Author Topic: 2010 VMX Tri Series  (Read 35489 times)

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Offline VMX247

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Re: 2010 VMX Tri Series
« Reply #150 on: September 12, 2009, 10:29:40 pm »
pencil me in for Farley Heights , the real  thing.  ;)

yep sure and don't you think that would be a truck load of organizing for that event  ;D
cheers
Best is in the West !!

Offline Nathan S

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Re: 2010 VMX Tri Series
« Reply #151 on: September 12, 2009, 10:34:38 pm »
It appers at the moment , pre 90 pushers are people that never got any medals in modern or cant afford to buy a modern  bike . But Vintage it is not . :D

Is that relevant?
The point is that there is a market for it, and someone is talking about catering to that market.


I'm not anything official to do with Heaven, beyond being a member - I certainly haven't been trying to be a spokesperson for the club - my apologies if anyone has thought that.
Lozza is just another member like me. oz555 is the Heaven president.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 10:37:41 pm by Nathan S »
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline motomaniac

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Re: 2010 VMX Tri Series
« Reply #152 on: September 12, 2009, 10:48:26 pm »
pencil me in for Farley Heights , the real  thing.  ;)

Whats Farley Heights?

Offline VMX247

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Re: 2010 VMX Tri Series
« Reply #153 on: September 12, 2009, 11:01:10 pm »
pencil me in for Farley Heights , the real  thing.  ;)
Whats Farley Heights?
in here
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=9579.0

quote:
I'm not anything official to do with Heaven, beyond being a member - I certainly haven't been trying to be a spokesperson for the club - my apologies if anyone has thought that.
Lozza is just another member like me. oz555 is the Heaven presid

Suppose it doesn't matter who is who  --we are all here for VMX  :P
Best is in the West !!

Offline number8

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Re: 2010 VMX Tri Series
« Reply #154 on: September 13, 2009, 06:09:58 am »
Of the people listed below, who represents QVMX, HEAVEN & VIPER and their respective comittees as an elected spokesperson?
No8, motomaniac, Lozza, damo, Caps, Simon Healy, STW996, Kaw440, OZ555ktm, Nathan & Worms.
(NB: I think you may find that 1 or more of the above are 1 in the same person; ie their real name and alias are both listed)

Bahnsy,

I am not an elected member of anything,however this concept has been put forward and having been in a similar position as the proposers in the past I will support them 100% as it sounds to me to be a good concept and the original proposal of EVO,PRE 85 & PRE 90 are classes that are not supported at every VMX meeting in each State and could use a STAND ALONE event or series,Now there has been a lot of comments on this thread some valid some not as a believer I think the proposers should go for it,and if they are unsure of anything there are enough people out there in VMX & MX land that have had experience and could lend assistance by way of advice or physical input,

There are several ways these events could be run,they can be run in a low key way or a way that can potentially generate revenue for the Clubs involved,I personally think the idea of having Moderns should be adjusted,to a Full on Vets on Modern Class this would give some of the more recent past Stars an opportunity to compete much in the way that the Vets Cup worked at the last round of the Australian MX championship and the reason I suggest this is that   there is potential to promote this to the Media,Sponsors and Spectators get this combination right then you are virtually guaranteed a healthy revenue stream,which then gives each club the ability to grow there round and the series,The other reason I suggest Vets is the track layout can be designed to suit the EVO,PRE 85 & PRE 90,classes which will be more than suitable for a few out of shape Modern Vet riders,(no crazy jumps or stutters) .

To move the concept forward the clubs that are interested in each state need to start communicating,you should put one Coordinator in place and then bring in some people to support him that can handle Media type issue's and Sponsor re cruiting, and let the Clubs conduct the meetings in exactly the same way they have been,and if the interested parties are still a bit unsure just look back at the Thumper Nats for ideas,I have said in previous posts you don't need to re invent the wheel adopt a concept that worked extremely well in the past.

It can be done the doubters are always entitled to there opinion,however it is unfair to attempt to trample on someone else's Via the Forum,if they have not actually been in the position of conducting this style of event/series

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Re: 2010 VMX Tri Series
« Reply #155 on: September 13, 2009, 09:57:02 am »
Talk is cheap , the back bone is pre 75  , when do you get it ? Pre 90is is old moderns . Which corporate sponsor would back a serie with no soul ?

When will you get it? They are the next step in the evolution of vintage mx. That statement is right up there with ' music is the tool of the devil'.

It appers at the moment , pre 90 pushers are people that never got any medals in modern or cant afford to buy a modern  bike . But Vintage it is not . :D
I can afford a modern AND I have medals from when I raced, so wrong again.
I suppose that leaves you open to the fact that you cant ride a two wheeler so you end up on a sidecar. Spiteful I know, but you aren't exactly nice with your comments.
I think we all get it that according to you the world ended in 1975. No need to rubbish something you have no interest in. Just stick to what you like.
Also on the sponsorship side of things. Guys in there 30's and 40's seem to reach further into their pockets and would be a good target market. And these are the guys who are into pre 85 and pre 90 in general .
Just be careful next time you go overseas. Dont sail too far as you may fall off the end!

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Re: 2010 VMX Tri Series
« Reply #156 on: September 13, 2009, 11:21:04 am »
At the risk of being accused of being a negative old curmudgeon again. I've got a few more random thoughts on the TRI Series.
*As much as I'm a stalwart for the pre '75 movement, I reckon the Tri Series should be limited to Evo/Pre 85/pre 90. Most of the behind the scenes lobbyists for the series are gung ho Pre 90 guys so I'd let them run loose with their dream without the restriction of having to deal with a division of the sport that (as I've been continually told) is dying. Let the success or failure of the series be totally down to their vision of the future of VMX.

*Because the pre 90 movement has more in common with modern motocross than with traditional vintage motocross, I think the Tri Series should join with a modern series, in a similar way to the old twin shock class was tied in with the ThumperNats a decade ago. That may draw more new racers out of the modern movement, eager for another ride and would then flow on to them becoming a part of the regular pre 90 "vintage" scene.

*I know I'm repeating myself here but nobody seems to have a serious answer to the problem. The vintage movement is essentially a self funded, working class sport. Most of the competitors are average guys with average jobs and the usual mortgages, car payments, school fees and myriad of outgoing expences to deal with. Most of those guys have normal jobs that require you to be there a minimum of 5 days a week. For a Victorian to travel 1500km to the series would require two days minimum away from work in addition to the two day weekend=4 days, and spend up to 3k on fuel for the round trip, not counting accomodation, food and drink, and the many incidentals like bike preparation, car wear and tear etc. This could bring the outlay up to $4000 for just one round of the series. Halve it for the Sydney round and add the usual expences for the local round and you have around $7000 outlay to cover the series. Of course some could do it cheaper and others would spend more but my point is that for the average racer from the pre 90 class demographic who lives in Victoria or Queensland is up for some serious expenditure that needs to be justified. Those living in NSW, the 'middle' state don't have quite the travel expenditure but $5000 would be a fair guess for their outlay. Of course trailer and car pooling greatly reduces those costs but in the end they're still substantial.

* Now, presuming the Tri Series takes off and they are inundated with entries, the money tree must surely run out of fruit and something will suffer. I doubt that many would be dumb enough to bypass their mortgage or family expenditure for something like a motorcycle series so something else must miss out. To me that would be one or both of the existing blue ribbon events, the Nationals and Classic Dirt. I'd be very surprised to see too many Vics at Classic Dirt or Queenslanders at the Nats if they'd committed their funds to the Tri Series so my point to this is.......

*There is no room on the vintage motocross calendar for yet another grab on the purse strings. We saw this year that Victorians were unwilling to attend both Classic Dirt and the Nats due to financial constraints. They either attended CD6 or the Nats, very few did both and the majority did neither. This in itself should set off a few alarm bells that by adding yet another cash outlay to the already tight system the calendar is being overloaded. The lack of a serious entry roll up for the Dirt Track Nats is yet another example of the limited funds out there in VMXland. While trying to drum up some extra entries for the Dirt Track Nats I recieved the "I've used up all of my racing and travel funds (and home brownie points!) on the Nats and CD6" reply more often than I'd even expected. I'm a self funded retiree who got out on a pretty good government superannuation yet I've still got to seriously watch my pennies. I was once one of the the pre 90 demographic of the "thirty something" with a mortgage, working wife, school age kids and a lot of debt and know I would have battled to get to just two of these events let alone all of them.

*I'm being accused of being negative towards the Tri Series idea and to some eyes that's probably right. However, I ask those who've called me negative if they will be seriously committing themselves to a three round series, The Nats and CD7 in 2010? I doubt it, something has to give. To my way of thinking the Tri Series is a good idea thats time hasn't come yet. Our sport can't handle yet another big event in the current structure and world financial situation. I'm not negative, I've been positive about this sport for far longer than anyone. What I am however is a realist who doesn't want to see anything detrimental happen to a sport that's just getting back on its feet after 10 years in the doldrums. I've seen a lot of dream weavers come along with the latest "great idea" and nearly all of them have failed because the proposers didn't look hard enough at the big picture. The best thing we can do for VMX right now is to perfect the classing systems we've already got in place, demystify the rulebook, improve participation in the events already on the calendar and keep the progress steady rather than jumping ahead with too many "wouldn't it be a good idea if"  brain flashes.

I'll now open a James Squire Amber Ale, go sit on the porch and spoke a rear wheel for my Cheney confident that some will still totally miss my point and accuse me of being negative. C'est la vie  ;)


« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 11:58:30 am by firko »

Offline Wombat

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Re: 2010 VMX Tri Series
« Reply #157 on: September 13, 2009, 12:51:33 pm »
Hmmm, quite a thread; I won't hit the quote button to lump in Firko's weighty post but I mostly agree with him.
An idea or concept is one thing (VMX Tri Series), but getting VMX people to commit - given the size of our wide brown land - is quite another.
Could it work in New Zealand? Maybe it could.
It appears they have passionate and committed numbers - and it's a small-ish island - so travel isn't really an issue.
But in OZ across State borders... I don't think so.
 
And for me personally I think pre 85 and pre 90 would slot nicely with the moderns if you need to run both on the day for financial reasons.
These two classes are not too far removed from moderns and are less likely to 'offend' modern riders on a joint track day.
To me they're 'old moderns' as some others here have stated - and that's my honest opinion so don't read any perceived nastiness into it.

But Evo... Evo is currently a part of VMX - and should stay - whereas the 'newer' classes are yet to be fully accepted.
If - as mentioned in other threads - these two classes (85/90) were kept separate from VMX they'd tag along with their modern cousins.
I'm sure their numbers will increase, but I don't think 'Vintage' or 'Classic' is an appropriate name for this group.
And I'm not trying to 'jack the thread with the tired old inclusion or not of the '85/90 bikes.
But for an 'older bike' Tri Series to work at all, I think they could tag onto the moderns and make it financially viable.

So, please let me know - without getting bent out of shape... ::)
"Whadaya mean it's too loud?! It's a f*ckin' race bike!! That pipe makes it go louder - and look faster!!"

Offline number8

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Re: 2010 VMX Tri Series
« Reply #158 on: September 13, 2009, 01:46:52 pm »
At the risk of being accused of being a negative old curmudgeon again. I've got a few more random thoughts on the TRI Series.
*As much as I'm a stalwart for the pre '75 movement, I reckon the Tri Series should be limited to Evo/Pre 85/pre 90. Most of the behind the scenes lobbyists for the series are gung ho Pre 90 guys so I'd let them run loose with their dream without the restriction of having to deal with a division of the sport that (as I've been continually told) is dying. Let the success or failure of the series be totally down to their vision of the future of VMX.

*Because the pre 90 movement has more in common with modern motocross than with traditional vintage motocross, I think the Tri Series should join with a modern series, in a similar way to the old twin shock class was tied in with the ThumperNats a decade ago. That may draw more new racers out of the modern movement, eager for another ride and would then flow on to them becoming a part of the regular pre 90 "vintage" scene.

*I know I'm repeating myself here but nobody seems to have a serious answer to the problem. The vintage movement is essentially a self funded, working class sport. Most of the competitors are average guys with average jobs and the usual mortgages, car payments, school fees and myriad of outgoing expences to deal with. Most of those guys have normal jobs that require you to be there a minimum of 5 days a week. For a Victorian to travel 1500km to the series would require two days minimum away from work in addition to the two day weekend=4 days, and spend up to 3k on fuel for the round trip, not counting accomodation, food and drink, and the many incidentals like bike preparation, car wear and tear etc. This could bring the outlay up to $4000 for just one round of the series. Halve it for the Sydney round and add the usual expences for the local round and you have around $7000 outlay to cover the series. Of course some could do it cheaper and others would spend more but my point is that for the average racer from the pre 90 class demographic who lives in Victoria or Queensland is up for some serious expenditure that needs to be justified. Those living in NSW, the 'middle' state don't have quite the travel expenditure but $5000 would be a fair guess for their outlay. Of course trailer and car pooling greatly reduces those costs but in the end they're still substantial.

* Now, presuming the Tri Series takes off and they are inundated with entries, the money tree must surely run out of fruit and something will suffer. I doubt that many would be dumb enough to bypass their mortgage or family expenditure for something like a motorcycle series so something else must miss out. To me that would be one or both of the existing blue ribbon events, the Nationals and Classic Dirt. I'd be very surprised to see too many Vics at Classic Dirt or Queenslanders at the Nats if they'd committed their funds to the Tri Series so my point to this is.......

*There is no room on the vintage motocross calendar for yet another grab on the purse strings. We saw this year that Victorians were unwilling to attend both Classic Dirt and the Nats due to financial constraints. They either attended CD6 or the Nats, very few did both and the majority did neither. This in itself should set off a few alarm bells that by adding yet another cash outlay to the already tight system the calendar is being overloaded. The lack of a serious entry roll up for the Dirt Track Nats is yet another example of the limited funds out there in VMXland. While trying to drum up some extra entries for the Dirt Track Nats I recieved the "I've used up all of my racing and travel funds (and home brownie points!) on the Nats and CD6" reply more often than I'd even expected. I'm a self funded retiree who got out on a pretty good government superannuation yet I've still got to seriously watch my pennies. I was once one of the the pre 90 demographic of the "thirty something" with a mortgage, working wife, school age kids and a lot of debt and know I would have battled to get to just two of these events let alone all of them.

*I'm being accused of being negative towards the Tri Series idea and to some eyes that's probably right. However, I ask those who've called me negative if they will be seriously committing themselves to a three round series, The Nats and CD7 in 2010? I doubt it, something has to give. To my way of thinking the Tri Series is a good idea thats time hasn't come yet. Our sport can't handle yet another big event in the current structure and world financial situation. I'm not negative, I've been positive about this sport for far longer than anyone. What I am however is a realist who doesn't want to see anything detrimental happen to a sport that's just getting back on its feet after 10 years in the doldrums. I've seen a lot of dream weavers come along with the latest "great idea" and nearly all of them have failed because the proposers didn't look hard enough at the big picture. The best thing we can do for VMX right now is to perfect the classing systems we've already got in place, demystify the rulebook, improve participation in the events already on the calendar and keep the progress steady rather than jumping ahead with too many "wouldn't it be a good idea if"  brain flashes.

I'll now open a James Squire Amber Ale, go sit on the porch and spoke a rear wheel for my Cheney confident that some will still totally miss my point and accuse me of being negative. C'est la vie  ;)




Firko,

Once again some valid points however they do relate to an individuals personal circumstances,it may be worth remembering that same visionary that backed your original VMX concept also had the vision to support the original Thumpa Nats series which covered effectively a tri state format in its forumulative years,and the thing just grew from there,the Vets and the Evo where the backbone of that series initially and the Pro,s brought the spectators,

I have personally enjoyed the Pre 75 events for the couple of years that I competed and the Thumpa Nats for the few years that I competed in that,both great fun and enjoyable,that being the reason I drove all over the country to compete,and if it did not fit my budget I did not go and I would expect that most competitors being in the mature catergory would be smart enough not to sacrifice there home life and well being for this proposed series or any series of MX races,for that matter,

I wouldn't say your being negative but possibly you over annalising the situation on this forum,the closest comparable series is the Thumpa Nats and it's success can not be questioned,and I am pretty sure When,Eldridge,Ballard,Applegren and the others sat down and come up with that concept they looked for the positives more so than the negatives and the rest is history.and the end of the day it's racing and that is what we all enjoy either competing,spectating or being involved in administrating,so let's Tri State go racing.

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Offline Lozza

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Re: 2010 VMX Tri Series
« Reply #159 on: September 13, 2009, 01:56:53 pm »
At the end of the day it's a free country if someone wants to enter all the rounds they will, regardless of costs to them. If they sacrifice going to other events again, so be it, that's the nature of competition. Someone gets  all those weekend passes and trips away with the boys good luck to you.  ;D
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Offline BAHNZY

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Re: 2010 VMX Tri Series
« Reply #160 on: September 13, 2009, 04:19:09 pm »
If they sacrifice going to other events again, so be it, that's the nature of competition.

This gets back to my original point. From a Victorian point of view, with 6 rounds of VIPER, Classic Dirt, the Nationals, Broadford Bike Bike Bonanza and a couple of practice days, something has got to give way in the name of economics.

My concern from the very outset is what it would do to a state based series if the core group of riders took their money and volunteering talents elsewhere. Are the state based titles robust enough to cope with parallel series?
Rod (BAHNZY) Bahn

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Re: 2010 VMX Tri Series
« Reply #161 on: September 13, 2009, 04:27:37 pm »
Quote
that same visionary that backed your original VMX concept also had the vision to support the original Thumpa Nats series
That's a good point but it's worth remembering that the original vintage concept and later the ThumperNats had no direct competition, they were new kids on the block with a free run to recruit new competitors. The Tri Series is drawing its competitors from an existing pool that's already well looked after.
Quote
If they sacrifice going to other events again, so be it, that's the nature of competition.
Sure, I accept that in our free enterprise system we all have the right to make our own choices. Unfortunately like any other business something else has to suffer for the other to succeed. I fail to see that creating the situation where one event would suffer at the expense of another will in any way benefit our sport. There is a serious threat of overcrowding the market. Remember that couple of years when we had two Rugby League competitions? Something had to give and the sport has never been the same since.

I've had a couple of PMs today aluding to me "having the shits" with some of the people behind the Tri Series proposal. Nothing could be further from the truth. I respect the guys behind this and aplaud their attempt at doing something for the sport. Magoo is my old drinking buddy and we've had this difference of opinion ad infinitum and I'm sure we'll continue to disagree on most things to do with our sport over a beer or two with no malice (despite his beer of choice being VB). My stance is purely philosophical and personal grievance has nothing whatsoever to do with my objection to the Tri Series. I merely want only the best for my sports future and fell that this debate needed a devils advocate to play 'bad cop to the good cop pro lobby.

All Things 414

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Re: 2010 VMX Tri Series
« Reply #162 on: September 13, 2009, 05:18:58 pm »
How about as a stepping stone to something like this, each state put together a team of riders for various classes at the next Nationals event. Everythings already in place, it'd be a bit of added fun and it'd show the commitment of people to be in a 'team' envionment. They could test out the problems of logistics, pooling resources and who's got the 'stickability' in seeing it through.  ;)  Actually I'd really like to see a few teams contest Viper one year in a similar fashion. You could still collect your individual winnings for the year but your points could go towards your 'team' as well.
As I say. The structures already there.  :)

And for the umpteith time I am not against the state VMX three-some. I just keep hearing lots of people saying they're for it but not a lot of hands going up to take on the head-aches of such a series. And I'm sure there's only a handfull of dedicated individuals who could compete in such an event.
Fair game to 'em! ::)

Offline mike1948

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Re: 2010 VMX Tri Series
« Reply #163 on: September 13, 2009, 05:42:01 pm »
Good luck to anyone willing and able to organise such a series.  If it keeps enthusiasts in the sport, then good luck to it.
The classes suggested will not interest me, but the sport will gain from this type of event.
Whether everyone attends every event doesn't matter, so long as good fields hit the grids.  I guarantee that the current modern Nats would fall by the wayside, or even possibly reduce to a similar series, without the sponsorship megabucks from manufacturers and dealers!
The average enthusiast willing to support these classes should be encouraged, however the organisational workload would be considerably reduced by running the rounds in conjunction with a modern event in each state.
Modern tracks like Gum Valley in Queensland (nominated as the most popular and best organised track/round in the National series - thought I'd throw in that plug for the Koumala guys), often invite and encourage the vintage riders to compete as additional events on their race days.
An event like this, even if it's necessary to combine classes depending on numbers, would make it possible to test the waters so to speak.  Then if numbers and volunteer organisers were available, then go for a separate series.
Mike

Offline number8

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Re: 2010 VMX Tri Series
« Reply #164 on: September 13, 2009, 05:45:21 pm »
Quote
that same visionary that backed your original VMX concept also had the vision to support the original Thumpa Nats series
That's a good point but it's worth remembering that the original vintage concept and later the ThumperNats had no direct competition, they were new kids on the block with a free run to recruit new competitors. The Tri Series is drawing its competitors from an existing pool that's already well looked after.
Quote
If they sacrifice going to other events again, so be it, that's the nature of competition.
Sure, I accept that in our free enterprise system we all have the right to make our own choices. Unfortunately like any other business something else has to suffer for the other to succeed. I fail to see that creating the situation where one event would suffer at the expense of another will in any way benefit our sport. There is a serious threat of overcrowding the market. Remember that couple of years when we had two Rugby League competitions? Something had to give and the sport has never been the same since.

I've had a couple of PMs today aluding to me "having the shits" with some of the people behind the Tri Series proposal. Nothing could be further from the truth. I respect the guys behind this and aplaud their attempt at doing something for the sport. Magoo is my old drinking buddy and we've had this difference of opinion ad infinitum and I'm sure we'll continue to disagree on most things to do with our sport over a beer or two with no malice (despite his beer of choice being VB). My stance is purely philosophical and personal grievance has nothing whatsoever to do with my objection to the Tri Series. I merely want only the best for my sports future and fell that this debate needed a devils advocate to play 'bad cop to the good cop pro lobby.

Firko,

If I understand the proposal correctly it is to give the EVO,PRE 85 & PRE 90 guys a run that there not necessarily getting at the moment at state level in some instances and in the PRE 90 class at the Nats so it would appear there is little risk of effecting other events(direct competition) to a great extent,Firko,as the initiator of the Pre 75 movement all those years ago and the obsticales you encountered would it be possibles to offer some of the ways that you overcame these obsticales to Magoo and the interested parties,it would be great to see you on board as at the end of the day where all in the same boat with this sport,

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