OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: magoo on June 14, 2008, 07:16:50 pm
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I've been having a brief look through the MA MOMS and reckon there are a couple of things that need changing. We have Pre '65, '70, '75 and '78 all clearly defined but not quite the same with evo. The rules are basically drum brakes, air cooled, non linkage suspension. I reckon there should also be a starting date of 1978 model and later because if you follow those letters to the law any pre '78, '75 etc qualify as well.
Also, Pre '85 should have a clause stating it is only open to bikes that don't qualify for any of the earlier classes. I notice that the Pre'85 Nationals was won by an evo bike. The guy that won it would win on a pushbike he's that good, and according to the rules he wasn't riding up a class. To me, the rules should be clearly defined and riding up classes should not be allowed at State and National title meetings.
I'm on the N.S.W. Classic Dirt Sports Commission and am asking for constructive comment / debate on any matter so I can take it to the Board of Directors to make our little corner of the world better, so go for it.
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good on ya magoo,there are a few things we all whinge about but all it should take is for a few properley worded submissions from each state to get things rolling.
and this one for a start,just what does this rule refer to and why,
g.c.r. 12.8.8.5
A counter shaft sprocket which is more than 30 mm from the outside of the swingarm pivot must be covered.
If I read between the lines,it may have been introduced for open primary drives and protection from sidecar passengers fingers?
If not please someone enlighten me.
In our section(Classic MX and Dirt track )how could your foot get in there,and if its the fingers they are worried about,then theres a big sprocket out the back ???
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To my way of thinking , the first part of the Evolution class eligibility rules , which states that all bikes will be O.E.M , causes confusion . This can be taken by some to mean that hybrids are not allowed . The Evo class as I see it was designed to have minimal rules , being just : 1. Drum brakes , 2. Air cooled motor & 3. No linkage on the rear suspension . I may be a bit liberal in my thinking , but I think that the above rules should define the components that can be used as : 1. Any front end off any bike that originally came fitted with drum brakes , 2. Any air cooled motor & 3. Use any frame that was originally manufactured with twin shocks (with the only exception being non linkage monoshock Yamahas) .
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I agree with the O.E.M thing as well Husky, I meant to add that on before. That's another change I'd like to suggest.
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Should the EVO exclusion date be capped i.e to 1985, the way i read it a 1992 twin shock air cooled drum brake CZ fits the class. Is this keeping within the spirit?
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And let's remember that massive thread on the '93 Postie bike...again, in the spirit?
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good on ya magoo,there are a few things we all whinge about but all it should take is for a few properley worded submissions from each state to get things rolling.
and this one for a start,just what does this rule refer to and why,
g.c.r. 12.8.8.5
A counter shaft sprocket which is more than 30 mm from the outside of the swingarm pivot must be covered.
If I read between the lines,it may have been introduced for open primary drives and protection from sidecar passengers fingers?
If not please someone enlighten me.
In our section(Classic MX and Dirt track )how could your foot get in there,and if its the fingers they are worried about,then theres a big sprocket out the back ???
Well the way I see it,, is that those of us with enormous equipment might just get tangled up in those front sprockets.....
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Which is the whole idea of a log book.If you wish to build a hybrid from scratch the onus of proof lies with YOU.Note the word proof ie period photo's, magazine articles, race results and parts books, not "so and so used to race one". If it was available and raced in the period it should be eleigible to compete.Nonsense OEM rule take away a lot of variety JMO
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If your enormous equipment was that long ,then you would expect the girth to be more than 30mm & therefore not get stuck in the front sprocket ;D .
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Hey Magoo.. what do u think the pre 85 guidelines should be? From what year to 1984?
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There would be bugger all Pre 85's in 263 and over as a 81 490 maico, yz465,s 81 model husky's ,81 KTM495's etc, would be pulled from pre 85
All of them bikes qualify for EVO.. :-\
Do u think old mate on his RM400 79 or cr 250 rz would prefer to have all these bikes to beat in his EVO race?
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I have raised this issue before at various times and this is how I personally see it in the most simplest way that I can explain. Evolution (I believe) covers a time frame from around 1977 to 1982, or thereabouts. To lump all bikes into one class does not make a great deal of sense given the overall bike performance variations. In most parts of the world where I have researched this, the class is broken in pre/post 1981 to capture the performance variations.
In my mind I see that the definition of the classes for Evolution and Pre85 has not got to the point where the Pre78 and prior rules are at the moment. Please don’t see this as anything other than the evolution (pardon the pun) of the rule book. There is no doubt that sometime back the rules for Pre78 & prior where once like the Evolution and Pre85 are today. As a discussion point I put forward this matrix out for comment.
(http://www.wideopenflatout.com/Evolution/DATE%20CLASS.jpg)
So as I was once ostracised & condemned by some individuals who did not take the time to understand what they were actually reading, I will spell it out in simple terms once again.
The people at MA, their state affiliates and sub committees don’t decide at a meeting one night that they are going to change the rules because they feel like it. The rules are changed/modified after the riders submit changes, in writing, to the MA sub-committee. They are then considered and discussed at all levels as to wether the proposed changes will be accepted and included in the upcoming edition of the GCR MOM. So if you want change, put pen to paper and do something about it.
When it comes to the current 2008 GCR’s and the interpretation of them. I see it something like this;
Bikes will be OEM
There was a complete thread on this some time back and the 20 plus people that responded couldn’t agree on what was OEM so what chance is there of getting this understood by the MX community in general.
Modifications converting later equipment to comply will not be allowed.
Self explanatory and strait forward.
All components will be of the period the machine was manufactured.
a) No linkage suspension,
b) No Disc brakes,
c) Air cooled motors.
In the case of Pre85 there are a few anomalies, one being , as an example, the understanding that any bike manufactured from 1983 onwards (in general terms) can be fitted with a front disc brake regardless of the make & model as they were available in the period the bike was manufactured. Eg: The 1983 KX range was fitted with a disc brake. Some may argue that a properly set up twin leading shoe system would be better than the 1st versions of the disc, but nerveless, it can be fitted.
So whilst we have the same train of thought, where do the following components fall into the Spirt Of The ERA?
- Aftermarket Reed Blocks
- Aftermarket rear shocks with more adjustments than a play station console.
- Late model exhaust mufflers
- Hydraulic clutch kit conversions
- Performance valving options for forks that never had then in the 1st place
- Aftermarket digital ignitions
- Billet backing plates for drum brakes
- 2008 build aftermarket swing arms modelled on units that were available in the day
- Excel rims
- Heavy duty aftermarket Stainless Steel spokes
and the list goes on.
Please don’t bring out the old nugget, “If it can’t be seen then it isn’t an issue” as it just doesn’t cut it when you talk about the “Sprit Of The ERA” and a rule book.
So I pose this question.
If Ohlins, WP, Showa, etc, were to produce a set of 46mm conventional forks specifically for the Pre85 movement, under the following conditions,
- The forks were not based on any specific fork as made available to the OEM’s
- The forks were never fitted to any production bike.
- They are sold only as a aftermarket accessory.
Now before you answer the question, think about the availability of rear shocks and the various combinations that are available today, that were not available back in the day.
Would these forks be o/k to use?
The point Magoo raises is valid. There is no reason that a Pre78 model bike (using the GCR 18.7.6.1 refering to machines being acceptable where the model remains unaltered after this date) could be raced concurrently in Pre78, Evolution and Pre85 classes. The fact that Shaun rode an EVO bike in the Pre85 class at the Nationals and won both classes already proves this but it does highlight the issue, should bikes be able to compete upwards in the class classification. By the way, Shaun could ride a postie bike in that class and still win.
The other issue that I think needs attention is the inclusion of age classes for Evolution and Pre85 which is not permitted in the 08 GCR’s
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Oh Magoo you've done it again!
Very interesting reading, lets hope its all constructive idea's and doesn't end in a slagging match.
I believe when Bahnsy brought up the evo question a while ago it was to get some ideas to sort out the gcr's.
In my understanding we may be already be too late to change 2008 rule book, but lets look ahead at sort it out once and for all!
I think we should just ride the old bikes and have fun and at the end of the day have a beer and a laugh. It only goes to crap when people get too serious.
Macca
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I think we should just ride the old bikes and have fun and at the end of the day have a beer and a laugh. It only goes to crap when people get too serious.
Amen to that.
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............................. at the end of the day have a beer and a laugh. ..........Macca
This from a well known over excessive beer drinker, Hey MegaMan ;D
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Hey Magoo, As we dont have a GCR rule book, can you please define what constitutes a Pre 85 Bike, ie Build Dates ???
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My take on your question Bahnsy is basicaly yes to all. As aftermarket USDSimmons forks were around in the day, aftermaket conventional forks should pose any problems.If I opened up a magazine from the era would we look at adverts extoliing the virtues of some hot up part for your particular bike?The difference with an some period aftermarket part and todays repro aftermarket part is anyone can buy the repro.
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i think the rules need a bit af work
like magoo said ;D
firstly there should be no ride up in other classes
i still cant believe this happened ???
so technically i could ride my rm370
in pre78 open evo open and pre85 open
so why do i need a shed full of bikes ::)
i think if you want to ride a maico 490
in pre 85 thats ok but you must nominate for that class only
not evo as well i dont care who you are ;D
the pre 85 rules have just been added to gcrs
and they were kept basic oem was left out
and i think it should be out of evo as well
i think an age limit for bike on evo and pre 85 is a good idea 8)
the only other sticky point in early bikes is pre78
suspension travel at 9 inches when nearly all the euro bikes
were 9 and a half to ten inches standard
which technically means they have to reduce ther travel
this is a good starting point everyone should get on and suggest
some ideas ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
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Why can't we just leave the bike's as they were when they left the factory and be happy with that.Do all these mod's make us that much quicker.Don't we get any enjoyment out of seeing the bikes as they once were and the great memories they give us.Sure it probably makes the bikes easier and quicker to ride,but can't you just do that on a modern or in a later class.
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You could adjust the rule book everytime you go for a poo, just tear some pages out and wipe ya' ass with it!... :o ;D
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I agree with most of what you guys are saying. OEM to me is rediculous because to take it to the enth degree, assuming you beat a certain couple of Western Australians, if you have a bog stock standard YZ250H with a DG muffler and you beat them in the Nationals they will protest you and you're gone, your bike is not OEM. In the bin with OEM.
As for a late model CZ, so what, there is no performance advantage over bikes 20 years older so if someone turns up on one I'd welcome the interesting machine.
Pre '85 has a cut off date of 31st December, 1984 and the bike must be designated a 1984 model and have. A 1984 Husky qualifies for Evo because it is a twin shocker, air cooled drum brake jobbie.
I'm reasonably open to later parts being fitted to evo bikes but the problem is where do you draw the line. It's legal to put $3,000 Fox Forx on your bike but not legal to put $200 1983 forks on, I can see both sides to this argument. The only time this is a problem is at National events. In Queensland and N.S.W. no-one cares what forks you run but in Victoria it is a different story. I believe in the "Spirit of the Era" but who's the judge? I'm sure we've all got dffering opinions on that.
Good on you Bahnsy, what you posted is a great, well thought out post. More of that will be really helpful.
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As for there being bugger all bikes in Pre '85 open if you remove the evo bikes, you'd have Hondas from 1981 up, Kwakas from the same, Yammies from 1982 on etc, etc. There are heaps of eligible bikes, the open class world didn't stop at the 1981 Maico 490.
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2008 GCR Manual Of Motorsport
18.7.11 E volution Class- General
18.7.11.1 Evolution class shall be run as a national championship and can be independent of other classic Motocross classes.
18.7.12 Evolution Class- Eligibility
18.7.12.1 Bikes will be OEM.
18.7.12.2 Modifications converting later equipment to comply will not be allowed
18.7.12.3 All components will be of the period the machine was manufactured.
a) No linkage suspension,
b) No Disc brakes,
c) Air cooled motors.
18.7.13 Evolution Class- Classes
a) Solo 125cc,
b) Solo 250cc,
c) Solo 263cc and over.
18.7.13.1 No age-group classes will be run.
18.7.14 Pre 1985 class
18.7.14.1 Pre 85 class can be run as a National Championship, and can be independent of other classes
18.7.14.2 Pre 85 eligibility. Acceptable machines for pre 85 are machines built up to and including the 1984 models. The only exception to this GCR is where the model remains unaltered after this date. The onus of proof of eligibility shall rest wholly on the rider or entrant of this machine
18.7.14.3 Modifications using later equipment are not allowed.
18.7.14.4 All components will be of the period the machine was manufactured
18.7.14.5 Classes
(a) Solo 125cc
(b) Solo 250cc
(c) Solo 263cc and over
18.7.14.6 No age group classes will be run.
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Hey magoo.. the big bore world did end with the 81 490 maico.. well, for maico it did anyway! they were shit and fell off the radar after that i heard. :-\
Fun is the name of the game Macca, As long as we all have fun, see good racing, stay safe and have a laugh, Im satisfied!
The other bull shit about protesting about how Joe blogs is riding like Bubba stewart due to his new after market power band and Ohlins forks doesn't interest me personally. I have been flogged by green bikes that bubba would like to ride ;) , fat blokes, skinny blokes, hybrids and the like and couldn't give two hoots! good luck to them..too me its the rider not just the bike.
If not already, When there is something in the rulebook that states which "one" class the twin shock drum brake maico husky ktm yammy etc can ride in, yell out so we know which one too go in. That way everyone is happy and there's no questions.
I think Bahnsys onto something with the 77 to 82 evo thing..
I think this means we need to get a pre85 bike upto scratch for next year..
I have never see a rule book before, what does OEM stand for?
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MXManiac,
The terms OE & OEM are acronyms for,
OE - Original Equipment
OEM - Original Equipment Manafacturer
In simple terms, a bike that is designated OEM, means that the only parts permitted to be fitted can be the parts as made avalaible by the manafacturer as standard equipment. In the area of the motor trade that i work in there is a significant difference between OE and OEM. Some OEM's decide that from time to time thay will align themselves with a high end aftermarket supplier and offer a component to the retail consumer as part of their standard accessory range, eg; KTM using AKROPOVIC mufflers. Whilst the muffler may appear in the KTM brochure and catalogue and will be designated OE, it did not come from or was manafactured by the OEM.
There is an anomoly in all this where a part or component is fitted on the production line as standard equipment. Using the KTM model again, the Brembo and Magura components whilst not manafactured by the OEM (KTM in this case) would be considered OEM as they were production line fitted and designated as standard equipment.
Hope this makes sence, after all it is midnight and i'm 3 alcopops down already.
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I was hoping that Shaun Baker & family don't get put off by all this talk of rules . I , for one am eagerly waiting for a match up between the likes of Shaun , Glen Bell , Geoff Holmes & Andrew Bailey at next years nationals ( especially if it is at Conondale ). Really good riders going at it on big bore 2 stroke Evo or pre '85 machines is a great spectacle & I sorely miss it . So I hope Shaun & family can make the roadtrip . But to all those people that are saying just have a good time & a beer afterwards , I think that rules need to be in place first so there is no grey areas or arguements amongst the serious guys . I don't think that the rules need any major changes , just a bit of minor adjustment .
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It will never be a rule book or a forum discussion that will stop this family racing dirt bikes. If you know the Baker clan, you will now that it won't be an issue. The old boy has retired about 100 times but just keep's coming back and is still fast when he does, if he can stay on the Maico. :D
He has one of the love hate realtionships, he loves the Maico, however the Maico hates him :)
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Hell no, we will have a public stoning of the rule book... or death my Maico roost.. once its made clear and the rules are in place of what goes where, there will be no problems or questions.
I clearly understand OEM now Bahnsy, cheers for that.. I always wondered what the hell that meant. No wonder i couldn't understand any of the rules you posted from the book. ???
I have see Glen bell ride at the Aussie titles down here last year or the year before.. He would win the VMX nationals by a mile! We were told he was heading to tassie for the round just gone,I was bummed not seeing him there as he is a legend.
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I certainly am not having a go at Shaun at all, quite the contrary. The point I'm making is that a good rider will win on anything, I was only using Shaun as an example because he is just that good. Sorry if anyone mis-understood wher I was coming from.
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Come on.... it makes for good reading :D
YEE HA!!!!!!!!
Its obvious something needs to be set in concrete on the issue as its obviously a dent in the rule book armour..
I heard a rumour that Ross390 has brokin his foot, hope you get well soon mate!
Not good to see a fellow VMX soldier down and out.. especially after the effort we all put in!
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Here were my suggestions last time this came up:
The fixes are relatively easy:
1. List the parts that are considered to be major components (ie: the bits that define the bike as being of its era - frames, engine cases and forks vs lever assemblies, tyres and rims);
2. Re-format it so that the later classes are not just 'add-ons' to the original pre-75 classes. This can be done either by listing the common-to-all-era rules at the start and then have separate sub-sections for the individual eras' specific rules, or by incorporating them into the original format;
3. Make a blanket statement that either says "No modifications to major components are allowed unless permitted by these regs" or "Any modification is allowed unless otherwise prohibited by these regs". Ka-pow, you've killed all of the grey areas that create confusion/angst/protests/inadvertent cheats/deliberate cheats.
Alternatively, list each component and the mods/replacement available to it (but this is probably too laborious).
4. Clearly define what is an acceptable replica of a major component.
5. Make it clear whether the lists of acceptable bikes is 'some of the acceptable bikes', 'the ones you don't need to prove' or 'all of the acceptable bikes'. 18.9.0.3 (the equivalent list for sidecars) makes it clear (in that case its 'the ones you don't need to prove').
There's a lot of other small detail things too, but that's the meat of it.
I'm not trying to change the intent of any of the rules - in fact, the opposite is true. I simply want both the intent and boundaries to be clear to everyone with basic comprehension skills, without have to resort to finding and asking people who are 'in the know'.
I stand by all of the above, but have some further thoughts:
I've been reading Classic Dirt Bike, and I am increasingly dismayed by what the pommies do to their bikes, particularly their pre-65 trials bikes, which I feel have totally lost any spirit of their era. Hell, CDB #6 has a short artical on a pre-65 trials bike that 'won't be competitive as a pre-65 bike nowdays, but is representative of what bikes were like in the day'...
No, I'm not suggesting that we should limit bikes to 100% stockers, or even 100% "in the day", but that we have the opportunity to keep Australian VMX as a good representation of historic bikes that actually do a decent job of resembling what they looked like in the day.
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http://www.ma.org.au/Content/MA/NewsEvents/MAReports/MA_Reports_Page.htm
Then look at the top of the May section.
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http://www.ma.org.au/Content/MA/NewsEvents/MAReports/MA_Reports_Page.htm
Then look at the top of the May section.
So do I undersatand that "Fox Forx" are going cheap in OZ?? ;D
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Please remember that the rules are up for comment at this stage. Obviously the Fox / Simmons fork diameter has been overlooked in general, but not specifically.
eg:
18.7.12.2 Modifications converting later equipment to comply will not be allowed.
If Fox / Simmons fork diameter were not avalaible when the bike was produced, then accoring to the GCR's they would not be legal.
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I reckon the idea of the proposal is to stop people fitting later model components to their Evo bikes.
As I've said before, an 08 KTM with the water jackets hacked off and some drum brake wheels fitted up is an Evo-legal bike, even though its got nothing to do with vintage MX.
So I think the proposal is well intended.
This gets back to the Moto100 discussion: Simplistic rules fall down over time.
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I still don't see any problem with fitting any conventional drum brake forks to an Evo bike. It makes the bike that little bit better to ride without taking away the integrity of the era. Like I said, it's legal to fit $3,000 Fox Forx but not $200 OEM forks.
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This gets back to the Moto100 discussion: Simplistic rules fall down over time.
They only breakdown when someone decides to cheat. Once again more and more rules have to be made when I'm sure we all know what they meant in the first place??
Magoo, just fit the fox's and be done with it ;) ;D
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I still don't see any problem with fitting any conventional drum brake forks to an Evo bike.
I think that (if adopted) the proposal would still allow this?
And I agree, FWIW. There can't be all that many drum-brake forks that came from non-Evo bikes that are actually better than the best Evo-bike forks?
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It is alot of peoples hobby to spend the cash on customising there VMX bikes for the love of there machine.. to make them that bit different to the others and get personal satisfaction out of them.. not for the sole purpose of winning the world vmx title...
For both types of people who are not really competetive or full blow goin for there 10th sheep station.. would it mean that you couldn't compete if u had 'illegal' forks or shock or whatever the case may be in a national/state points scoring event?
Or would u not be eligable for points but can still compete in the event and run the risk of messing up a 'Legal' machined riders chance of points? I would wonder if old mate with his Fox forks or whatever took u out in the first corner and he was on an 'illegal' bike cause an up-roar between the vmx police?
From a different angle,I know i enjoy walking through the pits checkin out all the trick bits and seeing the different types of bikes setup etc also watching how they perform differently on the track, viewing from the sidelines.
If it was to change, i think It would be like walkin into a car park full of stock commodores.. :(
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MXMANIC,
I still stand by the old nuggets;
- Run what ya brung
- Build it and we'll find a class for you to run it
Personally i don't particulary care what you do with the bike as long as it is in the spirit of the era but unfortunitly there are individuals that dont see it like that. There are 2 groups of riders that can make it difficult. The first one is the individual that goes all out to flaunt the rules to gain an advantage and the second is the rider that doesn't finish a race at the pointy end, has all the excuses for not being there and away from the race track makes out that they are the current series champion.
So when they are unhappy about things in general they protest to their local series organiser or controlling body. All organistaions, not just VMX have had to deal with individuals like this and it is an on-going challenge to stay one step ahead of them.
To be able to deal with these people/situations we need a rule book that is not open to interpretation and is clear about what can and can't be done. In the case of EVO and Pre85 GCR's they are in their infancy and will get sorted in time, but only if people extract a digit and do something about it.
As in previous years i ask (sorry plead) that if you have suggestions that you write to the responsible commissioner expressing your views. Like wise, if you don't agree with the suggested changes that have been put forward, that you contact your groups committee and express your views.
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So far Bahnsy, this thread has been incredibly helpful. Nearly all postings have been constructive which shows a new found maturity among the punters. I am going to put an edited version to the MA Commission for a bit of tweaking so thanks guys, this has been great. Some really well thought out opinions from Bahnsy and Nathan which can only be good for the sport.
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Ha ha ha ha ha.. Bahnsy.. Are u rockin backward and forwards in the corner curled up in a little ball.. repeating ya self over and over suckin on ya 120th alchopop.. i was aiming to get the longest running post.. ;D
I know exactly what You were sayin! :D :D :D
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll133/mxmaniac05/ravenswoodviper06034.jpg)
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll133/mxmaniac05/ravenswoodviper06023.jpg)
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I just read all of this and just like a lot of other guys may have not read this or any of this subject ..
So Magoo be for you go to Ma and change any of the rule book .
You do need to get more input than this forum .
You need to bring it up at a vmx race meeting .
you cannot go and change somethink arfter hearing 5 or 6 people .
You know my number
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I sure do, it's 555
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So aside from the posting by DJRacing there has been little said about the gazetted, for discussion changes. My purpose of placing the fork diameter issue was to get some action/talk/movement/anything on the rules in general, but no concern from too many people at this stage.
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I had another read of the gazetted for discussion changes for evo class ( item no. CMX217) & while I agree with most of it , I do have some reservations about the bit prohibiting adjustment clickers on rear shocks unless they originally came out on the bike . As someone mentioned in an earlier thread , old school Ohlins have fully adjustable compression & rebound shim stacks . Its just that it takes about 2 hours to disassemble them , make changes & put them back together again , compared to adjusting clickers that take about 2 minutes . It just makes setting up your bike easier . I have not yet seen anyone reach down & adjust their clickers during a race . I do however think that the latest developments with high/low speed compression clickers on twin shocks is pushing the boundarys , as this would theoretically increase the quality of the suspension up to modern standards . But if you write the rules to only allow rear suspension clickers on bikes that originally came out with them , like Yamaha monoshocks , what is to stop them from having high/low compression clickers when everyone else can't have them .
Also why not make the maximum allowable fork tube size 44mm to include aftermarket forks such as Fox or Simons , so long as they were manufactured before 1985 & designed for use with drum brakes ?
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Re;The shock,, my take on the rule suggestion isnt to not allow a new Ohlins shock that is of the same type available in the period - clickers or not. The same arguement is not allowing remote resoviour shocks pre 75 because they simply were not available but gas shocks were and there is a big business in re-creating this type of shock for pre75 racing. Its the same thing.
The point of the rules is to encorage people, not make it hard for them. Its always going to be a compromise and in the end its the riders and their state representitives that have the say. As I have said before the Commission is not there to invent rules. Its roll is to take correctly presented recomendations from the riders (stakeholders of the sport) and put them into a format for discussion with the states and then (ultimatly) based on the responces include or not amendments in the rule book. If there is a better way that we could word the rule recomendation please let your state committee know and with forward it.
Hope this helps you guys
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I believe that the 44mm maximum diameter rule was an attempt to stop later model forks (usually not from an Evo bike, and often originally disc brake forks) being converted to use on Evo bikes.
I don't have a strong opinion on using later drum brake forks (from non-Evo bikes), but I don't think that converted disc brake forks are in the spirit of the rules.
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I don't have a problem with any conventional forks that came off a bike originally fitted with drum brakes , because I can't think of any that would be better than YZ465H forks anyway . I see that some of the bikes from the Dutch twinshock class were fitted with WP 50mm Extreme forks, like the ones on my '98 Husaberg ( & matched up to a Maico drum front wheel ). I think that this is totally wrong & should never be allowed in evo class rules . Maybe they used a Maico drum front brake because you would wash off speed quickly in the deep sand of Holland & not need a strong front brake .
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if there was a set of 44mm forks that came from a drum brake EVO legal bike or an available set of period (not modified from disk) forks then they are OK - I dont know any but if they exist they are OK. If you modify a set of disk forks from anything its not OK.
211
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After much deliberation I have decided to start a suspension company. Many thousand dollars later, and following extensive research i have decided that here is a market for a set of 50mm conventional forks that have been specificaly designed for a drum brake EVO bike, I then offer them for sale and they start to turn up on bikes at races around Australia.
Now many EVO competiors, some on this thread, will see red and say that this not in the spirit and protest the use of the forks, yet at the same time we are prepared to accept that a rear shock with all the technology and tuneability avalable today is o/k - WHY?
Lets not even go to the place in time where light switch widow maker engines that could never be "fixed" back in the day are tamed in todays environment with exhausts, carburetion, and ignition ssytems made avalable only because of the materials and technology of recent times.
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Still wont help me catch those young blokes
Andy Viper #70
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I know this doesn't help this discussion, but it's just an observation from my point of view. I am not a particularly serious competitor, I just don't have the win at all costs mind set. To me, vintage MX is about racing the bikes of old and enjoying the whole buzz of the scene. But regardless how unergonomic the bike is, or how weird it's engine is, it's the suspension that has the most influence on how much I enjoy it. Most of the tracks I race on are pretty rough. I am an old club day flat tracker and trail rider. Being knocked around and beat up on a track is not my idea of fun. So, decent forks and good quality shocks make all the difference. I can ride faster, smoother and more safely. It's not gonna make me so much faster that I am a race winner because that comes from skill, mindset and fitness. I can't buy that.
I do acknowledge though that all things being equal the guy with later model forks and the latest and greatest shocks will be quicker than the guy who hasn't got them, but to me I am not sure that's such a great issue. If we can put reasonable limits on things then we should be OK. Having lots of money to throw at an Evo bike doesn't necessarily mean that you are fast.
Surely a simple rule that prohibits diameter of forks and type of forks (ie max of 44mm or whatever was around back then), non cartridge right way up is enough? Same for shocks, why worry about how many clickers they have? At the end of the day, not that many guys will buy a set of $2000 fully adjustable best of breed shocks for his 490 Maico. And for the rest of us, a nice set of multi adjustable shocks makes the ride safer and more comfortable.
Do we really need to get get all worked up about it? Mind you, I haven't read this thread right through so I don't actually know what the changes being proposed are so I am probably talking through my arse, but it's my two cents worth... And as has been pointed out to me before, the guy who does have the I gotta win mindset does worry about these things.
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Surely there is not that many bikes that are the last Evo Legal models , Why not just list them and if it's not off those bikes or Aftermarket fitted to those bikes (Owner to supply proof) it's not legal and suspension has always been whoever had the most money , To me it should still look like 1981 Hotrod YZ or Whatever. Someone Quizzed me if my Bike was legal with 43mm forks YZ400E of course it is if there off a YZ250H.Just thought i'd stir the pot.
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;) Spot on Graeme! ;D I am with you on this one..
I think most people realise its a not just the bike thats puts u at the pointy end..
I personally enjoy the VMX scene for the fun and to have a good time talkin shit with the fella's etc
I coulnt give 2 hoots (apart from being Jealous) if a guy rocks up on a KX500 with massive factory ohlins forks/shock and smokes me! I admire his work, effort, $$$$ and the bike, glad to see he enjoys what his done.. Lucky him to be able to get hold of such thing. If it makes the bike better and safer to ride, great! less chance of an ambo!
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Now c,mon Rossco have you gone soft and fuzzy while in plaster as you are one of the more serious racers .
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Sounds great as long as that paddock has got berms and jumps just like Ravo
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After much deliberation I have decided to start a suspension company. Many thousand dollars later, and following extensive research i have decided that here is a market for a set of 50mm conventional forks that have been specificaly designed for a drum brake EVO bike, I then offer them for sale and they start to turn up on bikes at races around Australia.
Now many EVO competiors, some on this thread, will see red and say that this not in the spirit and protest the use of the forks, yet at the same time we are prepared to accept that a rear shock with all the technology and tuneability avalable today is o/k - WHY?
Lets not even go to the place in time where light switch widow maker engines that could never be "fixed" back in the day are tamed in todays environment with exhausts, carburetion, and ignition ssytems made avalable only because of the materials and technology of recent times.
Shocks & forks have always been tuneable, some easier than others. Larger fork diamaters will improve handling, I believe larger shock shafts mostly increases shock life.
"clickers" are a financial gain not a performance gain as all shocks can be pulled apart to reset valving but at greater expense compared to picking up a screwdriver.
If someone made a replica fox fork their wouldn't be a problem.
Forks I would consider a major part of the bike even though they are often made by other companies for the manufacturer.
The rules will never be foolproof but I wonder why your looking so hard for loopholes.
I have read on this forum that we have too many rules but you want another rule to state the bleeding obvious??
The object of the rules is to create a level playing field of sorts for the various era's, their will always be someone that isn't happy when a line has been drawn.
And the rules allow some modern technology in to make our lives easier, it's about reliving the good old days, not being stuck in a time warp. It's not meant to be a contest about who can find original parts.
If a good ignition & suspension makes your ride enjoyable then this is a good thing for the sport.
While I worry about the engineers that are trying to make something that never was, I also worry about the guy that gets his knickers in a twist about something I deem trivial like modern reed material.
The original rule makers rightly deemed that consumable parts could be replaced.
Ignitions - anything goes. If you can replace your burnt out CDI or dodgy points with something new & reliable so you don't have to push your bike 2 Km's to start it then this is a good thing. Allthough this rule was probably made before programabble ignitions were common I still don't see the problem so long as the bike looks normal from the outside. It may be a minor advantage but you will still have to ride your tits off if you want a trophy.
Exhausts - almost anything goes. Okay, I have vested interest here. Pipes wear out, & they need to be easily replacable in order to keep bums on seats at racetracks. People seem to be getting toey about fat pipes or different headers. I don't consider that these fat pipes are that much bigger than stock & if you go too big it will have a detrimental effect anyway. Pipes came with many diiferent specs from the many brands & models in the day so which spec are you going to enforce? It would be impossible to make a rule that defines what pipe specs you can use so why bother trying.
It may be a minor advantage but you will still have to ride your tits off if you want a trophy.
Reed valves - anything goes as long as the engine remains externally unchanged.
People are fitting modern style reeds, so what. Others are probably fitting cams with modern specs. Will they really be that much of an advantage, I don't believe so. And banning these will mean more protests & engine pulldowns at nationals. Results will be held up for weeks while we await spectro analysis of reed material or we await carbon dating of a cam shaft. Everyone has access to these things so you still have a level playing field.
It may be a minor advantage but you will still have to ride your tits off if you want a trophy.
OEM - strange wording for a rule, but I beleive the intent was to mean that all parts were to be from evo eligible bikes. I can't believe that it was intended that your bike was ineligible for having after market seat bolts.
Modern KTM's with drum bakes & fins aren't allowed as per 18.7.12.2 Modifications converting later equipment to comply are not allowed.
Rule changes.
I recomend we drop the "Bikes will be OEM" wording & replace it with...
All models must have been originally manufactured with all of the following
# Non linkage suspension.
# No disc brakes.
# Air cooled motors.
Can anyone better this proposal???
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plain and simple GMC, easy to understand for everyone!!! ;D ;D
LETS ALL JUST F$%KIN RIDE AND HAVE "FUN" ... THAT's WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT AT THE END OF THE DAY FOR MOST PEOPLE.
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I've deliberately kept out of this debate as I'm not a part of the Evolution Revolution and feel that those who ride the class should be those debating its future. Having said that I've just spent a lazy hour going over this thread trying to get my head around what it's all about. I enjoy and support the evo division and would love to see it reach its full potential. Anybody who thinks the class is going well needs to have a good look and see that some of the classes, the 125 class for example are far from full strength. I know I keep harping about the "old days" of vintage but the comparison can't be ignored. In the mid nineties, at the peak of the pre '75 eras reign we were fielding full grids in 125, 250, 500 in four age divisions! Then add full grids for 4 stroke, pre,70 and reasonable fields in pre 65 and you have a healthy scene.
When the Evo division can match those figures we'll be able to truthfully say that the division is in good health.
Rather than debate ad infinitum over rule revisions, I feel that the emphasis should be pointed towards getting more bums on seats and promoting the class to a wider audience. The rules are fine as they are, they just have to be explained in simpler and less ambiguous terms. GMCs post makes a lot of sense, especially his take on the OEM matter. I've never understood why people read all sorts of meaning into the OEM description. It was probably the wrong term to use and should perhaps have read as GMC wrote......
All models must have been originally manufactured with all of the following
# Non linkage suspension.
# No disc brakes.
# Air cooled motors.
The fork thing is equally as easy. If the forks come off a drum brake bike, they're legal. If they're off a disk bike, they're out. Everything else should be as GMC stated. Clickers on shocks? Who cares?
The whole attraction of the Evo class is it's openness. If racers are honest with themselves and their fellow competitors it'll all go smoothly. Like I have suggested for the dunger class, you'd be put off using ineligible components if your fellow racers were keeping an eye one each other. We are a pretty knowledgable lot and I doubt it if illegal forks or something from outside of the drum brake/air cooled era would last too long before it was spotted.
As I said earlier, Evo is a great class that needs nurturing. Before we start pushing for pre 85 and god forbid pre 90, we need to get Evo running right with easier to adhere to rules and more importantly, better attempts at recruiting more starters........I'll go away now and leave you all to it ;D
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Nother one who makes sense.. love it! ;D ;D
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GMC, you're absolutely spot on. The main point of concern I now have is that I agree with EVERYTHING Firko has just said. I think I need a drink.
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What about "cartridge valve emulators". I run '83 tls,43mm forks on 1980 Evo bike and it is a lot easier to ride. I don't run these cartridge valve emulators, which I hear are worth every cent. I am mostly thinking, what the hell,who really cares- BUT ,they were not available in the day and favour the cashed up types-though as GMC said it will probably not affect the placings in a race, but it does ,to some degree, affect those who cannot afford them, say. From a competition point of view, I think one of the biggest issues is age grouping- but here too, if we are struggling for numbers, and lap scorers for that matter, it could be difficult to implement. I think this is more important at the big turn-out meetings.
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Firko,
Unfortunitly Pre85 has found it's way into the GCR's and has an alliance to an Australian title, so saying lets sort out the EVO before we look at Pre85, is, unfortunitly, too late.
Graeme,
Your comment "At the end of the day, not that many guys will buy a set of $2000 fully adjustable best of breed shocks" is not that accurate. Whilst they are not $2000 a set of Ohlins and top line YSS (if my memory serves me well) are clsing up on $1600 and the amount of bikes that i see with these shocks is considerable. Like wise it frightens me the amount of 44mm Fox units (at 3K plus) that are finding there way onto bikes. Frigtening because of the cost & avalability, not the performance gain :)
I'm with Rosco on this one, however there are people that race and do so for sheep stations and for this reason the GCR's need to be tidied up, as Magoo stated at the very start of this duiscussion. What i have been trying to do is throw some barbs out to gauge reactions and sentiment to ensure that changes are put in place that allow us to move forward, not backward.
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[quote author=GMC link
Rule changes.
I recomend we drop the "Bikes will be OEM" wording & replace it with...
All models must have been originally manufactured with all of the following
# Non linkage suspension.
# No disc brakes.
# Air cooled motors.
Can anyone better this proposal???
[/quote]
most agree,so what is the next step,proper submission thru local club using correct paperwork?
We should do something about it now instead of whinging later on.
the elders ;) of this sport,please give us guidance
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MA rules as written in the rule book.
18.7.12 Evolution Class- Eligibility
18.7.12.1 Bikes will be OEM.
18.7.12.2 Modifications converting later equipment to comply will not be allowed.
18.7.12.3 All components will be of the period the machine was manufactured.
a) No linkage suspension,
b) No Disc brakes,
c) Air cooled motors.
18.7.13 Evolution Classes- Classes
a) Solo 125cc,
b) Solo 250cc,
c) Solo 263cc and over.
18.7.13.1 No age-group classes will be run.
I know I probably shouldnt be writing this but what the heck.
18.7.12 Pre 82 Evolution Class
18.7.12.1 Only bikes originally manufactured with twinshocks/cantilevered, drum brakes and air cooled
motors to be eligible.
18.7.12.2 Modification converting post period parts to comply will not be allowed.
18.7.12.3 After-market parts to be period specific.
18.7.13 Evolution Classes- Classes
a) Solo 125cc,
b) Solo 250cc,
c) Solo 263cc and over.
18.7.13.1 Age groups are;
a) Under 40 years of age on 1 January
b) 40 years of age or over on 1 January.
Ok, yes I know some people will be displeased with the "Pre 82" period, but as I see it, not having a period/year cut off is where allot of the problems seem to come from. The manufacturers of the bikes in question were happy to run their bikes against the linkaged/watercooled bikes of the day so why is it different now?
Amendments for certain bikes could be catered for if the need arise. (e.g. YZ125H)
This is only food for thought.
If I have over stepped the boundaries here, I apologize.
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Hi Gorby
rules for EVO 18.7.12.3 say that, what OEM (and we have been down this path before) says / means is that the bike had no linkage suspension when it left the factory if using the term to discuss suspension.
the arguements that include altering disk forks to drum etc are covered in 18.7.12.2 the exclude modification of later kit to suit -say, drum brakes.
Put together a letter outlining the reasons why there should be a modification to the rule and forward it off to MA (via your local Historic Committee in your State) and lets have a look at it, anything that improves of makes easier the understanding of the rules is a good thing.
211
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What about "cartridge valve emulators". I run '83 tls,43mm forks on 1980 Evo bike and it is a lot easier to ride. I don't run these cartridge valve emulators, which I hear are worth every cent. I am mostly thinking, what the hell,who really cares- BUT ,they were not available in the day and favour the cashed up types-though as GMC said it will probably not affect the placings in a race, but it does ,to some degree, affect those who cannot afford them, say. From a competition point of view, I think one of the biggest issues is age grouping- but here too, if we are struggling for numbers, and lap scorers for that matter, it could be difficult to implement. I think this is more important at the big turn-out meetings.
I have heard argument that the "cartridge valve emulators" are an old design but they weren't very common back then, dunno. I think that if something can make the suspension better without changing the look of the bike then this may help keep riders on the track which will be a good thing for the sport. Banning them however will lead to forks being pulled down at Natioanls & races being won off the track which I beleive would be a bad thing.
If everone has access to them then they can't be an advantage to anyone. Expensive? from what I have heard they are cheaper than a racing licence, cheaper than a GMC pipe even :o
Still if you can't afford them, just get some "cartridge" stickers for your forks. Ink cartridge stickers will do. Then start cycling 3 times a week. The guys you used to dice with will be impressed with your new found speed & then spend all their resources searching e-bay for ink cartridge kits for their forks ::)
No need to apoligise for intellegent input DJ. I like your wording except for the pre 82 bit. I don't see the problem with Evo being open ended, I think some people just like to see everything defined in absolute black & white. Huskys had twin shocks later than 82 & it's not like they dominate the class. The more eligible bikes for a class the better. As it is, the only "late model" bikes that fit evo that I can think off are the Postie bike & Yamaha RT100 & I don't see them destroying the class.
There may even be some other European models that fit evo later than 82???
Just curious too, it seems you New Zealanders are more laid back in your events, which is great, but I imagine you don't actually have a rule book written up??
All our problems seem to stem from double meanings for words / sentences, not the actual intent.
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Age groups is another thing that has me curious.
I wonder why we need a under 30 class??
I think this would be better as an all in - any age class
I can understand older guys not wanting to race young fit bastards all the time & so need their own class but I don't see why the younger guys need protecting from the older riders.
If we had an all in class then the older riders that were willing to mix it with the younger guys would get a second class to ride in if they wanted.
I know a guy that went to Coffs last year, spent 3 days driving to & fro & 3 days at the track for 3 x 3lap races. If their was an all in then he would have got 6 x 3lap races.
I gather that the rules don't allow this or is it an option??
Not sure what Tassie did.
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probably one of the better threads I have seen on this forum - one and all to be congratulated. I believe in the KISS principle to (Keep it simple stupid) and like the ideas just put forward not far before my comment GMC et all. I also get confused when people (and we all have them) spend thousands of dollars on all this gear to still run C and B grade. I joined VMX for the fun - realise there are probably 4-5 guys at the front of each class who ride for sheep stations (Fat Boy and I certainly dont) and is also the reson why I questioned Walter at one time as to why you needed a shock that had 600 different adjustments ( :D :D). I hope we dont get to caught up in all this technical stuff - I can guarantee if I spent the 3K on a set of FoX Forx and $1600 on a set of rear something or rathers I still wouldn't have won at the Nats - and really doesn't that apply to most of us?
;D
Rossco
PS I like age group racing to - bugger those young fellas!!!!
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probably one of the better threads I have seen on this forum - one and all to be congratulated. I believe in the KISS principle to (Keep it simple stupid) and like the ideas just put forward not far before my comment GMC et all. I also get confused when people (and we all have them) spend thousands of dollars on all this gear to still run C and B grade. I joined VMX for the fun - realise there are probably 4-5 guys at the front of each class who ride for sheep stations (Fat Boy and I certainly dont) and is also the reson why I questioned Walter at one time as to why you needed a shock that had 600 different adjustments ( :D :D). I hope we dont get to caught up in all this technical stuff - I can guarantee if I spent the 3K on a set of FoX Forx and $1600 on a set of rear something or rathers I still wouldn't have won at the Nats - and really doesn't that apply to most of us?
;D
Rossco
Exactly... 8)
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well thats an hour of my life I'm never going to get back! >:( >:( >:(
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Currently the age group issue for EVO & Pre85 has been rejected by the Classic MX Commission for 2008 & 2009. Of interest is the commissions comments in the C.M.C Minutes of May 2008;
Age classes have always been an important part of the Australian Championships for CMX and CDT.
Now this applies to Pre75, however, the commission has ruled that in relation to EVO and Pre85;
In regard to age group classes the Commission is of the opinion that they do not have a place at National or Australian Championships, but may be run at local or State meetings.
In essence, age group racing is restricted to pre 75 classes.
An excerpt of these minutes are listed below for your perusal.
CMX218
Issue
Age Group Racing
Recommended / Proposed Action
Rule 13.2.8 (Categories for Senior Australian Championships) Classic MX & DT does not currently list the age classes for pre 75 competition.
Decision
The Commission recommends that age groups be included in the Australian Championship table for pre 75 CMX & CDT. These are:
(a) Under 30
(b) 30 – 39
(c) 40 – 49
(d) 50- 59
(e) 60 plus
The Commission recommends that rule 18.2.3.2 be amended.
This rule currently reads: “Age grouping applies to competition up to and including Pre-75 class”.
Amended rule to read: “Age grouping applies to competition pre 1975 only”.
Rationale / Consultation
Age classes have always been an important part of the Australian Championships for CMX and CDT, and these need to be included within the appropriate section of the rule book to formalise age groups at these
Championships.
CMX217
Issue
Evo and pre 85 rules
Recommended / Proposed Action
Unfortunitly the proposed changes were not minuted, but it went something like.
35-39
40-45
45+
(Comments from Bahnsy)
Decision
In regard to age group classes the Commission is of the opinion that they do not have a place at National or Australian Championships, but may be run at local or State meetings. Currently age group racing is restricted to pre 75 classes.
Rationale / Consultation
The authors of this request will be asked to supply a comprehensive rationale before the Commission will make any
recommendations.
As applications to the C.M.C relating to GCR's have closed for 09, all riders/interested parties that have a vested interest in revising/changing the GCR's for 2010 need to prepare a well documented brief and have it submitted before the prescribed cut off date, usualy around March 09. Whilst it may sound a long way off, i think that we all understand how quick time goes by.
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What about "cartridge valve emulators". I run '83 tls,43mm forks on 1980 Evo bike and it is a lot easier to ride. I don't run these cartridge valve emulators, which I hear are worth every cent. I am mostly thinking, what the hell,who really cares- BUT ,they were not available in the day and favour the cashed up types-though as GMC said it will probably not affect the placings in a race, but it does ,to some degree, affect those who cannot afford them, say. From a competition point of view, I think one of the biggest issues is age grouping- but here too, if we are struggling for numbers, and lap scorers for that matter, it could be difficult to implement. I think this is more important at the big turn-out meetings.
I have heard argument that the "cartridge valve emulators" are an old design but they weren't very common back then, dunno. I think that if something can make the suspension better without changing the look of the bike then this may help keep riders on the track which will be a good thing for the sport. Banning them however will lead to forks being pulled down at Natioanls & races being won off the track which I beleive would be a bad thing.
If everone has access to them then they can't be an advantage to anyone. Expensive? from what I have heard they are cheaper than a racing licence, cheaper than a GMC pipe even :o
Still if you can't afford them, just get some "cartridge" stickers for your forks. Ink cartridge stickers will do. Then start cycling 3 times a week. The guys you used to dice with will be impressed with your new found speed & then spend all their resources searching e-bay for ink cartridge kits for their forks ::)
No need to apoligise for intellegent input DJ. I like your wording except for the pre 82 bit. I don't see the problem with Evo being open ended, I think some people just like to see everything defined in absolute black & white. Huskys had twin shocks later than 82 & it's not like they dominate the class. The more eligible bikes for a class the better. As it is, the only "late model" bikes that fit evo that I can think off are the Postie bike & Yamaha RT100 & I don't see them destroying the class.
There may even be some other European models that fit evo later than 82???
Just curious too, it seems you New Zealanders are more laid back in your events, which is great, but I imagine you don't actually have a rule book written up??
All our problems seem to stem from double meanings for words / sentences, not the actual intent.
Geoff i think it is fair to say that NZ events are a bit laid back , and there is no National rule book to adhere to .
There are really 3 seperate vintage organisations in NZ , 2 in the north island and one in the south.
The 3 outfits run different classes with the common theme being a pre 86 bike cut off,
and in one case a pre 81 cut off :)
I think what keeps it simple is that Vintage MX in NZ has NO affiliation to Motorcycling New Zealand AND LONG MAY IT REMAIN THAT WAY
Its not all beer and skittles though and somone will always try it on with later components , however with no formal rule book and no where to run off and appeal a decision ie MNZ the events are self policing and people generally tow the line.
Also any idividual or group of people can source a suitible piece of land and run an event at any given time and create there own rules and classes for the event.
Iv'e said it before and ill say it again ::) just because it works here does'nt mean it will work elsewhere.
As an outsider who gets to ride a few of your events, i find them very enjoyable . Particulally the Classic dirt events , the only real advantage i find in NZ is at competition events we seem to get a shit load more track time ie longer races and more of them :)
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Tm Bill "I think what keeps it simple is that Vintage MX in NZ has to affiliation to Motorcycling New Zealand " should that be "no" instead of "to"? cause it a little confusing as written. Tim754
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Do MNZ shunt other events in favour of their own?
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In a perfect world, Evo would be as stated, no linkage rear suspension, air cooled and drum brakes. I've been racing in the Evo class in three states over the last 10 years and have seen HUNDREDS (thousands) of bikes at meetings and have only seen one bike which I considers wrong, and it was a 1982 CR480RC Honda with 2 shocks welded on the back. WRONG.
Glenn Bell won the 2004 Nationals at Conondale on a KX250A5 with a flat slide carby and 43mm forks and to me that's fine, who gives a shit. If we can just come up with a set of rules that can retain the "Spirit of the Era" the world would be a fantastic place.
I've gotta go, the Popes coming over for tea and I'm cooking.
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In a perfect world, Evo would be as stated, no linkage rear suspension, air cooled and drum brakes. I've been racing in the Evo class in three states over the last 10 years and have seen HUNDREDS (thousands) of bikes at meetings and have only seen one bike which I considers wrong, and it was a 1982 CR480RC Honda with 2 shocks welded on the back. WRONG.
Glenn Bell won the 2004 Nationals at Conondale on a KX250A5 with a flat slide carby and 43mm forks and to me that's fine, who gives a shit. If we can just come up with a set of rules that can retain the "Spirit of the Era" the world would be a fantastic place.
I've gotta go, the Popes coming over for tea and I'm cooking.
Whats your take on the "Spirit of the Era" Magoo?
And which era of Evo you refer too, remembering that CZ made a bike in '91 that can race in this class?
Is it the late 70's? The early 80's?
What exactly are you wanting in the rules?
Let us know where you think the line should be drawn. Tell us some parts that you think are in the "Spirit of the Era" and what you think about a '78 RM400 up against a '83 CR500 (Husky)? What can be done to the RM to get it up to the standard of the CR? (brakes, suspension, handling, power)?
These are just questions, by no means am I trying to stir shit, but just trying to understand where you or any other forum member (for that matter) stand on the "Spirit of Era" and what "parts" are acceptable to put on an Evo bike?
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Tm Bill "I think what keeps it simple is that Vintage MX in NZ has to affiliation to Motorcycling New Zealand " should that be "no" instead of "to"? cause it a little confusing as written. Tim754
Thanks Tim amended now :-[
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Do MNZ shunt other events in favour of their own?
Yes wombat but Fortunatly MNZ is so disorganised it couldn't find its own arse with both hands and a map.
They are no use and thankfully no threat to VMX over here, MNZ made various moves to get VMX on board (have a lolly little boy ;) ) but at the end of the day its a give and take situation we give and they would take.
long may VMX in NZ remain the free spirit it is :) :)
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For perusal and comment. How would this sit with the general public? A bit of a less is more look at things.
Evolution Class- General
• Evolution class shall be run as a national championship and can be independent of other classic motocross classes.
Evolution Class- Eligibility
• Modifications converting later equipment to comply will not be allowed
• Machines eligible to compete in Pre78 (or earlier) are not eligible to compete in Evolution.
• All components will be of the period the machine was manufactured.
o No linkage suspension
o No Disc brakes
o Air cooled motors
Classes
• Solo 125cc
• Solo 250cc
• Solo 263cc and over
Age Group
• No age group classes will be run at National Championships
Pre 1985 Class - General
• Pre 85 class can be run as a National Championship, and can be independent of other classes
Pre 85 Eligibility
• Acceptable machines for pre 85 are machines built up to and including the 1984 models.
The only exception to this GCR is where the model remains unaltered after this date.
The onus of proof of eligibility shall rest wholly on the rider or entrant of this machine.
• The rear suspension must be of a linkage design.
• Modifications using later equipment are not allowed.
• All components will be of the period the machine was manufactured.
Classes
• Solo 125cc
• Solo 250cc
• Solo 263cc and over
Age Group
• No age group classes will be run at National Championships
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spot on ;D
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With pre 85,it has to be linkage rear.
Are there not 84 models with twin shocks that are still eligible? E.g a Husky.(Or even 82 or 83 model bikes)
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So where does that leave an '84 Husky CR250 watercooled bike with twin shock suspension and drum brakes? It is a pre '85 bike because of the water cooling.
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Is the 500 Husky twin shock in '84? Does this mean it cant be run in pre '85
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Yeah the '84 500 Husky is a twin shock. It can run in Evo cos it's still air cooled.
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For perusal and comment. How would this sit with the general public? A bit of a less is more look at things.
Evolution Class- General
• Evolution class shall be run as a national championship and can be independent of other classic motocross classes.
Evolution Class- Eligibility
• Modifications converting later equipment to comply will not be allowed
• Machines eligible to compete in Pre78 (or earlier) are not eligible to compete in Evolution.
• All components will be of the period the machine was manufactured.
o No linkage suspension
o No Disc brakes
o Air cooled motors
Classes
• Solo 125cc
• Solo 250cc
• Solo 263cc and over
Age Group
• No age group classes will be run at National Championships
Pre 1985 Class - General
• Pre 85 class can be run as a National Championship, and can be independent of other classes
Pre 85 Eligibility
• Acceptable machines for pre 85 are machines built up to and including the 1984 models.
The only exception to this GCR is where the model remains unaltered after this date.
The onus of proof of eligibility shall rest wholly on the rider or entrant of this machine.
• The rear suspension must be of a linkage design.
• Modifications using later equipment are not allowed.
• All components will be of the period the machine was manufactured.
Classes
• Solo 125cc
• Solo 250cc
• Solo 263cc and over
Age Group
• No age group classes will be run at National Championships
Don't agree with the Evo rules. Our 1976 EMC framed CZ currently qualifies for Evo in every way, but now you're saying I can't ride it because it's also eligible for an older class..
I say all power to anyone that can ride an older bike and be competitive in Evo, Pre 85, Pre 90 or Modern for that matter. What you lose in technology you have to make back in skill & testicle dimensions.
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You probably want the rule to say that you cannot enter the same bike as Evo and non Evo in the same meeting.
ACTMCC Dirt Track Classic class at their club days is officially Evo.
But I see no problem in entering a Pre 78 or Pre 75 bike if there are no seperate Pre 78 or Pre 75 classes being run at the meeting.
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My testicular dimmensions aren't what they used to be but 100% with 555 on this one. It would be ridiculas for a bike to be in-illegible for a class because it can run in an earlier class. Plain dumb! It would limit most riders with one bike to two, maybe three races for the day! Usually three lap races. Hardly worth all the trouble of entering, driving half way 'round the country and getting all your gear on for eight maybe 12 laps of a track. Plus it helps in making grid sizes larger and that's gotta be good for everyone. I like to see older bikes blowing away ones 10 yrs their junior. Puts paid to all that crap about someone having the advantage of 2mm larger forks or a modern ignition and an after-market fuel breather.... ::)
Spot on NR555 and Ross.. I feel the same way.. If them rules were in place, spending hard earned cash on whats already a tight budget on ya bike.. entry fee.. $$$$Fuel cost.. time.. repairs.. Maintanance.. race licence.. four hours return drive to the track on your 1 day a week off.. starts to make u think is it worth it for 3x3lap races..
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You probably want the rule to say that you cannot enter the same bike as Evo and non Evo in the same meeting.
As long as you can make the grid in time I don't see a problem.
If a person owns only one bike and it's eligible for both classes, where's the harm?
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your getting off track here, on most
club days it does not matter if you want to boost classes
or whatever or mix and match depending on numbers
but state and national should be entered in the right class
which means nominating for the correct class
the husky 250 wc would be pre 85 even with twin shocks
the argument about more rides is silly ::)
if you wanted to ride up in another class
what about the person in pre 85
they cant ride down can they
so do they miss out
shaun won the evo and pre 85 on a maico
but i bet no pre 85 riders could ride down in evo class :'(
it has to be a fair system as specially nationals and state titles
it ran last time i started it ;D
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For perusal and comment. How would this sit with the general public? A bit of a less is more look at things.
Evolution Class- General
• Evolution class shall be run as a national championship and can be independent of other classic motocross classes.
Evolution Class- Eligibility
• Modifications converting later equipment to comply will not be allowed
• Machines eligible to compete in Pre78 (or earlier) are not eligible to compete in Evolution.
• All components will be of the period the machine was manufactured.
o No linkage suspension
o No Disc brakes
o Air cooled motors
Classes
• Solo 125cc
• Solo 250cc
• Solo 263cc and over
Age Group
• No age group classes will be run at National Championships
Pre 1985 Class - General
• Pre 85 class can be run as a National Championship, and can be independent of other classes
Pre 85 Eligibility
• Acceptable machines for pre 85 are machines built up to and including the 1984 models.
The only exception to this GCR is where the model remains unaltered after this date.
The onus of proof of eligibility shall rest wholly on the rider or entrant of this machine.
• The rear suspension must be of a linkage design.
• Modifications using later equipment are not allowed.
• All components will be of the period the machine was manufactured.
Classes
• Solo 125cc
• Solo 250cc
• Solo 263cc and over
Age Group
• No age group classes will be run at National Championships
Bahnsy, I like the way you're thinking.
My thoughts:
1. I agree with NR, Ross, etc in saying that older bikes should only be excluded from newer classes at National events. HEAVEN effectively keeps the pre-78 and post-77 groups seperate, but you can still ride up an era within those groups (eg: Ride a pre-70 bike in pre-75).
2. You've perpetuated one of the current dramas with the definition of Evo - you've assumed that Evo bikes are of a particular age. As the rules are written 2009 model bike with drum brakes, non-linkage suspension and air cooling is Evo legal - regardless of whether we like it or not.
So any reference to the 'era' of an Evo bike is meaningless, unless you define that Evo bikes are made before 1985 AND have no linkage, air cooling, drum brakes (or are an unchanged carry-over model).
We all have this understanding that 'Evo is the era before pre-85', but in reality, this isn't stated anywhere. Evo-legal bikes were made from the dawn of time through to very recently. The rules need to recognise this, one way or another.
3. If you want to keep Evo-legal bikes out of the Pre-85 class, you simply need to state that: "No bikes that are eligible for the Evo class may be entered as pre-85 bikes", rather than specifying stuff like "must have linkage rear suspension".
That saves dramas with bikes like the YZ125H, 84 Husky CR250, etc.
Again, HEAVEN has a workable solution: They allow Evo bikes in the pre-85 capacity races, but also run an exclusive pre-85 class (refer also to my point #1).
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I think that you should be allowed to ride a pre '78 bike in evo , or an evo bike in pre '85 , even at a state or national title meeting . Just as long as you only nominate in that class & have the correct Z , X or Y prefix on your number plates for that particular class .
Now that the works replica thread is dying down a bit , I thought that I might bring up some other suggestions which are sure to ruffle a few feathers . Even though pre '85 & evo classes need to build up their numbers a bit ( especially 125 classes ) , I think that the pre '78 & earlier classes national title meeting should be run on a different weekend to the evo & pre '85 classes . I am not trying to be divisive, as I own & race 250 & open pre '75 , pre '78 & evo class bikes . I would like the opportunity to ride all of these bikes in their respective national title classes , but you would have to be superhuman to do it at the one meeting . The Coffs nats seemed to have a fairly full program just catering for pre '78 & earlier bikes . Also I think that the pre '75 & earlier bikes require a different track setup to the evo & later bikes . The pre '78 bikes are a bit more flexible in that they can handle either track setup .
I would also like to see an evolution 4 stroke class where all the HLs , KLXs , Husky 510s & hybrid thumpers could compete . I am sure that I will be criticised for these ideas , but I think that this forum is the ideal place to discuss them .
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Pardon me gents...the idea (I believe) of introducing Pre '78 and '85 was (apart from rider interest) to highlight the development stages of the motorcycles. To allow (at National Title level) a pre '75 bike to compete in the pre '78 class is defeating the intent of the class. Yeh...I know it is great to see a young guy on a pre '70 bike kick the pre '78 guys and then for a pre '78 bike to kick the pre '85 class..Woohoo!!..BUT ..it goes against the intent of the class..Showcase the different "eras" in their own races ..not mix and match... If clubs at state level mix them up ..then OK..but not at National Titles..
:)
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..Showcase the different "eras" in their own races ..not mix and match... If clubs at state level mix them up ..then OK..but not at National Titles..
:)
AHA!! I read all the posts but still didn't fully appreciate the problem/issue over an older bike riding 'up a class'.
Thanks for this; 'Showcase the different eras' put the missing piece into the jigsaw for me. :-[ ;D
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I think I agree with H5E.
I think I agree with Yammiefan too...
I don't have a problem with people riding up an era at National level, provided they only ride up an era on that particular bike. The solution is probably to have a rule similar to the one the historic road racers have, along the lines of 'A machine's age will be determined by its newest major component'. It may be worth adding something like "and it will run in the oldest era it is eligible for".
Having said that, I seem to recall there being a bit of a kerfuffle at a recent HRR Nationals because one bike had two different era log books, depending on which fairing was fitted at the time. I don't actually see how this is a problem, but I don't know enough about the particular case to dream of understanding the finer points...
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just on the evo , pre 85 thing.i was wondering, can you race a formula 3 car in formula 1, i dont think so,very close in technology though. i think the way forward is by Date of manufacture not whether it has this or that, if it's modified you have to prove it's still period equipment for that era,maybe 1978 to 1981 for evo and up to 1981 to 1984 for pre 85. as for riding up a class, give it a rest and be content with your era specific bikes and ride the classes avaiable to you, club days dont matter but at a national championship one bike one class should apply as you go to these events to compete not see how many laps you get.
just my thoughts, i will get back in my box now :)
Cheers Trev
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just on the evo , pre 85 thing.i was wondering, can you race a formula 3 car in formula 1, i dont think so,very close in technology though. i think the way forward is by Date of manufacture not whether it has this or that, if it's modified you have to prove it's still period equipment for that era,maybe 1978 to 1981 for evo and up to 1981 to 1984 for pre 85. as for riding up a class, give it a rest and be content with your era specific bikes and ride the classes avaiable to you, club days dont matter but at a national championship one bike one class should apply as you go to these events to compete not see how many laps you get.
just my thoughts, i will get back in my box now :)
Cheers Trev
Formula 3 close to F1 in technology... ?!?! What era are you referring to?! ???
They are poles apart - the only similarity is physical resemblance.