Hired guns at Aussie titles.

[VMX247]

For once I'm at a loss for words except I will say this ..... there are some in this sport that will do their best to tune it to a standstill and when it's dead and buried will wonder what happened .. why did the early classes die out??

count me in.

do you bring in a owner /rider rule ?

HIRED GUNS - Aust Nats in Toowoomba 2014.What will they say if the likes of Belly,Gunter and Bailey come back for a title ! 

[TM BILL]

The ownership thing would never work , ole mate sells the gun the bike for a dollar on Friday and buys it back on Monday for a dollar.

You will always get a difference of opinion between those who are in the running for a title and those who turn up to make the numbers .

I believe age group racing for all eras could help the situation, if i won an open title i wouldn't want to think i won it because certain licence holders were excluded , open is open to all ,but age groups presents a more level playing field .

As for ex A graders and champs , they would have beaten me in the day so whats the difference.   

[Paul552]

For once I'm at a loss for words except I will say this ..... there are some in this sport that will do their best to tune it to a standstill and when it's dead and buried will wonder what happened .. why did the early classes die out??

Plus one more.

Also the paying extra for every class you enter I'm sure is a club / promoter thing, not from MA

+5

Man polictics

[supersenior 50]

Simmo, re your reply 19 the old classes died out because as Evo, Pre78, and even more so Pre85 came in with Pre90 on the horizon, the pre60 got squeezed out and virtually disappeared. Pre65 was also heading that way.
The split allowed the promoter to make the programn attractive to the older classes, and last year we had a championship Pre60 class for the first time in years. This Nats we had a 50% increase in Pre 60 with guys like Brad , Glen Wollenweber and others buying bikes to compete in that class. We had three Jawas entered. When did you last see one of those at a Nats ? AJS, Ariel, Triumph and BSA 500s were wheeled out. How good is that?
Classic Nats are in a good place, and now its Post Classics turn to shine. Only 5 months to the 2014 Post Classic Nats at Echo Valley and itll be a ripper.

[Ted]

do you bring in a owner /rider rule? Are the kids hounding the owners of these bikes for a ride or the other way?

At Heaven all our kids have their own vintage bikes, some have more than 1.

My nephew competes at Heaven on a 1984 YZ 80 L. He has 2. He is 12. He will be at the Nats when 16.

Another member has a son that has been racing at Heaven since he was 12. He will be at the Nats when 16. He is 13. He will have his dads 250 D, 400 D or 74 Husky to ride

If enough older guys still want a trophy, petition for age racing. Excluding future talent is surely the death knell.

Do Qld VMX clubs cater to juniors?

[Lozza]

For once I'm at a loss for words except I will say this ..... there are some in this sport that will do their best to tune it to a standstill and when it's dead and buried will wonder what happened .. why did the early classes die out??

Way to go Simo  Presumably nobody was forced to ride at gun point and some young bloke must have actualy liked riding the bike to give up a weekend chasing young girls with big bazookas around.

[Nathan S]

The more I read and the more I think, the more I conclude that "hired guns" are inevitable, regardless of the circumstances.
And the more I think that they're not really National titles if we are excluding riders...

Maybe the real answer is more along the lines of awards for age groups, within ALL eras. Not separate age races, maybe just U35/O34/O50 splits within the race. That way the fast old guys are properly recognised, without clogging g the race programme with 500 extra races.

[Simo63]

Simmo, re your reply 19 the old classes died out because as Evo, Pre78, and even more so Pre85 came in with Pre90 on the horizon, the pre60 got squeezed out and virtually disappeared. Pre65 was also heading that way.
The split allowed the promoter to make the programn attractive to the older classes, and last year we had a championship Pre60 class for the first time in years. This Nats we had a 50% increase in Pre 60 with guys like Brad , Glen Wollenweber and others buying bikes to compete in that class. We had three Jawas entered. When did you last see one of those at a Nats ? AJS, Ariel, Triumph and BSA 500s were wheeled out. How good is that?
Classic Nats are in a good place, and now its Post Classics turn to shine. Only 5 months to the 2014 Post Classic Nats at Echo Valley and itll be a ripper.

Thanks Col, I have never seen so many classic bikes in the paddock as I did on the weekend and I loved it.  Those bike are well before my time but I know they are the DNA link that led to the ones I ride today.  I even tried to buy Mainlines BSA project (and only missed it literally by minutes) because I was so inspired by what I saw last weekend.

I am not a long serving member of the VMX community (yet) but I am here for the long haul and hope to be as valulable to the sport one day as you are now.  I will admit I am concerned about the future of our sport hence sponsoring Luke and Jemma on the weekend and I think we need to make sure we don't regulate it to a stand still. 

The event was a great success and I hope it continues to be so.  I also hope the post classic nats are a kick arse winner as well and will start prepping a couple of bikes for that event when my shoulder heals.

As a side note, Luke called me last night and is now actively looking for his own bike ... an Evo CR250 .. around a 1980 model ... I finished that phone call and thought to myself "the seed has been sown .... goal achieved"

[firko]

For once I'm at a loss for words except I will say this ..... there are some in this sport that will do their best to tune it to a standstill and when it's dead and buried will wonder what happened .. why did the early classes die out??

I don't understand that statement. I haven't seen anything written on here that advocates anything other than promoting the early classes. We want and need younger riders and I encourage more of them (as I clearly stated earlier). What's annoying to me and a number of racers is the propensity for one hit wonder trophy hunters. They might help fill the enty list and therefore add to the coffers of the promoting club but they aren't contributing to our sport in a holistic way. They come, they ride, they win, they go home and they're often never seen again. That's what upsets guys like Noel Harker and others who work hard all season, banging elbows in their club races, only to be knocked off in the big meeting that really counts by a hired gun in what may possibly be his only vintage ride ever. It's not just young guns....as I said earlier I've put many an old pro on my bikes but if they didn't show some commitment to vintage racing they didn't get another invitation from me. To their credit most of them ended up with their own bikes, even notoriously spendthrift Pelle Granquist . We need to encourage young riders to become involved in the sport on a permanent basis, not on a once a year big meeting sense. The once a year hired guns do more damage to the sport than good but keen young racers coming in on a permanent basis is the future we all hope for.

[vandy010]

I know its different but the GP's have thier wildcard riders....
as our sport grows its continually evolving...
I like the hired guns young or old...
Its all exposure for our sport whether that be through word of mouth or bragging from a young hired VMX gun at a
local modern track...
Older guys introducing thier kids/nieces/nephews/friends or whoever all adds to our sport i reckon...
Let em ride...

[Davey Crocket]

Alison, I can tell you that Glen Bell, James Deacon and Dave Armstrong will be competing at the Echo Valley Post Classic Nats along with a few other top guy's from the day, there wont be many or any "kids" that will beat them. . It's a great spectacle to watch 500cc 2 strokes being riden flat out...BTW, they wont just be riding 500's. These guy's come to some of our club days. To make our sport grow you need people like this turning up, you wont get anyone to come and watch a bunch of wobblers, beggars cant be choosers. We need everybody....young/old/fast/slow/sponsors.....Hired guns are not new, they have been around for years...we just have to keep them coming back and hopefully to club days.

[JohnnyO]

I'm not sure that having a young gun turn up for a once a year ride in VMX on a borrowed bike at the Aussie Titles is helping our sport grow? That's what this thread is about.
For every young guy that enters the nationals a couple of old guys don't bother for the same reason.
I think age groups in pre 78 will help for sure...

[TM BILL]

I'm not sure that having a young gun turn up for a once a year ride in VMX on a borrowed bike at the Aussie Titles is helping our sport grow? That's what this thread is about.
For every young guy that enters the nationals a couple of old guys don't bother for the same reason.
I think age groups in pre 78 will help for sure...

+1

[KTM47]

A good friend ( Noel Harker, living legend!) who does come on here from time to time had a bit to say regarding the young hired guns that turn up for the titles and just as quickly disappear again.
The later it got on Sunday after the meeting the less coherent on the subject he was. Might have had something to do with the alcohol. He did a mighty fine job of tuning the bar maid as well.
His idea very basically was to have a form of qualifying by making them ride some Vmx meetings in the lead up to the titles. Thought it was a good idea.
Please think your ideas on this subject before hitting the keyboard to put your two cents worth in.
I hate reading dribble that obviously has not had any thought put into it. 
I personally like the competition and like it more if I can beat them. But thought it worthy of a chat.

I have gone back to the original post so I can give a clean opinion.

First I can't believe Noel was drunk. Are you sure? If he didn't start to sing he wasn't drunk. LOL

1. It is clear to me that as many classes as possible need to also include awards (Championships) for age groups. If possible run in the same race. There should not be an extra charge for these classes even if there is separate races.

2. To me Classic MX (with age groups) is like Junior racing, only difference is Juniors want to stay down an age group and CMX would want to go up. Juniors have a rule "age as at the 1st January". Maybe CMX needs one that is "age as at 31st Dec" for the year of the Championships. That way regardless of what date the Championships are everyone moves up at the same time.

3. Pre 78 needs age groups ASAP.

4. Pre 85 and Pre 90 will need them too at some stage.

5. Pre 60, Pre 65 and Pre 70 also need something. After all to the riders who raced these bike when they were new someone under 55 is young. Either awards for each age group (regardless of entry numbers) or have the races as handicap races with the handicap determined by adding the bike and rider's ages together.

Also is it time for a concourse at these meetings. There are a lot of bikes out there that their owners think are too good (nice) to race. Maybe something to get these guys involved.

   

[Simo63]

I think age groups in pre 78 will help for sure...

This I agree with and this could be extended into the post classic events as well as it may alleviate some of the issues the younger riders bring with them.  Although Davey has a very valid point, not too many of these younger/hire riders would beat the likes of King or Bell etc but putting the faster older guys into their own age class might give the young-uns a fair go 

A win win for all?