Author Topic: Vintage Nats - standard of racing and dealing with different levels of talent  (Read 27480 times)

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Offline Graeme M

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I noticed some comment on the 2014 PC thread about the question of speed of competitors, and also problems with lappers.

My view is that as the classes in 'VMX' change to include later classes and younger riders, we have a big disparity in outright speed. Mix that in with more modern tracks and the risk level increases.

So, how do we deal with that? And what other problems can this change in the demographic and performance bring? What are your thoughts around that?

I reckon more attention to this at riders briefing, and maybe the passing flag idea.

Over to you.

Offline Slakewell

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Not knowing that they made double jumps at Towoomba ( why for F*ucks sake ) Passing or lapping in doubles is dangerous at best. Dont use tracks with large blind jumps for the Nats would be one answer.
I really thought the whole point of having it at Towoomba was it was one of the last great NATURAL tracks left. As I dont know the details I should not comment further.
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Offline pokey

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 The flag idea sounds like a good one and it is working for other sporting bodies.
 if different class riders are participating in the one race  (to make the numbers) then it should be emphasised to watch for the blue flag and ride accordingly. this should  work for the guys at the pointy end and the guys who just want to circulate. yes someone will miss a faster rider behind them but hell,  this isn't a cotton wool sport and all riders  need to be  able to handle a situation if and when it arises. don't forget to have fun and finish the day with a smile.
 


Offline John Orchard

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I thought 'doubles' were even banned in modern mx, should NEVER be at vintage event !!!  We just had a kid get hurt at Broadford on the weekend attempting a double, it'll be gone for our next ride day.
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Offline JohnnyO

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Not knowing that they made double jumps at Towoomba ( why for F*ucks sake ) Passing or lapping in doubles is dangerous at best. Dont use tracks with large blind jumps for the Nats would be one answer.
I really thought the whole point of having it at Towoomba was it was one of the last great NATURAL tracks left. As I dont know the details I should not comment further.
That's exactly the question we were asking.. Why?
The week before the race 2 uphill doubles were added and despite complaints from some of us they were left in.
Less than half the competitors could clear one of them and the landing was extremely harsh when you had a crack and came up short! It was heart in mouth every lap on an Evo bike or any 125.
If you were running up the pointy end you HAD to have a crack every lap or you'd be passed.
At the end of the day the majority of us are old guys doing this for fun..


Offline smed

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[/quote]
The week before the race 2 uphill doubles were added
[/quote]

That's forking crazy,what did they think it was a round of the MX Nationals :o

On the subject of lappers I would like to think that if two riders were battling for the lead & come up against a lapper on a tricky section of the track they would back off a bit & hold there positions till safely past then go no holds barred, but then racers will be racers ;)

Offline Nathan S

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The Echo Valley track has a lot of history, but is a thoroughly modern track.
If the Classic Nats had been run there, on that track, there would have been lynchings. But I thought half the point of seperating the Pre-78 and the Evo+ Nationals was that the later era event could afford to be less fussy about their choice of tracks.

FWIW (before anyone gets wound up), Toowoomba as it was presented on the weekend:

1. There was only one "double jump", and it was tiny (between the first and second corners). Really it was a pair of whoops that 95% of riders could clear every lap, and never seemed to cause anyone any hassles.

2. There were three step-up jumps, which at least two of them could be cleared by a good rider on an Evo125. I'd guess that about half the field were clearing them most of the time. The third was a non-event - failure to clear it, it did nothing worse than slow your entry to the next corner.
There was a fourth set that was bypassed for this event.

3. There was a set of four rollers (open whoops).

4. There were five table top jumps. I saw all of them cleared at various times, but very few riders could clear them all, consistently.
I'd say that about half the field weren't clearing any of them.
All of the tops were smooth and even.

5. There were four single jumps. Three of these were completely unremarkable.
The fourth was sort of like a double jump in that it had a bit of a gap behind it. I don't believe it qualifies for the MA definition of a "double jump".
 Most people could clear it as a double without any drama.
There were two or three riders who could jump to the far lump, and turn it into a triple jump, but it was entirely optional...



The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Simo63

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That's exactly the question we were asking.. Why?
The week before the race 2 uphill doubles were added and despite complaints from some of us they were left in.
Less than half the competitors could clear one of them and the landing was extremely harsh when you had a crack and came up short! It was heart in mouth every lap on an Evo bike or any 125.
If you were running up the pointy end you HAD to have a crack every lap or you'd be passed.
At the end of the day the majority of us are old guys doing this for fun..

Again I want to say I had a ball and state the event was one of the best VMX events I have ever attended.  Like most, I was challenged by the track however I have to agree with John here 100% .. the 2 sets of doubles were just ridiculously difficult for any of the 125's, most evo bikes and about 70% of the riders.  The first time I cleared the first uphill one on my 89 CR 250, I could hear my own "yahoo" on my Go Pro.  I'm sure the Marshalls and any spectators close enough heard it as well.  Why? because the time before I nose dived into it and the time before that I almost flipped it trying to reach it.  I was watching how others were clearing it during pre 85 125 class when the leader Derrick Redding flipped it himself and put himself out for the rest of the weekend .. exactly as I almost did.  The thing was, if you cleared it, you would be 5 seconds a lap faster (feels like an eternity) so there was just no way you couldn't have a crack at it .... well that's how I think anyway.  I noted many just rolled it and didn't try so maybe it was just me.

I never cleared the second uphill one (after the matterhorn downhill) on any of my bikes ... not for lack of trying and it genuinely scares me watching my footage to see how hard I was bottoming out.  And I also had the (dis)pleasure to see Deaks crash on that jump during Saturdays practice ... and still be laying on the track when I came around again the next lap!!!

My 2 cents .. be interested to hear others thoughts
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 08:55:06 PM by Simo63 »

Simo63

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The Echo Valley track has a lot of history, but is a thoroughly modern track.
If the Classic Nats had been run there, on that track, there would have been lynchings. But I thought half the point of seperating the Pre-78 and the Evo+ Nationals was that the later era event could afford to be less fussy about their choice of tracks.


Nathan, the QVMX club ran a club round on the Toowoomba track in Sept of last year. At that event I rode my pre 75 CZ400.  Yes the track was challenging as it was constructed on that day but at no time did I ever feel the track was dangerous for the class of bike I was riding.  And at no time during that meeting did I (or other competitors as far as I know) damage a bike attempting to clear double jumps because they weren't there.  Unfortunately that was not the case this time.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 09:52:56 PM by Simo63 »

Offline Mick D

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I noticed some comment on the 2014 PC thread about the question of speed of competitors, and also problems with lappers.

My view is that as the classes in 'VMX' change to include later classes and younger riders, we have a big disparity in outright speed. Mix that in with more modern tracks and the risk level increases.

So, how do we deal with that? And what other problems can this change in the demographic and performance bring? What are your thoughts around that?

Age races??
lets face it, one day a Rooster, next day a feather duster ::) and don't think it wont come for a sixteen year old, all he or she will need to do for qualification is live long enough, good luck, I have known a lot who haven't.
"light weight, and it works great"  :)

Offline JohnnyO

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2. There were three step-up jumps, which at least two of them could be cleared by a good rider on an Evo125. I'd guess that about half the field were clearing them most of the time. The third was a non-event - failure to clear it, it did nothing worse than slow your entry to the next corner.
There was a fourth set that was bypassed for this event.
Step ups/doubles.. call them what you will.
The first 2 were added the week before the event and the 4th is a new section still under construction.

Offline PEZBerq

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We race on motocross tracks not single track enduro loops. The fast guys can pass with ease and if they follow the lines of a slow guy and simply yell at them to move then they are both fast and stupid....or is that stupidly fast  :o
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Offline Slakewell

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I raced this track during the 80's and early 90's it was always one of the best tracks I have ever raced.
I have to add just from frustration why would you F*ck with such a great track that everyone loved to race at.
90% was natural and the other bits just needed a touch. If someone told me that the local who control it are run by mini bike parents I would not be shocked as they are normally the only ones this stupid
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Offline JohnnyO

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I raced this track during the 80's and early 90's it was always one of the best tracks I have ever raced.
I have to add just from frustration why would you F*ck with such a great track that everyone loved to race at.
90% was natural and the other bits just needed a touch. If someone told me that the local who control it are run by mini bike parents I would not be shocked as they are normally the only ones this stupid
You hit the nail on the head..
I've raced Echo Valley in the 70's 80's 90's 2000's and 2010's and its changed a LOT in recent years..!

Offline JohnnyO

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My mate Derrick Redding leading the first pre 85 125 race when he misjudged the first uphill step up
This put him out for the rest of the weekend..