Author Topic: Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?  (Read 53727 times)

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suzuki43

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Re: Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?
« Reply #60 on: September 17, 2010, 05:03:22 pm »

Offline worms

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Re: Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?
« Reply #61 on: September 17, 2010, 06:11:00 pm »
sorry Nathan, I just happened to be at the helm and the memmbers voted to move forward with Pre 85, I didnt lobby anybody except support the clubs wishes! Perception is a funny thing, so why push your bandwagon here, submit it to your club for disscussion at your AGM, why not start there?

you would gain far greater respect by doing something instead of forum hot-air

see, if your memmbers want it, they will vote it in, simple really.

 I choose not too, as I am happy with where we are at, as a sport, with the GCR's and classes.

Cheers Trev

Offline DJRacing

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Re: Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?
« Reply #62 on: September 17, 2010, 07:02:14 pm »
As much as your idea is a good one Graeme, I cant see a problem with Classic Motocross as an era (which, whether is good or bad, is now up to 1985). I do understand what you are trying to say and believe that it is probably needed, after all classic motocross started out with a cut off date of pre75, then it moved to pre80 and now sits at pre85. I struggle to see how a watercooled, linkaged bike with disc brakes, powervalves and safety seats are called vintage but that is now what has happened.
 What I do think needs to happen is that the most progressive/innovative time of motocross needs to be preserved and if we keep moving the goal posts to accomadate the whims of, "the bike is 20/25yrs old now" so therefore its a vintage and should have a class for it to race in, will only lose the magic that Classic Motocross is all about, preserving an era in time. Just because time marchs on doesnt mean that the eras of Vintage Motocross have to march with it. Thats the whole point of Vintage Motocross.

If the bikes of 1985 and onwards are so prevalent to the modern motocrosser of today/yesterday wouldnt they themselves be fighting to have a 'retro class' at their modern meetings? After all, bikes of post '85 would fit in better with their modern counterparts, at least they would look 'old' at those meetings.
Why should it be up to the Classic Motocross guys to contemplate adding these bikes to an already time constrainted race day.

 Why cant time stand still? - We are the ones who need to make that happen so that the bikes that started this "Era of time sport" is preserved.
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Offline worms

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Re: Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?
« Reply #63 on: September 17, 2010, 07:30:47 pm »
well said DJ

Cheers trev

suzuki43

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Re: Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?
« Reply #64 on: September 17, 2010, 07:38:21 pm »

Offline Graeme M

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Re: Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?
« Reply #65 on: September 17, 2010, 08:38:38 pm »
Hmmm... maybe it's my language skills. I *used* to think I did English OK.  :o

Let me try once more.  Yes 'Vintage' motocross reflects a particular era, and it was a great era. It should be preserved, enshrined even. So, no argument, vintage motocross is Pre 75.

That said, I don't think Pre 85 is vintage in that respect. It's an 'evolution' of the bikes of Pre 75, part of the change into modern bikes.

But Pre 85, Pre 90 or Pre 95 are part of a continuum. And the people who were 18 or so that rode those bikes will one day want to recreate their youth. I don't race VMX just because it's a magical era. Hell, I had no interest in MX back then. rather, I do so because it is reliving the sights, sounds and spirit of my youth.

Pre 85 didn't happen because of some magical technical aspect of those bikes. It happened because younger guys got to the point they wanted to relive THEIR youth, and they wanted to ride those bikes, not the Pre 75 things that they laughed at when they were 18.

The happy outcome of course is that many of those guys were introduced to a time they'd missed and they embraced the older classes. I don't think this will happen forever, but it will for a little while yet. But time marches on.

Even though WE might see Pre 95 bikes or Pre 2005 bikes as just more of the same soulless plastic hordes, people in the future won't. I really doubt that in 2020, blokes will think to themselves as they turn 40, "Hey, I wanna go relive my youth. I know, I'll get me a 1972 Husky. Yessir, that'll be FUN. Whooee".

So, here it is again.

* Classic Motocross can be the umbrella term for racing old dirtbikes.

* Within that we can have divisions that reflect the various eras. No matter what we may think, someday there will be people who are 20 now who will be 40.

* Those divisions can be described now. Not so that we can have more classes at existing meetings. No. So that we can have a defined, considered framework to enable those divisions to become an active, vibrant part of the broader spectrum.

* Today's clubs, your HEAVENS and WAVMXs and BMCCs and so on, do NOT have to run a Pre 95 class just because it's defined in the MoMS. But, if we have these divisions defined, AND someone wants to start up a Pre 95 club, they CAN. In a way that complements the sport.

To summarise, this is our chance to define how the sport evolves, whilst preserving all that's good about what we have now.

DJ says:

Quote
Just because time marchs on doesnt mean that the eras of Vintage Motocross have to march with it. Thats the whole point of Vintage Motocross.

If the bikes of 1985 and onwards are so prevalent to the modern motocrosser of today/yesterday wouldnt they themselves be fighting to have a 'retro class' at their modern meetings? After all, bikes of post '85 would fit in better with their modern counterparts, at least they would look 'old' at those meetings.
Why should it be up to the Classic Motocross guys to contemplate adding these bikes to an already time constrainted race day.

 Why cant time stand still? - We are the ones who need to make that happen so that the bikes that started this "Era of time sport" is preserved.

But... time DOES march on. And by moving on defining and preserving the various eras and what they represent, we prevent the loss of those eras to the sport.

I repeat, this does not mean that clubs need to add the new classes to their race day. Why on earth is that the conclusion? The new classes exist to offer direction. Clubs can adopt new classes if their members wish, just as happened with Pre 85. Or they can say NO to modern bikes, as HEAVEN has. Or the fans of Pre 95 can start their own club.

Why can't time stand still? It doesn't. Period. BUT we can preserve the eras of Classic MX such that to all intents and purposes, we can make time stand still, for all of us.

We are the ones who need to make that happen. We are the ones who need to ensure the future still has a place for our vintage motocross, as well as that of the CMX fan of tomorrow. And those in between.

The sport evolved because time moves. So do we have to evolve.

Offline Nathan S

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Re: Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?
« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2010, 08:40:22 pm »
.... I struggle to see how a watercooled, linkaged bike with disc brakes, powervalves and safety seats are called vintage but that is now what has happened.
 What I do think needs to happen is that the most progressive/innovative time of motocross needs to be preserved and if we keep moving the goal posts to accomadate the whims of, "the bike is 20/25yrs old now" so therefore its a vintage and should have a class for it to race in, will only lose the magic that Classic Motocross is all about, preserving an era in time. Just because time marchs on doesnt mean that the eras of Vintage Motocross have to march with it. Thats the whole point of Vintage Motocross.

Imagine you'd just heard an old bloke saying the same thing about old cars. What sort of bloke do you picture?

If the bikes of 1985 and onwards are so prevalent to the modern motocrosser of today/yesterday wouldnt they themselves be fighting to have a 'retro class' at their modern meetings?
???
They're just old bikes with no relevance to 99.9% of current MX riders, which is why they need to be a part of the old bike scene.

The 'one specific era' thing died with the introduction of pre-80.
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Offline NSR

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Re: Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?
« Reply #67 on: September 17, 2010, 09:02:38 pm »
Graeme,
Just want to let you know I can understand what your saying.
Cheers
Noel 
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Re: Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?
« Reply #68 on: September 17, 2010, 09:05:41 pm »

They're just old bikes with no relevance to 99.9% of current MX riders, which is why they need to be a part of the old bike scene

Nathan i think you will find there just old bikes with no relevance to the same percentage of vmx riders  ;)

In fact there just old bikes  :P

They got no soul

A vmx bike has soul  8)


« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 09:13:03 pm by TM BILL »

Offline LWC82PE

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Re: Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?
« Reply #69 on: September 17, 2010, 09:18:31 pm »
Quote
Graeme,
Just want to let you know I can understand what your saying.
Cheers
Noel 

I do too, when you sit an think about it seriously, its a good idea that he has come up with and thats comming from me whos not a big fan of pre 90/95 but at the same time i dont 'hate' them so much i want to see them banished to the corner and ignorned. They have a place in history and and there are people who can relate to that era of bike.
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Offline Nathan S

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Re: Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?
« Reply #70 on: September 17, 2010, 09:40:36 pm »

Nathan i think you will find there just old bikes with no relevance to the same percentage of vmx riders  ;)


Maybe, maybe not - but in any case, when did we become such a bunch of old women that we can't tolerate the idea of people having fun?

We're sounding like the stupid nimby wankers who bitch and moan about live music/trail bikes/whatever. "I just don't like it, and I want it stopped" or "There's a time and a place for that, and its not here!", etc...

Local club days usually have far more packed programmes.
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firko

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Re: Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?
« Reply #71 on: September 17, 2010, 10:03:13 pm »
Quote
.
 What I do think needs to happen is that the most progressive/innovative time of motocross needs to be preserved and if we keep moving the goal posts to accomadate the whims of, "the bike is 20/25yrs old now" so therefore its a vintage and should have a class for it to race in, will only lose the magic that Classic Motocross is all about, preserving an era in time. Just because time marchs on doesnt mean that the eras of Vintage Motocross have to march with it. Thats the whole point of Vintage Motocross.
Thanks DJ, the above paragraph encapsulates my thoughts on the continuous 'modernisation' of vintage motocross. Let's get the great mix that we've already got working to its full potential. 
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 10:12:33 pm by firko »

Offline DJRacing

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Re: Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?
« Reply #72 on: September 18, 2010, 12:15:35 am »
Hmmm... maybe it's my language skills. I *used* to think I did English OK.  :o


DJ says:

Quote
Just because time marchs on doesnt mean that the eras of Vintage Motocross have to march with it. Thats the whole point of Vintage Motocross.


But... time DOES march on. And by moving on defining and preserving the various eras and what they represent, we prevent the loss of those eras to the sport.


Graeme, I have always thought your written word was spot on. I didnt have a problem understanding what you were saying, I fully got it. As I quoted at the start of this thread and thoughout the copied thread, I was saying the same thing. There needs to be sub-categories under the banner of Classic Motocross. And I understand why you would want to put it in the MOMs but I worry that each time a newer era class is introduced at club level will it be at the detriment of an older class.
A sport can evolve without having to move with the times. Its more to do with how we as Classic Motocrossers evolve our sport, and it seems to me that we are heading down that road of 'just adding new eras' rather than trying to get more people involved in what we have already.
Dont get me wrong, as I have said I do fully understand your concept and the reasons for it, yes it is as I have said before a great idea and maybe many clubs will choose to stay as the status quo, but what would happen if clubs thought that they could make more money 'easily' by bringing in these newer eras? Would that mean less track time for the classes that we have now? Would it/could it mean that some of the older lesser number's classes get dropped from the meeting? Time will tell. Once again, I'm not saying that what you have proposed is bad or wrong because its not and yes it would work. What I am saying is, do we need it... do we have to include eras in classic/vintage motocross that werent there at the start. By this I mean who are we catering for? If it is 'everyone' then we already have that as modern motocross.
Are we by introducing this type of system crossing the line from "same old dirt" and "in the spirit" to "old dirt bike racing" or "retro motocross"?


 Pre 85, Pre 90 or Pre 95 are part of a continuum. And the people who were 18 or so that rode those bikes will one day want to recreate their youth. I don't race VMX just because it's a magical era. Hell, I had no interest in MX back then. rather, I do so because it is reliving the sights, sounds and spirit of my youth. Isnt that a magical era then?

Pre 85 didn't happen because of some magical technical aspect of those bikes. It happened because younger guys got to the point they wanted to relive THEIR youth, and they wanted to ride those bikes, not the Pre 75 things that they laughed at when they were 18. Sorry Graeme, do we need people like that... but thats what we as VMXers need to change, and by saying that isnt it like saying all older bikes before my time are laughable, and thats the exact attitude that we need to change and evolve not discourage by having as many eras so people never need to ride older bikes.



I repeat, this does not mean that clubs need to add the new classes to their race day. Why on earth is that the conclusion? If there is beer in the fridge, does that mean it will stay there? The new classes exist to offer direction. I see your point but doesnt VMX already have a direction Clubs can adopt new classes if their members wish, just as happened with Pre 85. Or they can say NO to modern bikes, as HEAVEN has. Or the fans of Pre 95 can start their own club. Now this is exactly what needs to happen. Why not leave VMX as VMX and let these guys approach MA and start a completely new category in the MOMs and call it RETRO MOTOCROSS because I'm sure it will be more about the racing than about the bikes, and if they so wish to invite classic motocrossers to their meetings so be it and the RETRO boys can have as many eras as they want.


[/quote]
 
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 12:21:02 am by DJRacing »
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Offline DJRacing

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Re: Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?
« Reply #73 on: September 18, 2010, 01:14:01 am »
.... I struggle to see how a watercooled, linkaged bike with disc brakes, powervalves and safety seats are called vintage but that is now what has happened.
 What I do think needs to happen is that the most progressive/innovative time of motocross needs to be preserved and if we keep moving the goal posts to accomadate the whims of, "the bike is 20/25yrs old now" so therefore its a vintage and should have a class for it to race in, will only lose the magic that Classic Motocross is all about, preserving an era in time. Just because time marchs on doesnt mean that the eras of Vintage Motocross have to march with it. Thats the whole point of Vintage Motocross.

Imagine you'd just heard an old bloke saying the same thing about old cars. What sort of bloke do you picture?
Sorry Nathan, I'm not sure what your saying or meaning, but if its about cars moving with the times then good on them, this isnt car racing so what is your point. After all your usually the one who asks for points and informative debate or discussion.

If the bikes of 1985 and onwards are so prevalent to the modern motocrosser of today/yesterday wouldnt they themselves be fighting to have a 'retro class' at their modern meetings?
???
They're just old bikes with no relevance to 99.9% of current MX riders, which is why they need to be a part of the old bike scene.
The modern guys dont want them so the vintage guys have to take them, and more than likely to the detriment of our sport as we have now?
The old bike scene?? Is that what VMX means to you? 
It seems to me that people believe that new eras need to be introduced to VMX because of personal agendas and or a cheap form of racing. In all honesty Graeme's idea to categorizing older motocross bikes sooner than latter is maybe what is needed but for myself after going to many different types of vmx and modern meetings the attitudes of some of the riders is about as different as how their bikes look and handle. Is this what we really need?


The 'one specific era' thing died with the introduction of pre-80.
Maybe, maybe not. The bikes are still twinshocked, aircooled with drum brakes. That to me says its still within the realms of the vintage concept.
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Offline Graeme M

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Re: Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?
« Reply #74 on: September 18, 2010, 07:28:33 am »
It wasn't just your comment I was directing my response to DJ, though those paragraphs serveed to illustrate where I thought people were missing the point.

Clubs serve members interests, or at least I hope they do. If a club runs the vintage classes because that's what members want, it's unlikely they'll suddenly start running a whole bunch of Pre95 races.

I'd have thought they'll respond to the 'market' so to speak.

So I can't imagine why if we create a Pre 90/95 division, clubs would suddenly start running those to the detriment of their core base. Sure, if enough young blokes (I mean 35-45 there) turn up wanting to race that, they may add a class. If so, their base grows. And like Pre85, some of those guys may be switched on to the older classes.

Clubs may choose to reduce the number of vintage classes, but if the interest grows again they may then re-introduce them. Clubs should react to members needs, surely?

I am NOT advocating introducing new classes and forcing clubs to adopt them. I am suggesting we influence how things will change in time. We could say that Evo 2 cannot be a championship cl;ass until 2015. But clubs can have a demo class, or run club l;evel races for that class if they wish. It offeers a choice based on an agreed formula.