it does form the platform to split the class’s at Pre 75 / 78
It wasn’t that long ago many thought this was a good idea for the Nats.
If Heaven can manage the split within the club it could go on to be the strongest club in Aust. As once different factions start then they seem to work against each other.
Viper do well with the Evo, 85, 90 classes with a modern support class thrown in. From what I hear the format works well. Although I think the modern class could do well to be an over 40 modern class. This would have the effect of attracting older people to the event that then may be attracted to the older bikes for an extra ride. Although I know it’s the hosting club that relies on the moderns.
If Heaven tried this and kept the pre 75’s to there own days then it may grow again.
One thing to be sure is that any promoting club needs bums on seats to survive, and the one killer is the “us & them” syndrome.
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I think the only reason that WA has kept to Pre 75 is because no one could be bothered starting another movement, until recently anyway.
Not quite true as the pre85 was tried a few yrs back, but they didn't form their own club, they became part of the BSA club. The only problem was that they remained as a class of the club you could only run in club runs.
Now the push is much bigger, as a seperate club (pre85MXWA), they have been able to run at modern events as a support class ie manjimup 15000, King of the Cross and recently a flat track event with the Northam MC, some of these events are now attracting prize money. The club is just under a yr old and growing rapidly with it's first event to be held with the VMXWA club a grass track event at bridgetown in November, slowly but surely growing stronger. but not taking anything away from the VMXWA club, but enhancing it.
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but not taking anything away from the VMXWA club, but enhancing it.
Yes, I see this sort of split as a good thing, allthough I think you would do well to be on non supercross type tracks.
The only thing to debate is should the split be at 75 or 78 (another can of worms)
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the established tracks in WA are not of the supercross nature and such as the manjimup track, which the VMXWA club up until this yr have held events on, very rideable for pre75 bikes, not easy but rideable. As to pre78 will always be a can of worms!!lol
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Here is what I posted on livewire in NZ under HAS VMX Peaked? got only 1 response, so here is probably a better place to air it: ;)
just thought I would start a discussion on the future of VMX . Berring in mind that the popularity of dirt bikes peaked approx 35 years ago and those that were involved then now are older than 46 years , how many more years of VMX racing have we got? As most of us know after about 1989 the bikes wer practially "modern" bikes ther would be little interest in having them to race (nostalgia is not going to be a trait of the generation who raced these bikes in there teens) There fore in doing the maths has VMX racing also peaked and will we see a slow decline into the mists of time.Also as in the past the financial restraints that saw austerity in the 80's have again raised their head causing declineing numbers , History seems to be repeating itself.
One response effectivly saying I was being defeatist
My Reply
The problem I see is that those 30 year olds were not even born or were at preschool when the true evolution of motocross bikes took place. the bikes they will want to ride will look like the modern bikes to a casual observer . ie all water colled upside down forks single shock and twin disc brakes..As far as tracks are concerned the spectro and a few other series already cater for those who just want natural terrain type tracks and those events even I would rather ride on my modern bike than my vmxer. Pre 90 is about where it will stop.
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Why do we have this discussion ? If those pre 2000 people feel so strong about their cause , why dont they run their own thing ? Why always chipp away on the pillars of VMX ? If you must , then build your own thing .
Agree 100% :)
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Sorry, I don't follow. How can developing the rules for classic MX to continue into the future, while preserving what we see today as 'vintage motocross', be chipping away at the pillars?
If you adopt something like what I am describing, then a club can continue to run Vintage and Evo 1 classes till the cows come home. If in 2015 you can find enough people to front the gate on a 1973 Bultaco or whatever, then great. But, if in 2012 someone wants to start racing a Pre 90 bike in SA and he or she can get enough like minded people together, they can form a club for Evo 2 and get some races up and going. And they'll be able to do it entirely 'legally'. And without the endless debate and whinging.
Now, how could having a lively and vibrant scene containing clubs running successul vintage and Evo 1 meetings AS WELL AS clubs actively running Evo 2 meetings, or some clubs doing a mix thereof, possibly be interpreted as a bad thing?
Or do all you naysayers simply believe that vintage MX is Pre 85 and that's the end of it? Anyone in the future who wants to race anything later can bugger off. Have an old dungers class somewhere else, as long as it isn't smelling up MY pits?
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As I tried to point out in the other thread and as 414 has noted here, a Pre 95 class will be plagued by flow on arguments. Any class that is to be defined by engine and frame No’s is doomed so the younguns will have some serious thinking to do.
Simple way to fix that is have a 'no follow on rule', set it in stone and then thats it. Solves arguments for good.
Anyone in the future who wants to race anything later can bugger off. Have an old dungers class somewhere else, as long as it isn't smelling up MY pits?
That is the attitude i dont like. With pre 90, 95 etc, no one is saying you have to race or watch it, its there for the people who like those bikes.
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Ok good idea, but instead would like to see the cut off at 99 instead of going to 2005.
Hey! >:( I've got a 2000 model and it's not really different from the '99 model. Will the carry-over rule apply to this?
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee74/All_things_414/DSCN0798.jpg)
There'll certainly be riders out there looking at the tired 2009 practice bike at the back of the garage and wistfully thinking about the 'good old days'
Looks like A '99 to me...or did you paint the airbox?
:D :D :D :D
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People are complaining that it gets too hard with carry on rules and complicates things and opens a can of worms. No carry on rule makes it just plain simple. if your bike is outside the class you want to ride it then then get a bike that fits the class, its as easy as that. It stops people pushing the boundries. In reality very few if any bikes are 100% identical to the preivious year, there will always be a change somewhere.
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.... a Pre 95 class will be plagued by flow on arguments. Any class that is to be defined by engine and frame No’s is doomed so the younguns will have some serious thinking to do.
It is no different to any other era cut-off. The VMX brains trust has developed a good knowledge of bikes from the currently acceptable eras, and will develop a good knowledge of any new era(s).
We might not all know the differences between a 1999 and 2000 RM125, but this is stuff that we will learn - and we'll learn if the same way, and for the same reasons as we learned the differences between a 1977 and a 1978 RM125...
Otherwise, thanks for the sensible reply Geoff. :)
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For me Vintage MX ends at approx 1980 end of twin shock air cooled drum brake era.
The period 1981 to 1990 for mx was a fantastic era with probably some of the most inovative designs and most beautifull (as a mechanical thing can be) MX bikes ever.
From 1990 to 2000 it was mainly refienment of what went before.
2000 on alloy frames , performance 4 strokes fuel injection etc.
Obviously as time goes on people will probably want to ride the bikes of these eras (im not sure about the imploding 4 bangers as i dont think they will last )
By all means run events for these bikes but why piggy back on the VMX scene ??? Pre 85 is in already and pre 90 in some places .
This naysayer is not anti any motorcycle (not even Harleys) but as with Harleys i feel that with later eras comes a different breed of individual , and i dont want to share the sandpit with those people.
Why cant those classes tack onto modern events , the bikes and riders are more suited to modern style tracks and modern riding styles than they are at Vintage events.
Happy to support any era of racing but VMX must cut off at 1985.
I own bikes from the 60s, 70s, 80s 90s and the present.
Here in NZ we are often told pre 90 is coming ::) but fortunatly the generation that wants them are to idle to do anything to get it up and running and are all wind and piss. They wait for somone else to put on the events and then will critisize and demand pre 2000 racing ::)
I just looked in the official VMX crystal ball , and 20 years down the track i can see the pre 1990 mob trying to discourage the pre 2010 from riding at their events ;)
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.... i feel that with later eras comes a different breed of individual , and i dont want to share the sandpit with those people.
Who are these people, and what makes them so scary? Sure, blokes like Hoony terrify me, but he's the only one I know who is into biting the heads off bats and ritual sacrifice.
The people who are keen on pre-90 are all in their mid-30s or older, and have all of the work/family/mortgage commitments that goes with being that age...
If you're picturing the typical 18 year old MX grommit with silly jeans and sillier haircuts, then you're miles from the mark.
Who are you picturing?
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Ross, tell me those AREN'T your choice of graphics on that YZ. You could get excommunicated for that you know.
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Nathan i generalized a bit much with that statement, its not really about age more about attitude . Its not whos currently involved but who it will attract. They dont let able bodied people in the special olympics just because thier having a bad day or suffering a broken heart.
You will get those who see it as budget boy racing , and those who cant cut it at modern meetings pot hunters ::)
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Who are these people, and what makes them so scary? Sure, blokes like Hoony terrify me, but he's the only one I know who is into biting the heads off bats and ritual sacrifice.
The people who are keen on pre-90 are all in their mid-30s or older, and have all of the work/family/mortgage commitments that goes with being that age...
Now that's funny Nathan, me scare anyone ! and bugger me it was only one bat and a suzuki footpeg sacrifice to beelzebub ;)
yes i'm a Pre 90 fan, by the way i'm 47 have a mortgage, Married, 2 kids no tattoos or piercing's. for me i reckon the cutoff is 1989 but that's just me.
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Graeme - I initially took the attitude of why are we going there again as I also don't see these later classes as VMX - and why should we bother - those that want to ride them can ride with moderns any day they like as it is - and I also agree with Firko - if we put as much effort into fixing what is currently wrong as we do into this later movement maybe all would be well. However at the end of the day if somebody could work out the debacle of where the split(s) would need to be then I can ride my pre75, have a dabble in pre 85 and not give a toss about pre later whatever.
So - I believe there is a classic car formula that goes - 25 years or older is classic, 35 years or older is vintage,45 years or older is....... etc. And then once those are split (except for the never ending bloody difficult pre 78) we could just run the old A,B,C grade or 125s, 250s and opens/500s just like the good old vintage days.
Simple enough?
cheers
Rossco
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Ross, tell me those AREN'T your choice of graphics on that YZ. You could get excommunicated for that you know.
Yes I did pick 'em and I luv 'em! Unfortounitly this set's nearly knackered and I wish I'd bought two (they were about 40 bucks each at the time).
Whitey 43 certainly knows his YZ's. That air-box is a '99 model as are a lot of the bits off this bike. The bike was a 'rolling write-off' that I picked up cheap and that was the plan for the rest of the bike after that. Build it cheap! Because it was several years old and not popular any more there was tons of trick stuff for it (shock valving etc) as well as all the engine parts sourced cheap from The US. They nearly give the stuff away! Even the Talon hubs, rims and spoke set were a bargain!
If you want to do some modern racing on something pretty unique, this is the way to go. All up it cost under 4G and it's very quick.... :)
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Can't you all just be friends and respect each others preferred era's they all have there place and progression will be up to the individuals it should not be up to any one individual or group to "rain on another's parade" if the numbers are there and the enthusiasm then let it happen I personally love the old bikes and everything from 65 and before to 2010 and what ever comes along beyond,there Mx'ers/scrambler's there all good and so are the characters that own and compete with them,if you have a fair dinkum love for bikes you shouldn't be trying to prevent any one from having a "go" there's a lot of opinions but there's no proof that additional later year classes will or wont work "suck it and see" so to speak
#8 :D
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Totally agree #8 well said.
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ah the cruzx of the matter is really, why does everyone think the current class,s need to be added to, do we really need to expand the class's anymore because someone has a pre 90 or pre95 bike,
simple, go and start a club specific to era's you want, that would be cool, but lets let VMX settle a bit instead of this attitude if we dont do something, we've all got our heads in the sand.
NO-ONE IS STOPPING ANYONE FORMING A CLUB SPECIFIC TO ANY CLASS, JUST GO AND DO IT!
if all the era's die because us old farts dont believe in anything after pre85 so be it, you young guys will laughing at us for not wanting to expand.
just accept the playing field as it is or go and build a new field.
cheers Worms
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just accept the playing field as it is or go and build a new field.
Like you did when you lobbied for pre-85 to be included?
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(http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu317/suzuki43/unclesam1.jpg?t=1284705981)
(http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu317/suzuki43/gasstation.jpg?t=1284706012)
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(http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu317/suzuki43/unclesam1.jpg?t=1284705981)
(http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu317/suzuki43/gasstation.jpg?t=1284706012)
:D :D :D :D
At least i can sleep easy this side of the ditch Liz ;) its all wind and piss :D
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(http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu317/suzuki43/cassette.jpg?t=1284706981)
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sorry Nathan, I just happened to be at the helm and the memmbers voted to move forward with Pre 85, I didnt lobby anybody except support the clubs wishes! Perception is a funny thing, so why push your bandwagon here, submit it to your club for disscussion at your AGM, why not start there?
you would gain far greater respect by doing something instead of forum hot-air
see, if your memmbers want it, they will vote it in, simple really.
I choose not too, as I am happy with where we are at, as a sport, with the GCR's and classes.
Cheers Trev
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As much as your idea is a good one Graeme, I cant see a problem with Classic Motocross as an era (which, whether is good or bad, is now up to 1985). I do understand what you are trying to say and believe that it is probably needed, after all classic motocross started out with a cut off date of pre75, then it moved to pre80 and now sits at pre85. I struggle to see how a watercooled, linkaged bike with disc brakes, powervalves and safety seats are called vintage but that is now what has happened.
What I do think needs to happen is that the most progressive/innovative time of motocross needs to be preserved and if we keep moving the goal posts to accomadate the whims of, "the bike is 20/25yrs old now" so therefore its a vintage and should have a class for it to race in, will only lose the magic that Classic Motocross is all about, preserving an era in time. Just because time marchs on doesnt mean that the eras of Vintage Motocross have to march with it. Thats the whole point of Vintage Motocross.
If the bikes of 1985 and onwards are so prevalent to the modern motocrosser of today/yesterday wouldnt they themselves be fighting to have a 'retro class' at their modern meetings? After all, bikes of post '85 would fit in better with their modern counterparts, at least they would look 'old' at those meetings.
Why should it be up to the Classic Motocross guys to contemplate adding these bikes to an already time constrainted race day.
Why cant time stand still? - We are the ones who need to make that happen so that the bikes that started this "Era of time sport" is preserved.
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well said DJ
Cheers trev
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(http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu317/suzuki43/fcos.jpg?t=1284716262)
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Hmmm... maybe it's my language skills. I *used* to think I did English OK. :o
Let me try once more. Yes 'Vintage' motocross reflects a particular era, and it was a great era. It should be preserved, enshrined even. So, no argument, vintage motocross is Pre 75.
That said, I don't think Pre 85 is vintage in that respect. It's an 'evolution' of the bikes of Pre 75, part of the change into modern bikes.
But Pre 85, Pre 90 or Pre 95 are part of a continuum. And the people who were 18 or so that rode those bikes will one day want to recreate their youth. I don't race VMX just because it's a magical era. Hell, I had no interest in MX back then. rather, I do so because it is reliving the sights, sounds and spirit of my youth.
Pre 85 didn't happen because of some magical technical aspect of those bikes. It happened because younger guys got to the point they wanted to relive THEIR youth, and they wanted to ride those bikes, not the Pre 75 things that they laughed at when they were 18.
The happy outcome of course is that many of those guys were introduced to a time they'd missed and they embraced the older classes. I don't think this will happen forever, but it will for a little while yet. But time marches on.
Even though WE might see Pre 95 bikes or Pre 2005 bikes as just more of the same soulless plastic hordes, people in the future won't. I really doubt that in 2020, blokes will think to themselves as they turn 40, "Hey, I wanna go relive my youth. I know, I'll get me a 1972 Husky. Yessir, that'll be FUN. Whooee".
So, here it is again.
* Classic Motocross can be the umbrella term for racing old dirtbikes.
* Within that we can have divisions that reflect the various eras. No matter what we may think, someday there will be people who are 20 now who will be 40.
* Those divisions can be described now. Not so that we can have more classes at existing meetings. No. So that we can have a defined, considered framework to enable those divisions to become an active, vibrant part of the broader spectrum.
* Today's clubs, your HEAVENS and WAVMXs and BMCCs and so on, do NOT have to run a Pre 95 class just because it's defined in the MoMS. But, if we have these divisions defined, AND someone wants to start up a Pre 95 club, they CAN. In a way that complements the sport.
To summarise, this is our chance to define how the sport evolves, whilst preserving all that's good about what we have now.
DJ says:
Just because time marchs on doesnt mean that the eras of Vintage Motocross have to march with it. Thats the whole point of Vintage Motocross.
If the bikes of 1985 and onwards are so prevalent to the modern motocrosser of today/yesterday wouldnt they themselves be fighting to have a 'retro class' at their modern meetings? After all, bikes of post '85 would fit in better with their modern counterparts, at least they would look 'old' at those meetings.
Why should it be up to the Classic Motocross guys to contemplate adding these bikes to an already time constrainted race day.
Why cant time stand still? - We are the ones who need to make that happen so that the bikes that started this "Era of time sport" is preserved.
But... time DOES march on. And by moving on defining and preserving the various eras and what they represent, we prevent the loss of those eras to the sport.
I repeat, this does not mean that clubs need to add the new classes to their race day. Why on earth is that the conclusion? The new classes exist to offer direction. Clubs can adopt new classes if their members wish, just as happened with Pre 85. Or they can say NO to modern bikes, as HEAVEN has. Or the fans of Pre 95 can start their own club.
Why can't time stand still? It doesn't. Period. BUT we can preserve the eras of Classic MX such that to all intents and purposes, we can make time stand still, for all of us.
We are the ones who need to make that happen. We are the ones who need to ensure the future still has a place for our vintage motocross, as well as that of the CMX fan of tomorrow. And those in between.
The sport evolved because time moves. So do we have to evolve.
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.... I struggle to see how a watercooled, linkaged bike with disc brakes, powervalves and safety seats are called vintage but that is now what has happened.
What I do think needs to happen is that the most progressive/innovative time of motocross needs to be preserved and if we keep moving the goal posts to accomadate the whims of, "the bike is 20/25yrs old now" so therefore its a vintage and should have a class for it to race in, will only lose the magic that Classic Motocross is all about, preserving an era in time. Just because time marchs on doesnt mean that the eras of Vintage Motocross have to march with it. Thats the whole point of Vintage Motocross.
Imagine you'd just heard an old bloke saying the same thing about old cars. What sort of bloke do you picture?
If the bikes of 1985 and onwards are so prevalent to the modern motocrosser of today/yesterday wouldnt they themselves be fighting to have a 'retro class' at their modern meetings?
???
They're just old bikes with no relevance to 99.9% of current MX riders, which is why they need to be a part of the old bike scene.
The 'one specific era' thing died with the introduction of pre-80.
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Graeme,
Just want to let you know I can understand what your saying.
Cheers
Noel
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They're just old bikes with no relevance to 99.9% of current MX riders, which is why they need to be a part of the old bike scene
Nathan i think you will find there just old bikes with no relevance to the same percentage of vmx riders ;)
In fact there just old bikes :P
They got no soul
A vmx bike has soul 8)
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Graeme,
Just want to let you know I can understand what your saying.
Cheers
Noel
I do too, when you sit an think about it seriously, its a good idea that he has come up with and thats comming from me whos not a big fan of pre 90/95 but at the same time i dont 'hate' them so much i want to see them banished to the corner and ignorned. They have a place in history and and there are people who can relate to that era of bike.
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Nathan i think you will find there just old bikes with no relevance to the same percentage of vmx riders ;)
Maybe, maybe not - but in any case, when did we become such a bunch of old women that we can't tolerate the idea of people having fun?
We're sounding like the stupid nimby wankers who bitch and moan about live music/trail bikes/whatever. "I just don't like it, and I want it stopped" or "There's a time and a place for that, and its not here!", etc...
Local club days usually have far more packed programmes.
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.
What I do think needs to happen is that the most progressive/innovative time of motocross needs to be preserved and if we keep moving the goal posts to accomadate the whims of, "the bike is 20/25yrs old now" so therefore its a vintage and should have a class for it to race in, will only lose the magic that Classic Motocross is all about, preserving an era in time. Just because time marchs on doesnt mean that the eras of Vintage Motocross have to march with it. Thats the whole point of Vintage Motocross.
Thanks DJ, the above paragraph encapsulates my thoughts on the continuous 'modernisation' of vintage motocross. Let's get the great mix that we've already got working to its full potential.
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Hmmm... maybe it's my language skills. I *used* to think I did English OK. :o
DJ says:
Just because time marchs on doesnt mean that the eras of Vintage Motocross have to march with it. Thats the whole point of Vintage Motocross.
But... time DOES march on. And by moving on defining and preserving the various eras and what they represent, we prevent the loss of those eras to the sport.
Graeme, I have always thought your written word was spot on. I didnt have a problem understanding what you were saying, I fully got it. As I quoted at the start of this thread and thoughout the copied thread, I was saying the same thing. There needs to be sub-categories under the banner of Classic Motocross. And I understand why you would want to put it in the MOMs but I worry that each time a newer era class is introduced at club level will it be at the detriment of an older class.
A sport can evolve without having to move with the times. Its more to do with how we as Classic Motocrossers evolve our sport, and it seems to me that we are heading down that road of 'just adding new eras' rather than trying to get more people involved in what we have already.
Dont get me wrong, as I have said I do fully understand your concept and the reasons for it, yes it is as I have said before a great idea and maybe many clubs will choose to stay as the status quo, but what would happen if clubs thought that they could make more money 'easily' by bringing in these newer eras? Would that mean less track time for the classes that we have now? Would it/could it mean that some of the older lesser number's classes get dropped from the meeting? Time will tell. Once again, I'm not saying that what you have proposed is bad or wrong because its not and yes it would work. What I am saying is, do we need it... do we have to include eras in classic/vintage motocross that werent there at the start. By this I mean who are we catering for? If it is 'everyone' then we already have that as modern motocross.
Are we by introducing this type of system crossing the line from "same old dirt" and "in the spirit" to "old dirt bike racing" or "retro motocross"?
Pre 85, Pre 90 or Pre 95 are part of a continuum. And the people who were 18 or so that rode those bikes will one day want to recreate their youth. I don't race VMX just because it's a magical era. Hell, I had no interest in MX back then. rather, I do so because it is reliving the sights, sounds and spirit of my youth. Isnt that a magical era then?
Pre 85 didn't happen because of some magical technical aspect of those bikes. It happened because younger guys got to the point they wanted to relive THEIR youth, and they wanted to ride those bikes, not the Pre 75 things that they laughed at when they were 18. Sorry Graeme, do we need people like that... but thats what we as VMXers need to change, and by saying that isnt it like saying all older bikes before my time are laughable, and thats the exact attitude that we need to change and evolve not discourage by having as many eras so people never need to ride older bikes.
I repeat, this does not mean that clubs need to add the new classes to their race day. Why on earth is that the conclusion? If there is beer in the fridge, does that mean it will stay there? The new classes exist to offer direction. I see your point but doesnt VMX already have a direction Clubs can adopt new classes if their members wish, just as happened with Pre 85. Or they can say NO to modern bikes, as HEAVEN has. Or the fans of Pre 95 can start their own club. Now this is exactly what needs to happen. Why not leave VMX as VMX and let these guys approach MA and start a completely new category in the MOMs and call it RETRO MOTOCROSS because I'm sure it will be more about the racing than about the bikes, and if they so wish to invite classic motocrossers to their meetings so be it and the RETRO boys can have as many eras as they want.
[/quote]
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.... I struggle to see how a watercooled, linkaged bike with disc brakes, powervalves and safety seats are called vintage but that is now what has happened.
What I do think needs to happen is that the most progressive/innovative time of motocross needs to be preserved and if we keep moving the goal posts to accomadate the whims of, "the bike is 20/25yrs old now" so therefore its a vintage and should have a class for it to race in, will only lose the magic that Classic Motocross is all about, preserving an era in time. Just because time marchs on doesnt mean that the eras of Vintage Motocross have to march with it. Thats the whole point of Vintage Motocross.
Imagine you'd just heard an old bloke saying the same thing about old cars. What sort of bloke do you picture?
Sorry Nathan, I'm not sure what your saying or meaning, but if its about cars moving with the times then good on them, this isnt car racing so what is your point. After all your usually the one who asks for points and informative debate or discussion.
If the bikes of 1985 and onwards are so prevalent to the modern motocrosser of today/yesterday wouldnt they themselves be fighting to have a 'retro class' at their modern meetings?
???
They're just old bikes with no relevance to 99.9% of current MX riders, which is why they need to be a part of the old bike scene.
The modern guys dont want them so the vintage guys have to take them, and more than likely to the detriment of our sport as we have now?
The old bike scene?? Is that what VMX means to you?
It seems to me that people believe that new eras need to be introduced to VMX because of personal agendas and or a cheap form of racing. In all honesty Graeme's idea to categorizing older motocross bikes sooner than latter is maybe what is needed but for myself after going to many different types of vmx and modern meetings the attitudes of some of the riders is about as different as how their bikes look and handle. Is this what we really need?
The 'one specific era' thing died with the introduction of pre-80.
Maybe, maybe not. The bikes are still twinshocked, aircooled with drum brakes. That to me says its still within the realms of the vintage concept.
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It wasn't just your comment I was directing my response to DJ, though those paragraphs serveed to illustrate where I thought people were missing the point.
Clubs serve members interests, or at least I hope they do. If a club runs the vintage classes because that's what members want, it's unlikely they'll suddenly start running a whole bunch of Pre95 races.
I'd have thought they'll respond to the 'market' so to speak.
So I can't imagine why if we create a Pre 90/95 division, clubs would suddenly start running those to the detriment of their core base. Sure, if enough young blokes (I mean 35-45 there) turn up wanting to race that, they may add a class. If so, their base grows. And like Pre85, some of those guys may be switched on to the older classes.
Clubs may choose to reduce the number of vintage classes, but if the interest grows again they may then re-introduce them. Clubs should react to members needs, surely?
I am NOT advocating introducing new classes and forcing clubs to adopt them. I am suggesting we influence how things will change in time. We could say that Evo 2 cannot be a championship cl;ass until 2015. But clubs can have a demo class, or run club l;evel races for that class if they wish. It offeers a choice based on an agreed formula.
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I must admit I haven't read my way through all of this so it's probably been said already......
What's wrong with riding your post 90 bike in the Vets classes of your local clubbies and region meetings? If you and your mates just have to be riding these bikes then that'd be the place to get started before you have a set class in what is the more main-stream VMX. You'd be more than competitive with the moderns in that class if you set 'em up right (no I don't mean $$$ in suspension, just get 'em set up right) and you might get a band of guys together all on the same type of bikes. When you've generated enough interest and have some firm numbers (not "a bit of interest on The Forum"), take it to your VMX governing body.
You might even have some fun along the way..... :)
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I race pre75, pre90 and Modern, which is interesting because if I am to believe whats being said in this thread the only reason I ride a Pre 90 is because I'm too cheap /too scared to ride with the modern bikes ??? From what I've seen in Vic the whole generalization that its a class for cheapskates that couldn't cut in in modern racing couldn't be further from the truth...the majority of the guys were quite handy!
I've ridden my Pre 90 Cr500 in Modern class on Modern tracks in the last year and anyone who thinks a CR500 is even in the same universe as a CRF450 has no idea how far bikes and tracks have progressed, yes they both have disc brakes and long travel and thats about where the similarities end.
A lot of the arguments being put up have come straight out of the flat earth society guide book. There is nothing to fear!!
Regadless of what ever new classes are dreamed up /introduced the spirtual base of pre 75 will always be the focus of VMX and that is not going to change for a long time to come. I agree with Graeme, just because there is a class doesn't mean clubs will run it or riders will ride it, it will be driven by the market. Pre 90 works in Vic and has found its place, this doesn't mean every club has to start doing it and there needs to be an Aussie title etc.
Mid to late 80's 2 strokes, especially the big bores were one of the most significant eras in the history of MX and needs to be preserved and encouraged just as Pre 75 bikes are.
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They're just old bikes with no relevance to 99.9% of current MX riders, which is why they need to be a part of the old bike scene
Nathan i think you will find there just old bikes with no relevance to the same percentage of vmx riders ;)
In fact there just old bikes :P
They got no soul
A vmx bike has soul 8)
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...
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I've ridden my Pre 90 Cr500 in Modern class on Modern tracks in the last year and anyone who thinks a CR500 is even in the same universe as a CRF450 has no idea how far bikes and tracks have progressed, yes they both have disc brakes and long travel and thats about where the similarities end.
Agreed. A CR 500 is going to find it hard to cut it on a motocross track and I doubt most people could stick with a modern 450 on one. However a post 90 250 is a different beast again.
I too think that all the energy that would have to go into getting a Pre95 class up and going would be better spent on improving what we already have.
At the end of the day it's a lot of talk on an old guys forum. I doubt many people would get off their arses to make it happen. :P
* I doubt any post 85 500's were really built to be ridden fast on motocross tracks. Not the tracks with corners anyhow....
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Yep I agree about post 90 250's, they are much the same as what followed and I think thats why pre 95 will never be a relevant class and there will never be much interest as there is nothing that really defines that era. All the 90-96 bikes were a bit blaah. Great bikes to ride but nothing stands out about them...then in 97 things got interesting again :)
Thats why I don't think anyone should be worried about Pre90 or if it ever happens Pre95, I think at best Pre 90 will always remain a smaller support class of the main VMX scene.
I think it might be a bit like the classic road race scene, The era of the Manx's etc will always be the focus. Other more modern classes may have a flash in the pan for a few years but the strength of the main classes will remian the same
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Actually I've seen Simon Healy clean up the modern 450/250's on his KX 500 but he's a freak! :P
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Sorry Nathan, I'm not sure what your saying or meaning, but if its about cars moving with the times then good on them, this isnt car racing so what is your point. After all your usually the one who asks for points and informative debate or discussion.
Wasn't specifically talking about car racing but, if I convert your statement to be about cars:
... I struggle to see how post-war cars with disc brakes, a synchro gearbox and seat belts are called vintage but that is now what has happened.
What I do think needs to happen is that the most progressive/innovative time of car design needs to be preserved and if we keep moving the goal posts to accomadate the whims of, "the car is 20/25yrs old now" so therefore its a vintage and should have a class for it to race in, will only lose the magic that have Classic cars are all about, preserving an era in time. Just because time marchs on doesnt mean that the eras of Classic Cars have to march with it. Thats the whole point of Classic Cars.
Am I the only one picturing an impposibly stubbon, snooty old prick with a 1934 Wolsley? Someone who dismisses a 48/215 as being modern? Someone who refuses to re-join his car club because they accepted the membership of someone who's MGA has the wrong steering wheel on it!?!
I know you're not that guy DJ, hence why I think it's funny/disturbing that you sounded like him.
...so the vintage guys have to take them, and more than likely to the detriment of our sport as we have now?
How will it be to the detriment? The sky will not fall in, just like it didn't when pre-85 was introduced (despite the same arguments being trotted out then). Hoplessly outdated bikes, usually being ridden by old blokes - and pre-90 is clearly at that point now.
Edit: And I do appreciate the sensible input!
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Am I the only one picturing an impposibly stubbon, snooty old prick with a 1934 Wolsley?
I'm thinking you are, as comparisons go, this discussion seems to be about a fairly different scenario
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Sorry Nathan, I'm not sure what your saying or meaning, but if its about cars moving with the times then good on them, this isnt car racing so what is your point. After all your usually the one who asks for points and informative debate or discussion.
Wasn't specifically talking about car racing but, if I convert your statement to be about cars:
... I struggle to see how post-war cars with disc brakes, a synchro gearbox and seat belts are called vintage but that is now what has happened.
What I do think needs to happen is that the most progressive/innovative time of car design needs to be preserved and if we keep moving the goal posts to accomadate the whims of, "the car is 20/25yrs old now" so therefore its a vintage and should have a class for it to race in, will only lose the magic that have Classic cars are all about, preserving an era in time. Just because time marchs on doesnt mean that the eras of Classic Cars have to march with it. Thats the whole point of Classic Cars.
Am I the only one picturing an impposibly stubbon, snooty old prick with a 1934 Wolsley? Someone who dismisses a 48/215 as being modern? Someone who refuses to re-join his car club because they accepted the membership of someone who's MGA has the wrong steering wheel on it!?!
I know you're not that guy DJ, hence why I think it's funny/disturbing that you sounded like him.
...so the vintage guys have to take them, and more than likely to the detriment of our sport as we have now?
How will it be to the detriment? The sky will not fall in, just like it didn't when pre-85 was introduced (despite the same arguments being trotted out then). Hoplessly outdated bikes, usually being ridden by old blokes - and pre-90 is clearly at that point now.
Edit: And I do appreciate the sensible input!
Ok Nathan I see your point, so lets take "your" scenero (and I will explain the detriment to the older bikes at the same time) a step further.
The new guy that has come along wont care that the old club member has now gone will he. The new guy brings along a few mates, and they dont care that the old guy is gone, but now some of the old guys friends in the club are feeling perplexed by what has happened and start to leave. Of course the new guys dont care that much because these old guys were stupid old sticks in the mud. But these old guys had the older cars, and the knowledge to rebuild/restore and generally keep their old cars going through years of knowledge/skill/ and the can do attitude(lost forever). Now, as time marches on and the next era come along a similar thing happens, but this era just so happens to be the era when parts were bought and never knocked up in the shed and the only work they have done on their cars is reach into their pockets and pay the man.
Their is something about the newer generation, and getting their hands dirty but the more time marches on the more this seems prevalent, so maybe these newer eras may never get used but if they do......
VMX started with a cut off date of pre75 and then it moved to pre80 and now it is at pre85 and lets look at the other end of the eras. Pre60, where is it? Pre65 is rapidly declining and non existant in alot of clubs. Pre70 is looking every similar to pre65 and now with the Pre90 and Pre95 fans knocking on the door what will be the next class to drop? Will pre78 have to move in with evo? Pre75 may have the numbers now but in another few years how will vmx be looking?
If the cap fits I'll wear it, call me Mr 34 Wolsley if you like, but the era of Vintage Motocross as we know it will be gone and lost just like the skills and knowledge with it.
Call me what you like but I say I dont want to loose what we have now, .... Say NO to era movements havent we already lost enough.
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I must admit I haven't read my way through all of this so it's probably been said already......
What's wrong with riding your post 90 bike in the Vets classes of your local clubbies and region meetings? If you and your mates just have to be riding these bikes then that'd be the place to get started before you have a set class in what is the more main-stream VMX. You'd be more than competitive with the moderns in that class if you set 'em up right (no I don't mean $$$ in suspension, just get 'em set up right) and you might get a band of guys together all on the same type of bikes. When you've generated enough interest and have some firm numbers (not "a bit of interest on The Forum"), take it to your VMX governing body.
You might even have some fun along the way..... :)
Well said Ross :)
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Ok Nathan I see your point, so lets take "your" scenero (and I will explain the detriment to the older bikes at the same time) a step further.
The new guy that has come along wont care that the old club member has now gone will he. The new guy brings along a few mates, and they dont care that the old guy is gone, but now some of the old guys friends in the club are feeling perplexed by what has happened and start to leave. Of course the new guys dont care that much because these old guys were stupid old sticks in the mud. But these old guys had the older cars, and the knowledge to rebuild/restore and generally keep their old cars going through years of knowledge/skill/ and the can do attitude(lost forever).
Now we're getting somewhere! :)
I have to question why the old stick-in-the-mud feels the need to leave. All the reasons for him originally being involved in the club are still there - what are his reasons for leaving?
I've really tried to understand why people are so vehmenently against newer eras, but completely failed. In one of the other threads, someone asked why/how pre-90 would be a problem for any anti-pre-90 punter. The question was totally ignored, which leads me to conclude that there is no answer.
I've got no real interest in the really early era stuff, but I appreciate that other people do, and there's no reason for me to object to it being a part of the race programme. In fact, I recognise that they're a part of MX history and we should be preserving the bikes.
Still can't fathom why this isn't the case when you talk about newer eras.
If we take a step back, everyone involved in old dirt bikes must be at least a bit weird. Real modern bikes are cheap, easy to get bits for, and work brilliantly. To own anything more than about 10 years old is because:
a) you're really poor (too poor to race bikes at least),
b) not that interested in bikes ("Yeah, I got a Suzuki YZ285. Its a 1995 model wif the two shocks at the back - it goes real good. I ride it at me uncle's farm every Easter, aye!"), or
c) Are an old bike nutter.
I really don't understand why those of us in group (c) always feel the need to factionalise and bitch about each other.
We're all in it for the love of the old bikes - bikes that we owned/wished that we owned when they were new, bikes that we recognise as important/worthwhile bikes in the history of bikes, etc. But for some reason, anyone who doesn't totally share your exact passion for the exact same bikes* is someone who can never be trusted and is probably going to try to knife you the instant you drop your guard.... In fact, you should object to everything they say, because they are probably trying to fork you over, right now! OMG! ::)
What's wrong with embracing people/interests that are 99% the same as our own? Are we really so insecure that we cannot possibly contemplate anything even a little bit different?
*I realise the irony in this - DJR's and my bike collections have a lot of overlap! :)
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I don't think that people in "group (c) are like that. I've said before that if I had the money, the space, and a much more understanding wife, my shed (actually it would be more like an aircraft hangar) would be full of bikes (and other bits of interesting machinery) from probably the twenties up.
I could quite happily fit in a Brough Superior, a '37 Triumph Speed Twin, a few bikes from the 50's and 60's, in fact, I don't have enough time left on this planet to think about and list all the bikes and cars I'd love to own from a multitude of era's.
I think that what people are against is losing what they have.
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I pressed the "do" button before I'd finished typing ::)
anyway, what I was trying to say is, the current crop are happy (reasonably) with the status quo. They'd probably be happier with more bikes/ riders admittedly. Adding later classes of bikes to Clubs/events that were initially formed to celebrate and enjoy much earlier bikes, does not seem to be a popular way of boosting numbers at clubs/events. Having younger guys (and by no way am I trying to imply that the younger generation are the antichrist, so please drop that one) join clubs on more modern bikes, will have to lead to track changes and less ride time for other classes, it just stands to reason.
Instead of all this, how about putting the grey matter to work trying to figure out how to get more people interested in the earlier stuff? I've been crapping on ad-nauseum at work about vintage bikes to the point where two of the guys I know have joined up. Admittedly they were bike nuts to start with, but they were on modern trailbikes. How many of you go trailriding with, or know guys in their 30's, 40's, 50's, that you could pester into coming along to a vintage race? If you're serious enough about this stuff, bring them to a practice day and lend them one of your bikes for the day?
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Ok Nathan I see your point, so lets take "your" scenero (and I will explain the detriment to the older bikes at the same time) a step further.
The new guy that has come along wont care that the old club member has now gone will he. The new guy brings along a few mates, and they dont care that the old guy is gone, but now some of the old guys friends in the club are feeling perplexed by what has happened and start to leave. Of course the new guys dont care that much because these old guys were stupid old sticks in the mud. But these old guys had the older cars, and the knowledge to rebuild/restore and generally keep their old cars going through years of knowledge/skill/ and the can do attitude(lost forever).
Now we're getting somewhere! :)
I have to question why the old stick-in-the-mud feels the need to leave. All the reasons for him originally being involved in the club are still there - what are his reasons for leaving?
I didnt say he left, you did in your scenero Someone who refuses to re-join his car club
I've really tried to understand why people are so vehmenently against newer eras, but completely failed. In one of the other threads, someone asked why/how pre-90 would be a problem for any anti-pre-90 punter. The question was totally ignored, which leads me to conclude that there is no answer.
Did I not give you 'one' of the answers?
Nathan, we have different eras now so why the big push to increase the year cut offs?
Instead of asking why its not wanted, because you have clearly missed people's explanations of why. When you should be asking yourself why you have to have it.
And sorry Graeme for the thread hi-jack, I know your not saying bring more eras in and yet once again any thread like this turns into a pre90 debate.
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Interestingly enough there is a post on Marks Swapmeet in the U.S dealing with this same issue so its not just our little crew with the conniptions.
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Nathan, we have different eras now so why the big push to increase the year cut offs?
Instead of asking why its not wanted, because you have clearly missed people's explanations of why. When you should be asking yourself why you have to have it.
And sorry Graeme for the thread hi-jack, I know your not saying bring more eras in and yet once again any thread like this turns into a pre90 debate.
Why the push to include newer eras?
Two main reasons:
1. I want to be able to race the bikes that really lusted over when I was a kid, against/among my peers, despite the fact that history has rendered them redundant. This is the exact same reason why the rest of the VMX racing scene exists.
2.They're a logical and productive step for the sport. ALL other forms of historic motor racing are happy to bring newer eras on board, but we somehow choose to keep our sport as small as possible, while complaining that its small... (yes, there are other ways to make it larger, but they're not happening [either]).
There's no tangible reason why running a pre-90 and/or pre-95 class at a VMX day will actually negatively impact on the existing punters. We talk about the concept of "dilution", but that only becomes an issue if you make it one. If you're doing what you want to do, then the addition of pre-90/95 bikes is irrelevant.
There
There's a ton of other reasons
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Hang on Nathan - "I want" to ride against my peers in AGE classes - doesn't sit with you as a viable reason for age racing - therefore can I say you "wanting" to race bikes that you lusted after also isn't a viable reason - bugger that eh! ;D
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Not bad Rossco. ;D
If you step back, everything to do with every sport is about "Want" - its not life or death.
Way I see it, wanting (and being denied) pre-90 racing means that you simply cannot reasonably use a bike that you (would like to) own.
Alternatively, even if you're denied age-group racing, you still get to use your vintage bike among its peers.
Neither is life or death, but one makes it virtually impossible to use a whole stack of bikes, while the other is basically an administration issue.
(FWIW: I was never against 'age racing' - I just didn't accept that one-age-group-only races were going to solve all of the world's problems).
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To give my view why some older guys fade away from racing with newer bikes.
From what I've seen in VMX, a few of the older riders on older bikes have given racing a rest because the majority of tracks we in NSW have to use aren't too pre75 & old guy friendly any more, and the guys on newer bikes just don't see it as a problem, as the suspension they have copes reasonably well.
Plus the long travel, higher horsepower bikes rip the tracks up further and a whole new set of bumps, ruts, and stutters appear. Just look at what happens to Crawford River Classic each year, a chopped up mess.
I also note that in Victoria the Viper guys have there racing alongside the moderns so there's no problem for pre 90 or 95 classes. The original Classic Club is a separate club for the older bikes. (Correct me if I'm wrong pls)
Older riders often give up the task of fighting the pain, to ride on a track that is chewed out by the longer travel bikes.
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(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/Rondex_-_0054.jpg?t=1284817393) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
To give my view why some older guys fade away from racing with newer bikes.
From what I've seen in VMX, a few of the older riders on older bikes have given racing a rest because the majority of tracks we in NSW have to use aren't too pre75 & old guy friendly any more, and the guys on newer bikes just don't see it as a problem, as the suspension they have copes reasonably well.
Plus the long travel, higher horsepower bikes rip the tracks up further and a whole new set of bumps, ruts, and stutters appear. Just look at what happens to Crawford River Classic each year, a chopped up mess.
I also note that in Victoria the Viper guys have there racing alongside the moderns so there's no problem for pre 90 or 95 classes. The original Classic Club is a separate club for the older bikes. (Correct me if I'm wrong pls)
Older riders often give up the task of fighting the pain, to ride on a track that is chewed out by the longer travel bikes.
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Actually... that IS an idea.
VMX is Vintage MX for bikes made before Pre 85 and run to current rules (tho we need to do something about Evo).
RMX is Retro MX for the bikes from 1985 on. And the first era is Evo 2 from 1985 to 1990, ?? 1990 to 1995 and then New Era 95 to 2000. Retro works as a concept and can just keep on adding classes - it's old dirtbikes. But Vintage MX is the original and the greatest.
I need to start a new website - OzRetroMX...
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Correct me if i am wrong here but hasnt the UK accepted pre 90 with a warm welcome into the vintage scene and pre 90 is a big part of the Farleigh Castle event? Yes UK is not us but if they can accept it, why cant we?. I see there is a lot of guys restoring and building 87, 88, 89 YZ's, CR's. RM's etc, pre 90 seems massive over there.
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Correct me if i am wrong here but hasnt the UK accepted pre 90 with a warm welcome into the vintage scene and pre 90 is a big part of the Farleigh Castle event? Yes UK is not us but if they can accept it, why cant we?. I see there is a lot of guys restoring and building 87, 88, 89 YZ's, CR's. RM's etc, pre 90 seems massive over there.
Leith they also think its cool to cut up single shockers , add twin shocks and race them against true twinshockers ::)
The Poms are the last one to follow :-[
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There's no tangible reason why running a pre-90 and/or pre-95 class at a VMX day will actually negatively impact on the existing punters. We talk about the concept of "dilution", but that only becomes an issue if you make it one. If you're doing what you want to do, then the addition of pre-90/95 bikes is irrelevant.
Nathan, I'm doing what I like doing now (riding vmx/racing vmx/restoring and socializing vmx) with no pre90/95 bikes around, but bring them into the scene and it will have an impact and that is very relevant.
Actually... that IS an idea.
VMX is Vintage MX for bikes made before Pre 85 and run to current rules (tho we need to do something about Evo).
RMX is Retro MX for the bikes from 1985 on. And the first era is Evo 2 from 1985 to 1990, ?? 1990 to 1995 and then New Era 95 to 2000. Retro works as a concept and can just keep on adding classes - it's old dirtbikes. But Vintage MX is the original and the greatest.
I need to start a new website - OzRetroMX...
This is the best thing I have ever read.
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There's no tangible reason why running a pre-90 and/or pre-95 class at a VMX day will actually negatively impact on the existing punters. We talk about the concept of "dilution", but that only becomes an issue if you make it one. If you're doing what you want to do, then the addition of pre-90/95 bikes is irrelevant.
Nathan, I'm doing what I like doing now (riding vmx/racing vmx/restoring and socializing vmx) with no pre90/95 bikes around, but bring them into the scene and it will have an impact and that is very relevant.
Actually... that IS an idea.
VMX is Vintage MX for bikes made before Pre 85 and run to current rules (tho we need to do something about Evo).
RMX is Retro MX for the bikes from 1985 on. And the first era is Evo 2 from 1985 to 1990, ?? 1990 to 1995 and then New Era 95 to 2000. Retro works as a concept and can just keep on adding classes - it's old dirtbikes. But Vintage MX is the original and the greatest.
I need to start a new website - OzRetroMX...
This is the best thing I have ever read.
Bullshit DJ :o You told me the best thing you ever read was Penthouse march 1975 when you were 12 ;D
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I'm guessing he meant best he'd read today :D
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Nathan, I'm doing what I like doing now (riding vmx/racing vmx/restoring and socializing vmx) with no pre90/95 bikes around, but bring them into the scene and it will have an impact and that is very relevant.
OK, no worries - what's the impact on you? Real stuff that actually affects you, not "I don't like his hair" or "Did you hear who he's going out with?"...
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This is crap. My only question to Nathan is are you going to be happy to ride these Pre95 bikes (that you lusted so over) on real motocross tracks with bumpy bits where they all take off, bumpy bits where they slow down and a real big bumpy bit where they land? Because if I saw one being ridden around a farmers paddock or on an oval somewhere I think Id have to put my foot through the screen.
That's not where 90's bikes were ridden...... :-[ :-[
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What about the thumper nats, they were on natural terrain.
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Oh all right......
If you build yourself a 1984 XR 400 into a CR frame you can ride around in a paddock on it...... ::)
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yawn, enough changes and classes exist, why on earth does anyone have to prove anything to you Nathan, are you some god that we should worship, i think not, how many times do you have to repeat yourself, i think we all heard you the first time, learn to disagree mate and move on. at the moment your just a shit stirrer and you lose any creditability by the way( yawn) you hold yourself to be debated.
Geez, go and enjoy your family!
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he would gain more respect by typing less, he comes accross smug.
Trev
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Actually... that IS an idea.
VMX is Vintage MX for bikes made before Pre 85 and run to current rules (tho we need to do something about Evo).
RMX is Retro MX for the bikes from 1985 on. And the first era is Evo 2 from 1985 to 1990, ?? 1990 to 1995 and then New Era 95 to 2000. Retro works as a concept and can just keep on adding classes - it's old dirtbikes. But Vintage MX is the original and the greatest.
I need to start a new website - OzRetroMX...
This is the best thing I have ever read.
Bullshit DJ :o You told me the best thing you ever read was Penthouse march 1975 when you were 12 ;D
[/quote]
I didnt read Penthouse march 1975, I thought it was a pictures only book.... ;D
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Nathan, I'm doing what I like doing now (riding vmx/racing vmx/restoring and socializing vmx) with no pre90/95 bikes around, but bring them into the scene and it will have an impact and that is very relevant.
OK, no worries - what's the impact on you? Real stuff that actually affects you, not "I don't like his hair" or "Did you hear who he's going out with?"...
The real stuff that affects me is 'in my opinion these arent what I consider Vintage' and I would pack up my toys and go. Thats the impact on me, just me, not anyone else.
I would then go off and race vintage else where.
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Yep, this thread has gone the same way as the pre-95 one...
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1052255/stuckrecordsmall.jpg)
And now for something completely different...
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1052255/Man-Brain.jpg)
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(http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu317/suzuki43/wbcchurchsign.jpg?t=1284894176)
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And now for something completely different...
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1052255/Man-Brain.jpg)
that very unfair AjayVMX :( .......................were is the vintage bike in that brain ;D
cheers A
Oops. Sorry Alison. Depends on the time of day... :o
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A fellow go's away for the week-end trail riding with some friends and loooooooook what happens.
lets shake it up guy's.
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ee61/funky-kitty.gif)
lets stop the rubbish
Who going to shake it up , get up and have a go to get this pre-90 show on the road.
No more talking about it, the good ,the bad and the ugly , not argue the point about whats vintage and whats not, actually get it together and have a meeting , not a talk fest meeting , "a ride meeting".
You just need to go to a club that has fair and open constitution , put up your idea , do a little bit of work to get the meeting going.
Why are people so hooked on "Heaven" doing it , the pre-90 thing. No good bagging them if they dont what to do it.
They are hard pressed getting though the programmes they have , and more to the point why should the people that volenteer their time to run the club have to put in even more time.
Have a little business plan and couple of sponsors , because based on the ideas , i have seen to date " NONE " i wouldnt back it.
You and your organising comittee mates probably wont get to ride because you will be busy getting it together to make it a real success , so the club you choose will make a profit for their efforts , but you wont mind becuase your so keen to get it going that doesnt matter.
I have little interest in riding that era of moto X bikes but i would like to watch them go round.
Basically , if you want it , actually do something about it ,because all this aimless chatter does your cause no good
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(http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu317/suzuki43/fcos.jpg?t=1284946789)
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Why are people so hooked on "Heaven" doing it , the pre-90 thing. No good bagging them if they dont what to do it.
Basically , if you want it , actually do something about it ,because all this aimless chatter does your cause no good
Hi Rob
I don't think people are hooked on HEAVEN doing it. It is just that the HEAVEN club already exists and was in fact started in the first place to give bikes later than pre '75 somewhere to ride.
My feelings on the matter extend more to my desire to see the long term viability of the HEAVEN club. The continual drop off of numbers in the earlier classes presents a risk that needs to be addressed for HEAVEN to continue to prosper in its current form. Personally I think that it will be a losing battle trying to entice more participation on earlier machines in NSW. I know pre '75 clubs work in other states, and good luck to them, but I am talking about NSW. I feel that the future recruitment of competitors lies in attracting 35-40 year olds. And no matter how you look at it the vast majority of these guys would have little interest in pre '75 bikes.
Cheers
Shaun
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Fair call Shaun
May-be not hooked on the idea , but lets be real honest here , they expect it.
But if people want pre-90 / 95 , those parties most interested should develope a plan .
What i was trying to get across prior to this , words , well words mean nothing and a great plan with positive actions speak for themselves.
And to keep it light hearted
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ee61/funky-kitty-1.gif)
If you dont get in the groove you wont get the move
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I note, with a great deal of amusement, the three full page picturess of 86+ bikes in the current issue of VMX.
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I note, with a great deal of amusement, the three full page picturess of 86+ bikes in the current issue of VMX.
Nathan,
I never realised you were so easily amused. 3.57% coverage in one issue doesn't really add much to your case.
The majority of posts have said that they like the bikes, and would be happy to watch them go around, but you keep coming back like a dog to a bone asking for 100% approval. Sorry I think you are going to be disappointed.
I'm with Shoey. This thread is 'fished out waters', the time for talk has passed, the time for action has arrived. So back to you…
Good luck
VMX42
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Having been entrenched in a number these drawn out philosophical discussions with Nathan in the past I've come to the conclusion that no matter what your opinion is on the particular subject is, if it's different to Nathans he'll keep hammering post after post to try and convince us poor bastards that he's right and that none of us are 'sensible' enough to see it. One by one everyone usually drops off the discussion, worn down by his bull terrier persistence and need to convince us that he's right.
I feel drained after one of these sessions, hence my early surrender in this particular debate. I feel like I've surrendered to the enemy to end the war. ::)
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note, with a great deal of amusement, the three full page picturess of 86+ bikes in the current issue of VMX.
Ha ha, i noticed that too, when i was reading the mag 10mins ago i saw that Husky and i was thinking that cant be pre 85 model but then i was also asking my self if there is a cut off at CD or not?. It didnt bother me though.
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Having been entrenched in a number these drawn out philosophical discussions with Nathan in the past I've come to the conclusion that no matter what your opinion is on the particular subject is, if it's different to Nathans he'll keep hammering post after post to try and convince us poor bastards that he's right and that none of us are 'sensible' enough to see it. One by one everyone usually drops off the discussion, worn down by his bull terrier persistence and need to convince us that he's right.
I feel drained after one of these sessions, hence my early surrender in this particular debate. I feel like I've surrendered to the enemy to end the war. ::)
If you are feeling a bit tuckered out I probably shouldn't mention: Dutch Twinshockers? Mining Tax? The federal election or Titanium then?
Just checking… 8)
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Ha ha, i noticed that too, when i was reading the mag 10mins ago i saw that Husky and i was thinking that cant be pre 85 model but then i was also asking my self if there is a cut off at CD or not?. It didnt bother me though.
That's 100% my fault. I liked the shot - simple as that - no political agenda in mind! ;)
You try wading through 3000 photos of CD7 and see what you choose.
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Yes I noticed that too , if that is the future .... , well thats VMX s choice ......maybe they are right and maybe they are wrong ... if it sells more copies in the long run , then they are right . And if all the true VMX supportes still travel to CD littered with waterbottles , well then they are definitely right .
Now who is not listening!!!!!!!!!!! I just liked the photo!!!!!!!!!!!!! No committees involved, no political, or hidden agenda, I just liked the shot!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please don't read anything more into it, for goodness sake. :-\
Seriously, can we not run with this line of comment any further. :)
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IMO, on the basis of what I have read, absorbed,been beaten about the head with and politely asked, I think the TIME HAS COME to give these pre-90 heretics a go. Simple because they will not go away.
A well ridden TT500 will beat most new bike(post 90 etc) punters around a dirt track, but the same is albeit impossible around an MX track (vintage friendly or not). If we are talking about Vintage Motocross then the Classes need to be more development/era restricted to "level the playing field" and probably more important is the creation of age groups for pre-85,Evo,etc. I think this would get a few more to the races - if the 48yr old doesn't have to race the 18yr old in pre-85 etc.
What is vintage? We don't need the "Dutch Twin Shockers" etc, but "progress " shouldn't just be for the sake of it .
I own bikes from 74 to 08 and love them all but the changes from 65 to 85 were monumental; links ,discs and watercooling had arrived! After 85-90 they all tend to lookalike.
If punters cannot relate to what makes the current VMX guidelines so popular then they can't be helped.
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To add to the grassy knoll theory of the post 84 bikes taking large colour portions of the CD7 story, let me interject this (if it’s already been brought up please pardon me as I can’t bear to go through the pages to check);
Is it the thin end of the wedge as far as pre 90 making its debut at CD8? Is it worse that the photos were printed in a “V”-mx magazine or that they were allowed to break a sacred rule and participate in the first place (no participation, no possible photos)?
Is it a question of “don’t ask, don’t tell” for this model creep?
Hmmmmmmmmm... intrigued minds want to know.
As for the rest of it... if you want free porn and prawns on Thursdays, throw a coup in your local club and see if anyone shows up. The rest is verbal masturbation.
Wakey wakey, hands off snakey.
Cuddles,
ER
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the sport is not ready or need pre90 or pre95, yes to any club adding it if their memmbers choose to, but to say anything other is waisting your breath, It must start at root levels and build from there,
oh i can hear Nathan, but why.
because thats how it will happen! "due process" it's called.
Cheers Worms
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love your work Evil! a true wordsmith if there ever was one!
Cheers Worms
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I note, with a great deal of amusement, the three full page picturess of 86+ bikes in the current issue of VMX.
Nathan,
I never realised you were so easily amused. 3.57% coverage in one issue doesn't really add much to your case.
Oh lordy yes - I am easily amused!
After all the venom and the vitriole, I can only assume that CD7 did actually cause a significant riff in the time-space continum - it really is amazing that people could possibly enjoy themselves when those stinking pre-90 bikes were there... What's that you say Skippy? It doesn't really matter?
Or are people going to boycott CD8 en masse?
And being a stubborn prick is one of my more endearing traits.
Seriously, the pre-90 discussion typically gets badly side tracked and I thought it was time to play hard - to keep shooting down the silly, baseless and/or illogical arguments.
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your a nutter mate! and I pitty any club you may be involved with.
Cheers Trev
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Looks like one of those topics that just goes on & on.
Nathan as usual uses a lot of good logic in his posts and ideas that are sometimes hard to argue with.
I believe Nathan may actually be from the planet Vulcan.
At the very least he’s from another planet anyway. ;D
At first a lot of the replies seemed to border along the lines of “but this amp goes up to eleven” which just goes to drag this whole thing out.
Good to see some good debate going on now.
Vintage, Classic or Retro, whatever you want to call it is based on logic and emotion. We’re into it for the emotion and the logic helps set the guidelines.
While Graeme has a very good idea about building for the future, as in planning it before it happens I think that it works the other way around.
MA didn’t make vintage rules and then people started using them.
It started by having vintage meetings first and then MA built the rules as recommended by the pioneers.
We could make a good set of rules for the future only to be ignored because the people want something else.
I can understand post 90 classes happening at some point, although I think most that would be into it haven’t started their mid life crisis yet.
And I agree with the point that post 90 should be catered for by being added to modern club days.
I find it hard to believe that a club day in NSW is so busy that they couldn’t fit something in. I know my own club would have no problem catering for it if I so desired. All I would need to do is attract enough riders to make the class.
In answer to the original question…
Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?
I believe Pre 90’s time has come.
While I am in favour of Pre 90 I don’t believe we should have Pre90 & Pre75 on the same track on the same day.
As for Pre 95, I believe its still something for the future.
As for VMX Mag being watered down with Pre 90 I know that Ray used one of my shots of Dacky on an 85 YZ in No 19.
I think Ray just liked the shot too and it flew under the radar because people weren’t looking so hard to bitch.
He also used a shot of Wards 85 bike in an article too somewhere.
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your a nutter mate! and I pitty any club you may be involved with.
Cheers Trev
Right back at ya, big fella.
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one of your shortest replies ever, wonder if it will catch on?
hey' isnt it past your bed time
Cheers Trev
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your a nutter mate! and I pitty any club you may be involved with.
Cheers Trev
Lets not make this personal ::)
Nathans alright :) i think he has bikes ranging from pre 70 to 200? , he rides em all and doesn't need a million dollar show pony to enjoy the sport.
This is a forum and if Nathan wishes to push his point thats his right , I dont agree with his views on this matter but i do respect him as a passionete VMXer and good bastard :D
Now lets play nicely ;)
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Jeff - mining tax..............................ready to go again eh!!!! ;D Count me in ::)
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TM Bill, No. ;D
We will ignore this crap...
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1052255/Nocrap.jpg)
Now for some gratuitous Mitsubishi promo girls...
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1052255/SydMS0632.JPG)(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1052255/drooling.jpg)
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aw gee, I didnt mean to upset the little fellow, sorry Nathan, your just a very naughty boy!
is that better?
Cheers Trev
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Thank you Nathan.... for just putting up some honest and sensible arguments against the tide of cranky old man waves that batter the pre 90 beach like a never ending tempest that lashes its shore and steals its long held vintage sand.
If the word "vintage" only relates to MX bikes prior to "85" or "75" as some have suggested in this thread then what do people with vintage cars or aeroplanes do now that their "vintage" has been removed by a very small group of offroad motorcycle riders in Australia?
What do the wine growers do now that the word "vintage" has been commandeered and waved about as a flag of honour by the pre 75 crowd. Call each years new crop the annual?
Retro .. Isn't that something that you make in the modern world to look like it did in a previous era ???
Fair Dinkum!!
Vintage is a word that has grown from its origin to mean annual, and one day those pre 90 and even pre 95 will be accepted as vintage bikes and by then some of you stone-age mutant winging turtles will not have to worry if the "Vintage" thing happened or not for by then you will have your names carved in stone.
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There's obviously some confusion here. ::)
THIS is a VMX bike...
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1052255/img_9583_1.jpg)
This isn't
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1052255/GEs19926DaysKTM_1.jpg)
Nor is this...
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1052255/SydMS0602.JPG)
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Thank you Nathan....for just putting up some honest and sensible arguments against the tide of cranky old man waves that batter the pre 90 beach like a never ending tempest that lashes its shore and steals its long held vintage sand.
Holy moly!!! You've plagiarised Barbara Cartland. ;D
That KTM looks pretty familiar Ajay. I don't think it's original owner would think it's vintage either. ;)
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Having been entrenched in a number these drawn out philosophical discussions with Nathan in the past I've come to the conclusion that no matter what your opinion is on the particular subject is, if it's different to Nathans he'll keep hammering post after post to try and convince us poor bastards that he's right and that none of us are 'sensible' enough to see it. One by one everyone usually drops off the discussion, worn down by his bull terrier persistence and need to convince us that he's right.
I feel drained after one of these sessions, hence my early surrender in this particular debate. I feel like I've surrendered to the enemy to end the war. ::)
I know exactly how you feel Firko. I've been watching this thread and been tempted to post but thought, can I really be bothered entering another thread with the style of debate used :(.
Pre90 and later supporters need to stop telling everyone "Its time" and start the action that is the only way it will happen. I personally am not interested in these eras although I acknowledge that they will enter the Vintage / Classic / Post Classic / Pre Modern MX section of our sport at some time.
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Ok what have i missed :D :D
Meh ::) nothing...
All you need to know is after pre 75 nothing else matters......... ;) ;)
you can close the thread now ... 8)
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That KTM looks Vintage to me When was the last time you saw a center stand on a enduro bike?
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It's funny where this thread went. Everyone is down on Nathan yet I started it. Of course if you disagree with me like that I'll delete your post and ban you from the forum... forever. ;D
A lot of people are saying if you want Pre 90 or whatever go and do it. Well, people are. VIPER and QVMX are two clubs with Pre 90 as I understand it. I wasn't trying to say let's all go do it and the older bikes be buggered.
I was recognising it will happen, sometime sooner rather than later. Vintage as a recognised concept is simply old bikes (cars, movies etc). Not sure of the correct definition, but if it's 20 years then Pre 90 is now. If it's 30 years then it's only 5-10 years away.
I was simply saying that it would be good to set up the rules now to include later eras, so that when the time comes it can be done in the same way around Australia and no-one will need to reinvent the wheel. I was hoping for some serious debate about how those rules should look.
I completely accept that what we see as VMX is Pre 75 bikes and those Johnny come lately's Evo and Pre 85 bikes. But we can't forever ignore that eventually a Pre 95 bike will be 'vintage'. Maybe that's in 2025? Maybe it'll be a little earlier? All I intended was to set the scene for that to happen ion a measured way and at the same time lock in our notion of true vintage MX so it doesn't evenbtually get lost from the sport...
Still at the end of the day I am not especially passionate about it. Personally, I don't care really. Just seemed like a good idea. I shan't be buying a 1989 CR250 any time soon...
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natural progression thru clubs, not debates or rules and guidelines, any club can move forward if the members choose, but as a whole VMX needs to be protected at some point otherwise the whole meaning will be devalued.
your ideas are fair Graeme but do we really need anything other than what currently exist,
Nathan needs to realise his point is just that, allow others to have the same right without including a debating team.
we're just a bunch of silly old farts saying enough is enough, start to build new clubs for these generations and not expect everybody to agree that we have to be one family.
does that make sense?
Cheers Trev
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And being a stubborn prick is one of my more endearing traits.
I've never met one of those - I always assumed people were like me; full of charm, grace, style, elegance, warmth,tact, empathy and fashion sense! Yes Minister said it well - "In politics you have to learn to say things with tact and finesse, you berk!"
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The ongoing health of any club relies on the commitment and strength of its membership.
I am a member of NSW Heaven. Good to see the current health of the club and the addition of new membership, particularly that of a younger demographic. Great considering the natural retritian rate of members going to the real Heaven, grey nomad thing or just unable to use their collection because of incapacitating ill health.
I believe the indoctrination of new blood is detrimental to the long term survival of our movement. I like that new term “Retro Racing”, sadly allot of the young embrace retro as “cool” and “vintage” as a laughable fossil term.
One of my nephews has a 1989 Honda CR250. He is a keen off road motorcylist.
I have been trying to get a spare rear wheel for his bike for the local dirt track thing, as a path to his indoctrination to the older bikes. After his weekend exploits, it seems we now need two rear wheels.
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/FORUM043.jpg?t=1285016385)
Amazing that he was able to limp away from this.
To those building this new ground swell I say “good luck”. One of the greatest things in my recent life was the discovery and existence of a hard working movement called VMX. I see some way older blokes still in there for the hunt. They are happy and content, wether they win, place or draw. They have what it takes to earn my respect and admiration. If there is any room on the weekends agenda, I personally would prefer to see an extra one or two age races for them first. I hope this wonder world of retro VMX racing doesn’t die before I do.
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My problem with Pre 90/95 is! How do you police modifications and bike eligibility? Fitting disk brake calipers, rotors & forks of far newer bikes. It is very hard to differentiate between suspension forks of any newish bike. Just say I buy a 1989 totally original bike to race and some dude shows up with a 1989 model with brake components of a modern bike a set of forks that your not sure of what bike they came from. Are you going to let him race. Its happening now with Pre 90 bikes. It is far to easy to bend the rules and build a super trick bike. A Pre 90/95 bike is way different to more modern bikes, but so easy to sneak far superior parts onto. There will be more whinging and bickering about bikes than there is with the current format. With Pre85 and Evo its easy, every one knows bike eligibility by just looking at the bike.
I am only new to Heaven club this year, but I bought bikes to suit classes they run. Not a more modern bike, and hope to change rules. It is still pretty easy to get a Evo or Pre85 bike.
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My problem with Pre 90/95 is! How do you police modifications and bike eligibility? Fitting disk brake calipers, rotors & forks of far newer bikes. It is very hard to differentiate between suspension forks of any newish bike. Just say I buy a 1989 totally original bike to race and some dude shows up with a 1989 model with brake components of a modern bike a set of forks that your not sure of what bike they came from. Are you going to let him race. Its happening now with Pre 90 bikes. It is far to easy to bend the rules and build a super trick bike. A Pre 90/95 bike is way different to more modern bikes, but so easy to sneak far superior parts onto. There will be more whinging and bickering about bikes than there is with the current format. With Pre85 and Evo its easy, every one knows bike eligibility by just looking at the bike.
I am only new to Heaven club this year, but I bought bikes to suit classes they run. Not a more modern bike, and hope to change rules. It is still pretty easy to get a Evo or Pre85 bike.
Good post. definitely a "head" of the rest :D
I am hoping if it gets of the ground? that maybe there might be the opportunity to get together for a inter-club bike/race bonanza show meet ::) , once a year.
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That KTM looks pretty familiar Ajay. I don't think it's original owner would think it's vintage either. ;)
Yes, I think you're right there Firko! ;)
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Jeff - mining tax..............................ready to go again eh!!!! ;D Count me in ::)
Hey Rosco,
Good to see that you are back, batteries recharged and ready for combat.
Take your place behind the Mad Monk, keep your head down [and good luck]. :D
VMX42
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With Pre85 and Evo its easy, every one knows bike eligibility by just looking at the bike.
This is because we have experience with the older stuff. It won't take long to learn the differences in the newer era stuff. For example, after some research, I can now identify the differences between a 99 and 00 RM125 (would take about three seconds), despite the '00 model being a very minor revision.
Don't forget that in the early days of VMX, people were riding illegal bikes and getting away with it, because we didn't know how to identify the later model parts, or we didn't understand the differences.
I am only new to Heaven club this year, but I bought bikes to suit classes they run. Not a more modern bike, and hope to change rules. It is still pretty easy to get a Evo or Pre85 bike.
FWIW, I've got pre-70, pre-75, pre-78, and Evo race bikes. Truth be known, I prefer the racing in the pre-78 and older eras - but I am passionate about pre-90 because that's my era.
If/when Pre-90 gets up, I'll still take my older bikes out and race as hard as I can - but I'll also take my pre-90s and wobble around the back of the field with a big smile on my face, pretending that its 1989 and I'm 15 again.
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At the risk of jumping into Pirana infested waters, I'll make one last comment on this subject. This morning a relevant issue came to mind while going through some early VMX photos while researching a project and noticing the variety of bikes on the grids.
One of the more attractive facets of the first wave of VMX during the nineties was the large number of manufacturers and their different models that competed. To see long extinct brands such as Maico, Bultaco, CZ, OSSA, Montesa, BSA and many more in action was one of the defining attractions of VMX. Unfortunately as our sport has moved on and embraced both EVO and more importantly Pre '85, the gene pool of eligible bikes diminished to the point that with the exception of Husky and Maico, the sport has become a four horse race between the Japanese biggies. With Pre 90 and Pre 95 coming into the mix, the variety of available race bikes will diminish even more.
The seventies were arguably the most interesting decade in our sports history because of the manufacturers delving into unknown waters in a quest to try and discover the technological edge over their opposition. The end result of the experimentation during that period was the hugely differing engineering concepts presented by each and every manufacturer. In 1974 alone there were at least fourteen different manufacturers in the 250 class alone, most of them very different in engineering principle and visual impact from each other. By 1990 however, the engineering advances had been pretty much leveled out and the big four were producing bikes that in all honesty weren't all that different in appearance and design to each other when compared to the diversity that existed in 1974. Choosing between green, red, yellow or white was the main dilemna, not trying to choose a different engine or suspension configuration. The brand of your riding gear often became a bigger issue.
With each new cuttoff that's introduced, the variety and colour that made the pre '75 era (and to a lesser degree Evo) so attractive to both spectators and racers diminishes more and more. It's worth noting that the amazing success that the new vintage movement achieved right from the get go in 1988 was that it offered an alternative to the 'modern' cookie cutter bikes that constituted the motocross market. It's ironic that it's these very bikes are now being promoted as the 'saviour' of VMX.
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Let me go on the record again and say that I am not suggesting pre 90 or 95 is the 'saviour' of vintage MX. I agree completely with what you say Firko. And I was never in any way suggesting that Vintage MX as we know it now, especially the Pre 75 stuff, is not about celebrating one of the truly colourful periods in the history of motocross.
But we would be silly to think that the 30-50 year olds of the next decade will necessarily agree with us.
There will always be a desire by old guys to relive their youth. I didn't understand my 40 year old mates interest in crappy old Brit singles back in 1980. I thought he was just a slightly loopy old codger. Nathan is only in his 30s hence his interest in racing what to us look like more of the same. But whatever we think, to him doing so is about recreating the sights and sounds and feelings of HIS youth.
That said, I guess the point being made by everyone is that HIS youth, and that of say a guy who turns 40 in 2017, is NOT Vintage MX. So, let's just leave Vintage as it is and forget the future.
Roll on Retro MX, hmmm?
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I wasn't having a go at you, Nathan or anyone in particular Graeme...I was just raising a point that seems to have been overlooked in the heat of discussion.I also thought that the irony that the very bikes that VMX was created to offer an alternative to are now being touted as being needed to keep VMX afloat was funny.
It's inevitable that Pre 90/95/00 racing ad infinitum will occur into the future. I've never said that it was a bad idea nor that it shoudn't happen. I just maintain that we should fix what we've got first before creating yet another undersubscribed class.
However,Retro MX run under a different parent MA classification encompassing everything post pre 85 is in my mind a good idea. By leaving the 'proper vintage' VMX to cover pre 60-Evo and all in between to it's own devices I reckon the two would survive quite well as separate divisions. Of course for the post 85 Retro thing to work, the talkers would have to become doers or it all amounts to a hill of cow shit. It's the same with proper VMX, the problems that are plaguing the division need to be addressed or it too will eventually fade off into the sunset. The future success of both RMX and VMX is fully dependent on people going the hard yards to make sure their respective passions are promoted and managed properly and vigorously. I've recently been approached to take a more proactive role in getting the pre 75 and older classes back on the track and as soon as a couple of people depart positions of power I'll be getting much more involved. (Not the commission so I'm not planning on stealing your job Dave ;D).
For pre 90/95 to work someone with vision who's prepared to go the hard yards for more than three weeks needs to put his hand up and take control. I suspect there's a lot more cyber wonder boys than actual doers so it'll be interesting to see who's prepared to get involved enough to make it happen.
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RMX as a separate division may well be the answer, I reckon. So, just gotta get someone to do it eh?
By the way, are there problems plaguing Pre 75 anywhere other than NSW? WA is good, SA looks OK from the little I've seen, Vic is well covered and Qld looks good with BMCC. So, that leaves NSW? The big difference I see is that the other states run their Pre 75 on much more sympathetic tracks.
Personally, I'd like to see a Pre 78 only club in NSW that runs 'scrambles' on natural terrain, plus a few dirt track meets as well.
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With Pre 90 and Pre 95 coming into the mix, the variety of available race bikes will diminish even more.
I'd actually say that pre-85 is the low point, in that regard.
The few pre-85 Maicos & KTMs aren't all that great, while there's simply very examples of the very few models of pre-85 (and non-Evo) Huskies around (and they're really nothing to get excited over, as serious race bikes).
In the second half of the 80s, the KTMs and Huskies got more competitive against the Jap bikes.
As you enter the 1990s, more brands start coming on line (Husaberg, GasGas, TM & ATK were all imported pre-1995, albeit in limited numbers), and the two bigger Euros started getting more serious about MX.
Into the second half of the 1990s, it gets better again with three of the four previously mentioned brands becoming relatively mainstream, and stuff like VOR/Vertamati, Maico and Cannondale also existing (albeit on the very fringes).
We're certainly spoiled for choice of new bikes ATM - add BMW, Beta, Aprillia, Sherco and the emergence of some reasonable Chinese brands. Will make pre-2010 racing interesting in 2025!
NB: This is not intended to be a part of the debate, just some observations.
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Grassy knoll, grassy knoll.
Pre 90 for CD8 and beyond?
ER
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Im not 100% sure if the term 'retro' will catch on especially when it was brought up the other week that many guys call old non MX dirt bikes such as KDX/IT/PE 'VMX' bikes. The term, VMX or Vintage is pretty well imbedded in peoples minds for any 1980's and older bikes and a lot of people call 85-89 bikes vintage or VMX bikes and im not sure you can convince people to start calling them 'RMX bikes'. You could probably get that term to be used for pre 95 because that hasnt even started yet but i dont know if it will catch on for pre 90 now that in some states its already a class been run under the 'VMX' banner and there has been the odd pre 90 bike in 'VMX' mag and at 'VMX' type events such as CD and HBBB, when many already consider them VMX bikes but just of a later era to the older VMX classes. i think if we wanted the term RMX to be used for pre 90 that it may be a little too late for that now and should have been decided on before pre 90 started? Anyway just my thoughts.
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Grassy knoll, grassy knoll.
Pre 90 for CD8 and beyond?
ER
Q: What has any of this got to do with Classic Dirt?
A: Absolutely none!!!! So kindly leave it that way. :)
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scared of being beaten by more moderns than theirs
Pot calling the kettle black
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I thought pre 90 is being run in VIC or NSW already? I think this has been brought up before but theres no way that the average guy on a pre 90 bike would be competitive in moderns. Similarities are discs, water cooling, USD forks and linkage suspension but they are far off from being a 'modern' or competitive in moderns.
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Grassy knoll, grassy knoll.
Pre 90 for CD8 and beyond?
ER
Oh crap,Wheres the Zeebrugee film when we need it???
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It lives in peoples heads that have an old donger
I've got an old donger. It needs a bit of maintenance but it's brought me a lot of pleasure over the years. ;D
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I think this has been brought up before but theres no way that the average guy on a pre 90 bike would be competitive in moderns. Similarities are discs, water cooling, USD forks and linkage suspension but they are far off from being a 'modern' or competitive in moderns.
I really believe that this is just a mind set. Go and watch some footage of some mid-nineties bikes being ridden by decent riders through some whoops, off big jumps or around a knarly motocross track. They are quick.
An average guy on a mid nineties bike (set up properly for that rider) will run with a field of other average riders on moderns if he doesn't carry the mind set of "oh this lorry's twenty years old, I don't stand a chance..." ;)
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ :P
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I've got an old donger. It needs a bit of maintenance but it's brought me a lot of pleasure over the years. ;D
[/quote]
Not to worry Firko. Like most things polishing vigorously should return it to its former glory ;D
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really believe that this is just a mind set. Go and watch some footage of some mid-nineties bikes being ridden by decent riders through some whoops, off big jumps or around a knarly motocross track. They are quick.
An average guy on a mid nineties bike (set up properly for that rider) will run with a field of other average riders on moderns if he doesn't carry the mind set of "oh this lorry's twenty years old, I don't stand a chance..."
I was more referring to 85-89 models, not mid 90's bikes, but i do agree a bit with what you said. I still feel that 85-89 models are very outdated against the current range of bikes, especially in suspension department and ergonomics. Out of the box the modern bikes are fairly good these days bit to make a pre 90 bike really competitive against a modern bike i reckon you would have to do a lot of mods to it.
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Its like deja vu all over again... RMX sucks as a name, it was a marginal trail / enduro bike and makes an even worse acro for, for, for, um what have we been talking about?
Lets call it Nathan mx.
To add to the grassy knoll theory of the post 84 bikes taking large colour portions of the CD7 story, let me interject this (if it’s already been brought up please pardon me as I can’t bear to go through the pages to check);
Is it the thin end of the wedge as far as pre 90 making its debut at CD8? Is it worse that the photos were printed in a “V”-mx magazine or that they were allowed to break a sacred rule and participate in the first place (no participation, no possible photos)?
Is it a question of “don’t ask, don’t tell” for this model creep?
Hmmmmmmmmm... intrigued minds want to know.
As for the rest of it... if you want free porn and prawns on Thursdays, throw a coup in your local club and see if anyone shows up. The rest is verbal masturbation.
Wakey wakey, hands off snakey.
Cuddles,
ER
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I really believe that this is just a mind set. Go and watch some footage of some mid-nineties bikes being ridden by decent riders through some whoops, off big jumps or around a knarly motocross track. They are quick.
I don't understand your point.
That good riders can ride bikes fast?
Seen footage of Robert, deCoster etc hammering across rough-as-guts tracks with 4" of travel? They are quick.
Ditto the good guys of any era, including 1977, 1981 and 1984.
Apart from anything else, nobody who wants pre-90 is asking for SX tracks - a good grasstrack suits old bodies just fine, thanks very much.
While there have been a few 'turning point' improvements in MX bikes over the years (most significantly long travel suspension), the reality is that MX bikes are improved in small steps, every year or two.
There's been 16 years of small steps since the last pre-95 bike was built, and another 12 years of small steps since the last good Evo bike was built.
As I've said before, go and ask Jay Marmont how much you'd need to pay him to ride an 89 or a 94 YZ250 to defend his National title. Tell him that you'll build it to the absolute limit of the rules and you'll make it as competitive as possible, and see how much he drops his asking price by... Tell him that they work great on rough tracks and on big jumps, and see how loudly he laughs at you.
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a good grasstrack suits old bodies just fine, thanks very much.
I thought as much...... ::)
I hardly think anyone in their thirties has got an old body Nathan. Maybe just no ticker....::) ::) ::)
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As I've said before, go and ask Jay Marmont how much you'd need to pay him to ride an 89 or a 94 YZ250 to defend his National title. Tell him that you'll build it to the absolute limit of the rules and you'll make it as competitive as possible, and see how much he drops his asking price by... Tell him that they work great on rough tracks and on big jumps, and see how loudly he laughs at you.
I'm not talking about Aussie champs going out and defending their titles on twenty five year old bikes.......
I'm talking about guys that are so wound up about not being able to ride their 500 buck specials that they'll cry foul of the rest of the world..... :D
Sometimes I wonder if you really know a lot about VMX or this is just where you come when your rally mates are sick of you on their forum..... :-X
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Thats funny... Rudy laugh.
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Rudy,
Take back that derogatory reference to the mighty Suzuki enduro bike (RMX)!
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Apart from anything else, nobody who wants pre-90 is asking for SX tracks - a good grasstrack suits old bodies just fine, thanks very much.
Riding Pre 90 MX bikes on grass tracks or paddock tracks would be completely lame and sad to see...that is not what those bikes are about ::)
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Same goes for Evo and pre-85 bikes.
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I'm not talking about Aussie champs going out and defending their titles on twenty five year old bikes.......
Well, you were trying to tell us that the old bikes work as well as the new ones... Imagine how happy CDR will be when you tell them that they've been wasting money on new bikes! Hell, I know plenty of club racers who will worship you as a god, when you tell them that a $1500 1995 model bike will do the job just as well as their $11,000 2010 bikes do.
Do you really, honestly think that the bike companies have paid all of those engineers to do nothing, for twenty-two years?
I'm talking about guys that are so wound up about not being able to ride their 500 buck specials that they'll cry foul of the rest of the world..... :D
What are you on about?
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Nathan
You certainly have opened a can of worms, having been a member of Heaven for a number of years and knowing a number of the people that have responsed to your requests for pre90/95, you could do what I plan, as of next year, this will get you a ride on your pre 90 bike and still ride/race with the same club.
As Heaven has meetings that go over 2 days, with the first day generally being practice. Which is a great idea, but with the extra day's riding the wear and tear was starting to show on my bikes. Next year I will take my 1987 CR125 and use it as a practice bike, then on race day, ride my pre 85 bikes. Problem solved.
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I'd like to apologise for reopening the can of worms :-[. I'm so sorry folks.
Congratulations Nathan, you've taken over from my ex sister in law Cynthia's first husband Charlie as the stubbornest, most single minded person I've ever met. :o I think it's now your god given duty to become the driving force for RMX. If you lobby ADB they might even give you a column and you can start a whole new ball rolling to convert a new generation of punters for your cause over at Modern Motocross Central. They'll lap it up..you watch. ;)
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Apart from anything else, nobody who wants pre-90 is asking for SX tracks - a good grasstrack suits old bodies just fine, thanks very much.
Riding Pre 90 MX bikes on grass tracks or paddock tracks would be completely lame and sad to see...that is not what those bikes are about ::)
That may well be but this old fart enjoys riding moderns around his grassy paddock track, and he's not alone.
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And I will second that.
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Nathan, your responses are becoming less and less reasoned or rational. I have great respect for you as a guy who is a strong club member that competes for the sheer joy of it. The last few responses you have posted show that this discussion is getting to you and do not do you justice. The point that Pre90 and Pre 95 etc are inevitable is, I think, recognised by most people. The issue really is can Pre75 eras (True Vintage in most people’s eyes I think) all the way through to, say, Pre95 coexist at the same meeting?
I do not believe that it is possible. Even at the most recent Heaven meeting there was discussion about including a section of track or excluding it. The vote was to leave that section of the track out (as originally decided by the Committee). The only riders, if my memory is correct, who wanted the extra section included where Pre85 and a couple of Evo riders. These riders accepted the decision with good grace and we got on with the meeting
To try and accommodate Pre70 all the way through to Pre90 or Pre95 on the same track at the same meeting would be very difficult (impossible to my mind) and would leave many riders disappointed. I am not saying this would be an absolute but as an ongoing meeting after meeting arrangement I hope you will agree would be very challenging. In this respect VMX / RMX is vastly different to Vintage / Classic Road Racing or even Dirt Track.
The proposition of altering the track between different eras seems a possible solution but is fraught with danger as riders racing multiple eras could make an error causing serious injury. I have been at a meeting (years ago) that exactly that scenario occurred and resulted in Ambulance journeys for some riders.
The most manageable situation would be to have two clubs or two sub-branches of Heaven. The second option, I believe, has many advantages and would allow one or two ‘super’ meetings each year or other special events. It would hopefully make running meetings easier and increase everyone’s enjoyment and fulfilment from VCPCRMX (Vintage, Classic, Post Classic and Retro MX). Somehow I cannot see VCPCRMX on the front of a magazine.
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Congratulations Nathan, you've taken over from my ex sister in law Cynthia's first husband Charlie as the stubbornest, most single minded person I've ever met.
Thank you. Really.
I've watched this discussion previously, repeatedly be derailed by irrelevant and/or incorrect arguments, so this time I made a deliberate decision to dig the heels in and to shoot them down as many times as it takes.
The riders/the tracks:
1. Everyone likes grass track, even young blokes on moderns. Old blokes on moderns hate SX obstacles (witness the near death of the once-booming Over35s & O45s classes at ACTMCC when they put big jumps in).
2. If we continue to sit on our hands, we lose our best opportunity to get the bulk of the interested punters involved.
3. The people who want pre-90 are not 18 year old wankers - we're 35+ year old wankers, who invariably ride other eras of VMX already. Nobody wants to see other classes killed off.
The bikes:
4. Yes, they're newer and better than pre-85s.
5. But don't kid yourself that they're vaguely competitive with moderns (given equal riders and not deliberately skewed conditions).
6. They don't look like moderns, beyond the most superficial level.
7. Eligibility Scrutineers will have a new era of bikes to learn about, but they will learn.
The sport:
8. You don't have to ride a pre-90 just because the class is offered.
9. Race programmes will be more difficult, but not impossible.
10. Anybody who walks away from VMX because they don't like the inclusion of an era they're not interested in, is just looking for an excuse.
11. It will attract new members - probably not dozens, but some.
12. If people want to see the earlier eras grow, then they can help make it happen - simply off-loading that responsibility to the pre-90 advocates is both unrealistic and doomed to failure.
13. Everyone agrees that newer eras are inevitable.
14. Yes, there is active movement toward getting pre-90 up and running in NSW. Its not just forum talk.
Can I be any clearer?
More than happy to discuss each point in detail if anyone is unconvinced. I think I've shown that I've got plenty of energy left for this topic...
Are there any objections that I haven't mentioned, then let's hear 'em.
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Well done Nathan couldn,t agree more you.
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3. The people who want pre-90 are not 18 year old wankers - we're 35+ year old wankers, who invariably ride other eras of VMX already. Nobody wants to see other classes killed off.
.
Can I be any clearer?
More than happy to discuss each point in detail if anyone is unconvinced. I think I've shown that I've got plenty of energy left for this topic...
Are there any objections that I haven't mentioned, then let's hear 'em.
Nathan where do you propose to run these new classes ? above you state that nobody wants to see other classes killed off, so where in a already crowded race day do your new classes fit in ?
What is so wrong with starting a breakaway movment to suit your new eras ? You obviously have a passion for these eras so why not put that to good use with your new movment.
Inspite of how you can come across on here i know your alright , you have it all worked out in your head so go for it.
However i think you are deluded though in wanting to run 1990 onward bikes on grass tracks ??? the tracks in those later eras evolved with the bikes , big tabletops doubles and rythum sections are what those bikes were designed to race on ;D not golf courses, and that is what your punters will want.
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Nathan first thing. You need to walk away from this....right now. You're letting it eat you up. Sitting at a computer at 1.13am isn't healthy. (Unless you were up tending to little Emily, which if that is the case, why aren't you doing it?)
Second thing...Once again, you've articulated your thoughts on pre 90 very well but once again you've failed to see anything of merit in opposition argument, absorbed to the eyeballs that you're right and that everyone else's opinion is "irrelevant,and/or incorrect". I could break down each point you've made one by one and give you a relevant counter opinion but I'm got more important things to do this morning than argue with somebody who has no idea on the principles of debate. You've once again listed your reasons without responding in any way to opposition argument with anything but your opinion. Your points are just as irrelevant and/or incorrect as everyone elses. It's all opinion, not fact.
I'll repeat my challenge to you. Twenty three years ago I turned a 10 schooner pub conversation into a sport that's become a very successful part of mainstream Aussie motorcycling. I had no experience in such matters but I believed in the vintage thing so much, I lobbied the right people and before long the stone was rolling.
If you're so passionate about the pre 90/95 racing, Why not follow your convictions as I did 23 years ago and start a new division of the sport. If you need a hand with the logistics, I'm more than happy to help guide you through the process. Just ask. It's either time to put up or remain a cyber guru.
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Sorry Bill I have to disagree as people age they have morgages and commitments to meet there will always be a group of people who will want smoother tracks and I,m not talking golf courses, as you age it gets harder to get up on Monday to go to work. I see this in my friends that are 10 to 15 years younger than me and I go riding with.They have all had rides on my EVO bikes and think they are ok but there next comment is I'd like 90 cr250/500 or TC 450/610 These guys are out there and they will enter the sport at some stage. At the moment we can write the rules if we are smart, or we can stick our heads in the sand and hope it goes away.
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Im not 100% sure if the term 'retro' will catch on especially when it was brought up the other week that many guys call old non MX dirt bikes such as KDX/IT/PE 'VMX' bikes. The term, VMX or Vintage is pretty well imbedded in peoples minds for any 1980's and older bikes and a lot of people call 85-89 bikes vintage or VMX bikes and im not sure you can convince people to start calling them 'RMX bikes'. You could probably get that term to be used for pre 95 because that hasnt even started yet but i dont know if it will catch on for pre 90 now that in some states its already a class been run under the 'VMX' banner and there has been the odd pre 90 bike in 'VMX' mag and at 'VMX' type events such as CD and HBBB, when many already consider them VMX bikes but just of a later era to the older VMX classes. i think if we wanted the term RMX to be used for pre 90 that it may be a little too late for that now and should have been decided on before pre 90 started? Anyway just my thoughts.
There is no pre 90 in the rulebook . It lives in peoples heads that have an old donger , short arms with deep pockets and are scared of being beaten by more moderns than theirs .
I believe that most pre 90s guys have the same passion you have wasp, your train of thought is what will kill your clubs / divisons in the long run. Please reply with something more constructive...If you can ;)
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Nathan, Nathan, Nathan...... You're chuckin' the biggest hissy-fit that I've seen and it's grouse to watch. :D
The points I'm trying to push are:
a. A competitive rider on a competitive post '85 or Evo bike (not a clunker) will run a decent, strong race against his peers on later model machinery. I'm not saying he's going to win any Aussie titles but he'll hold his own.
b. It would be embarrassing to watch these bikes competing on anything other than real motocross tracks or very technical natural terrain ones. Suspension had come a long way by 1985 and all but the poorest examples of these bikes should be able to handle these tracks.
I get the feeling that you're really wound that there isn't a class out there that you're comfortable with. Maybe the 'Over 36's, under 39's, ride around the McDonalds car park on 12 inches of suspension, post-natal depression' World titles will come along one day but I've seen no sign of it lately.....
So I reckon' that leaves you with two options....
a. If you really must compete in motocross of any form, sell all but one of the fourty clunkers you own be it a Pre 75, Evo, Pre 85/90 bike. Spend your new wealth on setting that one bike up so as it handles as well and goes as best it possibly can.
Buy some training DVD's, books or get some training. You'll be amazed at how much better you'll ride, how much faster you'll go and you might even start to enjoy those nasty old motocross tracks with their 'bumpy bits' and their 'rutty bits'.
Or b.
Enjoy your collection of bikes. Sit amongst them and drink in the beauty of their quirky traits and shapes.
But for the life of us....
Stop the eternal whining that there just isn't a class of racing that you like........ ::)
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Nathan
You certainly have opened a can of worms, having been a member of Heaven for a number of years and knowing a number of the people that have responsed to your requests for pre90/95, you could do what I plan, as of next year, this will get you a ride on your pre 90 bike and still ride/race with the same club.
As Heaven has meetings that go over 2 days, with the first day generally being practice. Which is a great idea, but with the extra day's riding the wear and tear was starting to show on my bikes. Next year I will take my 1987 CR125 and use it as a practice bike, then on race day, ride my pre 85 bikes. Problem solved.
Wow! Logic...Its A wonderful thing...
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Why are you PRO pre 90 on supporters so scared to go it alone ??? if as you keep telling us there is such passion and legions of 30+ riders out there chomping at the bit to get these classes off the ground then start your own club .
I still believe its the minority of your legions who want to ride on grass tracks , most would cheerfully ride on any track as long as somone else makes it happen for them ;)
The old morgage /commitment deal doesn't hold water (47yrs , 4 kids, missus, ex missus, morgage etc etc) but i still go ride vintage and modern tracks on pre 75 bikes and i love it :)
As somone who is totaly against pre 90 onward being aligned with VMX (not anti any era just dont try and sneek under the VMX heading )i take consulation that it will only ever be banded about on forums because theres movers and then theres typist ;)
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Could somebody living close to Nathan please look up the Salvation Army's phone number and pass it on or better still get them to go around to his house and help him before he does something stupid....that's if it's not too late already. The boy needs some loving......maybe it was his childhood....he definately needs some sleep...you gotta watch over these young fellas.....we have to get his demons out....say goodbye to evil Nathan....could he be related to evil Rudy?
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quote:
What is so wrong with starting a breakaway movment to suit your new eras ?
It takes 110% commitement to start a new era club..
atttending an event for promotional work for the newly created club leaves you sitting/standing watching other eras going around a track. :(
Time & Calender dates to be sorted for new members and not clash with other era ride dates..
Not being able to ride with your old mates :'(
the list is endless.
Why Nathan wont you start a new era club ??
cheers Alison
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will people stop using the phrase" a can of worms" I'm a little bit touchy about that!
now back to the yawn fest,
I have an idea, start a new club with your passion and it will add to the sport, i'm dead sure thats what everybody is saying!!!!!!!!
Cheers Worms
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Wow, is this still going on? :o
Disclaimer: I am not a member of Heaven, mainly because I am no longer allowed (medically) to ride an MX bike. I was planning to join that club when I was still riding and getting involved in VMX. As someone who is interested in the sport and gets exposed to all forms of it, including international racing, I feel I have a different perspective that may be worth at least airing.
First point: The other states (other than NSW) have now proved that the separation of the Vintage bikes from EVO and later has worked - it has maintained the interest in the Vintage scene (as it should be) and allowed EVO, pre 85 AND pre 90 to develop. WIN/WIN.
My opinion therefore is that Heaven needs to focus back on the Vintage classes (i.e. pre 78 in my definition) and not try to dilute itself into a "keep everyone happy" at its race days.
The solution is simple. Have separate race days for Vintage and for Classics. This would allow both sectors of the sport to be happy campers. The Vintage races could be run on 100% Vintage friendly tracks and I'm guessing that many would be much more interested in racing a Vintage bike if that were the case. The Classic races could be run on regualr MX tracks, which suit the longer travel suspension.
So instead of having 8 race days in a year trying to please everyone and failing to do so, why not have 4 Vintage days and 4 Classic days?
Just a thought... ;)
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Lets regurgitate this post
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ee61/reporterbarfscat-1.gif)
Who going to shake it up , get up and have a go to get this pre-90 show on the road.
No more talking about it, the good ,the bad and the ugly , not argue the point about whats vintage and whats not, actually get it together and have a meeting , not a talk fest meeting , "a ride meeting".
You just need to go to a club that has fair and open constitution , put up your idea , do a little bit of work to get the meeting going.
Why are people so hooked on "Heaven" doing it , the pre-90 thing. No good bagging them if they dont what to do it.
They are hard pressed getting though the programmes they have , and more to the point why should the people that volenteer their time to run the club have to put in even more time.
Have a little business plan and couple of sponsors , because based on the ideas , i have seen to date " NONE " i wouldnt back it.
You and your organising comittee mates probably wont get to ride because you will be busy getting it together to make it a real success , so the club you choose will make a profit for their efforts , but you wont mind becuase your so keen to get it going that doesnt matter.
I have little interest in riding that era of moto X bikes but i would like to watch them go round.
Basically , if you want it , actually do something about it ,because all this aimless chatter does your cause no good
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when i was pres of QVMX we ran a meeting at FORT LYTTON MX CLUB due to the drought.table tops,stutters doubles etc,very unhealthy for the older bikes -couple of them broke frames,exhausts .the funniest thing of the day was a 43 yr old -this was around 6-7 yrs ago,took his 81 yz 250 out with the moderns( this was a combined meeting) got a 3rd place up against the open moderns -450,525cc bikes ,funny thing was watching all the modern heros with all the bling getting beaten by an old man on an old bike on there home track-the old bloke was /is inclined to indulge in all things bad for you so saying a pre 95 wont be competitive against moderns dosnt hold water wouldnt do it at national level but club level fine
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Hey Shoey
you said that 15 pages ago
stop repeating yourself
Cheers Worms
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Dont get me started Trev.
Like alot of us , this shit makes me sick
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ee61/familyguyexorcistavatar-1.gif)
Meaning the inactive nature of the thing , this discussion and the shove for pre-90 is more than two years old .
And still '' zippo ''
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Shoey,
You get a bad prawn at Marouba this morning ;D ;D ;D
Pre 90 gunners
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Yeh Pete
Got sick last nite.
Went out to see a cover band , that I thought was a Gun's and Roses cover
But it turned out to be the Gunna's and No doers
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ee61/meercatband.gif)
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Yeh Pete
Got sick last nite.
Went out to see a cover band , that I thought was a Gun's and Roses cover
But it turned out to be the Gunna's and No doers
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ee61/meercatband.gif)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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For the people saying that pre 90 and pre 95 are competitive against moderns, Ok well maybe yes thay can be slightly competitive, but its just the same as saying a 1964 BSA is competive against a 74 CR or TM or something, but we dont expect that just because a pre 65 is capable against a pre 75 bike that they should be just lumped in with pre 75's. Pre 65 bikes belong in 'their era/class' just as much as pre 90/95 belong in their era racing against bikes their same age and NOT against modern 2000+ bikes. The whole point is about show casing different eras isnt it?
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(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1052255/horse.gif)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1052255/Logoff.jpg)
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flogging a dead cow.................. ::)or is it flogging a dead horse?
i reckon after 20 more pages we will come up with the same anwser. maybe!
Cheers Worms
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holy heck :o :o :o I though you were kicking me off big time when I read that :-X :'( :D
I saw redder than a 490 Maico :P
;D One of my favourite images.... :P
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(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ee61/Mymaico2P1010149.jpg)
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My opinion therefore is that Heaven needs to focus back on the Vintage classes (i.e. pre 78 in my definition) and not try to dilute itself into a "keep everyone happy" at its race days.
HEAVEN's original focus was the Evo+ classes - they've 'diluted' to embrace the earlier eras when Penrith lost momentum.
Otherwise, I agree totally with your sentiment. My only concern is whether the seperate eras could sustain themselves, particularly as so many of the old guard have stormed off in a huff and seem very reluctant to return to active racing.
Shoey, try this:
Proposal for HEAVEN to incorporate pre-90 racing.
Capital outlay: $0.
On going costs: $0.
Additional labour outlay: <1%*.
Expected additional membership: 10.
Income from additional memberships: $500.
Expected additional entries/round: 5 additional riders in the first year, increasing in subsequent years.
Of course, I could pad it out to make it look like a serious business proposal, but the basic gist is obvious.
*Based on one 'all-in' class for pre-90s. Given the time and effort required to run the club: manage memberships, run the website, conduct race meetings (MA paperwork, track hire, track maintanence, having officials, producing race programmes, and actually running the meeting), then one additional race/round represents a tiny increase in the total workload.
Bill, Alison, No single era club would survive in NSW. Its completely unrealistic to ask a new era of racing to survive alone, when none of the established eras can.
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There ya go Nathan
Now your starting to make some sense.
Now , if you want it at Heaven, start to lobby your fellow members , you may not get it over the line this year , but may-be next year , only due to the late stage of the season.
Or trial it with another club , say mid year next , (1 event) to allow enough time to get it organised.
I think if time and circumstances allowed it , you have the capacity to be the one to do it
"old guard have stormed off in a huff and seem very reluctant to return to active racing". As for this , i think this comment is a general figment of over active imaginations.
People like to do other things and there is natural attrition of the older body set, personally given the opportunity , i would like to race again oneday , so watch out you could get roosted.
PS:Nat . can't give you a gold star for that , best i can do is
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ee61/rockoutcatavatar-1.gif)
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In the past someone in Victoria had the idea of running vinduros down there, so we thought it would be a great idea to run something similar here in NSW.
So we got together and put a proposal together to put to the guys at Manly Motorcycle Club to see if it was viable to run a Vinduro. They were wrapped with the idea.
So with the wheels in motion the three of us started to formulate a layout and place to run a Vinduro. It took at least 10 weekends of OUR TIME to set out the loop, logistics and sponsors but in the end it all worked out and we were off and running.
Pre 90 it’s not that hard to do, if you have to balls to DO it.
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Hi Nathan and others,
As a friendly suggestion from a NZ based Pre 90 fan.Until you are successful with your efforts with Heaven,I reckon you NSW/ACT guys with Pre 90 bikes should front at a Heaven 2 day event and ride your Pre 90 bikes during Saturday practice, as a sign of solidarity/help entice some new punters.
Just a friendly suggestion.
Good luck with your efforts.
Peace out ;D
PS Come on TMBill, admit you want to buy a 1988 RM250,come out of the closet!!
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Nathan where do you propose to run these new classes ? above you state that nobody wants to see other classes killed off, so where in a already crowded race day do your new classes fit in ?
What is so wrong with starting a breakaway movment to suit your new eras ? You obviously have a passion for these eras so why not put that to good use with your new movment.
Bill as you are not from NSW I'll excuse your ignorance regarding the way VMX currently operates here.
A new class can easily be inserted into a HEAVEN race program by simply replacing one of the many Junior races that are currently being used as filler events while us old farts get our breath back. By the way, horror of horrors, these juniors for the most part compete on modern machinery.
By starting a break away movement you would in all probability be sounding the death knell for either HEAVEN or the new movement. HEAVEN without EVO and Pre 85 would be reduced to similar to what the Penrith Pre '75 club has become. And if you think another movement would not dilute the current HEAVEN Evo onwards participation numbers you're kidding yourself.
Cheers
Shaun
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My apologies i didn't realise Nathans suggestions or Graemes original post ONLY suggested later classes for the heaven club.
I believed that this thread pertianed to all of Australia ??? my mistake .
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My apologies i didn't realise Nathans suggestions or Graemes original post ONLY suggested later classes for the heaven club.
I believed that this thread pertianed to all of Australia ??? my mistake .
Fair point, but NSW is where the controvesy is. Other states are either doing pre-90 already, or they're still a few years away/not interested.
But I guess the point remains, that just because its in the rule book, doesn't mean that any club has to run events for these bikes.
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No one is suggesting that EVO and Pre85 would or should move to some other club / movement. Presently the Heaven Club Era spread is acceptable to the majority of members (I believe).
The problem is that adding Pre90 and possibly Pre95 stretches that beyond a sustainable point. Currently the tracks are just capable of accommodating all eras raced. Sometimes the track extends the Pre75 bikes to their limits and sometimes the track is a little less challenging than ideal for the Evo and particularly the Pre85. Everyone generally accepts this.
By the Pre90 era virtually all the manufacturers had well sorted linkage or single shock rear ends, forks had moved on to ‘relatively’ modern design. Water cooling, power valves etc had been very well engineered in most cases. These bikes are capable of handling far more challenging tracks and most riders of these bikes will want to be challenged.
Yes everyone likes grass tracks and smoother tracks than raced on in the actual periods the bikes where new in deference to generally older human bodies. The ‘fun’ factor of VMX or RMX or whatever also demands that. I do not think that it is possible to accommodate all eras at one meeting for MX. Road Racing and Dirt Track are completely different in that regards.
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(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/vmx42/CoolClips_wb028618.gif)
Let's go round again. It was great the first time…
Now is a time for action, enough words have died for this cause.
VMX42
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Incoming
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Totally off subject, who made that pipe? Looks awesome! Mite get one made for my pre '90... :)
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PS Come on TMBill, admit you want to buy a 1988 RM250,come out of the closet!!
One of my favorite RMs of all time Liz ;D i would have one in a heartbeat :) but liz i wouldn't bullshit myself its a VMX bike ;)
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Somebody, anybody, please do something positive or move on and enjoy what you've already got. This pre 90 saga has been going on for at least two years with bugger all happening because nobody has the goolies (sorry Adrian, I don't mean you) :D to do anything but post their theories on a forum. If HEAVEN have shown reluctance to change their charter, go to another club and float your proposal. There are a number of clubs that are going through flat periods that'd love an opportunity to increase club membership and renew activity. We did it with Penrith years ago and Shoey, Ribbo and Husky Pete did it by going ito cahoots with Manly club to get Vinduros up and running in NSW.
This forum talkfest is becoming tedious and does nothing but create angst within the vintage community. Nobody's disputing that pre 90/95 won't be a part of the future but the big question is whether it's right to lump these late model bikes in with bikes from earlier eras. If Nathan, Sugar and the other Pre 90 advocates have steadfast belief in the future of post 85 motocross being a good thing it's time they as a group stopped talking and started doing.
If I was heading the pre 90/95 proposal I'd start the ball rolling by first up calling a meeting for all interested punters via posts on forums and press releases to all of the magazines to be held at central venue to test the water and create some sort of brains trust to help rough out a sensible proposal to take to a club. Because Penrith and HEAVEN are offering their own brand of vintage racing, I'd be looking at presenting a package to a club that offers a slightly different product than what the other clubs offer. Offering them a package of say....Pre 90 and pre 95 plus and perhaps a two stroke only modern class.(this is merely an example of a proposal that wouldn't significantly cut into HEAVENS base structure). To push this new concept it's imperative to approach the media including magazines such as ADB and DA with a well thought out article describing what you're proposing, emphasising what makes it different from traditional vintage racing. Having a media heavyweight backing your new concept is an important key to selling the class to new market. Offering a bike for said media mogul to race at an event is one way of getting the desired magazine pages. I'm positive that most new racers for the class would be drawn from the modern ranks so that's where most of the promotion should be aimed. From my experience with the modern motorcycle media, they have little interest in pre 78/Evo style racing but I'm fairly confidant they could relate to the pre 95/two stroke motocross as the bikes fit into their demographic far easier than twin shock bikes. I'd also be hammering all of the Aussie motocross forums with the idea, once again emphasising the difference from traditional vintage racing which most young 'dudes' have no interest in.
Of course, all of this takes time, commitment and great personal sacrifice. It's not something that will happen overnight and will require patience and the ability to handle rejection and scorn without publicly spitting the dummy. It took me two years of lobbying and letter writing to get a foot in the door but I was convinced I was right. With 21st century internet communication including forums, websites, facebook and other social media outlets, the message is much easier to distribute so I reckon you could cut my two years of work down to six months.
I'm basing all of the above on my personal belief that these proposed later divisions don't belong under the VMX banner and that their spititual home is tied in within the modern movement*. The ever growing VMX class structure must eventually become too crowded so the pre 90 or pre 95 cutoff is probably the right place to start the separation process. Both different divisions can coexist with cross promotions possible and, in the beginning encouraged to make up the numbers.
There's a few hurdles to jump but it's all possible if you want it bad enough. All that's needed is a driven individual to oversee the whole process.
*(Purely a personal opinion, I'm prepared to be proven wrong.)
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Sounds like a great idea Firko,I shall now refrain from comment,and enjoy my evening; sipping a cheeky Kiwi Savignon, and reading my just arrived shipment of UK DBR mags; all Pre 90 Satanic verses of course!!
and no velcro gloves tonight.....
Good luck with Pre 90 in NSW men.... :-*
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Look I have stayed out of this long enough.
I have pre 90 bikes
I like pre 90 bikes
I would never call them vintage as they are not of vintage note (Gee I dont call my Evo bikes vintage!), sure now older bikes but not vintage, a pre 95 bike is (in my opinion) just a newer version of a pre 90 bike that currently does not have "vintage" status as by the MA manual.
I would be happy for pre 90 to sit as a club only class for a few years yet, little lone promote pre 95 (foot note to this the SCMCC run pre 90 as an event at club days at Conondale and have yet to break double figure entries after 3 events!)
I though Nathan was being tongue in cheek at first but as it turns out you are not?
I would agree with Firko on this the vintage seen needs a lot of help to get it going strong again (racing wise, as CD 7 was a big success) before it needs more classes to run at national level. As I have said at club level great but come on guy's it is hardly vintage is it. The point being lost on most people is that a true vintage bike needs to be ridden with some care and is an art form to watch the speed some people can ride them at! but a pre 90 bike is an easy bike to ride that anyone can master (to their on level) pretty well first ride out. I would say my pre 90 250 (CR250) is about 8/10ths of my 09 450x i ride, but my 74 CR 250 shares the same name only. thats the way I see it.
Ride them (pre 95) if you like but check out your local club first, as they would love to have the extra entries.
Having said all that, if blokes have vintage bikes that are not being used then how about supporting the sport and putting them up for sale so people have bikes to buy and run!!
Shane
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Somebody, anybody, please do something positive or move on and enjoy what you've already got. This pre 90 saga has been going on for at least two years with bugger all happening because nobody has the goolies (sorry Adrian, I don't mean you) :D to do anything but post their theories on a forum. If HEAVEN have shown reluctance to change their charter, go to another club and float your proposal. There are a number of clubs that are going through flat periods that'd love an opportunity to increase club membership and renew activity. We did it with Penrith years ago and Shoey, Ribbo and Husky Pete did it by going ito cahoots with Manly club to get Vinduros up and running in NSW.
Mark I trimmed your post somewhat however what you said makes a great deal of sense.
You may not be aware that I have submitted a request with the required member support for a special general meeting to consider amending the current HEAVEN constitution to once again allow the possibility of introducing newer class at a later date with the support of the membership This request has been tied up in technicalities within the constitution (which I wont bore you all with here) as to how and by what manner the meeting must be conducted. Suffice to say that there is no firm resolution as yet.
My enthusiasm for making this work with HEAVEN is solely down to a belief that the introduction of another "VMX" club in NSW would do neither organisation any good at all.
In HEAVEN we have a club who's original charter was to provide an opportunity for post '75 bikes and riders somewhere to compete.
A new organisation aimed at later model bikes would in my opinion also attract a number of current EVO and Pre '85 riders and as it stands at the moment I feel that if HEAVEN needed to rely more on older classes this could have disastrous consequences for the club. Of course this wouldn't be a problem if guy's with older bikes supported HEAVEN events in more numbers.
Recently there has been interest shown in aligning a pre '90 register with modern clubs and promoters and I understand that there may be some positive outcomes in this area in the near future. As you say you need someone to drive this to make it happen.
Cheers
Shaun
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Welcome back Mr Frodo
Your words of wisdom have been missed.
Ooops back to the satanic verses!!!!!
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I though Nathan was being tongue in cheek at first but as it turns out you are not?
My main reason for bringing it up was in a (futile) attempt to get people to stop and think, rather than just go with their knee-jerk reaction.
I still want people to take the time to think about pre-95 and why it is, or is not, likely to be a part of the old bike scene in the foreseeable future - without simply trying to justify their initial response which is usually along the lines of "but they're almost new!!"...
I'm not claiming that we should be introducing pre-95 in the next year or two. But the optimist within me hopes that when we get closer to the time, we can actually have a sensible discussion on the topic, without the emotion that has dogged the pre-90 debate.
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STG you have my proxy brother, send me the form to sign.
Anyhoo we have more to worry about, like paying back the overwhelming spending spree that the chinless, barren, lemon and her sidekick Mr. Hand spent last year.
I just figured it out that every man woman and child in Oz is now in debt to (insert innocuous third world country we borrowed the money from) approx $22,000 each.
Wow the interest on that $900 check they sent out sure has grown.
Don’t even get me started about her live in handbag / hairdresser...
Toodles,
ER
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...oddly enough so am I. I hope they figure out how long to put them in the clothes drier to keep them from running. I'm having a hard time.
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ah yes, another day filled with substance for the virtues of why everybody must agree! ;D
you cant have your pudding till you eat your meat, if you dont have your meat you cant have your pudding?
so, you cant have pre95 till you have pre90, if you dont have pre90, you cant have pre95.
Cheers Worms
Shoey enters stage left!!!!!
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Im running a little late this morning Trev. , been out scoping some pre-90 tracks
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Lucky enough I still have some day-glow with aqua and purple MSR gear from 92-93. Who would have thought... Nice not to worry about that pesky pre90 thingy, when we can go straight to pre 95.
Actually to lessen the psychological blow of pre 90/95, I propose Pre 2000. Lets just get it over with.
Rudy
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Lucky enough I still have some day-glow with aqua and purple MSR gear from 92-93. Who would have thought... its not fire proof
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ee61/flamethrowerflamedww4.jpg)
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ah, the eagle has landed, so the buzzards can fly away, be free you buzzards, be free.
Evil, you in fluro ????????????
Worms, to infinity and pre95
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Geez Trev....that i'll make a good song I reckon?
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This cut-n-paste humor stopped being funny about Tue..... :-[
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Thanks for the heads up Ross , but it didnt for me
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Nor me......
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Thanks for the heads up Ross , but it didnt for me
Me three, they're a welcome relief from the feelings of shame I get from not sharing the pre '95 vision. All of my knee jerking has worn me out.
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is it dead yet?
pre 95 , not your knee ;D
please fill in the gaps with whatever you like,
Cheers Worms
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you just never know
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Shoey, Suzuki 43 and Evil, you guys are killing me. Keep it going.
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... you guys are killing me. Keep it going.
Mate, riding a Honda isn't that bad is it? I mean you might be feeling down right now, but things will get better.
;D
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OK
its a new day lets try to intergrate it and get the pre-90 programme up and running again
Ready , yeah , OK lets do it , are you sure
Yeah , Im sure
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ee61/aFu_DecapitateDummy.gif)
Oh shit Im out of here
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OK
its a new day lets try to intergrate it and get the pre-90 programme up and running again
Ready , yeah , OK lets do it , are you sure
Yeah , Im sure
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ee61/aFu_DecapitateDummy.gif)
Oh shit Im out of here
Oooooooh, that's got to hurt.
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now, if they were headless chickens running around a paddock, it would give new meaning to pre95 movement.
Worms ;D
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Damn out of office cant post photos,keep up the good work shoey,here puss puss....
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Huuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...maybe time to relax with a round or two of gulf instead...
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/OLDCOMPUTER001.jpg?t=1285283907)
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Huuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...maybe time to relax with a round or two of gulf instead...
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/OLDCOMPUTER001.jpg?t=1285283907)
FOUR!!!!!
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geez Mick
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ee61/smoking_animated_avatar_100x100_17628.gif)
bet that doesnt stay up long
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geez Mick
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ee61/smoking_animated_avatar_100x100_17628.gif)
bet that doesnt stay up long
Yeah, I could get barred for life, wouldn't be the first time ::)
There is always an upside but, Imagine how much work I could get done then ;D :D
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geez Mick
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ee61/smoking_animated_avatar_100x100_17628.gif)
bet that doesnt stay up long
Well if they don't like that?
I am thinking that they might not like my opinion on diluting heaven with more non vintage....
Overload the program ???
Overload an already exhausted and sometimes under appreciated self sacrificing comity and run the risk of loosing them to burnt out for something they didn't stick their hands up for in the first place ???
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/headUpAss.jpg?t=1285290516)
I say go for it,,,,, Its a great idea,,,,,just somewhere else, that's all.
To me, Heaven means somewhere for old things,
Old People,
Old dreamers,
Old bikes ;D
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20 pages :o wellat least you got them talking about pre 90 on Graeme :-X
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Yeah... sort of...
Think it's gone a little too silly now, so time to shut her down I think. It's just clogging stuff up now.