Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?

[Graeme M]

I know that this topic of pre 90/pre 95 keeps on coming up and causing angst, but let's face it, there will come a time when guys want to race the bikes of their youth and they'll be Pre 2005 models.

So, I think we should move now and prepare the way for the future. I'd like to seriously propose the creation of a set of era-based classes within the framework of a sport called Classic Motocross.

These era based classes will be able to stand on their own. That is, a promoting club can run races based around any one or combination of these classes. But in doing so, the original grassroots sport, vintage motocross, will be a clearly identified class of the sport that remains true to its origin and spirit.

I propose the following era based breakup:

Pre 65
Pre 75
Pre 85
Pre 95
Pre 2005

I can see an argument for combining Pre 65 and Pre 70, or even making it Pre 70 and Pre 75.

These classes would be called as follows:

Dinosaur:  Pre 1965
Vintage: 65 (or 70)-75 (ie Pre 75)
Evolution 1:  75-85 (ie Pre 85)
Evolution 2: 85-95 (ie Pre 95)
New Era: 95-05 (ie Pre 05)

These fit nicely. Vintage is all the old 7"/4" bikes. Evo 1 is the first round of major evolution. Evo 2 is the second round taking us through to what is today largely the modern era. And New Era encapsulates the emergence of the new 4 stroke technology.

I'm serious about this, and would even be willing to start trying to draft up a proposal. I've always wanted to nail Vintage as Pre 75, but not exclude later classes. With something like the above, we have a course into the future and no more endless arguing about whether to let in Pre 90 or whatever. You'd still have vintage and clubs that do it, but you'd also have an Evo 2 class that someone can get up and running if there's a call for it. Might only be a single race at a typical meeting, but what's wrong with that?

In terms of the Nats, there's a natural path to having Vintage and Evolution Nats separately, if that's what the members want.

As for club level racing, for those who are passionate about vintage being Pre75, well, they'd be right. But those wanting to see later model bikes could lobby their club to introduce an Evo 2 class, or even form their own Evolution club.

Clubs like HEAVEN could for example have a 4 event series respectively for Vintage and Evolution. Perhaps each alternate round, with tracks that suit, for example Bulahdelah for Vintage and Canberra for Evolution.

I don't know how we'd break up the classes within those Eras. Perhaps Vintage with its dropping numbers could have an up to 250 and and Open class in Dinosaur and Vintage.  Evo 1 is a bit tricky, but could move to a year cutoff such as Pre 78, Pre 81 and Pre 85. Or something based around the drum/disk brake and air/water cooling distinction. This also lets us introduce a year cutoff on the current Evo class. I favour Pre 78, Pre 81 and Pre 85 cos it pretty much fits what happened. But plenty of room to nut that one out.

So, what's the thoughts? Worth pursuing? I'm keen.

[DJRacing]

Graeme, this was debated awhile back, have a read, and a laugh   

   http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=1479.0

[DJRacing]

   All I am suggesting is that maybe that era of bike could be known as (for want of a better title) EMX. They (EMX Bikes) would still come under the great name of VMX but just as a sub-category. I am not trying to detract anything from them or glorify them in anyway but merely title their era.
   The bikes before 1975 should be known as 'Vintage' as that is where it all started and the bikes from 1975 to 1985 could be known as the 'Evolution' era, hence EMX. I dont really percieve my own bikes (1975 through to 1985) as vintage, but I look at BSA's, Cheney's and bikes like those to be 'vintage'. The decade ('75 through '85) doesnt look vintage to me but that is just my personal thoughts.
   I state decades in here because is seems a natural cut off point to distinquish the changes of the look of the bikes and what people perceive as vintage verses evolution.

[LWC82PE]

Dinosaur:  Pre 1965
Vintage: 65 (or 70)-75 (ie Pre 75)
Evolution 1:  75-85 (ie Pre 85)
Evolution 2: 85-95 (ie Pre 95)
New Era: 95-05 (ie Pre 05)

This class is to wide, you cant have 1975 model bikes racing with 1984's

[Graeme M]

Well, no you wouldn't have 75s against 85s. I am suggesting a broad category. Within Evo 1, you would have the existing classes - Pre 78, Pre 85, and something to cover the current Evo bikes, maybe Pre 81? The idea is to quarantine the actual eras, so that vintage is always vintage and it's Pre 75. But then you can have Evo 2 which brings in the Pre 90 and Pre 95 classes.

With that sort of categorisation, we can have clubs that are either dedicated to one or more of these.

You aren't diluting the sport, you are just making the landscape a bit clearer. It may be that in NSW no-one embraces Evo 2. But they might at some point have a race for an Evo 2 class. Or an Evo 2 club may come into being. It's unlikely though that an Evo 2 club would result in the death of Vintage and Evo 1 racing.

[odd1]

Well I have to say that seems like a very good proposal and if the emotion is taken out of the debate  and common sense is used I think something workable can happen to satisfy most people. ( some will never be happy )

[LWC82PE]

Ok good idea, but instead would like to see the cut off at 99 instead of going to 2005.

[Nathan S]

You know its a good idea, Graeme.
So much of the reason we talk around in circles is because everyone gets too hung up on their own personal definition of particular words, and we end up having stupid arguments over trivial shit while ignoring the big picture issues. Your suggestion removes most of the avenues for that, while also giving every punter what he/she wants.

I'd be interested to see how pre-XX naysayers try to derail sensible discussion on this - but am sure it will happen.

[Graeme M]

Of course Walter. But... time doesn't stand still. This sets the scene for the future. Of course no-one will actually race New Era now. And we'd probably have just the most basic rules - now. But one day, maybe, in 2020 there'll be 37 year old guys who find themselves wanting to get a 2003 YZ250F and go do some Classic Motocross racing. Closer to now, we might see some Evo 2 races on the grid. But they'll be the Pre 90 division of Evo 2. Works for me.

[mainline]

I hear and read about dwindling numbers in vmx club race meets, whether it's a sign of current economic conditions or other factors I don't know. Whether it is an actual fact or not, I don't know.

I do think though that introducing pre-95 is like lobbing a grenade into the mix to try and sort things out. I can't for the life of me imagine too many guys being that enthused about going out and restoring/racing a 1994 model bike to try and recapture the glory days which were basically just last week.
I also can't imagine too many spectators being interested in turning up to watch the aforementioned bikes.

I'm happy to be convinced that numbers are consistently down in VMX race meets, and if so something needs to be done to try and improve things. I just don't think this is it. As much as I love the QVMX meets I attend and appreciate the huge amounts of effort that those more heavily involved in the club put in, from what I've seen, since pre90 was introduced, the pre70/65 class has basically died.

I can't imagine that introducing a "classic" 1994 Falcon/commodore class would increase race numbers at vintage car race meets, and I don't think we'd be seeing this sort of kneejerk reaction in any other form of vintage/classic motorsport.   

[Graeme M]

You're missing the point. This isn't about getting the numbers back or 'fixing' VMX.

It's about resolving the argument over the whole Pre 90 and Pre 95 thing, whilst preserving Vintage in perpetuity. It's also about setting a succession plan in place for the future so that the sport doesn't have to be constantly reinvented.

I'll say it again. If we have an Evo 2 class in the MoMS, then if anyone anywhere wants to start doing it, all power to them. But the traditional clubs probably aren;t about to introduce it as part of their usual offering. They MAY have a one-off race meet for that class, or have a couple of races on their program. But at least they'll ALL be doing it consistently.

[Nathan S]

I do think though that introducing pre-95 is like lobbing a grenade into the mix to try and sort things out. I can't for the life of me imagine too many guys being that enthused about going out and restoring/racing a 1994 model bike to try and recapture the glory days which were basically just last week.
I also can't imagine too many spectators being interested in turning up to watch the aforementioned bikes.

VMX has never been about un-informed spectators - its too hard to explain to a non-bike person why a Metisse is cool, or the historical significance of a 125 Elsinore, or whatever. There are plenty of un-informed punters who will happily come and watch bikes (that happen to be old) being ridden hard, and they're not going to be upset by watching newer bikes.

I can't imagine that introducing a "classic" 1994 Falcon/commodore class would increase race numbers at vintage car race meets, and I don't think we'd be seeing this sort of kneejerk reaction in any other form of vintage/classic motorsport.   

Actually... The post-classic road race guys already run a 1990~95 (ie: pre-96) class, and the car guys run Historic GpA for pre-93 cars (remembering that the SuperCar formula came in after 93, that's the logical cut-off for them).
http://www.postclassicracing.com.au/pages/raceclasses.aspx
http://www.cams.com.au/Sport/Historics/Historic%20Groups.aspx

Its only us 'historic' dirt bike types that keep burying our heads in the sand by trying to pretend that its still 1994...

[AjayVMX]

Guys, pre-90 and pre-95 or even double overhead cam, fuel injected 4 stroke classes (work out which year that is) are NOT what VMX is about.

The reality of the situation is that the era from around 1965 through to 1985 is derived from the great technological change that occured in the design of the motorcycles during that era and THAT is what makes it so easy to define that era as VMX.

Since 1985, despite what anyone may claim, bike design has NOT progressed in the same kinds of leaps an bounds that it did in 1965-1985.  The fact that a bike like a KX500 remained competitive and virtually unchanged from 1988 through to 2003 is a blatent example of this fact.  Indeed if open class 2 strokes were still the premier class in MX, it is unlikely that they would STILL have changed much today.

Another critical area of difference between the VMX era and post 1985 is that there was a huge change in the manufacturing supremacy during the 1965-1985 period.  We went from British supremacy through European diversity (anyone who has witnessed Mark Holloway's 1974 125cc MX bike collecion can attest to the diversity of manufacturers in 1974) to Japanese dominance.  After 1985, not a lot has changed... 

By all means, have your club incorporate whatever classes you want to suit your purpose.    BUT, the VMX era is defined not by popularity, but by the specific attributes of that ERA which made it special and unique. 

[LWC82PE]

You're missing the point. This isn't about getting the numbers back or 'fixing' VMX.

It's about resolving the argument over the whole Pre 90 and Pre 95 thing, whilst preserving Vintage in perpetuity. It's also about setting a succession plan in place for the future so that the sport doesn't have to be constantly reinvented.

I'll say it again. If we have an Evo 2 class in the MoMS, then if anyone anywhere wants to start doing it, all power to them. But the traditional clubs probably aren;t about to introduce it as part of their usual offering. They MAY have a one-off race meet for that class, or have a couple of races on their program. But at least they'll ALL be doing it consistently.

I understand that and it makes sense to me.

[Graeme M]

But that is exactly my point Ajay. You can't bury your head in the sand and pretend that in time, old guys won't want to race the old MX bikes of their youth, and those old bikes will be Pre 95 bikes. To THOSE guys, the 94 CR250 WILL be an old bike compared to the 2010 or 2015 bikes everyone is riding around them.

BUT. VINTAGE motocross is the classic old bikes from yesteryear, from the murky depths of the past.

If we set in place a way for CLASSIC MOTOCROSS to chart a course into the future, allowing for new blood to relive their youth, but preserving the spirit of an earlier age, well, I think we'll have done something worthwhile.

There is no way that us over 50s have a monopoly on reliving a time from our past. It's OUR past, not that of the kids of 1994 or 1998 or 2003.