OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Marc.com on February 08, 2010, 06:07:36 pm
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I guess it is part of the 2 str / 4 str debate but this is pretty sobering article from Rick on the cost of overhauling a modern 4 stroke.
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/02/shocking-four-stroke-costs/
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what a rip off
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I have heard of a few people who have been 'burnt' with a mechanical mishap with a modern 4T. A dropped valve can write a bike off - it's cheaper to sell the wreck as a rolling chassis than it is to even buy the replacement parts ::). It doesn't pay to skimp on maintenance :P.
Ya gotta love the 2T - new piston and rebore, and new bottom end, a $1000 later it is factory fresh 8).
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I remember you could do a 202 engine for about $1200 back in the day and it has 6 pistons.
But think of the recycling opportunites for blown up CRFs
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Not exactly new information, but still interesting reading.
A mate of mine bought a YZF450 that blew a crank before he wore out the first set of chain and sprockets and the Yamaha dealer didn't seem surprised. ::)
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The cylinder thing is Hunky showing his age - aside from the CR500, I can't think of a performance 2-stroke that has had a boreable cylinder since the early 1990s. Even XR600s ran them for a couple of years before Honda chintzed-out and went back to a cast liner.
I dunno how they work in the modern 4-strokes, but a half-way properly maintained plated bore in a 2-stroke lasts about as well as an iron liner - without the cost of reboring it along the way.
None of which is to claim that a modern 4-stroke is cheap to fix...
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As much as we all hate the modern four strokes (4T. There you go) I'm seriously thinking of parking one of the new-age YZ 450F's next to my 465. What a great set of book-ends for everything else that came in-between..... :P
(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy10/MXMADEIRA/motas%202010/YZ450F-2010-10.jpg)
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The modern 4 strokes are great bikes. I've had several since i got one of the first '98 YZF400's and never looked back.
$3500 is very exagerated for a top end rebuild. It would have to break a rod, destroy the cylinder and smash all the valves and piston to be anywhere near that. While that is possible it's usually due to poor or no maintenance. Regular oil changes and valve clearnce checks are required.
I've never had anything break in 12 years of owning modern 4 strokes.
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Shit! I had the top end of the Z900 re-built incl: rings, valves and seals some letting of the piston crowns heli-coiled over a dozen threads, gaskets etc. etc. for $2,800.00
Sounds expensive for a single pot??
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Husaberg 1998 FC600
Piston: Genuine $475 - Woosner $395
Con Rod: Genuine Only $350
Valves: $120 (Each)
Valve Guides: $45 each
Gasket Kit: $220
Roller Rocker & Pins $125 (eachx2)
Bearings: $300 (engine & gearbox)
Cam chain: $130
Consumables: $60 (Oil/Filter/Spark Plug etc)
Machine work: 4 Hrs @ $80 per hour
$2500 and that does not include;
- Labour
- Gearbox or clutch work
- Removing & refitting the engine
- And all the other things that typically need doing like repacking the muffler.
If you have a early Yamaha 5 valve, most of the above, but be warned, if the cam chain and gears are flogged, add a complete crankshaft as the crank gear is machined into the left crank web and is not able to be separated, oh..... and there is another valve to add to the list.
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The thing that worries me with the modern 4 strokes is even if you do the right maintenance and look after the bike some of the manufactures manage to put out an absolute lemon that still blow up, for example the current KTM's and the CRF250's a few years back. You'd think they would be able to get it right by now!
Recently I've seen way to many of my mates brand new bikes (less than 1000k) heading back to the dealer for engine tear downs / rebuilds >:(
KTM525 rebuilds come in at about $2000 and thats with nothing broken, if I dropped a valve and had to buy a head and cylinder, I hate to think what it would cost, luckily I think its very rare for it to happen.
I reckon your spot on Nathan, anyone bagging plated bores is a bit out of touch. I had several blow ups on plated bores and most times the plating has survived even if the piston is melted all over it, a couple I've had to replate - no biggie cheaper than all the rebores I would have had to pay for along the way
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Why all the doom and gloom about modern 4 strokes? If they were such shit boxes they wouldn't be selling any..
Sure they cost a lot more to rebuild than an XL350 but they also perform a little better and performance ain't cheap.
Most of them are very reliable and there are a lot of them out there.
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Just as a point of veiw thing ktm300's you have to be on a waiting list for a new one of those. :)
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The modern 4 strokes are great bikes. I've had several since i got one of the first '98 YZF400's and never looked back.
$3500 is very exagerated for a top end rebuild. It would have to break a rod, destroy the cylinder and smash all the valves and piston to be anywhere near that. While that is possible it's usually due to poor or no maintenance. Regular oil changes and valve clearnce checks are required.
I've never had anything break in 12 years of owning modern 4 strokes.
The young guy I know had a second hand WR426 and was actually riding back from the dealer (stealer) after asking his opinion about a small valve clatter/noise - "that's normal. Don't worry about it" ::). The exact sequence might be speculation but a valve head was broken off and pounded the head and bent and damaged every other valve and seat and generally pock marked the head. The quote was for new parts but included all the head, piston and maybe a new barrel (I can't remember) - $4500 for parts only.
Yeah, you probably could do it cheaper but it still wasn't gunna be cheap :P :-[.
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Why all the doom and gloom about modern 4 strokes? If they were such shit boxes they wouldn't be selling any..
Sure they cost a lot more to rebuild than an XL350 but they also perform a little better and performance ain't cheap.
Most of them are very reliable and there are a lot of them out there.
The point is that they are great while they are going great but...........
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Why all the doom and gloom about modern 4 strokes?
Well for me its because I have never ever seen a brand new two stroke lunch itself, and if it did it would cost $1000 to fix.
I've lost count of the number of new 4 strokes I've seen die when new on trail rides.
I agree they are awesome bikes and I'll keep buying them but after what I've seen a few of my close mates go thru in the last year I will always have a healthy fear of them.
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If a 4 stroke blows up sure it's expensive.. there are a lot of moving parts in there.
The idea is correct maintenance and replace parts before they break.. not thrash it for 200 hours then bitch when something breaks.
I couldn't even begin to count how many siezed 2 strokes i've seen on the side of the track before the modern 4 stroke era.
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I've lost count of the number of new 4 strokes I've seen die when new on trail rides.
I can see that could be read a couple of ways, I don't mean new as in modern, I mean brand new as in just off the showroom floor not even made it to first service and they have already blown up!
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I've lost count of the number of new 4 strokes I've seen die when new on trail rides.
I can see that could be read a couple of ways, I don't mean new as in modern, I mean brand new as in just off the showroom floor not even made it to first service and they have already blown up!
Can't say i've ever seen that mick but you can be unlucky.
I'm willing to take the risk on 4 strokes for the performance and overall package and fun factor.
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A dropped valve can write a bike off
I have seen this happen. its not good trust me.
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A mates son rode his XR400 in the dirt every weekend and on the 20k to and from work a couple of times a week for five years with nary a problem. He traded it in on a Honda WR250F because the magazines and his riding mates told him he had to "get with it" and ride something modern. After one club dirt track, a couple of trail rides he was forced to ride the WR to work for a few days when his wife needed the car. On the fourth or fifth day the bike started running rough to the point that it's barely pull up a slight hill and started knocking and blowing smoke. He put it into Hawkesbury Honda to check it out and a couple of days later he got the result...the bike needed a total top end overhaul from piston to valves and a bunch more stuff. He was quoted $2500 at 'mates rates' labour costs. As a young battler he couldn't afford to fix it.... The bike was three months old and totally rooted so he ended up selling it to a bloke for parts. I think he's still paying it off!
These modern 4 strokes may be great when they're going but for the average weekend rider, they're too complex and finnicky. The market needs an electric start XR Honda with modern suspension. Since I parted with the KTM400 I haven't owned a trailie but lately I'm feeling the need of one. I love riding the new bikes but as an older retired gent living on a limited budget and not wanting to race, I doubt I'll own one. Unfortunately there's little choice for someone looking for a weekend trail bike with decent suspension, electric start and a solid low maintenance engine except for the DRZ/KLX clone bikes of a couple of years ago or perhaps a Euro 2 stroke. What do you guys suggest?
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I couldn't even begin to count how many siezed 2 strokes i've seen on the side of the track before the modern 4 stroke era.
we must have hung out at different tracks, I saw bikes do a lot of desert miles in WA and can't remember too many seized ones, the odd boiled one I guess. Not many bikes blew up at all 2 stroke or 4 stroke.
I think mainly people are steered on to the wrong bikes by sales people and ego, DRZ400 will last forever, RMZ450 probably not. Told a mate of mine to buy and DRZ400 for novice trail riding and he turned up with KTM450SX, no helping some people.
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Firko, most / some of the new 4 strokes have a life span of a 2 stroke eg....Honda CRF 250 and 450 -manufacturer recomends piston and ring change @ 10 hours (you even get a piston and ring set in the spares kit) and I know alot of people didn't even get 10 hours out of the shit Titianium valves Honda uses. At the Aussie 4 Day when the Hondas came out a few years back I dont think any of them finished past the second day -valves hammered into head so bad they wouldn't start!!!.... the cure, put stainless valves in!. The Safari 3? years ago when Grabbam won, every night the mechanics put a brand new engine in!.....Honda goes, Honda blows. The reason we have 4 strokes is not because there faster, not because there less polluting (in noise and emissions ),not because there lighter, it's so the friggen manufacturer makes a shit load more money!!!!!. CON JOB!!!!
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To me the issue isn't how good the new 4 strokes are,its the cost to maintain them.
My 06 WR450F has been reliable but one day it will become someone elses time bomb and most likely a parts bike.
That was never the case with a 2 stroke...seized top end...no big deal,piston,rings,a couple of gaskets,off you go.
It aint gonna get any cheaper with fuel pumps,injectors,sensors,ECU's etc etc.
I like my 4 stroke,but i love my 2 strokes....less moving parts more fun....cheaper.
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I like my 4 stroke,but i love my 2 strokes....less moving parts more fun....cheaper.
However this was not always the case, my 83 TT600 is still stone cold reliable, has more people on it than a porn star and been used as general hack for years with occasional oil change and valves checked every decade.
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No doubting you Marc regarding the old time 4 strokes,reliable as hell, and basic.
Its the new stuff that will possibly become only parts bikes because of the horrendous cost to rebuild them in the future,but i suppose people will pay to restore that vintage 4 valve reverse cylinder EFI YZ450F in 20 years time......if you can get parts.
Cheers......Mario
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What do you guys suggest?
Personally, I'd like a Yamaha TTR250 if I was buying a "modern" trail/fun bike. A bit lacking in the performance area obviously, but air cooled reliability and the fact they have a kick and electric start makes them pretty attractive to me.
I've heard nothing but good things about them - reliable as a hammer seems to be the general consensus. Yamaha still make them too, so spares (if you need them) should not be a problem.
Used ones turn up on ebay etc quite cheaply from time to time.
Tex
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I have spoken to a few friends who are bike mechanics and MX/enduro racers and gotten similar mixed comments to those voice here. The guys that I ride reliability trial with (two of which are bike mechanics) generally get more that a season (which is about 50hr) worth of competition out of their engines, without any problems. However, I have spoken with another friend who runs a bike workshop, and he has reported that a lot of the bikes he has worked on have only done in the order of 20 - 30 hr "play racing". I think there could be something the way the bikes are ridden and the maintenance level applied in each case, i.e. the racers look after their bikes while riding and maintain them properly, changing air filters every fuel stop in the reliability trials and fully servicing them after every event, whereas the "play racers" flog them when riding and in general neglect them /ride them until they die, and might only clean the air filter and change the oil when their is nothing better to do.
All that I can say, is it is another reason to love the old technology of my 500 Yamaha's.
CJ
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What do you guys suggest?
Personally, I'd like a Yamaha TTR250 if I was buying a "modern" trail/fun bike. A bit lacking in the performance area obviously, but air cooled reliability and the fact they have a kick and electric start makes them pretty attractive to me.
I've heard nothing but good things about them - reliable as a hammer seems to be the general consensus. Yamaha still make them too, so spares (if you need them) should not be a problem.
Used ones turn up on ebay etc quite cheaply from time to time.
Tex
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/icons/638.gif)
A pity they didn't make a 350-400 version ;).
The other great 4T trailie is the DRZ400 - they hire them up at Cape York, own them for 12 months, use them abuse them and get rid of them without a prob (or so I've heard ::))
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i suppose people will pay to restore that vintage 4 valve reverse cylinder EFI YZ450F in 20 years time......if you can get parts.
Cheers......Mario
Oh the fun part Mario of a new YZ450F is you only have to wait a few hours before having to restore it. ;D
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/Blown-4-head.jpg)
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I think the next trailie will be a DRZ400 or perhaps a Kato 300 electric start two stroke unless something more suitable comes along. I love the little TTR250 but I'm a big lump and need a tad more power. A friend had one with a 305 kit in it which sparked it up a but but it was still not quite enough for moi! I love the technology of the new generation bikes but think that the big factories not offering a low tech alternative for the average weekend punter may eventually come back to haunt them. Not everyone rides Supercross or rides open enduros.
Look at history...The Yamaha DT1, Honda XL250 Motorsport, PE Suzuki, IT Yamaha, Yamaha XT500, and XR400/600 were basic, simple, easy to live with bikes that were virtually bulletproof if treated properly. They all sold in their millions. I had a Yamaha TT600 on which I raced dirt track, rode it on the street, trail rode many weekends and even rode an early Thumpernats meet. It was also the best wheelie bike ever made. In over 8 years of ownership it had only one top end overhaul, a cam chain and a couple of sets of rings. It still had the original piston, valve springs and valves in it when I sold it and it was still running fine.
Try that on your new generation 4 stroke.
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Something I've considered doing recently - New XR400SM, then find a late 90's CR500 that has had its engine removed for a conversion. Swap the forks, swingarm shock and wheels in to the XR. Then put the XR on a bit of a diet - remove all the road gear, lighter pipe etc.
Reliable bike, resonable weight, air cooled so no rads to cave in and decent suspension
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Biggest drama for the modern 4T engine is their ability to rev well beyond the torque peak. With a flat torque curve it's hard to tell when your past peak torque too.That's what kills them.
The performance has a trade off and that is the maintenance schedule, XR's?TT's don't really perform anything like a new 450.It's not only dirt bikes, racing a CBR600 will have you changing a cam chain every 3 meetings.....or loose 5-8HP on top.
If you don't want the maintenance don't buy one, falling sales is the only thing companies 'listen' to.
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3 things the mod 4t dont have that I would like to see again.
A comfy seat.
A fuel tank that gets more than 100K's.
And a big bore 4t that has next to no tool work for thousands of K's.
Those 3 things are just memory's of bikes we once had, but I have met plenty who said if they made a bike like this again they would buy them, not everyone wants a mod race bike.
The only bikes you can buy at the moment that go close are the DRZ 250/400, KLX 250, TTR 250 non of these have to much power but when the mod bikes are all out of petrol you still will not have hit reserve, they might be heavy and have soft suspension, but you ass and back will thank you at the end of the day as you were sitting on that nice comfy seat and not a plank.
Unless they bring out a big bore one of these I will be buying a DRZ 400 next and trim a few things off it plus do a little work to the suspension, change the bars and add risers and then all that will be needed is air filter clean every ride and oil change from time to time unlike the mods that need oil changed every couple of rides.
Cheers Mick.
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I have ridden xr600's they are ok but very heavy and like to flood if you dont get them going straight away especially the dual carb models the good thing about the xr600 they tend to keep going but my mates one had the carb butterfly snap and make a bit of a mess but probably a bit unlucky on that one.
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Here's a thought! Long after all the current forum contributors are dead and gone, I presume and hope OZVMX, VMX Mag and the whole vintage scene is still going strong.Do you think people will be restoring and racing the current crop of bikes? Lets say 40 years time! Will you be able to source the multitude and complexity of parts required. I stay awake at night worrying about this sort of stuff!!! Jerry
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Bottom line is that they have tried to get 2 stroke power outputs from 2 strokes. The engines are built with too light weight components, too high reving, and too little oil capacity, sometimes barely 1 liter. These bikes are designed for professional racers, not amature racers or weekend riders.
I wish they still made the XR650 and the KLX 650
i thought the same thing too Jerry, whats going to happen to all these blown up modern bikes? They better be recycled and not eventually end up as landfill.
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Here's a thought! Long after all the current forum contributors are dead and gone, I presume and hope OZVMX, VMX Mag and the whole vintage scene is still going strong.Do you think people will be restoring and racing the current crop of bikes? Lets say 40 years time! Will you be able to source the multitude and complexity of parts required. I stay awake at night worrying about this sort of stuff!!! Jerry
Maybe but probably not.
One thing that makes restoring bikes possible today is that parts are available. The reason parts are available through out the world today is because there is a lot of left over 'dead stock' NOS because dealer use to carry a lot of stock themselves. Shops went defunct and sold off 'dead stock' at bargain price and it made it affordable for people to squirrel it away - or hung onto themselves.
Now everything is centralised with the distributors, and even back at the factory, and everything is delivered JIT or back ordered (after deposit ::)). Distributors are much more hard nosed and either realise the stock is not in demand (and not re-ordered), realise stock is not moving (and discount it to sell it), or simply dump it because it cost money to store it.
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Unless they bring out a big bore one of these I will be buying a DRZ 400 next and trim a few things off it plus do a little work to the suspension,
Cheers Mick.
The DRZ400E (not the crappy road version) fits its market perfectly. They are fast enough and you can up spec the suspension with RM leftovers for peanuts.
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Firko the DRZ400 is a great trailbike, very reliable and does everything well. I had one for a couple of years and it was a great bike.
The KTM300 is also a great enduro/trail bike if you prefer a 2 stroke.
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LOL @ Marc.....thanx for the pic of the mess....poor soul that has to foot the bill!
If todays supplys and suppliers of parts remain at the factory or distributors...does that mean todays parts in 20 years time will not exist? So the future VMX restorer of todays bikes have no hope?
I know in the automotive industry NOS parts now get destroyed as a tax write-off instead of distibuting to the dealers and sitting on the "shelves" plus the cost of transporting the stuff.
Who knows......
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Very interesting discussion. :)
I absolutely love the new generation of 4 strokes. They look cool, they sound cool and they go even better.
But I've heard too many reports from people I know personally of their short lifespan and expense to repair for me ever to consider owning one.
e.g. the guy with the YZF450 that shat a crank before it shat it's first set of sprockets is a mate I've had for nearly 30 years and he is rediculously pedantic when it comes to maintaining his machinery. Yet it still failed. :-\
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Unless they bring out a big bore one of these I will be buying a DRZ 400 next and trim a few things off it plus do a little work to the suspension,
Cheers Mick.
The DRZ400E (not the crappy road version) fits its market perfectly. They are fast enough and you can up spec the suspension with RM leftovers for peanuts.
I was talking to the local Suzuki dealer the other day and he was telling me that the DRZ400 is the 3rd highest sold bike in OZ so it shows that there are still plenty of people out there that want this type of bike,,but it seems all the other company's Honda, KTM, etc are just going to let Suzuki have that market to themselves,,,I just wish they made a DRZ600-650 aswell to pull this big frame of mine up the hills better ;D.
Cheers Mick.
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Now THERES a thought... We may be the last generation able to 'restore' our old dirtbikes (or roadbikes). Imagine in 20 years, first finding a YZLX450F that isn't blown up. Then, imagine trying to find the bits to do a bit of a basic tidy up. On a 1978 YZ250, it's a few bearings and seals, a piston kit and rod kit, and maybe wheel/swingarm bearings. Then some fiddling around trying to find plastics and so on. But in 20 years time, all the bikes will be electric, and no-one, but no-one, will be storing the parts for our YZLX450F. And imagine how many parts you might need for a liquid cooled hi-tech 4-stroke with all sorts of doodads and gimickery and electric start and EFI and contorted exhaust systems and complex wiring harnesses and programmable ignitions and....
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Now THERES a thought... We may be the last generation able to 'restore' our old dirtbikes (or roadbikes). Imagine in 20 years,
In 20 year the motors will be electric and the frame will be made of edible celulose and most us will be singing with the angels. ;D
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Now THERES a thought... We may be the last generation able to 'restore' our old dirtbikes (or roadbikes). Imagine in 20 years, first finding a YZLX450F that isn't blown up. Then, imagine trying to find the bits to do a bit of a basic tidy up. On a 1978 YZ250, it's a few bearings and seals, a piston kit and rod kit, and maybe wheel/swingarm bearings. Then some fiddling around trying to find plastics and so on. But in 20 years time, all the bikes will be electric, and no-one, but no-one, will be storing the parts for our YZLX450F. And imagine how many parts you might need for a liquid cooled hi-tech 4-stroke with all sorts of doodads and gimickery and electric start and EFI and contorted exhaust systems and complex wiring harnesses and programmable ignitions and....
Not only will there be lots of parts but a lot of them will be 'model specific' and, although similar, will not easily interchange.
The major players have been doing it for the past 20 years. It's a tactic to keep their replacement parts market. If a part interchanges for several year models the volume makes it viable for the aftermarket to move in (the best/worst example would be VW bettle and Harley) . And since car and bike manufacture make their money at the parts counter this ain't gunna happen.
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Here's a thought! Long after all the current forum contributors are dead and gone, I presume and hope OZVMX, VMX Mag and the whole vintage scene is still going strong.Do you think people will be restoring and racing the current crop of bikes? Lets say 40 years time! Will you be able to source the multitude and complexity of parts required. I stay awake at night worrying about this sort of stuff!!! Jerry
Probably yes, right now I can 3D scan any item or draw it in Solidworks and have a replica rapid proto-typed(for casting ) or CNC machined right before your eyes. Make an IGES./STL file and email to a factory in China and they get back to me with a price for a 100 or 1000 min order.This type of thing will only get cheaper and more accessable in the future
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Not only all of the above but I don't believe people in the future (Generation XYZ... or whatever their called) will give a rats fat clacker about any history of the sport because unless they do a radical turn around in their mindset they will continue to be self absorbed, self serving, instantly gratifying, throw away consumers! Sorry Im having a rant. Its hot and humid here in Melbourne maybe I should go and lie down....
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I know in the automotive industry NOS parts now get destroyed as a tax write-off instead of distibuting to the dealers and sitting on the "shelves" plus the cost of transporting the stuff.
This is not anything new, I know an old guy who worked for Carcycle (Honda car and bike dealers) in Adelaide in the 1960 - 70's. He has told me about loading trucks with new parts during the 70's, that were then taken to Wingfield tip where they were dumped and driven over / ripped into the ground by the bulldozers in front of the tax inspectors. All as a tax right off for the company.
CJ
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It's all ying and yang. If you want to ride something as dull as Grandpa's war stories then get a DR, XR or any other four stroke trialie and you too can enjoy years of trouble free yawn.
Yeah, yeah. I can just hear someone out there who's mates XR 250 has had so much work done to it that it'll eat a CR 500 but then you're heading down the path of these new-age 4t motocrosser's.
Optimum power comes at the expense of reliability. Simple. ::)
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It's all ying and yang. If you want to ride something as dull as Grandpa's war stories then get a DR, XR or any other four stroke trialie and you too can enjoy years of trouble free yawn.
Yeah, yeah. I can just hear someone out there who's mates XR 250 has had so much work done to it that it'll eat a CR 500 but then you're heading down the path of these new-age 4t motocrosser's.
Optimum power comes at the expense of reliability. Simple. ::)
Not that simple Ross, there is a degree of luck and a degree of been manipulated and taken advantage of.
But you's pay ya money and ya take ya chances.
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Japanese tax law allows for a one time deducation and physical scrapping at full value , an annual depreciation down to 1 dollar value is not accepted, parts are always held at full cost, so there is a very strong incentive to scrap.
Definitely our business is about selling the product at break even and making the money on after sales. When we plan a product we factor in its yield over its lifecycle. Clearly our friends producing MX bikes across town are doing the same, bet they even figured out that the lifetime yield on a 350 is better than a 450 and lobbied the AMA accordingly.
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I've just had a snooze and now I'm happier. Two things. Firstly I apologize for steering the thread down another track. That was rude and I apologise. Secondly the performance of the NEW era of bikes is as we know outstanding and you have to pay the dollars for ongoing happiness but is it not like a drug of addiction. You have a little taste and then your hooked and you have to pay any price to keep the euphoria going and hey maybe the manufacturers (dealers) have been onto that for a long time.
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Not that simple Ross, there is a degree of luck and a degree of been manipulated and taken advantage of.
Oh so it's a conspiracy now is it Graeme. Big Brother and all that. ::)
It was mentioned on here earlier. Most race bikes are meticulously maintained. Most 'playbikes' have the shit hammered out of them, aren't maintained and then fail. My old CRF was sold at 40 hrs, raced by an A grade 16 yr old for the next 120 hrs and never failed once (even though they're barstards on valves). Not once. Because every monday night it was stripped down to whatever degree it had to be and serviced by the book.
That's the difference.....
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Oh so it's a conspiracy now is it Graeme. Big Brother and all that. ::)
No tin foil hats Ross, just read Marc comments.
There no one cause just the confluences of several causes - just that the manufacturers are in it for profit and are major players and can manipulate the market demand to a fair degree.
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Now THERES a thought... We may be the last generation able to 'restore' our old dirtbikes (or roadbikes). Imagine in 20 years, first finding a YZLX450F that isn't blown up. Then, imagine trying to find the bits to do a bit of a basic tidy up.
I reckon that this scenario will prove to be wide of the mark.
Imagine standing around a new 120Y in 1974, or a DT1 in 1969 - bet you'd quickly decide that it would be impossible to restore/maintain one in 2010 - and the arguments would be very similar to the ones being presented here.
Today's 'specialised technology' is tomorow's mainstream.
Stuff like EFI is a great example - I own one of the first widely available EFI cars (1972 Volvo 164E) and despite the horror stories that were still alive and kicking into the 1990s, the EFI is actually bloody reliable, and new & used parts are still readily available.
The absolute worst case scenario is to buy a cheap aftermarket ECU, modern injectors, etc and fit that. Its not hard, it would increase performance & fuel economy, would not appear out of place, and (with some careful shopping) could easily be done for under $1000 all up (priced a rebuilt SU lately?).
Similarly, look at the number of options to replaced toasted old bike CDIs.
What was once 'exotic' technology, quickly becomes well understood, supported and within reach of Joe Average.
And that's even before you explore the issues Lozza has raised, where fabrication is now easier than ever.
Remember that 15 years ago, a MIG welder was considered exotic. ;)
Similar story for TIG welders, CNC lathes/mills, CD burners, etc etc etc.
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No tin foil hats Ross, just read Marc comments.
??? ::) ???
Sorry. Don't see what that has to do with the reliability of 4T motocrossers?
Oh! The picture of the blown motor. Oh well. We've all got one of them......
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee74/All_things_414/abie1.jpg)
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Spot on MX250 my point exactly. These blokes have had us all on a drip feed for years especially the young blokes. Have you read any of the new dirt bike rags lately. After buying the latest YZCRKTMRZ thingo they then specify a list of all the mods you need to do to make yours a race winning bike and they finish it off with get this an updated graphics kit for another $100 bucks or so and expect you to take them seriously!
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YOU OWN A VOLVO!!!!! WHAT THE?
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Maintainence and reliabilty are not the same thing, even though there's obviously plenty of over-lap.
There's zero doubt that proper maintainence will extend the life of any mechanical thing.
And there's no doubt that insufficent/poor maintainence will increase the chances of something going boom.
But the amount maintainence required to ensure that a modern 4-stroke MX/enduro bike won't blow up, is far beyond what most punters are happy to accept. Similarly, their failure rate is still quite high, even when maintained correctly (like Tony's mate).
Jerry, seen my avatar?
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The magazines sell advertising and they will push the sponsors product shamelessly ( apart from VMX) so there is always a list of 'recomended modifications'.
Companies sell spare parts and bikes and pay people to work out the maximum profit from a combination of both. If you think the 4 strokes are more expensive to run, bet the factories knew that a long time ago, they had MotoGP experience after all, and extensively to have the cheaper lower profit technology banned. I would.
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I agree completely Nathan. Also sorry about the Volvo dig. Do you wear a hat when you drive it? Wots an avatar? Jerry
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No tin foil hats Ross, just read Marc comments.
??? ::) ???
Sorry. Don't see what that has to do with the reliability of 4T motocrossers?
That was referring to the conspiracy theory you referred to.
Oh! The picture of the blown motor. Oh well. We've all got one of them......
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee74/All_things_414/abie1.jpg)[/color]
I didn't think the discussion was about 2T being more or less reliable than 4T - I thought it was about the undue expense of fixing a modern 4T. Your case in point; that's a $1000 fix and the engine will be as good as 'factory fresh'. Do that to a modern 4T and it will be a $4-5000 repair and it still won't be 'factory fresh' (reusing cam chains, not replacing cam sprocket etc or not doing the bottom end).
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Wots an avatar? Jerry
Don't ask; enough to say he keeps it with his etchings ::) :D.
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Imagine standing around a new 120Y in 1974, or a DT1 in 1969 - bet you'd quickly decide that it would be impossible to restore/maintain one in 2010 - and the arguments would be very similar to the ones being presented here.
Probably not a good example ::) - even back then we knew they were simple and would last forever 8).
A better example would the the Fond of Whores (A.K.A. Honda Four). I do remember having old bikies standing around saying, "four Cylinders, OH cam, disc brake - you'll be sorry when you have to work on them". We would look back at them with the blank confused look of youth and say "Work on them? Whatcha mean?" (Actually they were fairly easy to work on - even mugs like me could pull them apart to oversize them etc etc. ;D)
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OK. How many people here can put their right hand in the air and swear on all things sacred that they've had to shell out 4G + for a 4T engine rebuild. What? Nobody. Oh it happened to a mate of yours or a freind of your sister's or....... ::)
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Me SMR Shit a crank, , crank was $1500, piston and rings $700, then theres valve job, cam chain, gasket set, bla bla bla. Brothers 650 berger shit itself.....$3500 easy, mate I raced super motard with, his YZF450 throw a rod out the front,even dented the frame, only thing salvageable was some gears and the clutch . He worked for a Yamaha Dealer and it still cost him over 4 grand, awesome bikes to ride but it comes at a cost!!!
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I swept rode an enduro a couple of years ago where the drain plug got knocked out of a wr250f letting the oil escape, the owner worked in the parts department of the yamaha dealer & wouldn't admit what it cost to replace everything other than the gearbox, clutch & cases as that was all that was salvagable. Next year they were back on a 2stroke
I would have to say have a look at the piston in the cutaway yzf450 to see why they need replacing so often, little more than a washer with enough space to hold the rings & connect to the crank. Not something you can do with a 2stroke due to needing to cover up ports
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Nathan I ride with a father and son who successfully rallied Volvos that looked like yours. Dad at time was 50 and navigated while son of 20 drove (very very well).
People only laughed till the Volvo thrashed them. Can't tell if you avatar picture is from a motorkhana or rally
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A friend of mine rides a modern "Montesa" (Honda) trials bike that uses a modified version of the CRF250 motor
He crashed in a creek and bent the conrod - $4000 to fix
The standard quoted engine repair cost for modern 4 strokes like Yamaha and KTM enduro bikes that see decent mileage is $1 per KM. A mate of mine learned this and decided against the GasGas 4 stroke enduro bike he originally wanted and bought a KTM300 two-stroke (electric start).
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this four stroke rebuild story goes back a whle late 90s.i bought a gpz900r from the mechanic from on two wheels campbelltown about 12 years ago it was a fun bike to ride(kawka in top gun) he needed 3200.00 the fix his euro 4t race bike.thats what i got it for.had ir for 5 years and sold it for 2800.00.it was in top condition as well.
i also belive rebuilding J.A.P. 4t speedway engines is not a chep process.
tt500 yamaha motors with short strok crank and corrillo rods 90mm+ bores will set you back about 4500-5000 dollors,that is total hot rebuild not much yamaha left inside.
dont know the cost of pre1960 british 4ts built to run on methenol but it wont be cheap either,but i am going to find out with my methenol burning ariel 350 ex art senior bike
cheers
jim
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Quote:colj500 I think there could be something the way the bikes are ridden and the maintenance level applied in each case, i.e. the racers look after their bikes while riding and maintain them properly, changing air filters every fuel stop in the reliability trials and fully servicing them after every event, whereas the "play racers" flog them when riding and in general neglect them /ride them until they die, and might only clean the air filter and change the oil when their is nothing better to do.
Good topic & totally agree on the above quote,our son rode CRF250 07 4stroke all last year and we averaged about $300 per ride this includes chain/sprockets etc.This year it will be 2 strokes(let you know how it goes later). :P
I will never understand how a rider doesn't maintain there bike properly, as we have continued to help people all 09/2010 with new bikes needing rebuilds with a dusted motors ,the riders are not taught how to clean a air filter or apply them (money to be made there). !
forgot Id rather pay the $300 than the $3500 ;D
I believe its a throw away society and we as VMX'ers will be are rare or extinct species.
cheers
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I know a 'made' ;) rider who also mentioned the somewhat frightening costs of a running a 4 stroke even at very favourable parts pricing, so much that practice was done on a 2 stroke. We would assume given a full time mechanic it was not a maintenance issue.
Based on what I have seen, bet Bubba and Chad have a fairly full skip of motors by the end of the season.
I mean it is comparable with stories from MotoGP and Superbikes, of riders running out of engines during practice, all good fun if you are not paying for it yourself.
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I think to many young guys are to spoilt with new bikes that mummy and daddy pay for how do you learn to work hard for your possesions when you are given everything and expect the world given to you.
I am much happier knowing that the old bikes in my shed are mine I would prefer to have no bike then have one given to me if I wanted a new bike I would save myself and go get one and I could but don't want to I just like my old bikes.
Who's going to want to do up a WR450f or alike in 20 years time not many guys at all especially when they are having troubles now when they are only a year or two old.
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one given to me if I wanted a new bike I would save myself and go get one and I could but don't want to I just like my old bikes.
Another good thread starter there frosty-how many of you paid for your first own bike?
I reckon people make it hard for themselves as well,they come into vmx/mx guns blazing or is that blazing guns ;D spend the odd 20k and bail out the next year,all too expensive sport. ::)
geez glad we only had one kid ;) ;D
oh well, back to the 2T & 4T debate.
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It has got to be 2 stroke a simple designed motor no valves normally dont blow to bits to often you want something that when you give the throttle a twist it points you skywards which no doubt 4 strokes can do but for how long. :)
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No tin foil hats Ross, just read Marc comments.
??? ::) ???
Sorry. Don't see what that has to do with the reliability of 4T motocrossers?
That was referring to the conspiracy theory you referred to.
Oh! The picture of the blown motor. Oh well. We've all got one of them......
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee74/All_things_414/abie1.jpg)[/color]
I didn't think the discussion was about 2T being more or less reliable than 4T - I thought it was about the undue expense of fixing a modern 4T. Your case in point; that's a $1000 fix and the engine will be as good as 'factory fresh'. Do that to a modern 4T and it will be a $4-5000 repair and it still won't be 'factory fresh' (reusing cam chains, not replacing cam sprocket etc or not doing the bottom end).
Thats what i thought as well MX250...debating about the cost of repairing a blown modern 4 stroke.
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What I'm getting at mate is it's always someone else's bike that we hear these stories about. I doubt half the people making these extravigant claims have even owned one.
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What I'm getting at mate is it's always someone else's bike that we hear these stories about. I doubt half the people making these extravigant claims have even owned one.
You may be surprised.
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/SANY0090.jpg)
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So those are your bikes and you've blown one up and it cost you 4-5G? (I know you love any excuse to show us how much moola you have fella ;))
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So those are your bikes and you've blown one up and it cost you 4-5G? (I know you love any excuse to show us how much moola you have fella ;))
I think I will disregard this one
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2T, 4T, blondes or brunettes? Who really cares? They all cost you money. At least a blown up 4T doesn't talk back. I sell the things new and yes have had the odd one lunch itself for no good reason, but by and large they are easier to ride than 2T's, and are reliable as anything with the proper maintenance. The horror stories are few & far between and just that, not the norm. Someone should start a thread on how good their new generation high tech 4t is, regardless of how much it MAY cost to fix IF it breaks big time. I had a good go on a new 300EXC on the weekend and it was fantastic, until I got onto a new 450 4T. No contest!
Cheers,
K
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one of my customers young bloke races super retards,yzf250,rides it very well and hard,at 30 hrs itold you really should be looking at replacing the piston,yes we will do that but hang on there is a race meeting this weekend-piston let go and it lunched the motor imean head,valves,piton.crank,gearbox,also needed to replace the clutch basket was chewed out 5000.00 later was up and running again we did fit different cams and a boysen hot shot
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OK. How many people here can put their right hand in the air and swear on all things sacred that they've had to shell out 4G + for a 4T engine rebuild
Probably not that many, this being a VMX forum and all! ;)
Tex
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We will know by this time next year how reliable these new 450 really are. All the bike in the 2011 DAKAR rally have to be 450s. I can't recall any reports of major engine problems with the 450 in this year's DAKAR and with the likes of Coma, Deprese et al, all being on the 450 next year we will surely see how long an engine lasts. Even if the factory big boys are having a new engine fitted for each stage, the flogging that they get in one stage if probably far worst than the average ride would inflict on a bike in a year.
CJ
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2T, 4T, blondes or brunettes? Who really cares? They all cost you money. At least a blown up 4T doesn't talk back. I sell the things new and yes have had the odd one lunch itself for no good reason, but by and large they are easier to ride than 2T's, and are reliable as anything with the proper maintenance. The horror stories are few & far between and just that, not the norm. Someone should start a thread on how good their new generation high tech 4t is, regardless of how much it MAY cost to fix IF it breaks big time. I had a good go on a new 300EXC on the weekend and it was fantastic, until I got onto a new 450 4T. No contest!
Cheers,
K
That's from your POV. For the young family man (as described earlier) who has his pride and joy lunch itself for no apparent reason and after good upkeep, it can be a lifestyle/life choices changing/destroying moment.
I note you conceded "The horror stories are few & far between and just that, not the norm." From my experience and what's been said here I would agree. But it is the old 'probability versus severity equation'. When the modern 4T lunch themselves about the only thing of value you are left with is a rolling chassis.
That's the message, that's the lesson. How many punters are aware of that? How many punters are made aware of that? How often are punters misled by advertising and articles that say 'Honda CRF wins two day enduro against the world's best' but doesn't say the engine was changed each day?
A case of buyer be informed, buyer be sceptically, rather than buyer beware (of financial consideration only) - which would be my contribution here ;).
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Here's what happens when you never change the oil in a WR250F the big end comes out to say hello!
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/zorroz/holedwr250.jpg)
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NO problems for a JB Weld meister like yourself ;D
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A case of buyer be informed, buyer be sceptically, rather than buyer beware (of financial consideration only) - which would be my contribution here ;).
Well summed up, the issue is not reliability just awareness of what the latest 4 stroke race bike might cost you if it goes pop, and also how cheap VMX is by comparison. $3500 gets you a lot of VMX bling by comparison.
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I have decided this year to go back to the 2 smoker modern, the 4 banger was doing my head in with the engine braking on the jumps and the way you have to come in full power in corners to get an exit. BAck that up with rediculous maintience schedules and parts its just a Factory gold mine for consumables. Like and oil filter every 5 hours ?? wtf.
MEh its on Ebay if anyone wants my 4 banger.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180467408436&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT
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It's the avergae punter cost's we are talking here,not competitors race bike as we all know they are maintained better ie silly money thrown at it including the ever important sticker kit.
I reckon if my WR450 threw a leg out of bed and destroyed top and bottom end....i pretty sure it "may" end up as a parts bike.
This is a VMX site and yes all you will hear is stories about arthur and martha's bike......but if you jump on thumpertalk.com....and read what is going on everyday......there are a few asking the question...."i am thinking about buying a 2 stroke again,i had a ride and had a ball,it was very light and so on...
Anyway.....2 Vs 4 strokes can only be answered when you have to pay for that next major rebuild.
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Unfortunately there's little choice for someone looking for a weekend trail bike with decent suspension, electric start and a solid low maintenance engine except for the DRZ/KLX clone bikes of a couple of years ago or perhaps a Euro 2 stroke. What do you guys suggest?
XR650R........Yeah I know it's not lecy start but they are a great,bulletproof,low maintanence allrounder.I use mine for everything from single track to multiple day rides.......mainly around Dargo and the VIC high country.Very versatile bike.......I"ll never sell it..... ;)
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XR650R and 400s were awesome unbreakable bits of gear that really got the job done. DRZ400 was also same era. I guess the makers can't win, when they build soft bikes everyone is hotting them up, when they build hot ones everyone is bitching. ;D
The CRF450X is probably a good thing as Honda changed the valves and softened the cam timing, but finally the motors are pretty light and built light compared to the more solid lumps that were in the XR650/400/
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Thats the reason for the difference between a xr & crf, the xr has a lot more metal to move around which limits power so the state of tune is lower. Never seen the piston in a xr or drz but i'm guessing there will be more skirt on them
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(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/4strokeposter.jpg)
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Thats the reason for the difference between a xr & crf, the xr has a lot more metal to move around which limits power so the state of tune is lower. Never seen the piston in a xr or drz but i'm guessing there will be more skirt on them
Surprisingly, the (virtually non-existant) length of the skirts are rarely the source of the dramas with these bikes - if anything, the pistons are one of the few items that shows signs of being near the end of its life, before going boom.
The real killer is the valves - this is caused by very aggressive cam profiles, and thin valve stems. As a far more knowledgable mate said "These things close their valves with more force than a Holden red motor would with the worst possible valve bounce you could imagine" - he was exaggerating (I think!), but the point is still clear....
Add in 'Australia's super fine dust' and often low quality titanium, and its a wonder they make it out of the dealer's driveway.
The other semi-regular killer seems to be blow big ends. This seems to be a mix of poor maintainence and the fact that the rods are quite highly stressed. Whereas a 2-stroke rod or an old-style 4-stroke rod can be basically expected to last forever (at least until a worn big end bearing damages it), many of the newer stlye 4-stroke rods seem to have a finite fatigue life - so they can break/blow even if the big end bearing is healthy.
(I am happy to defer to greater knowledge/experience on this one).
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The fine particles from the clutch plates do big ends no favours and cause premature wear.KTM use different oil for transmission and engine.The valves are coated in titanium not full titanium as that requires a berilliyum copper valve guide and seat (@$200 each plus fitting). The factories found coatings that would not need the seats/guides, that is why you never lap valves in today.The use of valve saver is recommended a lot these days.
I don't think the roller bearing v's plain bearing makes that much difference, Honda MotoGP engines were quoted as having a 300km service life before being sent back to Japan for a rebuild.You would expect a MotoGP full factory engine to be designed and built 'right' from the outset.Your rebuild on a RC211V would be a fraction more than $3.5k ;D
A 500cc 2T GP bike would use 3 sets of pistons/gaskets/o rings in a weekend, replaced at the end of each day..............at the track by the teams mechanics.
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MotoGP engines each have to last 3 rounds this year. I wonder if they will.
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I think the problem with the modern 4T is that their trying to 2T them to attract 2t riders. They're using 2t bottom ends, short stroking them and making them rev to 13,000 rpm. What do you think will happen?
Unfortunately it makes the bikes suck for 4t riders. I had a WR250F and I had to ride it on redline to get any go out of it. That's not why I ride 4T's. I want low down lugging that a long stroke 4T is all about. They don't make that anymore.
I bought a 2000 KTM520 back in 2001. It's done a lot of K's and has had one top end rebuild that cost $1,300. All my mates ride KTM's and all have had good runs out of them with occasional top end freshen ups all running at around $1,000 - $1,300.
When the KTM 4T EXC'S where first released in 2000 It was stressed by KTM and the magazines that these where high maintanence race bikes and not to be bought by joe average trailrider.
If you want a performing reliable 4T trailbike with good suspension consider a KTM LC4
Firko, the bike for you would be the 96+ ATK with the offset crossover frame. Low seat height, good handling, as light as a modern 4T. Just feel heavier to ride because of the flywheel inertia. You would just have to upgrade the suspension, but a set of later model KTM forks will slip right in.
http://www.bikesales.com.au/all-bikes/private/details.aspx?R=3148852&__sid=126A4AB6195E&__Qpb=true&Cr=0&__Ns=p_RankSort_Int32|1||p_Make_String|0||p_Model_String|0||p_YearMade_Int32|1||p_PriceSort_Decimal|1&keywords=&__N=1432%20604%201430%201429%201428%204294964316&seot=1&__Nne=15&trecs=1&silo=1400
And Frosty, XR600's where notorious for eating choke butterflys. Taking the choke out was part of the pre ride setup back in the day. They're getting cheap now and would be worth snapping up.
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Firko, the bike for you would be the 96+ ATK with the offset crossover frame. Low seat height, good handling, as light as a modern 4T. Just feel heavier to ride because of the flywheel inertia. You would just have to upgrade the suspension, but a set of later model KTM forks will slip right in.
Great minds think alike........I've owned both 406 2 stroke and 506 4 stroke ATKs over the last few years but have sold 'em both before I could get them to Australia. I'm a bit concerned about getting an import registered without ADR certification. I've had a few different opinions but nobody''s given me a definitive answer. I guess I'd get the official answer with a phonecall to the RTA but it hasn't got that far yet.
I've ridden a few ATKs and they're brilliant but I have to question the "low seat height". I love the lugging power of the big Rotax stroker..what a motor! Ditto the forks. The standard Paolis are a bit of a pig to set up but once done they're pretty good. I just sold a pair to a bloke in Bendigo who's putting them in a BSA B50 of all things. Methinks they'll be back on the market again soon. ::).........you've got me thinking again. If I can get one registered, I'd even consider the later ATK250 2 stroke, with electric start. They're as cheap as chips in the USA.
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Funny you should mention the xr600 eating choke butterflys my mates did it a while ago but still wasnt a big $ job to have it fixed.
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Firko, Bert Flood bought in quite a few 406's, 605's and 250LQ's from '94 on. The 406's weren't complied but the 605's and 250's where. Some of the 94 and '95's where plated as 96. 'The 605's came in cross country which had no compliance or dual sport which had compliance. Talk to Dave at BF imports he knows a lot about it. May even be able to still comply them.
The '95 models where very tall. You had to be 6' plus to feel happy on it. One of the negative issues that came up about it. At 6'2" It was tall for me.
But the 96 and on (like the one in the link) had a very low seat height to address this, as they had completely redesigned the frame. Frank White had sold the factory and the new owners tried to boost sales with a new design. ( Frank White has since bought it back.)
I'm not sure what year the Paolis came on board might of been 98 or so. Most of the ones Bert Flood sold had the WP forks and rear shock. But the WP forks where the 40mm ones that I believe don't have any low speed compression dampening. They're OK, but a set of 2000-2004 WP off a KTM would fit straight in. The other issue is the rear shock is pre PDS and as it's a non linkage setup there could be some improvement made there.
Dirtbike magazine tested the 95 ATK in their 600 shootout. They said the rear end skipped around like a lizard on a hot grill and for the money (The ATK was the dearest bike.) They hadn't gelled all the components into a complete package. I bought the bike anyway and found it to be true. The 96 handled a lot better. Oh and the XR600 won the shootout as best bang for your buck. The ATK sold here for $300 more and was way sexier than the XR so I went that way. In hindsight I should of bought the KTM620.
So Firko if you want a registered one, there are quite a few in the country that come up for sale fairly regular.
Frostype I mentioned the choke issue because I read your post.
If you need any ATK info feel free to PM me to save hi jacking this into an ATK thread.
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I've had three new CRF450's since 2003, put over 500 total hours of motocross on them, and never had a valve cover off any of them. I would have gone through ten 2T top ends in the same amount of time.
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I rebuilt my crf. new piston, inlet valves , springs and retainers, main bearings, all seals, brand new stroker crank, gaskets, hour meter for just a little over a $1100. all parts from US ebay.
cant complain!
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Funny thing is I was talking to some old guys last year, yes much older than me ::)
They claimed that they lost interest and became disillusioned with MX when those unreliable and expensive to maintain, high maintenance 2 strokes took over the game :o
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As much as we all hate the modern four strokes (4T. There you go) I'm seriously thinking of parking one of the new-age YZ 450F's next to my 465. What a great set of book-ends for everything else that came in-between..... :P
(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy10/MXMADEIRA/motas%202010/YZ450F-2010-10.jpg)
Brave man.. I tested one and the thing was a missile. I was very happy with my 250F purchase after that!
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FWIW:
A workmate has an 01 KTM380EXC. He bought it a few years back (2005?), and it came with a bunch of receipts from the previous owner - including one bundle for a full engine rebuild (admittedly including a heap of gearbox parts). As it so happens, that bundle totalled just over $3500...
He's just put a new top end on it - cost him ~$1000, by buying bits from the USA.
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I sold my 01 400EXC that had never had the head off in 6 years before I had to spend the dollars. The new owner did the same as Nathans mate and it cost him around $1400. Knowing that, I wish I would have kept it.
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Son knows his bike well and could tell something just wasn't right.
crf250 one stretched valve= new bits, piston and rings all for $650 :P beat the $3500 bill :P
cheers
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The thing that really peave's me is that motocross in the 60-90's covered all walks of life rich and poor and now it's being pushed into the realm of rich only,if their is any justice it'll come around and bite em(manufacturer's,ama)on the bum,thank god the euro's seemed to smell a rat,or seen a rebellion on the horizon and stuck with the two bangers -keep it real ???(and i love ol'skool thumpers as well)
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What bites the manufacturers etc is tracks getting closed due to excessive noise, unfortunately the noise created by thumpers travels a lot further. I remember reading a article in mag from the states a few years ago about practise tracks banning certain blue/white bikes in order to stay open.
No tracks means no sales
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The thing that really peave's me is that motocross covered all walks of life rich and poor and now it's being pushed into the realm of rich only,if their is any justice it'll come around and bite em(manufacturer's,ama)on the bum,thank god the euro's seemed to smell a rat,or seen a rebellion on the horizon and stuck with the two bangers -keep it real ???(and i love ol'skool thumpers as well)
I understand what you are saying and this does happen in some cases, but the $650 would only get you a small amount of pot now days,I used to get the same amount for $20,20 odd years back.My point being best the kids are doing bikes than drugs and alcohol. :)
What bites the manufacturers etc is tracks getting closed due to excessive noise, unfortunately the noise created by thumpers travels a lot further. I remember reading a article in mag from the states a few years ago about practise tracks banning certain blue/white bikes in order to stay open.
No tracks means no sales
Thats the reality of growth of the country,I believe its three tracks closing this year in Qld alone. Unite are Doohan,Bayliss and Crump to save track.
cheers
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I understand what you are saying and this does happen in some cases, but the $650 would only get you a small amount of pot now days,I used to get the same amount for $20,20 odd years back.My point being best the kids are doing bikes than drugs and alcohol. :)
Okkk are we on the same page, the $650 ??? you seem to be one of the lucky one's . sorry but i can't see how that relate's to the jap manufacturers and the ama and if they make it an elitist sport,through making it too expensive for average kids/parents to afford to run the burp fart bog pop clank clank scrap rocketships ;)
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I understand what you are saying and this does happen in some cases, but the $650 would only get you a small amount of pot now days,I used to get the same amount for $20,20 odd years back.My point being best the kids are doing bikes than drugs and alcohol. :)
Okkk are we on the same page, the $650 ??? sorry but i can't see how that relate's to the jap manufacturers and the ama and if they make it an elitist sport,through making it too expensive for average kids/parents to afford to run the burp fart bog pop clank clank rocketships ;)
probably not,but I didn't realize we were talking of elite sport--just club level maintenance and saving a few $3500 on a rebuild. 8)
cheers
modify -spell check :-X
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/02/shocking-four-stroke-costs/
really interesting reading this website...need part two from SpunkyHunky :P
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the hard part isn't club level it's getting to the next level imagine how many kids fell through those cracks because of finance,getting back to the suject i believe if they kept going with(back in early 2000's) 2t development and a level playing field (capacity wise)2t would be head and shoulders above what their running today,no worries,just my opinion i'am sure many others agree ,and anybody can work on them, win win ;D
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part 2 & 3 on cost of four strokes.
http://articles.superhunkyforum.com/4/92
Stay tuned to our site, in that we plan to keep on this track. Coming up: 2 stroke rebuild costs.
http://articles.superhunkyforum.com/4/102
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Apologies HuskiHoons ,too many red sherbets in the last posts.
With the below prices, it also looks like an elite sport :( ,pity some pay packets haven't gone up to match the sports we attend.
cheers
Senior National * 12 month licence $265.00 + $11.00 rider levy
Senior Club * 12 month licence $230.00 + $11.00 rider levy
Senior National * One Event licence $77.00 + $11.00 rider levy
Junior National 12 month licence $240.00 + $11.00 rider levy
Junior Club 12 month licence $215.00 + $11.00 rider levy
Junior/Senior Restricted 12 month licence $175.00 + $11.00 rider levy
One Event Licence $44.00 + $11.00 rider levy
Recreation Licence 12 month licence $85.50 + $11.00 rider levy
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part 2 & 3 on cost of four strokes.
http://articles.superhunkyforum.com/4/92
Stay tuned to our site, in that we plan to keep on this track. Coming up: 2 stroke rebuild costs.
http://articles.superhunkyforum.com/4/102
My favourite part:
Turning and roosting in the widening gyre
The rider cannot hear the camshaft chain;
Things fall apart; the crankshaft cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The oil-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of inexpensive repair is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst mechanics
are full of passionate intensity, and drunk.
When expressed like this Yeats makes perfect sense to me. ;D
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Yeah no worries 247,i like to have a soothing tonic from time to time also ,;D as you'd know the license is the easy part, it all adds up at the end of the year and big maintenace bill's would just topple some people out of the sport,I'am lucky my young bloke learnt to ride on natural terrain,so when he started riding (modern)clubdays on the local track he didn't like the supercross layout(etc) and the $100 day out ,only getting 12-15 laps seat time .He's since swung to vintage/evo(good stuff) and we can get a couple of mate's and cut lap's on our home track's till were all buggered, Like i said iam lucky most people don't have any choice but to travel and so let's hope the big wig's don't price them out of it altogether with formula 1 dirtbikes, that the average punter cant touch ;)
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(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy10/MXMADEIRA/motas%202010/YZ450F-2010-10.jpg)
As much as they were shit canned at the time history will be much more kind to the Cannondale MX for being 10 years ahead of it's time. As this is bike is basicaly a clone of that bike albeit refined with the usual Japanese attention to detail. As all the avante gard aspects of the Cannondale are present here, EFI, electric leg, aluminium twin spar frame, cylinder reversed fuel tank mass centralised etc etc.
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Official figures released by the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries (FCAI) show that 23,211 motorcycles, scooters and all-terrain vehicles were sold in the first quarter of this year – a decrease of 12.2 per cent (3,215 units) over the same period in 2009.
“This has been a slow start to the 2010 sales year with a uniform decline across all categories,” FCAI Chief Executive Andrew McKellar said.
“We have yet to see any turnaround in the marketplace since sales softened some 18 months ago,” he said.
“Despite the overall softness of the market there have been some brands, particularly some premium ones, that have shown improved performance,” Mr McKellar said.
“It’s hoped the next quarter will provide some renewed growth,” he added.
* Road bikes were the most popular segment in the marketplace with 9,692 sales – down 10.6 per cent
* There were 7,419 Off-Road motorcycles sold – down 14.5 per cent
* There were 3,363 ATV sales in the first three months of 2010 – down 11.7 per cent
* and Scooter sales fell 11.7 per cent to record 2,737 units
Yamaha claimed the top position with 4,604 sales, followed by Honda with 4,021 and then Suzuki with 3,074 sales.
Probably all due to the VMX revival. ;D
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....and I started riding one no doubt......
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Yeah no worries 247,i like to have a soothing tonic from time to time also ,;D as you'd know the license is the easy part, it all adds up at the end of the year and big maintenace bill's would just topple some people out of the sport,I'am lucky my young bloke learnt to ride on natural terrain,so when he started riding (modern)clubdays on the local track he didn't like the supercross layout(etc) and the $100 day out ,only getting 12-15 laps seat time .He's since swung to vintage/evo(good stuff) and we can get a couple of mate's and cut lap's on our home track's till were all buggered, Like i said iam lucky most people don't have any choice but to travel and so let's hope the big wig's don't price them out of it altogether with formula 1 dirtbikes, that the average punter cant touch ;)
ok no wine today..and yep agree with you today Huskibul ;D our bank card is getting screwed each time boy child enters an event...and running a 2 stroke 05 yammie.
And that's with only the cost's of
chain
sprocket
etc along with the alfoil pipe-changed it for a new one-a enduro version . :(
Hopefully it will survive a while longer than the last pipe >:(
Reports are in of pure jealousy- that so and so has a much faster 2011 than me :-\ :-\ .Its all about pressure.
Ok had my bitch for the day :)
I take it all back-- after todays win 1200km from home..2nd and $250 prize money :P ;D
cheers
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Hey alison sorry to hear of your woes! sounds like your young bloke,s going well though which make's up for the sacrifices :) i was in the local yammie shop the other day getting a tube for my little daughters peewee,and was checking out the 2011' model YZ-F's 450 (very nice!) and tony the salesman mentioned there as close as dammit to a factory bike ! and i thought yeah that'd be just fine if you were a factory sponsored rider with unlimited parts :D sure would like one in the shed though ,iv'e ridden a few different 06-'07' 450's and there very user freindly!(until rebuild time that is!) cheers
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…the salesman mentioned there as close as dammit to a factory bike!
They have been saying that since Moses was a boy!! ;D
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Silly salesman, what he should be saying is there is no such thing as a factory bike anymore only factory supported bikes hence you are buying the gun shit less a few doohickys and doodads which he could also supply if your wallet agree's ;)
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Yeah mostly anodised bling -bling it's amazing how much faster you can go with it ! ::)
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…there is no such thing as a factory bike anymore
Just because they don't race full works bikes in the US anymore, don't believe they don't exist.
The GPs and Japanese championships do have one off factory bikes. No they don't look that radical [as apposed to the old days] as it is all about evolution not revolution, but they are true one offs…
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…there is no such thing as a factory bike anymore
Just because they don't race full works bikes in the US anymore, don't believe they don't exist.
The GPs and Japanese championships do have one off factory bikes. No they don't look that radical [as apposed to the old days] as it is all about evolution not revolution, but they are true one offs…
So true, not sure how many years they ran EFI bikes in Japan before they released them to the general public which wouldn't be legal in the US
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Yeah no worries 247,i like to have a soothing tonic from time to time also ,;D as you'd know the license is the easy part, it all adds up at the end of the year and big maintenace bill's would just topple some people out of the sport,I'am lucky my young bloke learnt to ride on natural terrain,so when he started riding (modern)clubdays on the local track he didn't like the supercross layout(etc) and the $100 day out ,only getting 12-15 laps seat time .He's since swung to vintage/evo(good stuff) and we can get a couple of mate's and cut lap's on our home track's till were all buggered, Like i said iam lucky most people don't have any choice but to travel and so let's hope the big wig's don't price them out of it altogether with formula 1 dirtbikes, that the average punter cant touch ;)
ok no wine today..and yep agree with you today Huskibul ;D our bank card is getting screwed each time boy child enters an event...and running a 2 stroke 05 yammie.
And that's with only the cost's of
chain
sprocket
etc along with the alfoil pipe-changed it for a new one-a enduro version . :(
Hopefully it will survive a while longer than the last pipe >:(
Reports are in of pure jealousy- that so and so has a much faster 2011 than me :-\ :-\ .Its all about pressure.
Ok had my bitch for the day :)
I take it all back-- after todays win 1200km from home..2nd and $250 prize money :P ;D
cheers
It died again today-second moto-no compression...running too rich,,basic sleve maybe a re-sleve needed-new head--firing too hot..have a look tomorrow :-\ Racing stopped due to rain anyway :P
cheers
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Well thats its another year of MX,had our last one today :P
YZ2fitty took all the holeshots and brought home 2nd place in Open for the first year of senior raceing..
Bike ran like a dream but with every kid comes a bigger bike and the KTM350 has topped the list.Sell all to by the dream. 8)
Next year marks another era with boy child getting his car license.
So with a few trips planned east for vmx and perhaps less mx travelling, we will see less of the good and bad attitudes that mark modern mx.
Long live VMX and the 2 stroke ;D 8)
http://www.motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/2011-KTM-350SXF-MOTOCROSS-TEST-THE-MOST-ANTICPATED-7320.aspx
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Toofasttim has just reminded me of the moden 2 stroke article I read yesterday ,so thought I'd throw it up for a good read from Darren Smart !!
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/vmx247/2stroke.jpg)
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A few years ago I decided to buy a modern bike. I put the question to the forum - 125 2-stroke or 250F. The consensus was the 125. I bought a second hand '05 125 with about 5 hours on it which came with a set of V-Force reeds and a Pro-Circuit pipe and muffler. Now I don't get to ride much, but since then, about 3 years ago, I've put about 30 hours on it. In that time, I've thrown a fresh ring into it and that's it. Also a set of tyres and a chain. This week, I've replaced the piston and rings plus small end and pin. I found a complete kit on eBay - the lot plus all gaskets for $150 to my door. The old piston and ring looked fine and measured up within limits.
I've raced some motocross, grasstrack, done some trailriding and a bunch of play-riding, had a ball on the little zinger, and it's cost me bugger all.
The bike still looks like new and goes like I'd never have believed. I'm happy with my choice.
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I put the question to the forum - 125 2-stroke or 250F. The consensus was the 125.
I'm happy with my choice.
Ahem! OUR choice! ;D
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The mighty 2 stroke can be an expensive repair, just not as "expensive" as a 250F
I'm 110 kg 6'2 and love my little 125, till a couple of weeks ago when a power valve broke and dropped into the cylinder.
If anyone has bought a powervalve for a 2 stroke you'd be aware that they are made of unobtainium. $287 plus nails per valve. Add a piston, gaskets & cyl repair and you aint got much change fron a gorilla.
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If anyone has bought a powervalve for a 2 stroke you'd be aware that they are made of unobtainium. $287 plus nails per valve. Add a piston, gaskets & cyl repair and you aint got much change fron a gorilla.
Are they really needed for the overall average mx rider !! ?
cheers A
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Are they really needed for the overall average mx rider !! ?
cheers A
[/quote]
they are on a 125, but Bahnzy a Gorilla for tragic 2 stroke blow up is just going to warm you up on 4 stroke.
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Are they really needed for the overall average mx rider !! ?
cheers A
Al,
On a late model water-cooled 125/250 the difference between them working and not is substantial. In fact that reason that current 2 strokes, particular the larger capacity engines, are so rideable is due in part to the fitment and correct tuning of the power valves. Obviously head design, carburetion, exhaust etc plays a big part but the power valve is key to all this working. For the KTM range, the adjustable power valve on the 300EXC is a perfect example. The bike can be a arm tearing motocross monster or a sedate trail bike, all by the adjustment of the power valves and associated jetting.
Mark,
Know too well the 250F / 450F saga. I see it day in, day out with kids buying their first 2nd hand motocrosser only to learn a few weeks later that they need greater than the purchase price, just to fix the engine. The other issue with these titanium valved bikes is that there are very few engineers around that can “CORRECTLY” set up the cylinders heads to get the maximum life out of a new set of valves.
It was once described to me that Black Magic is the main ingredient in getting the valve seat angles, valve spring rates and installed tensions etc correct. ;)
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It was once described to me that Black Magic is the main ingredient in getting the valve seat angles, valve spring rates and installed tensions etc correct. ;)
[/quote]
I imagine it is a bit like doing Ducati heads where they are unforgiving if you are not clean and precise.
I can think of $3500 good reasons not to own one ;D
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Al,
The bike can be a arm tearing motocross monster
It's a full MOON-Earth hasnt ended,all is well in this world.Its the big 450 first club day tomorrow with dad flagging ;D The first Open event was placed second..bring on the green (http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/vmx247/moon.jpg)
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When I think Kawasaki I think Bubba.... paint the boy child black he might go a bit faster ;D
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And get him to eat a lot of shrimp. Fried shrimp, potato shrimp,sautéed shrimp, shrimp kebabs, shrimp sandwiches.....