Where have all the old boys gone

[Freakshow]

hey while i think of it. one of the points i ment to make, and i know im harping on the Kids thing, but the 50cc demo class has been one of the  reasons we have had to "accomodate" the old fellas, many of the kids riding in the flat track demo series ,grand parents and associates are the OLD boys, the kids have invited 'pops and nan' to come out and help em, and mum and dad wanted to show off there little ones, there never going to refuse the little tackers and many seem to forget why they left, but remeber why they came.

I think some times you need to remember  you cant lead a horse to water, but it sure helps when the rest of its herd are there too.  Target there kids ! 

[Freakshow]

here was our List of our clubs events for this year ( just done), now in saying that this appeared put in the local paper ? Get this part...... they asked to run it.  I'm convienced it is in no part to the 50cc demo, and see the guys painting this ambo hut...... they have family and freinds riding in that 50cc Demo class, proves my other point in that its bringing them all home.  And the council has now handed over another 5 year lease extentions to Both parcels of land, the local comunity is getting very perocial over the Riding, and you guessed it some of the 'OL timers 'spend a little time with there ol freinds on the council, bringing those old families back to your club pays off in so many ways, many you cant see.  3 years ago the council wanted the track closed, now its given us 2 tracks and bent all the EPA/planning rules to get us up and running even though our race days are always on a Sunday ( Day road is less than 1.5 km from the main street and slap bang in the local neighbourhood, see how the right community pressure and involement can change absolutely everything.   

Now Look at this years List of events, not too few - not to many.  Now look at how many are Competion Rounds...... we held 3 of the 5 State rounds and turned more numbers on the day than the 2 other hosting clubs  combined... why ?    because it was a bloody well run event with strong community support from the old and new.    Now Look at all the other riding days .   Parawa is an open senior/ junior MX track with 20 min sessions per group, and the Day road - family ride days ( is flat track , well more a double kidney shape) they are just that a lot of fun again split into senior / teens/ juniors on 20 min session rotations all day.  These sessions are made up when we find out the days riders, if a stack of pre 77 stuff turns up thats a session etc.

It has been a really balanced year of competition and normal Riding.  I rode every  date and 1-2 other interclubs, i couldnt have handled 1 more ride and by the last event in the program on the weekend, i just knew i had had enough.  It was JUSt the right amount, and also worth noting more the feedback from all the flaggies, officals and club volunteers they too said it was enough, and that really is a very important point, an event is nothing unless you can get it all together by having ALL the volunteers happy to come and help.  You burn them out, you will struggle into a spiral.

Now for the dead keen - throw in say 1 Dt and 1 MX Nationals (you may need to miss a local meet) but over all you still get the same rides in.  Just enough and individuals can choose how much and @ what level they want to ride at.

Now Read the wording on the open days again..... closely  .... Ride days............... Family fun and ride days.

Same Head differant Hat.  But the relaxed nature of that wording has embraced and drawn in so much so much support from the locals, the old riders, and mums that have finally let there kids come and ride in a safe place with there freinds and family has turned the club upside down, and i believe the sport for us. Mention the word race and my kid wont ride full stop she flattly refused, but i cant stop here on the ride day, we have to kick them off before it goes dark.

No longer down here are riders dirty trouble makers, they are now seen here as you, me ,your mum and the lady in the local deli. Infact it has become so acceptable the DASH for cash  (fasted lap each group) was sponsered in this Final DT roud by the local deli ....... WTF........ We have gotten credibility.   NOTE : We only had Two(2) bike related sponsers in the whole program, and when you come out and see over 12 girls on the track, and Grampa working on the grand kids Pee wee because this is a 'peice of piss' compared to that shitter BSa he used to ride.  You will understand, why getting the OLDies and the KIDs in via non competiton events has saved our club and made it a powerhouse in the community all in about 3 years.

Change the word Race and replace it with anything yoou like and youll be very surprised where it will take you and who you find turning up on your door 



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[YSS]

(If the retirees want to sulk at home let them, if they want to be a part of it well by all means but FFS leave the baggage at home.
CD4 type events aren't the answer, that's one heavily promoted and hyped event per year, if there was 8 CD's per annum how many would turn up??
Never had any drama's with HEAVEN committee or members, so maybe I'm on another island  or NSW version of DJ??? ) quote Lozza

Lozza , I think this statement is not qiet correct . If there was no CD , than we would not be where we are today.
I always look forward to this or any other unique event. I have done my riding in the past , so if there is not a social  or historical part involved in the event  ,my restored maschinery and my tortured body say no.
But each to their own, like I said before with the sidecars : if its just for the sake of burning fuel , why not buy a modern bike ? I believe VMX should be more than just racing .
A) It should preserve an era
B) it should have a historical aspect
C) it should encourage social gathering
D) it should be educational for newcomers
E) classics are classics  and moderns are moderns ( do you bring a soccer ball to aussie rules game ?)
F ) It should also cater for the restorers that never race
Thats what CD has, and thats why it is what it is.
This my view only , perhaps I am wrong
Walter Preisig

[maicomc490t]

Ya know, I think we are all right!

This thread, providing it doesn't degrade into some personality bashing exercise, could be very useful to develop consensus on what the broader riding community want and hopefully if the organisers are reading this and are open to suggestions (and I am not in any position to say, or know, if they are) we can fine tune the sport for the current 'generation' of  VMX rider, racer, restorer or whatever.

Graemes' post elsewhere in the forum has also suggested changes to formats or indeed the creation of whole new ones and that is all good to me so long as there isn't too much to decide between - because I have to work so many weekends I don't don't mid if I have options but understand some would get rider burnout.

Bottom line is to keep an open mind and embrace and encourage any positives that come along - after all as has been mentioned already in this thread there is the modern option but I feel after all the bullshit of the last three or four years it's time to let things settle and TRY and get along and if there are issues you don't like get onto a committee and change things, but do it by stealth as table banging, back stabbing and other tactics rarely work and achieves even less.

The kids are also to be encouraged - I know my son is itching to race VMX once the orthopedic specialist clears him due to a re fracture of a collarbone (and plate $$$) and if they stay we will have something for years to come and it sets a good example if they see things running smoothly.

See you at the back of the pack !!!

Dave Mac

[vmx42]

Hi Guys,
Here's my 2 cents worth [and that is probably a sad reflection on its real value]…

Classic Dirt is a non competitive event and it attracts 3 to 4 times the number of on-track participants and far and away the largest number of spectators [and Garage Queens on show] compared to any other OZ based race meeting. No, we shouldn't dilute its value by running 'Son of Classic Dirt' but we need to learn from its success and see what can [and should] be applied to the current race meetings to enhance their appeal to the punters.

It seems that most of the racers who have taken their bat and ball and gone home have been frustrated by the imposition of rules designed to structure the sport. Every racer can tell you stories of mindless protests [I was beaten by a CZ and his sprocket was bolted on - not riveted], eligibility issues [arguments over which bike was produced in '74 or 75], etc, etc, etc. It seems that every new rule excludes somebody or some bike from being able to compete.

It wouldn't matter what bike most riders were on, it wouldn't make one jot of difference to their finishing position in any given race [riveted sprockets not withstanding]. A '74 or '75, a 76 or 78 the race results would be the same.

What we need is a framework that encourages participation - not a set of rules that divides and deminishes our pass-time. VMX is a multi-faceted endeavour, it encompasses retoration, riding, racing, collecting, bench racing [bull-shitting], history, shed time, social interaction and time away from your normal routine [and environment] – the racing seems almost inconsequential to all this. VMXers are made up of all these things in various amounts, no proportions are better than another. All participants are valuable and should be encouraged.

This is where Classic Dirt comes up trumps. It doesn't favour any facet of the VMX experience [except racing] and encourages people to come and enjoy the EVENT!!!

What do I think can be distilled from all of this?

It is clear that there are reduced numbers of active competitors at a most [not all] race meetings and yet Classic Dirt is growing. I think that means that there are less people who want to race competitively but still a good number who want to ride and show their bikes. The simple answer is to give them what they want - not what you think they should have.

VMX has evolved in the last 25 years, we should move with the times and market a product that encourages participation for as many people and bikes as possible. Bring the fun back!!!!

To illustrate my point. Remember at CD4, everybody had a great day on Saturday and when the rain came on Sunday, nobody complained. People just shrugged their shoulders. Everybody still had a smile on their faces in fact a lot of people enjoyed  the additional time to do more catching up and socialising. It was great to be a part of.

Keep up the good ideas and let's take VMX in a direction that allows the most participants to have the most fun.

VMX42

P.S. and roll on CD5!!!!

[suzuki43]

All I know is that there are a lot of good guys i.e M,M that have fallen off the NSW VMX radar,and I hope that they come back into the fold.Just block out the d**ckhead factor and get out on your bikes!VMX even in NSW is too much fun to pass up.


Good luck to all my old mates in NSW,I really hope that VMX starts to regain some of the momentum it had three + years ago (i.e remeber the great Rockley weekends).

Hey DJ, see you at Taupo mate,I will try and restrain using the duct tape!.You Ockers really should get over here for a race.Its O for awesome!

[Nathan S]

It seems that most of the racers who have taken their bat and ball and gone home have been frustrated by the imposition of rules designed to structure the sport. Every racer can tell you stories of mindless protests [I was beaten by a CZ and his sprocket was bolted on - not riveted], eligibility issues [arguments over which bike was produced in '74 or 75], etc, etc, etc. It seems that every new rule excludes somebody or some bike from being able to compete.

It wouldn't matter what bike most riders were on, it wouldn't make one jot of difference to their finishing position in any given race [riveted sprockets not withstanding]. A '74 or '75, a 76 or 78 the race results would be the same.

What we need is a framework that encourages participation - not a set of rules that divides and deminishes our pass-time.

In principle, I strongly agree.
It gets much more difficult when you try to make it work in reality: Remember that behind every protest, there's somebody who thinks it mattered (regardless of whether everyone else thought they were a twit).
So if you dismiss the protester, then you risk having them pack up their bat and ball and going (and staying) home.

Same net problem for the sport.

At the moment, there's a lot of angst within the local rally community over exactly this issue - we've got the culture where nobody ever protests anybody and some real shockers are being ignored. Then we tie ourselves in knots over where to draw the line - do we ping 'honest' competitors with cars that are outside the regs or not? If not, then where do we draw the line? Who draws the line? Etc...
In the rally world, the real solution is to write less shitty rules (their basic intent is great, but they're spectacularly poorly written).

In the VMX world, while the rules could do with a tidy up, they're not as fundamentally flawed either (IMHO).
There's value in the status quo, even if you know that the status quo is flawed.


As an aside, I was looking at a Ulysess Club magazine today. Of their first-ever 200 members, ~80 are still involved with the club as financial or life members.
I wonder how many of the first 200 Australian VMX participants are still 'stake holders' nowdays? With guys like Firko, Drakeford, Boag, Yamaboy, etc still actively involved in the sport, I suspect that the VMX retention rate isn't too far off the 40% that the Ulysses guys have managed (and remember that racing old dirt bikes is far harder on bodies than road riding is).

[DJRacing]

VMX42,
          YOU COULD BE AN HONOURARY KIWI WITH WHAT YOU HAVE SAID.


I have to say I think what you have said is fantastic. If I was ever to come over to race/ride vmx in Oz it would be "Classic Dirt", not because its the biggest event on your yearly calender, but because of the relaxed rules and the socializing. I believe that great VMX meetings aren't measured by the racing but by the atmosphere of the event. The more fun someone has, the more enjoyable the meeting, the more likely they will come back.
  How about a "bring a friend along day", if you are trusting enough for him/her to ride your bike . These sort of days are great family days and can incourage more people into the sport.
Do you guys over there have a competition/series that is run by each and all clubs and at the end of the year have an overall winner? Do you have inter-club challenges?
I think people should look at the positives of what you already have rather than complain about the negatives. Most people looking at the positives see the negatives in a different way and can usually come up with great ideas to tweak them into running smoothly. It's always hard to fight your way out of the red tape but it is easy to wrap yourself in it. The less you have of it, the simpler life becomes.
A win is a win, you are the guy who kept it on the longest and braked the latest, but if your bike isnt legal for that class, all I can say is "you must want it worse than me, 'or' if thats the way you need to win", but I would never protest. If I can't do it on the track, then I dont want it any other way.


Suzuki43 ; see ya at Taupo and where is the duct tape going

[vmx42]

Hi Guys,
Firstly Nathan, I am not under any illusion that making these kinds of changes will be universally applauded. And I agree that sometimes protests should be passionately pursued, but I don't know anybody that says they have enjoyed seeing it happen. A really dogged protest can change the vibe of the whole event and the ramifications seem to hang around a long time and leave a very negative feeling for everybody.

But what I was trying to say was that at most of the smaller meetings [if we go down the path of a more casual style of competition] it wouldn't matter what a rider had done to his bike - the results would be the same and therefore I would like to see everybody just chill out. Obviously if you front at the Nationals with an illegal bike then it should be ruled as non compliant and dealt with appropriately. This is one area the Poms deal with by having a silloette rule [if it looks right from 5 meters then it is OK].

Secondly DJ, thanks for the compliement. I would be proud to be an honourary Kiwi [my grandmother was from the land of the long white cloud]. Your idea for a 'bring a friend day' is spot on. We all know people who have an interest in what we do and that would be a great way to get them involved. I think we Aussies could learn alot from the Kiwis about how to attract and keep riders in the sport with an inclusive and fun attitude.

You summed it up much better than me with your comments about a win being a win, and holding the throttle on the longest… etc. I know that I go the same speed [lap time] on a 125 or a 500, I am the limiting factor not the bike [and this is true for 95% of VMXers].

I think the common denominator of all the mooted changes offered in this thread is that whilst there might be a few guys put out by these kind of potential changes they are actually being offered for the benefit of the vast majority. But, if as the observations indicate that the pendulum in VMX is swinging away from focussing on racing and to a more social style of event then we should embrace and enjoy it.

Just as a small aside. One thing I have noticed over the years is that the genuinely fast guys, riders who have raced successfully the national and international level never complain. They just get out and enjoy the ride as they realise that it is just a VMX event.

Keep up the great ideas guys, they make really interesting reading.
Catch you later
VMX42

[vmx42]

Firko,
Beautifully put.

27 races on a day is achievable and if the rules are loosely framed on suspension eras they will be easy to inforce. A 5 meter rule is totally in keeping with the spirit of a club day.

Perhaps the more active clubs could run a few less race meetings a year and add a couple of fun/social days. Or combine the 2 and have the fun/social in the morning and a  short race program in the afternoon. Put on a BBQ [free with entry], come coldies. Perhaps a 'bring a friend day' as DJ suggested, or a fun mini bike race [for oldies]. The bottom line is we won't really know until an enterprising club takes the plunge and has a go. But as I keep saying Classic Dirt has proven that if you host an EVENT not just a Race meeting the punters will come [for all the associated reasons listed in this thread]. The sport as a whole would be better off with fewer events/more enthusiastically supported than an extended racing season with diminishing numbers.

I think one thing that gets lost on clubs is that the vibe at a meeting is critically important. If you turn up and the place is buzzing with a great atmosphere and lots of people and bikes it makes you want to get involved and come back again, and again. But if you turn up to a race meeting with small numbers and no atmosphere, a meeting that is solely focussed on the racer, it doesn't engender the same kind of desire. That's what I mean by running fewer, but better events. It will take some time for the word to get out there but it would work as CD proves.

Keep 'em coming
VMX42

[Stewart Allen]

Post is interesting, but pardon my ignorance or stupidity, but whats a 10 foot or 5 metre rule, are we have a game of Rugby League ??

[firko]

THIS POST WAS SOMEHOW CUT IN HALF ON THE PREVIOUS PAGE. IT SHOULD HAVE APPEARED BEFORE VMX42s POST, SORRY ABOUT ANY CONFUSION...........To anwswer Oldstuffs question, the 10 foot or five metre rule is "if it looks good from 10 feet away, it's OK!"


VMX has evolved in the last 25 years, we should move with the times and market a product that encourages participation for as many people and bikes as possible. Bring the fun back!!!!  I couldn't agree more.


I've been thinking about this for a long time now and have come to the conclusion that we have three distinctly diferent facets of our movement that need to be nurtured.
The first and, up until now, the most obvious reason for our existence is racing. The nucleus of the racing scene is the club day, with HEAVEN, VIPER, Penrith or whoever running them. We need to maintain the club days existence by keeping them simple, fun and easily accessible to all who wish to race/ride on an old bike. Running the event using the "10 foot rule" as to eligibility is a good idea and takes away some pressure from the punter who just wants to ride. For club day purposes it may be an idea to split the events into easier to manage generational cut offs. Lump all of the old bikes into a "pre suspension revolution'' category which still would basically be pre 78 give or take. The next category would be the existing EVO which is loose enough in concept already to make it easy for most punters. The third catergory would be loosely pre 85 or pre 90 if thats what the punters want. Then each category is split into 125, 250 and 500 plus. This produces 9 races per round over three rounds which gives us 27 structured races. Any extra time could be taken up with novelty races such as all capacity races or all Honda (or whatever) races or free riding sessions for non racers. Most importantly though I think that there shouldn't be any trophies or prizes. This has the dual purpose of saving the club the expense of trophies and keeping the trophy hunters in their place. The money saved on trophies could go towards a free post race barbecue for competitors.

The next facet of VMX that needs to be protected and supported is the "Nationals". By Nationals I mean the Australian Classic Motocross Championship and Australian Classic Dirt Track Championship. These events are the Holy Grail of our sport and need to be supported by as many competitors as possible. They should remain as the pinnacle of achievement in VMX or VDT competition. Where I see change is the possibility of the events reverting back to the "Big Club Day" format from which they had evolved. This has the effect of reducing the promoting costs of the club by half to two thirds and negates the need for entrants to need an expensive full competition licence. Winners would still be regarded as Champions by their peers within the VMX movement, the only real thing missing being the MA medal.  As well as the Nationals being revamped we need to cultivate a couple of cult status meetings that become "must go" events, like Condoblin was in the nineties.

The third facet that needs to be developed even more is the Classic Dirt or Rally concept. Ray Ryan was totally right in his assumption that three quarters of VMX enthusiasts are non competitive collectors. The huge roll up at CD4 verifies that Rays vision has more potential than any other part of the VMX family. We would be unwise to try and create "son of CD events" as they would take some of the steam out of the main event. It would however be a great idea for clubs to promote show'n'shine and non competitive ride sessions at their club days, especially two day meets like the Crawford River Classic or Conondale. That way everybody gets to enjoy the event and gets a chance to show their pride and joy off to an understanding and appreciative audience.

Finally,whatever we do we shouldn't lose sight of the original pre '75 categories, no matter what new divisions are implemented in the future.
For our sport to prosper into the future we need to celebrate the past and even encourage new participation in the older categories.
That my friends, is my 2c worth...................

[eno]

On any Wednesday...Yeah baby! This old boy rode the kids DT100 vmx bike a mile down the road to catch a ride to work. You shoulda seen it - like some 1970's add...open face helmet, brief case bag on the tank.
Hey I find the call of the chair & beer many times stronger than that of the dirt & saddle at times. Now this old dog has dug into the bag of dusty tricks & refound the lost guitar hobby... 
Talking about old fellas, last year in NZ Kiwi vintage champs Taupo round, I found myself in the rare position of being in hot pursuit of a certain ex world champ Hugh Anderson, who also was riding a CZ400. That registers as one of the greatest highlights in my vmx experience, the guy was so cool to follow, he knew all too well that someone was in his slip stream. The last lap came around & like stereo we both nailed it hard, the guy wouldn't give an inch & beat me fair & square. The man was 72 years old, now any time I feel a bit fragile & past it I remember that day.
Sometimes I find it hard to load up & do yet another round, there's always something else that needs doing at home, or it seems a little too scary, oh no! not another mud round! but whatever happens & I make it back home to my chair & beer...then comes the immense satisfaction of having broken out of the comfort zone & done it!

[YSS]

Well done Firko , that sums it all up and makes sense.

[TM BILL]

VMX42,
          YOU COULD BE AN HONOURARY KIWI WITH WHAT YOU HAVE SAID.


I have to say I think what you have said is fantastic. If I was ever to come over to race/ride vmx in Oz it would be "Classic Dirt", not because its the biggest event on your yearly calender, but because of the relaxed rules and the socializing.

DJ The Classic Dirts are great events  But even they are way more regulated than any VMX meeting over here .
I think it has somthing to do with the fact that all events in the west island are run under Motorcycling Australia .
We are fortunate here that we take control of our own affairs and give Motorcycling NZ a wide berth