OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: 09.0 on November 08, 2013, 06:49:55 AM
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A good friend ( Noel Harker, living legend!) who does come on here from time to time had a bit to say regarding the young hired guns that turn up for the titles and just as quickly disappear again.
The later it got on Sunday after the meeting the less coherent on the subject he was. Might have had something to do with the alcohol. He did a mighty fine job of tuning the bar maid as well. ;D
His idea very basically was to have a form of qualifying by making them ride some Vmx meetings in the lead up to the titles. Thought it was a good idea.
Please think your ideas on this subject before hitting the keyboard to put your two cents worth in.
I hate reading dribble that obviously has not had any thought put into it. ???
I personally like the competition and like it more if I can beat them. But thought it worthy of a chat.
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I agree with it,
They only win their age group,
And I like seeing the old bikes ridden like they should,
Until Craig Anderson's injury last week I have been waiting for Craig and Danny Ham to return to their battles at Lakes.
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We have similar at Mustang car shows,guys turn up for trophies at the annual car show and you dont see them to next year (no support for club or marquee) Not an easy one as like vmx it raises the standard when they are there,I can see both sides,not an easy one to resolve.Car club looked at the "do so many meeting to be eligible "idea and that will come up at the AGM.Probably only affects 2-3 in each class at the front end of the field,while the joe blogs hired guns having a ride at the back go un noticed.
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After young Dougy* wasn't allowed to ride the MrVMX meetings, a few of us kicked around the idea of:
"For anyone under 30 to be eligible to ride, you must have competed in at least two VMX meetings in previous years."
You'd prove it with a letter from one of the recognised VMX clubs, and/or net published photos from VMX meetings.
*Doug's been actively involved in VMX for as long as I have (maybe longer?), but he's still under 30. He's quick, but he is certainly not a "hired gun"/Trophy hunter/young lunatic etc.
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Its a hard one , as Graeme said its good to see the bikes ridden / raced as they were intended but it leaves a bit of a bad taste to some when they only front for the titles .
I think the you must have ridden other events prior to the nats would be hard to police :-\
Only letting them race in their own age group is one solution, but if they hold an MA licence i dont know how you go about excluding them from open title events.
Its always going to be controversial , maybe if EVERYONE was made to wear period riding apparell that might put them off riding ;D
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Yeah we talked about this on Sunday night and thought it would be a good idea for under 30's to have to ride 4 VMX meetings through the year to qualify for the Nats.
A lot of these young guys never ride or show any interest in vintage mx through the year and have no intention of owning a VMX bike then turn up at the titles on borrowed bikes to take home a trophy.
The presentation on Sunday night certainly looked different to previous vintage titles with many young guys taking home the silverware.
It makes it hard for us 50+ year olds... There are only age groups in pre 75.
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I for one was surprised by the pace of some of the races. Pre 78 open was really quick and I'm sure Noel was a little taken back to find out even thou he was ridding ok he was dicing for last place with me. I still enjoyed the racing and at least I had someone to dice with.
Hired guns are a fact of racing if you dont like it stick with aged classes.
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Bill is on to it,ban fluro bling riding gear......lol
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I totally agree. I would be calling for at least 12 months commitment.
Very easy to check. Just look at his pointscore from his respective club. Accompanied with a letter from the club secretary. It would be just like footy, you have to play a certain amount of games to be eligible for the finals.
The young guy I had on my bike in Pre 78 125 is Liam Beverly. He is 16. Liam started racing in VMX at 12 years of age with Heaven alongside his elder brother, father and grandfather. In the last 4 years he has not missed a meeting ( that's over 30 meets ) aside from say Noël Lewis nobody at Heaven would ride more races than Liam. He turned senior this year and has not missed a meet. Are we to say to Liam now that you can play with the big boys, you can't .
8 weeks ago Liam won the Premier Pre 78 Heaven title, Crawford River Cup, on my 125. The cup is a Pre 78 All Powers race. There were absolutely no complaints from anyone in the field regarding Liam's age.
Maybe Liam should be questioning the commitment of others, regardless of their age or standing.
We are kidding ourselves if we don't encourage these kids to come through the ranks, just like footy, if we are to survive. Setting age limits , just as MR VMX did will only alienate the young ones and eventually it will go the way of MR VMX. Dead as a Dodo.
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Ted kids are the future of modern mx not vmx, they can ride moderns and be competitive till their 30's THEN go to vmx. In the 20+ years I've been in vmx we've never relied on kids to make up the numbers.
It's not like footy where your finished, game over at 35...
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here we go again you guys wanting to change the rules
this has been going on for the last 4 years I know off in cdt.
some of the young guys stay some don't get their title and off to something else
so if you put stumbling blocks in front of our sport it will fade away to just club days
its a national open not a club day open to anyone who wants to enter
if you are good enough to beat them great if not suck it up
I for one like to see the old bikes go realy fast as they should be
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There may not be much difference between sponsoring a young fast rider (less than 30 years old) and sponsoring a fast ex A grade MX rider, pro class enduro rider or pro class desert rider in their 40`s for the titles. They are sponsored to do what they do best and that is to ride a bike fast and bring some excitement to the VMX sport for the other competitors and the viewing public. If any rules are put in place that stipulate that a certain VMX race schedule must be undertaken for the younger riders (less than 30 years old), then that must transfer across to ex state and australian listed A grade mx riders etc as well, regardless of age.
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why is this so important to sum of you guys its just a hobby or interest in life so your not bored be for we die my 18 year old son is just starting to race vmx cos no money for modern mx
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At 2012 Classic Nats MA (by design or accident) only gave medals in Pre75 for the age groups that had the numbers, not the open. If the young guns "just love riding the old bikes" as the proud fathers often say to me, it makes you wonder why the
medal is so important.
I think young guys who are into VMX and not just at the Nats should be welcomed, but it would not be hard to contol if the wish was to avoid the Nats only jockeys. We had one at least this year who you only ever see at the Nationals.
Regarding Pre78, after last year when we had nearly full grids in 250 and 263 +, and 23 in 125, I intended to propose to MA that age groups be introduced. Numbers were down this year in Pre78 but I'll submit it anyway.
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I did say in another post somewhere that we need the young guns to come out and play. Having the younger guys and gals racing is what will keep the sport of VMX ticking along in the future when all of us are super seniors.
I personally love seeing a bike being used to it's full potential by someone with little or no fear.... reminds me of my younger days ::)
I did also make a suggestion that maybe having to compete in at least 3 VMX club meetings a year could be the way to go. But the rule would have to apply to everybody, not just the younguns. We as a sport cannot be seen to discriminate against anybody.
The forms we sign at the beginning of each race day could be used as proof of attendance. I'm sure most club secretary's would have some type of filing system for the indemnity forms we sign so it would be easy enough to get copies to present at title races. Or.......
Maybe a race log book. Something simple that gets dated and stamped/signed at every event sign in.
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This is a tough one. There was a time not that long ago when I was dead set against young racers competing in VMX. My worry was that while it's fun to see these kids ride the wheels off old bikes, they win at the expense of an older rider who's involved in VMX because he has a connection to the era and a genuine love of old bikes, it's not only his sport, it's his hobby. I'm yet to observe a kid under 20* who has a genuine passion for the vintage bike he's riding to the point of restoring and owning his own bike. To them, riding dads bike is a fun day out with perhaps a trophy to brag about but there's little or no passion.
Right from the start in 1988 I've had guest riders on board at least one or two of my bikes at most meetings I've attended. I've had Laurie Alderton, Pelle Granquist, Per Klitland, Kevin Flood, Bob Tindal and many more old stars on board my bikes in attempts to broaden the VMX gene pool and inject some star quality to the program. All of these riders had a passion for the sport and many went on to compete on their own vintage bikes. I wonder however, how many of those young guns love it so much they'd do the same? On the other side of the coin I was genuinely touched to see the pride Ted had in young Liam or that of my old Victorian racing mate Peter Bowen seeing his lads rip on his Maicos. Perhaps there should be some sort of qualifying standard to ride the Nats......say having to have raced at two meetings leading up to the Nats or something similar. I can see some room for discussion regarding somehow restricting young guns to competing only in their age group but I can understand objections to this if only for implementation problems.
Whatever comes of this discussion, I think the young blokes are here to stay. Despite the naysayers of doom's prophecies, the 'Classic' faction of our sport is booming and I think for that to continue we need to attract younger guys to older bikes. My motocross riding days are long over but last weekends Nats inspired me to remain involved by putting others on my bikes. I'd prefer to bring old guns back as I did with Tony Clarke and our jinxed Cheney partnership ::), but I also got a warm buzz from the commitment and good humour young Sarah and Robert Dillon showed to both Davey's YZ125 and my DT1. If we can nurture a passion for old bikes in the young guns we've got it made but I still think Johnny's unfortunately got it on the button with his " kids are the future of modern mx not vmx, they can ride moderns and be competitive till their 30's THEN go to vmx" statement.
* with the exception of this forums Michael and his GT80 and TM400 restos ;D
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The problem with excluding people is that they take other competitors with them ("If I can't take the boys, then I'm not going either" type of thing).
It is also very hard to get them back later.
The "kids" are not the majority (or even a large portion) of the field. But does excluding (say) 10% of the field grow the sport or shrink it? (that's NOT a rhetorical question, BTW).
I can't help but think that the age awards being only for Pre-75 is a big part of the problem.
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col
what happened this year at the cdt nats was.
ma as I was told made all classes extra races so 150.00 to start plus classes
ie pre75 then pre 75 age groups so if you entered in the pre75 250 then your age group it was 30.00 and 30.00 for your age group
adding age groups will just cost us more and donate to ma coffers.
that's how it was I just entered my age groups,lucky they had enough to have titles.dont forget what you do to cmx you will do to cdt as well same set of rules
jim
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Yeah we talked about this on Sunday night and thought it would be a good idea for under 30's to have to ride 4 VMX meetings through the year to qualify for the Nats.
A lot of these young guys never ride or show any interest in vintage mx through the year and have no intention of owning a VMX bike then turn up at the titles on borrowed bikes to take home a trophy.
The presentation on Sunday night certainly looked different to previous vintage titles with many young guys taking home the silverware.
It makes it hard for us 50+ year olds... There are only age groups in pre 75.
My thoughts too.
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For once I'm at a loss for words except I will say this ..... there are some in this sport that will do their best to tune it to a standstill and when it's dead and buried will wonder what happened .. why did the early classes die out??
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I only did 1 club day this year I would be pissed off if I could not ride at the nats because of some stupid rule because it would be enforced for everyone some time you get too busy to race bikes let alone work on them
jim
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I'm yet to observe a kid under 20* who has a genuine passion for the vintage bike he's riding to the point of restoring and owning his own bike. To them, riding dads bike is a fun day out with perhaps a trophy to brag about but there's little or no passion.
You would have met one at my pit/camp in young Luke Corbett Firko. Not only did he build the YZ400 he was racing (yes it's my bike but it's all his work) but he is now looking for his own VMX bikes. Maybe if he hears about movements to limit his involvement he won't bother.
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For once I'm at a loss for words except I will say this ..... there are some in this sport that will do their best to tune it to a standstill and when it's dead and buried will wonder what happened .. why did the early classes die out??
+1
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I did say in another post somewhere that we need the young guns to come out and play. Having the younger guys and gals racing is what will keep the sport of VMX ticking along in the future when all of us are super seniors.
I personally love seeing a bike being used to it's full potential by someone with little or no fear.... reminds me of my younger days ::)
I did also make a suggestion that maybe having to compete in at least 3 VMX club meetings a year could be the way to go. But the rule would have to apply to everybody, not just the younguns. We as a sport cannot be seen to discriminate against anybody.
The forms we sign at the beginning of each race day could be used as proof of attendance. I'm sure most club secretary's would have some type of filing system for the indemnity forms we sign so it would be easy enough to get copies to present at title races. Or.......
Maybe a race log book. Something simple that gets dated and stamped/signed at every event sign in.
Hmm.
Would you be era-specific?
I mean, would racing Pre-90 qualify you for the Classic MX Nats? (And vice-versa)
If so, then will it achieve what we hope?
If not, then I'd be excluded...
I have no real opinion, just thinking out loud.
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do you bring in a owner /rider rule? Are the kids hounding the owners of these bikes for a ride or the other way?
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For once I'm at a loss for words except I will say this ..... there are some in this sport that will do their best to tune it to a standstill and when it's dead and buried will wonder what happened .. why did the early classes die out??
+2
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For once I'm at a loss for words except I will say this ..... there are some in this sport that will do their best to tune it to a standstill and when it's dead and buried will wonder what happened .. why did the early classes die out??
Plus one more.
Also the paying extra for every class you enter I'm sure is a club / promoter thing, not from MA
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I only did 1 club day this year I would be pissed off if I could not ride at the nats because of some stupid rule because it would be enforced for everyone some time you get too busy to race bikes let alone work on them
jim
That's a fair point you make Jim.... we all know not everybody can be happy...I did say in another post somewhere that we need the young guns to come out and play. Having the younger guys and gals racing is what will keep the sport of VMX ticking along in the future when all of us are super seniors.
I personally love seeing a bike being used to it's full potential by someone with little or no fear.... reminds me of my younger days ::)
I did also make a suggestion that maybe having to compete in at least 3 VMX club meetings a year could be the way to go. But the rule would have to apply to everybody, not just the younguns. We as a sport cannot be seen to discriminate against anybody.
The forms we sign at the beginning of each race day could be used as proof of attendance. I'm sure most club secretary's would have some type of filing system for the indemnity forms we sign so it would be easy enough to get copies to present at title races. Or.......
Maybe a race log book. Something simple that gets dated and stamped/signed at every event sign in.
Hmm.
Would you be era-specific?
I mean, would racing Pre-90 qualify you for the Classic MX Nats? (And vice-versa)
If so, then will it achieve what we hope?
If not, then I'd be excluded...
I have no real opinion, just thinking out loud.
Good point Nathan.
In short, NO, any VMX event attendance will fill the criteria. A lot of classic racers/riders (and vice versa) have bikes covering classic and post classic eras so making the rule era specific would not be fair. As we know, some post and classic meetings are held on the same weekend and the rider makes a choice on which to attend. We can't be in 2 places at once. Usually the race closer to home wins out.
I believe it will achieve in removing the "one title guns" from racing the Nats and perhaps maybe even induce a few more young people to the classic events once they see how much fun our old and simple bikes are.
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You would have met one at my pit/camp in young Luke Corbett Firko. Not only did he build the YZ400 he was racing (yes it's my bike but it's all his work) but he is now looking for his own VMX bikes. Maybe if he hears about movements to limit his involvement he won't bother.
OK, I missed Luke but he's an exception, and a great one to have in our sport. Unfortunately Craig he's in a very small minority. You missed the point I was making, I'm not at all calling to limit his and other younger racers involvement, what I'm hoping is that some kind of middle ground can be found where older racers such as Noel Harker who've put into our sport for decades aren't driven away by one meeting wonders. Over the last 25 years I've seen many young racers come along, win a title or two and disappear for ever, and regular vintage racers have been whingeing about it for just as long. Luke is the type of bloke we want to attract, let's hope we get more like him.
* I once played in a Rugby tournament in Nevada against a side that was packed solid with internationals from all over the world, including two All Blacks and a Wallaby. We were the best team in California and had been for two seasons yet this normally mid-pack team stacked with it's 8 or 9 ring ins paid for by a squillionaire property developer fan hammered us and every other team in the tournament. That's how I see some of these young gun Nats wins.
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I haven't ridden a Nats,but am not against anyone lining up to race on the grid.As previously mentioned by other guys we want to put as few obstacles in the way of people riding as possible.A healthy grid should have lots of bike brands and lots of various aged riders regardles of whether they have done club days or not.I don't see how you could police any other system.At the end of the day don't we want another generation showing some intersest in the sport,even if its a big meeting(could lead to more active involvement).As previously mentioned some hired guns are more mature ;) and its good to see them ride as a participant and spectator.
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For once I'm at a loss for words except I will say this ..... there are some in this sport that will do their best to tune it to a standstill and when it's dead and buried will wonder what happened .. why did the early classes die out??
count me in.
do you bring in a owner /rider rule ?
HIRED GUNS - Aust Nats in Toowoomba 2014.What will they say if the likes of Belly,Gunter and Bailey come back for a title ! :o
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The ownership thing would never work , ole mate sells the gun the bike for a dollar on Friday and buys it back on Monday for a dollar.
You will always get a difference of opinion between those who are in the running for a title and those who turn up to make the numbers .
I believe age group racing for all eras could help the situation, if i won an open title i wouldn't want to think i won it because certain licence holders were excluded , open is open to all ,but age groups presents a more level playing field .
As for ex A graders and champs , they would have beaten me in the day so whats the difference.
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For once I'm at a loss for words except I will say this ..... there are some in this sport that will do their best to tune it to a standstill and when it's dead and buried will wonder what happened .. why did the early classes die out??
Plus one more.
Also the paying extra for every class you enter I'm sure is a club / promoter thing, not from MA
+5 :) :) :) :) :) :)
Man polictics
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Simmo, re your reply 19 the old classes died out because as Evo, Pre78, and even more so Pre85 came in with Pre90 on the horizon, the pre60 got squeezed out and virtually disappeared. Pre65 was also heading that way.
The split allowed the promoter to make the programn attractive to the older classes, and last year we had a championship Pre60 class for the first time in years. This Nats we had a 50% increase in Pre 60 with guys like Brad , Glen Wollenweber and others buying bikes to compete in that class. We had three Jawas entered. When did you last see one of those at a Nats ? AJS, Ariel, Triumph and BSA 500s were wheeled out. How good is that?
Classic Nats are in a good place, and now its Post Classics turn to shine. Only 5 months to the 2014 Post Classic Nats at Echo Valley and itll be a ripper.
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do you bring in a owner /rider rule? Are the kids hounding the owners of these bikes for a ride or the other way?
At Heaven all our kids have their own vintage bikes, some have more than 1.
My nephew competes at Heaven on a 1984 YZ 80 L. He has 2. He is 12. He will be at the Nats when 16.
Another member has a son that has been racing at Heaven since he was 12. He will be at the Nats when 16. He is 13. He will have his dads 250 D, 400 D or 74 Husky to ride
If enough older guys still want a trophy, petition for age racing. Excluding future talent is surely the death knell.
Do Qld VMX clubs cater to juniors?
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For once I'm at a loss for words except I will say this ..... there are some in this sport that will do their best to tune it to a standstill and when it's dead and buried will wonder what happened .. why did the early classes die out??
Way to go Simo ;) Presumably nobody was forced to ride at gun point and some young bloke must have actualy liked riding the bike to give up a weekend chasing young girls with big bazookas around.
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The more I read and the more I think, the more I conclude that "hired guns" are inevitable, regardless of the circumstances.
And the more I think that they're not really National titles if we are excluding riders...
Maybe the real answer is more along the lines of awards for age groups, within ALL eras. Not separate age races, maybe just U35/O34/O50 splits within the race. That way the fast old guys are properly recognised, without clogging g the race programme with 500 extra races.
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Simmo, re your reply 19 the old classes died out because as Evo, Pre78, and even more so Pre85 came in with Pre90 on the horizon, the pre60 got squeezed out and virtually disappeared. Pre65 was also heading that way.
The split allowed the promoter to make the programn attractive to the older classes, and last year we had a championship Pre60 class for the first time in years. This Nats we had a 50% increase in Pre 60 with guys like Brad , Glen Wollenweber and others buying bikes to compete in that class. We had three Jawas entered. When did you last see one of those at a Nats ? AJS, Ariel, Triumph and BSA 500s were wheeled out. How good is that?
Classic Nats are in a good place, and now its Post Classics turn to shine. Only 5 months to the 2014 Post Classic Nats at Echo Valley and itll be a ripper.
Thanks Col, I have never seen so many classic bikes in the paddock as I did on the weekend and I loved it. Those bike are well before my time but I know they are the DNA link that led to the ones I ride today. I even tried to buy Mainlines BSA project (and only missed it literally by minutes) because I was so inspired by what I saw last weekend.
I am not a long serving member of the VMX community (yet) but I am here for the long haul and hope to be as valulable to the sport one day as you are now. I will admit I am concerned about the future of our sport hence sponsoring Luke and Jemma on the weekend and I think we need to make sure we don't regulate it to a stand still.
The event was a great success and I hope it continues to be so. I also hope the post classic nats are a kick arse winner as well and will start prepping a couple of bikes for that event when my shoulder heals.
As a side note, Luke called me last night and is now actively looking for his own bike ... an Evo CR250 .. around a 1980 model ... I finished that phone call and thought to myself "the seed has been sown .... goal achieved" :)
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For once I'm at a loss for words except I will say this ..... there are some in this sport that will do their best to tune it to a standstill and when it's dead and buried will wonder what happened .. why did the early classes die out??
I don't understand that statement. I haven't seen anything written on here that advocates anything other than promoting the early classes. We want and need younger riders and I encourage more of them (as I clearly stated earlier). What's annoying to me and a number of racers is the propensity for one hit wonder trophy hunters. They might help fill the enty list and therefore add to the coffers of the promoting club but they aren't contributing to our sport in a holistic way. They come, they ride, they win, they go home and they're often never seen again. That's what upsets guys like Noel Harker and others who work hard all season, banging elbows in their club races, only to be knocked off in the big meeting that really counts by a hired gun in what may possibly be his only vintage ride ever. It's not just young guns....as I said earlier I've put many an old pro on my bikes but if they didn't show some commitment to vintage racing they didn't get another invitation from me. To their credit most of them ended up with their own bikes, even notoriously spendthrift Pelle Granquist ::). We need to encourage young riders to become involved in the sport on a permanent basis, not on a once a year big meeting sense. The once a year hired guns do more damage to the sport than good but keen young racers coming in on a permanent basis is the future we all hope for.
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I know its different but the GP's have thier wildcard riders....
as our sport grows its continually evolving...
I like the hired guns young or old...
Its all exposure for our sport whether that be through word of mouth or bragging from a young hired VMX gun at a
local modern track...
Older guys introducing thier kids/nieces/nephews/friends or whoever all adds to our sport i reckon...
Let em ride... :)
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Alison, I can tell you that Glen Bell, James Deacon and Dave Armstrong will be competing at the Echo Valley Post Classic Nats along with a few other top guy's from the day, there wont be many or any "kids" that will beat them. ;). It's a great spectacle to watch 500cc 2 strokes being riden flat out...BTW, they wont just be riding 500's. These guy's come to some of our club days. To make our sport grow you need people like this turning up, you wont get anyone to come and watch a bunch of wobblers, beggars cant be choosers. We need everybody....young/old/fast/slow/sponsors.....Hired guns are not new, they have been around for years...we just have to keep them coming back and hopefully to club days.
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I'm not sure that having a young gun turn up for a once a year ride in VMX on a borrowed bike at the Aussie Titles is helping our sport grow? That's what this thread is about.
For every young guy that enters the nationals a couple of old guys don't bother for the same reason.
I think age groups in pre 78 will help for sure...
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I'm not sure that having a young gun turn up for a once a year ride in VMX on a borrowed bike at the Aussie Titles is helping our sport grow? That's what this thread is about.
For every young guy that enters the nationals a couple of old guys don't bother for the same reason.
I think age groups in pre 78 will help for sure...
+1
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A good friend ( Noel Harker, living legend!) who does come on here from time to time had a bit to say regarding the young hired guns that turn up for the titles and just as quickly disappear again.
The later it got on Sunday after the meeting the less coherent on the subject he was. Might have had something to do with the alcohol. He did a mighty fine job of tuning the bar maid as well. ;D
His idea very basically was to have a form of qualifying by making them ride some Vmx meetings in the lead up to the titles. Thought it was a good idea.
Please think your ideas on this subject before hitting the keyboard to put your two cents worth in.
I hate reading dribble that obviously has not had any thought put into it. ???
I personally like the competition and like it more if I can beat them. But thought it worthy of a chat.
I have gone back to the original post so I can give a clean opinion.
First I can't believe Noel was drunk. Are you sure? If he didn't start to sing he wasn't drunk. LOL ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
1. It is clear to me that as many classes as possible need to also include awards (Championships) for age groups. If possible run in the same race. There should not be an extra charge for these classes even if there is separate races.
2. To me Classic MX (with age groups) is like Junior racing, only difference is Juniors want to stay down an age group and CMX would want to go up. Juniors have a rule "age as at the 1st January". Maybe CMX needs one that is "age as at 31st Dec" for the year of the Championships. That way regardless of what date the Championships are everyone moves up at the same time.
3. Pre 78 needs age groups ASAP.
4. Pre 85 and Pre 90 will need them too at some stage.
5. Pre 60, Pre 65 and Pre 70 also need something. After all to the riders who raced these bike when they were new someone under 55 is young. Either awards for each age group (regardless of entry numbers) or have the races as handicap races with the handicap determined by adding the bike and rider's ages together.
Also is it time for a concourse at these meetings. There are a lot of bikes out there that their owners think are too good (nice) to race. Maybe something to get these guys involved.
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I think age groups in pre 78 will help for sure...
This I agree with and this could be extended into the post classic events as well as it may alleviate some of the issues the younger riders bring with them. Although Davey has a very valid point, not too many of these younger/hire riders would beat the likes of King or Bell etc but putting the faster older guys into their own age class might give the young-uns a fair go ;D ;D
A win win for all?
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do you bring in a owner /rider rule? Are the kids hounding the owners of these bikes for a ride or the other way?
quote]
Excluding future talent is surely the death knell.
For sure!!!
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3. Pre 78 needs age groups ASAP.
Absolutely....introduce age groups in pre 78 and watch that division boom.
4. Pre 85 and Pre 90 will need them too at some stage.
See above quote. The removal of age groups had a serious downward effect on VMX in the late 90's. I think our sport has learned a hard lesson from that...."if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
Pre 60, Pre 65 and Pre 70 also need something. After all to the riders who raced these bike when they were new someone under 55 is young. Either awards for each age group (regardless of entry numbers) or have the races as handicap races with the handicap determined by adding the bike and rider's ages together.
Pre 70 is going pretty well but pre 65 and pre 60 could be vastly improved by a further softening of the eligibility criteria. I'm not calling for wholesale changes, just a slight softening of the flow on rules that will make it far easier to find eligible bikes/engines. I was stoked to see 'twenty something' Stacey Heaney riding her dad Des's Triumph Metisse in pre 65. She's the off duty paramedic that attended my cut leg and apparently she's a regular on the big Metisse. If we can get young guys (30-40) interested in these very cool old bikes those classes will stay viable.
Also is it time for a concourse at these meetings. There are a lot of bikes out there that their owners think are too good (nice) to race. Maybe something to get these guys involved.
I've been saying that for twenty years. Bring 'em out and show them off and perhaps cut some parade laps at lunch time, similar to the Triumph display at last weekends Nats.
Back to the original topic......... ;D
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Pre 70 is going pretty well but pre 65 and pre 60 could be vastly improved by a further softening of the eligibility criteria. I'm not calling for wholesale changes, just a slight softening of the flow on rules that will make it far easier to find eligible bikes/engines. I was stoked to see 'twenty something' Stacey Heaney riding her dad Des's Triumph Metisse in pre 65. She's the off duty paramedic that attended my cut leg and apparently she's a regular on the big Metisse. If we can get young guys (30-40) interested in these very cool old bikes those classes will stay viable.
Agreed
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It's pretty simple. Set a criteria 1,2 or 200 prior rides in VMX, check their pointscore, validated by club secretary and have age trophies. First Second Third overall and then age places 1,2,3
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Quote from: firko on Today at 12:06:55 PM
Pre 70 is going pretty well but pre 65 and pre 60 could be vastly improved by a further softening of the eligibility criteria. I'm not calling for wholesale changes, just a slight softening of the flow on rules that will make it far easier to find eligible bikes/engines. I was stoked to see 'twenty something' Stacey Heaney riding her dad Des's Triumph Metisse in pre 65. She's the off duty paramedic that attended my cut leg and apparently she's a regular on the big Metisse. If we can get young guys (30-40) interested in these very cool old bikes those classes will stay viable.
AGREE soften to help get more bikes in those classes
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Back to the original topic......... ;D
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Yes I didn't comment on that part. The so called hired guns add to the meeting. This, it isn't fair to have outside riders come in has been around for ever. Some people think it is unfair when riders from another country come in a win Australian Championships. Gaston Rahier winning three Australian Championships in 1975 was considered by some as unfair. He added to the meeting greatly and improved our riders in leaps and bounds.
Since then and probably before that, riders from the USA have improved our Supercross riders and riders from other countries (NZ, UK and US) have improved our Motocrossers. We now have four riders who will be contesting the World MX Champs next year. One of those riders will be on a works team which is owned by a former F1 World Champion.
What has this got to do with Classic MX. Do you want the best show or a big club day?
Leave the Championships open to anyone with the correct licence. Just also recognise riders in the age groups.
Now if I can just get Todd to race my Maico at Toowoomba. I wouldn't even have to change the number.
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Are we talking of 'limiting age for National races' or 'National competitors must have ridden State events to be eligible'?
You can't restrict on age for many good reasons given above, where would you draw the line, 28, 34, 38? Next you'll want to restrict based on how many joint replacements you've had. It's hard when I (54) have to run against a 22 year old, it's going to be even harder when I'm 70 !!! But that's life, I wouldn't have it any other way, big boost for my ego when I beat them (helps me keep my young girlfriend too).
You can't have age races if you don't have the numbers, it sickens me at Vic roadracing at the moment where 'trophy hunters' get a second place award with only two in the race, back in the day my trophies were won with 60 bikes in the race! All racing must abide by the rule 'minimum 10 competitors or no race'.
I think it would be great if riders had to qualify for National Championships at State Champs, but getting the state bodies to regulate & participate in that would be difficult.
Absolutely LOVE the idea of having a bike show combined with an event, if I couldn't ride anymore I'd love to show my bikes off, I know there are many ex riders out there that feel the same.
Maybe there's a reason to have 'demonstrtion races'? Only need a recreation licence, no sheep stations on the line.
Funny that I don't agree with limiting ages in vmx races but I want to get modern mx age racing off the ground (as per REM in SoCal). Maybe because vmx has smaller fields and modern mx (the future of our sport) is fading-away because many older guys don't want to take the risks to save-face on the track? I am also pushing for riders over 50 in modern mx to be able to run with the 'M' prefix on the their race number denoting 'Master', relieving the pressure to have to make that monster double.
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I am also pushing for riders over 50 in modern mx to be able to run with the 'M' prefix on the their race number denoting 'Master', relieving the pressure to have to make that monster double.
Who is approving the tracks in your state. Unless it is SX there shouldn't be any monster doubles.
The practice of apparently using TRAs to approve things that don't comply with the track standards has to be stopped.
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Sounds smug, but arent the last two Classic Nats almost a blueprint covering the points made (except for the issue raised in this thread by Brad)?
Age groups are already in for Evo and will apply to the Post Classics in 2014
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Age groups are already in for Evo and will apply to the Post Classics in 2014
The age races really ought to allow all era bikes (including the newest era) at each Nationals, not just the youngest.
The age races at the CMXNs include four of the five bike eras (and have a long history behind them).
The age races at the PCMXNs include only one of the three bike eras.
Post split, the rules need to be amended to allow age racing for Pre-90, rather than for Evo.
Arguably, they should also allow age racing for Pre-78 rather than Pre-75, but the Pre-75 bit is the long-established status quo, so requires careful consideration before any changes are made.
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So who are we talking about again?
Let me spell it out. Hired guns. One event at a national level.
So that excludes simmo's champ that is getting involved, ted's champ's who are obviously welcomed with open arms and all other similar stories. Actually add young Lochie Pratt ( Fox) to that list as well. The subject is about ( for example) the 19 year old that turned up on a borrowed bike for the titles and will come back for next years title as he stated ( only?).
I will say I'm happy to try and chase these young guns down and give myself a pat on my back that I can either keep them honest or beat them. Might be a bit different in a couple of years though when I hit the big five O.
I think Noel's idea in my original post is simple and fair .
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Maybe a suggestion could be an all inclusive run what you brung age race like super seniors, over 50 over 60?
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Only one era (Pre75) currently has age classes in CMX. Pre75 had by far the strongest entry at the CMX titles.
I put up for Evo age classes at the time I proposed the split in the belief that it would numerically be the strongest in PCMX.
This may prove to be not so in 2014 PCMX. So then if numbers justify, propose age racing in say Pre85 or whatever.
I should point out that if not for the split there'be no Pre90 or age racing possible or PCMX Championships, unless current classes were dropped or going to four day meetings.
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So who are we talking about again?
Let me spell it out. Hired guns. One event at a national level.
So that excludes simmo's champ that is getting involved, ted's champ's who are obviously welcomed with open arms and all other similar stories. Actually add young Lochie Pratt ( Fox) to that list as well. The subject is about ( for example) the 19 year old that turned up on a borrowed bike for the titles and will come back for next years title as he stated ( only?).
I will say I'm happy to try and chase these young guns down and give myself a pat on my back that I can either keep them honest or beat them. Might be a bit different in a couple of years though when I hit the big five O.
I think Noel's idea in my original post is simple and fair .
What you're proposing is to put some sort of qualifying on entering the Nationals.
TBH, I need to be convinced that this is a real problem, and that the 'solution' won't create more hassles than it solves.
As it stands, the fastest rider wins (basically) - which is exactly what MX is about.
If we start adding in restrictions about rider eligibility, then we detract from the purity of the sport, and we risk a lot of hassles.
I'm not saying that its a bad idea, but I need to be convinced that it improves the sport/event before I can support it.
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Back when the sport was all pre 75 and there were enough entries and enough time to run the classes we had three age groups (under 30, 30-40 and 40-50) running age capacity races in 125, 250 and 500. Only the over sixty class was an all in age group class. I'd love to see that system back in again but admit that we probably can't fit them in anyore. For the first decade of VMX the age capacity classes were the main game with the all in capacity classes seen as secondary. That attitude stemmed from the original VMX concept that racing your peer age group was what it was all about. I think age groups were the main factor in so many coming into the sport in the formative years.
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Maybe we can start a handicap system on Saturday night that involves cans of rum. Well there young lad you went a bit to quick in the first race so you must stay in the impound area until you drink all 18 cans.
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not voicing an opinion but a comment. I like to see the old bikes ridden fast and as they should be - but don't like to race those guys myself :'(. I wouldn't like to see pre entry restrictions as for some of us we don't get to race much because of work committments and decide the Nats or similar is to be our major event for the year - similarly both clubs in WA do not race for points so points being earned as a criteria just aint going to happen there. Thirdly - I am not going to the Nats to just race an age class when that is something I can do back home in WA - going to the Nats - competing as hard as I can (not open for comment there either ;D) in the Championship class is the drawcard - I hope to finish top 10 one year but the more and mroe young guns come in the less likely - so maybe nexts years Nats is my last?
Not a whinge - but maybe for consideration. I luv the Nats I have been to - want to go to more but the more and more it becomes for "sheep stations" the less it is for me - but then that might be where I have to look elsewhere.
I suppose in this incoherent ramble I am saying also - escalate the age racing to Championship status - I can have fun with the other old farts and not worry about the fast young guys eh (and that includes you Brad ;D).
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Dead right Brad
IMO it would be a very hollow victory to be a star rider and only ride one meet to get a trophy
Set a quota of meets and stick to it
VMX is primarily an older guys pursuit. If the reason for not having age racing prizes in all classes is cost, call me and I will gladly kick the tin. 1/2/3 outright and 1/2/3 ages. Fair for all
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this is from my dirt track point of view but if you f k with cmx you do the same to cdt
no 21 races 2 triumps pre60 and a pre75 races his triumphs long track
g robertrs velo metise pre65 and pre60 500 velo roadracer classic bikes
130 new 500 pre 60 goldy and pre65 rgs bikes owner dosent ride them
m jones no 69 rider like my self over 60
j garvey no454 over 50
j imre over 70 australian champ over 70
p lee no 52 pre70 australian chap over 502
just to name a few would not have ridden 4 cdt events this year so are wee to be banned from the titles as well
jim
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this is from my dirt track point of view but if you f k with cmx you do the same to cdt
no 21 races 2 triumps pre60 and a pre75 races his triumphs long track
g robertrs velo metise pre65 and pre60 500 velo roadracer classic bikes
130 new 500 pre 60 goldy and pre65 rgs bikes owner dosent ride them
m jones no 69 rider like my self over 60
j garvey no454 over 50
j imre over 70 australian champ over 70
p lee no 52 pre70 australian chap over 502
just to name a few would not have ridden 4 cdt events this year so are wee to be banned from the titles as well
jim
Jim this is about young guns riding vmx once a year on a borrowed bike for a trophy, it's got nothing to do with old guys riding 1 or 2 dirt tracks a year..
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No ones banned from anything. Brad has put up a point of discussion that comes up after every Nats.
It is a no brainer that if an "anti jockey" (a sailing term) rule were to be considered all these issues would have to be addressed.
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Apart from an obvious "age" difference,
whats the difference between a "young" hired gun and an "age ok" hired gun?
I say,
Let em ride :)
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this is from my dirt track point of view but if you f k with cmx you do the same to cdt
no 21 races 2 triumps pre60 and a pre75 races his triumphs long track
g robertrs velo metise pre65 and pre60 500 velo roadracer classic bikes
130 new 500 pre 60 goldy and pre65 rgs bikes owner dosent ride them
m jones no 69 rider like my self over 60
j garvey no454 over 50
j imre over 70 australian champ over 70
p lee no 52 pre70 australian chap over 502
just to name a few would not have ridden 4 cdt events this year so are wee to be banned from the titles as well
jim
Jim this is about young guns riding vmx once a year on a borrowed bike for a trophy, it's got nothing to do with old guys riding 1 or 2 dirt tracks a year..
John the Commission making the recommendations for possible rule changes is the Classic MX and Classic DT Commission, so they would also have to consider Dirt Track. However they would be better to put it in their minutes separately so it doesn't get accepted by MX but rejected by DT etc.
I remember one time the MX Commission wanted to change the plate colour for 250 MX class from green plate to white plates. It kept getting rejected by the other disciplines, until it was made clear it was for MX/SX only. That took at least two years.
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I feel for the riders who've trained all year to get as fit as they can, spent a shitload on getting the bike just right and raced all season to get that 'racers edge' who get beaten out of the placings by a hired gun riding their Uncle Bobs bike for a one off bit of a giggle. I agree that there's little we can do to stop them but it doesn't seem very fair to me. :-\
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I feel for the riders who've trained all year to get as fit as they can, spent a shitload on getting the bike just right and raced all season to get that 'racers edge' who get beaten out of the placings by a hired gun riding their Uncle Bobs bike for a one off bit of a giggle. I agree that there's little we can do to stop them but it doesn't seem very fair to me. :-\
And that's my point..
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I feel for the riders who've trained all year to get as fit as they can, spent a shitload on getting the bike just right and raced all season to get that 'racers edge' who get beaten out of the placings by a hired gun riding their Uncle Bobs bike for a one off bit of a giggle. I agree that there's little we can do to stop them but it doesn't seem very fair to me. :-\
Why not? You don't deserve the silverware if you're not the fastest.
I ride as hard as I can, and I usually come nowhere (esp at the National level). Do I deserve some sort of prize for not being fast enough?
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A hired gun still isnt garunteed a win.
They still ride the same track on the same day as everyone else in thier race.
They still have to get theold bike to hold together for the duration of the meeting...
Has anyone done the "stats" for this years tittles? To see how many young guns took home the bacon?
Or are we talking about 2% of entrants?
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I feel for the riders who've trained all year to get as fit as they can, spent a shitload on getting the bike just right and raced all season to get that 'racers edge' who get beaten out of the placings by a hired gun riding their Uncle Bobs bike for a one off bit of a giggle. I agree that there's little we can do to stop them but it doesn't seem very fair to me. :-\
Whilst I completely understand what you are saying Firko, I don't see the difference between the "hired gun riding uncle Bob's bike" and the retired A Grader or international hired gun such as Belly or Deakin or one of the King boys from NZ showing up on someones bike and smoking you as well.
I guess the only way out of that sort of issue is to have class racing like they do in modern racing .. you know ... A Grade through to whatever grade it goes to now (C or D?) so that you are competing against others that are close to your level. Of course I am not suggesting we do that at all but that would resolve the problem you mention above.
Me? I just want to ride and do the best I can on the day riding bikes that mean something to me. I don't expect, nor do I receive, any trophies and if I was in the sport for that then I'd be very disappointed .. as would most of us I think.
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A hired gun still isnt garunteed a win.
They still ride the same track on the same day as everyone else in thier race.
They still have to get theold bike to hold together for the duration of the meeting...
Has anyone done the "stats" for this years tittles? To see how many young guns took home the bacon?
Or are we talking about 2% of entrants?
You need to look at the percent of place getters not overall entrants because basically only young guys with a chance of placing entered the titles, that's why this whole debate started.
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A hired gun still isnt garunteed a win.
They still ride the same track on the same day as everyone else in thier race.
They still have to get theold bike to hold together for the duration of the meeting...
Has anyone done the "stats" for this years tittles? To see how many young guns took home the bacon?
Or are we talking about 2% of entrants?
No stats here Vandy but whilst at the presentation, I must admit I did get the feeling that (aside from BVB and the real old guys), most of the top tinware was taken home by young guys riding someone elses bikes. I don't care but it just seemed that way a bit.
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Apart from an obvious "age" difference,
whats the difference between a "young" hired gun and an "age ok" hired gun?
I say,
Let em ride :)
Because its a lot easier to take getting beaten by someone your own age? Ha
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So is it the young guns fault or the person who owns the bike they are riding?.....are we talking about sour grapes because the regular guns got beaten?.....I mean, you gotta be good to win anyway......I love watching bikes go fast no matter who is riding them. They aren't breaking any rules.
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It never ceases to amaze me that I just finish reading a thread where guys are declaring we have too many rules and then the next discussion we’re trying to invent new rules.
I feel for the riders who've trained all year to get as fit as they can, spent a shitload on getting the bike just right and raced all season to get that 'racers edge' who get beaten out of the placings by a hired gun riding their Uncle Bobs bike for a one off bit of a giggle. I agree that there's little we can do to stop them but it doesn't seem very fair to me. :-\
It’s been that way ever since I can remember, you think you have your class sussed but there would always be someone come out of the woodwork that could ride fast but would only ride their local event.
The intent may be to ‘weed’ out the young guns but how do you propose to do that?
How do you distuingish between young guns and young wobblers?
Also I think you will find that most young riders will have an involvement to vintage in one way or another, so what’s wrong with them riding dads or uncles bike and trying to do the family proud?
There is age racing already so isn’t that enough?
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It never ceases to amaze me that I just finish reading a thread where guys are declaring we have too many rules and then the next discussion we’re trying to invent new rules.
I feel for the riders who've trained all year to get as fit as they can, spent a shitload on getting the bike just right and raced all season to get that 'racers edge' who get beaten out of the placings by a hired gun riding their Uncle Bobs bike for a one off bit of a giggle. I agree that there's little we can do to stop them but it doesn't seem very fair to me. :-\
It’s been that way ever since I can remember, you think you have your class sussed but there would always be someone come out of the woodwork that could ride fast but would only ride their local event.
The intent may be to ‘weed’ out the young guns but how do you propose to do that?
How do you distuingish between young guns and young wobblers?
Also I think you will find that most young riders will have an involvement to vintage in one way or another, so what’s wrong with them riding dads or uncles bike and trying to do the family proud?
There is age racing already so isn’t that enough?
You're out of touch Geoff, there is only age groups in pre 75.
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Apart from an obvious "age" difference,
whats the difference between a "young" hired gun and an "age ok" hired gun?
I say,
Let em ride :)
Because its a lot easier to take getting beaten by someone your own age? Ha
LOL .. oh and congrats on 4000 posts John :)
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Yeah maybe, but when it comes to old guys racing each other then it makes very little difference whether they are on a Pre 70 or a Pre 75
The age racing for the post Nats needs to be changed to Pre 85 as it also makes very little difference as to whether they are on a Pre 85 or Evo bike
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I reckon you'd normally stick a "gun" (current) or former gun/pro in in a "pro" class, but if this IS a national title meeting you could hardly have a National Pro title AND a National Clubman title, it's sort of devalue the win IMO. So, would age classes PLUS a Pro class be more fair? Sort of, its hardly a fair fight when its a 54 year old versus a 24 year old A grader is it? Even if the 54 year old is still fairly quick? Apart from that it opens a can of worms doesnt it, like 250 class pre 85 over 30, over 35,over 40 and so on becomes a mess for all involved and expensive in relation to trophys etc, hard question, age classes for sure PLUS a Pro class for all former Pro/A graders is still tuff, I mean the above scenario with a 54year old former Pro/A grader like Belly or similar against someone like Mat Moss ?!? Belly is quick still but i reckon Mossy might just do him on the right bike.
Ideal world, age classes with 5 year breaks PLUS Pro class gets my vote.
Kt
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Apart from an obvious "age" difference,
whats the difference between a "young" hired gun and an "age ok" hired gun?
I say,
Let em ride :)
Because its a lot easier to take getting beaten by someone your own age? Ha
LOL .. oh and congrats on 4000 posts John :)
Wow! I didn't realise I had 4000 arguments in me Simo..thanks for the help in getting me there!
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Apart from an obvious "age" difference,
whats the difference between a "young" hired gun and an "age ok" hired gun?
I say,
Let em ride :)
Because its a lot easier to take getting beaten by someone your own age? Ha
Classic stuff mate...
I get beat by guys "older" than me...
walk a mile in my shoes... :D
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yes pre 85 that means I done need to get 2 nd bike one will do me
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Apart from an obvious "age" difference,
whats the difference between a "young" hired gun and an "age ok" hired gun?
I say,
Let em ride :)
Because its a lot easier to take getting beaten by someone your own age? Ha
LOL .. oh and congrats on 4000 posts John :)
Wow! I didn't realise I had 4000 arguments in me Simo..thanks for the help in getting me there!
Your welcome mate .. but I can't take much of the credit ... thankfully :)
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Again what do you what? The winner to be the best rider bike combination or the best rider bike combination minus those who we don't like because they might beat us.
Like Junior racing there needs to be age groups, but there also needs to be an Open (all ages) Championship in each of the three capacity classes, in each period class, that everyone with the correct licence can race in. When using the word Open I mean open to all ages etc. If there is just one full grid (40 bikes), run it as one race. Score the Championship from those races, but also rescore it in each age group. With transponders it isn't hard to do.
If there is more than one grid, use timed qualifying to get the top forty for the all ages Championship. Then run the age groups in as many different events as needed. Several age groups can be run together but scored separately. it may be worth while considering reducing the number of entries to constitute a Championship class also for the age groups particularly in the over 60s.
Either way I don't think we should restrict it all to just the older riders.
This hired gun thing will become more of a problem in the Post Classic Championships. With the Pre 85 and Pre 90 being a lot closer to the modern bikes than the Classic MX bikes.
Has anyone got three 1989 KXs (125, 250 & 500) for Troy C to use at Toowoomba?
PS while I've been typing this there have been 9 posts and counting
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The intent may be to ‘weed’ out the young guns but how do you propose to do that?
I'm not wishing that, I'm just lamenting how crook it is when an 18 year old once a year trophy hunter on dads bike knocks over a 54 year old who's been racing all year (and for 10 years before that) on his own bike. It's been like it since Rob Watson put Ronnie Dinsdale on his Bultacos back in 1988 so nothing will change except our willingness to whinge about it :D
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If you want to get real picky then maybe 25/30/40/50 year olds shouldn't be allowed to race pre60/pre65/pre70 as they either weren't born or in nappies when those bikes where at there peak and in vogue....how does a 70 year old feel when there are 30/40 or what ever year olds racing "there" class....you don't hear Col Metcher or Bill Watson (75 and 83 years old) whining because the younger guys beat them.....you guy's are getting soft......have a glass of cement. This to me is worse than the RM125B arm bullshit. This is a very selfish argument.
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You either have recognition of the different ages in all classes or in none.
So let either work towards it for everyone or drop the age groups in the classes that have them.
What is Nathan's record for number of pages?
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18, I think.
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Ronnie Dinsdale in 88-91 on the Bultacos now that was fast and no RMb swingarm either
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I have always considered that VMX concerns vintage and classic motorcycles.
Likewise it concerns vintage and veteren riders.
Not necessarily a vintage/classic motorcycle piloted by a vintage classic or even super senior.
Good to see an eligible machine ridden to the best of its capability.
Good to see a (rider age) specific rider showing his ability.
It's probably time that (riders)age groups was relevent to pre '85 bikes.
I dont think we need to weed out the 'young guns' and make MORE rules.
cheers pancho
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18, I think.
Come on everyone only twelve more pages to go.
While we're at it we need a Pre 90 class for Juniors on 80/85cc machines. VMX is and should be a family sport.
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I have always considered that VMX concerns vintage and classic motorcycles.
Likewise it concerns vintage and veteren riders.
Not necessarily a vintage/classic motorcycle piloted by a vintage classic or even super senior.
Good to see an eligible machine ridden to the best of its capability.
Good to see a (rider age) specific rider showing his ability.
It's probably time that (riders)age groups was relevent to pre '85 bikes.
I dont think we need to weed out the 'young guns' and make MORE rules.
cheers pancho
Hear, Hear !!!
Foss
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Maybe we need to change some names?
Instead of "Classic MX National Titles", it should be the "Classic MX Titles for People Who Are Old and/or Slow Enough, and/or Have Rebuilt Their Own Vintage Bike"?
Fastest rider wins. It's what MX is (and has always been) about.
We already have "sheltered workshops" in the form of capacity classes, and eras, and rider age classes within some of those eras. And VMX is its own sheltered workshop to begin with.
But that's not enough? And we need to create another layer of protection? Presumably so everyone can win a prize?
Maybe we need certificates of merit and champagne spraying for every rider after every lap they complete? :P
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I remember when my boys started BMX racing, the kids were getting trophies back to last place!
Were these nut cases trying to kill the sport! A lot of the kids got their trophy, and decided 'been there done that'.
The trophy sellers made a mint! For a while!
cheers.
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Maybe we need certificates of merit and champagne spraying for every rider after every lap they complete? :P
We need something like that for the Harrow Vinduro ;D
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there you go - you don't ride a class if you weren't there!
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Maybe we need certificates of merit and champagne spraying for every rider after every lap they complete? :P
We need something like that for the Harrow Vinduro ;D
That'd be good Geoff......but you'll still miss out!
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I'm with Punchy & Foss.
Surely this has to be the fastest growing topic in this forums history?
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They maybe young and super fit, but we are all riding the same era bike. It doesn't really phase me if I get beaten by a 20 YO riding in the same class as me ..... but if I get lapped in a 5 lap event I may change my mind ;) on the subject.
Let them ride.
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there you go - you don't ride a class if you weren't there!
Well that's me out of the classic nats.
I'm with Punchy & Foss.
Surely this has to be the fastest growing topic in this forums history?
Would that mean that there is indeed an issue to address?
I still agree with the idea of a young bloke say under thirty should attend two, three or four meetings to qualify. And that's the only qualification Noel suggested which would be good for the sport. The ones that stated they like to watch old bikes go fast get to see it a few more times during the year and uncle/ dad gets to be proud of his son a few more times. Huge rule change? Of course not but let's start talking about things that aren't even relevant....
I certainly won't be pushing for it as I don't really care. I still think Noel's point has merit.
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I don't think anyone has a problem with the young blokes or girls who race Classic regularly in WA brook lawson , Kris lindgren, Sarah, Rob Dillon and Ben Melvin are all regular members at our meetings and 3 competed at this yrs nats.
It's the guys they bring in who actually know nothing of the sport or bikes, but must admit are damn quick, that make me shake my head. The guy Jones at crystal brook was super quick and won his events, but if i'm correct when asked about the bikes he rode knew absolutely nothing about them, was just a hired gun. That I find disrepectful to the sport we're involved in.
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Brad ..... to qualify would that be at club meetings being social rides or would it be points rounds ??
If it's points rounds we have gone full circle.
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I'll admit I haven't read all 7 pages, Pancho, Fossil & I are all paid up members of the DTU. It sounds like a great idea to me to have anyone under 30, " Qualify " for a title meeting.
Leon is on the right track.
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I don't think anyone has a problem with the young blokes or girls who race Classic regularly in WA brook lawson , Kris lindgren, Sarah, Rob Dillon and Ben Melvin are all regular members at our meetings and 3 competed at this yrs nats.
It's the guys they bring in who actually know nothing of the sport or bikes, but must admit are damn quick, that make me shake my head. The guy Jones at crystal brook was super quick and won his events, but if i'm correct when asked about the bikes he rode knew absolutely nothing about them, was just a hired gun. That I find disrepectful to the sport we're involved in.
That's it in a nutshell..
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I don't think anyone has a problem with the young blokes or girls who race Classic regularly in WA brook lawson , Kris lindgren, Sarah, Rob Dillon and Ben Melvin are all regular members at our meetings and 3 competed at this yrs nats.
It's the guys they bring in who actually know nothing of the sport or bikes, but must admit are damn quick, that make me shake my head. The guy Jones at crystal brook was super quick and won his events, but if i'm correct when asked about the bikes he rode knew absolutely nothing about them, was just a hired gun. That I find disrepectful to the sport we're involved in.
That's it in a nutshell..
Are we the only sport to consider this important?
I can only imagine the amount of magazine/forum/Facebook space that would go to the modern MX rider who turned up to a his first ever road race meeting and won an Aussie title. If they then turned around and admitted that they didn't even anything about the bike they were riding, they'd be a household name within a week.
But the world of VMX is the opposite?!
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Brad ..... to qualify would that be at club meetings being social rides or would it be points rounds ??
If it's points rounds we have gone full circle.
Just turn up and ride in my opinion. Get out there and be part of the scene. God knows, you might like it... ;)
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Really making riders qualify for the Championships would be to difficult.
Does it only apply to riders under 30. There are still some very quick 35, 40 and 45 year olds out there. How do you write a rule for it that allows a way out for extreme circumstances. Do you leave it up to someone to make that decision. With things like this you need rules that are cut a dried.
As I said before, in my opinion either all classes have age groups or no classes have age groups.
Age groups for Pre 85 and Pre 90 would only need to go to 55 and 50 respectively. A rider who was twenty years old in 82 and was racing Pre 85s back when they were new would be 51 now. Similarly for Pre 90, 46 now.
If you were to have some form of qualification it would have to be across the board.
Do we really want that?????
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Brad, what have you done. ;)
There is a serious point that is being missed, take Pre78 as an example.
The base bike is now 36+ years old. In those 30 odd years suspension technology has jumped ahead 10 fold (or more) yet outwardly the bike looks just like it did back in the day. Engine tuning has also followed and no doubt the HP and torque is up on what they were able to achieve back in the day. We fit up the latest stainless steel spokes to Excell rims that shares duties with people like Dungey, Reed & Vilopoto yet we leave the shitty cast alloy or sometimes magnesium hubs that have done 30 plus years of work on the bike. We then bolt all this bling and HP into a frame that we have no idea of what condition it's in other then we blasted it and gave it a powder coat.
As much as the technology has moved forward so have the bag of skills that riders use. Seat bouncing to clear jumps, scrubbing to shed speed on the face of a jump, panicking revving to bring a front end up mid flight, braking mid flight to drop the nose, etc are now common place.
I have watched young "A" grade riders on the old bikes and marvel at the speed and lap times but having this terrible gut feeling that the next landing will see a frame snap in half or a hub dissenter-grate.
A one time guest or hired rider in a court of law could be seen as a employee and thus the employer could (and would be) liable for an injury claim if the equipment was deemed to be defective, more so where the employer hadn't taken the necessary steps and utilisation of available technologies to ensure the equipment was safe or fit for the intended purpose.
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Anything is possible if you are prepared to put the time and effort in.
If somebody would care to put a petition together calling for a minimum 4 Club Events participation between National Events to become eligible for a National Title I would gladly sign it. It won't worry our kids at Heaven, they ride double that, but it may just stop the one offer.
I understand that 40/50/60 etc year old guys would not have to adhere to this.
I once tried to enter Clint Debner on a 1981 YZ 465 in the Pre 90 class in the first MR VMX at Barleigh Ranch to howls of, OH no a former Yamaha factory rider, Oh Faaark a former Kid motocross, Are you sure he is over 30. Funny now that we advertise our big events with names like Glenn Bell and the King brothers.
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Opinions are like ar$ES, everyone's got one,
And you are entitled to voice it,
This is glass half full
Glass half empty mentality,
Chad Reed is nearly 32,
I sponsored Chad when he was fifteen,
I have stashed the RM125 to restore for him to ride one day,
Jay Foreman has his SX winning 250,
Who doesn't want to see him ride them?
Beatle rode MR VMX who didn't want him or Gilesy there?
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Is part of the problem that we want the National Titles to be won be a club level rider?
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Is part of the problem that we want the National Titles to be won be a club level rider?
Why is everyone missing the point here?
The discussion is about young guys who are not normally into vmx turning up to a national in a one off appearance on a borrowed bike in an attempt to win a title..
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Opinions are like ar$ES, everyone's got one,
And you are entitled to voice it,
This is glass half full
Glass half empty mentality,
Chad Reed is nearly 32,
I sponsored Chad when he was fifteen,
I have stashed the RM125 to restore for him to ride one day,
Jay Foreman has his SX winning 250,
Who doesn't want to see him ride them?
Beatle rode MR VMX who didn't want him or Gilesy there?
This topic is about young guys cherry picking VMX for a trophy.. Those guys aren't young
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Johnny when your 55
32 is young
My son was born in 1984 he has a 1984 RM125/250/500
If he fronts to a VMX Title is he a Hired Gun??
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Is part of the problem that we want the National Titles to be won be a club level rider?
Why is everyone missing the point here?
The discussion is about young guys who are not normally into vmx turning up to a national in a one off appearance on a borrowed bike in an attempt to win a title..
Why do we care?
Does any other sport care?
Why are old guys who are not normally into vmx turning up to a national in a one off appearance on a borrowed bike in an attempt to win a title not a problem?
You haven't made a case for why the 'young, hired guns' are a problem.
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Johnny when your 55
32 is young
My son was born in 1984 he has a 1984 RM125/250/500
If he fronts to a VMX Title is he a Hired Gun??
Graeme we are basically talking about the 16-29yo guys that don't have an interest in owning a vintage bike and just turn up at the Nats trophy hunting..
You've said your son has 3 bikes and I'm sure he'll want to ride them more than once a year..
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Is part of the problem that we want the National Titles to be won be a club level rider?
Why is everyone missing the point here?
The discussion is about young guys who are not normally into vmx turning up to a national in a one off appearance on a borrowed bike in an attempt to win a title..
Why do we care?
Does any other sport care?
Why are old guys who are not normally into vmx turning up to a national in a one off appearance on a borrowed bike in an attempt to win a title not a problem?
You haven't made a case for why the 'young, hired guns' are a problem.
Age is already a handicap for the old guy..
Most other sports attracting young and old competitors have age groups, swimming, running, cycling and then you have the Masters Games which is all sports and all with age groups..
If you don't think there's anything wrong with the young hired gun then so be it.. we all have differing opinions
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Age is already a handicap for the old guy..
Most other sports attracting young and old competitors have age groups, swimming, running, cycling and then you have the Masters Games which is all sports and all with age groups..
Right.
So surely the real answer is along the lines of:
Making age categories for the older blokes who cannot compete with the younger riders, rather than making more rules that only skirt around the actual problem?
There's still not a case for why the young/hired guns riding at the Nats are a problem for the sport. Currently, the fastest rider wins the outright title - sounds pretty well spot-on to me.
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Age is already a handicap for the old guy..
Most other sports attracting young and old competitors have age groups, swimming, running, cycling and then you have the Masters Games which is all sports and all with age groups..
Right.
So surely the real answer is along the lines of:
Making age categories for the older blokes who cannot compete with the younger riders, rather than making more rules that only skirt around the actual problem?
There's still not a case for why the young/hired guns riding at the Nats are a problem for the sport. Currently, the fastest rider wins the outright title - sounds pretty well spot-on to me.
I agree with you Nathan .... more age categories might be required in pre 78 and the post classic classes but even that is really just creating a situation that adds cost and complexity to the events.
I can guarantee you that road racing does not have any of this sort of crap ..... if Casey Stoner decides to turn up at the Island Classic on a Clive Wolfenden Honda Four rocket ship, then proceeds to win everything and set lap records then so be it.... the better man won on the day. No crying in your premix required.
I'm going to resist commenting in this thread any further as I am finding it quite frustrating. I think I've made my position clear and I'm confident you can all carry on without my input ;D ;D ;D ;D
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If you want to get real picky then maybe 25/30/40/50 year olds shouldn't be allowed to race pre60/pre65/pre70 as they either weren't born or in nappies when those bikes where at there peak and in vogue....how does a 70 year old feel when there are 30/40 or what ever year olds racing "there" class....you don't hear Col Metcher or Bill Watson (75 and 83 years old) whining because the younger guys beat them.....you guy's are getting soft......have a glass of cement. This to me is worse than the RM125B arm bullshit. This is a very selfish argument.
You're missing the point John.....it's not so much the age thing but the once a year thing.
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Yeah this is going round in circles and getting nowhere, whatever happens happens and I'm happy to be still racing and still be competitive..
I stated my point way back in the first couple of pages and now we're just digging a hole.
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Re: 2013 Australian Post Classic MX Titles
« Reply #349 on: April 08, 2013, 10:52:35 PM »
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Well no camping is the main reason i haven't entered allot will say there's plenty of towns around to get a campsite at but its the in connivance and also there is not the atmosphere. Good atmosphere good race meeting IMO.
Hard to do work on the bike if needed in a caravan park and just general prep is also harder .
The main reason it didn't happen in Tasmania IMO was cost and cost plays big part in it all there are people whom can easily afford it and others that struggle but love to participate but just don't have the funds with all the associated costs of a national event.
And another reason that plays a big part IMO is that most guys in the scene spend allot with club fees, license fees, entry fees, bike prep, race the rounds his vmx club run to come to a national meeting only to have no chance against the ring in on someones bike whom does nothing for the VMX scene all year but can come and blow every one away on a borrowed bike.Winning isn't everything and just to compete at a Nats is a buzz but is makes you wonder is it worth it when this happens .
Re: 2013 Australian Post Classic MX Titles
« Reply #352 on: April 08, 2013, 11:17:34 PM »
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Thank you Senior my own thoughts are to qualify you must have competed in 4 or more rounds in your states clubs vmx competition.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 11:19:58 PM by marshallmech »
Wow i said this before and basically got screamed down amazing .I will leave it at that
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As long as the Aussie title is a one event affair it will be like this ... Forever.
An import US rider at an Aussie national (generally) has no effect on the title as it's a one time party, it just gets washed out across the series results. Throw an age group at it and it will appease most but won't stop a one trick pony.
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Posts: 1013
Re: 2013 Australian Post Classic MX Titles
« Reply #355 on: April 09, 2013, 05:40:24 AM »
This was a reply from 090
I have been to most title events. The most I can remember was three or four at Broadford. You talk as if the events are littered with young guys.
How many title events would you have placed but for the hired guns?
How many title events have you raced?
The fact that the local riders don't want to support what should be a large and great event in their own back yard points the finger squarely at them.
It would be good if we had it up here in Queensland next year. We love to ride up here, not just talk about it.
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Posts: 1013
Re: 2013 Australian Post Classic MX Titles
« Reply #355 on: April 09, 2013, 05:40:24 AM »
This was a reply from 090
I have been to most title events. The most I can remember was three or four at Broadford. You talk as if the events are littered with young guys.
How many title events would you have placed but for the hired guns?
How many title events have you raced?
The fact that the local riders don't want to support what should be a large and great event in their own back yard points the finger squarely at them.
It would be good if we had it up here in Queensland next year. We love to ride up here, not just talk about it.
In relation to reasons why a certain person didn't enter the Canberra nationals.
Now use a quote from this thread of me saying I don't care about the hired guns personally. This thread started with me quoting another racer and me saying he has a point. Noel also entered and raced. It wasn't an excuse NOT to race.
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This minimum 4 club event proposal would be so easy to get over the line.
( 1 ) Simply draft up a petition stating, To be eligible to compete at a National Title you must complete a minimum 4 club rounds between the last Nats and the next one. You e-Mail that to all VMX clubs for their members to sign. I reckon you would get over 500 signatures no problem.
( I am assuming MA can implement this proposal )
( 2 ) You take the petition to MA. You make them aware of the one hit wonders. You explain to them that by introducing this proposal, the 3/4/5 one hit wonders will have to shell out 4 times for day licenses ( filling MA coffers ) and also 4 times for club meets ( aiding affiliated clubs coffers )
In the event that MA say, " What if the one hit wonders say Get Nicked, we ain't coming " you would simply reply " So we lose 3/4/5 riders fees but we will pick up 10/20 regulars fees in the knowledge that they will be competing with like minded people.
5/15 more entries. $$$$$$$ to MA. They are a business. Every business needs to make money.
I understand that the one hit wonders may have full licenses so at the very least it would help the clubs that host their own rounds and the club that host the Nats ( entry fees that is ) The governing body has to see good in that.
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That isn't the way rules are changed. Read your MOMS.
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If you want to get real picky then maybe 25/30/40/50 year olds shouldn't be allowed to race pre60/pre65/pre70 as they either weren't born or in nappies when those bikes where at there peak and in vogue....how does a 70 year old feel when there are 30/40 or what ever year olds racing "there" class....you don't hear Col Metcher or Bill Watson (75 and 83 years old) whining because the younger guys beat them.....you guy's are getting soft......have a glass of cement. This to me is worse than the RM125B arm bullshit. This is a very selfish argument.
You're missing the point John.....it's not so much the age thing but the once a year thing.
We now seem to have two different issues here.
I really don't care about the hired gun anymore because I am getting to old to be competitive in the combined class.
Next year's Post Classic Champs has age groups in the Evo so I'm fine. But in the Classic Champs Pre 78 my other class doesn't have age groups.
As I have said before, either all classes have age groups or none do. Why discriminate?
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That isn't the way rules are changed. Read your MOMS.
I was generalizing FFS
You know, I was once told that I had to produce literature, dated photos, affadavits, wait till they meet and a personal fu..king reference from the Pope to get a little part accepted. BOOM BOOM wrong on all counts ;D
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It's the guys they bring in who actually know nothing of the sport or bikes, but must admit are damn quick, that make me shake my head. The guy Jones at crystal brook was super quick and won his events, but if i'm correct when asked about the bikes he rode knew absolutely nothing about them, was just a hired gun. That I find disrepectful to the sport we're involved in.
Yes, that was hard to watch.
After your state team travels 3000 odd km to watch A Grader's go down by a smoking ex USA modern rider :(
Alison, I can tell you that Glen Bell, James Deacon and Dave Armstrong will be competing at the Echo Valley Post Classic Nats along with a few other top guy's from the day, there wont be many or any "kids" that will beat them. ;). It's a great spectacle to watch 500cc 2 strokes being riden flat out...BTW, they wont just be riding 500's. These guy's come to some of our club days. To make our sport grow you need people like this turning up, you wont get anyone to come and watch a bunch of wobblers, beggars cant be choosers. We need everybody....young/old/fast/slow/sponsors.....Hired guns are not new, they have been around for years...we just have to keep them coming back and hopefully to club days.
Sponsored Riders sounds nicer for the older Legends :D
Yep sure you guys and gals in sunny Qld will put on another top event, but you really must visit us one day (with a sea container full) :) 8)
ps lovin that YZ sponsored bike :-* :)
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Really I think having the hired gun race is fantastic. As an example If the Conondale Classic was the run as the Post Classic Champs and a rule that some riders want was in place.
Here are the riders who would not of been permitted to race.
Darryl King, Shane King, David Armstrong, James Deakin, Andrew Bailey, Glen Bell etc.
For next year's Post Classic Champs it would be great to have all those rider's above and Troy Carroll, Stephen Gall and maybe even Reggie race. While some of these riders may be able to get to some extra meetings do you think they would all have time to do so?
The Championships should be open to everyone. There should also be recognition of the older riders as well by having age groups.
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This minimum 4 club event proposal would be so easy to get over the line.
( 1 ) Simply draft up a petition stating, To be eligible to compete at a National Title you must complete a minimum 4 club rounds between the last Nats and the next one. You e-Mail that to all VMX clubs for their members to sign. I reckon you would get over 500 signatures no problem.
( I am assuming MA can implement this proposal )
( 2 ) You take the petition to MA. You make them aware of the one hit wonders. You explain to them that by introducing this proposal, the 3/4/5 one hit wonders will have to shell out 4 times for day licenses ( filling MA coffers ) and also 4 times for club meets ( aiding affiliated clubs coffers )
In the event that MA say, " What if the one hit wonders say Get Nicked, we ain't coming " you would simply reply " So we lose 3/4/5 riders fees but we will pick up 10/20 regulars fees in the knowledge that they will be competing with like minded people.
5/15 more entries. $$$$$$$ to MA. They are a business. Every business needs to make money.
I understand that the one hit wonders may have full licenses so at the very least it would help the clubs that host their own rounds and the club that host the Nats ( entry fees that is ) The governing body has to see good in that.
This scenario would make my situation a bit expensive.
I have no local VMX clubs or racing. The closest one is probably 3000km away.
I've only attended one nats (Last years) but had to travel nearly 4000km to get there.
I'm no young gun rider, 54 and getting slower but I really did enjoy attending our premier event.
The Nats, or other big event is my yearly or two yearly treat.
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You are not under 30 Brent....
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Must have been nothing on the TV last night to have 10 pages of this going on talk about trying to re invent the wheel and as has been said and buried in the thread
Age groups in all classes problem solved,it's too simple really
#8
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Would be good for pre 78. All in and scored separately.