OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Competition => Topic started by: Ji Gantor on September 02, 2009, 08:39:11 pm
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When we were at CD6 a fellow was asked to speak at one of the riders briefing.
He promoted a tri series next year that would see races in Victoria, NSW and Queensland.
Does anyone have any more details when, where, who, and how this will work.
Ji
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Not wanting to sound negative, but here we are in September 2009 and there is nothing yet organised, so it's a fair bet that there wont be anything in 2010. If there was to be such a thing there is a whole bunch of hurdels that would need to be overcome, the least being class a National class structure and a robust set of GCR's.
My opinion is that in real terms Australia is to big of a land mass and to small of a rider base to make this successfull. The sheer economics of it all would dictate this.
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Sounds like an AWESOME idea.
Reminds me of the Thumper Nats series which was basically a Tri-State series for many years untill they ventured accros to Mannum S.A. in the later stages.
Just look how big that was, at Geelong they use to have a double row start approx 60 to 80 riders!!!!
This series has the potential to be HUGE.
Lets make it happen.
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Simon Healy and Magoo are the one's to contact. :)
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I've got my doubts about this ever getting off the ground for a number of reasons.
The first is the "tyranny of distance". For a 3 way series to be really successful you'd need a strong entry level from all three states. With the current uncertainty of the economy and the willingness of racers to attend the Nats and CD7 there are only so many trips a working class bloke can fit in both financially and timewise. I'm sure this is one of the reasons for the less than satisfactory entry level for the Dirt Track Nats. The number of big meetings clustered together withing a three month period guarantees that one or more will suffer entry wise. The Tri Series is a great idea but if it's successful, another event must invariably suffer. In my opinion the 'big event' quota for our sport is full up right now.
The second and most obvious obstacle a Tri Series needs to overcome is finding someone to actually organise the show. To convert a great idea into a living, breathing, proper series takes a lot of dedication and time. The 'great idea' needs three coordinators and one overall 'team leader' that can deal with officialdom, sponsorship proposals, transport logistics and the myriad of petty stuff involved with the coordination of such an event and be prepared to be on the phone working on the series on a daily basis. It needs someone who can dedicate 90% of their free time to the series and have the coordination skills to solve the many problems that will invariably arise.
Good ideas come along all the time (I'm as guilty as anyone for occasionally promoting a 'good idea' without thinking it fully out)but they often fall down because for anything to work you need leadership and support. Past history has shown that if either of these facets start to waver the event will fail. It's a hard call but sadly it's so very true.
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Well I can speak for QLD and say we are keen to get it going. I have put a proposal to the QVMX and we are keen as a club to run with it. I would sponsor the QLD leg via my Wiltec business and have stuck up my hand to help organise from this end. I have had talks with people from Echo Valley re their venue and had good feedback or it could also be held at a new MAQ complex about to come on line in SEQ.
I agree it will be hard to get off the ground but all things start small and work their way up in size if people become involved and support it.
It is (the series) designed to attract new people to the sport that are interested in the 80's error of racing and from the feedback of people on this forum I am sure that could be achieved.
People interested can contact me via the forum on PM or my company address at [email protected] so we can get idea's on the go and mover forward.
Our plan was always to have in the last half of next year (July through November) so time is still on our side specially with the nationals being early year and depending on the CD7 timing.
Shane
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Hi Shane,
If you need any help I am at your call.
Thanks for all the help on riding big bores last Saturday.
Next time I am down Brendale way I will stop in and have a chat.
I hope to see you at Coles Creek.
Ji
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If there was a Tri-State 3 round series, (that has been bandied about for some years) sadly the Queensland event would be 75% Queenslanders, 15% New South Welshman and 5% Victorians/South Aussies. A NSW event would be 33% Queenslanders, 33% New South Welshman and 33% Victorians/South Aussies. A Victorian event 5% Queenslanders, 15% New South Welshman and 75% Victorians/South Aussies. I am basing this on the Classic Dirt attendance so it might be a bit skewed, but it’s all we have got for the moment.
It would end up being something akin to an Aussie title event structured and run at a state/club level, would that work, I doubt it. Is everyone 100% confident & comfortable that there respective state titles are robust enough to run side by side with Classic Dirt, A National Title event, the various MA structured events like the Broadford Bike Bonanza and a Tri-State series?
There’s 52 weekends in a year. You loose at least of 16 of those to the stinking hot summers that we have. So 35 odd weekends without considering the National and State long weekends and you don’t get a lot to work with. Given that most states have other competitions that run side by side that is frequented by a % of riders common to each event you have to be careful that you don’t double up on dates.
Personally I would love to see it happen; I just can’t see how it could be a long term sustainable event without jeopardising the State Title competitions.
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Hay Shane,
I spoke to Geoff Ballard on Monday and he is all for a Tri series. He told me that he can not wait to compete and looked forward to nominating for all three rounds. I certainly want to particapate at all three rounds as well.
As Firko said I will probably have to forego the Nationals and CD7 next year if the Tri series goes ahead. I think what VMX needs is a series, something that riders can compete in all year and watch their championship grow, rather than a one off event that if things go wrong it is all over. The one off event also atracts fast riders that come for the day and clean up, I know that is a problem faced by BMCC with their competition.
I would also like to see and ride the tracks in different states as well as New Zealand, may be there could be a quad series.
Ji
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See Bahnsy this is why we want to get it going in Queensland.
As for state titles, The QLD state titles were run last weekend and the host club do not run pre 85 (little lone pre 90!) at this event so as such there is no pre 85 state title on offer and it is not ment (tri-series) to be a state title at all but another form of competition for pre 85 and now pre 90 bikes and interested Evo runners.
From a personal point of view I would be happy with an event that was a single day format (maybe practice on Saturday) that had fields for Evo (including pre 78), pre 85 and pre 90 as there is no stand alone event in Queenland for just these classes. It could be done as a stand alone event or part of a tri-series and I would think we would get around 70 riders for an event here in QLD without interstate entries.
It is not a championship (at this point in time) so the GCR'S will be easy run what you like as long as it fit's the era.
I would thing awards would be on offer but lets face it 90% of the riders our there do it for fun and the events on this forum of the past few weeks have been less then fun I can assure you. So if you what to run, run if you don't then don't. It will be that easy.
Shane
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Don't get me wrong, I think a Tri Series is a good idea but like Bahnsy suggests, there are too many variables in the way. It's all based on the pretext that everyone involved would travel to every event but let's be serious here, you can't get NSW and Victorian racers to travel at any time let alone to two extra interstate events on top of CD7 (presuming it's not in Victoria or NSW).
I'm certain the guys who are behind this are as keen as mustard but I think asuming that racing punters will be willing to prolong that enthusiasm over three rounds, thousands of road kilometres, thousands of dollars expense and numerous expensive days off work is a bit wishful. A similar concept was mooted in the mid nineties when the sport was twice as strong and we couldn't raise enough enthusiasm to carry it off so I doubt you'd find enough enthusiasm in todays economic climate.
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All fare points Firko and you have the experience on the board to know what has happened in the past but and there is always a but lets put it out there and try.
The focus will be on the pre 90 bikes (post vintage or semi modern call it what you will) as they at this point in time have no "event" as such on the calander as they can not race at the nationals (to many classes as it is) and are not yet on the CD program.
I would think we as a sport could attract new members to the fold through an event like this and that will have I think a knock on affect to the other classes.
As I said lets put it out there and see what happens, if it flops it is no biggie but if it catches on then it can only be good for the sport.
Off now to get some bikes ready for Coles Creek
Go the Honda's
Shane
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Sorry if I am coming across as negative, but I am rather passionate of the State based series. I use an analogy of building a house.
You start of with good solid foundation; you then build a frame and finally put on a roof. (yeh I know there is a bunch of other things in between) I liken the foundation as being the clubs, the individuals at the grass roots level of the sport. I then see the frame work as the state based series, i.e. VIPER, HEAVEN, QVMX etc. The roof is the National titles and the like. So it goes without saying that if you don’t have a good foundation and framework then the whole lot can come tumbling down or at best, be rather shakey.
Speaking to various entrants and people around the traps, in most states the foundation and framework are not as solid as they could/should be.
With issues such as class structure and GCR’s not fully aligned between the states, then you will be up against it from the get go. Personally I would like to see people focus putting their efforts into a National body looking specifically AT Evolution and Pre85 with an aim towards sorting out the class structure and GCR’s that would allow such an event in the future to be run with much less politics than if it was scheduled in today’s environment. The last thing you need is what happens in North America where they have a bunch of World Championships that only American's compete in.
And on a slightly parallel point. It would be interesting to survey if the majority of the riders would be more interested in a Tri-State Classic Dirt style event or a full on competitive Tri-State series.
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Shane,
Missed your reply whilst I was typing. Agree with your sentiment with one exception.
"As I said lets put it out there and see what happens, if it flops it is no biggie but if it catches on then it can only be good for the sport"
From experience, when it flops, usually a lot of good people with the right intentions get disillusioned and pissed off and go underground, usually not to be seen again for a long time. That would be an absolute and disastrous situation.
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I know you are writing/discussing about an eastern states event,but why are the Junior MX Nationals(Vic) having a team of eight from each state running at there Nationals this month and we aren't doing it for Classic. ??? with most Vintage folk gathering at the Nationals wouldn't this the best place and time to run your idea :P
I have read though the GCR's and can't find much on the classes for both junior and classic teams ???
Mr Bahnsy could you please explain ??? thanks
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VMX247
Apologies up front.
Sorry but i dont fully understand the question. Bit more info?
Thanks, Rod
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VMX247
Apologies up front.
Sorry but i dont fully understand the question. Bit more info?
Thanks, Rod
If the junior modern mx can do it why can't vintage ??? ???
I have reread though the posts and yes you may have a class problem, too many.. :-X
----you seem to talk yourself out of it--- get a committee together and do it---if you can't,then run it at the Classic Nationals. :-X
Ill get back in my box now -- hang on ;D ---if I knew who you knew and lived where you lived, I'd be picking dates and doing it 8)
cheers
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O/K the light has come on - Sorry :)
Whilst we ride old bikes, primarily Evolution & Pre85, the class structure and the sport is very much a crawling infant. You need look no further than a dozen threads on this site to work understand this. Junior racing is a whole different beast. Junior racing is driven by the parents, not the riders. It has evolved since day dot, is a well established class that has evolved as the bikes have. As the riders move from Juniors to Seniors, there is always a new group of riders (and their) parents to replace them guaranteeing a steady stream of volunteers, committee people, and voices.
Evolution & Pre85 riders have to play double duty, and it is very hard to stay focussed on both. I was in this position for 3 years and struggled on race day to work out wether I was a racer or a organiser and this takes it toll, to the point that this year I have sat out the full year from both committees and racing to try and re-kindle my enthusiasm, and I am not the only one.
Additionally as we drop off the racing scene, there is not another gaggle of new blood coming trough to replace us. What is coming through is riders that want Pre90 and god forbid Pre95, in other words a different generation of riders.
I'll leave the "get on a committee and do it" comment alone. People that know me understand where I stand on this.
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Bahnsy,Yep get your drift -I was probably being too enthusiastic :-\
Your side of the country is way different from our side ;D
cheers
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Well I can speak for QLD and say we are keen to get it going. I have put a proposal to the QVMX and we are keen as a club to run with it. I would sponsor the QLD leg via my Wiltec business and have stuck up my hand to help organise from this end. I have had talks with people from Echo Valley re their venue and had good feedback or it could also be held at a new MAQ complex about to come on line in SEQ.
I agree it will be hard to get off the ground but all things start small and work their way up in size if people become involved and support it.
It is (the series) designed to attract new people to the sport that are interested in the 80's error of racing and from the feedback of people on this forum I am sure that could be achieved.
People interested can contact me via the forum on PM or my company address at [email protected] so we can get idea's on the go and mover forward.
Our plan was always to have in the last half of next year (July through November) so time is still on our side specially with the nationals being early year and depending on the CD7 timing.
Shane
Shane,
You are an asset to the sport, good on you mate for believing in the feedback you have been receiving.
I for one will be giving it all my support here in NSW.
Damo
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I reckon is sounds like a worthwhile idea - and if guys like Magoo and Shane are driving it, then even if it does flop, there's little chance of them getting disillusioned and f#$king off from the sport. ;)
I'd make the effort to go to at least one round, partly to support the concept and partly for the opportunity to race my pre-90 bike...
If there were classes for the older era bikes, then I'd be more likely to try to get to all three rounds, but I understand that the older era bikes aren't the focus of this idea, so I wouldn't stamp my feet over it.
Not sure if I understand the negativity, really.
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I'd like to hear from Bruce. Last i spoke to him it was more along the lines of an Interstate event. ie a combined VIPER/Heaven event that formed part of each others points tally. This was done some years back at Denniliquin.
Perhaps his thinking has changed.
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I reckon it's a great idea, however, I would approach it a bit differently. For it to 'work' I would look to tack onto another existing series(whatever that maybe) and hopefully pick 3 meetings at vintage friendly tracks.The benefits you could offer a promoter could be 40 min starters, plus the obligatory large cash VMX mag sponsorship ;D, so the tri-state bundled up with riders sponsors, media coverage etc etc, nix for the weary promotor to do.
Love him or hate him Terry O'Neil has promoted successful road race Tri-State series, he is surprisingly easy to get on the phone and would probably be willing to help anyone with getting this off the ground.
Failing that I would be willing to help with drafting and sending press kits and results to motorcycle media and a few promotional ideas.
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Not sure if I understand the negativity, really.
Somebody has to play the devils advocate. It's all very well to propose something but I doubt that in the rush of enthusiasm that prompted this, not too many of the negatives were discussed. I've seen these "Eureka! I've got a great idea" situations arise countless times over the last 20 years and the big problem with many of them have been 1: The original ideas man starts off in a gung ho fit of frenzied enthusiasm, drumming up all sorts of support within the movement and then as things get closer to the time where the hard yakka takes over from the pub talk, the ideas man quickly oozes into the background leaving it to others to do the hard work on his big dream.
The other problem is one that I mentioned earlier. We're living in fantasyland if we reckon that the punters are going to trudge up and down the East Coast chasing a series if we can't get half of them to travel 2 hours from home for a club day more than once a year. I've discussed this very problem with Magoo and he's agreed it's true. What makes us think that a three way interstate series is going to be treated any different by those same punters that sit at home watching the footy on a Sunday arvo rather than support an event a few short hours away?
Sure I'm negative here but that comes from experience in these situations. There's nothing I'd love to see more than the Tri Series be a success but after having being stuck with other peoples dreams in the past know that many of these concepts fall flat on their arse because everyone sits back waiting for someone else to do the work. Anyone who really knows me will know that my passion for this sport is boundless but I'm also a realist and after 25 years of involvement in the vintage motocross movement have realised that you can't expect the 'shop floor' vintage racers to share your ideals on everything. Expecting bilateral support for a series is a pie in the sky fantasy. Look at the woeful support for the Dirt Track Nats and the need to plead for punters to enter the Nats every bloody year as examples of rider support. Apathy reigns supreme.
As I said earlier, sure I'm negative, but it's because I'm a realist and honestly believe our sport isn't ready for a concept like this yet.
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When will it ever be ready?
I'm not generally much of a believer in the "Build it and they will come" - but if you don't build it, then there's nothing for anyone to come to...
It doesn't need across-the-board support - and that's one of the things that we need to let go of if we are to move foward. The VMX movement encompasses a diverse bunch of bikes, and an even more diverse bunch of people. It stands to reason that no event can be all tings to all people, particularly not a race meet.
Collectively, we don't seem capable of saying "That's not my thing, but good on 'em for giving it a go! I'm sure they're all going to have a great time" - instead, 'we' always spend time talking about why it won't work, and why we won't go.
(I'm talking about tons of stuff, not just this proposed series. And yes, I've been guilty of it too).
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Jeez Firko - and Bahnsy .How was your enthusiasm levels the year before the first ClassicDirt happened?
No doubt there is alot to consider and alot of support and hard work needed but same could be said for alot of events /ideas.
Aussies are know as knockers but they are also known for havin' a go ain't they???????????
The state of the economy might be a valid point at the moment but its not going to be like this forever.
If you have a vision I say keep looking ahead .
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Aussies are know as knockers but they are also known for havin' a go ain't they??
As I said, I love the concept and I really hope it comes off . All I'm doing is pay the devils advocate and throw what can happen to bugger the whole thing. I've seen it happen so many times before and reckon the sport is too fragile right now to handle another floperoo.
Having said that...I'm more than willing to help out in any way I can. The concept is sound and the initial enthusiasm is good. I only hope that that same enthusiasm is there after round one.
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Guy's it is all good so far we need everone to jump on board be it negitive or positive so far no negitive just guy's that have been around looking at it from both sides and that's cool.
I have had past experience with running and organising state and national championships (at Karting level) so know it is no easy thing.
I have been discussing this for some time with Magoo and sounding out a few things and asking people in general conversation for their point of view and that is why I am will to do a bit of work to take it to the next level. Having said that I will need 2 others from NSW and Vico on board to help.
Lets keep the idea's coming and remember you can email direct if you would like to dicuss more offline so to speak.
I will be doing the rounds at Coles Creek this weekend to gauge support and alike.
Shane
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This Idea,could work if the the Main clubs that want to run a round in each State started communicating you would have to think apart from the Interstate competitors the Local riders would make up the fields,to a worthwhile level You don't really have to re invent the wheel here just adopt the formula that made the Thumpa Nats so successful by that I mean quality tracks the right classes and the right promotion,You need to try and bring ADB on board as a sponsor so that the events get the right pre event exposure,it would be an idea to invite some of the "Stars" of that era to form a class similar to the "Pro CLass" at he TN.this will help bring in the spectators which ='s $ in theory it should snowball from there as did the Thumpa Nats,(maybe)
I was involved with the Club in Qld that ran the TN and it was the most profitable event that the club ran each year until it stopped,a big part of the series initially was the EVO class as a series it hit the right cord with a lot of spectators and competitors that enjoyed all aspects,I am sure this could be repeated with Pre 90's done the right way,what is the right way it appears each State based club has the ability to run an event of this nature all that would be needed is a series coordinator and a press/promotions person/committee.
So if there are enough people from an organisational point of view "have a crack" but look back on what has worked well in the past and don't unnecessarily try and re invent the wheel.
Hec I would do the series if a over 50's class was thrown in :D
#8
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Not a snow-flakes chance in hell
It's all good to say "if juniors can do it why can't classic?". I can see huge differences just as a competitor.....
Juniors (and an awful lot of their parents) feel that they are going to be the next Reedy or Bubba or whoever's the 'in guy' these days and are more than enthuisastic to give up their lives to travel all over the country-side. They don't have a wife/girlfriend/boyfriend at them with "oh so your racing this weekend again."
These people can see an end to a means from all the aggrivation associated with the hassle (Little Johnny's going to be a superstar one day just you see...).
What does the guy get that wins the Vintage Tri State series?......
A trophy.
He's not going to be propelled into a new life of sports cars and fast women.....
And people are always going to say "Yeah, well, if such-and-such had been riding that round instead of going to his Aunt Mary's funeral that guy would never had won the championship..."
And someday, somewhere, someone is going to protest over the tiniest of things, "That's a '90 model swingarm bolt. Anyone got 70 bucks?" and Vintage civil war shall surely engulf us.
Put the effort into where it belongs.
Your State held meetings.
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Not a snow-flakes chance in hell
It's all good to say "if juniors can do it why can't classic?". I can see huge differences just as a competitor.....
Juniors (and an awful lot of their parents) feel that they are going to be the next Reedy or Bubba or whoever's the 'in guy' these days and are more than enthuisastic to give up their lives to travel all over the country-side. They don't have a wife/girlfriend/boyfriend at them with "oh so your racing this weekend again."
These people can see an end to a means from all the aggrivation associated with the hassle (Little Johnny's going to be a superstar one day just you see...).
What does the guy get that wins the Vintage Tri State series?......
A trophy.
He's not going to be propelled into a new life of sports cars and fast women.....
And people are always going to say "Yeah, well, if such-and-such had been riding that round instead of going to his Aunt Mary's funeral that guy would never had won the championship..."
And someday, somewhere, someone is going to protest over the tiniest of things, "That's a '90 model swingarm bolt. Anyone got 70 bucks?" and Vintage civil war shall surely engulf us.
Put the effort into where it belongs.
Your State held meetings.
STW996
Dont let these type's of comment's dampen your idea run with it.
#8
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Fair enough. But after it falls flat on it's face after the first year, don't whine about people not supporting the sport.... ;)
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In WA where we have struggled to get Pre85 up and running in the past. But things are on the change, due to work done by people this year we were able to get invites to ride at two modern events, Tumblegum Farm and The Manjimup 15000, they were a great success in the context of exposure and response from the public, but they were as a support event not a headline. Next year there is a hope that there will be four or five rounds of a state competition, tacked on to the two events mentioned plus other modern events. Don't believe you can get better advertising than being a support event at the manjimup 15000
Maybe that's the way to approach a Tri series, tack it on to selected modern events in the three states as the Pre 85 Tri Series. For the Cockroaches and the Canetoads, a Series held over the State of Origin (Rugby league) period would not go astray
Barry
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Did you ever think that our sport is small time because we think small time.
Look at Supercross in this country, until Super X it was going no where.
If we expand into a proper series than sponsors will come on board, like knee guards, oil manufacturers and so on. Since the GFC sponsorship money has been pulled from the big events and ploughed into American VMX, because on average the VMX teams spend more money on keeping their bikes and bodies going.
Suzuki is a great big part of CD and that is great, I hope for ourselves that that equates into more sales for Suzuki. All that is needed is for more mainstream bike magazines and media to come on line.
I was at three bike shops on the northside of Brisbane on the week of the VMX nationals and I did not see any counter displays telling bikers that it was on. When the sales staff asked where was I going to be riding I told them at the VMX nationals at Conondale this Friday, they were unaware that it was on.
Good promotion and even better scrutineering is required. All bikes have to be class checked before racing and there will be no protests after a set time. This just means that one month before each race competitors must have their bikes classed by a member of your States scrutineering team. This could be done at a practise or race day or even at an official site. I think that there should be teams from each state that represent each state.
I was a sponsored competitor a few years back by a local shop. The sport started to gain some momentum. The next thing I knew I was offered a sponsorship by one of the largest manufacturers in the sport based in Canada. I was to be on the same team as the American world champion. I did not add this to big note myself, it is just to illustrate how things can change.
This can only be good for the sport.
Ji
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Good idea Tossa,I think tacking it onto a modern,would be a great benefit to both.
They have just put junior sidecars in with the National Juniors----working together 8)
The both disciplines of modern and vmx aren't too dissimilar,well for us anyway...when it comes down to the nitty gritty we all love two wheels,protest against another bike,have enthusiasm and still wish we could have been a Bubba or Chad. ;D
Try not to drive a wedge between the two- MA sometimes does enough of that as it is.
As Ji mentioned work hard on the canvasing and promotions.Maleny deli & newsagent never knew the Nats was on.
cheers
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For the people involved in the idea/proposal, are you prepared to stop competing and move over to the organising/promotion of the event for 2 to 3 seasons? If not then you have a problem from the get go. If you think that you can be both i.e.: Be a rider/promoter then you have your head in the clouds. This is not being negative or cynical, it comes from experience.
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For the people involved in the idea/proposal, are you prepared to stop competing and move over to the organising/promotion of the event for 2 to 3 seasons? If not then you have a problem from the get go. If you think that you can be both i.e.: Be a rider/promoter then you have your head in the clouds. This is not being negative or cynical, it comes from experience.
Bahnsy we are talking vintage motocross here not the nationals or not CD7 and not SuperX it is nothing more than a jumped up club day (we can get 100 riders to a club event in Queensland) so I do not see the big issue with it. We would need (I would agree) 1 person in each state to run "their" round so I am sure it can be done.
All things 414 if you think or if you do ride for a shit box plastic trophy then mate you are in the wrong sport. The aim of this (and I will say this again) is to give people more so in the pre 90 class some sort of event that they can run, thats all not trying to start any break away group and not trying to re-invent the wheel just an event that pre 90 riders and in general riders of the 80's an event to run.
Number 8 that was one of the things we (Magoo and I) discussed was age group racing based on under 40 and over 40 (at least).
Shane
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Theres no real reason that it wouldn't work .Of course the hosting state will attract more home state riders (just like the Nats) but Im sure that there would be several riders in most class's at the pointy end who would make the interstate trips to do the whole series.
Don't forget also about the spectators - I know quite a few guys who have hung up the boots but would be pretty excited to see Bell,Burt,Ballard and many other lesser know riders going at it - especially on the bikes of the period.
Theres lots of potential problems and hurdles but also lots of potential for something great.
Just my opinion. :)
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Interesting, constructive comments so far. This is a concept which was first touted by a well known Victorian Vintage racer about 6 months ago and as far as I'm concerned it is a really valid idea. It is human nature to immediately look at reasons why it couldn't / wouldn't work but the truth is that with the right people behind it and really open communication between all parties it really isn't very hard to do. All you need to do is for Viper to run a club day and incorporate the Tri Series into the Club day. QVMX do the same and Heaven could say run their annual Evo / Pre '85 challenge and incorporate that round into the East Coast Nationals. If a separate Tri Series is run independantly it won't work because it would be almost impossible to get the numbers required.
Sure, there are problems, like getting a N.S.W. club open to running a pre '90 class, but with a bit of sensible forward thinking any problems aren't insurmountable.
Here's a bit of a breakdown of some of the classes we have bounced around:
Evo 125, 250 and Open
Pre '85 125, 250 and Open
Pre '90 125, 250 and Open
Under 45
Over 45
Clubman
Intermediate
Expert
Running those classes would allow 1 rider with 1 bike 9 races.
Food for thought
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All things 414 if you think or if you do ride for a shit box plastic trophy then mate you are in the wrong sport. Shane
They kept kicking me out of syncronized swimming teams so motocross was the next thing on my list.... :-\
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the sport is growing and its great to see people wanting growth, rather the same old attitudes and nockers, F--k sake, if it works, great, if it dosnt so what.
bring it on, and maybe we will see 2 eras of bikes emerge, Vintage and Classic, being run seperately or combined depending on the clubs. Hey why cant one club run different events, Vintage this week and Classic next and have members helping on alternet events.
ah yes, Magoo you've done it again, and Shane what do you have to say for yourself.
BLOODY VISIONAIRES I SAY
cheers worms( obama to some)
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QUOTE:All you need to do is for Viper to run a club day and incorporate the Tri Series into the Club day. QVMX do the same and Heaven could say run their annual Evo / Pre '85 challenge and incorporate that round into the East Coast Nationals.
good idea also-The host clubs may not need to go out of there way for the Tri Series riders, its up to them(Tri series Committe & riders) to get there and someone to collate the scoring for the day and all other events as well as the final end of year tallys or........ run with other club days and then have an entry for three state rounds at other venues in each state.(Yes you may have to travel) If the rider didn't attend then he gains no points.
Class's simple A,B and C as Vintage are predominately gentlemen you would be honest and enter the right class with the right bike........now for someone to implement all this, write's someone sitting on the other side of the Australia :-X :-\ :o
cheer
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Sure, there are problems
The big one is getting enough NSW riders to travel interstate. Solve that one Magoo and I'll get you a job in the Rudd inner sanctum. Smarter folks than you and I have tried for 20 years to get NSW racers to travel and they've always failed. It's set in stone...NSW and Victorian racers don't travel well.
Another problem that I can see is for the poor old racer to find the money to allocate to attending these meetings. Not everyone has a lazy grand (minimum, not counting bike prearation)to throw away in a weekend. With CD7, the Nats and now a proposed two extra interstate trips on the table it's getting beyond the realms of the average racers budget.
The obvious casulty is that one or more of the existing events such as CD7 or the Nats will invariably suffer if the punters decide to support the tri series. Methinks however that what will happen is that the racers will still support the cult events like the Nats and CD and will support their local round of the series but to expect them to travel all over the East Coast is, like I've said earlier expecting way too much. How many Victorians would be willing to travel to Conondale on a normal 2 day weekend and in reverse how many Queenslanders will do the trip to Victoria? Remember also that the Nats are in Victoria next year so that means two marathon road trips and one trip to NSW for Queenslanders and the reverse for Victorians if CD7 is at Conondale again.
I'm retired, the mortgage is paid and I have no big outlays and I can afford only two road trips in a given year. What about the thirty somethings that are the target market for the pre 90 division who are also the main high mortgage/job security/young dependant family demographic group that can least afford this amount of travel.
Despite Trevs "same old attitudes and nockers" description of us who are offering up reasons for treading carefully, I still maintain that this hasn't been thought out properly. If the organisors take the "if it works, great, if it dosnt so what" attitude they're leaving themselves open to plenty of heartache. There is a lot of work involved in setting up the logistics for a series of this magnitude and I think that those proposing the event have been caught up in "how f*cking cool will this be" and haven't looked at it in a business like manner. It's a good idea but in my opinion it's destined to have less support than they think. The guys proposing this idea will travel anywhere for a race but their big mistake is assuming the fickle vintage motocross fraternity are in the same space as them. Assuming the "throw a party and they'll all come" attitude is asking for failure. You're totally right Magoo, there certainly are problems and they will need to be addressed before long.
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I'm with you Firko, it will be difficult but not impossible. I've been to Viper meetings at Deniliquin and Conondale as well as QVMX meetings at Conondale where we got a crew together from N.S.W. and the truth is the we have probably averaged 15-20 N.S.W.riders so that is probably the best we'll do. The Viccos rarely travel to interstate meetings but we have had Chrissy Cormack, Elvis and the boys turn up to Heaven meetings in the past so if we give them something worthwhile, they'll turn up. The Queenslanders are easy to get to travel, let's face it, if you had to live up there you'd get out at every opportunity as well (for those of you who don't know my sense of humour, that was a joke).
Once again, as a stand alone race meeting, it won't work, but if run in conjunction with a normal club meeting it might just turn out ok.
Remember the first Crawford River Classic Firko, the grief we copped getting that off the ground? Well, that one worked. If we can generate the same type of interest and hype I reckon this one could be even better.
Are the average vintage guys just happy with the same ol' same ol' or do you think it might be worth trying something a little bit different? I'm happy to give it a go.
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... the organisors .... leaving themselves open to plenty of heartache.
I'm sure that even a shy, retiring flower like Magoo will be able to deal with it, if it turns to poop.
I'm one of those thirty somethings with the mortgage, young family and all the rest. I'm telling you now that if I want to do it, then I can find the time and the money - and I want to do this. Really, anyone who can afford to build the bike(s), maintain it/them, pay entry fees, get to race meets, pay for your licence, etc, can also afford a couple of interstate racing trips - if they want to do it.
Not everyone expects events to 'happen' exactly the way that they want them to - in a perfect world, I'd have a well-supported race on every weekend, only the era of bikes that I wanted to ride would be eligible, and I'd never have to drive more than 45 minutes from home.
This is not a perfect world, so many of us are prepared to suck it up and put in some extra time/money to support something that the like the idea of.
Edit: Why are we bitching about people wanting to run some VMX race meets?
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Hey guys if there is no visonaires then we would not have VIPER or HEVEN or even QVMX or even a vintage mx sport all it takes is possitive focus and some good planning you can promote and compete just dont make it complicated some people can do this some cannot its just how you deal with things we need to grow our sport more together as states not isolate if you are negative then you have a problem right away get in have a go and give it your best dont deflate people for trying to do what you maybe can not
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hey firko,
you cagey, old fellow.
nothing but respect mate, so dont you worry to much, as to my comments about nockers.
and by the way thanks for climbing up the tower at the Nationals and commentating for the punters,
to you Magoo, where are my Corona's, didnt you say, express p-ost? and dont make them those cats piss VB's.
anyway ive stirred the pot enough, so i will sit back and wait for the Asia PacificTri Series, to get started!
Cheers Trev(
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Hey Simon, can you pm me your home phone # please mate, I'll give you a call.
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If this thing can grow legs and run,then I would believe that once word got out the entries would increase,If the Victorians and the NSW guys find it difficult to travel it wont matter each states riders would be enough to make a meeting and the interstate competitors that wish to travel will "build it and they will come" would work in this instance,and if you could schedule the events for long weekends you would think that that would help numbers,
Oh and 414 might be time to re visit the Synchronized swimming team again and stop knocking a fair idea,
#8
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Hey Terev, I tried to post them up mate but Australia Post considers them dangerous goods. I'll deliver them in person in December when Billy escorts me to the Supercross.
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i will be there too, i think ive got a gig as a flaggie. anyway back to the Corona's, i would much rather you owe me them till the Asia Pacific Tri Series gets off the ground, that way i wont have to drink Fosters or VB.
if i have a overseas passport, will that make me an international rider?
those blokes from NZ have become legends and i wonder if they would come.
back soon , need more beer
Trev( once called Obama and now i think it's stuck)_nee worms
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I believe what Firko and a couple of others are saying, but at the same time what they 'are saying is' here are the problems, logistics, how can this problem be solved?
A problem can be looked at in many ways as we all know, so it just depends on how big or small you want the problem to be.
Logistics can be solved, lets look at the big, grand, all out style this event could be (if thats what you want) with corporate sponsored 20ft shipping containers (3 of) signwritten up for advertising. Bike and gear movement now becomes a less costly and time consuming affair. Riders and supporters fly in to and out of the two furthest meetings.
If that all sounds to hard then it looks like a long drive with a couple of good vmx mates.
The cost factor for a Tri-series needn't be looked at individually, it could be collectively riders, clubs and sponsors, with a little forethought of who is willing to go to such an event, money could be raised via raffles or other such ways. The 'state club' could be allocated 'x' number of bikes to go in their container for their 'State Champions' and the rest of the room in the container go to their club members.
With spots up for grabs at state champs, this could mean more riders could turn up to race at state champs??
A Tri-series could be a great thing for vmx and yes there will be alot of time, effort and organisation at the start but if done correctly and well thoughtout from the get-go, then riders will want to go.
A three way Tri-series doesnt just have to be about the individual rider, as it could also include teams racing with riders riding for their own club.
I say good luck and dont put a time frame to have it up and runnng by until you know exactly what you want and how you need to have it run.
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I'm not against such a thing at all. I just believe that with all the other events catering to VMX here in Oz and once real life reality kicks in (You know. Like when the great sex wears off and the girl still has your phone number and knows where you work), an event like this (or another event) will die within a very short time.
For the life of me I struggle to work, live and try to get to an entire round of Viper (still unsuccesfully), let alone anything else. Maybe I'm just not as organised or as keen as others. On top of that, keeping a bike(s) up to scratch for all these events would be a financial nightmare for me (and others I'm sure).
I don't know how you all do it. Viagra?....
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I'm not against such a thing at all. I just believe that with all the other events catering to VMX here in Oz and once real life reality kicks in (You know. Like when the great sex wears off and the girl still has your phone number and knows where you work), an event like this (or another event) will die within a very short time.
For the life of me I struggle to work, live and try to get to an entire round of Viper (still unsuccesfully), let alone anything else. Maybe I'm just not as organised or as keen as others. On top of that, keeping a bike(s) up to scratch for all these events would be a financial nightmare for me (and others I'm sure).
I don't know how you all do it. Viagra?....
I told you Roos just tell em your an advisor to the Government and you can't discussit further than that and always have 2 mob phones! Jeeezz
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Hey guys if there is no visonaires then we would not have VIPER or HEVEN or even QVMX or even a vintage mx sport all it takes is possitive focus and some good planning you can promote and compete just dont make it complicated some people can do this some cannot its just how you deal with things we need to grow our sport more together as states not isolate if you are negative then you have a problem right away get in have a go and give it your best dont deflate people for trying to do what you maybe can not
Yep :P
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I'm not against such a thing at all. I just believe that with all the other events catering to VMX here in Oz and once real life reality kicks in (You know. Like when the great sex wears off and the girl still has your phone number and knows where you work), an event like this (or another event) will die within a very short time.
For the life of me I struggle to work, live and try to get to an entire round of Viper (still unsuccesfully), let alone anything else. Maybe I'm just not as organised or as keen as others. On top of that, keeping a bike(s) up to scratch for all these events would be a financial nightmare for me (and others I'm sure).
I don't know how you all do it. Viagra?....
Thats okay but your circumstances should not restrict another individual/s idea's every one is entitled to an opinion,it's the way you put it across that seem's to be the problem,and you are under no obligation to compete,if it does not suit you.
#8
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Hear is some to Think about.
This Year a Club was gointg to Host the Oceania MX Championship and with $27000.00 in prize money was up for grabs ..
It Did not happen ...
The Host Club Need 240 riders to make it a good Meeting ...
It was well Pump Up ..
Thay Got only around 80 only it was Caned ...
..
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And the Oceania MX is relevant to what we're talking about because why?
So the Tri State series is a bad idea not worth talking about because the Oceania didn't work? Sorry, I don't buy that.
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Hear is some to Think about.
This Year a Club was gointg to Host the Oceania MX Championship and with $27000.00 in prize money was up for grabs ..
It Did not happen ...
The Host Club Need 240 riders to make it a good Meeting ...
It was well Pump Up ..
Thay Got only around 80 only it was Caned ...
..
Well why did they need 240 riders?There wasnt that many at the oceania that I went to a few years ago.
I think this scene is more grassroots and wouldn't necessarliy need huge sponsorship (would be good of course) or huge entries , of course you would need enough to make some racing but not 240.Although it could get that big if it takes off.
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Its about like the size of the apple your about to bite into ---do ya pick a big apple or small one ;D ;D ;D
who's idea was it in the beginning is he/she here :)
cheers its Friday 8)
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Why it was Caned ...
So I am Told !!!!
Too May big event in the year . Rides had race allready planed for the year.
That was the story from the Big Names .
and the Not so fast ride well why pay all that money and travel all that way and Big names would win the prize money .
as I said something to think about
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Modern racers and Vintage racers are a different kettle of fish so the link is completely irrelevant.
Is there anything positive at all you can see about the idea Dennis or is it just a failure from the start and not worth talking about?
With that type of negative thinking both the Crawford River Classic and the Conondale Classic would never have had seen the light of day. In the early stages of both events we were told "it won't work, too hard". Well they do work. Special events will always be more exciting than the same thing over and over again.
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there is allways someone faster and better than you, so is that the reason why we should all stay home? well maybe i should as i allways finish last, as i only race for the fun of it, and there lies the anwser, i would rather still be riding than sitting at home looking at a mantle piece. oh i can see the groundswell allready, it will be the end of VMX as we know it, all these modern bikes taking over, or is it just that , that this event is for pre 78 up to pre 90? how dare they not include the backbone of our sport. it will fail i tell you, fail, fail fail! but we will have a hell of a time ;D.
one too many beers
Cheers Obama
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IF YOU THINK IT IS A BAD IDEA STAY HOME AND DO SOMETHING THAT APPEALS TO YOUR LIKING DONT FLATTEN OUTHERS FOR THERE INJECTION OF INTEREST TO DO SOMETHING TO FUTHER OUR SPORT WE DONT WANT NEGATIVITY
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I'm with you Trev, it's a pretty pathetic excuse for not turning up simply because you won't win a trophy. The nay sayers have certainly gotta do better that that.
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Yes Magoo you are wright ..
Vintage and Modern are a different kettile of fish ..
It should be a great event .
Best of Luck then Bruce ............
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Intertwining the series with a State based series will bring a whole world of hurt. The competitors that take the state based competition seriously that have no interest in the Tri-State series wont have a bar of a group of individuals who has never raced prior nor after the event destroy their chance at running out the series in a winning position. I could only imagine the words in the pits if a Victorian and a Queenslander had a coming together and the Queenslander came of worse for wear at a Queensland event. Obviously the same goes in reverse.
Couple of points to also consider.
The State based event would change in status from an interclub event to a National event. Any profit that a hosting club would take away from the event would be swallowed up in the $2000 permit fee (less if SCB’s are onside)
The hosting club would have to boost up the entry fee for that given event.
Last I checked, you are not permitted to enter a National event with a one day license. You must have a Senior National License
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Here's a bit of a breakdown of some of the classes we have bounced around:
Evo 125, 250 and Open
Pre '85 125, 250 and Open
Pre '90 125, 250 and Open
Under 45
Over 45
Clubman
Intermediate
Expert
Perhaps add a dedicated 4 stroke class for any four stroke 78 up to 1989 eg XR, TT, DR, Rotax engined bikes, Euro 4T's and any other 4 stroke specials that will fit the pre 90 period. i think that would be a hit as well.
And yeah i think it would need to be pushed in ADB mag and i dont mean a little square in the back few pages, aswell as in the local bike shops.
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im happy to hang a few posters or whatever at work
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might see if the boss wants to get in on it good advedrtising i spose and more bike stores the merrier
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Your on a winner with this one Bruce. I think VMX needs a competition that is above club level and more times a years than the Nats. I could see a 'hard core' group of maybe 10-15 individuals that will do all the rounds, and realisticly they will be in with a chance of winning the series.At a local event there would be a dozen or so riders wanting to beat the import hotshots. Marketing mana from heaven. I reckon all you need is a few 'names' and to give it status and some channel 9 style self importance, ie if you race this series your racing the best in vintage racing.
I think promotion and the 'product position' (like Crown Lager) will be the key to it.
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Intertwining the series with a State based series will bring a whole world of hurt. The competitors that take the state based competition seriously that have no interest in the Tri-State series wont have a bar of a group of individuals who has never raced prior nor after the event destroy their chance at running out the series in a winning position. I could only imagine the words in the pits if a Victorian and a Queenslander had a coming together and the Queenslander came of worse for wear at a Queensland event. Obviously the same goes in reverse.
Couple of points to also consider.
The State based event would change in status from an interclub event to a National event. Any profit that a hosting club would take away from the event would be swallowed up in the $2000 permit fee (less if SCB’s are onside)
The hosting club would have to boost up the entry fee for that given event.
Last I checked, you are not permitted to enter a National event with a one day license. You must have a Senior National License
Would you really run it at such a competitive level ???
cheers
I'd also like to add that in my 22 years of motorcycles,I have met more people from other state's of Australia,than NSWelshmen-no disrespect towards NSW :-*
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Bahnsy, turn that frown upside down mate! ( I know that you are giving some valid reasons why it might not work, but you just come across REAL negative is all ).
If this grows legs i will be there.
You must be able to make it an inter club challenge/ series rather than a national event.
I know i can pack the car and drive down to Victoria and ride a club day when ever i wish, so why cant it be done the same way?
Like a 'special' club day event?
That would be a start, rather than big sponsorship and bells and whistles and heaps of money thrown at it. After all vintage isn't about status, earning a living through sponsorship / prize money. Its about having a good time with like minded mates and getting out and about. Im loving the fact that im getting out, seeing other places and meeting others that have that stupid grin on their face! Its also a good excuse to get out of the chores the wife gives me!
On a side note, i got an email from MAQ about the historic road racing champ's. I have taken this from the email.
Rachael Hern is Race Secretary for the Championships and is overwhelmed with the amount of entries.
“The Championships are going to be huge. We have 175 entries so far and 250 bikes. There are also 30 side cars spanning over 3 eras. The event features bikes from the 1930’s to the early 1980’s” Rachael said.
Im pissed off that we cant generate this kind of support for our national events. As a group, we have serious motivational issues as far as i can see.
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I think we whinge to much about travelling, we should all take a leaf out of TM Bills book. He has riden in Australia more times than most club members. I am sure that Bill wil be at all the Tri series when the dates are set.
Is there any chance of New Zealand being one of our stops?
Echo Valley is a great track and all bikes Pre78 and up could handle it. The new track under construction at Beenleigh could also be a great venue for the Queensland round.
I am sure Simon could find a track and or venue that the Tri series could be part of. Is there a Cockroach that would like to see a NSW team beat a QLD team.
Ji
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Couple of points to also consider.
The State based event would change in status from an interclub event to a National event. Any profit that a hosting club would take away from the event would be swallowed up in the $2000 permit fee (less if SCB’s are onside)
The hosting club would have to boost up the entry fee for that given event.
Last I checked, you are not permitted to enter a National event with a one day license. You must have a Senior National License
Bahnsy
This may not be right, why would it have to change? An "interclub" can have up to 5 invited clubs.
If it's the same in other states, that would be the way to do it.
This is how the Thumpers started. I guess people said no one would travel for a trail bike MX event back then as well.
IMHO I think the climate is a bit the same now as it was then eg To many wanna Be's & scary tracks.
So go for it.
A class I think would be cool is a U300 Air cooled 4st class. Bike's cheep & easy to get, good racing & a good step up for juniors.
Cheers
Noel
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I think we whinge to much about travelling, we should all take a leaf out of TM Bills book. He has riden in Australia more times than most club members. I am sure that Bill wil be at all the Tri series when the dates are set.
Is there any chance of New Zealand being one of our stops?
Ji
If you guys want to ride here (NZ) we will make it happen, no if's, but's or can't do's, they are only the stutters on the way to success.
As the words from a great song starts off ..... "Let there be lights, and there were lights,... Let there be sound, and there was sound, ... Let their be guitar............ you guys know the rest, nothing ventured nothing gained. Yes there will be hurdles to climb, T's to cross and I's to dot but did anyone think that it would suddenly materialize into an event after a couple of pages in this forum? Some of you sound like the organizers are asking you to do the work, when all they are asking if you would turn up and have fun racing..... why is it that on this forum the negatives are so easy to look at when it [this forum] should be used to find away around the problems that these guys face, when they are trying to give you more.... you give them grief .... turn the grief into problem solving solutions and you are well and truly on the way to something that has the potential to be awesome.
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Thank you brother.
I will try my best to include NZ at every opportunity.
Keep well
Ji
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MONEY
http://www.ma.org.au/Content/MA/NewsEvents/AvailableGrants/Available_Grants.htm
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I believe what Firko and a couple of others are saying, but at the same time what they 'are saying is' here are the problems, logistics, how can this problem be solved?
Exactly DJ! I think you'd find that Bahnsy and I are in favour of the Tri Series going ahead but, in my case anyway, could see that in the enthusiasm to get the thing up and running the many problems involved in setting up a series like this were being overlooked.
Back in 1986 when I had this dumb idea to promote a race for vintage motocross bikes I recieved more negative opposition than positive help. My own club, Penrith laughed at me both openly and behind my back, the ACU said it couldn't happen, and the industry thought it was a wank on the same level as demolition derbies. I was feeling pretty lonely out there but knew I was right and that my vision would one day come to fruition. In amongst the naysayers one bloke, Geoff Eldridge got behind me and with his encouragement and ability to attack problems laterally we broke down every one of the so-called barriers preventing vintage motocross from going ahead. Months of work at ACU level saw me able to convince them to introduce the one day licence system which then opened up the door to attract the many first timers we needed to set up vintage motocross. The One Day Licence system is my proudest achievment as it allowed all that followed to actually happen. After two years of solid work by a small but keen group of 'true believers' the first ever official vintage motocross meeting was held at Amaroo Park in April 1988 and the rest is history.
I mention my own experience here to push the point that if you're keen enough the Tri Series will happen but it's not going to be a walk in the park. The barriers that I've described in earlier posts are real, they're serious and they need to be addressed before any thoughts of dates or venues are discussed. Just as we broke down our barriers one at a time 22 years ago, you can too but you'll need a solid core of serious thinkers and problem solvers and guys not afraid to give up their time and energy to work on this. It's cool to be a Daydream Believer but that doesn't get the work done.
The format needs to be kept simple, as accessible as possible for as many racers as possible and costs involved kept to a minimum. As keen as the New Zealanders like TM Bill and DJ are, they're exceptions and to talk of including NZ in the series before it even gets off the ground is extremely premature and I feel that it's an unneeded complication at this time. If the series proves to be a success and the economy picks up then perhaps NZ could be included but until then the KISS principle needs to be followed.
I still have my reservations as to being able to attract and maintain a core of 15-20 racers that are prepared to travel up and down the East Coast. We're talking about thousands of kilometres of travel, thousands of dollars in fuel, accomodation and expenses twice in a year, not counting the extras of CD and the Nats. It'll take a keen and financially secure racer to become involved. The travel logistics can be overcome by trailer pooling, sharing tools and spares to limit the amount of stuff to take, containering and trucking the bikes and other ways. It's not an impossible hurdle but it needs to be addressed. The fobbing off of the travel logistics as insignicant by some posters is perplexing to me. I ask them again, Are they financially capable, able to get the time off work and able to justify the comittment to their family?
The problems I was forced to deal with 22 years ago made me more determined to get my dream happening and I'm sure the obstacles that confront the Tri State Series will be dealt with one at a time as I had to. Don't however fall into the trap that many do that "problems will sort themselves". They rarely do. I've seen many 'great ideas' come along in 20 years including an earlier attempt to set up a similar series that I was deeply involved in and they all fell down because problems weren't addressed when they were needed to be addressed. The Tri State Series will happen if those behind it believe in it enough to dedicate their time and energy to it. One kink in the thread and it'll fall on its arse.
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Is it to early in the game to suggest that maybe a poll as to this subject be put on to this site re this topic.
Questions might include the following.
1) Your name and in what state do you reside
2) How many rounds of the Tri State would you compete at
3) Which would they be
4) How many bikes/classes would you anticipate entering
And so on. It's early days yet but now might be as good as time as any to ask the question. Maybe the questions might be different, so if you are of a mind to put this up feel free to change/rearrange them. If I knew how I would do it myself. If you think it's a dumb idea say so.
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Magoo and I first discussed the idea of a tri-state series a couple of years ago ;D and since then we have now got it to the point of looking like a reality. The biggest hurdle was always going to be the travel. ::) We thought that the easiest way to make it easier on all was for riders to drop their worst round results! Riders can then choose to attend what ever rounds they wish. This way the QLDers and VICCO's would only have to travel interstate once and still be eligible for series results ;)
The choice of venues was also discussed at length, and we thought that choosing a venue as close as possible to each of the borders would be that way to go such as
Vic: Albury-Woodonga,Shepperton
Qld: Echo Valley, Warwick
NSW any where they can
Involving a modern club as the host club rather than a VMX club would be benificial in a number of ways
1. It takes away the drama's of the VMX clubs organising venues and support
2. The hosting club could run "Lites on Open" senior support classes for amateur club riders. Giving them the incentive for their club members to ride and financial support through extra entries.
I for one would support this series "Boots and All" so instead of picking the eyes out of this, bring some productive Ideas forwrd to help get this up and running :)
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Why is it that when you offer the real life issue’s that you are seen as being negative? Is there a hint of tall poppy type syndrome creeping in? As Firko has noted there are some significant issues that need to be addressed, understanding the market is probably a good start.
If for example, individuals understood the Victorian “market” then they would know that there is NO club in Victoria that promotes Evolution and/or Pre85. (Although Bendigo now has introduced a Pre85 class) They would also have researched and identified that VIPER runs in exactly the same way, and has for nearly 11 years as;
Involving a modern club as the host club rather than a VMX club would be beneficial in a number of ways
1. It takes away the drama's of the VMX clubs organising venues and support
2. The hosting club could run "Lites on Open" senior support classes for amateur club riders. Giving them the incentive for their club members to ride and financial support through extra entries.
This may not be right, why would it have to change? An "interclub" can have up to 5 invited clubs.
Yes they can but my understanding is that they are to come under the one SCB.
This is how the Thumpers started.
Yes but that was almost 2 generations ago. A lot has changed since then.
You must be able to make it an inter club challenge/ series rather than a national event.
When you involve 3 different SCB’s and the National CB then be prepared for the politics.
I know i can pack the car and drive down to Victoria and ride a club day when ever i wish, so why cant it be done the same way?
Because, in most cases you are steered in the direction of a one day club membership to overcome the technical point. This is now frowned upon by the MA and the SCB’s as it as not seen as promoting the sport in positive manner. The SCB’s want riders to belong and participate in a club, not take out a one day membership. Some (actually a lot) of clubs in Victoria have banned the one day membership. Feasibly you could join the 3 clubs but you would be up for 3 annual memberships plus the usual levies.
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Fug me .How long is a generation thesedays?I thought that women were waiting longer to have kids .
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Bahnsy,sorry that it's become so very complicated- the only way would be run at an OPEN event level :( :o
cheers S&A WA
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Ok I can see your points on having to deal with governing bodies, rules, regulations but there must be another way around this.
A question; Can a vmx club put on a race day and have riders from another state just turn up to race?
If that is possible, then could that club include an "invitation races" for the riders wishing to compete in 2 or more round of the tri-series?
Just a thought.
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Why is it that when you offer the real life issue’s that you are seen as being negative?
Because it was presented in a negative way.
Imagine this scenario...
Person A: I reckon I've got a good idea. I want to..."
Person B: Nup, it'll never work, you've got it all wrong, and besides MA won't let you.
Person C: What a great idea! I like it. Are you sure you're going to get enough entries? MA hasn't been real happy about people doing that, but it might be possible to...".
It doesn't matter whether Person B is right or not - they ARE being negative.
We all know how much time and effort both you and Firko have put (and continue to put) into the less-glamarous aspects of the sport. It would just be good to see you come to this discussion with some solutions or at least some positive thoughts toward finding solutions to the problems you have recognised. (edit: Like DJ just did! :) ).
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And like I did if you'd read my post closely Nathan. ;) but..............
It would just be good to see you come to this discussion with some solutions or at least some positive thoughts toward finding solutions to the problems you have recognised. (
It's a tall stretch to be positive about what I consider to be a fundamentally flawed concept. As I've repeated ad infinitum, it'a a good idea spoiled by the tyranny of distance. There's too much travel and expense involved for the working man...full stop. But seeing that you seem to need me to offer some hope let's sort out the travel logistics.
If a core of 10-20 riders from each state are needed to make this a success, why not hire a container, load the 20 or so bikes, tools, spares and riding gear needed and ship them to each event. Then, hire a 20 seat mini bus to ferry all of the riders to the event where they could be billeted with locals. Voila!.....Ttansport and accomodation solved in one fell swoop.
Now, this may seem a silly idea, and sure as f*ck it is....however it's still better than anything else I've read so far. I haven't seen too many problems solving ideas from the "lets go for it" side of the discussion either. ::)
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Here's my solutions:
1. Put bikes in ute.
2. Drive ute.
3. Unload bikes.
4. Race bikes and have fun.
5. Put bikes back into ute.
6. Drive home.
The biggest problem I can see is that I haven't allocated time for drinking beer... Shit, you're right, the whole thing is doomed! :D
Seriously, I'm not really seeing the drama. Car pooling is particularly easy to organise on the 'net, flights are dirt cheap, etc etc. From a rider's point of view, its only as difficult as you want it to be. I'm already thinking about who to talk to about travelling being buddies, where I might be able to blag a space on the lounge room floor, etc.
From an organiser's point of view, there's already over a dozen guys who have publically expressed a positive interest in the series, so they're well on the way to the 10~20 rider core that's needed.
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A question; Can a vmx club put on a race day and have riders from another state just turn up to race?
If that is possible, then could that club include an "invitation races" for the riders wishing to compete in 2 or more round of the tri-series?
Just a thought.
I reckon DJ has nailed it. Why can't the Tri Series consist of the Crawford River Classic, the Connondale Classic and a Viper round at Barrabool for example. Interstate riders have already travelled to these events for a number of years and joined the host club. They are already on the calendar so they shouldn't dilute the entries of existing major race meets.
Obviously it would need the approval of the host clubs and the race program may need to be adjusted to accommodate the Tri Series races (assuming they run as standalone races). Or the Pre85 race at Crawford River, for example, could be scored for the HEAVEN series and the Tri Series. If someone cleans up at Crawford River then travels up to the Connondale Classic and does the same then they would probably be motivated to travel to Victoria to pick up a trophy.
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Bahnsy there is a senior national one meeting licence avalible in the GCRs
I was going to get one for the Tassi nats but didnt end up going .
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Are there any ex-Queenslanders in Victoria or any ex-Victorians in Queensland?
Quess NSW riders up north would go to the Queensland round and NSW riders down south would go to the Victorian round. That's one way to beat the travel problem. I mean, it doesn't have to be the same people at all of the rounds. If someone was keen enough to do all of the travelling, good on them. Could be a bit embarrassing if you promote a Tri State Series but only two states turn up.
Ed
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I am from the west side of the island ...proposal looks good...but.....all I have read in any of these posts is Evo Viper pre '85..no mention of pre 75....Also...last time an event (national) was run in NSW was Coff's and the time before that..can't remember...I am certain that support from this side of the island (riders) would be good..
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Unless I've misunderstood the proposal Brian, the series is intended for pre 90.
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The series will be Pre 78 and up to Pre 90.
Ji
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Ji,
Where did Pre78 come from?
All that has ever been mentioned is;
Evo 125, 250 and Open
Pre '85 125, 250 and Open
Pre '90 125, 250 and Open
Under 45
Over 45
Clubman
Intermediate
Expert
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I'm wondering which is the best way to go.. Run the Tri Series as part of an existing vintage race meeting or have a few of the later vintage classes along with some modern clubman and vets classes at a natural terrain track ala Thumper Nats.
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I'm wondering which is the best way to go.. Run the Tri Series as part of an existing vintage race meeting or have a few of the later vintage classes along with some modern clubman and vets classes at a natural terrain track ala Thumper Nats.
Maybe the second idea for starters???
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hey Bahnsy
go to page one of this/ your debate.
pre 78 to pre 90 when it gets of the ground.
IF it IS IN BOLD IT MUST BE TRUE HEY!
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Arr Trev, I was off the understanding it is Evo and up but Pre 78 could ride up?
Shane
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RIDE UP ! bloody hell another can of worms. who wants to ride dirty old pre 78 bikes anyway? when you can ride modern evo's and pre 85/90.
yeah, the forgotten era i say, too much travel for the purist's! but just not up to the new fangled modern stuff.
anyway sorry for jumping on Bahnsy, but its is on the first page.
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RIDE UP ! bloody hell another can of worms. who wants to ride dirty old pre 78 bikes anyway? when you can ride modern evo's and pre 85/90.
yeah, the forgotten era i say, too much travel for the purist's! but just not up to the new fangled modern stuff.
:o :o
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Worms,
I missed it in the small print of Page-1. I was looking at Page-3, specifically the reply from one of the individuals who is pitching the idea, Magoo. He made a note of the class lists that i had in bold. I couldnt work out how to do the quote thing so i made it in bold. Nothing sinister about it being in bold.
Bahnsy
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Hey Obama (Worms) if you are not going to stand for Pres again (the Obama thing is because a US president's term is 4 years and Trev has at this point in time only done 3 and I what him to stand again) We will need a single head of state to run this mate and with you doing such a good job of the nationals you would be a good man for the Job!! you could then run a pre 78 class.
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Ah yes,
What this event needs is for someone in each state backed by a club, and make it as simple as a club event, i think we are all well past it and think the word competition should only be used loosely. a single vision for Classic Motocross catering for particular period of machines instead of being told by a governing body, who only acts in self interest! how we are to run an event.
So lets see, what makes an event viable, 50 to 60 riders and you break even on costs, add a few sponsors , and you make a profit. is that soooooo hard, and if people choose to ride great, debateing the pro's and con's does not matter. so dont whinge like two year olds and say it wont work because of this or that, it's so simple, life is far to short and i for one will be there with bells on, or training wheels for that matter.
Cheers Trev( once known as Obama, but revirting back to Worms)PS the 1972 Bultaco lives and is running thanks to a bit of help from Holeshot!
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lets see - and I am prepared to be wrong - but the biggest obstacle put to this so far is how many people would turn up because of the distance - but you don't want to include pre 75 which ahd the 4 biggest classes at the Nats????????
How to win friends and influence people ;D
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As I've said all along, this hasn't been thought out very well at all. While I commend the guys behind this for having the enthusiasm to propose something new, some important details on format and travel logistics seem to have been overlooked in a valley of red mist. I'd have thought that agreeing to what classes to run would have been the first aspect sorted. ::)
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so the real problem lies in the fact that they are organizing an event of 3 rounds that dosent include pre 75. How dare they! :'(, and nobody has said anything about 4 strokes yet?
the biggest fields at the Nationals were Evo.
cheers Trev
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Trev - the 4 classes that were oversubscribed and required qualifying were all pre 75?
Rossco
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Then there is the other Tri series RUGBY now where are those auzie blokes Firko likes coming?
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As a direct relationship, how are the Pre75 fields supported at a State level Vs a National level?
From what i understand, a fair % of riders at the National level are not full time supporters at a State level. If this is the case then you cant draw a comparison with what is on the table Vs a once a year National event, specially as the VMX Tri Series is looking to add a further 3 classes to include Pre90.
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sorry rossco,
but seeing i was at the coal face of the event, it might of looked that way but certainly wasnt, 3 classes needed to quailify and one of those was evo open. not quite every class in pre 75, seeing there is a total of 15 classes for pre 75 at a nationals with age groups, yes a good showing but not quite as you remmeber.
Cheers Trev,
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Here's a question - which I am sure will be ignored, but I think it worth asking:
If the Tri-Series (isn't buried in negativity first, and) actually gets off the ground, will it be considered a success or a failure if 100 riders turn up to each event, but only 10 of them attend more than one round?
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what answer do you want, does it really matter if only 10 are committed to all 3 rounds.
time for another beer.
cheers, 3 round Trev( so we only need another 9) ;D
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Here's a question - which I am sure will be ignored, but I think it worth asking:
If the Tri-Series (isn't buried in negativity first, and) actually gets off the ground, will it be considered a success or a failure if 100 riders turn up to each event, but only 10 of them attend more than one round?
Would they not pre-enter the Tri series -so if they drop say one or two rounds,basically you call it quits because you have lost points straight away -The riders entered would have to commit to the whole series- to make it viable for all involved...as mentioned previous run like an Inter Club series--please note this is just an opinion/idea. 8)
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Fair points Alison, and I pretty much agree with a lot of what you've suggested.
But let's assume that you enter for each round individually - if people support each event without chasing the series, is that a success or a failure?
Cheers, 3 round Nathan (looking for another 8 ) :D
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Fair points Alison, and I pretty much agree with a lot of what you've suggested.
But let's assume that you enter for each round individually - if people support each event without chasing the series, is that a success or a failure?
Cheers, 3 round Nathan (looking for another 8) :D
Yes it's a success with the number of bums on seats-that goes for all events across the board like the DT Nats-need numbers to run.Commitment as long as you have numbers from the tri series within that event.Its hell of a lot to ask the Tri series Race secretary/officials to do for the each round entered individually..I know I'd be peed-but not for long ;) ;D
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so i could finish last( as usual) and win! yipppppppeeeeee.
Cheers Trev
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so i could finish last( as usual) and win! yipppppppeeeeee.
Cheers Trev
spot on and its been done before today ;) ;D
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In a monetary sence, then bums on seats would suggest a success. 25+ on each grid would do it.
Personally i think that a a series success would have to have better then 30% interstate riders at each round otherwise it might as well be a state based event which is what is currently in place.
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Trev - I luv this banter and fancy a bit at the moment ( ;D). I didn't say every pre 75 class - check back - but in my programme I thought the 4 classes that needed qualifying were all pre 75!!! Now of course I have been known to be wrong and don't have my programme with me but I also think I was at the same coal face. But anyway my original question still applies - would you not consider pre 75 for something like this (trying to be positive) - although I am one for different tracks for pre and post 75 so realise it may not be that practical either?
40-love my favour :D :D :D
Rossco
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Evo open had qualifying races.
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How many classes you can run in a single day is a simple mathematics. The current proposal for a class structure is;
Evo 125, 250 and Open
Pre '85 125, 250 and Open
Pre '90 125, 250 and Open
Under 45
Over 45
Clubman
Intermediate
Expert
Assuming that;
There are 14 classes
A race is 3 laps (although I am guessing that the Pre90 guys will want 4)
The lap time is 2 minutes on average.
There is 3 races’ per class.
14 classes x 3 races = 42 individual races
42 races x 6 minutes per race = 252 minutes (4.2 hrs)
As long as there are no hiccups during the course of the day, my experience with this would tell me that I would need about 6.5/7 hours to run the day out. If the track is set up in such a way that the next race can start whilst the other is still running then you have a better chance to stick to the time. As much as it pains me, we are in a sport where it not a matter of if a rider gets hurt, but when, an accident can stop the program for more then 30 minutes and generally you cant recover that time.
As most tracks now have curfew where a bike can’t start till 9:00/9:30 am on a Sunday (local council dependent) then you are looking at a 4.00 pm finish.
If the lap time is less then you are better off by about an hour, so perhaps a 3.00 pm finish and none of this factors in a lunch break. Either way a single days racing wont support much more than 45 3x3 races.
So if you add Pre75 classes then you would have to run it over 2 days or drop classes from the original schedule.
Note:
Pre78 has been mentioned but not included in the above.
There is no provision for qualifying races
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What about the 100cc dunger class? At last, a perfect place for them!
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actually Bahnsy thats a good point and one bought up previously as to why the Nats were over 3 days and 3 lap races - couple that with really requiring different tracks and to include pre 75 just aint going to work.
I am just going back to my box now :o
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How many classes you can run in a single day is a simple mathematics. The current proposal for a class structure is;
Evo 125, 250 and Open
Pre '85 125, 250 and Open
Pre '90 125, 250 and Open
Under 45
Over 45
Clubman
Intermediate
Expert
Without much/any fuss or bother, Heaven 'always' manages two rounds of:
1. Ladies/Pre-70.
2. Classic 125.
3. Pre-75 250.
4. Pre-75 Open.
5. Pre-78 250.
6. Pre-78 Open.
7. Post-Classic 125.
8. Evo 250.
9. Evo Open.
10. Pre-85 250.
11. Pre-85 Open.
12. Pre-85 only.
13. Four stroke.
14, 15, 16, 17. At least four junior races wedged in the middle.
The juniors get two laps, seniors on older bikes get three laps, the newer bikes get four.
So, two rounds of seventeen races = 34 races. With a (rough) average of three laps per race = 102 laps worth of racing.
The proposed Tri-Series format has three rounds of fourteen races = 42 races. If each race is three laps, then you've got 126 laps of racing.
If the format was tweaked to make it two rounds of four laps, then you'd have 112 laps of racing to get through. I also suspect that this would be faster as you spend less time waiting for the track to be cleared before starting the next race.
(NB: "Laps of racing" is the total number of laps that need to be completed in every race. It has nothing to do with the number of laps any punter would do, unless you entered [and finished] every single race on the day.)
If the whole idea is as poorly supported as some suggest it will be, then I'm sure there will be no drama with combining at least some of the races.
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Can anybody tell me what Pre 85 only is? (I'm guessing it's the politically correct "no twin-shocks here thank you very much" class) :-\
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How many classes you can run in a single day is a simple mathematics. The current proposal for a class structure is;
Evo 125, 250 and Open
Pre '85 125, 250 and Open
Pre '90 125, 250 and Open
Under 45
Over 45
Clubman
Intermediate
Expert
Without much/any fuss or bother, Heaven 'always' manages two rounds of:
1. Ladies/Pre-70.
2. Classic 125.
3. Pre-75 250.
4. Pre-75 Open.
5. Pre-78 250.
6. Pre-78 Open.
7. Post-Classic 125.
8. Evo 250.
9. Evo Open.
10. Pre-85 250.
11. Pre-85 Open.
12. Pre-85 only.
13. Four stroke.
14, 15, 16, 17. At least four junior races wedged in the middle.
The juniors get two laps, seniors on older bikes get three laps, the newer bikes get four.
So, two rounds of seventeen races = 34 races. With a (rough) average of three laps per race = 102 laps worth of racing.
The proposed Tri-Series format has three rounds of fourteen races = 42 races. If each race is three laps, then you've got 126 laps of racing.
If the format was tweaked to make it two rounds of four laps, then you'd have 112 laps of racing to get through. I also suspect that this would be faster as you spend less time waiting for the track to be cleared before starting the next race.
(NB: "Laps of racing" is the total number of laps that need to be completed in every race. It has nothing to do with the number of laps any punter would do, unless you entered [and finished] every single race on the day.)
If the whole idea is as poorly supported as some suggest it will be, then I'm sure there will be no drama with combining at least some of the races.
Why only 2 rounds of racing? If i was driving 1000k's to race i'd want to do at least 3 rounds, especially if i was travelling with a mate and we only took 1 bike each.
I like the program Bahnsy has listed, less classes(assuming that they combine some of the smaller classes), more rounds and hopefully 4 or 5 lap moto's.
Are the Clubman, Intermediate and Expert classes for modern bikes?
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Ross, This is the simple version:
At Heaven events, the older big bore bikes all get to 'ride up' an era - meaning that everyone gets two rides per bike. The club rules say that you can enter a bike a maximum of two classes.
Obviously the Pre-85 Open guys don't have that option, so the pre-85 only class was created to give them a second class to ride. Other capacity pre-85 bikes also get to ride in this class, so its not just a re-run of the pre-85 open races.
Yes it means that the older bikes are excluded, but they all get a second ride anyhow.
JohnnyO, yeah, that's entirely fair enough too. I was just floating ideas and trying to keep some perspective on the "can we fit all of the races into one day?" part of the discussion.
If there are modern races as part of the programme, then presumably you could enter your old bike in that class too, which would give everyone anotheer ride.
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How do you define 'older' though?
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How do you define 'older' though?
Not 'newer'
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This is a little of the original thread but still addresses the point re Pre85 / Evolution.
Under the current GCR's the Evolution class is a all but a waste of time where there is no riding up a class rule in place within the GCR's. If you were smart (under the current GCR's) you'd build a good solid Evolution bike and run it in the Pre85 class as well.
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Montesa and Maico already have..... ;)
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Bahnsy if a round was run in Vic would the support classes alongside Evo, Pre 85 and Pre 90 be modern bike classes or more vintage. What works best down there?
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Johhny O,
It would depend on what you are trying to achieve.
If it is about making a few $ for the host club then you have to run it alongside moderns. At an event like that you would attract a full field of moderns from within the hosting club and the MV District that the club belongs to. That brings in good money. However the down side is if you have a Pre90 or Pre85 specific bike (where you cant run in EVO) you'd be a little pissed off that you travelled a thousand or more km's to race at a VMX tr-series event and got only 3 races when there is a modern grid getting 4 x 4 laps of racing. If it was me i'd be asking why the modern class isn't dropped and and extra round (or lap per race) is added for the Pre85 and Pre90 classes.
For what its worth, don't even entertain a Junior class (either modern or VMX) it's just to much hard work. In the end it's all about making the thing break even and putting a few $ into the hosting clubs coffers.
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I was just wondering whether you would need the moderns as support to make up the numbers. I would rather see it be an all vintage meeting if possible with the main Tri Series classes being Pre 90, Pre 85 and Evo.
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Pre 75 etc can still be run but it was suggested earlier the main TRI SERIES classes be pre 90, pre 85 and evo.
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From my time running interclub events, you need 45/50 individual VMX entries (plus the hosting clubs Moderns) to make running an event worthwhile. For something like this where there is a consideration not to have a support class, then you should be looking at 60+
Given that this would be a National event, it's would be a strech that MA would grant a $350 interclub race day permit given the people attending so you would then you could be looking at $1000 for a permit. At 65 entries you would see about $15 per entry going to the MA/SCB licence. At a guess you would have to look at $80 to $100 for an entry fee to be sustainable if you don't have sponsors. Another few issues that should also be considered.
1. There would more than likely be a clash of state allocated numbers. I for one wouldn't be to happy giving up my number to change to another given that both my bikes have pre-printed back grounds along with my screen printed jersey. An event like this would have to run with transponders.
2. It would be unreasonable to have only series trophies. You would need to have 3 small sets of trophies and one overall series trophies. If any one has been involved in purchasing trophies you would now that it aint cheap.
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QuoteThat brings in good money. However the down side is if you have a Pre90 or Pre85 specific bike (where you cant run in EVO) you'd be a little pissed off that you travelled a thousand or more km's to race at a VMX tr-series event and got only 3 races when there is a modern grid getting 4 x 4 laps of racing.
Fix it by Pre entering the Tri Series.
Quote from my time running interclub events, you need 45/50 individual VMX entries (plus the hosting clubs Moderns) to make running an event worthwhile. For something like this where there is a consideration not to have a support class, then you should be looking at 60+
Given that this would be a National event, it's would be a strech that MA would grant a $350 interclub race day permit given the people attending so you would then you could be looking at $1000 for a permit. At 65 entries you would see about $15 per entry going to the MA/SCB licence. At a guess you would have to look at $80 to $100 for an entry fee to be sustainable if you don't have sponsors. Another few issues that should also be considered.
1. There would more than likely be a clash of state allocated numbers. I for one wouldn't be to happy giving up my number to change to another given that both my bikes have pre-printed back grounds along with my screen printed jersey. An event like this would have to run with transponders.
2. It would be unreasonable to have only series trophies. You would need to have 3 small sets of trophies and one overall series trophies. If any one has been involved in purchasing trophies you would now that it aint cheap.
I like how you think big Barnsy :o ;D
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From my time running interclub events, you need 45/50 individual VMX entries (plus the hosting clubs Moderns) to make running an event worthwhile. For something like this where there is a consideration not to have a support class, then you should be looking at 60+
Given that this would be a National event, it's would be a strech that MA would grant a $350 interclub race day permit given the people attending so you would then you could be looking at $1000 for a permit. At 65 entries you would see about $15 per entry going to the MA/SCB licence. At a guess you would have to look at $80 to $100 for an entry fee to be sustainable if you don't have sponsors. Another few issues that should also be considered.
1. There would more than likely be a clash of state allocated numbers. I for one wouldn't be to happy giving up my number to change to another given that both my bikes have pre-printed back grounds along with my screen printed jersey. An event like this would have to run with transponders.
2. It would be unreasonable to have only series trophies. You would need to have 3 small sets of trophies and one overall series trophies. If any one has been involved in purchasing trophies you would now that it aint cheap.
You have brought up a lot of valid points,in all your post but I have seen nothing that could not be over come,as far as numbers go,put a letter in front eg,Q,N.V,S,W,A if needed so you don't have to change your pre printed numbers,with a little intelligence and proper thought,this series is possible,
#8
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Number 8,
Within reason, anything can be fixed with people that dont see the problem, rather the challenge.
Re: numbers, there is barely enough room for the numbers let alone a letter. Numbers aside, the most significant issue that anyone faces when running an event (Junior parents aside :D ) is lap scoring and end of day points calculation.
Just be mindfull that you would be dealing with MA and 3 x SCB's ;)
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Number 8,
Within reason, anything can be fixed with people that dont see the problem, rather the challenge.
Re: numbers, there is barely enough room for the numbers let alone a letter. Numbers aside, the most significant issue that anyone faces when running an event (Junior parents aside :D ) is lap scoring and end of day points calculation.
Just be mindfull that you would be dealing with MA and 3 x SCB's ;)
It has been successfully done before and could again,just need the right people and the right approach,
#8
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Who has to get MA involved, beyond the basic permits?
Unless you want official MA recognition of the championship, MA doesn't even need to know that there is a Tri-Series.
The ACT Rally series rums without CAMS recognition, and is easily the most popular rally series in the country. (NB: MA is not a perfect organisation, but they are 1000x better than CAMS).
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Nathan,
Are you saying that a motorsport event is being run without any interaction with CAM's or FIA?
(BELOW - MY POINT OF VIEW ONLY)
I'm not saying that MA and the SCB's will provide any significant issue, however, they may want a minimum set of standards and protocols met given it's state vs state cross over. As an example if a Victorian issued National licence holder took up a protest or injury claim to the Queensland/NSW SCB then it would get air play. I don't think that it would be a good position for a promoter to be in when they have to deal with MA where they had not been breifed at a minimum. They may not want anything to do with it in any official manner, but i wouldn't think it would be a good idea to leave them out of it.
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OK ! so who is in on this Tri Series--I heard a little peep from Magoo before, also
QUOTE:When we were at CD6 a fellow was asked to speak at one of the riders briefing.
He promoted a tri series next year that would see races in Victoria, NSW and Queensland.
No8 is in along with motomaniac,Lozza,damo,Caps,Simon Healy,STW996,Kaw440,OZ555ktm,Nathan and Worms who thinks we are all great visionaries ;D and if it comes west with pre75 ;) Ross,Tossa and myself,that covers most states of OZ... oh and Firko will lend a hand with publishing.. ;D..
so yep go ahead 8)
YOU HAVE THE POWER
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It wasn't what I was saying, but it does happen.
I'm wandering off-topic here, but FYI:
1. There are two alternative sanctioning/insuring bodies for four-wheeled motorsport. AMSAG does gravel rallying in NSW and AASA does everything, all over the country. AASA's insurance has been tested, and is at least equal to CAMS'.
The AASA has taken huge chunks out of CAMS' market share as they assess ideas on their risk, rather than simply saying "No, you can't do that!". Most of the tarmac rallies around the country are now AASA sanctioned, and about half of the circuit races are too.
CAMS' response to it all is fascinating, and I'm happy to detail the little that I know if anyone is wondering about competition outside of the CAMS/FIA, or MA/FIM umbrellas.
2. The ACT Series is made up of all CAMS events, but the series itself is not recognised by CAMS. The 'member' events are variously State Championship, state series, multi-club and club-only events (if they're club-only events, then the host club offers free or dirt cheap day membership. CAMS frowns on this, but does nothing more).
Basically the idea is that the events are just some of many that would be conducted regardless of the ACT series. So the ACT Series is basically just a pointscore applied to a random set of events - and that pointscore is 'invisible' to CAMS (the definitely know that the series exists, its just that its nottheir baby so they ignore it).
I'm not totally familiar with the finer details of MA's rules, but I can't see why a similar idea would fail in the MA world.
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And that gentlemen is why I and others have mentioned running it with another clubs club day-too easy 8)
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Talk is cheap , the back bone is pre 75 , when do you get it ? Pre 90is is old moderns . Which corporate sponsor would back a serie with no soul ?
settle Wasp, its pre 85 as well and you just got your glory at the Nats in a pre 85 class ;D
Pre75 will be around for a few more days yet 8)
cheers
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Of the people listed below, who represents QVMX, HEAVEN & VIPER and their respective comittees as an elected spokesperson?
No8, motomaniac, Lozza, damo, Caps, Simon Healy, STW996, Kaw440, OZ555ktm, Nathan & Worms.
(NB: I think you may find that 1 or more of the above are 1 in the same person; ie their real name and alias are both listed)
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It appers at the moment , pre 90 pushers are people that never got any medals in modern or cant afford to buy a modern bike . But Vintage it is not . :D
each to his own 8)
I though f....k pre 85,pre 90 ,but it has taken me a while and attending a Nationals to recognize that people out there actually do this stuff.... so hey.....so be it ;D 8)
cheers
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Of the people listed below, who represents QVMX, HEAVEN & VIPER and their respective comittees as an elected spokesperson?
No8, motomaniac, Lozza, damo, Caps, Simon Healy, STW996, Kaw440, OZ555ktm, Nathan & Worms.
(NB: I think you may find that 1 or more of the above are 1 in the same person; ie their real name and alias are both listed)
what's wrong with these people having so many names.......so its true what they say about Magoo :D ;) weirdo ;D
so how many are all go for this TRI SERIES EVENT then ??????????
cheers
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pencil me in for Farley Heights , the real thing. ;)
yep sure and don't you think that would be a truck load of organizing for that event ;D
cheers
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It appers at the moment , pre 90 pushers are people that never got any medals in modern or cant afford to buy a modern bike . But Vintage it is not . :D
Is that relevant?
The point is that there is a market for it, and someone is talking about catering to that market.
I'm not anything official to do with Heaven, beyond being a member - I certainly haven't been trying to be a spokesperson for the club - my apologies if anyone has thought that.
Lozza is just another member like me. oz555 is the Heaven president.
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pencil me in for Farley Heights , the real thing. ;)
Whats Farley Heights?
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pencil me in for Farley Heights , the real thing. ;)
Whats Farley Heights?
in here
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=9579.0
quote:
I'm not anything official to do with Heaven, beyond being a member - I certainly haven't been trying to be a spokesperson for the club - my apologies if anyone has thought that.
Lozza is just another member like me. oz555 is the Heaven presid
Suppose it doesn't matter who is who --we are all here for VMX :P
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Of the people listed below, who represents QVMX, HEAVEN & VIPER and their respective comittees as an elected spokesperson?
No8, motomaniac, Lozza, damo, Caps, Simon Healy, STW996, Kaw440, OZ555ktm, Nathan & Worms.
(NB: I think you may find that 1 or more of the above are 1 in the same person; ie their real name and alias are both listed)
Bahnsy,
I am not an elected member of anything,however this concept has been put forward and having been in a similar position as the proposers in the past I will support them 100% as it sounds to me to be a good concept and the original proposal of EVO,PRE 85 & PRE 90 are classes that are not supported at every VMX meeting in each State and could use a STAND ALONE event or series,Now there has been a lot of comments on this thread some valid some not as a believer I think the proposers should go for it,and if they are unsure of anything there are enough people out there in VMX & MX land that have had experience and could lend assistance by way of advice or physical input,
There are several ways these events could be run,they can be run in a low key way or a way that can potentially generate revenue for the Clubs involved,I personally think the idea of having Moderns should be adjusted,to a Full on Vets on Modern Class this would give some of the more recent past Stars an opportunity to compete much in the way that the Vets Cup worked at the last round of the Australian MX championship and the reason I suggest this is that there is potential to promote this to the Media,Sponsors and Spectators get this combination right then you are virtually guaranteed a healthy revenue stream,which then gives each club the ability to grow there round and the series,The other reason I suggest Vets is the track layout can be designed to suit the EVO,PRE 85 & PRE 90,classes which will be more than suitable for a few out of shape Modern Vet riders,(no crazy jumps or stutters) .
To move the concept forward the clubs that are interested in each state need to start communicating,you should put one Coordinator in place and then bring in some people to support him that can handle Media type issue's and Sponsor re cruiting, and let the Clubs conduct the meetings in exactly the same way they have been,and if the interested parties are still a bit unsure just look back at the Thumper Nats for ideas,I have said in previous posts you don't need to re invent the wheel adopt a concept that worked extremely well in the past.
It can be done the doubters are always entitled to there opinion,however it is unfair to attempt to trample on someone else's Via the Forum,if they have not actually been in the position of conducting this style of event/series
#8
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Talk is cheap , the back bone is pre 75 , when do you get it ? Pre 90is is old moderns . Which corporate sponsor would back a serie with no soul ?
When will you get it? They are the next step in the evolution of vintage mx. That statement is right up there with ' music is the tool of the devil'.
It appers at the moment , pre 90 pushers are people that never got any medals in modern or cant afford to buy a modern bike . But Vintage it is not . :D
I can afford a modern AND I have medals from when I raced, so wrong again.
I suppose that leaves you open to the fact that you cant ride a two wheeler so you end up on a sidecar. Spiteful I know, but you aren't exactly nice with your comments.
I think we all get it that according to you the world ended in 1975. No need to rubbish something you have no interest in. Just stick to what you like.
Also on the sponsorship side of things. Guys in there 30's and 40's seem to reach further into their pockets and would be a good target market. And these are the guys who are into pre 85 and pre 90 in general .
Just be careful next time you go overseas. Dont sail too far as you may fall off the end!
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At the risk of being accused of being a negative old curmudgeon again. I've got a few more random thoughts on the TRI Series.
*As much as I'm a stalwart for the pre '75 movement, I reckon the Tri Series should be limited to Evo/Pre 85/pre 90. Most of the behind the scenes lobbyists for the series are gung ho Pre 90 guys so I'd let them run loose with their dream without the restriction of having to deal with a division of the sport that (as I've been continually told) is dying. Let the success or failure of the series be totally down to their vision of the future of VMX.
*Because the pre 90 movement has more in common with modern motocross than with traditional vintage motocross, I think the Tri Series should join with a modern series, in a similar way to the old twin shock class was tied in with the ThumperNats a decade ago. That may draw more new racers out of the modern movement, eager for another ride and would then flow on to them becoming a part of the regular pre 90 "vintage" scene.
*I know I'm repeating myself here but nobody seems to have a serious answer to the problem. The vintage movement is essentially a self funded, working class sport. Most of the competitors are average guys with average jobs and the usual mortgages, car payments, school fees and myriad of outgoing expences to deal with. Most of those guys have normal jobs that require you to be there a minimum of 5 days a week. For a Victorian to travel 1500km to the series would require two days minimum away from work in addition to the two day weekend=4 days, and spend up to 3k on fuel for the round trip, not counting accomodation, food and drink, and the many incidentals like bike preparation, car wear and tear etc. This could bring the outlay up to $4000 for just one round of the series. Halve it for the Sydney round and add the usual expences for the local round and you have around $7000 outlay to cover the series. Of course some could do it cheaper and others would spend more but my point is that for the average racer from the pre 90 class demographic who lives in Victoria or Queensland is up for some serious expenditure that needs to be justified. Those living in NSW, the 'middle' state don't have quite the travel expenditure but $5000 would be a fair guess for their outlay. Of course trailer and car pooling greatly reduces those costs but in the end they're still substantial.
* Now, presuming the Tri Series takes off and they are inundated with entries, the money tree must surely run out of fruit and something will suffer. I doubt that many would be dumb enough to bypass their mortgage or family expenditure for something like a motorcycle series so something else must miss out. To me that would be one or both of the existing blue ribbon events, the Nationals and Classic Dirt. I'd be very surprised to see too many Vics at Classic Dirt or Queenslanders at the Nats if they'd committed their funds to the Tri Series so my point to this is.......
*There is no room on the vintage motocross calendar for yet another grab on the purse strings. We saw this year that Victorians were unwilling to attend both Classic Dirt and the Nats due to financial constraints. They either attended CD6 or the Nats, very few did both and the majority did neither. This in itself should set off a few alarm bells that by adding yet another cash outlay to the already tight system the calendar is being overloaded. The lack of a serious entry roll up for the Dirt Track Nats is yet another example of the limited funds out there in VMXland. While trying to drum up some extra entries for the Dirt Track Nats I recieved the "I've used up all of my racing and travel funds (and home brownie points!) on the Nats and CD6" reply more often than I'd even expected. I'm a self funded retiree who got out on a pretty good government superannuation yet I've still got to seriously watch my pennies. I was once one of the the pre 90 demographic of the "thirty something" with a mortgage, working wife, school age kids and a lot of debt and know I would have battled to get to just two of these events let alone all of them.
*I'm being accused of being negative towards the Tri Series idea and to some eyes that's probably right. However, I ask those who've called me negative if they will be seriously committing themselves to a three round series, The Nats and CD7 in 2010? I doubt it, something has to give. To my way of thinking the Tri Series is a good idea thats time hasn't come yet. Our sport can't handle yet another big event in the current structure and world financial situation. I'm not negative, I've been positive about this sport for far longer than anyone. What I am however is a realist who doesn't want to see anything detrimental happen to a sport that's just getting back on its feet after 10 years in the doldrums. I've seen a lot of dream weavers come along with the latest "great idea" and nearly all of them have failed because the proposers didn't look hard enough at the big picture. The best thing we can do for VMX right now is to perfect the classing systems we've already got in place, demystify the rulebook, improve participation in the events already on the calendar and keep the progress steady rather than jumping ahead with too many "wouldn't it be a good idea if" brain flashes.
I'll now open a James Squire Amber Ale, go sit on the porch and spoke a rear wheel for my Cheney confident that some will still totally miss my point and accuse me of being negative. C'est la vie ;)
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Hmmm, quite a thread; I won't hit the quote button to lump in Firko's weighty post but I mostly agree with him.
An idea or concept is one thing (VMX Tri Series), but getting VMX people to commit - given the size of our wide brown land - is quite another.
Could it work in New Zealand? Maybe it could.
It appears they have passionate and committed numbers - and it's a small-ish island - so travel isn't really an issue.
But in OZ across State borders... I don't think so.
And for me personally I think pre 85 and pre 90 would slot nicely with the moderns if you need to run both on the day for financial reasons.
These two classes are not too far removed from moderns and are less likely to 'offend' modern riders on a joint track day.
To me they're 'old moderns' as some others here have stated - and that's my honest opinion so don't read any perceived nastiness into it.
But Evo... Evo is currently a part of VMX - and should stay - whereas the 'newer' classes are yet to be fully accepted.
If - as mentioned in other threads - these two classes (85/90) were kept separate from VMX they'd tag along with their modern cousins.
I'm sure their numbers will increase, but I don't think 'Vintage' or 'Classic' is an appropriate name for this group.
And I'm not trying to 'jack the thread with the tired old inclusion or not of the '85/90 bikes.
But for an 'older bike' Tri Series to work at all, I think they could tag onto the moderns and make it financially viable.
So, please let me know - without getting bent out of shape... ::)
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At the risk of being accused of being a negative old curmudgeon again. I've got a few more random thoughts on the TRI Series.
*As much as I'm a stalwart for the pre '75 movement, I reckon the Tri Series should be limited to Evo/Pre 85/pre 90. Most of the behind the scenes lobbyists for the series are gung ho Pre 90 guys so I'd let them run loose with their dream without the restriction of having to deal with a division of the sport that (as I've been continually told) is dying. Let the success or failure of the series be totally down to their vision of the future of VMX.
*Because the pre 90 movement has more in common with modern motocross than with traditional vintage motocross, I think the Tri Series should join with a modern series, in a similar way to the old twin shock class was tied in with the ThumperNats a decade ago. That may draw more new racers out of the modern movement, eager for another ride and would then flow on to them becoming a part of the regular pre 90 "vintage" scene.
*I know I'm repeating myself here but nobody seems to have a serious answer to the problem. The vintage movement is essentially a self funded, working class sport. Most of the competitors are average guys with average jobs and the usual mortgages, car payments, school fees and myriad of outgoing expences to deal with. Most of those guys have normal jobs that require you to be there a minimum of 5 days a week. For a Victorian to travel 1500km to the series would require two days minimum away from work in addition to the two day weekend=4 days, and spend up to 3k on fuel for the round trip, not counting accomodation, food and drink, and the many incidentals like bike preparation, car wear and tear etc. This could bring the outlay up to $4000 for just one round of the series. Halve it for the Sydney round and add the usual expences for the local round and you have around $7000 outlay to cover the series. Of course some could do it cheaper and others would spend more but my point is that for the average racer from the pre 90 class demographic who lives in Victoria or Queensland is up for some serious expenditure that needs to be justified. Those living in NSW, the 'middle' state don't have quite the travel expenditure but $5000 would be a fair guess for their outlay. Of course trailer and car pooling greatly reduces those costs but in the end they're still substantial.
* Now, presuming the Tri Series takes off and they are inundated with entries, the money tree must surely run out of fruit and something will suffer. I doubt that many would be dumb enough to bypass their mortgage or family expenditure for something like a motorcycle series so something else must miss out. To me that would be one or both of the existing blue ribbon events, the Nationals and Classic Dirt. I'd be very surprised to see too many Vics at Classic Dirt or Queenslanders at the Nats if they'd committed their funds to the Tri Series so my point to this is.......
*There is no room on the vintage motocross calendar for yet another grab on the purse strings. We saw this year that Victorians were unwilling to attend both Classic Dirt and the Nats due to financial constraints. They either attended CD6 or the Nats, very few did both and the majority did neither. This in itself should set off a few alarm bells that by adding yet another cash outlay to the already tight system the calendar is being overloaded. The lack of a serious entry roll up for the Dirt Track Nats is yet another example of the limited funds out there in VMXland. While trying to drum up some extra entries for the Dirt Track Nats I recieved the "I've used up all of my racing and travel funds (and home brownie points!) on the Nats and CD6" reply more often than I'd even expected. I'm a self funded retiree who got out on a pretty good government superannuation yet I've still got to seriously watch my pennies. I was once one of the the pre 90 demographic of the "thirty something" with a mortgage, working wife, school age kids and a lot of debt and know I would have battled to get to just two of these events let alone all of them.
*I'm being accused of being negative towards the Tri Series idea and to some eyes that's probably right. However, I ask those who've called me negative if they will be seriously committing themselves to a three round series, The Nats and CD7 in 2010? I doubt it, something has to give. To my way of thinking the Tri Series is a good idea thats time hasn't come yet. Our sport can't handle yet another big event in the current structure and world financial situation. I'm not negative, I've been positive about this sport for far longer than anyone. What I am however is a realist who doesn't want to see anything detrimental happen to a sport that's just getting back on its feet after 10 years in the doldrums. I've seen a lot of dream weavers come along with the latest "great idea" and nearly all of them have failed because the proposers didn't look hard enough at the big picture. The best thing we can do for VMX right now is to perfect the classing systems we've already got in place, demystify the rulebook, improve participation in the events already on the calendar and keep the progress steady rather than jumping ahead with too many "wouldn't it be a good idea if" brain flashes.
I'll now open a James Squire Amber Ale, go sit on the porch and spoke a rear wheel for my Cheney confident that some will still totally miss my point and accuse me of being negative. C'est la vie ;)
Firko,
Once again some valid points however they do relate to an individuals personal circumstances,it may be worth remembering that same visionary that backed your original VMX concept also had the vision to support the original Thumpa Nats series which covered effectively a tri state format in its forumulative years,and the thing just grew from there,the Vets and the Evo where the backbone of that series initially and the Pro,s brought the spectators,
I have personally enjoyed the Pre 75 events for the couple of years that I competed and the Thumpa Nats for the few years that I competed in that,both great fun and enjoyable,that being the reason I drove all over the country to compete,and if it did not fit my budget I did not go and I would expect that most competitors being in the mature catergory would be smart enough not to sacrifice there home life and well being for this proposed series or any series of MX races,for that matter,
I wouldn't say your being negative but possibly you over annalising the situation on this forum,the closest comparable series is the Thumpa Nats and it's success can not be questioned,and I am pretty sure When,Eldridge,Ballard,Applegren and the others sat down and come up with that concept they looked for the positives more so than the negatives and the rest is history.and the end of the day it's racing and that is what we all enjoy either competing,spectating or being involved in administrating,so let's Tri State go racing.
#8
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At the end of the day it's a free country if someone wants to enter all the rounds they will, regardless of costs to them. If they sacrifice going to other events again, so be it, that's the nature of competition. Someone gets all those weekend passes and trips away with the boys good luck to you. ;D
The series is a winner.
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If they sacrifice going to other events again, so be it, that's the nature of competition.
This gets back to my original point. From a Victorian point of view, with 6 rounds of VIPER, Classic Dirt, the Nationals, Broadford Bike Bike Bonanza and a couple of practice days, something has got to give way in the name of economics.
My concern from the very outset is what it would do to a state based series if the core group of riders took their money and volunteering talents elsewhere. Are the state based titles robust enough to cope with parallel series?
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that same visionary that backed your original VMX concept also had the vision to support the original Thumpa Nats series
That's a good point but it's worth remembering that the original vintage concept and later the ThumperNats had no direct competition, they were new kids on the block with a free run to recruit new competitors. The Tri Series is drawing its competitors from an existing pool that's already well looked after.
If they sacrifice going to other events again, so be it, that's the nature of competition.
Sure, I accept that in our free enterprise system we all have the right to make our own choices. Unfortunately like any other business something else has to suffer for the other to succeed. I fail to see that creating the situation where one event would suffer at the expense of another will in any way benefit our sport. There is a serious threat of overcrowding the market. Remember that couple of years when we had two Rugby League competitions? Something had to give and the sport has never been the same since.
I've had a couple of PMs today aluding to me "having the shits" with some of the people behind the Tri Series proposal. Nothing could be further from the truth. I respect the guys behind this and aplaud their attempt at doing something for the sport. Magoo is my old drinking buddy and we've had this difference of opinion ad infinitum and I'm sure we'll continue to disagree on most things to do with our sport over a beer or two with no malice (despite his beer of choice being VB). My stance is purely philosophical and personal grievance has nothing whatsoever to do with my objection to the Tri Series. I merely want only the best for my sports future and fell that this debate needed a devils advocate to play 'bad cop to the good cop pro lobby.
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How about as a stepping stone to something like this, each state put together a team of riders for various classes at the next Nationals event. Everythings already in place, it'd be a bit of added fun and it'd show the commitment of people to be in a 'team' envionment. They could test out the problems of logistics, pooling resources and who's got the 'stickability' in seeing it through. ;) Actually I'd really like to see a few teams contest Viper one year in a similar fashion. You could still collect your individual winnings for the year but your points could go towards your 'team' as well.
As I say. The structures already there. :)
And for the umpteith time I am not against the state VMX three-some. I just keep hearing lots of people saying they're for it but not a lot of hands going up to take on the head-aches of such a series. And I'm sure there's only a handfull of dedicated individuals who could compete in such an event.
Fair game to 'em! ::)
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Good luck to anyone willing and able to organise such a series. If it keeps enthusiasts in the sport, then good luck to it.
The classes suggested will not interest me, but the sport will gain from this type of event.
Whether everyone attends every event doesn't matter, so long as good fields hit the grids. I guarantee that the current modern Nats would fall by the wayside, or even possibly reduce to a similar series, without the sponsorship megabucks from manufacturers and dealers!
The average enthusiast willing to support these classes should be encouraged, however the organisational workload would be considerably reduced by running the rounds in conjunction with a modern event in each state.
Modern tracks like Gum Valley in Queensland (nominated as the most popular and best organised track/round in the National series - thought I'd throw in that plug for the Koumala guys), often invite and encourage the vintage riders to compete as additional events on their race days.
An event like this, even if it's necessary to combine classes depending on numbers, would make it possible to test the waters so to speak. Then if numbers and volunteer organisers were available, then go for a separate series.
Mike
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that same visionary that backed your original VMX concept also had the vision to support the original Thumpa Nats series
That's a good point but it's worth remembering that the original vintage concept and later the ThumperNats had no direct competition, they were new kids on the block with a free run to recruit new competitors. The Tri Series is drawing its competitors from an existing pool that's already well looked after.
If they sacrifice going to other events again, so be it, that's the nature of competition.
Sure, I accept that in our free enterprise system we all have the right to make our own choices. Unfortunately like any other business something else has to suffer for the other to succeed. I fail to see that creating the situation where one event would suffer at the expense of another will in any way benefit our sport. There is a serious threat of overcrowding the market. Remember that couple of years when we had two Rugby League competitions? Something had to give and the sport has never been the same since.
I've had a couple of PMs today aluding to me "having the shits" with some of the people behind the Tri Series proposal. Nothing could be further from the truth. I respect the guys behind this and aplaud their attempt at doing something for the sport. Magoo is my old drinking buddy and we've had this difference of opinion ad infinitum and I'm sure we'll continue to disagree on most things to do with our sport over a beer or two with no malice (despite his beer of choice being VB). My stance is purely philosophical and personal grievance has nothing whatsoever to do with my objection to the Tri Series. I merely want only the best for my sports future and fell that this debate needed a devils advocate to play 'bad cop to the good cop pro lobby.
Firko,
If I understand the proposal correctly it is to give the EVO,PRE 85 & PRE 90 guys a run that there not necessarily getting at the moment at state level in some instances and in the PRE 90 class at the Nats so it would appear there is little risk of effecting other events(direct competition) to a great extent,Firko,as the initiator of the Pre 75 movement all those years ago and the obsticales you encountered would it be possibles to offer some of the ways that you overcame these obsticales to Magoo and the interested parties,it would be great to see you on board as at the end of the day where all in the same boat with this sport,
#8
#8
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I'm stunned. I've sat back for the last couple of weeks and watched blokes go ballistic over what is nothing short of an idea. There is no series as yet, just an idea discussed over a couple of beers and a few phone calls between myself, Kaw440 in Victoria and my old mate STW in Queensland. IT IS AN IDEA FOR CHRISTS SAKE!!!!!
There is every chance it may not work but what do you do, give up without even bothering to give it some sort of a go?? One thing that interests me is that we've gone 14 pages discussing something that is just an idea at this stage so maybe it has merit.
I'm sure Bahnsy is blinded in personal dislike for someone involved which is sad, block it out for both yours and the sports sake and everything will be ok.
And I know where Firko is coming from, if you want to run with a new idea it is a great idea to be prepared for any pitfalls which might rear their ugly heads. You go in blind, you're dead for sure. (although the only way I could spend $3,000 in fuel from Melbourne to Brisbane would be in Firkos Lear jet). And anyway, the day me and the big fella agree on ANYTHING I'm giving it away. I still blame Kevin Rudd, the most boring human being on the face of the planet.
My original idea was something along the lines of "The Awesome '80s" for bikes made in the 80's (including 1978/79 models as well of course).
It's made for you Firko because you wouldn't have to change your wardrobe, you'd fit in perfectly.
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I'm stunned. I've sat back for the last couple of weeks and watched blokes go ballistic over what is nothing short of an idea. There is no series as yet, just an idea discussed over a couple of beers and a few phone calls between myself, Kaw440 in Victoria and my old mate STW in Queensland. IT IS AN IDEA FOR CHRISTS SAKE!!!!!
There is every chance it may not work but what do you do, give up without even bothering to give it some sort of a go?? One thing that interests me is that we've gone 14 pages discussing something that is just an idea at this stage so maybe it has merit.
I'm sure Bahnsy is blinded in personal dislike for someone involved which is sad, block it out for both yours and the sports sake and everything will be ok.
And I know where Firko is coming from, if you want to run with a new idea it is a great idea to be prepared for any pitfalls which might rear their ugly heads. You go in blind, you're dead for sure. (although the only way I could spend $3,000 in fuel from Melbourne to Brisbane would be in Firkos Lear jet). And anyway, the day me and the big fella agree on ANYTHING I'm giving it away. I still blame Kevin Rudd, the most boring human being on the face of the planet.
My original idea was something along the lines of "The Awesome '80s" for bikes made in the 80's (including 1978/79 models as well of course).
It's made for you Firko because you wouldn't have to change your wardrobe, you'd fit in perfectly.
Okay Magoo take THE "IDEA FOR CHRISTS SAKE!!!!!" to the next level,there seems to be a reasonable amount of support for this "IDEA" have a "CRACK"
#8
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Yep i agree with many comments here about it being for 78-89 model bikes. There is a market for it and the pre 90 could entice a few of the guys who normally ride moderns and wouldnt be interested in 'vintage' I think having 78-89 bikes as the target era will give them the attention they need and from what i have read there are a lot of guys with pre 90 bikes itching for some sort of event aimed specifically at them. I dont think pre 78, pre 75, pre 70 etc has anything to worry about, this proposed tri series is ment for guys who are into the 1980's era of bikes. Take a look at UK, they fully support pre 90 and theres talk of pre 95. My only critisim is that i would like to see a separate 4 stroke class at the tri series, for people to re-live the 80's and build up 'hot' White Brothers and Protec TT's, Ballards & White Brothers XR's etc etc.
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Just like magoo said i also have watched this thred and if the amount of negativity was moved into positivity australia would have the best vintage racing in the world bar none all we have done is talked about this over the phone and at the titles now it is public there seems to be many who have nothing to add but a negative cloud over this idea in the same light there is a lot of positive input as well so if you are one that is in no favour of this IDEA then find something that helps you sleep remember there is some classes in vintage that dont suit all so understand this if it is not your era then dont mock it as i would expect the same from the outher side of the fence vintage cannot stay in one era for it enternity it will have no future and just for the guys that dont know me KAW440 i am simon healy as barnsy put in his post some hide behind their forum names i dont
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Magoo - 12 pages eh - I know you have problems past ten but..................... :-*
hey guys - why is it that if somebody has an opinion which doesn't support an idea it is negative or deemed to be bad? Do all opinions on this forum have to be in support - surely then as I am sure is Firkos intent pitfalls turn up down the track which weren't thought of in the first place. I have tried to read this whole thread as being two sides to an argument (which there always should be) with both sides needing consideration for any concept to get off the ground.
Lighten up - consider both sides and as some have said - put your hand up if this is to go anywhere? People that have significant experience in the sport should be listened to even if what you are hearing you don't always like.
Can I also have a ride in that lear Jet please Firko/Magoo ;D
Rossco
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I'm sure Bahnsy is blinded in personal dislike for someone involved which is sad, block it out for both yours and the sports sake and everything will be ok.
I have no dislike for anyone linked to this discussion and I am curious as to how that comment came about. Whilst I might not agree with individuals thought process, I would like to think that I show respect in all manner of communication, regardless of the topic.
That said it would be rather bland if it was all one way traffic. Personally I don't understand why it is seen as negative when you ask the curly questions and seek answers to what i may see as erroneous points. In any case a handful of naysayer’s will have no impact on the eventual outcome.
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I don't think it's been too negative.
Its good to be open for discussion and visualize the future of VMX.
What is disappointing/negative is that there has only been a hand full of people discussing the Tri Series idea.
cheers
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*There is no room on the vintage motocross calendar for yet another grab on the purse strings. We saw this year that Victorians were unwilling to attend both Classic Dirt and the Nats due to financial constraints. They either attended CD6 or the Nats, very few did both and the majority did neither. This in itself should set off a few alarm bells that by adding yet another cash outlay to the already tight system the calendar is being overloaded. The lack of a serious entry roll up for the Dirt Track Nats is yet another example of the limited funds out there in VMXland. While trying to drum up some extra entries for the Dirt Track Nats I recieved the "I've used up all of my racing and travel funds (and home brownie points!) on the Nats and CD6" reply more often than I'd even expected. I'm a self funded retiree who got out on a pretty good government superannuation yet I've still got to seriously watch my pennies. I was once one of the the pre 90 demographic of the "thirty something" with a mortgage, working wife, school age kids and a lot of debt and know I would have battled to get to just two of these events let alone all of them.
So what?
Its a competitive market place, and if people prefer to go to the TriSeries over the Nats or CD7, then that's their choice.
More to the point, if they chose to do the Tri-Series over the other options, then its clear that those other options are not meeting a demand. To 'force' people into doing these 'second-choice' options by killing off the Tri-Series, is to deny the sport the opportunity to grow.
The alternative is to keep plodding away with the same-old same-old, which grows tired and stale, no matter how good the idea is.
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There were only around 35 entries for HEAVENS second biggest event, the Evo Challenge at Clarence today. It seems that riders won't even support their own club and ride locally let alone expect them to go on a two day journey. :-\
Fix up what we've got.
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I'm obviously the wrong personality type for this sport, because I don't think that every single decision, event type, event date, or bike should focus entirely on what I want.
The sooner we all realise that we've got more in common than different to each other, and that sometimes we just have to go with the flow, the sooner this sport can prosper again.
Why weren't these arguments put up against the birth of Vinduro?
Why is the Broadford Bike Bonanza's impact on Classic Dirt convienently being ignored?
Would the negativity have the same potency and the same volume if the Tri-Series was going to be primarily about pre-65, pre-70 and pre-75? Really?
I'm on a hair trigger for the world's biggest bridge-burning dummy spit, because I'm seriously fed up with the self centred attitudes of few too many of us.
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I'm obviously the wrong personality type for this sport, because I don't think that every single decision, event type, event date, or bike should focus entirely on what I want.
The sooner we all realise that we've got more in common than different to each other, and that sometimes we just have to go with the flow, the sooner this sport can prosper again.
I don't quite get your points here. I can't see what you're getting so excited about.
Why weren't these arguments put up against the birth of Vinduro?
Because Vinduro is a good concept that is not intruding on an existing event or set of events. It's all new.
Why is the Broadford Bike Bonanza's impact on Classic Dirt convienently being ignored
Where were you that week? There was quite a kerfuffle both on the forum and behind the scenes. It's still going on.
Would the negativity have the same potency and the same volume if the Tri-Series was going to be primarily about pre-65, pre-70 and pre-75? Really?
From me it would, I can't speak for the others. I don't think it's a very good idea, no matter what era of racing it includes. You may notice Nathan that if it does go ahead I think it should be purely for pre 90.
I'm on a hair trigger for the world's biggest bridge-burning dummy spit, because I'm seriously fed up with the self centred attitudes of few too many of us.
I certainly hope you're not referring to me in that sweeping statement Nathan. I'm merely offering up my opinion on why I think a Tri Series won't work at the moment. I've said a number of times that the idea is good but won't work at the present time for the numerous reasons stated. I've been around this sport long enough to know that riders just won't travel. It's a f**king fact that can't be avoided. Todays mighty effort from HEAVENS members can be summed up in two words. F**king disgraceful and indicitive of the problems that need to be solved. My whole problem with the Tri Series is purely based on the travel logistics. I have no problems with the pre 90 class being the feature division.
You seem to have a problem with me, jumping on many of my opinions and that's fine. Don't however confuse my right to have an opinion that differs to yours as me being self centered.
This is starting to show the potential of turning into another shitfight. I'm way past arguing the toss and have made my points as clearly as I could. You can agree with me or disagree, that's your free will. Getting into a dummy spit would be counter productive to the discussion I would think. Learn to live with the fact that we all disagree on things from time to time. That's life. Lifes too short to get all worked up over something that doesn't exist. It's only a discussion point. I've made my points and that's it for me on this subject.
Thank you and Good Night. ;)
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Just on the BBB, do you remember how everyone was saying that it was going to hurt Classic Dirt, and that it was wrong and all the rest?
And then we had the biggest CD ever. ::)
I'm just getting very intolerant of the attitude of many, where they expect everything to be exactly how they want - and then they get all snotty and insolent if it doesn't happen that way... This the real reason the sport is supposedly in the doldrums in NSW, not any failing of Heaven.
How often do you hear anyone say "That's not how I'd do it, but its a good idea"?
How often do you hear anyone say "That's not my cup of tea, but I reckon you lot will have a ball doing it"?
Basically never. And that's a very, VERY poor reflection on an otherwise good bunch of blokes (and I say blokes because our two regular female posters actually seem to be capable of saying such things).
Its always "That won't work", or "That doesn't suit me, I see why everybody hates that club"... Since when did we all become such a bunch of prima-donnas?
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I think it would be fair to say that BBB did have some small effect on CD6, but that effect is probably negligable because the issues of travel distance from the southern states to QLD would probably have had a larger effect on people's decisions to go to CD6 or not.
I think it's probably more relevant to say that CD6 may have had a negative effect on the BBB. ;)
As far as the poor attendance at the EVO Challenge is concerned, that is very disappointing indeed. Maybe there should be some kind of post mortum to work out why the numbers were so low.
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I do think the number of events has an impact. As others have noted, there are now so many quality events racers are able to be choosy about what to attend. While I think the Tri-State sounds great in theory, it might be pushing it to get a decent rollup, or at least a rollup of riders who attend more than one. I haven't followed this thread all that closely, however making it a Pre 90 series would definitely be worth considering as the field to draw from is at least a little different to the strictly vintage crowd. I don't see that you could tack it onto any modern event/series as there are two many classes to make that viable. But a three round series run at suitable venues aimed at Pre 85 and pre 90 classes has a pretty reasonable chance of being a goer, whereas I really doubt a true vintage series would work.
As for HEAVEN, dunno. Perhaps the several big events so far this year plus the VERY recent Nats and very soon DT Nats had an effect? I would like to see a little more advertising of these events myself. I have noticed that a few clubs are starting to fall behind the eight ball with letting people know what's on and when. No disrespect to HEAVEN, but in the past advertising was pushed more enthusiastically, and earlier. I think with the number of events now, clubs have to be much more proactive in letting people know what's on and when. I see a real need to have a very switched on approach to marketing now that we actually have competition for riders to attend an event... It's my opinion that about the best example of that is Siege in the States with his VDR and Hammer and Tongs series.
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Thought about this some more and other events, if you want to run some significant event I suggest you try and get it in early in the year for the Calender... :o
Back to modern-- ::) :-X The WA State rounds have finished and now all the clubs are getting in there events as ..No events are to run on a state round weekend...so the next 6 weeks are MX events for us with a budget of nil :-\ crazy times.
oh yer and marketing and publicity are the way to go 8)
VMXWA 15th Birthday next year -some big names coming our way 2010 ;) ;D
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It will be held at Narrogin, the VMXWA home track which is around 2 hours south of Perth. Scene of the club's two biggest meetings, the 10th Anniversary bash in 204, and the VMX Nats of 2006, with guest stars Jeff Smith and Jimmy Aird. It is a wide, loamy, hilly, graded track of around 1.9km which is lovingly graded and prepped, and because it's in WA, is sidecar-friendly.... ;)
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Sounds tempting , whats the date ?
Don't know about the home track 15th birthday bash date ,but the Wandering (20 minutes from the home track) is always held in August ---now that's the one for sidecars :-*
Pretty well will be enjoying the 15th Anniversary all year I reckon ;) ;D actually I enjoy ever year at VMX
now this is a thread hijack :-X
cheers
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I think there is enough support around to get a pre85/pre90 series off the ground. Its hard to gauge support for new events so hopefully the guys will get it up and running and we'll see how it works out. Its quite possible that this type of series will appeal to a new demographic not currently catered to in VMX and therefore bring out some new riders.
I think if you build it they will come! and it will inject new riders and enthusiasm into VMX.
As far as the problem of people not wanting to travel, I'm not trying to speak for all Vic riders but in my circle of friends that race our collective opinion is why travel interstate when we are spoilt for options in Victoria and there appears to be little or no support for Pre85/90 racing anywhere else.
While there may be some crossover between bike shows/swap meets and racing I think they appeal to different crowds so Im not sure comparisons between CD/BBB and race meetings are relevant. There is no way I would drive interstate to ride my bike around in a non competitive event and to have a waffle around a swap meet but I'm definitely up for a trip for a race meeting. I just hope they run it as a "Series" or a "Challenge" for a few years and not a championship as it seems as soon as a race meeting has "Championship" status all the BS begins, it also puts off the guys who really just want to ride for a bit of fun.
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I think there is enough support around to get a pre85/pre90 series off the ground. Its hard to gauge support for new events so hopefully the guys will get it up and running and we'll see how it works out. Its quite possible that this type of series will appeal to a new demographic not currently catered to in VMX and therefore bring out some new riders.
I think if you build it they will come! and it will inject new riders and enthusiasm into VMX.
As far as the problem of people not wanting to travel, I'm not trying to speak for all Vic riders but in my circle of friends that race our collective opinion is why travel interstate when we are spoilt for options in Victoria and there appears to be little or no support for Pre85/90 racing anywhere else.
While there may be some crossover between bike shows/swap meets and racing I think they appeal to different crowds so Im not sure comparisons between CD/BBB and race meetings are relevant. There is no way I would drive interstate to ride my bike around in a non competitive event and to have a waffle around a swap meet but I'm definitely up for a trip for a race meeting. I just hope they run it as a "Series" or a "Challenge" for a few years and not a championship as it seems as soon as a race meeting has "Championship" status all the BS begins, it also puts off the guys who really just want to ride for a bit of fun.
Mick22,I don't understand what you want to do "race or have fun"...some times BS is all within the Challenge,visa versa.. :o
I believe there is a few 85 & 90's in Queensland.
I find your post a bit like I want the whole cake and eat it too...sorry to offend. :-[
cheers
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to add to Allison comments - Annual Wandering meet next year 15th August - 15th Anniversary meet 27th, 28th and 29th August. VMXWA
cheers
Rossco
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Who wouldn't want the whole cake and eat it too..... never really got that expression ;D
To clear it up, I like good hard racing not just going out for a toodle around. But each to their own if guys want to cruise around or ride non competitive events.....good on em it takes all sorts!
A Championship in modern racing is all about the pinnacle of the best riders and machines and all the dramas that that take to win the championship. All the difficulties in winning are what makes it worthwhile.
Unfortunately from what I have witnessed in Classic racing whether it be VMX, road racing or car racing etc, the minute the words classic and championship are put together it forms some form of powerfull BS magnet. Most of the reports from the local races talk about the good time had by all but when it comes to championship events there are countless pages about footpeg springs, wrong triple clamps etc etc where are the pages and pages about the great racing, the great rides and bikes? All of the crap detracts from the actual championship.
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I also would only travel interstate if it was a hardcore race championship.
The bikes still have to be period correct.
Ji
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The bikes still have to be period correct.
Ji
I agree, the rules are the rules.
Justifying dodgy parts/bikes with excuses like..."it only matters if you win" or "this triple clamp is not going to make me any faster" is a blight on the sport. The sooner we have log books, the better
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Most of the reports from the local races talk about the good time had by all but when it comes to championship events there are countless pages about footpeg springs, wrong triple clamps etc etc where are the pages and pages about the great racing, the great rides and bikes? All of the crap detracts from the actual championship.
Mick22, what seems to be the case in 99.9% of the time, is the BS is here on the forum. When you go to the meetings, they are all good. Only the very odd occasion would there be any sort of shite fight at a meeting.
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Most of the reports from the local races talk about the good time had by all but when it comes to championship events there are countless pages about footpeg springs, wrong triple clamps etc etc where are the pages and pages about the great racing, the great rides and bikes? All of the crap detracts from the actual championship.
Mick22, what seems to be the case in 99.9% of the time, is the BS is here on the forum. When you go to the meetings, they are all good. Only the very odd occasion would there be any sort of shite fight at a meeting.
Aint that the truth!
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Hopefully Drakie and his fellow vintage officials pulls a state's classic round out of the hat for the Nats-
round 2 say three races only being held at CD7 with of course VMX mags approval . ;) ;D .
3rd and last round here in the west :P in August.............how hard can it all be 8)
cheers