Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?

[All Things 414]

I must admit I haven't read my way through all of this so it's probably been said already......
What's wrong with riding your post 90 bike in the Vets classes of your local clubbies and region meetings? If you and your mates just have to be riding these bikes then that'd be the place to get started before you have a set class in what is the more main-stream VMX. You'd be more than competitive with the moderns in that class if you set 'em up right (no I don't mean $$$ in suspension, just get 'em set up right) and you might get a band of guys together all on the same type of bikes. When you've generated enough interest and have some firm numbers (not "a bit of interest on The Forum"), take it to your VMX governing body.

You might even have some fun along the way.....

[Mick22]

I race pre75, pre90 and Modern, which is interesting because if I am to believe whats being said in this thread the only reason I ride a Pre 90 is because I'm too cheap /too scared to ride with the modern bikes From what I've seen in Vic the whole generalization that its a class for cheapskates that couldn't cut in in modern racing couldn't be further from the truth...the majority of the guys were quite handy!
I've ridden my Pre 90 Cr500 in Modern class on Modern tracks in the last year and anyone who thinks a CR500 is even in the same universe as a CRF450 has no idea how far bikes and tracks have progressed, yes they both have disc brakes and long travel and thats about where the similarities end.

A lot of the arguments being put up have come straight out of the flat earth society guide book. There is nothing to fear!!

Regadless of what ever new classes are dreamed up /introduced the spirtual base of pre 75 will always be the focus of VMX and that is not going to change for a long time to come. I agree with Graeme, just because there is a class doesn't mean clubs will run it or riders will ride it, it will be driven by the market. Pre 90 works in Vic and has found its place, this doesn't mean every club has to start doing it and there needs to be an Aussie title etc.

Mid to late 80's 2 strokes, especially the big bores were one of the most significant eras in the history of MX and needs to be preserved  and encouraged just as Pre 75 bikes are.

[whitey 43]

They're just old bikes with no relevance to 99.9% of current MX riders, which is why they need to be a part of the old bike scene

Nathan i think you will find there just old bikes with no relevance to the same percentage of vmx riders  

In fact there just old bikes  

They got no soul

A vmx bike has soul 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

[All Things 414]

I've ridden my Pre 90 Cr500 in Modern class on Modern tracks in the last year and anyone who thinks a CR500 is even in the same universe as a CRF450 has no idea how far bikes and tracks have progressed, yes they both have disc brakes and long travel and thats about where the similarities end.

Agreed. A CR 500 is going to find it hard to cut it on a motocross track and I doubt most people could stick with a modern 450 on one. However a post 90 250 is a different beast again.

I too think that all the energy that would have to go into getting a Pre95 class up and going would be better spent on improving what we already have.

At the end of the day it's a lot of talk on an old guys forum. I doubt many people would get off their arses to make it happen.
* I doubt any post 85 500's were really built to be ridden fast on motocross tracks. Not the tracks with corners anyhow....

[Mick22]

Yep I agree about post 90 250's, they are much the same as what followed and I think thats why pre 95 will never be a relevant class and there will never be much interest as there is nothing that really defines that era. All the 90-96 bikes were a bit blaah. Great bikes to ride but nothing stands out about them...then in 97 things got interesting again
Thats why I don't think anyone should be worried about Pre90 or if it ever happens Pre95, I think at best Pre 90 will always remain a smaller support class of the main VMX scene.

I think it might be a bit like the classic road race scene, The era of the Manx's etc will always be the focus. Other more modern classes may have a flash in the pan for a few years but the strength of the main classes will remian the same

[All Things 414]

Actually I've seen Simon Healy clean up the modern 450/250's on his KX 500 but he's a freak!

[Nathan S]

Sorry Nathan, I'm not sure what your saying or meaning, but if its about cars moving with the times then good on them, this isnt car racing so what is your point. After all your usually the one who asks for points and informative debate or discussion.

Wasn't specifically talking about car racing but, if I convert your statement to be about cars:

... I struggle to see how post-war cars with disc brakes, a synchro gearbox and seat belts are called vintage but that is now what has happened.
 What I do think needs to happen is that the most progressive/innovative time of car design needs to be preserved and if we keep moving the goal posts to accomadate the whims of, "the car is 20/25yrs old now" so therefore its a vintage and should have a class for it to race in, will only lose the magic that have Classic cars are all about, preserving an era in time. Just because time marchs on doesnt mean that the eras of Classic Cars have to march with it. Thats the whole point of Classic Cars.

Am I the only one picturing an impposibly stubbon, snooty old prick with a 1934 Wolsley? Someone who dismisses a 48/215 as being modern? Someone who refuses to re-join his car club because they accepted the membership of someone who's MGA has the wrong steering wheel on it!?!
I know you're not that guy DJ, hence why I think it's funny/disturbing that you sounded like him.

...so the vintage guys have to take them, and more than likely to the detriment of our sport as we have now?

How will it be to the detriment? The sky will not fall in, just like it didn't when pre-85 was introduced (despite the same arguments being trotted out then). Hoplessly outdated bikes, usually being ridden by old blokes - and pre-90 is clearly at that point now.

Edit: And I do appreciate the sensible input!

[mainline]

Am I the only one picturing an impposibly stubbon, snooty old prick with a 1934 Wolsley?

I'm thinking you are, as comparisons go, this discussion seems to be about a fairly different scenario

[DJRacing]

Sorry Nathan, I'm not sure what your saying or meaning, but if its about cars moving with the times then good on them, this isnt car racing so what is your point. After all your usually the one who asks for points and informative debate or discussion.

Wasn't specifically talking about car racing but, if I convert your statement to be about cars:

... I struggle to see how post-war cars with disc brakes, a synchro gearbox and seat belts are called vintage but that is now what has happened.
 What I do think needs to happen is that the most progressive/innovative time of car design needs to be preserved and if we keep moving the goal posts to accomadate the whims of, "the car is 20/25yrs old now" so therefore its a vintage and should have a class for it to race in, will only lose the magic that have Classic cars are all about, preserving an era in time. Just because time marchs on doesnt mean that the eras of Classic Cars have to march with it. Thats the whole point of Classic Cars.

Am I the only one picturing an impposibly stubbon, snooty old prick with a 1934 Wolsley? Someone who dismisses a 48/215 as being modern? Someone who refuses to re-join his car club because they accepted the membership of someone who's MGA has the wrong steering wheel on it!?!
I know you're not that guy DJ, hence why I think it's funny/disturbing that you sounded like him.

...so the vintage guys have to take them, and more than likely to the detriment of our sport as we have now?

How will it be to the detriment? The sky will not fall in, just like it didn't when pre-85 was introduced (despite the same arguments being trotted out then). Hoplessly outdated bikes, usually being ridden by old blokes - and pre-90 is clearly at that point now.

Edit: And I do appreciate the sensible input!

Ok Nathan I see your point, so lets take "your" scenero (and I will explain the detriment to the older bikes at the same time) a step further.
  The new guy that has come along wont care that the old club member has now gone will he. The new guy brings along a few mates, and they dont care that the old guy is gone, but now some of the old guys friends in the club are feeling perplexed by what has happened and start to leave. Of course the new guys dont care that much because these old guys were stupid old sticks in the mud. But these old guys had the older cars, and the knowledge to rebuild/restore and generally keep their old cars going through years of knowledge/skill/ and the can do attitude(lost forever). Now, as time marches on and the next era come along a similar thing happens, but this era just so happens to be the era when parts were bought and never knocked up in the shed and the only work they have done on their cars is reach into their pockets and pay the man.
 Their is something about the newer generation, and getting their hands dirty but the more time marches on the more this seems prevalent, so maybe these newer eras may never get used but if they do......

VMX started with a cut off date of pre75 and then it moved to pre80 and now it is at pre85 and lets look at the other end of the eras. Pre60, where is it?  Pre65 is rapidly declining and non existant in alot of clubs. Pre70 is looking every similar to pre65 and now with the Pre90 and Pre95 fans knocking on the door what will be the next class to drop? Will pre78 have to move in with evo? Pre75 may have the numbers now but in another few years how will vmx be looking?

If the cap fits I'll wear it, call me Mr 34 Wolsley if you like, but the era of Vintage Motocross as we know it will be gone and lost just like the skills and knowledge with it.

Call me what you like but I say I dont want to loose what we have now, .... Say NO to era movements havent we already lost enough.

[TM BILL]

I must admit I haven't read my way through all of this so it's probably been said already......
What's wrong with riding your post 90 bike in the Vets classes of your local clubbies and region meetings? If you and your mates just have to be riding these bikes then that'd be the place to get started before you have a set class in what is the more main-stream VMX. You'd be more than competitive with the moderns in that class if you set 'em up right (no I don't mean $$$ in suspension, just get 'em set up right) and you might get a band of guys together all on the same type of bikes. When you've generated enough interest and have some firm numbers (not "a bit of interest on The Forum"), take it to your VMX governing body.

You might even have some fun along the way.....

Well said Ross 

[Nathan S]

Ok Nathan I see your point, so lets take "your" scenero (and I will explain the detriment to the older bikes at the same time) a step further.
  The new guy that has come along wont care that the old club member has now gone will he. The new guy brings along a few mates, and they dont care that the old guy is gone, but now some of the old guys friends in the club are feeling perplexed by what has happened and start to leave. Of course the new guys dont care that much because these old guys were stupid old sticks in the mud. But these old guys had the older cars, and the knowledge to rebuild/restore and generally keep their old cars going through years of knowledge/skill/ and the can do attitude(lost forever).

Now we're getting somewhere!

I have to question why the old stick-in-the-mud feels the need to leave. All the reasons for him originally being involved in the club are still there - what are his reasons for leaving?

I've really tried to understand why people are so vehmenently against newer eras, but completely failed. In one of the other threads, someone asked why/how pre-90 would be a problem for any anti-pre-90 punter. The question was totally ignored, which leads me to conclude that there is no answer.

I've got no real interest in the really early era stuff, but I appreciate that other people do, and there's no reason for me to object to it being a part of the race programme. In fact, I recognise that they're a part of MX history and we should be preserving the bikes.
Still can't fathom why this isn't the case when you talk about newer eras.


If we take a step back, everyone involved in old dirt bikes must be at least a bit weird. Real modern bikes are cheap, easy to get bits for, and work brilliantly. To own anything more than about 10 years old is because:
a) you're really poor (too poor to race bikes at least),
b) not that interested in bikes ("Yeah, I got a Suzuki YZ285. Its a 1995 model wif the two shocks at the back - it goes real good. I ride it at me uncle's farm every Easter, aye!"), or
c) Are an old bike nutter.

I really don't understand why those of us in group (c) always feel the need to factionalise and bitch about each other.
We're all in it for the love of the old bikes - bikes that we owned/wished that we owned when they were new, bikes that we recognise as important/worthwhile bikes in the history of bikes, etc. But for some reason, anyone who doesn't totally share your exact passion for the exact same bikes* is someone who can never be trusted and is probably going to try to knife you the instant you drop your guard.... In fact, you should object to everything they say, because they are probably trying to fork you over, right now! OMG! 

What's wrong with embracing people/interests that are 99% the same as our own? Are we really so insecure that we cannot possibly contemplate anything even a little bit different?




*I realise the irony in this - DJR's and my bike collections have a lot of overlap!

[mainline]

I don't think that people in "group (c) are like that. I've said before that if I had the money, the space, and a much more understanding wife, my shed (actually it would be more like an aircraft hangar) would be full of bikes (and other bits of interesting machinery) from probably the twenties up.

I could quite happily fit in a Brough Superior, a '37 Triumph Speed Twin, a few bikes from the 50's and 60's, in fact, I don't have enough time left on this planet to think about and list all the bikes and cars I'd love to own from a multitude of era's.

I think that what people are against is losing what they have.

[mainline]

I pressed the "do" button before I'd finished typing

anyway, what I was trying to say is, the current crop are happy (reasonably) with the status quo. They'd probably be happier with more bikes/ riders admittedly. Adding later classes of bikes to Clubs/events that were initially formed to celebrate and enjoy much earlier bikes, does not seem to be a popular way of boosting numbers at clubs/events. Having younger guys (and by no way am I trying to imply that the younger generation are the antichrist, so please drop that one) join clubs on more modern bikes, will have to lead to track changes and less ride time for other classes, it just stands to reason.

Instead of all this, how about putting the grey matter to work trying to figure out how to get more people interested in the earlier stuff? I've been crapping on ad-nauseum at work about vintage bikes to the point where two of the guys I know have joined up. Admittedly they were bike nuts to start with, but they were on modern trailbikes. How many of you go trailriding with, or know guys in their 30's, 40's, 50's, that you could pester into coming along to a vintage race? If you're serious enough about this stuff, bring them to a practice day and lend them one of your bikes for the day?

[DJRacing]

Ok Nathan I see your point, so lets take "your" scenero (and I will explain the detriment to the older bikes at the same time) a step further.
  The new guy that has come along wont care that the old club member has now gone will he. The new guy brings along a few mates, and they dont care that the old guy is gone, but now some of the old guys friends in the club are feeling perplexed by what has happened and start to leave. Of course the new guys dont care that much because these old guys were stupid old sticks in the mud. But these old guys had the older cars, and the knowledge to rebuild/restore and generally keep their old cars going through years of knowledge/skill/ and the can do attitude(lost forever).

Now we're getting somewhere!

I have to question why the old stick-in-the-mud feels the need to leave. All the reasons for him originally being involved in the club are still there - what are his reasons for leaving?
I didnt say he left, you did in your scenero Someone who refuses to re-join his car club

I've really tried to understand why people are so vehmenently against newer eras, but completely failed. In one of the other threads, someone asked why/how pre-90 would be a problem for any anti-pre-90 punter. The question was totally ignored, which leads me to conclude that there is no answer.
Did I not give you 'one' of the answers?

Nathan, we have different eras now so why the big push to increase the year cut offs?
Instead of asking why its not wanted, because you have clearly missed people's explanations of why. When you should be asking yourself why you have to have it.
And sorry Graeme for the thread hi-jack, I know your not saying bring more eras in and yet once again any thread like this turns into a pre90 debate.

[Canam370]

Interestingly enough there is a post on Marks Swapmeet in the U.S dealing with this same issue so its not just our little crew with the conniptions.