Author Topic: Rulebook adjustments  (Read 21068 times)

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Offline Husky500evo

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2008, 04:56:23 pm »
    I had another read of the gazetted for discussion changes for evo class ( item no. CMX217) & while I agree with most of  it , I do have some reservations about the bit prohibiting adjustment clickers on rear shocks unless they originally came out on the bike . As someone mentioned in an earlier thread , old school Ohlins have fully adjustable compression & rebound shim stacks . Its just that it takes about 2 hours to disassemble them , make changes & put them back together again , compared to adjusting clickers that take about 2 minutes . It just makes setting up your bike easier . I have not yet seen anyone reach down & adjust their clickers during a race . I do however think that the latest developments with high/low speed compression clickers on twin shocks is pushing the boundarys , as this would theoretically increase the quality of the suspension up to modern standards . But if you write the rules to only allow rear suspension clickers on bikes that originally came out with them , like Yamaha monoshocks , what is to stop them from having high/low compression clickers when everyone else can't have them .
    Also why not make the maximum allowable fork tube size 44mm to include aftermarket forks such as Fox or Simons , so long as they were manufactured before 1985 & designed for use with drum brakes ?
       
« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 10:30:56 pm by Husky500evo »

211kawasaki

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2008, 05:52:14 pm »
Re;The shock,, my take on the rule suggestion isnt to not allow a new Ohlins shock that is of the same type available in the period - clickers or not. The same arguement is not allowing remote resoviour shocks pre 75 because they simply were not available but gas shocks were and there is a big business in re-creating this type of shock for pre75 racing. Its the same thing.

The point of the rules is to encorage people, not make it hard for them. Its always going to be a compromise and in the end its the riders and their state representitives that have the say. As I have said before the Commission is not there to invent rules. Its roll is to take correctly presented recomendations from the riders (stakeholders of the sport) and put them into a format for discussion with the states and then (ultimatly) based on the responces include or not amendments in the rule book. If there is a better way that we could word the rule recomendation please let your state committee know and with forward it.

Hope this helps you guys

Offline Nathan S

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2008, 06:16:43 pm »
I believe that the 44mm maximum diameter rule was an attempt to stop later model forks (usually not from an Evo bike, and often originally disc brake forks) being converted to use on Evo bikes.

I don't have a strong opinion on using later drum brake forks (from non-Evo bikes), but I don't think that converted disc brake forks are in the spirit of the rules.
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline Husky500evo

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2008, 07:31:16 pm »
       I don't have a problem with any conventional forks that came off a bike originally fitted with drum brakes , because I can't think of any that would be better than YZ465H forks anyway . I see that some of the bikes from the Dutch twinshock class were fitted with WP 50mm Extreme forks, like the ones on my '98 Husaberg ( & matched up to a Maico drum front wheel ). I think that this is totally wrong & should never be allowed in evo class rules . Maybe they used a Maico drum front brake because you would wash off speed quickly in the deep sand of Holland & not need a strong front brake .   
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 07:32:49 pm by Husky500evo »

211kawasaki

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2008, 09:44:39 pm »
if there was a set of 44mm forks that came from a drum brake EVO legal bike or an available set of period (not modified from disk) forks then they are OK - I dont know any but if they exist they are OK. If you modify a set of disk forks from anything its not OK.

211

Offline BAHNZY

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2008, 10:10:47 pm »
After much deliberation I have decided to start a suspension company. Many thousand dollars later, and following extensive research i have decided that here is a market for a set of 50mm conventional forks that have been specificaly designed for a drum brake EVO bike, I then offer them for sale and they start to turn up on bikes at races around Australia.

Now many EVO competiors, some on this thread, will see red and say that this not in the spirit and protest the use of the forks, yet at the same time we are prepared to accept that a rear shock with all the technology and tuneability avalable today is o/k - WHY?

Lets not even go to the place in time where light switch widow maker engines that could never be "fixed" back in the day are tamed in todays environment with exhausts, carburetion, and ignition ssytems made avalable only because of the materials and technology of recent times.

Rod (BAHNZY) Bahn

Offline marshallmech

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2008, 10:29:19 pm »
Still wont help me catch those young blokes




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Offline Graeme M

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2008, 09:02:45 am »
I know this doesn't help this discussion, but it's just an observation from my point of view. I am not a particularly serious competitor, I just don't have the win at all costs mind set. To me, vintage MX is about racing the bikes of old and enjoying the whole buzz of the scene. But regardless how unergonomic the bike is, or how weird it's engine is, it's the suspension that has the most influence on how much I enjoy it. Most of the tracks I race on are pretty rough. I am an old club day flat tracker and trail rider. Being knocked around and beat up on a track is not my idea of fun. So, decent forks and good quality shocks make all the difference. I can ride faster, smoother and more safely. It's not gonna make me so much faster that I am a race winner because that comes from skill, mindset and fitness. I can't buy that.

I do acknowledge though that all things being equal the guy with later model forks and the latest and greatest shocks will be quicker than the guy who hasn't got them, but to me I am not sure that's such a great issue. If we can put reasonable limits on things then we should be OK. Having lots of money to throw at an Evo bike doesn't necessarily mean that you are fast.

Surely a simple rule that prohibits diameter of forks and type of forks (ie max of 44mm or whatever was around back then), non cartridge right way up is enough? Same for shocks, why worry about how many clickers they have? At the end of the day, not that many guys will buy a set of $2000 fully adjustable best of breed shocks for his 490 Maico. And for the rest of us, a nice set of multi adjustable shocks makes the ride safer and more comfortable.

Do we really need to get get all worked up about it? Mind you, I haven't read this thread right through so I don't actually know what the changes being proposed are so I am probably talking through my arse, but it's my two cents worth... And as has been pointed out to me before, the guy who does have the I gotta win mindset does worry about these things.


Offline yzhilly

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2008, 09:54:25 am »
Surely there is not that many bikes that are the last  Evo Legal models , Why not just list them and if it's not off those bikes or Aftermarket fitted to those bikes (Owner to supply proof) it's not legal and suspension has always been whoever had the most money , To me it should still look like 1981 Hotrod YZ or Whatever. Someone Quizzed me if my Bike was legal with 43mm forks YZ400E of course it is if there off a YZ250H.Just thought i'd stir the pot.
yzhilly ,YZ400E,,YZ250J,YZ125K,YZ100K,IT465H ,IT400D,IT250K , IT200L,XR250,XL250R,XL200R,XL125
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Offline mxmaniac

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2008, 10:35:25 am »


 ;)  Spot on Graeme! ;D   I am with you on this one..
I think most people realise its a not just the bike thats puts u at the pointy end..
I personally enjoy the VMX scene for the fun and to have a good time talkin shit with the fella's etc
I coulnt give 2 hoots (apart from being Jealous) if a guy rocks up on a KX500 with massive factory ohlins forks/shock and smokes me!  I admire his work, effort, $$$$ and the bike, glad to see he enjoys what his done.. Lucky him to be able to get hold of such thing. If it makes the bike better and safer to ride, great! less chance of an ambo!
Maico's, the only way to go.

Offline yzhilly

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2008, 11:12:50 am »
Now c,mon Rossco have you gone soft and fuzzy while in plaster as you are one of the more  serious racers .
yzhilly ,YZ400E,,YZ250J,YZ125K,YZ100K,IT465H ,IT400D,IT250K , IT200L,XR250,XL250R,XL200R,XL125
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Offline yzhilly

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2008, 11:23:27 am »
Sounds great as long as that paddock has got berms and jumps just like Ravo
yzhilly ,YZ400E,,YZ250J,YZ125K,YZ100K,IT465H ,IT400D,IT250K , IT200L,XR250,XL250R,XL200R,XL125
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Offline GMC

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2008, 12:01:40 pm »
After much deliberation I have decided to start a suspension company. Many thousand dollars later, and following extensive research i have decided that here is a market for a set of 50mm conventional forks that have been specificaly designed for a drum brake EVO bike, I then offer them for sale and they start to turn up on bikes at races around Australia.

Now many EVO competiors, some on this thread, will see red and say that this not in the spirit and protest the use of the forks, yet at the same time we are prepared to accept that a rear shock with all the technology and tuneability avalable today is o/k - WHY?

Lets not even go to the place in time where light switch widow maker engines that could never be "fixed" back in the day are tamed in todays environment with exhausts, carburetion, and ignition ssytems made avalable only because of the materials and technology of recent times.

Shocks & forks have always been tuneable, some easier than others. Larger fork diamaters will improve handling, I believe larger shock shafts mostly increases shock life.
"clickers" are a financial gain not a performance gain as all shocks can be pulled apart to reset valving but at greater expense compared to picking up a screwdriver.
If someone made a replica fox fork their wouldn't be a problem.
Forks I would consider a major part of the bike even though they are often made by other companies for the manufacturer.
The rules will never be foolproof but I wonder why your looking so hard for loopholes.
I have read on this forum that we have too many rules but you want another rule to state the bleeding obvious??

The object of the rules is to create a level playing field of sorts for the various era's, their will always be someone that isn't happy when a line has been drawn.
And the rules allow some modern technology in to make our lives easier, it's about reliving the good old days, not being stuck in a time warp. It's not meant to be a contest about who can find original parts.
If a good ignition & suspension makes your ride enjoyable then this is a good thing for the sport.
While I worry about the engineers that are trying to make something that never was, I also worry about the guy that gets his knickers in a twist about something I deem trivial like modern reed material.

The original rule makers rightly deemed that consumable parts could be replaced.

Ignitions - anything goes. If you can replace your burnt out CDI or dodgy points with something new & reliable so you don't have to push your bike 2 Km's to start it then this is a good thing. Allthough this rule was probably made before programabble ignitions were common I still don't see the problem so long as the bike looks normal from the outside. It may be a minor advantage but you will still have to ride your tits off if you want a trophy.

Exhausts - almost anything goes. Okay, I have vested interest here. Pipes wear out, & they need to be easily replacable in order to keep bums on seats at racetracks. People seem to be getting toey about fat pipes or different headers. I don't consider that these fat pipes are that much bigger than stock & if you go too big it will have a detrimental effect anyway. Pipes came with many diiferent specs from the many brands & models in the day so which spec are you going to enforce? It would be impossible to make a rule that defines what pipe specs you can use so why bother trying.
It may be a minor advantage but you will still have to ride your tits off if you want a trophy.

Reed valves - anything goes as long as the engine remains externally unchanged.
People are fitting modern style reeds, so what. Others are probably fitting cams with modern specs. Will they really be that much of an advantage, I don't believe so. And banning these will mean more protests & engine pulldowns at nationals. Results will be held up for weeks while we await spectro analysis of reed material or we await carbon dating of a cam shaft. Everyone has access to these things so you still have a level playing field.
It may be a minor advantage but you will still have to ride your tits off if you want a trophy.

OEM - strange wording for a rule, but I beleive the intent was to mean that all parts were to be from evo eligible bikes. I can't believe that it was intended that your bike was ineligible for having after market seat bolts.
Modern KTM's with drum bakes & fins aren't allowed as per 18.7.12.2 Modifications converting later equipment to comply are not allowed.

Rule changes.
I recomend we drop the "Bikes will be OEM" wording & replace it with...
All models must have been originally manufactured with all of the following
# Non linkage suspension.
# No disc brakes.
# Air cooled motors.

Can anyone better this proposal???
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Offline mxmaniac

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #58 on: July 12, 2008, 12:23:51 pm »
plain and simple GMC, easy to understand for everyone!!!  ;D  ;D

LETS ALL JUST F$%KIN RIDE AND HAVE "FUN" ...  THAT's WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT AT THE END OF THE DAY FOR MOST PEOPLE.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2008, 12:36:20 pm by mxmaniac »
Maico's, the only way to go.

firko

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Re: Rulebook adjustments
« Reply #59 on: July 12, 2008, 12:50:29 pm »
I've deliberately kept out of this debate as I'm not a part of the Evolution Revolution and feel that those who ride the class should be those debating its future. Having said that I've just spent a lazy hour going over this thread trying to get my head around what it's all about. I enjoy and support the evo division and would love to see it reach its full potential. Anybody who thinks the class is going well needs to have a good look and see that some of the classes, the 125 class for example are far from full strength. I know I keep harping about the "old days" of vintage but the comparison can't be ignored. In the mid nineties, at the peak of the pre '75 eras reign we were fielding full grids in 125, 250, 500 in four age divisions! Then add full grids for 4 stroke, pre,70 and reasonable fields in pre 65 and you have a healthy scene.
When the Evo division can match those figures we'll be able to truthfully say that the division is in good health.

Rather than debate ad infinitum over rule revisions, I feel that the emphasis should be pointed towards getting more bums on seats and promoting the class to a wider audience. The rules are fine as they are, they just have to be explained in simpler and less ambiguous terms. GMCs post makes a lot of sense, especially his take on the OEM matter. I've never understood why people read all sorts of meaning into the OEM description. It was probably the wrong term to use and should perhaps have read as GMC wrote......
All models must have been originally manufactured with all of the following
# Non linkage suspension.
# No disc brakes.
# Air cooled motors.
The fork thing is equally as easy. If the forks come off a drum brake bike, they're legal. If they're off a disk bike, they're out. Everything else should be as GMC stated. Clickers on shocks? Who cares?

The whole attraction of the Evo class is it's openness. If racers are honest with themselves and their fellow competitors it'll all go smoothly. Like I have suggested for the dunger class, you'd be put off using ineligible components if your fellow racers were keeping an eye one each other. We are a pretty knowledgable lot and I doubt it if illegal forks or something from outside of the drum brake/air cooled era would last too long before it was spotted.

As I said earlier, Evo is a great class that needs nurturing. Before we start pushing for pre 85 and god forbid pre 90, we need to get Evo running right with easier to adhere to rules and more importantly, better attempts at recruiting more starters........I'll go away now and leave you all to it ;D
 
« Last Edit: July 12, 2008, 12:52:51 pm by firko »