Author Topic: Rulebook adjustments  (Read 21067 times)

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Offline mxmaniac

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #60 on: July 12, 2008, 01:15:23 pm »
Nother one who makes sense.. love it!  ;D  ;D
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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #61 on: July 12, 2008, 01:35:02 pm »
GMC, you're absolutely spot on. The main point of concern I now have is that I agree with EVERYTHING Firko has just said. I think I need a drink.

Offline suzuki27

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #62 on: July 12, 2008, 02:56:00 pm »
What about "cartridge valve emulators". I run '83 tls,43mm forks on 1980 Evo bike and it is a lot easier to ride. I don't run these cartridge valve emulators, which I hear are worth every cent. I am mostly thinking, what the hell,who really cares- BUT ,they were not available in the day and favour the cashed up types-though as GMC said it will probably not affect the placings in a race, but it does ,to some degree, affect those who cannot afford them, say. From a competition point of view, I think one of the biggest issues is age grouping- but here too, if  we are struggling for numbers, and lap scorers for that matter, it could be difficult to implement. I think this is more important at the big turn-out meetings.

Offline BAHNZY

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #63 on: July 12, 2008, 05:05:27 pm »
Firko,
Unfortunitly Pre85 has found it's way into the GCR's and has an alliance to an Australian title, so saying lets sort out the EVO before we look at Pre85, is, unfortunitly, too late.

Graeme,
Your comment "At the end of the day, not that many guys will buy a set of $2000 fully adjustable best of breed shocks" is not that accurate. Whilst they are not $2000 a set of Ohlins and top line YSS (if my memory serves me well) are clsing up on $1600 and the amount of bikes that i see with these shocks is considerable. Like wise it frightens me the amount of 44mm Fox units (at 3K plus) that are finding there way onto bikes. Frigtening because of the cost & avalability, not the performance gain  :)

I'm with Rosco on this one, however there are people that race and do so for sheep stations and for this reason the GCR's need to be tidied up, as Magoo stated at the very start of this duiscussion. What i have been trying to do is throw some barbs out to gauge reactions and sentiment to ensure that changes are put in place that allow us to move forward, not backward.
Rod (BAHNZY) Bahn

Offline gorby

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2008, 11:06:29 am »
[quote author=GMC link

Rule changes.
I recomend we drop the "Bikes will be OEM" wording & replace it with...
All models must have been originally manufactured with all of the following
# Non linkage suspension.
# No disc brakes.
# Air cooled motors.

Can anyone better this proposal???
[/quote]

most agree,so what is the next step,proper submission thru local club using correct paperwork?
We should do something about it now instead of whinging later on.

the elders ;) of this sport,please give us guidance

Offline DJRacing

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2008, 06:30:17 pm »
MA rules as written in the rule book.

18.7.12         Evolution Class- Eligibility
18.7.12.1         Bikes will be OEM.
18.7.12.2         Modifications converting later equipment to comply will not be allowed.
18.7.12.3         All components will be of the period the machine was manufactured.
               a) No linkage suspension,
               b) No Disc brakes,
               c) Air cooled motors.

18.7.13         Evolution Classes- Classes
                   a)   Solo 125cc,
                   b)   Solo 250cc,
                   c)   Solo 263cc and over.

18.7.13.1      No age-group classes will be run.



I know I probably shouldnt be writing this but what the heck.

18.7.12        Pre 82 Evolution Class
18.7.12.1     Only bikes originally manufactured with twinshocks/cantilevered, drum brakes and air cooled
                  motors to be eligible.
18.7.12.2     Modification converting post period parts to comply will not be allowed.
18.7.12.3     After-market parts to be period specific.

18.7.13         Evolution Classes- Classes
                   a)   Solo 125cc,
                   b)   Solo 250cc,
                   c)   Solo 263cc and over.

18.7.13.1      Age groups are;
                   a)   Under 40 years of age on 1 January
                   b)   40 years of age or over on 1 January.


Ok, yes I know some people will be displeased with the "Pre 82" period, but as I see it, not having a period/year cut off is where allot of the problems seem to come from. The manufacturers of the bikes in question were happy to run their bikes against the linkaged/watercooled bikes of the day so why is it different now?
Amendments for certain bikes could be catered for if the need arise. (e.g.  YZ125H)
This is only food for thought.
If I have over stepped the boundaries here, I apologize.

If at first you dont succeed, give up and drink beer

211kawasaki

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2008, 06:39:27 pm »
Hi Gorby
rules for EVO 18.7.12.3 say that, what OEM (and we have been down this path before) says / means is that the bike  had no linkage suspension when it left the factory if using the term to discuss suspension.

the arguements that include altering disk forks to drum etc are covered in 18.7.12.2 the exclude modification of later kit to suit -say, drum brakes.

Put together a letter outlining the reasons why there should be a modification to the rule and forward it off to MA (via your local Historic Committee in your State) and lets have a look at it, anything that improves of makes easier the understanding of the rules is a good thing.

211

Offline GMC

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #67 on: July 13, 2008, 08:14:56 pm »
What about "cartridge valve emulators". I run '83 tls,43mm forks on 1980 Evo bike and it is a lot easier to ride. I don't run these cartridge valve emulators, which I hear are worth every cent. I am mostly thinking, what the hell,who really cares- BUT ,they were not available in the day and favour the cashed up types-though as GMC said it will probably not affect the placings in a race, but it does ,to some degree, affect those who cannot afford them, say. From a competition point of view, I think one of the biggest issues is age grouping- but here too, if  we are struggling for numbers, and lap scorers for that matter, it could be difficult to implement. I think this is more important at the big turn-out meetings.

I have heard argument that the "cartridge valve emulators" are an old design but they weren't very common back then,   dunno. I think that if something can make the suspension better without changing the look of the bike then this may help keep riders on the track which will be a good thing for the sport. Banning them however will lead to forks being pulled down at Natioanls & races being won off the track which I beleive would be a bad thing.
If everone has access to them then they can't be an advantage to anyone.  Expensive? from what I have heard they are cheaper than a racing licence, cheaper than a GMC pipe even :o
Still if you can't afford them, just get some "cartridge" stickers for your forks. Ink cartridge stickers will do. Then start cycling 3 times a week. The guys you used to dice with will be impressed with your new found speed & then spend all their resources searching e-bay for ink cartridge kits for their forks ::)

No need to apoligise for intellegent input DJ. I like your wording except for the pre 82 bit. I don't see the problem with Evo being open ended, I think some people just like to see everything defined in absolute black & white. Huskys had twin shocks later than 82 & it's not like they dominate the class. The more eligible bikes for a class the better. As it is, the only "late model" bikes that fit evo that I can think off are the Postie bike & Yamaha RT100 & I don't see them destroying the class.
There may even be some other European models that fit evo later than 82???

Just curious too, it seems you New Zealanders are more laid back in your events, which is great, but I imagine you don't actually have a rule book written up??
All our problems seem to stem from double meanings for words / sentences, not the actual intent.
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Offline GMC

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2008, 08:25:07 pm »
Age groups is another thing that has me curious.
I wonder why we need a under 30 class??
I think this would be better as an all in - any age class
I can understand older guys not wanting to race young fit bastards all the time & so need their own class but I don't see why the younger guys need protecting from the older riders.
If we had an all in class then the older riders that were willing to mix it with the younger guys would get a second class to ride in if they wanted.
I know a guy that went to Coffs last year, spent 3 days driving to & fro & 3 days at the track for 3 x 3lap races. If their was an all in then he would have got 6 x 3lap races.
I gather that the rules don't allow this or is it an option??
Not sure what Tassie did.
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Offline Rossvickicampbell

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2008, 09:18:24 pm »
probably one of the better threads I have seen on this forum - one and all to be congratulated.  I believe in the KISS principle to (Keep it simple stupid) and like the ideas just put forward not far before my comment GMC et all.  I also get confused when people (and we all have them) spend thousands of dollars on all this gear to still run C and B grade.  I joined VMX for the fun - realise there are probably 4-5 guys at the front of each class who ride for sheep stations (Fat Boy and I certainly dont) and is also the reson why I questioned Walter at one time as to why you needed a shock that had 600 different adjustments ( :D :D).  I hope we dont get to caught up in all this technical stuff - I can guarantee if I spent the 3K on a set of FoX Forx and $1600 on a set of rear something or rathers I still wouldn't have won at the Nats - and really doesn't that apply to most of us?

 ;D

Rossco

PS I like age group racing to - bugger those young fellas!!!!

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1980 Honda CR250R - Moto X Fox Replica

Offline mxmaniac

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #70 on: July 13, 2008, 09:51:08 pm »
probably one of the better threads I have seen on this forum - one and all to be congratulated.  I believe in the KISS principle to (Keep it simple stupid) and like the ideas just put forward not far before my comment GMC et all.  I also get confused when people (and we all have them) spend thousands of dollars on all this gear to still run C and B grade.  I joined VMX for the fun - realise there are probably 4-5 guys at the front of each class who ride for sheep stations (Fat Boy and I certainly dont) and is also the reson why I questioned Walter at one time as to why you needed a shock that had 600 different adjustments ( :D :D).  I hope we dont get to caught up in all this technical stuff - I can guarantee if I spent the 3K on a set of FoX Forx and $1600 on a set of rear something or rathers I still wouldn't have won at the Nats - and really doesn't that apply to most of us?

 ;D

Rossco

Exactly... 8)


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Offline E74

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #71 on: July 13, 2008, 09:53:59 pm »
well thats an hour of my life I'm never going to get back! >:( >:( >:(

Offline BAHNZY

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #72 on: July 13, 2008, 09:58:30 pm »
Currently the age group issue for EVO & Pre85 has been rejected by the Classic MX Commission for 2008 & 2009. Of interest is the commissions comments in the C.M.C Minutes of May 2008;
Age classes have always been an important part of the Australian Championships for CMX and CDT.
Now this applies to Pre75, however, the commission has ruled that in relation to EVO and Pre85;
In regard to age group classes the Commission is of the opinion that they do not have a place at National or Australian Championships, but may be run at local or State meetings.
In essence, age group racing is restricted to pre 75 classes.

An excerpt of these minutes are listed below for your perusal.

CMX218
Issue
Age Group Racing

Recommended / Proposed Action
Rule 13.2.8 (Categories for Senior Australian Championships) Classic MX & DT does not currently list the age classes for pre 75 competition.

Decision
The Commission recommends that age groups be included in the Australian Championship table for pre 75 CMX & CDT. These are:
(a) Under 30
(b) 30 – 39
(c) 40 – 49
(d) 50- 59
(e) 60 plus
The Commission recommends that rule 18.2.3.2 be amended.
This rule currently reads: “Age grouping applies to competition up to and including Pre-75 class”.
Amended rule to read: “Age grouping applies to competition pre 1975 only”.

Rationale / Consultation
Age classes have always been an important part of the Australian Championships for CMX and CDT, and these need to be included within the appropriate section of the rule book to formalise age groups at these
Championships.




CMX217
Issue
Evo and pre 85 rules

Recommended / Proposed Action
Unfortunitly the proposed changes were not minuted, but it went something like.
35-39
40-45
45+
(Comments from Bahnsy)


Decision
In regard to age group classes the Commission is of the opinion that they do not have a place at National or Australian Championships, but may be run at local or State meetings. Currently age group racing is restricted to pre 75 classes.

Rationale / Consultation
The authors of this request will be asked to supply a comprehensive rationale before the Commission will make any
recommendations.

As applications to the C.M.C relating to GCR's have closed for 09, all riders/interested parties that have a vested interest in revising/changing the GCR's for 2010 need to prepare a well documented brief and have it submitted before the prescribed cut off date, usualy around March 09. Whilst it may sound a long way off, i think that we all understand how quick time goes by.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 10:18:22 pm by Bahnsy »
Rod (BAHNZY) Bahn

TM BILL

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #73 on: July 15, 2008, 05:33:18 pm »
What about "cartridge valve emulators". I run '83 tls,43mm forks on 1980 Evo bike and it is a lot easier to ride. I don't run these cartridge valve emulators, which I hear are worth every cent. I am mostly thinking, what the hell,who really cares- BUT ,they were not available in the day and favour the cashed up types-though as GMC said it will probably not affect the placings in a race, but it does ,to some degree, affect those who cannot afford them, say. From a competition point of view, I think one of the biggest issues is age grouping- but here too, if  we are struggling for numbers, and lap scorers for that matter, it could be difficult to implement. I think this is more important at the big turn-out meetings.

I have heard argument that the "cartridge valve emulators" are an old design but they weren't very common back then,   dunno. I think that if something can make the suspension better without changing the look of the bike then this may help keep riders on the track which will be a good thing for the sport. Banning them however will lead to forks being pulled down at Natioanls & races being won off the track which I beleive would be a bad thing.
If everone has access to them then they can't be an advantage to anyone.  Expensive? from what I have heard they are cheaper than a racing licence, cheaper than a GMC pipe even :o
Still if you can't afford them, just get some "cartridge" stickers for your forks. Ink cartridge stickers will do. Then start cycling 3 times a week. The guys you used to dice with will be impressed with your new found speed & then spend all their resources searching e-bay for ink cartridge kits for their forks ::)

No need to apoligise for intellegent input DJ. I like your wording except for the pre 82 bit. I don't see the problem with Evo being open ended, I think some people just like to see everything defined in absolute black & white. Huskys had twin shocks later than 82 & it's not like they dominate the class. The more eligible bikes for a class the better. As it is, the only "late model" bikes that fit evo that I can think off are the Postie bike & Yamaha RT100 & I don't see them destroying the class.
There may even be some other European models that fit evo later than 82???

Just curious too, it seems you New Zealanders are more laid back in your events, which is great, but I imagine you don't actually have a rule book written up??
All our problems seem to stem from double meanings for words / sentences, not the actual intent.

Geoff i think it is fair to say that NZ events are a bit laid back , and there is no National rule book to adhere to .
There are really 3 seperate vintage organisations in NZ , 2 in the north island and one in the south.
The 3 outfits run different classes with the common theme being a pre 86 bike cut off,
and in one case a pre 81 cut off  :)

I think what keeps it simple is that Vintage MX in NZ has NO affiliation to Motorcycling New Zealand AND LONG MAY IT REMAIN THAT WAY

Its not all beer and skittles though and somone will always try it on with later components , however with no formal rule book and no where to run off and appeal a decision ie MNZ the events are self policing and people generally tow the line.

Also any idividual or group of people can source a suitible piece of land and run an event at any given time and create there own rules and classes for the event.

Iv'e said it before and ill say it again  ::) just because it works here does'nt mean it will work elsewhere.

As an outsider who gets to ride a few of your events, i find them very enjoyable . Particulally the Classic dirt events , the only real advantage i find in NZ is at competition events we seem to get a shit load more track time ie longer races and more of them  :)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 09:52:29 pm by TM BILL »

Offline Tim754

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #74 on: July 15, 2008, 06:19:47 pm »
Tm Bill     "I think what keeps it simple is that Vintage MX in NZ has to affiliation to Motorcycling New Zealand "  should that be "no" instead of "to"? cause it a little confusing as written. Tim754 
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