Where have all the old boys gone

[no.13]

Hi Ajay let me clarify that a bit.I agree with grid sizes being kept at maximum. But I am talking about age groups. If anyone thinks that a 74 year old can compete with a 30-35 year old on an equal footing is quiet frankly wrong as evidanced at Wagga.They to their credit had full grids but at presentation I dont think I saw anyone over mid 40s take a title.If you limited the age grouping to 5 to make a Championship class you could still group 2 age groups together and have a full grid with the riders at least knowing they had a shot at a title.At Coffs we have run Aus titles in the past and have run 96 races on the day so all things are possible.I talked to a couple of riders before the event who had entered but pulled out because all ages were grouped together, so I know this will occur more in the future if as riders we dont get the numbers back up.

[YSS]

Gee , that would mean a lot of trophies and lots of champions.Similar to minibikes.
After all this the Australian Champion ships , where the best man wins no matter what his age or gender is.

[firko]

Vintage racing is a different ball game to "regular" racing and the two shouldn't be compared. The key to the success of vintage racing during the first decade or so was the age group concept. The chance to race against riders of similar age was the "leveler" that defined vintage racing and was instrumental in bringing a lot of older racers out of retitrement. It created a level playing field of sorts that allowed the 60 year old racer to avoid racing the 16 year old kamikaze.

What many of you don't seem to understand is how the age groups and championships operated together at the Nats during the boom years. I'll try and explain.....
Originally there were three distinct age groups..Under 30, 30-39 (generically called over 30) and over 40. In later years as riders got older, an over 50 class was introduced. At the Nats racers in these particular age groups raced for the championship with the winners being declared (for instance) "The Over 30, 250 Australian Classic Motocross Champion" or whatever the case may be. These championships were regarded by all within the vintage movement as proper championships however,they are not and have never been regarded as official Championships by MA so no MA gongs were presented for those wins.

At the same race meeting they also ran the legitimate all in all age championship races which were regarded by MA as the only true championship and therefore MA medals (gongs) were presented to all place getters. Within the Vintage movement a win in an age championship was regarded just as highly as the official all in championship by most competitors. You were a champion amongst your peers and that's all that mattered. The age groups were only used for 125, 250 and 500 classes. Pre 60, Pre 65, Pre 70 and four stroke were all in age groups and the winners and placegetters in those classes  also recieved MA medals.

It really annoys me when I read criticism of the age group system from people who have never experienced it. I rarely hear any criticisms of the system from those who competed under it and in fact the demise of the age group system is often given as the reason that many old school racers dropped out of the sport. It was quite simply the most important drawcard in attracting older riders into the sport and you can match the beginning of the decline in participation with the abolition of age group racing. It is an integral part of Vintage racings DNA and it needs to be brought back as soon as possible.

[Rosco400]

Not that I've insulted and verbally maimed at will, let the slings and arrows begin.

A “shot across the bow” from Nathan perhaps?

Or a skerrick of smite from Merrick? (You know I must digress further here. Something is deeply wrong with a go fast - chain smoking accountant… love your work).

I will also have extra beer at Clarence to suck up to those I have offended. I hope you show up. It will be a better weekend with you than without you.

Will be there next week Rudy and looking forward to a beer/J.D, and a chat although have a lot of trouble with that thick pommy accent of yours , and a carton of winnies, wouldnt miss it for the world,

Also like the age thing Firko, would like to see it back so hopefully no event clashes, lots of ex riders showing up and age based riding in the important events, just all need to be corelated together and its all good

[AjayVMX]

What many of you don't seem to understand is how the age groups and championships operated together at the Nats during the boom years. I'll try and explain.....
Originally there were three distinct age groups..Under 30, 30-39 (generically called over 30) and over 40. In later years as riders got older, an over 50 class was introduced. At the Nats racers in these particular age groups raced for the championship with the winners being declared (for instance) "The Over 30, 250 Australian Classic Motocross Champion" or whatever the case may be. These championships were regarded by all within the vintage movement as proper championships however,they are not and have never been regarded as official Championships by MA so no MA gongs were presented for those wins.

At the same race meeting they also ran the legitimate all in all age championship races which were regarded by MA as the only true championship and therefore MA medals (gongs) were presented to all place getters. Within the Vintage movement a win in an age championship was regarded just as highly as the official all in championship by most competitors. You were a champion amongst your peers and that's all that mattered. The age groups were only used for 125, 250 and 500 classes. Pre 60, Pre 65, Pre 70 and four stroke were all in age groups and the winners and placegetters in those classes  also recieved MA medals.

It really annoys me when I read criticism of the age group system from people who have never experienced it. I rarely hear any criticisms of the system from those who competed under it and in fact the demise of the age group system is often given as the reason that many old school racers dropped out of the sport. It was quite simply the most important drawcard in attracting older riders into the sport and you can match the beginning of the decline in participation with the abolition of age group racing. It is an integral part of Vintage racings DNA and it needs to be brought back as soon as possible.

Firko,

I expressed an opinion concerning Don's suggestion that at the nationals that the number of people required to constitute a class be lowered from 10 to 5 and he also linked that initially (but in his clarification incorrectly) to grid sizes at the Nationals.  I indicated that classes could and should be combined to utilise track time more efficiently and allow people to have more races in any given day.  I also indicated, which you appear to have missed, that classes could still be scored separately with a single race - that of course can still include age classes of course.  But the reality is that with the overall lack of entries at the Nationals, it's inevitable that the younger riders will end up on the track at the same time as the older guys.  Frankly, I see this as a good thing.  If you're a serious racer (and you should be if you're racing the Nationals), you wouldn't mind the challenge and satisifaction of showing the younger competitors who can still cut the mustard...   I'm hoping that Don Newell gets a great deal of personal satisfaction in being as fast as he is, even though he is now one of our older competitiors.

Back to the chase though, there is no reason whatsoever why age classes can't be the determining factor in setting up racing classes.  There just happens to be nowhere near enough people in each age class to justify their existance, in addition to the multitude of bike ages and capacity classes.  So probably a decision should be made which is more important in determining a class - bike age/capacity or age of rider...  one thing's for sure, you can't logistically do both with the numbers of riders showing up at present.

But again, I still don't see the racing as being the be-all end-all for the Vintage Dirt bike scene as a whole, as I still don't think that a pure age class system would bring back most of the older guys that don't race anymore.  I lot of them either just don't want to race a motorcycle any more, having done it a hellava lot in the past and some can't race or even ride for physical reasons.  But they can be a part of the scene and we need to have events that encourage them to get involved again.

[magoo]

Firko, Ajay and oldschool are ALL right. The only way to fix the problem is for all of us to hassle, annoy and pester our old mates to turn up and the rest will look after itself. The cause of the whole situation is the lack of entries. At Wagga the other week we had an absolute blast with 70 odd riders, if we doubled that we would have had perfection.

[Nathan S]

...It created a level playing field of sorts that allowed the 60 year old racer to avoid racing the 16 year old kamikaze.

What many of you don't seem to understand is how the age groups and championships operated together at the Nats during the boom years. I'll try and explain.....
Originally there were three distinct age groups..Under 30, 30-39 (generically called over 30) and over 40. In later years as riders got older, an over 50 class was introduced. At the Nats racers in these particular age groups raced for the championship with the winners being declared (for instance) "The Over 30, 250 Australian Classic Motocross Champion" or whatever the case may be. These championships were regarded by all within the vintage movement as proper championships however,they are not and have never been regarded as official Championships by MA so no MA gongs were presented for those wins.

At the same race meeting they also ran the legitimate all in all age championship races which were regarded by MA as the only true championship and therefore MA medals (gongs) were presented to all place getters. Within the Vintage movement a win in an age championship was regarded just as highly as the official all in championship by most competitors. You were a champion amongst your peers and that's all that mattered. The age groups were only used for 125, 250 and 500 classes. Pre 60, Pre 65, Pre 70 and four stroke were all in age groups and the winners and placegetters in those classes  also recieved MA medals.

Were the races for the unofficial age groups seperate or 'all-in and scored seperately'?
I recall the former (not that I was racing then!).

From where we are now (with too few riders to fill grids in three or four age categories), which is the better option:
Should we run races that are age specific so nobody has to fear being carved up by a testosterone-fuelled 17 year old, but risk having two or three blokes riding around by themselves?
Or should we run all-in classes and award trophies to the best placed riders within their age groups, but risk having the older blokes shy away because they don't want to be on the track with the loony youngsters?

[DJRacing]

For shit sake, how crazy are your 16-20year old riders And why not just have 2 age group races if there is enough riders for that. 16-35 and 36 & over, and you can still split the classes after that via the lap scoring sheets.

Can I ask a question here on your rules?     Are you allowed to crash 'n burn other riders over there?
If your MX is like ours, were it is a 'non contact sport' then why arent these 'kamikaze, testosterone-fueled, looney youngsters' getting at least told to keep it under control or even banded for the day or losting all there points?

[090]

What about two gate drops? Works a treat at my club. Women go first, then pre '85. Over 30's go first, then over 40's. Every class is scored seperately. That would be as close to a magic bullet that you'd get. And that may only be a solution to the racers.

[Nathan S]

For shit sake, how crazy are your 16-20year old riders

They're not even a little bit crazy. Either they're good enough that they get the holeshot and clear off, or they're just like the rest of us and know that pain hurts...

If the older blokes want age categories so they've got a realisitic competitive goal, then I fully support it.
If they want to dress it up by talking about the young "lunatics", then I suggest they should be careful that they're not inadvertantly turning away the younger guys who want to become part of the old bike scene.

[firko]

Nathan the age group races were seperate from the all in championship classes. Funnily enough, they were more prestigious within the sport tham the official championship races. The fear of 16 year old crazies was a minor distraction, the main reason the age groupings were so popular was the riders wish to race with their peer groups.

At times the two age group system was used with under and over 35 being the seperations. It worked a treat with no major problems. I'd be more inclined to go with that seperation these days with the possible inclusion of an over 50 or maybe 55 class.

From my perspective,this discussion is purely relating to the use of age groups at the Nationals. I don't really care what individual clubs do on their days. I don't race and now I'm more interested in seeing more non competition activity within the club day structure. But the Nats is the Nats and it needs to maintain its traditions and position as the flagship of our sport. Age groups are what made it unique in the world of motocross and it worked. It worked so well that derirative of the system was used very successfully by the Thumpernats.

[Tankslapper]

The Victorian Classic Club run year/capacity classes in the mornings with 2 each of the previously mentioned age group races in the afternoon. Year/Capacity races are scored for, but the age groups do not contribute to points total. Racing against your mates is what it is all about. Is NSW the only state having problems ?

[no.13]

Giday Guys I am glad we are getting some feedback which will help me with my submission.Remember the first part of all of this was how do we get numbers back up. I know that the age group thing was something I have discussed with other riders and I know it is turning riders away I also know of another half a dozen riders who went to Wagga myself included that did so only to support Wagga and the Titles but were not so keen to compete in an all in age group.Also bear in mind that at Wagga they ran heats to get to a 12 grid final so maybe with a bit of thought we could have had an under and over 40 year old or 50 year old ? To give you another example myself and quite a few other riders were going to the Crawford Classic for a couple of years and loved it every time ---had a heap of fun but kept lining up with 3 quarters of the grid being under 40s and new you didnt have a rats chance of being in the points so were putting a heap of effort into an event that didnt mean anything to us. Now dont get me wrong I totally support all the younger riders getting into Vintage because without them we have no future and us older riders will have no sport at all.When we ran the Vintage MX Titles in Coffs we faced the same problem with having to have 10 riders to make it a championship. With M.A.s help we grouped everybody in ages as close as we could and we pleased most of the riders who at least appreciated our efforts. This is only a submission and M.A. may not even give it a consideration but if we dont try somethings we are going backwards.By the way Magoo your still a big lump and I hope to get revenge if you come to Coffs.Next question is what else do we have to do to get riders back, ask yourself what more do I want from a meeting to make me want to go???

[AjayVMX]

Hey Don,

I hear what you (and Firko) are saying about the age classes, but if they are being offered anyway (and I understood they were intended to be run at Wagga if the numbers justifed them) the old blokes should be entering in their droves right?  Clearly that did not happen in Wagga, nor at Coffs.

Maybe the age class thing (in theory attractive to the mass of older riders), isn't the real reason they aren't racing.  Talk is easy: when the older guys say that they don't want to race the younger guys, they may be really saying they just don't want to race at all....

I still think the bottom line is that there's a lot of older guys still interested in the vintage bikes that are not participating the in the scene now, for a range of reasons.  I also think that if the "right" circumstances presented themselves, that these guys may be interested to come out and play again.  All we have to do is create these circumstances.

Without patting myself, Ken and Jeff too much on the back, I think the re-emergence of Classic Dirt on an annual basis, will be a positive influence on rekindling the interest for some of the non-racers.  Hopefully this will flow on to fun, non-competitive events being held at the club level also.

I also think we need to bring back the fun not only in the social/non-competitive events, but also the competitive ones.  Less focus on pointscores, more focus on fun and "social racing".   Less racing for sheep stations...   More BBQs and Bench Racing.

[no.13]

Thanks AJVMX and maybe your right and if thats not the answer I will keep looking. Not overlooking what your saying about other types of events either and I think the Coffs Dirt Track in March is starting to grow in numbers for that very reason, we still race competively --we race in age groups--- we race in capacities---we have a show and shine---we have the best catered for saturday night meal---we have a great friendly club---I think in 08 we will be having a trials demo on saturday morning---and also if we can pull it of we will be racing under lights saturday night---you coming or do I need more??