OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: magoo on October 26, 2007, 06:14:48 pm
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I was down at the Wagga Nationals last weekend and the fun we had was out of this world. We were drinking and bullshitting a lot, as you do, and the subject came up about where the old guys have gone to. I'm not even talking about guys from the early days of VMX but even the early days of the noughties.
I spoke to someone who went to Bulahdelah last weekend for the first time in 12 months and they only knew half a dozen people. I know most of the old timers and know for a fact 95% have still got their bikes and are still keen, but why aren't they turning up any more?
Any ideas?
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Magoose, I think that you will find that a lot of the good buggers have had enough of the NSW vmX politics and have moved on.I of course have moved back to the home of good looking sheep and great VMX tracks-Kiwi land!!
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Suzuki43, is this CT?
If you are CT, then you should have been at the N v's S meeting and then you could have added in the great piss-ups after the meeting ;D, and boy those sheep look even better at 5am ;) ;D
But on a more serious note, it is sad to hear that some of the older guys arent turning up to vmx meetings. If they feel they are getting a bit to brittle to be racing maybe the club could look at having a couple of "show your bike" rides were no racing is allowed. That way they still get to ride, the younger members still get the benefit of their knowledge, and everyone gets to see their bikes.
Politics and bikes dont go together, thats why we ride bikes,.... to get away from politics.
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well said
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The reasons for the older racers dropping from the program are as varied as the stars in the sky. Everything from business and family pressures, old age and its associated injuries, and dodgy club politics have all had their impact on falling numbers. As much as I don't wish to criticize club officials and the folks who go the hard yards organising clubs and events, it's a sad reality that certain officials have driven more people from the sport than they have encouraged. I've been working on this problem for a few years now and when I ask former competitors why they have dropped out of the sport, you can bet that the word 'wanker' will turn up somewhere in their explanation. Sadly according to those disheartened racers, the wanker quota gets thicker, the closer you getto the top in some clubs. While natural attrition would appear to be the main reason for the drop off in pre 75 and older classes, rude, overbearing officials and petty club politics seems to be the outstanding culprit in the Evo and later divisions.
Rather than expanding the sport by introducing later year cutoffs (pre 90 etc.) I reckon our eforts would be better spent rebuilding bridges the 'wanker faction' have destroyed and strive to get those missing racers back into the fold. As Magoo says, many of the disgruntled punters still have their bikes so why not try and lure them back to a solid, united sport that can offer a shitload of low key fun with minimal wanker interference.
I know that a lot of ex vintage racers are still interested enough to lurk on this forum from time to time. Using this thread, it'd be interesting to hear some of those 'retirees' reasons for dropping out. Remember though, no personal assasinations or slag attacks. We need to keep it all civil so we may be able to use the responses to help guide our sports future and to avoid losing future enthusiasts.
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Hi,
One of the reasons that you have seen me rabbiting on in the pre 90 thread is .
because as the current committee is not standing again next year , I have been approached to be on the committee of one of the NSW clubs,
I am only relatively new to VMX, and do not have a lot of history to draw on and comparisons,
to earlier years,
Hence my interest in what would help in moving forward in a positive way,.
purposely I haven't really been putting my personal views out there just trying to state
what I see as the facts and questioning some of the responses and trying to sort them as best I can
given the boundaries with which I see we have to work with,
So far I see that It may mean that some of the older
attitudes to what the sport was able to do may need updating as well,
( but as Yet I do not know the full workings) so I'm prepare to be enlightened
My understanding which only goes back three years is that Heaven was on the verge of imploding .
The bulk of the current committee stepped in with a mission to keep a viable VMX only club running in NSW.
Three years later we have a viable club running but an under lying discontent by some , most of who have
voted with their feet and chosen not to support the current way that thing's are running
What I have witnessed Is a small group of people working very had and yes sometimes doggedly to put on meetings for the Majority of its members ,MY view is that It has been done in a Business like way which may have taken some of the laided back easy going feel that some of us want as our recreation, And I'm not saying they made perfect decisions all the time
but the events have rolled on, and infrastructure for an ongoing concern has been built on
but obviously some toes have been trod on along the way.
having been to non Heaven run events as well over the last 3 years I don't see the void as being to wide and
would like to believe that the future for VMX in NSW could be positive,
this is not an Election speech as I have declined the invitation to be on the committee, though I plan to support who ever
is as best I can.
If any one would like to send me a PM and enlighten me as to some of the problems feel free to do so,
cheers
Noel
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First off let me say this - While I have only been back in dirt bikes for seven years (and shite - have just noched up fifty!) I have been into bikes by my own hand since I was 12 and love anything with two wheels (well, most anything!). Throughout this period I have owned and ridden shitters, raced a bit, owned some half decent Ducatis, spun spanners and enjoyed a long association with the two wheeled fraternity for better or for worse.
From '76 I had close ties with the Ducati club (founding member - and no longer with em) and held positions from Prez down. In a small way I think this puts me in a position to make some observations of the NSW VMX scene which I have been on the periphery of for a number of years having met (and liked) John Glendenning who was one of the first to kick of HEAVEN, and remember vividly his passion for the new discipline which revolved around "No water cooling, No disc brakes, and no linkage suspension" and took and instant liking for the idea. Since then it has (and I think sensibly)expanding to embrace 'newer' bikes to ensure long term viability of the sport.
Since then I have been way to immersed in my kids and have missed some bloody good times - but wouldn't change anything (apart from matrimonial indescretions but that my friends is another story, lol!!!)
It is time ALL the bullshit stopped and EVERYONE pulled together to encourage EVERYONE to get together and leave their f&*^%$% ego's at home and make the sport achieve it's full potential. As an observer up till now it saddens me to see personalities and ego's get in the way of a bloody good time and if what my son and I witnessed last weekend at Buladellah was anything to go by I am not wasting another year watching but WILL be there when the season kicks off in 2008 and if this old fossil can do it everyone reading this can, so leave your bullshit and prejudices at home and see the sport grow again and who gives a flying fig about the politics! I have seen the Ducati club ride wave after wave of bullshit, dickheads and wankers - why? Because the bulk of the people that really matter - the die hards don't let it bother them and just get on with it (Oh and if you are wondering - the reason I am not that interested in road bikes anymore - because just about everyone in the dirt scene (except from some parents and their jumped up offspring) are bloody good people passionate about what they or their kids are involved in.
Cum lets see ALL of you at the back of the pack (or where ever) in 2008 :)
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It is time ALL the bullshit stopped and EVERYONE pulled together to encourage EVERYONE to get together and leave their f&*^%$% ego's at home and make the sport achieve it's full potential. As an observer up till now it saddens me to see personalities and ego's get in the way of a bloody good time and if what my son and I witnessed last weekend at Buladellah was anything to go by I am not wasting another year watching but WILL be there when the season kicks off in 2008 and if this old fossil can do it everyone reading this can, so leave your bullshit and prejudices at home and see the sport grow again and who gives a flying fig about the politics!
Quoted for brilliance.
I was going to stay out of this thread because I'm clearly not the type of person Magoo was asking about. But the thread (already) has turned into a more general one...
I won't claim to have been actively involved in the VMX scene for long, but I do find it funny (and simeltaneously disappointing) to hear Joe Schmoe grizzling along the lines of "Joe Bloggs is a wanker and I'm never going to join HEAVEN while he's involved" - but (as fairly active HEAVEN member for the last two years) I've got NFI who Joe Bloggs is.... I'm always left with the image of the lost Japanese soldier on the deserted island, who doesn't realise that WW2 finished 8 years earlier - he's still fighting a war that's over, years after everyone else has moved on...
What's even sadder, is when Joe Bloggs has the same whinge about Joe Schmoe.
I've had zero problems with the way the current HEAVEN committee works - and have had a lot of help and support from them. While I don't totally agree with everything that happens, I also respect (and appreciate) the effort they put in.
And like MC490t said, when you actually go to a HEAVEN event, the vibe is overwhelmingly welcoming, positive and inclusive. How this club can be the source of all evil (as some have suggested) is completely and utterly beyond me.
Don't let the Perfect be the enemy of the Good.
If you want to race VMX, then just go and do it.
No, you won't have beautiful 19 year old virgins giving you a massage after every race, you probably won't have a race format that suits you perfectly, the world will not bend to your every whim, and you might even have to enter in advance.
But you will get to enjoy your old bikes with a bunch of like-minded souls.
Surely this is why VMX exists, and all the rest is just fluff and nonsense!?
Alternatively, anyone who keeps their bikes in the shed, and stubbornly refuse to return (or get involved) until things are made exactly how they want them, are a big part of the problem... :-\
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Magoo if you already know most of the old timers that still have bikes but dont go to meetings any more how come you havn't asked them why ???
And why havn't you talked them into coming back ???
If you get pissed off with the way something is done, you have 3 options;
1- Do something about.
2- Do nothing about.
3- Walk away.
If you choose to walk away, who becomes the loser?
I don't persume to know the politics of your racing system over there, or the rift that seems to keep cropping up in this forum,(so maybe I'm speaking out of turn) but I do know that if you enjoy something enough you will find away to overcome the problems.
The "wanker faction" as it is put, is only up to the individual to believe. I would never let a wanker stop me from racing (or enjoying my racing). Hey, maybe I'm the wanker, I've go selective hearing so it wont bother me. But unless both parties want to work out their problems, the wanking continues.
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If the retirees want to sulk at home let them, if they want to be a part of it well by all means but FFS leave the baggage at home.
CD4 type events aren't the answer, that's one heavily promoted and hyped event per year, if there was 8 CD's per annum how many would turn up?????
Never had any drama's with HEAVEN committee or members, so maybe I'm on another island or NSW version of DJ??? ;D
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As a vintage racer who has been around since the late 80s I've seen a lot of changes in the VMX scene, some good, others bad.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the sport isn't as much fun as it was in the 90s. Even though we now have VMX magazine and the internet to assist in promoting the VMX cause,there doesn't seem to be the passion that was around in the earlier days. I was at Wagga last weekend and as Magoo noted it was a magic meeting. The problem however was the lack of numbers. In the 90s there would have been twice the number of entries without evo and pre 78 padding the program. All pre 75. The main difference between then and now is passion. Passion from not only the racers but passion and belief in the product by club heirachy. Back then racers would drop everything to attend a Nationals event or a biggy like Condo but somehow that spirit seems to have faded. I saw a smidge of old school spirit and cameraderie in the Klub Kevlar pit at Wagga where the big talk was about helping get vintage biggys working again by attending great events like the Fred Hogg at Moruya and the Tassie Nats next year. The sense of fun cooperation and enthusiasm was great. I've been to HEAVEN events and even though I always enjoy myself, I always go home with a feeling that some passion was missing.
I'm also with Oldschool in calling for other non competitive outlets to draw the retirees back. How many interesting bikes and people did we see/meet at CD4? Most of the original VMX competitors are now over 50 and a lot over 60 so it's a big ask to expect them to still have the passion to race but you can bet that , like Magoo said, they still have their bikes and are still interested. Big Firko hasn't raced since '95 or so but he's still building cutting edge and interesting bikes as he pushes 60. He's the figurehead of a silent majority of older riders that want to remain involved without racing. Ray Ryan once told us that 75% of VMX readership are non racing enthusiasts.
The bottom line is that we do have to sort out some problems before situations fester and get worse. Nathan's right when he says" Alternatively, anyone who keeps their bikes in the shed, and stubbornly refuse to return (or get involved) until things are made exactly how they want them, are a big part of the problem..." (http://Alternatively, anyone who keeps their bikes in the shed, and stubbornly refuse to return (or get involved) until things are made exactly how they want them, are a big part of the problem...") but we should at least try to make it atractive enough for them to come back into the fold by making the events as suitable and friendly as we can. Grumpy officials and lacklustre events don't help at all.
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No.
Yes
Now answer my question
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All the above points have merit, I think now there is an opportunity for the Old Boys to be part of the VMX scene now that annual committe positions are becoming vacant, they may want to step into these positions and be active in the promotion even if they dont want to race for whatever reasons which is there freedom of choice, may even be able to write into the constitution no wanker rule but that would probably wipe out most of my mates ;)
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Not sure this is what your thinking but we had the final round of our DT titles on sunday and had an invitational demonstration.
Now alot of the old club members dont fancy racing full time, have the commitment, be screwed paying the MA fees and have just raced for so many years one more poxy ride isnt worth the effort to be able to grid up and fight it out with some other guy who is now pissed off the old chap has frunted up for only one round at the seasons end and if by beating him has soaked up his valuable series points, has become more of a distraction, and thats where the "vibes come from".
So what they did to ease all parties and bring the fold back in, was Run the Normal series for the "sheep station " riders, and as we did on the weekend had a 8 lap Club Legend Demonstration class . So the drill was they could use any bike from any era, this brought out not only all the clubs valued members who mostly work in Commitees etc but also some of the 'Lost' members, BUT and even better all that sexy kit, those "special " bikes ( let me tell you, if you only knew how much "exotic" or kewl Rides are actually out there, and so close to home you would wet your pants with excitment).
Being a Demonstration class they didnt need to pay all the fees, didnt need to spend time on set up and pit racing statergies, they just turned up and raced around the track for everyone to admire some previously "stored machines" and the event was fast for the first 3 laps, then turned into some kind of "slow down" or " charity cup" it decayed into antics, laughing and a jolly lot of fun, in the most part spurred on by the PA announcer. In the end a fat guy on a peewee won so it really became a lunch time event. The feedback i got from most of the guys was they just enjoyed the chance to ride around the track again without all the pressure and commitment at a full on race, the crowd and the fellow riders on the programe really enjoyed the event too.
Having said that a few of the older rider did indicate it might be a good time now the kids have gone to do one more year. Maybe by inviting a rally style class for participants would open up the option for these people to have another look ? in a low key kinda way, cheap and no ongoing series commitments.
Why did the club put this event in the program for the last Home round ? There where a lot of forgotten current and retired riders/members, a lot out there floating around the fence, the club secretary and others wanted somthing to tip them back in. The club wanted to get these guys invovled again and also put them on display for recognition by the club and sportfans. They invited some of these well know former riders and club stalwarts and got a 110% success rate, i say 110% success rate because other previously unseen riders found out there old mates where going to take some laps they started calling in for a shot at the "forgotten riders title"
Even if these guys dont ride full time again, im sure the class will be put on at our final round again next year, and in the meantime i think some of these families will come back to the club and support us and they can interact with there old passion again, but still keep it freindly, or disconnect if they need too for all the reasons we have in Real life. :)
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Perhaps the current Heaven committee have done to good a job. With 10 or so 2 day events throughout the year it doesn't allow enough time to get really hungry for a race. Perhaps complacency has set in, its a case of, if I miss the next meeting another is just around the corner unless of course the motivation is the points score. Other things such as time, money , family and work commitments and fear of injury in aging bodies all factor in as well.
Magoo, are there any updates on the moto mahem event at Oran Park?
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Have you always had this many events happening through out the year.
What/how many events ran back in the 60's& 70's???
May be it is too much complacency or too much choice.
I feel burnt out and I'm just reading about the amount of events you people have. :D
Come and try days are a great relaxed affair.. :D
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The 'hype' comes from the VMX wrecking/organising crew and for the full six months of forum chat about who was bringing what to ride and drink.The event was very well promoted, had some legends in attendance and everyone went there all 'geed' up for a good time, ingredients that just don't happen at a club round.I can assure I can easily grasp the concept of CD type event.However I reckon organising a CD type event would be a full time job and a demanding one at that.
Did someone ghost write that for you Freaky?To sensible,not enough spelling and grammatical errors but none the less a sound concept ;D ;D ;D
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It takes a brave man like firko to open a can of worms and call a spade a spade. Good on you.Sorry you could not make it to eastern creek on the weekend , was looking forward to see you there. Your bike was .
A few people from the forum droped in and said hello . It was a good weekend for classic racing . Hope you get better soon .cheers Walter
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I`am with you Lozza, Freaky`s onto something there.
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What would be nice is two full CD style events a year for the non competitive VMX participant...<snip>
These events are the best asset out sport has for creating the cameraderie we all love.
The Vinduro was similar. I spoke to several blokes who simply weren't interested in racing VMX themselves, but were really enjoying the chance to enjoy their bike(s) and the company of like-minded people.
They're out there, for sure.
HEAVEN offers free riding on most Saturdays before their race meets. The on-track sessions are far less 'intense' than what was happening at Broadford, so there's less risk to rare bikes and relatively fragile bodies.
Maybe too few people know about this?
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Did someone ghost write that for you Freaky?To sensible,not enough spelling and grammatical errors but none the less a sound concept ;D ;D ;D
Nope was still pumped from the weekend ( took out 2nd place in the series for the year in DT ) yeee har and while i was in a good glow at work today started typing and your right checked it twice that i made sense and even pulled my finger out and checked the spelling not once but more than twice ;D
and dont thank me lozza not my idea - thank the club secretary and whoever was on the commitee that came up with it, our club is doing a bit of a phoenix ATM, went quiet for a few years after the big MXB punch up split the club and now the dust has settled years later, they are now building a real junior base ( we had over 20 under 9's participate in the junior 50's Demos - 4 races) infact we had to have 2 grids, every kid got a trophy for participating and at every round our club held ( 3) in the series (5) we had more kids each time.
Once parents found it wasnt a race and they didnt need a log book etc, it was easy for them to turn up and say yes. I bought my 9yr old girl a MA licence and all the gear in feb, this weekend was the first time ALL year we convinced her to ride ( and a free weekend 4 her-i wish i knew about the demo class back in feb) i know understand why many parents are worried if they spend all that coin wether they will get any value. or will it really cost them. I learnt that lesson myself the hard way in road racing, one day i just stupid on a per lap basis. Dirt track/ MX is a great value for money sport if you can get onto ride days, open fun days etc in on your licence, i rode just as much on my senior licence on ride days this year than at the race meets, so i understand why guys that just want to ride a few times a year really would like the option to just turn up and ride these more organised meets, the demo class concept opens up all those options.... there is no commitment, just participation.
The senior Demonstration class seemed to be an extention of that junior success story and it was a great success. As i said i think many old members if nothing else will come out now and help in the junior coaching and track maintenance days etc once they feel they can have fun and enjoy without the pressure im sure riding will be back on the horizon. ;)
This success can also be measured in the fact our club put on 3 full rounds of Dirt track yet only 1 of Vmx, same bikes same people yet only 50% did the full MX, they seem to run better on our more interesting flat track/scramble lay out - read both Bikes and body bodies. Our track is a camber mix kidney shaped flatter track , we grade it and roll it in the lunch brake, the only complaint i have today is tight leg muscles and dusty bike, at the MX round i was sore all over for 3 days, destroyed my new tank decals and lost half the bolts on the bike and blew a shocker. I think track design can therefore also be a big factor in who feels like coming out, next year im not taking any good bikes to the Mx round, and will be taking only my good stuff to the Ftrack as i know it survives and its pre 75 freindly. thats the feeling i hear echo'd from many of the guys that discoved the flat /scamble tracks still offer a great ride and can still fuel the passion with out the cost on you or the good kit. im not sure what tracks your trying to get them back out to but if its a modern MX track with triples, doubles, sky jumps and all that hype you'd be lucky to get a starter, more sensible period style with a berm or 2 and a drop off and your in with a real chance :-\
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Intersting read. Being a North Queenslander' we don't get a myriad of events to ride without super travel. Have been around since the Nats were first at Ravenswood. Now tend to watch rather than ride, probably due to the same reason I gave up and went to speedway in the 90s. Tracks up here are too rough for the body (read having trouble going to work on Mondays) and bike (read dollars in repairs)because we have to cater for the ever cycling age of the newer age "Vintage MX", At 50 with pins and bolts try punting a metisse around the same track as an 85, 95 or 2005 Yamaha. To a certain degree I believe this is probably also occuring down south? and perhaps it is intersting to note the increased interest in DT. I see a real problem here unless some creative heads get to work soon,
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Thanks Walter but it was Magoo that started this little discussion. I just put in my 2c worth. Thanks to you and Les for looking after my Maico at Eastern Creek. I intended being there but I was too crook. It's the first time I've missed that meeting in years. Thanks for the support.
I think this has been a fruitful discussion. It's generally agreed that while theree's a need to keep supporting the race meetings, it may be time for clubs to lighten up a little and introduce more non competitive involvement at some (not all) meetings. There are more old farts like me who are deeply interested in building bikes than you'd believe. There are some unbelievably trick bikes being built by blokes who don't wish to race any more. They deserve a chance to ride/display/talk about their bikes as much as the true blue "sheep station" racers.
Another positive is to turn certain meetings into "must go" cult status events. The Crawford River Classic was heading in that direction in its original format but in recent times while still being a good meeting, it's become a little to serious.
I like the vibe that's emerging about the Fred Hogg meeting in Moruya. Everybody Ive spoken to recently seems to be gee'd up for it next February. I know I harp on about this a lot but we really need to find another Condo. That one meeting was the major bond that kept the sport alive on the East Coast. Look at the fun at recent meetings like Wagga, the Evo Challenge and the Coffs Nats and you'll understand what we need. Less grumpy 'closed pits' anal stuff and more of the Dick Mann "if you've got a bike in the truck and $20 in your pocket you race, We sort the other stuff out later" attitude.
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Dick Mann's got it in one.
Best words I've read from you Firko ;D.
Over here we have a recreation class and it isnt lap/point scored and no racers are allowed to go in it. It's great for people who just want to ride around. I dont know how you guys ride modern tracks on the old girls and even think about going to work the next day. But yeah as Freaky says "an easier track is alot easier on the body" and lets face it, its bloody hard to keep fit the older you get. But I think you guys are talking the right talk now about fun/friendly days. No matter if you think fun/friendly days are 'soft', we have them over here and the racing between friends is always just as hard and fast, but I'm sure its just to build up a thirst for the end of the day ;) ;D. And thats when all the real racing starts, or is that the bullshit ;D
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Less grumpy 'closed pits' anal stuff and more of the Dick Mann "if you've got a bike in the truck and $20 in your pocket you race, We sort the other stuff out later" attitude.
can someone fill me in on what the "closed pits" thing was, was it closed to competitors only, not allowing spectators to view the bikes or what?
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Hoony
The closed pit thing was a real winner but i still dont think it beats pre arranged photographers only on the the track at a club day (that was gold).
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Husky 61
so was it what i thought ? your kidding about the photographers right ??? on a club day.
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Sadly Hoony you got the closed pits scenario first go. You had to park your bike in the 'parc ferme' and all of your gear and suport systems outside in the general parking area. If you wanted to work on your bike you had to walk it out of the parc ferme to your car/trailer.
Even more ridiculous was the clubs atitude to only allowing pre arranged photographers on the track. If I hadn't been there I wouldn't have believed either situation. AJ from VMX was a very unhappy camper that day. Can you imagine any club preventing a photographer from VMX (or any magazine for that matter) from taking pictures at a bloody club day?
When people ask why there is so much agro towards the club, situations like these and many moore (pardon the pun) are used as examples.
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This thread has to be one of the most constructive on the forum at the moment and so I want to add some more to it.
As I said earlier I went to Bulahdelah with my son weekend before last and as no bike was ready we ended up flagging on both days to get first hand views and as much dust as possible.
What we experienced provided most of what has been discussed here and I believe the committee must have the formula almost right. We arrived mid Saturday morning to watch the free riding and the riders all appeared to be having a ball which, given the voluminous dust being generated, shows how keen everyone was. Gotta point out too that the dust problem was completely beyond the organisers control due to the water truck breaking down - shit happens - and besides after the drought we've been going through we all have a good tolerance for it now. Just about every machine on the paddock must have had a run out there and while the more serious riders no doubt used the time to dial in on the track and set up their bikes others just said how much they had enjoyed themselves.
The racing started after lunch and all races went smoothly although the dust kept the lap times down a bit (well it sound's like a good excuse to me lol!). What we saw with the racing was the broadest range of machines and experience from an AJS Stormer to the Pre 85 'moderns' and riders who pretty well lit up with riding up on the pegs and hard up front on the corners to guys, girls and kids (yep, they catered for the riders kids as well) just puttering around enjoying themselves. There seemed to be a race for every class of bike there on the weekend although there was a distinct lack of the old stuff which was a shame but certainly nothing you could sheet back to the HEAVEN guys.
The pits were 'open' which is the layout we prefer having experienced both and I think, if the sport is to prosper, should be encouraged rather than the 'çlosed' type because you can move about the bikes freely and talk to the owners, take pictures and generally be inspired to get out there rather than feeling you are intruding by going through the gated area which is also generally much more crowded and not BBQ friendly for obvious reasons.
For those who stayed for the night you couldn't have asked for more and the catered roast was first class leading to a late night of making new friends and catching up with old ones. I have to say that there was some talk about numbers being down a bit and the ones who didn't make the trip were more the poorer for staying at home, although some did go to the Wagga Wagga Classic
Dirt Track Championships which was fair enough.
Sundays racing was ditto for Saturdays and from the flag-point we were on which gave a bids eye view we never saw anything that could be regarded as aggressive riding and slow riders seemed to be passed without scaring shit out of them. The great thing to come out the two days was zero serious injuries and a lot of tired, thoroughly dusted up and very happy competitors.
In summary that event provided just about the lot so to all of you old members who are hanging back get out there next year and show the new guy (me) just how good you are instead of reflecting on how great it could be if only they did this or that. One thing my twenty plus years as a fireman has taught me is that death can catch up with you much quicker than you think and if it does there is no point wondering what you missed out on - this ain't a rehearsal so drop your bullshit, prejudices, bias, wanker hating, whinging, politicking and bing miserable and get out there again. If you want to be negative stay away but if you think you can add something get involved. If all you want is a power base there is an election coming up - run for parliament and don't do your politicking through a bike club - more clubs have died because of that shit than anything !!!
What may work, reading between the lines of this forum thread is a NSW CD type event but that is easier said than done because some poor bunch of coots has to organise it. It appears there are a whole lot of guys out there who just want to bring out their pride and joy to show the world, perhaps ride it in a rec' race and stand around remembering their glory days or whatever - and what a good recruiting ground for further club participants but that is up for a committee to decide not me.
Kel Moore from HEAVEN assured me that the two day format we enjoyed was pretty much typical of HEAVEN events now and if that is indeed the case there is not one reason based on what has been posted on the forum why the gates should not be full of riders of ALL abilities on any type of bike in any (race worthy) condition. Leave your baggage at home, be positive and constructive and most importantly have fun............
See you at the back of the pack ;)
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maico 490T
They are fair observations , however most people are not staying away but exercising the options available by going to other meetings which we as group are very fortunate to have.
Certainly the atmosphere provided at meetings is tenable , however sadly that atmosphere and friendship provided by the comittee is selective . Most reasonable individuals will not tolerate dismissive beharvior and certainly will not tolerate bullshit and unreasonable correspondence associated with what would be seen to be reasonable requests or questions.
My opinion and my opinion only , is that the process is not fully transparent and certainly many issues are dismissed with out great thought.
People that run clubs in general are voted in by members and are entitled to do as they see fit and what they think is the right thing during there tenures, after all thats what they are elected to do. To a certain degree you gotta admire people that stand for these positions as there is a reasonable amount of work involved but on the other hand you do not have to take any shit or unreasonable behaviour from them either.My experience is that most reasonable individuals like it straight up , not discussions on issues with totally different results . Now , good on you for doing your bit and for the people that run clubs in general. Should any Heaven committee members wish to discuss the above with me please call you have my numbers.
Now , having been part of the process i must say that its not to bad but could be much better , but you will find alot of people are directing their energy to other options and thats not a bad thing as it expands the opportunities for all involved. There are numerous individuals capable of providing substantial support , however they are electing to support different options at this stage for varying reasons and again thats not a bad thing.
Certainly the terms of reference , wanker , bias etc do not eneter the equation as most people are just persuing their hobby with the added bonus of a ride or a day of practice. (Bearing in mind this not alot of peoples main hobby either.)
There is certainly no science involved just old and not so old guys on old bikes.
let it settle , keep it simple and they will come .
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hey while i think of it. one of the points i ment to make, and i know im harping on the Kids thing, but the 50cc demo class has been one of the reasons we have had to "accomodate" the old fellas, many of the kids riding in the flat track demo series ,grand parents and associates are the OLD boys, the kids have invited 'pops and nan' to come out and help em, and mum and dad wanted to show off there little ones, there never going to refuse the little tackers and many seem to forget why they left, but remeber why they came.
I think some times you need to remember you cant lead a horse to water, but it sure helps when the rest of its herd are there too. Target there kids !
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here was our List of our clubs events for this year ( just done), now in saying that this appeared put in the local paper ? Get this part...... they asked to run it. I'm convienced it is in no part to the 50cc demo, and see the guys painting this ambo hut...... they have family and freinds riding in that 50cc Demo class, proves my other point in that its bringing them all home. And the council has now handed over another 5 year lease extentions to Both parcels of land, the local comunity is getting very perocial over the Riding, and you guessed it some of the 'OL timers 'spend a little time with there ol freinds on the council, bringing those old families back to your club pays off in so many ways, many you cant see. 3 years ago the council wanted the track closed, now its given us 2 tracks and bent all the EPA/planning rules to get us up and running even though our race days are always on a Sunday ( Day road is less than 1.5 km from the main street and slap bang in the local neighbourhood, see how the right community pressure and involement can change absolutely everything. ;D
Now Look at this years List of events, not too few - not to many. Now look at how many are Competion Rounds...... we held 3 of the 5 State rounds and turned more numbers on the day than the 2 other hosting clubs combined... why ? because it was a bloody well run event with strong community support from the old and new. Now Look at all the other riding days . Parawa is an open senior/ junior MX track with 20 min sessions per group, and the Day road - family ride days ( is flat track , well more a double kidney shape) they are just that a lot of fun again split into senior / teens/ juniors on 20 min session rotations all day. These sessions are made up when we find out the days riders, if a stack of pre 77 stuff turns up thats a session etc.
It has been a really balanced year of competition and normal Riding. I rode every date and 1-2 other interclubs, i couldnt have handled 1 more ride and by the last event in the program on the weekend, i just knew i had had enough. It was JUSt the right amount, and also worth noting more the feedback from all the flaggies, officals and club volunteers they too said it was enough, and that really is a very important point, an event is nothing unless you can get it all together by having ALL the volunteers happy to come and help. You burn them out, you will struggle into a spiral.
Now for the dead keen - throw in say 1 Dt and 1 MX Nationals (you may need to miss a local meet) but over all you still get the same rides in. Just enough and individuals can choose how much and @ what level they want to ride at.
Now Read the wording on the open days again..... closely .... Ride days............... Family fun and ride days.
Same Head differant Hat. But the relaxed nature of that wording has embraced and drawn in so much so much support from the locals, the old riders, and mums that have finally let there kids come and ride in a safe place with there freinds and family has turned the club upside down, and i believe the sport for us. Mention the word race and my kid wont ride full stop she flattly refused, but i cant stop here on the ride day, we have to kick them off before it goes dark.
No longer down here are riders dirty trouble makers, they are now seen here as you, me ,your mum and the lady in the local deli. Infact it has become so acceptable the DASH for cash (fasted lap each group) was sponsered in this Final DT roud by the local deli ....... WTF........ We have gotten credibility. NOTE : We only had Two(2) bike related sponsers in the whole program, and when you come out and see over 12 girls on the track, and Grampa working on the grand kids Pee wee because this is a 'peice of piss' compared to that shitter BSa he used to ride. You will understand, why getting the OLDies and the KIDs in via non competiton events has saved our club and made it a powerhouse in the community all in about 3 years.
Change the word Race and replace it with anything yoou like and youll be very surprised where it will take you and who you find turning up on your door ;)
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(If the retirees want to sulk at home let them, if they want to be a part of it well by all means but FFS leave the baggage at home.
CD4 type events aren't the answer, that's one heavily promoted and hyped event per year, if there was 8 CD's per annum how many would turn up??
Never had any drama's with HEAVEN committee or members, so maybe I'm on another island or NSW version of DJ??? ) quote Lozza
Lozza , I think this statement is not qiet correct . If there was no CD , than we would not be where we are today.
I always look forward to this or any other unique event. I have done my riding in the past , so if there is not a social or historical part involved in the event ,my restored maschinery and my tortured body say no.
But each to their own, like I said before with the sidecars : if its just for the sake of burning fuel , why not buy a modern bike ? I believe VMX should be more than just racing .
A) It should preserve an era
B) it should have a historical aspect
C) it should encourage social gathering
D) it should be educational for newcomers
E) classics are classics and moderns are moderns ( do you bring a soccer ball to aussie rules game ?)
F ) It should also cater for the restorers that never race
Thats what CD has, and thats why it is what it is.
This my view only , perhaps I am wrong
Walter Preisig
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Ya know, I think we are all right!
This thread, providing it doesn't degrade into some personality bashing exercise, could be very useful to develop consensus on what the broader riding community want and hopefully if the organisers are reading this and are open to suggestions (and I am not in any position to say, or know, if they are) we can fine tune the sport for the current 'generation' of VMX rider, racer, restorer or whatever.
Graemes' post elsewhere in the forum has also suggested changes to formats or indeed the creation of whole new ones and that is all good to me so long as there isn't too much to decide between - because I have to work so many weekends I don't don't mid if I have options but understand some would get rider burnout.
Bottom line is to keep an open mind and embrace and encourage any positives that come along - after all as has been mentioned already in this thread there is the modern option but I feel after all the bullshit of the last three or four years it's time to let things settle and TRY and get along and if there are issues you don't like get onto a committee and change things, but do it by stealth as table banging, back stabbing and other tactics rarely work and achieves even less.
The kids are also to be encouraged - I know my son is itching to race VMX once the orthopedic specialist clears him due to a re fracture of a collarbone (and plate $$$) and if they stay we will have something for years to come and it sets a good example if they see things running smoothly.
See you at the back of the pack !!!
Dave Mac
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Hi Guys,
Here's my 2 cents worth [and that is probably a sad reflection on its real value]…
Classic Dirt is a non competitive event and it attracts 3 to 4 times the number of on-track participants and far and away the largest number of spectators [and Garage Queens on show] compared to any other OZ based race meeting. No, we shouldn't dilute its value by running 'Son of Classic Dirt' but we need to learn from its success and see what can [and should] be applied to the current race meetings to enhance their appeal to the punters.
It seems that most of the racers who have taken their bat and ball and gone home have been frustrated by the imposition of rules designed to structure the sport. Every racer can tell you stories of mindless protests [I was beaten by a CZ and his sprocket was bolted on - not riveted], eligibility issues [arguments over which bike was produced in '74 or 75], etc, etc, etc. It seems that every new rule excludes somebody or some bike from being able to compete.
It wouldn't matter what bike most riders were on, it wouldn't make one jot of difference to their finishing position in any given race [riveted sprockets not withstanding]. A '74 or '75, a 76 or 78 the race results would be the same.
What we need is a framework that encourages participation - not a set of rules that divides and deminishes our pass-time. VMX is a multi-faceted endeavour, it encompasses retoration, riding, racing, collecting, bench racing [bull-shitting], history, shed time, social interaction and time away from your normal routine [and environment] – the racing seems almost inconsequential to all this. VMXers are made up of all these things in various amounts, no proportions are better than another. All participants are valuable and should be encouraged.
This is where Classic Dirt comes up trumps. It doesn't favour any facet of the VMX experience [except racing] and encourages people to come and enjoy the EVENT!!!
What do I think can be distilled from all of this?
It is clear that there are reduced numbers of active competitors at a most [not all] race meetings and yet Classic Dirt is growing. I think that means that there are less people who want to race competitively but still a good number who want to ride and show their bikes. The simple answer is to give them what they want - not what you think they should have.
VMX has evolved in the last 25 years, we should move with the times and market a product that encourages participation for as many people and bikes as possible. Bring the fun back!!!!
To illustrate my point. Remember at CD4, everybody had a great day on Saturday and when the rain came on Sunday, nobody complained. People just shrugged their shoulders. Everybody still had a smile on their faces in fact a lot of people enjoyed the additional time to do more catching up and socialising. It was great to be a part of.
Keep up the good ideas and let's take VMX in a direction that allows the most participants to have the most fun.
VMX42
P.S. and roll on CD5!!!!
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All I know is that there are a lot of good guys i.e M,M that have fallen off the NSW VMX radar,and I hope that they come back into the fold.Just block out the d**ckhead factor and get out on your bikes!VMX even in NSW is too much fun to pass up.
Good luck to all my old mates in NSW,I really hope that VMX starts to regain some of the momentum it had three + years ago (i.e remeber the great Rockley weekends).
Hey DJ, see you at Taupo mate,I will try and restrain using the duct tape!.You Ockers really should get over here for a race.Its O for awesome!
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It seems that most of the racers who have taken their bat and ball and gone home have been frustrated by the imposition of rules designed to structure the sport. Every racer can tell you stories of mindless protests [I was beaten by a CZ and his sprocket was bolted on - not riveted], eligibility issues [arguments over which bike was produced in '74 or 75], etc, etc, etc. It seems that every new rule excludes somebody or some bike from being able to compete.
It wouldn't matter what bike most riders were on, it wouldn't make one jot of difference to their finishing position in any given race [riveted sprockets not withstanding]. A '74 or '75, a 76 or 78 the race results would be the same.
What we need is a framework that encourages participation - not a set of rules that divides and deminishes our pass-time.
In principle, I strongly agree.
It gets much more difficult when you try to make it work in reality: Remember that behind every protest, there's somebody who thinks it mattered (regardless of whether everyone else thought they were a twit).
So if you dismiss the protester, then you risk having them pack up their bat and ball and going (and staying) home.
Same net problem for the sport.
At the moment, there's a lot of angst within the local rally community over exactly this issue - we've got the culture where nobody ever protests anybody and some real shockers are being ignored. Then we tie ourselves in knots over where to draw the line - do we ping 'honest' competitors with cars that are outside the regs or not? If not, then where do we draw the line? Who draws the line? Etc...
In the rally world, the real solution is to write less shitty rules (their basic intent is great, but they're spectacularly poorly written).
In the VMX world, while the rules could do with a tidy up, they're not as fundamentally flawed either (IMHO).
There's value in the status quo, even if you know that the status quo is flawed.
As an aside, I was looking at a Ulysess Club magazine today. Of their first-ever 200 members, ~80 are still involved with the club as financial or life members.
I wonder how many of the first 200 Australian VMX participants are still 'stake holders' nowdays? With guys like Firko, Drakeford, Boag, Yamaboy, etc still actively involved in the sport, I suspect that the VMX retention rate isn't too far off the 40% that the Ulysses guys have managed (and remember that racing old dirt bikes is far harder on bodies than road riding is).
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VMX42,
YOU COULD BE AN HONOURARY KIWI WITH WHAT YOU HAVE SAID.
I have to say I think what you have said is fantastic. If I was ever to come over to race/ride vmx in Oz it would be "Classic Dirt", not because its the biggest event on your yearly calender, but because of the relaxed rules and the socializing. I believe that great VMX meetings aren't measured by the racing but by the atmosphere of the event. The more fun someone has, the more enjoyable the meeting, the more likely they will come back.
How about a "bring a friend along day", if you are trusting enough for him/her to ride your bike ;D. These sort of days are great family days and can incourage more people into the sport.
Do you guys over there have a competition/series that is run by each and all clubs and at the end of the year have an overall winner? Do you have inter-club challenges?
I think people should look at the positives of what you already have rather than complain about the negatives. Most people looking at the positives see the negatives in a different way and can usually come up with great ideas to tweak them into running smoothly. It's always hard to fight your way out of the red tape but it is easy to wrap yourself in it. The less you have of it, the simpler life becomes.
A win is a win, you are the guy who kept it on the longest and braked the latest, but if your bike isnt legal for that class, all I can say is "you must want it worse than me, 'or' if thats the way you need to win", but I would never protest. If I can't do it on the track, then I dont want it any other way.
Suzuki43 ; see ya at Taupo and where is the duct tape going ;D ???
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Hi Guys,
Firstly Nathan, I am not under any illusion that making these kinds of changes will be universally applauded. And I agree that sometimes protests should be passionately pursued, but I don't know anybody that says they have enjoyed seeing it happen. A really dogged protest can change the vibe of the whole event and the ramifications seem to hang around a long time and leave a very negative feeling for everybody.
But what I was trying to say was that at most of the smaller meetings [if we go down the path of a more casual style of competition] it wouldn't matter what a rider had done to his bike - the results would be the same and therefore I would like to see everybody just chill out. Obviously if you front at the Nationals with an illegal bike then it should be ruled as non compliant and dealt with appropriately. This is one area the Poms deal with by having a silloette rule [if it looks right from 5 meters then it is OK].
Secondly DJ, thanks for the compliement. I would be proud to be an honourary Kiwi [my grandmother was from the land of the long white cloud]. Your idea for a 'bring a friend day' is spot on. We all know people who have an interest in what we do and that would be a great way to get them involved. I think we Aussies could learn alot from the Kiwis about how to attract and keep riders in the sport with an inclusive and fun attitude.
You summed it up much better than me with your comments about a win being a win, and holding the throttle on the longest… etc. I know that I go the same speed [lap time] on a 125 or a 500, I am the limiting factor not the bike [and this is true for 95% of VMXers].
I think the common denominator of all the mooted changes offered in this thread is that whilst there might be a few guys put out by these kind of potential changes they are actually being offered for the benefit of the vast majority. But, if as the observations indicate that the pendulum in VMX is swinging away from focussing on racing and to a more social style of event then we should embrace and enjoy it.
Just as a small aside. One thing I have noticed over the years is that the genuinely fast guys, riders who have raced successfully the national and international level never complain. They just get out and enjoy the ride as they realise that it is just a VMX event.
Keep up the great ideas guys, they make really interesting reading.
Catch you later
VMX42
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Firko,
Beautifully put.
27 races on a day is achievable and if the rules are loosely framed on suspension eras they will be easy to inforce. A 5 meter rule is totally in keeping with the spirit of a club day.
Perhaps the more active clubs could run a few less race meetings a year and add a couple of fun/social days. Or combine the 2 and have the fun/social in the morning and a short race program in the afternoon. Put on a BBQ [free with entry], come coldies. Perhaps a 'bring a friend day' as DJ suggested, or a fun mini bike race [for oldies]. The bottom line is we won't really know until an enterprising club takes the plunge and has a go. But as I keep saying Classic Dirt has proven that if you host an EVENT not just a Race meeting the punters will come [for all the associated reasons listed in this thread]. The sport as a whole would be better off with fewer events/more enthusiastically supported than an extended racing season with diminishing numbers.
I think one thing that gets lost on clubs is that the vibe at a meeting is critically important. If you turn up and the place is buzzing with a great atmosphere and lots of people and bikes it makes you want to get involved and come back again, and again. But if you turn up to a race meeting with small numbers and no atmosphere, a meeting that is solely focussed on the racer, it doesn't engender the same kind of desire. That's what I mean by running fewer, but better events. It will take some time for the word to get out there but it would work as CD proves.
Keep 'em coming
VMX42
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Post is interesting, but pardon my ignorance or stupidity, but whats a 10 foot or 5 metre rule, are we have a game of Rugby League ??
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THIS POST WAS SOMEHOW CUT IN HALF ON THE PREVIOUS PAGE. IT SHOULD HAVE APPEARED BEFORE VMX42s POST, SORRY ABOUT ANY CONFUSION...........To anwswer Oldstuffs question, the 10 foot or five metre rule is "if it looks good from 10 feet away, it's OK!"
VMX has evolved in the last 25 years, we should move with the times and market a product that encourages participation for as many people and bikes as possible. Bring the fun back!!!! (http://VMX has evolved in the last 25 years, we should move with the times and market a product that encourages participation for as many people and bikes as possible. Bring the fun back!!!!) I couldn't agree more.
I've been thinking about this for a long time now and have come to the conclusion that we have three distinctly diferent facets of our movement that need to be nurtured.
The first and, up until now, the most obvious reason for our existence is racing. The nucleus of the racing scene is the club day, with HEAVEN, VIPER, Penrith or whoever running them. We need to maintain the club days existence by keeping them simple, fun and easily accessible to all who wish to race/ride on an old bike. Running the event using the "10 foot rule" as to eligibility is a good idea and takes away some pressure from the punter who just wants to ride. For club day purposes it may be an idea to split the events into easier to manage generational cut offs. Lump all of the old bikes into a "pre suspension revolution'' category which still would basically be pre 78 give or take. The next category would be the existing EVO which is loose enough in concept already to make it easy for most punters. The third catergory would be loosely pre 85 or pre 90 if thats what the punters want. Then each category is split into 125, 250 and 500 plus. This produces 9 races per round over three rounds which gives us 27 structured races. Any extra time could be taken up with novelty races such as all capacity races or all Honda (or whatever) races or free riding sessions for non racers. Most importantly though I think that there shouldn't be any trophies or prizes. This has the dual purpose of saving the club the expense of trophies and keeping the trophy hunters in their place. The money saved on trophies could go towards a free post race barbecue for competitors.
The next facet of VMX that needs to be protected and supported is the "Nationals". By Nationals I mean the Australian Classic Motocross Championship and Australian Classic Dirt Track Championship. These events are the Holy Grail of our sport and need to be supported by as many competitors as possible. They should remain as the pinnacle of achievement in VMX or VDT competition. Where I see change is the possibility of the events reverting back to the "Big Club Day" format from which they had evolved. This has the effect of reducing the promoting costs of the club by half to two thirds and negates the need for entrants to need an expensive full competition licence. Winners would still be regarded as Champions by their peers within the VMX movement, the only real thing missing being the MA medal. As well as the Nationals being revamped we need to cultivate a couple of cult status meetings that become "must go" events, like Condoblin was in the nineties.
The third facet that needs to be developed even more is the Classic Dirt or Rally concept. Ray Ryan was totally right in his assumption that three quarters of VMX enthusiasts are non competitive collectors. The huge roll up at CD4 verifies that Rays vision has more potential than any other part of the VMX family. We would be unwise to try and create "son of CD events" as they would take some of the steam out of the main event. It would however be a great idea for clubs to promote show'n'shine and non competitive ride sessions at their club days, especially two day meets like the Crawford River Classic or Conondale. That way everybody gets to enjoy the event and gets a chance to show their pride and joy off to an understanding and appreciative audience.
Finally,whatever we do we shouldn't lose sight of the original pre '75 categories, no matter what new divisions are implemented in the future.
For our sport to prosper into the future we need to celebrate the past and even encourage new participation in the older categories.
That my friends, is my 2c worth...................
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On any Wednesday...Yeah baby! This old boy rode the kids DT100 vmx bike a mile down the road to catch a ride to work. You shoulda seen it - like some 1970's add...open face helmet, brief case bag on the tank.
Hey I find the call of the chair & beer many times stronger than that of the dirt & saddle at times. Now this old dog has dug into the bag of dusty tricks & refound the lost guitar hobby... ::)
Talking about old fellas, last year in NZ Kiwi vintage champs Taupo round, I found myself in the rare position of being in hot pursuit of a certain ex world champ Hugh Anderson, who also was riding a CZ400. That registers as one of the greatest highlights in my vmx experience, the guy was so cool to follow, he knew all too well that someone was in his slip stream. The last lap came around & like stereo we both nailed it hard, the guy wouldn't give an inch & beat me fair & square. The man was 72 years old, now any time I feel a bit fragile & past it I remember that day.
Sometimes I find it hard to load up & do yet another round, there's always something else that needs doing at home, or it seems a little too scary, oh no! not another mud round! but whatever happens & I make it back home to my chair & beer...then comes the immense satisfaction of having broken out of the comfort zone & done it!
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Well done Firko , that sums it all up and makes sense.
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VMX42,
YOU COULD BE AN HONOURARY KIWI WITH WHAT YOU HAVE SAID.
I have to say I think what you have said is fantastic. If I was ever to come over to race/ride vmx in Oz it would be "Classic Dirt", not because its the biggest event on your yearly calender, but because of the relaxed rules and the socializing.
DJ The Classic Dirts are great events :) But even they are way more regulated than any VMX meeting over here .
I think it has somthing to do with the fact that all events in the west island are run under Motorcycling Australia .
We are fortunate here that we take control of our own affairs and give Motorcycling NZ a wide berth :-*
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Hi Guys,
No need to worry Firko, Pre 65, Pre 75 the more the merrier. We need to make these events inclusive, so everybody is welcome [even Bultaco riders]!*
Eno, don't worry. Bring your chair, guitar and beer. Just don't bring the disco ball [no need as Ajay always carries a spare in the Truck]!!!
Bill, no need to rub it in. If we could operate a meeting without MA [and I am not knocking MA, but their involvement is necessary for the required insurance] then I am sure we would. I hope you guys in EnZed realise how lucky you are.
So lets get some momentum going and bring back the old guys, the new guys [and all their friends] and show everybody what they are missing by not being involved in VMX.
Of course, words are cheap… so where to from here??? Keep the dialogue going and see if we can come up with some practical solutions.
Back to you guys
VMX 42
P.S. and Firko, I would probably offer you 6 or 7 cents for your input - it was that good!!
*yes that was a joke, you know who you are…
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Spot on Firko, and I've taken that on board re this 80sMX concept. I'll post some more thoughts on that later. I also agree about the Classic Dirt. It should retain its cult status as the one true national 'lifestyle' event. I've been to three out of four of these and they are just what it's all about. I will never forget the first one - it was perfect in every way to me.
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Well stated Firko. It's time we all stopped pushing our personal barrows and worked together for the future of our sport.
Time after time I read on these post that someone is lobbying for pre 90 or 95 or whatever to be picked up as "the saviour" of vintage racing. Its time we stopped trying to make our sport bigger and started to make it better! Firkos ideas are a good start.
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I'm with him - all good ideas and I believe the makings of a good template for a bright future - all brought about by reasonable argument and comment without the bitchin', but here's is the crunch..........
We are all throwing around ideas here that I reckon could get long legs, but are there any HEAVEN, VIPER or whatever committee types out there reading all of the comments posted here and mulling it over.
If you are out there let us know, otherwise all this stuff will have to be downloaded and sent to the "to whom it may concern" people so they can get the wheels turning.
Worth some comment from club officials who surely read these pages ???
And please guys if anyone from the clubs does pass comment lets all be polite ;)
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Yes Firko, the concept of more friendlier club meetings(relaxed bike classes), then the guy who just wants to ride around the track on a simlar looking bike as the next guy isnt told to go up a class for having the wrong bolt in his bike.
I think you guys over there are lucky. Look at the amount of VMX meetings you can choose to go to. You need to keep alot of them as fun events to draw people into the sport and also to attract the guys back who have left the fold.
If you guys looked at a calender one day and worked out how many VMX meetings are on in one year you would be surprised. If the clubs got together and worked out when each one wanted to have their big(full-on competition) races then they could be spread throughout the year giving you plenty of competitive racing with more numbers on the start line.
Of cause all of you should support your nationals champs, and if you think you arent good enough, will thats just to bad because there is only one person good enough at the end of the day and the rest of us just make up the numbers and thats what makes a great event.
There are 12 months to a year and I know of three major events that you guys run(classic Dirt, National MX, National DT) and if "your" club runs one big event a year how many "big" events is that in one year? Plus I assume each club runs there own 'club champs' or 'series' so when do you get to have those lazy riding days ???
Over here we run classes on the basis that if the bike looks like it should be in pre75 then thats where it races(thats how I get to race a YZ125X in pre75). If its a non-linkage aircooled bike then it goes in pre80. The system works. But as firko says for the Nationals the rules have to apply and that means complying with them. If you know the rules there shouldnt be any problems. Remember that you want to go to this event so you should know the rules. Lets face it, if a cop pulls you over for speeding, its not his fault(hes just the F@&k!n bastard giving you the ticket).
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But what I was trying to say was that at most of the smaller meetings [if we go down the path of a more casual style of competition] it wouldn't matter what a rider had done to his bike - the results would be the same and therefore I would like to see everybody just chill out. Obviously if you front at the Nationals with an illegal bike then it should be ruled as non compliant and dealt with appropriately. This is one area the Poms deal with by having a silloette rule [if it looks right from 5 meters then it is OK].
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In reality, I haven't ever seen it work any other way - even at the Nationals. I saw a couple of bikes at the Nats that clearly had 'out of era' bits on them, but Who Gives A Rat's Arse?
Similarly, I am unaware of anyone being pulled up for eligibility isues at a HEAVEN event in the time I've been involved.
So I'd guess that this side of things IS already working the way that 99% of us want them to work?
Firko's last post is a pearler too. Two thumbs up from me.
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VMX42, MA have been playing the old Threat of Insurance Cover Cost card for a number of years here in classic roadracing, there was a groundswell of discontent in Qld a couple of years back that wanted to break away, run "black" meetings, and tell MA to go jump. Where this concept fails is, nobody has done a full breakdown of available insurance possibilities. As I'm sure DJ, TMBill and eno can confirm, vmx in NZ told MNZ to go whistle, as MNZ would do nothing for their movement except collect fees. At present, my understanding is that VMX Livewire shopped for appropriate insuranve, and this is covered inside the $30 - ish entry fee, and no race licence is required. Can you envisage how much more relaxed the beginning to your race day is already ? No wonder it's hammering over there, with tracks from hell on tap in both islands as well. Bastards ! PS, Hugh Anderson won 25 roadrace GPs on 50 and 125cc Suzukis, and won 4 world titles before turning back to mx, and raced in NZ on CZs and Yamahas for a number of years in the 60s and 70s, and is still redhot on a Manx Norton and BSA Empire Star as well. What a star...
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In NZ we dont have insurance as such for the rider. I believe the Kiwi VMX team have insurance for property damage(e.g. burning down a forrest etc) but our ACC takes care of any and all people if involved in an accident. VMX in NZ has never belonged to MNZ, probably because we would have to run meetings under their rule book, and their rule book might be ok for todays racing, but for VMX it isnt worth the paper it is written on. The one thing as riders we have to do is sign an indemnity against laying a complaint against the organisers. But common sense has to prevail when racing. If you think something is unsafe, say so, otherwise this is racing and accidents happen. Or you can always pack up and go home. 99% of the time its YOUR throttle hand that has the last say, you can always shut it off earlier. But yes, we are covered as riders, and yes we WILL NOT join MNZ so we dont have liciences and as VMX riders we dont even belong to VMX clubs. So no licience fees, no club fees, no insurance fees, no hierarchy fees and no un-vmx officials to worry about.
So in saying that, we pay $30 for a days racing and included in that price is a free BBQ lunch and if you help pull down the track at the end of the day the beer is free too.
So that is how VMX is in NZ.
Anyone wanna com'on over and sample it just say the word and myself and TMBill will help you all the way to the cold ones at the end of the day. ;D
Speaking of days, I remember that day when Hugh Anderson was racing with us and we thought that was really cool but the day didnt stop their because Harry Everts rode as well.
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I think you must Keep your bikes Friendly to the Era .
YES Friendly to the Era .....
Why Because the new guy to the Sport who turns up and and see the tt 500 with 12' of travel and a set of 40mm tubes .
So he go home and works on hes tt 500 and find a set of 43mm forks and 13' of travel and drops a
550cc xt donk and off he goes .
The next New guy rock up and check out Fred's new ride . Fred tell he what he has done and off Bill goes .
The 1976 TT is so far from what Yamaha Made .
So I say it must be Friendly to the Era .
OK Put some YYS Shocks with Clicker on the back and a extra 20mm travel .
Put some New Valve in the front forks all OK ..
Bore it out .
Put on a PVL as long it all fit under the Cover. all OK
But the Bike still look the same as Yamaha Made it .
Yes the bike go a bit harder all OK.
Yes the Suspension is much Softer on the Old Bone . All OK
Yes the Excl Rims are Cooler Looking All OK
Every Guy will all ways Just push it out a bit more than the other Guy and soon it would all be lost.
Thats what I Think.
Dennis M 555
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Hi GD66,
I actually don't have a problem with MA. All I was trying to say was that there is a large degree of complication and expense in running a meeting trying to make sure that everybody is insured. The need for this crazy level of required insurance isn't MA's fault, they didn't write the legislation that put us in this position. In fact without them there would be no motorcycle events at all.
Also, I do understand that the legislation in this area is very different between OZ and NZ and this is the reason that they don't have to jump through the insurance hoops that we have to. But I reiterate, it isn't MA's fault - blame the idiots that can't accept responsibility for their own actions and instead look for somebody to blame [with the help of some blood sucking lawyer].
To give you a non-motorcycling example. My son plays soccer and we pay $135.00 per season to register him. Of that $135.00 over $90.00 is for insurance. That is crazy for kids sport and a sad reflection on our society as well.
The soap box has now been put away.
VMX42
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I'll back up VMX42 on that one...
Having been an organiser of events in clubs for many, many years, I am very aware of the traps and pitfalls of the insurance/riding cost debate.
Unfortunately, it's all too easy to gloss over the realities of the legal system, when brainstorming on a forum such as this for ways to make event easy and cheap. The reality is somewhat different, especially when its your house on the line. ;)
The bottom line is that in Australia, indemnity waivers have until recently, been considered by lawers to be not worth the paper they are written on and that has led to the need to have insurance. I say until recently, as the rising cost of said insurance has finally led the Governments to rewrite the laws somewhat for "high risk" activities so that the waivers might actually mean something. The operative word here being "might", as I don't believe the new limitation laws have been tested in court yet. They could still be worthless for all we know.
So until it is widely accepted that waivers are absolute, i.e. enter at you own risk means just that, then insurance costs are here to stay, but the new waiver has reduced or capped those costs.
My 2c worth (we must be up to about $3.46 in opinions now) on the missing persons debate is as follows;
1. Holding a lot of racing-only events is not a good idea. Older people don't have the time to ride so often and many don't want to race anymore, as they have "been there, done that" in their earlier riding years.
2. Ride days or unscored racing is a good idea and should be done more often. But not on the Saturday of a race meeting...as an event on a Sunday in thier own right, instead of competitive racing.
3. Entry on the day without penalty fees should be be mandatory for club days. Entry on the day should also be OK even for larger meetings, with a nominal penalty fee (e.g. $10-20) applied. Organising the motos should be able to be done during the practice period, it's not rocket science. A lot of people don't know for sure if they can make it to an event until just before and having penalties imposed is a big turn off. A club should have confidence in the fact that people will want to come to thier events and be able to gauge how many people will show up, without forcing them to pre-enter.
4. Events should include extra activities such as show n shines, BBQs, social activity.
5. Better coordination/thought about event scheduling throughout Australia. We have had way too many event conflicts recently which don't help anyone. Email makes it pretty easy nowadays to coordinate with other clubs... ::) In particular, NO other vintage events should be scheduled on the same weekend as Vintage National Title events.
6. Tracks should be Vintage bike friendly - regular modern MX tracks are a big turn off to many older riders, along with being actually dangerous and bike wreckers. If this means the clubs having to find more farmers paddocks to use as tracks, then so be it. ;)
Well, that would be my wishlist.
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I propose we build a bridge to NZ ;D okay..I'll shut up now :P
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Ajay i Concur this is Nailin git on the head !
1. Holding a lot of racing-only events is not a good idea. Older people don't have the time to ride so often and many don't want to race anymore, as they have "been there, done that" in their earlier riding years.
2. Ride days or unscored racing is a good idea and should be done more often. But not on the Saturday of a race meeting...as an event on a Sunday in thier own right, instead of competitive racing.
3. Entry on the day without penalty fees should be be mandatory for club days. Entry on the day should also be OK even for larger meetings, with a nominal penalty fee (e.g. $10-20) applied. Organising the motos should be able to be done during the practice period, it's not rocket science. A lot of people don't know for sure if they can make it to an event until just before and having penalties imposed is a big turn off. A club should have confidence in the fact that people will want to come to thier events and be able to gauge how many people will show up, without forcing them to pre-enter.
4. Events should include extra activities such as show n shines, BBQs, social activity.
5. Better coordination/thought about event scheduling throughout Australia. We have had way too many event conflicts recently which don't help anyone. Email makes it pretty easy nowadays to coordinate with other clubs... ::) In particular, NO other vintage events should be scheduled on the same weekend as Vintage National Title events.
6. Tracks should be Vintage bike friendly - regular modern MX tracks are a big turn off to many older riders, along with being actually dangerous and bike wreckers. If this means the clubs having to find more farmers paddocks to use as tracks, then so be it. ;)
Well, that would be my wishlist.
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Hey Doc,
Can you imagine the cost of the bridge toll. It would make flying look cheap if tolls in Sydney are anything to go by.
VMX42
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:o I hadn't figured in the cost of a toll vmx42 :-[..plan B..fill in the ditch and drive across ;D
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Lucky you're not in NSW Doc...our state Government would be wanting to Tunnel across and then charge a toll as well. ::)
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I think that the only bridge to be built is the one some of you need to get over it...
I’ve never had any problems with Heaven with compliance, what part is what, can’t use this or that etc.
The forks on my 77 RM appear to be wrong; they hang below the axel for the anal among us. They could be same year 125 forks or could be the off limits cheater 78 C2 ones – dread.
I told the club, they said just sign up... so I did. I raced. I got my arse handed to me.
Earlier in the year in the supposed pre 78 open class on the last lap I got passed for 24th or 25th place by a guy clearly riding a PE400 that wasn’t pre 78 – shame.
The only thing I cared about was - did I put my chair close to the esky so I didn’t have to get up twice for a drink. All he and I could do was laugh at each other about the pass and the fact we we’re cramping up sitting in our chairs. Great guy, good times.
I could put every bit of trickery and clickery on my bike and the only chance I have of winning is being in the porta-loo when al Qaeda guns down the start line of my moto.
Nice pun firko, and I agree that at times he may have an acerbic nature, but where would the club be if he and the others didn’t step in a few years ago and devote their considerable time to it?
I wouldn’t have been able to join this year, and some would have nothing to bitch about.
... and I think signing up in advance is perfect. Saves a lot of BS on the day for club officials (having been one for a couple of years with HDMCC) who are already stretched with last minute things. If you don’t put a financial penalty we’ll all just rock up and not help the club by pre-entering.
It’s not like they keep your money if you give them plenty of notice. I got caught interstate for the last race and they just rolled the entry over for the last round of the year. Good people.
The pits rules and the no photos for VMX is BS and should be rectified forevermore.
These are good people and they VOULUNTEER.
Every office is open, so put your bitching to good use and run for an office. Otherwise shut up and ride (wasn’t that on a t-shirt?).
I don’t care if they elect Sheikh Taj El Din al-Hilaly pres of HEAVEN, I’m still showing up when I’m allowed out of the house unsupervised.
Merci beaucoup.
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I reckon there are a few reasons why guys aren't turning up any more but eligibility isn't one of them. My bike is clearly illegal as the rules are, but hey, it's fun to ride and who gives a shit. I've NEVER seen an eligibility issue at a Heaven meeting and I don't think anyone has ever been beaten in a race because of a bike cheating issue, it's always the rider.
I know guys who don't turn up any more for work, health or money reasons but disgruntlement is also an issue. I speak to heaps of guys and seem to hear a similar story from quite a few, and a couple of times I have spoken up I've been shut down, even being told in one instance by a very senior committee member that I had " single handedly forked the sport of vintage motocross in NSW" . Therefore, no more, I'll just do what I want, when I want.
This year I've been to Jack Hogg, Coffs Dirt Track, Coffs Nationals, Classic Dirt, Conondale Classic, Wagga Nationals and Canberra Heaven (riding Saturday and not racing Sunday) and have had a really good year. Great variety and some terrificly good times. I just wish everyone could get on and be happy, and understand the difference between a political debate and an argument. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you need to turn and disassociate yourself from them.
Sadly, over the last few years I've seen some real agro between people of like minds and similar loves, especially when blokes are treated with disrespect. As grown men that is one thing that none of us will tolerate. You either stand and fight or walk away. Sadly, a lot of guys have chosen to walk away.
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Sorry Guys,
I must have missed something here. I can't remember bagging HEAVEN. This post was started and has evolved into people offering helpful suggestions as to why some riders haven't stayed with the sport.
Nobody has specifically bagged HEAVEN but there has been discussion as to why Classic Dirt numbers are up significantly and attendance is down at some race meetings. Simple as that. I can't see any bitchin' just constructive ideas.
Actually I think that most of the posters on this thread have been genuinely constructive and positive in their comments.
Good to hear that there have been no eligility issues with HEAVEN, the subject was only raised because in the past it has been a issue at other events and therefore could have contributed to the decline in numbers.
All the people who volunteer should be applauded - that wasn't the purpose of this discussion. There have been some great ideas thrown around in this thread. Where we go from here to try to turn that into bums on seats at events I don't know. But it isn't a bad starting point.
Magoo asked the question and people have tried to answer, nothing more - nothing less. Nobody needs to be defended because nobody has been attacked - if they [whoever they are?] feel they have been then I for one am happy to offer an appology but from where I am sitting it has been an enlightening discussion done without resorting to anything personal.
Good work in my book and a positive use of this fine forum.
VMX42
P.S. and Magoo, I don't think you could single handedly f@#k anything, you would need both hands at least!!!
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regardless of club level, at a national level or state titles event your bike has to be pre 75 legal or it makes the whole event a joke.
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Evil Rudy :o :o :o :o :o :o
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regardless of club level, at a national level or state titles event your bike has to be pre 75 legal or it makes the whole event a joke.
Hopefully you mean Pre78?
and of course there should soon be EVO/pre 85 Nationals, surely? ;)
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(http://www.j-k.gr/emos/2/Slap_emoticon_-_Faster.gif)(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/22/34407038_15cbbe36c5_o.gif)
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On a positive note :) DJ & myself bang on about how great VMX is this side of the ditch and it is , but i must say that the events iv'e ridden at and attended in Aus have always been awsome events to .
Some of the things i really like over there are :)
1. Reasonably full grids of same capacity same era bikes ( Here we tend to combine classes )
2. Racing on proper tracks with jumps and start gates ( natural terrain & Bungys here )
3. Awesome friendly people who make you feel you have been mates forever ( Ditto here )
Bottom line is that i beleive that VMX is alive and healthy on both sides of the Tasman and long may it remain that way :)
The discussions on this forum show that all involved have a huge passion for the sport and recreation side of VMX and that it will continue to evolve .
Im already planning my trip to the Tassie nats and i am hoping some more from this side will join me .
Stay upright stay positive Bill ;)
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Look at the “views” this thread has gotten – over 1400! Everyone loves a train wreck.
So after a couple of Merlots, a Scotch and counting to 10 like an episode of Sesame Street I offer this…
Wow the pre 78 barb was amusing, however given that you didn't demonstrate an understanding of the context of my essay or the specific reference to the racing class mentioned, it's disappointing that you use the English language for a living. Love the pictures though.
Also, trying to elicit a debate on a “Nationals” class for EVO and pre-85 won't work as I have no developed opinion at this time. Which is a polite way of saying I don't give a flying f*ck in f*ck-storm.
If I'm off base in my reading of your comments, I apologize in advance for the misunderstanding. I'm psychotic not psychic so I don't read in tongues let alone speak them.
As for the passive aggressive “hey now, lets all get along – no one’s attacking anybody“ vanilla smoothie, I think you too have also missed the point of my mild flareup.
Again if I'm missing your point, please accept my hollow apology, I have a spine.
Both of you – please don't cut me off from my quarterly fix - I beg you.
At issue (and not just in this thread) is that it seems the only club / state / people having a bitch on the site reside in NSW and may have had something to do with HEAVEN.
At least I know what to give out at Christmas. Bras.
Some of you can bitch more than my mother – (in a sweat way, with no harm intended of course).
I digress.
Don't get so bent because you don't get your own way with this or that. In a world of immediate gratification I know this can be hard, but if things are so bad, run for office next weekend and fix it.
Don't get so bent that you stay home. Come to the meetings when possible in spite of the people you disagree with.
Don't get so bent you type polite jabs at people trying to do their best.
Don't get so bent.
Maybe we should take a leaf (or a ewe) from our Kiwi brethren and all just have a drink and a great time. It appears (on the surface) that sex with quadrupeds soothes the savage pre 75 racer.
Not that I've insulted and verbally maimed at will, let the slings and arrows begin.
A “shot across the bow” from Nathan perhaps?
Or a skerrick of smite from Merrick? (You know I must digress further here. Something is deeply wrong with a go fast - chain smoking accountant… love your work).
I will also have extra beer at Clarence to suck up to those I have offended. I hope you show up. It will be a better weekend with you than without you.
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what tha ????????????????????????????
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Thats a long letter Rudi , but what do you mean ???.
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Evil Rudy :o :o :o :o :o :o :o you bloody crazy (Americian or Canadian "can't remember")
Come over to and see me at Clarence . Im pretty sure we had a great talk and a great time at Canberra last year. (Is that the same person???????) ex AF and recon. etc???? its been about a year
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Giday Guys just got back from holidays after attending Wagga so sorry I havnt put in my comments earlier.Magoo you big lump you beat me in the 125 class and to think I was encouraging you over to the dark side (wont do that again) Thanks to Wagga Club for keeping our title alive.Thanks to Dave Tanner for the loan of his 125 Kawasaki when after a total rebuild of the Sickman we kicked it over only to discover it was blowing gearbox oil out of the exhaust pipe. Sorry to the guy on the immaculate Honda sitting behind me in the pits who ended up with all that oil over his bike!! Very dissappointed that as riders we didnt support the event and through no fault of the Club age groups had to be put together to give decent grids. I felt very sorry for the likes of Donny newell and our other legends who rode against riders from 16 years and up without bitching but must be considering wheather it will be worthwhile to enter again under those circumstances (again no fault of Wagga I blame ourselves as riders for not backing the event) Now lets look at why and this is my 2 bobs worth. After talking to Firko leading up to our moto-x titles at Coffs and many people leading up to Wagga our Club will be putting in a submission to M.A. and the Commisioners with a few things that we feel need to change for hopefully the good of the sport.As we counted the cost of actually doing the whole trip we worked out from Coffs in our bus we used $500.00 in fuel. Cost to enter was $160.00. About $200.00 in food & drinks along the way and you can see in todays economic climate that we could be cutting some of our Senior riders out straight away. 1st point is to diminish the cost from M.A. to even run the event. Permit fees of over $3000.00 for a Club to host a National Title in vintage are totally out of touch with a sport that is struggling to get enough entries to even run the event.If this permit fee is reduced Clubs can reduce their entry fee. 2nd piont is to bring the age groups from 10 needed on the grid to constitute a Championship down to 5. We are losing our older riders anyway and thats not going to change its an age thing and we all know its happening but we must still support the older riders willing and wanting to compete, they are our history and need to be given every recognition as do the bikes they ride because we will lose that side also. M.A. must also be willing to enforce no other like minded events 2 weeks before and after a National Title to give people more opportunity to step out of Club Championships and other favoured events and attend a title. Again thank you very much Wagga I had a mixed weekend with bikes heat exhaustion and flys(where did all the flys in the whole world come from) but would not have missed it. I will grab any other points of view off you guys for our submission if thats o.k. and I urge you all to put pen to paper as if you want a change its the only way to get there.
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Hi Don.
I think your suggestions re the National Titles are very well intentioned however in particular, reducing grid sizes to make a National Title class viable is not a good idea in my opinion. It devalues the meaning of the title "Australian Champion" in my eyes and would also make running the event even more difficult than it already is.
I have empathy for the older riders having to compete with the younger riders, but I always come back to the view that for the National Titles, which is after all a very serious race event, the emphasis must be on who is fastest, not how many titles we can award on a single day.
Also IMHO, small grids of riders in Vintage race meetings are part of the problem that is causing people to leave the sport. They mean that you get less riding for your dollar, as it's just logistically impossible to run more rounds of racing on a given day when you have 20 classes compared to say, 10. I am a strong believer that like classes should be combined to make large grids and then if necessary, the classes can be scored separately from the results. This would make for better racing overall and also enable clubs to get through more rounds of racing in a single day. This would also be true for the Nationals.
And of course, NO vintage events should be run anywhere in Australia on the same day as a National title, to try and ensure we give the title event the best possible chance of drawing the numbers required to make it viable. Some may see this as being directed at HEAVEN - it is, by the way (sorry Rudi ;)), but it could easily apply to any other club that runs an event in competition to a national title event. HEAVEN's decision to reschedule the EVO challenge on the same weekend of the Wagga DT Titles (even though everyone knew that the DT titles were on the calendar) was a poor one indeed. ???
Notwithstanding the above, the National Titles are not the issue here as far as I can tell. The real issue is the grass roots numbers of riders participating in club events. If the overall numbers of clubs riders was stronger than it is now, it's highly likely that events such as the Nationals would be better attended and the class and cost issues, while still significant, would be less of a problem.
So as this thread progresses, I come back to the idea that we need to have less serious race events and more events which emphasise the FUN aspects of our sport. If we do that, I'm sure the old boys will return... ;)
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Hi Ajay let me clarify that a bit.I agree with grid sizes being kept at maximum. But I am talking about age groups. If anyone thinks that a 74 year old can compete with a 30-35 year old on an equal footing is quiet frankly wrong as evidanced at Wagga.They to their credit had full grids but at presentation I dont think I saw anyone over mid 40s take a title.If you limited the age grouping to 5 to make a Championship class you could still group 2 age groups together and have a full grid with the riders at least knowing they had a shot at a title.At Coffs we have run Aus titles in the past and have run 96 races on the day so all things are possible.I talked to a couple of riders before the event who had entered but pulled out because all ages were grouped together, so I know this will occur more in the future if as riders we dont get the numbers back up.
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Gee , that would mean a lot of trophies and lots of champions.Similar to minibikes.
After all this the Australian Champion ships , where the best man wins no matter what his age or gender is.
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Vintage racing is a different ball game to "regular" racing and the two shouldn't be compared. The key to the success of vintage racing during the first decade or so was the age group concept. The chance to race against riders of similar age was the "leveler" that defined vintage racing and was instrumental in bringing a lot of older racers out of retitrement. It created a level playing field of sorts that allowed the 60 year old racer to avoid racing the 16 year old kamikaze.
What many of you don't seem to understand is how the age groups and championships operated together at the Nats during the boom years. I'll try and explain.....
Originally there were three distinct age groups..Under 30, 30-39 (generically called over 30) and over 40. In later years as riders got older, an over 50 class was introduced. At the Nats racers in these particular age groups raced for the championship with the winners being declared (for instance) "The Over 30, 250 Australian Classic Motocross Champion" or whatever the case may be. These championships were regarded by all within the vintage movement as proper championships however,they are not and have never been regarded as official Championships by MA so no MA gongs were presented for those wins.
At the same race meeting they also ran the legitimate all in all age championship races which were regarded by MA as the only true championship and therefore MA medals (gongs) were presented to all place getters. Within the Vintage movement a win in an age championship was regarded just as highly as the official all in championship by most competitors. You were a champion amongst your peers and that's all that mattered. The age groups were only used for 125, 250 and 500 classes. Pre 60, Pre 65, Pre 70 and four stroke were all in age groups and the winners and placegetters in those classes also recieved MA medals.
It really annoys me when I read criticism of the age group system from people who have never experienced it. I rarely hear any criticisms of the system from those who competed under it and in fact the demise of the age group system is often given as the reason that many old school racers dropped out of the sport. It was quite simply the most important drawcard in attracting older riders into the sport and you can match the beginning of the decline in participation with the abolition of age group racing. It is an integral part of Vintage racings DNA and it needs to be brought back as soon as possible.
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Not that I've insulted and verbally maimed at will, let the slings and arrows begin.
A “shot across the bow” from Nathan perhaps?
Or a skerrick of smite from Merrick? (You know I must digress further here. Something is deeply wrong with a go fast - chain smoking accountant… love your work).
I will also have extra beer at Clarence to suck up to those I have offended. I hope you show up. It will be a better weekend with you than without you.
Will be there next week Rudy and looking forward to a beer/J.D, and a chat although have a lot of trouble with that thick pommy accent of yours ;D, and a carton of winnies, wouldnt miss it for the world,
Also like the age thing Firko, would like to see it back so hopefully no event clashes, lots of ex riders showing up and age based riding in the important events, just all need to be corelated together and its all good ;)
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What many of you don't seem to understand is how the age groups and championships operated together at the Nats during the boom years. I'll try and explain.....
Originally there were three distinct age groups..Under 30, 30-39 (generically called over 30) and over 40. In later years as riders got older, an over 50 class was introduced. At the Nats racers in these particular age groups raced for the championship with the winners being declared (for instance) "The Over 30, 250 Australian Classic Motocross Champion" or whatever the case may be. These championships were regarded by all within the vintage movement as proper championships however,they are not and have never been regarded as official Championships by MA so no MA gongs were presented for those wins.
At the same race meeting they also ran the legitimate all in all age championship races which were regarded by MA as the only true championship and therefore MA medals (gongs) were presented to all place getters. Within the Vintage movement a win in an age championship was regarded just as highly as the official all in championship by most competitors. You were a champion amongst your peers and that's all that mattered. The age groups were only used for 125, 250 and 500 classes. Pre 60, Pre 65, Pre 70 and four stroke were all in age groups and the winners and placegetters in those classes also recieved MA medals.
It really annoys me when I read criticism of the age group system from people who have never experienced it. I rarely hear any criticisms of the system from those who competed under it and in fact the demise of the age group system is often given as the reason that many old school racers dropped out of the sport. It was quite simply the most important drawcard in attracting older riders into the sport and you can match the beginning of the decline in participation with the abolition of age group racing. It is an integral part of Vintage racings DNA and it needs to be brought back as soon as possible.
Firko,
I expressed an opinion concerning Don's suggestion that at the nationals that the number of people required to constitute a class be lowered from 10 to 5 and he also linked that initially (but in his clarification incorrectly) to grid sizes at the Nationals. I indicated that classes could and should be combined to utilise track time more efficiently and allow people to have more races in any given day. I also indicated, which you appear to have missed, that classes could still be scored separately with a single race - that of course can still include age classes of course. But the reality is that with the overall lack of entries at the Nationals, it's inevitable that the younger riders will end up on the track at the same time as the older guys. Frankly, I see this as a good thing. If you're a serious racer (and you should be if you're racing the Nationals), you wouldn't mind the challenge and satisifaction of showing the younger competitors who can still cut the mustard... ;) I'm hoping that Don Newell gets a great deal of personal satisfaction in being as fast as he is, even though he is now one of our older competitiors.
Back to the chase though, there is no reason whatsoever why age classes can't be the determining factor in setting up racing classes. There just happens to be nowhere near enough people in each age class to justify their existance, in addition to the multitude of bike ages and capacity classes. So probably a decision should be made which is more important in determining a class - bike age/capacity or age of rider... one thing's for sure, you can't logistically do both with the numbers of riders showing up at present.
But again, I still don't see the racing as being the be-all end-all for the Vintage Dirt bike scene as a whole, as I still don't think that a pure age class system would bring back most of the older guys that don't race anymore. I lot of them either just don't want to race a motorcycle any more, having done it a hellava lot in the past and some can't race or even ride for physical reasons. But they can be a part of the scene and we need to have events that encourage them to get involved again. ;)
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Firko, Ajay and oldschool are ALL right. The only way to fix the problem is for all of us to hassle, annoy and pester our old mates to turn up and the rest will look after itself. The cause of the whole situation is the lack of entries. At Wagga the other week we had an absolute blast with 70 odd riders, if we doubled that we would have had perfection.
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...It created a level playing field of sorts that allowed the 60 year old racer to avoid racing the 16 year old kamikaze.
What many of you don't seem to understand is how the age groups and championships operated together at the Nats during the boom years. I'll try and explain.....
Originally there were three distinct age groups..Under 30, 30-39 (generically called over 30) and over 40. In later years as riders got older, an over 50 class was introduced. At the Nats racers in these particular age groups raced for the championship with the winners being declared (for instance) "The Over 30, 250 Australian Classic Motocross Champion" or whatever the case may be. These championships were regarded by all within the vintage movement as proper championships however,they are not and have never been regarded as official Championships by MA so no MA gongs were presented for those wins.
At the same race meeting they also ran the legitimate all in all age championship races which were regarded by MA as the only true championship and therefore MA medals (gongs) were presented to all place getters. Within the Vintage movement a win in an age championship was regarded just as highly as the official all in championship by most competitors. You were a champion amongst your peers and that's all that mattered. The age groups were only used for 125, 250 and 500 classes. Pre 60, Pre 65, Pre 70 and four stroke were all in age groups and the winners and placegetters in those classes also recieved MA medals.
Were the races for the unofficial age groups seperate or 'all-in and scored seperately'?
I recall the former (not that I was racing then!).
From where we are now (with too few riders to fill grids in three or four age categories), which is the better option:
Should we run races that are age specific so nobody has to fear being carved up by a testosterone-fuelled 17 year old, but risk having two or three blokes riding around by themselves?
Or should we run all-in classes and award trophies to the best placed riders within their age groups, but risk having the older blokes shy away because they don't want to be on the track with the loony youngsters?
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For shit sake, how crazy are your 16-20year old riders ??? And why not just have 2 age group races if there is enough riders for that. 16-35 and 36 & over, and you can still split the classes after that via the lap scoring sheets.
Can I ask a question here on your rules? Are you allowed to crash 'n burn other riders over there?
If your MX is like ours, were it is a 'non contact sport' then why arent these 'kamikaze, testosterone-fueled, looney youngsters' getting at least told to keep it under control or even banded for the day or losting all there points?
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What about two gate drops? Works a treat at my club. Women go first, then pre '85. Over 30's go first, then over 40's. Every class is scored seperately. That would be as close to a magic bullet that you'd get. And that may only be a solution to the racers.
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For shit sake, how crazy are your 16-20year old riders ???
They're not even a little bit crazy. Either they're good enough that they get the holeshot and clear off, or they're just like the rest of us and know that pain hurts...
If the older blokes want age categories so they've got a realisitic competitive goal, then I fully support it.
If they want to dress it up by talking about the young "lunatics", then I suggest they should be careful that they're not inadvertantly turning away the younger guys who want to become part of the old bike scene.
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Nathan the age group races were seperate from the all in championship classes. Funnily enough, they were more prestigious within the sport tham the official championship races. The fear of 16 year old crazies was a minor distraction, the main reason the age groupings were so popular was the riders wish to race with their peer groups.
At times the two age group system was used with under and over 35 being the seperations. It worked a treat with no major problems. I'd be more inclined to go with that seperation these days with the possible inclusion of an over 50 or maybe 55 class.
From my perspective,this discussion is purely relating to the use of age groups at the Nationals. I don't really care what individual clubs do on their days. I don't race and now I'm more interested in seeing more non competition activity within the club day structure. But the Nats is the Nats and it needs to maintain its traditions and position as the flagship of our sport. Age groups are what made it unique in the world of motocross and it worked. It worked so well that derirative of the system was used very successfully by the Thumpernats.
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The Victorian Classic Club run year/capacity classes in the mornings with 2 each of the previously mentioned age group races in the afternoon. Year/Capacity races are scored for, but the age groups do not contribute to points total. Racing against your mates is what it is all about. Is NSW the only state having problems ?
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Giday Guys I am glad we are getting some feedback which will help me with my submission.Remember the first part of all of this was how do we get numbers back up. I know that the age group thing was something I have discussed with other riders and I know it is turning riders away I also know of another half a dozen riders who went to Wagga myself included that did so only to support Wagga and the Titles but were not so keen to compete in an all in age group.Also bear in mind that at Wagga they ran heats to get to a 12 grid final so maybe with a bit of thought we could have had an under and over 40 year old or 50 year old ? To give you another example myself and quite a few other riders were going to the Crawford Classic for a couple of years and loved it every time ---had a heap of fun but kept lining up with 3 quarters of the grid being under 40s and new you didnt have a rats chance of being in the points so were putting a heap of effort into an event that didnt mean anything to us. Now dont get me wrong I totally support all the younger riders getting into Vintage because without them we have no future and us older riders will have no sport at all.When we ran the Vintage MX Titles in Coffs we faced the same problem with having to have 10 riders to make it a championship. With M.A.s help we grouped everybody in ages as close as we could and we pleased most of the riders who at least appreciated our efforts. This is only a submission and M.A. may not even give it a consideration but if we dont try somethings we are going backwards.By the way Magoo your still a big lump and I hope to get revenge if you come to Coffs.Next question is what else do we have to do to get riders back, ask yourself what more do I want from a meeting to make me want to go???
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Hey Don,
I hear what you (and Firko) are saying about the age classes, but if they are being offered anyway (and I understood they were intended to be run at Wagga if the numbers justifed them) the old blokes should be entering in their droves right? Clearly that did not happen in Wagga, nor at Coffs.
Maybe the age class thing (in theory attractive to the mass of older riders), isn't the real reason they aren't racing. Talk is easy: when the older guys say that they don't want to race the younger guys, they may be really saying they just don't want to race at all.... ;)
I still think the bottom line is that there's a lot of older guys still interested in the vintage bikes that are not participating the in the scene now, for a range of reasons. I also think that if the "right" circumstances presented themselves, that these guys may be interested to come out and play again. All we have to do is create these circumstances.
Without patting myself, Ken and Jeff too much on the back, I think the re-emergence of Classic Dirt on an annual basis, will be a positive influence on rekindling the interest for some of the non-racers. Hopefully this will flow on to fun, non-competitive events being held at the club level also.
I also think we need to bring back the fun not only in the social/non-competitive events, but also the competitive ones. Less focus on pointscores, more focus on fun and "social racing". Less racing for sheep stations... ::) More BBQs and Bench Racing. ;)
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Thanks AJVMX and maybe your right and if thats not the answer I will keep looking. Not overlooking what your saying about other types of events either and I think the Coffs Dirt Track in March is starting to grow in numbers for that very reason, we still race competively --we race in age groups--- we race in capacities---we have a show and shine---we have the best catered for saturday night meal---we have a great friendly club---I think in 08 we will be having a trials demo on saturday morning---and also if we can pull it of we will be racing under lights saturday night---you coming or do I need more??
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So if you have old and young blokes racing on the track at the same time, for different awards, is this a problem or not?
(As a [relatively] young bloke, I wager Yes - I hate getting rounded up by guys older than my dad... :P )
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Accessability. tis the tyranny of distance.
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What's the problem with accessability Freaky? When the Motocross Nats were on in Tanunda in '95 and Port Pirie in 2000 a large number of riders came from as far away as Queensland. Shit I towed four bikes on a three bike trailer from Sydney to Tanunda behind an almost rooted VB 253 Commodore in '95 for my last ever Nats ride, I was so keen to be there. There were a lot more just like me too. Distance is nothing if you're keen.
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Exactly
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Giday Nathan in answer to your question we try where ever possible to separate younger and older age groupings but still come to maximum grids.Why not come up and see for yourself.Should have a big field of sidecars as well.
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Exactly
distance helps thats all im saying, make em accessable and they will come.
and where the hell is Tununda, sounds red neck to me. :D
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Accessable to who Freaky? You? I went to the Tanunda and Port Pirie Nats and the first WA Nats as well and agree with Firko that accessability is nothing if you've got a reliable car, a quid in your pocket and a will to ride the event. Using distance is a cop out. You're surely taking the piss not knowing where Tanunda is, right?
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I think the real issue is wanting to ride isn't it? ::)
All other stuff becomes irrelevant if you truly want to do something.... ;)
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Finally we are there. I am one of those one event per year racers. If the circumstances and the atmosphere is right , distance or weather has no meaning. I fully agree with AJ . And like I said it before , CD s have all the igredients and thats why the numbers are there.
If you made 5 CD per year , it would all fall in a heap. It takes me 11 months to clean my bike and heal my body. :)
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Hi Guys,
I think you are missing the point of this thread slightly, or maybe it has just diverted slightly off course.
It is not about 'wanting to go' to an event. There will always be people who will do anything to attend. We are trying to find a way to attract the fence sitters back to events. The hard core will always find a way to attend.
Also, the argument that age classifications were vital back in the day - no argument there [and they are still relevant to Championship events]. But with the utmost respect we are trying to look forward and look for alternatives to attract participants/spectators/etc to the sport.
And as for "all other stuff becoming irrelevant if you truely want to do something…" well I suggest you let you significant other read that statement and see if the bravado is still intact. If it were that easy we wouldn't be having this discussion - life is a bit more complicated than that, we aren't 18 anymore.
I think if you read Donnies post you can see where we should be heading. The Coffs boys [and girls] know how to put on an event [not just a boring 'same old, same old' club day]. They look at last years event and try to add to it each time, they aren't scared of trying something different to see if it works.
We would be better trimming some dates from the calendar and putting on a smaller number of quality events. You need people to think that if they don't attend then they are going to be missing out on something special. Include significant social participation and we could be onto something.
Back to you
VMX42
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Accessable to who Freaky? You? I went to the Tanunda and Port Pirie Nats and the first WA Nats as well and agree with Firko that accessability is nothing if you've got a reliable car, a quid in your pocket and a will to ride the event. Using distance is a cop out. You're surely taking the piss not knowing where Tanunda is, right?
No as in easy accessable to 'all', including spectators this is an all encompassing question.
How do you measure success and numbers ? are they even the same thing ?
A venue caters for a few old retirees who can pack up and travel the road and shout commiment or one somewhere central so all folks, there familys, work , wife, life commitments and other Real life stuff can be accomodated so you get more people out? This thread touches on getting out the old boys, but what about boosting the sport with family and freinds and widening the circle at these events, a national event should be all encompasing, to be a better and bigger event you cant just count on shouting commitment, it will only get you 20 rider at best, wagga may be a yard stick, what else could have been done there to get more people involve, what else swap meets, family day, timed with the local fair day, i dont know im just thinking a bit bigger here, if its going to be a bigger event, or are you wanting to set up a secret handshake and keep numbers low ?
i thought this thread was about how to get more scope, more people and a bigger result i got the feeling for a moment you guys where trying to get a bigger national event, and not end up with the same 15 guys riding and a few hangers on ? ( and no im not having a go at anyone before i get roasted again.) I was simply adding the point - you need to make it accessable in the equation, if you make it in FNQ or in tununda your less likely to get the feilds you hope to start to generate.
I for one would welcome Tununda as its only down the road, but rather than race against 7 other die hards that can afford to make that trip, the reality is for a truly NAtional full event it needs to be central like Vic or at worse canberra :O).
Im brainstorming here and pointing out the obvious, so work with me. :'(
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With due respect to the fine people of Port Pirie South Australia, you couldn't get a more inaccessible shithole than Pirie. It's miles from Adelaide, hot, dusty and smells funny but they still had 200 entries for the VMX Nats in 2000. It was a great meeting. What we have to do to get the Nats (both VMX and VDT) back to their rightful position as the pinnacle of our sport is to make it something you want to go to.
Past history has shown that travel isn't The problem. The WA guys who travel all over Australia every year do it because they love it and the vintage racers that have chased the big meetings all over the country for years have done it because it was a great adventure. No matter where you hold an event it's sure to be inconvenient for somebody.
What we do need to do though is to make the Nats a cheaper event, both for promoters and competitors. I can't understand why MA charges small clubs running minor meetings that just happen to have the word Championship in the title the same fees as a big comercial promoter who can easily recoup that money with through the gate spectator takings and sponsorship income. Once that inquality is addressed maybe we can see the lower costs passed on to the competitor. As well as making it cheaper we need to make the Nats attractive. We need to make it an icon meeting that everyone wants to race at. Not every one is a winner and most racers ride the Nats for the experience knowing quite well they won't win a trophy. These blokes are the heart of what our sports about and they need to be looked after by offering age group categories again. At the risk of repeating myself, age group racing is the single most obvious attraction that our section of the sport can offer that others don't. It works better than any other feature in keeping the Joe Average rider happy and interested.
If the high costs are reduced, age groups reintroduced and the party/festival atmosphere emphasised as strongly as the racing, these meetings will come back as big, if not bigger than in the past. It can be done but just talking about it on a forum isn't going to do it. We need to lobby MA through our commissioners to to lower the costs and if that succeeds the others points will be quickly self repair.
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Can someone clarify a couple of points for me regarding the Wagga DT nationals.
1. Were age classes initially in the sup regs? (I thought that the original intention was to run age classes)
2. What was the entry fee per class?
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I was just reading this thread after returning to work from a Melbourne Cup lunch and a question jumped into my head.
Would it be feasible to combine the Nats with Classic Dirt ???
The logistics would need some serious planning and if the venue was suitable it could accommodate all aspects of the VMX movement in the one long weekend. Separate committees could be formed, one to look after the 'event' and another to look after the race meet, and if promoted well it could draw the enthusiast restorers as well as the racers...
HHmmmm...
How would you fit in all the classes and free ride sessions in the one weekend?
Who would still have enough energy to race after a few days of riding, beer, bullshitting, sleeping on the ground, riding, margaritas, Fernando's potion, etc, etc... sounds like hell....
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Sorry, I can squash that one right at the outset. It aint gonna happen. ;)
The requirements for the two different types of event are completely opposite, so it probably wouldn't work, even if it were theoretically possible. Certainly there is no spare track time at either event to run the other activity (racing or free riding).
In any case, we are busy enough organising Classic Dirt without having the added issues of having to run races etc... :o
That's what clubs are for. ;)
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In some crazy way i think we are all agreeing on the same thing, 3 big events in the year, Dirt nats, MX nats, and the Cd. All are seperate promoted and individual. I guess taking a note from firko, whats the next step ? how does all these 8 pages end up being used to initiate somthing positive. OuR MAsa is run by inbreeding and youll never get mother and daughter to agree to anything they dont like or want to pass on, so what else can be done on a national level rather than than state lobbying to leverage our combined opinions for a better vintage sport ?
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Giday AJVMX age groups were definitely in the Supp Regs but my initial point was you must have 10 riders to constitute a Championship Class, now if we had only 6 riders in the over 50s they would then have to be grouped with the next age group down say the 40 to 50 year olds, if you only had 3 of that age group then you still only had 9 riders and there fore not enough so you would have had to go to 30 to 40 years old which may have had 9 riders so all of a sudden through no ones fault except lack of rider entries you had everyone lumped together into one age group. Now because of late entries as a rider you find out about this just before going to the event with the outcome that some riders pulled the pin and were not racing as an all in age group which meant smaller fields again and riders that may not turn up to the next event. M point here is that if we got M.A. to drop that rule to only 5 riders needed to make it a Championship class we may be able to entice some of those riders back. The other point is if you have a meeting where the riders are not happy for whatever reason you are making it that much harder for the next Club to even want to put up their hand to host this event because of low numbers.The entry fee was $100 plus an extra $20 for every extra bike.At Coffs we do everything we can to keep that below $100, but with an M.A. fee of $3000 plus an ambulance fee for us of $3000 you have a starting $6000 that you have to find before you add all your other costs in.
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Thanks for the info Don.
I asked the question because there is the argument being put forward that having the age classes available will solve the problem. My point is that the age classes WERE available for both Nationals events this year.
But as you point out the age classes struggled to meet the minimum of 10 to be a viable championship class... ???
Clearly the age class thing, while a factor, is NOT the primary reason for a lack of attendance at the Nationals, as they just didn't enter in sufficient numbers, period. As far as the entrants were concerned, the age classes were happening (being in the sup regs). They had no way of knowing that their age class would be combined with other classes, when they actually made the decision to enter or not.
On the cost/accessibility issue the MA fees, while considerable, are not any concern of the riders when deciding to enter either, unless the entry fee is pushed up to stratospheric amounts. When promoted well, national title events also have more significant streams of sponsorship revenues, that can easily offset the increased MA fees to some extent, if not completely.
Personally, I consider the $100 entry fee for a National Title event to be very reasonable indeed. It probably should have bene more than that (in 2007). :o
It is small change in the total cost associated with riding in the Nationals for most entrants, when you take Petrol, Accomodation, Food, Bike tyres into account (just to name a few). Even if the entry fee dropped to $50, in reality that's not going to suddenly bring in 100 more riders.
So from my point of view, the pendulum of blame for lack of attendances must swing away from age classes and cost/accessibility and here we are, back at square one.
Q: Why don't more people enter the nationals?
A: There simply isn't enough people currently racing pre 78 VMX in Australia now for there to be a large dedicated group that will go the extra mile to race the National titles.
What we all have to do is get the overall participation rate up and then events like the Nationals will take care of themselves, I believe. :)
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Q: Why don't more people enter the nationals?
A: There simply isn't enough people currently racing pre 78 VMX in Australia now for there to be a large dedicated group that will go the extra mile to race the National titles.
What we all have to do is get the overall participation rate up and then events like the Nationals will take care of themselves, I believe. :)
Spot on AJ :) :) :)
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I agree with AJ, also our Kawasaki rider #13 makes good sense, I feel that if women can have 6 to make up a national class then we need to adjust our 10 to be as one with the girls. I think that if this was the case then the Wagga nationals for example would have been very different. The Wagga club had the alterations very late to their program, They had to make the class alterations due to the poor attendance, I just don't know how to get more to enter but have an idea that as the ages of the guys get older we need to focus more on the age class especially the over 50 stuff to get the like minded older guys together.
tanner
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AJ
That's just about summarized the issues associated with this topic. Nice job
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I stand corrected about the age groups being offered at both recent Nats and sadly agree that although I firmly believe it's an important part of the Nats concept, it by itself isn't going to bring riders back. The Wagga Nats was a great meeting run with half of the potential riders. Where were those 70 plus riders? They definitely exist Ajay, and have all raced recently. The Nepean pre 75 meeting had entries around 100 and only a small percentage of those riders were seen at Wagga. There was recently a big meeting in S.A. yet there were no South Australians to my knowledge at Wagga. If we add the large number of keen Victorian Vintage Dirt Track racers from VDT hot spots like Mildura, Shepparton and Bendigo who didn't show and the large number of Quensland no shows, we have to ask why.
These punters are all out there enjoying their vintage racing but they are opting not to attend the Nats. The problem ahead is to find out why and convince those riders to return to the fold. Perhaps the good word of mouth stories from Coffs and Wagga will help bring them back, I dont know. I thought I knew the answer but I'm not too sure now. Everyone I speak to reckons he's going to Tassie for the VMX Nats and I hope they're right. The costs will definitely have a negative impact on mainland participation in that event but you can bet it'll be a great meeting. Let's hope that we can solve these problems sooner than later.
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Firko,
I think you're right, the older riders have been at least a little active (especially in NSW) in the last 24 months and maybe they are still out there to be "convinced" that racing the Nats is a good idea.
One thing about the age class debate that I didn't mention is that I think there could be a perception with some of the older riders that the character of the Nationals has changed (and possibly it has) with the advent of increasing numbers of younger riders who will be on the same track at the same time, even though they won't actually be scored in their class. This perception may be enough to discourage them entering in the first place.
The only way out of that situation as far as I can tell is to form race grids primarily based on age of bike and rider (e.g. 40-49 pre 75), and only split the races into capacity classes if the numbers justfy it. That way the older riders will have a realistic chance of forming a 40-49 race in their own right, but of course those that 125s may be at a disadvantage (especially in DT where power is much more important).
There is one important point where I would strongly disagree with #13 and 211, that is that minimum numbers to form a National Championship class should NOT be reduced. If it was to be done, there are two undesireable consequences that immediately come to mind:
1. What is to stop people using the 5 person criteria to create possibly double the number of classes during the day, making the race organisation even more difficult than before?
2. Decreasing the minimum number of entrants to form a class further devalues the title, "National Champion" and if taken to the extreme level, could mean that you have so many National Champions awarded on any given day as to make it complely meaningless. Not good.
Changing the class minimum numbers is a band-aid not a cure in my view.
Oh yeah, another thing that has probably worked against the pre 78 brigade in the last two years in NSW in particular (and therefore the Nats held in NSW this year) is that the pre 78 register was stillborn (again), which was a great pity. I understand that the pre 78 register is again being reformed (which is a good thing), but I feel that the pre 78 guys have been disappointed a few times now and may even have given up on the idea of racing at all. :(
Of course this doesn't explain the apparent lack of numbers from Qld, Vic, Tas and SA for Coffs and Wagga... ::)
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I explained the SA reason for at least 6 riders back in the original Wagga post, it was dated the weekend between the State VMX and the Final round of the State DT title, no one had the time or the inclanation to risk a bike. The timing of the event was shite for us, but that was covered in the other original post.
Accessabilty/Timing............. its long way to drive to race against 6 other blokes, its no excuse but no one could be bothered and thats the reason i coulndt be shagged. LIke you are all eluding too , if im going to drive all that way and take time off work you need to tempt me with a bit more than a few laps round a track.
In SA at our rounds we dont pay the ambulance squat, we all give a gold coin dontaion at the gate, are they privatised over there ? 3K seems a load of money for them to be onsite.
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Giday Freaky no the ambulances are Gov. run but it cost us $1000 per day to hire them and 2 people.Coffs was only going to be a 2 dayer but when we expected more riders than we got we had to make the decission early for the Supp regs and so couldnt change from the 3 days hire which you have to book way early.
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Here's my 2 cents worth..so far as I can see things should remain status quo..to add more titles for differing ages will detract from the meaning as stated. I admit I am probably not what 1 would call old but I can't see a problem with the format. Maybe once you are over 50 there could be supplimentry class that could be run as a non serious thing for those who don't want to ride hard. The big problem is getting numbers into the sport..as stated a lot of the older guys are giving it away due to many reasons but the feeling I get here is many are not willing to open the doors for the younger riders nor do they wish race against them ??? Why not?? I don't get it..vintage motocross needs new comers young or old! Ultimately the one riding the bike determines at what speed it should be ridden and if you are a slower rider you should try to remain off the race line and be aware of quicker riders coming through. Personally I reckon we need the younger riders no matter what the format. A titles event is just that and naturally people will take it seriously, how seriously is entirely up to the individual.
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Doc your right, you dont get it and probably never will.
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Been interesting reading this thread as it has spun it's yarn .Okay I live in Sunny Queensland and most of the Discuusion has been centered around running the events in the Southern States .... yep I agree on that .
Cost is a determining factor when you race interstate and somtimes clash with work commitments
this is why I will be limiting myself to two major racing events a year and the rest will be club events.
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I've just re-read this thread from start to finish, and in among a heap of positive and (hopefully) productive discussion, one thing keeps bubbling to the surface:
Many of the old blokes want age-based racing, but even when they're offered it, they still don't turn up.
So is the age-category thing just an excuse? It sounds better to take shots at "17 year old lunatics" than admit that you're nowhere near as competitive as you used to be?
[/mild irits]
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no worries colmoody..ignorance is bliss 8)
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a few recurrent themes have made themselves obvious in this and other topics .
1: VMX racers like the age groupings and its that which attracted many back into the sport. be a bit silly to knock that on the head.
2: Costs of Licencing and travel does get a bit much for the average joe. The cheese and kisses can raise an eyebrow at times to the seemingly large amount of funds that they believe could be spent else wheres.
3: The vast distances of the fine land to persue the events can also take its toll . Who can talk the boss into having a POETS day and down tools whenever an event is on ? not everyone i would wager.
Perhaps there is no answer to the quandry and choosing the better of two evils is the only way but I do know that beaurocratic bullshit and petty squabbles will see more riders say stuff it Most riders want to ride and enjoy the sport . Not racing for sheep stations guys so who cares if it seemingly lessens the importance of a national Title in the sub categories? There is still THE National Title race to take care of that.It still gets the guys and the bikes on the track and after all isnt that the main aim?
Make it easier to attend make guys want to attend and cut the bullshit.
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Firko, Ajay and oldschool are ALL right. The only way to fix the problem is for all of us to hassle, annoy and pester our old mates to turn up and the rest will look after itself. The cause of the whole situation is the lack of entries. At Wagga the other week we had an absolute blast with 70 odd riders, if we doubled that we would have had perfection.
Back to page six, this still seems the only logical answer. Once the numbers are up, age categories will exist and there will be no problem, if there is no clash of dates for VDT and VMX nats(which should be sorted now before all clubs in each state issue 2008 calender) there is no problem and limits the excuses of not being able to attend, a couple of weeks either side of a club round allows riders/spectators/drinking mates to get organised for most important events on the calender. The drinking and benchracing and social riding is the starting point to coax mates and once they realise what they enjoyed the most, the rest is history. :)
If work family or costs of attending are a problem, so be it and individuals should not be thought of any less and shouldnt cop flak/crap off there mates, just encouragement to attend when they can, we dont know what goes on in a persons personal life so ill judgement should not be made. Giving someone there own space will allow them the opportunity to attend when the timings right.
Now in saying that, and only being in nsw scene last couple of years, i dont know many or any of the old blokes so I encourage everyone else i know/meet who has an old bike in the shed, probably got 5 - 6 mates joined or joining this year in nsw and still working on a few more and there in the forties age bracket and dont care who there riding against,they dont have bad attitudes and as long as they get around at there own pace and finish in one piece. now that they are getting into it more, shouldnt take to much coaxing to get few interested in the bigger events. Hunter club is introducing dirt track for vintage and mates are talking already about going and having a play there, Canberra has built DT and sure loks like NSW scene will be on the improve as these are all positive steps. Young guys arent a problem because they leave us for dead anyway which give plenty of track room to do our own thing. if we finish in front of a younger rider, thats just a bonus ;)
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This is a little off topic but it makes interesting reading and shows that we aren't the only vintage area with problems.
This is a well researched piece written by our mate Seige (the t shirt guy) in Seattle.
http://www.siegecraftnw.com/whitepass2.htm (http://www.siegecraftnw.com/whitepass2.htm)
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OK we have waxed lyrical about the 'hows and whys' of getting the old guys back into the sport [in one way or another] but we seem have forgotten about how to encourage and motivate the hard working clubs.
Most of us seem to agree that a smaller number of big events is better than a hodge podge of smaller less exciting events so here is a chance to put up.
Uncle Donnie has just announced in the Competition Forum that the Coff Classic Dirt Track will be held next year on 15/16 March so how about getting in early with your entries and show the club that the riders can get their act together and support the club. Think of Donnies hair line - get in early and let the poor guy relax a bit. There is nothing worse than promoting an event and being unsure of the turnout.
Get to it. Sounds like a great event, I enjoyed the Motocross Nationals so much I intend to check out the Dirt Track myself. Come on guys.
VMX42
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interesting article.
http://www.mccookracing.com/articles/rickDoughty_cleanSheet.htm
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Great article. Hope everyone takes the time to read it. He hits the nail on the head with his way of thinking. Commonsence i say.
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Yeah Rick has it pretty close to what old dirtbike racing is about. Its a good read. I dont think it would work here in NZ(population isnt big enough) but maybe in Aust, the bare bones of the structure is a great place to start. Once again it looks like red tape has wrapped itself around the wheels of motion, and hindered the progress of a sport. Whether I agree with him or disagree with him on what determines a vintage or not is immaterial, that isnt the question in this thread. But moreso the whole concept of how vintage can keep its members and also move with the times. The idea of self scrutinising is great(if you cheat, who are you cheating but yourself,so why do it?). Wouldnt you be condemning yourself to be hated by your peers? If there are 100 bikes/riders gear to scrutinise and say at even 2mins a bike/rider that is 3.5 hours of lost riding time. Lets face it, why do we go to meeting, to ride, so if the rules are simple and clear there shouldnt be a problem. The idea of 'less is more' for championship events is so true, not everyone has the time or money to travel to every event that is going, but to make only a small number of events throughtout the year big nationals/championships people will want to go to them. Thats why your 'classic dirt' is such a big event, (there is only one), and its not because of the non competitive riding as maybe suggested. Yes, maybe a small part of it can be attributed to that but on a whole its the thought that you might miss out on something big that gets everyone there(and of course its a great event) hence you get the snowball effect of everyone turning up and having a fanastic time(why do you think I want to come over) whether I have a bike to ride or not. Major meetings need to be spread throughout the year so competitors have the chance to sweet talk the wife, save the money or get the time off work to get to them. But hey all this has been said in this thread already, so its now up to you guys as 'old dirtbike riders' to do something about it. As Rick says, a clean sheet of paper could be what you are looking for. Yes you may have a good/bad system in place now, but is your system helping you or not? Vintage Motocross as the saying goes is, "like minded blokes and there bikes", will the way I read this whole thread is, that there are alot of like minded blokes but with there hands tied by an authority that isnt working for them. Everytime your governing body makes a rule change it takes a lawyer to read it, an accountant to finance it and a 'greenie' to agree to it. You guys need to have the control of your own sport and tell your governing body that this is how Vintage Motocross will be run rather than some profiteering office worker deciding your fate. Whether VMX in Aust. becomes an off-shoot of MA or its own governing body is I believe what alot of you guys are saying without actually saying it. Shoot me down if you want, but before you do, please re-read this whole thread and ask yourself what the problems and answers are. Is it the bikes? Is it the riders? Is it the tracks? Is it the commitees? Is it the clubs? Is it MA? or Is it the system that you have to abide by? Answer each one on its own merit and see what you come up with? Forget all the bullshit and excuses why people have stopped riding/coming to events and start looking at the reasons that they would want to ride/come to events. Is this the crossroads that Aust.VMX is standing at, or is it a detour back to the same problems and squabbles that seem to divide what should be the best sport in the world?
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i agree with the principle of VMX being self governing except for the public liability issue over here in Oz, i have never been a fan of MA (or the ACU it replaced) as think it is business orientated instead of for the riders and the sport in general, now that is fine to run it like a business for mainstream MX but not for our cottage industry. someone in this thread mentioned about the costs of permits for VMX being the same as Mainstream MX and the licence issue could be addressed as well ( do you think a one day licence should really cost $50 to race? when your entry fee to meeting costs $40- $45 ) these issues need to be sorted at MA level as i believe a state/club/local VMX meet ( i am not referring to any nationals here, separate issue as we all know) should be kept low cost and the money fed back into the organising club/register/committee and not go to MA (fork em), for profiteering off local small time meetings they can rip into the private promoters if they want but ease up on the clubs at low level, i realize this will need an MA restructure of somekind and the wheels are slow to move.
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Clearly I have offended Doc and for that I apologise.
Looking at it purley from an age prospective hands up all those say between 35 and 45 years whom have recently puchased the latest
and greatest 450 or 250 four stroke MXer and gone off racing motorcross, supercross or Dirt Track. Ok now hands up all those say between the ages of 45 and 55 years whom have done the same, ok what about 60 to 70 years. You getting my drift here.
I am new to this vmx/dt caper and clearly there are a lot more wiser folk than me whom have been involved a lot longer than myself
but from the circles I travel in the attractions of competing in vmx/classic dirt track meetings is catching up with and COMPETING with
like minded souls of similar vintage on similar vintage MXers from back whenever. (pre 75 preferably)
Having held the positions of treasurer/president/secrtary in a motorcyle club that is heavily involved in the promotion of Dirt Track
Racing in NSW I understand completly the enormous effort involved by the promoting club in putting any sort of race meeting on and
whilst no longer in either of the above capacity's I have enormous respect for those clubs and individuals involved. They are indeed worthy of our co operation and support.
Without wanting to sound like its all about me, me and me for a whole lot of reasons three big Dirt Track Meetings per year would be
all I could do. Did the Coffs Classic Dirt Track in March (fantastic) Aussie Vintage Dirt Track Titles in October (fantastic). Will add the Jack Hogg Classic to those two for next year and that'll do me. Cant wait. Now if you'll just excuse me while i go and put my plastic pants on.
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Looking at it purley from an age prospective hands up all those say between 35 and 45 years whom have recently puchased the latest
and greatest 450 or 250 four stroke MXer and gone off racing motorcross, supercross or Dirt Track. Ok now hands up all those say between the ages of 45 and 55 years whom have done the same, ok what about 60 to 70 years. You getting my drift here.
If you look at the over 35s grid at an ACTMCC club day, or an Amcross round, then I'd say that plenty of 35~50 year olds have gone and bought new bikes to race. I assume that most clubs are similar.
These were the guys that VMX picked up in the early days of VMX - now they're buying new bikes to race.
Similarly, I don't know of any 50+ guys to first get involved in VMX in the time I've been actively involved.
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All power to those guys Nathan. Those meetings you mention are they open meetings with full grids of A B and C graders.
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Amcross are opens for non-pros, but ACTMCC events are just club days. I wouldn't say that they have full grids, but many go close and definitely healthy fields of capacity classes (no grades that I know of).
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Nathan I have just re read your post. That they are lining up to compete in an age based class is exactly my point. And from a previous post of yours, I dont think anyone is having a go at the 17 year olds but do you know anyone that really gets any joy out of blowing someone off two or three times there age.
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Nathan is right in one respect, from what I can see at local club days and things like organised trailrides the older guys are queuing to buy new bikes. I sold my kids KLX on the weekend to a guy in his late 40s who used to race speedway, and he's wanting to buy a second hand 05/06 YZ250 and get into Amcross and some trailrides.
But the other point is valid too, many of us get into vintage because it's a different sort of scene and I think to most of us the racing is either equal to or secondary to the fun/social/reminiscing aspect. Unlike Amcross and clubdays tho, VMX also seems to appeal to a much broader cross section of people, and I guess the trick is in attracting people from such a spectrum - restorers, play riders, guys who've never raced before, club racers and serious racers. Tricky.
On the matter of age classes, here's a picture of the program for the 96 Nats at Barrabool, sent to me by Tim754. Gives you an idea of how it all used to hang together 12 years ago...
(http://www.ozvmx.com/images/forum/nats1.jpg)
(http://www.ozvmx.com/images/forum/nats2.jpg)
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Nathan I have just re read your post. That they are lining up to compete in an age based class is exactly my point. And from a previous post of yours, I dont think anyone is having a go at the 17 year olds but do you know anyone that really gets any joy out of blowing someone off two or three times there age.
A race is a race. I don't care if I'm "banging bars" with someone significantly younger (like Tom), a bit older (like Lozza), a heap older (like Dennis), or double my age (like Graeme). If they ride fair and we're racing, then its fun - and I don't care whether we're racing for 1st place or second last. Why would that attitude be any different for a 16 year old, a 45 year old or a 65 year old?
My first ever VMX race (and also my first ever race), I ended up circulating with a bloke who musta been literally twice my age. In a 'normal' situation, we'd probably be a bit limited in off-track conversation, but because we'd been racing, it was like we'd been mates for years. This has been repeated many times over in my short VMX 'career', and is one of the main things that cemented my passion for racing old bikes.
From what I've seen, modern MX "needs" an 'old bloke' class much, much more than VMX does. But seeing as the 'old blokes' seem to think that an age-specific class is important to them, then I wouldn't dream of objecting...
I never really thought that was any amnimosity toward the youngsters, but some of the comments made about the young guys could easily be mis-understood as being quite negative.
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The last time heaven was in canberra my dad my sister and i made the effort as my dad is 41 and his balls werent big enough to race as he hasnt ridden in a while ( This is a joint conversation from my dad Jimson aswell ;) ) so he let me use his DT1 to race as the witnesses will justify (Nathan,Noel,Dennis any 1 else that was there) would know i didn't make the first corner :-[ as i went down in a heap with the bike on top of me. Before the race i disscussed with my father about getting the holeshot he said not to bother and just have a good time as it was my first race my main thought was win win win but in the back of my head there was that voice saying what will these guys think if i stuff up ??? all i wanted out of the day was to gain some respect and enjoy my first race im only 16 and i hope to go to alot more meetings and ride and learn alot more skills from the more experienced riders wether their 30 or 70 as the saying goes we got old bikes in the ute and $20 in our pockets so we sought the other stuff out later right ;)
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Tom, beautifully put and I like your attitude!
I think we can all appreciate your apprehension for your first race and the thoughts going through your head.
Next year will be 28 years since I last threw a leg over a dirt bike and I'm wondering how I'll feel sitting on the grid for my re-entry to the sport?
Where have all the old boys gone?
I've read this entire thread and note the views are well over 2000; only Paris Hiltons video has had more hits!
There are some good points put forth and I've read all views with interest.
It's a real shame to read so many vintage riders are out there with their bikes but are disillusioned enough to stay away.
As I understand it, they've tried VMX but have had a gutful of petty rules, hissy fits and general aggravation?
Right or wrong, here's what I was told about VMX when I lobbed up to watch for the first time:
"It's mostly a bunch of older blokes; generally ex MX racers but also many who didn't race in their youth but now have the chance.
The bikes are all old school stuff; disc brakes and the modern stuff are excluded.
The bikes are separated into different classes based on age.
People race for the fun of it and it's nothing too serious.
It's just about getting out there and competing against like minded people - but it's not about sheep stations.
If you're in the first three you might want to go for it but other than that just enjoy having a blast around a track like the good old days", or words to that effect.
And that was pretty much it...
I've been a spectator at a few 'modern' MX's over the years but nothing I saw inspired me to race again.
Ten jumps followed by a hairpin corner, ten jumps followed by a hairpin corner, ten jumps followed by.........................
To further annoy me the bikes and matching apparel look like Pro Hart paintings (all respect to Pro; but these are DIRT BIKES!).
Of course I bring my boy along and spin stories of how "I used to do that".
So, VMX was a deadset joy to behold!
I recognised all the bikes and everyone was my age, give or take a decade.
Why had I not heard of this sooner?
So, now I'm on a mission to locate a vintage bike and I've been looking since June.
I can't remember the last time I was so keen on 'doing something'.
This 'new' sport has even inspired me to lose some weight before I get into it!
That has to be a good thing right?
I've done absolutely zero exercise in the last thirteen years and I'm really looking forward to '08 and the new season.
This is my experience - and maybe you blokes aren't as excitable as me.
But I don't want to get jaded and cynical and bogged down in something which should be good ball tearin' fun!
Early in this thread VMX42 mentions a petty protest about a CZ having the sprocket welded instead of bolted in place.
Are you serious or is that a hypothetical?
Because that sort of crap and variations of it will ensure the old boys won't return.
We hear the 'sheep stations' quote so many times; in fact I'm going to print it on my helmet because that should be the VMX mantra!
Young Tom isn't of 'vintage age' but I hope to race against fellas with his outlook.
Their family has the old bikes in the ute and the dollars in the pockets.
They sound to me like the sort of people I was expecting to meet in the VMX scene.
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You've got it in one Wombat. You have nailed what vintage racing is about in one fell swoop. Whoever it was that gave you the advise on what VMX was like was 100% right. The whole concept of what we were aiming for back in 1988 was to get old blokes back into the sport riding the bikes that they rode back in their glory days. That philosophy is as true today as it was then with a couple of extra points. Back then we didn't ever consider that young guys would ever want to ride old bikes so they were'nt really catered for. In retrospect, that was wrong. There is nothing better than seeing young blokes enjoying the toys of another era or seeing father and son race togrether. Tom and his Dad are a great example of what can happen within our sport.
Occasionally old school vintage enthusiasts (I was going to write racers but many of us dont race any more but are still enthusiastic!) like myself go off on political campaigns calling for this rule to go or that change to be made but that's just the over protective 'dad' in us not wanting to see our 'baby' harmed or tainted in any way. Like most parents we do mean well but sometimes we are slow to let go of our dreams of how we'd like to see our 'offspring' grow. In the end, you'd hope that some of the good advice sticks and that the 'kid' recognises it when we don't get it quite right and goes on to do what he thinks is right anyway.
Having said that, we need to care about the sports future by carefully introducing new categories when they are needed not when we personally want it . Look at the big picture and ask if introducing new divisions will help the sports current structure or will it harm an already existing area. I'd also like to see a push more for the fun side of the sport to come more to the fore. The Classic Dirt philosophy is too strong to brush it aside in favour of all race programs. Both facets need to operate hand in hand.
Another aspect that needs to be addressed is to put more emphasis on the bikes. What seperates us from all other forms of off road sport is the rich variety of bikes we get to play with. We need to continue to preserve the bikes of the past for future generations. That is especially relevent towards the less than competitive race bikes that are often overlooked as restoration recipients. If the more obscure or uncompetitive bikes aren't restored or preserved they will be lost forever. I have a couple of non competitive bikes in my collection that I find equally as interesting as my so called competitive race bikes. I'm currently building a 350 Hindall Ducati MXer that in a real racing situation wouldn't pull your undies down but as far as being an interesting bike, it's top of the hit parade. The bikes don't have to be expensive top shelf items. When was the last time you saw a restored Honda SL350 or a Kawaski Big Horn? Get my drift?
This thread has shown that many folks are genuinely keen on improving what we've got. In the grim reality of it all, we're probably not going to get most of the missing old blokes back to racing any more. That part of their life is over. What we can do however is to encourage as many retirees to come back for the fun and cameraderie of the 'Classic Dirt' side of the movement. If that aspect becomes as big a focus as racing we're sure to see a positive resurgence in numbers.
The 'bolts instead of rivets' CZ hub incident actually did happen Wombat. That, and a few other notable situations have come along over the years and are a product of the overly complex rulebook and overly pedantic interpitation of it. I'm the first to admit that at a National title level the rulebook must be adhered to as sensibly as possible. We need to have rulebook parity to prevent those less than honest racers from abusing the situastion at the expense of the honest among us. Thankfully those pedantic situations are becoming less and less as time goes by but as long as we have a rulebook and humans are interpeting it, we will always have these little hickups. It's up to us to be as sensible about protests as we are about making our bikes legal. This situation is only relevent in National title or big meeting situations. The 10 foot rule is all we need on club days.
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I humbly appoligies for my ignorance, i never realised there where that many bikes out there, and to be able to get that line in WA im floored.
iD have been lucky to have see more than 10 pre 75 bikes all year,
now i can see why your wondering where have they all gone, im asking that question myself after finding this ->
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1EXSf0Ga24&feature=related
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Great stuff WA Mill Farm.Don't matter if its two or twenty two years ago, it's all good.
Participant's do come out to play when its a fantastically organized and friendly event doesn't matter what state it's in.Just plain special times.
Just watched the nice line up of Suzuki's (Coffs) from the Mighty TS Man youtube video.Good gear 8)
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What a great video featuring the WA bikes. There is some tasty machinery in there. They have persevered with the "only pre 75" format and it obviously works.
We could all learn from them regarding introducing new classes willy nilly. Introducing new age cut off divisions while the current ones (evo & pre 85) are still in the growing stages is a giant mistake.
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OK - here is my take on the VMX scene as it currently stands.
Most guys do it for FUN, which, my friends, is a given.
I couldn't give a shit what age group there is or what capacity class there is so long as the racing is available. If we create additional divisions in the current range of actual classes the whole thing could well become unmanagable and see little support when commities are called for - who would want to run a race day with a twenty plus race event round x 3?
One of the reasons I usually sign off as I do (see below) is because, if most of us are honest, we are riding purely to entertain OURSELVES whether it is in the bush as I have done (until my re-emergence on the race track in 08 - lookout, lol) or hacking around on bikes we either remember with fondness from our youth, those we lusted after (eg MC490T et al) or ,as in many cases these days, bikes that were built and raced many years before we were born.
Most of us are familiar with racing so we are only too aware that when the gate drops a form of 'natural selection' takes place, for the most part by corner two! After a full lap the groups are well established and by the final lap most places are locked in. Now using this as an example a fifty year old fronts the line with his son (17) a few places down the gate and the board counts the five with the fall of the gate to follow...... Short of a miracle, and irrespective of the bike type or capacity, sonny Jim (funny that's his name, lol) hauls arse out of the box well ahead of most older guys whose reaction time is a little jaded. Likewise, the 36 year old next to me who still maintains awesome fitness and reaction, pulls away, showering me in roost. You see a pattern emerging here?
Lets just keep it simple and gradually fine tune race days with the emphasis on the FUN factor which will be the key to maintaining a high interest in this facet of MX. If we must have age divisions thrown into the cauldron of confusion regarding this thread why not simply work it out at the end of the day?
See you at the back of the pack ;)
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You got it perfectly Dave. 100% right.
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to just quickly pick up on some of the last few comments (coz I aint going back over all this thread!!!). The Fun factor is definitely it. I race here in WA - we run grades A, B, C and if enough D and then over 55's. It doesn't matter what the guy next to me lines up on we bash bars all race long (use the term long loosely here!) and have a ball. My young fella has started C grade will soon race against me in B grade and once he flogs me will probably move onto A Grade - so what - while our "skills" are level enjoy it whether it be A, B or C - and then spend all afternoon bullshitting about how fast you were!
Couldn't ask for better fun on bikes I raced as a kid with new friends I would never have met otherwise!
Thats why I keep coming back - I'm hooked
Thanks VMX
Rossco
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On the Jack Hogg event at Moruya in early Feb.It started life as the Coastal Classic back in the 80's from memory. The father -in-law started it in dedication to the the memory of old Jack.It was aimed at classic bikes and sliders and sidecars made a turn out at times also.The thing that has been missing the last few years-besides the old Speedcars-has been poor numbers in the static bike display.It would be good to bring another along just to show-this display happens beside the canteen area and was a big hit for riders and spectators alike.I will find out if the display is still catered for-and show some of the old wares off.
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Where have all the old boys gone:
Greenstripe
colj500
Noel
and
anyone heard from Wombat since the Nationals 09 Qld ???
cheers A
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Wombat flew the coup and has moved on with twin brother Ji Gantor.
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Wombat flew the coup and has moved on with twin brother Ji Gantor.
Wombat and JI Gantor are nice japs that are polite to everyone . Its not a must to be on this forum and receive insults ;)
I know the both of them old mate
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Tom,jimson and maicopunk ??? ???
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Hi Al, I am here, and always will be, blokes and their bikes Rule, and it will never die, because rust never sleeps.
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Alison, Jimson (Garry) has been busy building heavy duty trailers and posting some local wildlife pics on FB recently. He posted a pic of largish Joe Blake in his yard only today :o unless he's been bitten I assume he's still okay ;)
So far as I know he still has his bikes including his super sweet little Indian ;)
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Alison, Jimson (Garry) has been busy building heavy duty trailers and posting some local wildlife pics on FB recently. He posted a pic of largish Joe Blake in his yard only today :o unless he's been bitten I assume he's still okay ;)
So far as I know he still has his bikes including his super sweet little Indian ;)
Found thanks. ........ Happy Birthday Jimson/ Garry 8)
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Eight of the old boys (Superseniors) are entered for the CMX Nationals
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That's a great result, Super. Did Vern get on board? I spoke to him during the week and his Vikings Curse is giving him curry.
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Vern will be there but he wont be able to ride (Vikings Curse as you say). Anyway at 68 he's only a boy. Be good to see him there though.
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Antone heard from JC or subman lately ?
cheers A
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JC has been in contact via Email in the last few weeks about the Blue Alron
Think he is in the middle of moving house ???
Cheers