Vintage Nats - standard of racing and dealing with different levels of talent

[Slakewell]

I believe this might be more a one off problem because of the track design at this years nats. One thing I did notice was the difference in lap times between Peter Horwood and Brad van these guys are normally very close in lap times but at this meeting Peter who is a fearless jumper was 10 sec faster. 

[Slakewell]

FWIW, I also heard from a very good source that the Matterhorn has not been in use for ~ 2 years but was only added for the PCVMX Nats by special request??? The track path has been straight across to the downhill as per the path used by the sidecars 

The Matterhorn as it was in late 80's I see no dangerous jump in this photo

[Nathan S]

You're being too sensitive, John.
It was a big meeting and was the first of its type - the two clubs did a great job overall, and it ran very well. I had a great weekend and am very happy to have been a part of it.

But if anyone said it was a perfect meeting, they'd be kidding themselves.

This discussion is not about sticking the knife into either QVMX or the Toowwomba club. Its about working out exactly what was good and what could be improved.

[KTM47]

FWIW, I also heard from a very good source that the Matterhorn has not been in use for ~ 2 years but was only added for the PCVMX Nats by special request??? The track path has been straight across to the downhill as per the path used by the sidecars 

The Matterhorn as it was in late 80's I see no dangerous jump in this photo

OK lets get the facts straight. This photo is not the Mattahorn. The next steep uphill is the Mattahorn.  This photo is what is called "Skyline".  The club has not been using the Mattahorn because it is high maintenance.  Getting up the Mattahorn was not that hard. 

Please also note!!!!!!  In the early 80s there was a canyon jump at Echo Valley.

As for lappers, if they hold their line the faster riders can pass them without a problem.  The track is at least 7 metres wide. 

Also any suggestion of qualifying from State Championships is a joke.  How many States have proper State Championships for EVO, Pre 85 & Pre 90 and if it is the top five from those States how many riders is that?

Instead of trying to pull this Championship apart, how about being positive and working out who is going to run next year's.

The way I see it is up to Viper or Heaven.  I will support it, but whoever runs it start planning now and everyone be positive.

[Nathan S]

The real issue is that VMX is the only sport I know of that embraces (and needs) punters at its national level.

Do we keep the Nationals "pure" for the genuine contenders, or do we tweak them to suit the punters?
If so, how?

Why does anything need to be changed at all?
More people had difficulty with the track than lapped riders...
I think a bigger issue would be to have someone switched on to inspect tracks used for state and national titles before the event and guide the track curator to how it needs to be prepped to suit vmx bikes

This sequence area few of many great photos taken by Perry Scott (and harvested from his FB album) - a great sequence of an unfortunate event. I make no judgement of either rider - at various times, I have gone close to being in the same position as both riders here.
Maybe it's a real problem, or maybe it's just something that comes with the territory. But if we don't think and talk about it, then we'll never know.

It ended the day's racing, and one rider's weekend.

[Davey Crocket]

That accident was not the tracks fault....that was 2 riders farking up.

[JohnnyO]

Davey Crocket call me a soft c#%k all you like but I rode 9 races and won 2 titles as you know but I didn't like the 2 new step ups and neither did plenty of other people i spoke to. I loved the track 3 weeks ago and it didnt need to be changed.
I had yesterday off work because my back and neck were so sore from coming up short on the 2nd step up and obviously I'm not the only one!
At 53 I don't need to be taking un necessary risks on a vintage bike where I could end up injured..
Davey and Robo I've brought up issues about tracks before but no one seems interested in listening.. At least on social media people take notice!
I'll gladly help on track design and safety but am not in a position to take time off work..
You guys ran a fantastic event and we applaud you for that so don't take my criticism the wrong way!!

[Simo63]

You're being too sensitive, John.
It was a big meeting and was the first of its type - the two clubs did a great job overall, and it ran very well. I had a great weekend and am very happy to have been a part of it.

But if anyone said it was a perfect meeting, they'd be kidding themselves.

This discussion is not about sticking the knife into either QVMX or the Toowwomba club. Its about working out exactly what was good and what could be improved.

Absolutely spot on Nathan.  It's all about debriefing and how to make it better so we see it continue into the future.

[John Orchard]

You're being too sensitive, John.
It was a big meeting and was the first of its type - the two clubs did a great job overall, and it ran very well. I had a great weekend and am very happy to have been a part of it.

But if anyone said it was a perfect meeting, they'd be kidding themselves.

This discussion is not about sticking the knife into either QVMX or the Toowwomba club. Its about working out exactly what was good and what could be improved.

Absolutely spot on Nathan.  It's all about debriefing and how to make it better so we see it continue into the future.

Agreed

[Nathan S]

OK, I'll get off the fence now.

Positives:
The event ran very smoothly all weekend, with absolutely minimal delays.
1. QVMX clearly understands how VMX works and came up with a good, workable programme within MA's structure.
2. All of the officials seemed pleasant and helpful.
3. The venue was fantastic, with plenty of room for camping and pit areas. Clean, non-stinky toilets and hot showers were greatly appreciated.
4. The track was good - the prep was excellent, considering the external factors that restricted the ability to water it on Saturday night.
5. The programme was clear and easy to follow for riders and spectators alike.
6. Having commentary was good, including the little history bits between races.

Things that stopped the meeting being perfect:
7. MA's structure needs work (age racing for Evo only is dumb).
8. The track was a bit too much for the target market. Not "OMG, this is stupid", but it definitely would have made more riders happier if it had been toned down a bit.
9. A timetable in the programme would have been a huge help.
10. Some aspects of scrutiny were a bit wobbly. The "all your riding gear" rule was a bit odd, and other bits were enforced inconsistently - there were three bikes that weren't quite carry-over models but only one of them was knocked back...

#7 is obviously out of the organisers' control, so they actually deserve credit rather than criticism for the way they made it work.
#9 is no biggie - just a small irritiation.
#10 wasn't a drama, although it was probably fortunate that the two bikes that weren't right, were backmarkers. The sport of VMX desperately needs some leadership from MA/the commission on this topic - we need a much clearer line in the sand about what is acceptable and what isn't.

That leaves #9 as the main point of discussion, IMHO.
Simo63 and KJS222 have almost perfectly summed up my opinion. The track was good, but could have been brilliant with only a few tweaks.

I'd also offer as a comment (not a negative or a positive) that the Matterhorn adds nothing to the track. It's basically a gimmick IMHO - no real opportunity for passing, and its neither particularly interesting or fun.

[Nathan S]

That accident was not the tracks fault....that was 2 riders farking up.

I put that up because it demonstrated that the difference in rider speed can be a real issue.
That wasn't related to the track.

[EML]

Haven't had time to read all this but I might dare to suggest that the up hill "double" headed to the top of the track was added to slow some riders before the big down hill section.
For the sidecars this was a real bugger as it slowed our pace up the hardest haul on the circuit and made us all look shit.
The only team to clear it was our leading outfit of Jamie McMurdo and Wayne Hollaway, it did Waynes knee in and put them out of the whole week-end....so no more bitching....BITCHES.
THE TRACK WAS FANTASTIC as was the whole weekend.

[KTM47]

That accident was not the tracks fault....that was 2 riders farking up.

Sorry John this accident was only one riders fault.  Clearly No 32 had got a bad start or something.  He came past me very close to me and was then just in front of me.  Derek did not do anything wrong.  The other rider ran into the back of him. 

[Graeme M]

Hopefully people will take a step back and think a little before posting. I said earlier this is not about throwing insults or petty criticism. As far as I can see as someone who wasn't there, the clubs involved did a great job and the event went very well.

The things that do seem to stand out is the actual style of track, and the difference in rider speed/ability. Now, these are matters of broader import than just Echo Valley or the 2014 PC titles.

I think from what's been said, the best approach to the difference in skills/speed is to ensure marshalls are properly briefed, that riders understand their responsibility (after all, if you are slow, you know you are slow), and perhaps the blue flag idea.

As far as tracks go, I do think that mixing the desires of 30 year olds on Pre 90 bikes with 50 year olds on 1980 model bikes is a bit tricky. The best answer here is to back off the degree of difficulty as it means a broader spread of riders will be happy. After all, it is vintage racing so we need to encourage as many riders as possible. Tracks do NOT need to be modern in design so that we have something as challenging as a modern MX Nats round or similar.

I accept it's the Aussie Championships, but really, it's not THE championships. It's a niche fringe to a somewhat fringe sport. Far better to focus on the needs of the majority. The fast guys will still win, but the average Joe will be much happy and vote with his feet and wallet next time.

[Graeme M]

Now, bear in mind this thread was started to discuss some of the issues raised earlier on a more general level. It is NOT meant to be about the 2014 PC titles themselves. So, let's keep the discussion at that level, if any more discussion is needed.

I am also gonna go back through the thread and delete the more ummm... 'inappropriate' posts. That is according to my take on what I reckon is inappropriate, so if it's your post I delete don't complain to me please. I moderate as I think is best.