Author Topic: Where is the next breaking point?  (Read 47333 times)

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Offline Tahitian_Red

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Where is the next breaking point?
« on: September 26, 2013, 06:48:31 am »
So there is Pre-85 and Pre-90, what is the next date to make the technology break?  Pre-Aluminum Frame ('97)?  Other than the frame material 2 stroke technology has been asleep at the wheel for a couple of decades. (although you could argue aluminum frames are a step backwards)
The "Factory Novice"
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'74 Suzuki TM100, '75 Bultaco 250 Pursang, '77 Honda XR75, '77 Suzuki RM125B, '77 Yamaha YZ400D, '79 Honda CR250RZ Moto-X Fox Replica, '83 Honda ME480RD Mugen

Offline Davey Crocket

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2013, 07:38:31 am »
Pre 2000.....not much happened to 2 strokes but you had the beginning of the current 4 stroke scene. The 90's had all those wonderful European 4 strokes.....Husky 410/610...Husaberg 400/501/600's....Vertimatti's, VOR's, TM,s, KTM's etc and some wonderful big bore 2 stroke's.....Husky 300/360's....KTM 300/360/380's. The only Jap 4 stroke was the mighty Yamaha YZ400F. Those 400F's are becoming collector item's already.
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Offline Rookie#1

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2013, 07:41:28 am »
Pre 2000.....not much happened to 2 strokes but you had the beginning of the current 4 stroke scene. The 90's had all those wonderful European 4 strokes.....Husky 410/610...Husaberg 400/501/600's....Vertimatti's, VOR's, TM,s, KTM's etc and some wonderful big bore 2 stroke's.....Husky 300/360's....KTM 300/360/380's. The only Jap 4 stroke was the mighty Yamaha YZ400F. Those 400F's are becoming collector item's already.


If you can agree to the significance of these bikes and this era now, what are your thoughts on them being race classes in the near future???
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Offline Davey Crocket

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2013, 08:00:29 am »
I think it will happen but it's a few years away yet.....a lot of people haven't got there head around pre90 yet.
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Offline firko

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2013, 08:21:56 am »
Quote
If you can agree to the significance of these bikes and this era now, what are your thoughts on them being race classes in the near future???
Pre 85 isn't running anything near half of its potential and as Davey says, punters are just starting to get their heads around pre 90 so it would be a swan dive into disaster to introduce (or even consider ) any newer cutoff areas for at least five years. Every time I argue against these new classes I get attacked by the usual antagonists for being an old dinosaur clinging to the pre 75 dream and afraid of change, but the truth is that I have no problem whatsoever with new classes being introduced, my problem is with those classes being introduced too soon. Until the existing classes are hosting full fields in all capacities we need to concentrate on and perfect the divisions we have already. The cancellation of the Post Classic Nats early this year is evidence enough that there are enough problems within the Post Classic era to deal with without adding new fuel to the fire.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 08:30:47 am by firko »
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Offline Bamford#69

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2013, 09:20:15 am »
Hi,
pre 85 will explode in popularity when they change it to age group racing  , there is probably twice as many bikes ,and riders that can be used in pre 85 age group racing ,as compared with Evo,
Nothing was of real importance regarding technology happened probably from water cooling/single shock until the "modern" four strokes arrived.
ps, I need age group racing for pre 85, I have  to get a bike with suspension, maybe pre 85 , it hurts too much on a earlier bike , "I'm trying not to think about  the next breaking point "
 cheers

Offline Tahitian_Red

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2013, 09:32:45 am »
I'm selling off a number of my bikes and once I get down to just a few I would like to buy a (relatively) newer bike that I could ride recreationally and still be able to get back into "Vintage" racing (what ever that will evolve to) at some future date.  So, I'm trying to get a read on what year bike it should be (something in the 90's). 

I should probably just give it up for good and go back to playing golf, but it is hard to walk away totally.  :(

The "Factory Novice"
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'74 Suzuki TM100, '75 Bultaco 250 Pursang, '77 Honda XR75, '77 Suzuki RM125B, '77 Yamaha YZ400D, '79 Honda CR250RZ Moto-X Fox Replica, '83 Honda ME480RD Mugen

Offline Tahitian_Red

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2013, 09:36:37 am »
Hi,
pre 85 will explode in popularity when they change it to age group racing  , there is probably twice as many bikes ,and riders that can be used in pre 85 age group racing ,as compared with Evo,
Nothing was of real importance regarding technology happened probably from water cooling/single shock until the "modern" four strokes arrived.
ps, I need age group racing for pre 85, I have  to get a bike with suspension, maybe pre 85 , it hurts too much on a earlier bike , "I'm trying not to think about  the next breaking point "
 cheers

The 1989 Honda CR's won the war.  How much difference in design between a 2014 KTM 250SX and a 1989 Honda CR250?  Performance wise the KTM has it beat, but really it doesn't look much different in the design systems.

The "Factory Novice"
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'74 Suzuki TM100, '75 Bultaco 250 Pursang, '77 Honda XR75, '77 Suzuki RM125B, '77 Yamaha YZ400D, '79 Honda CR250RZ Moto-X Fox Replica, '83 Honda ME480RD Mugen

Offline Lozza

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2013, 09:41:49 am »
So there is Pre-85 and Pre-90, what is the next date to make the technology break?  Pre-Aluminum Frame ('97)?  Other than the frame material 2 stroke technology has been asleep at the wheel for a couple of decades. (although you could argue aluminum frames are a step backwards)

Two stroke development continued untill 2007 just not by Japan Inc.
Jesus only loves two strokes

Offline firko

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2013, 09:44:45 am »
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  I should probably just give it up for good and go back to playing golf, but it is hard to walk away totally.  :(
Mate, you'll get your mojo back. Your reaction to your health scare is natural and you'd be an idiot if it didn't get you thinking. I went through a similar interest funk when I got sick but slowly and carefully I'm getting my health back in order and will be soon making a bit of a low key racing comeback. I'll be slow but I don't really care because my being back on board my bike is proving to myself that I wasn't going to let a health setback stop me from being involved in something I love. I've never met you Jay but I've picked up a vibe from your posts on here that building the bikes is as important a part as actually racing them...it's therapeutic, good for the soul, so keep working on the bikes, sell off the ones you don't have an attachment to and get yourself healthy again. The attitude will change....trust me on that bit of insight 8).  Golf is boring. My clubs are gathering dust up the back of the garage.
'68 Yamaha DT1 enduro, '69 Yamaha 'DT1 from Hell' '69 DT1'Dunger from Hell, '69 Cheney Yamaha 360, 70 Maico 350 (2 off), '68 Hindall Ducati 250, Hindall RT2MX, Hindall YZ250a , Cycle Factory RT2MX flat tracker, Yamaha 1T250J, Maico 250 trials, '71, Boyd and Stellings TM400, Shell OW72,750 Yamaha

Offline Ktm181

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2013, 10:05:51 am »
So there is Pre-85 and Pre-90, what is the next date to make the technology break?  Pre-Aluminum Frame ('97)?  Other than the frame material 2 stroke technology has been asleep at the wheel for a couple of decades. (although you could argue aluminum frames are a step backwards)
LOL.  just looking at what you currently own Red, lot of nice bikes there mate.  IMO anything from 1994 is good in 2 stroke,maybe even a 2st Husky, BUT a 1994 Ktm 250sx with a 300 kit on it is just SENSATIONAL, especially for us "older" blokes, easy to ride, plenty of parts available, still has a linkage as opposed to PDS , is a bit different and more than affordable over there, for that matter '92 is a excellent sx as well, even the OR models are good for what you want.
This is my thoughts for something decent for "pre 95" not sure if that is relevant to where you are though.

cheers,
Kt.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 10:07:56 am by Ktm181 »

Offline Davey Crocket

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2013, 10:38:57 am »
Red, I'm in a similar sort of boat to you, had a bad accident 5 months ago and probably have another 6 at least till I'm on the  mended side.....I'm a mechanic by trade and am finding it very hard not being able to do things that came so easily to me before. I don't even know if I will ride/race again but in the meantime I'm trying to finish off a couple of bikes that have dragged on for too long. I also have a very trick bike to restore for a guy that will make me push a bit harder. Here's a curveball....why not get a trials bike and do it up/have a play on.....something different and still to do with bikes....if you go cold turkey you will be kicking yourself down the track. If they give you the shits....just cover them up with a few sheets...cheers.   
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Offline John Orchard

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2013, 10:56:27 am »
I think the outline for future cut-off's should be laid-down now, that way enthusiasts can be buying-up bikes, stocking-up parts ready for a good showing in the future.

Not sure if there were much advancements from 90 to 00 so I say Pre 1990 to Pre 2000
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Offline Nathan S

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2013, 11:01:38 am »
Why make it a technology cut-off? Pre-65, Pre-70, Pre-85 and Pre-90 have all used the "every five years" cut off, and it works fine. There was never as big a leap in development of MX bikes as the move to long travel suspension - everything else before and after has been incremental improvement. Even the rapid advances in the early 1980s (water cooling, front discs, linkage rear) didn't make the older bikes as obsolete as long travel did in the mid 70s.

That said, let's look at the main technological advances in the late 80s and through the 90s. I'll focus on the bikes that were reasonably mainstream:

1. Cartridge forks that worked. First introduced by Honda in 1986, mainstream by 1988. Unquestionable improvement.

2. Rear discs. First introduced by Kawasaki, KTM and Maico in 1986, mainstream by 1988. Unquestionable improvement.

3. USD forks. First introduced by KTM in 1983, mainstream by 1989.
Arguably a step backwards until the 43mm versions came out in 1992/3. Arguably not an improvement until 1996 when 45/46mm versions became common.

4. Closed chamber forks. First seen in 1996 RMs (as RWUs), and 97 CRs (as USDs). Didn't become mainstream until mid-00s.
Definite improvement.

5. Competitive four strokes. It could be argued that there was always one or two available (CCM, HL500, Husky510, etc), they only began to be taken seriously in the early 1990s with the Husky TC610 and Husaberg. The 1998 Yamaha YZF400 was the first mainstream 4T to be taken seriously as an MX bike.
Mainstream by the early-mid 00s.

6. Keihin PWK carby. First introduced in the late 80s (88 KXs, I believe).
Definite improvement over the round slides and Mikuni flat slides that preceded it.

7. Keihin PWK with Powerjet. IIRC, they were first introduced in 1998 on the KX250 (possibly '97 CR250?).

8. Carbs with TPS, allowing 3D ignition curves. Don't know the year, but 1998ish.

9. Aluminium frames. First introduced in 1997 on the CR250. Definite step backwards, at least until the early/mid-00s. Mainstream by the mid-00s.

10. Ergos. It's a big one, but hard to define. There's a clear progression toward having the bars further forward, the seat being flatter & thinner, and increasing the distance between the seat and pegs.
This change was most obvious in the 1996 YZs, but it was mostly obvious because the 93~95 YZs had dated ergos when they were released in 1993...
I don't think there's a year/period where you can say that ergos took a significant step toward what current model bikes have.
It is also something that would be very difficult to police.

11. 19" rear wheel. First seen on 1989 YZs, mainstream by 1991 (even if Honda and Husqvarna resisted for a long time).
Definite improvement.

I think that's the main ones - I want to talk about brakes, but it's much the same as ergos, so I won't.
Maybe Honda's HPP exhaust power valve from 1986 CR250 also deserves a mention, but that bike's forks are more significant IMHO.
Maybe also the move to undersquare 250 2T motors and the universal move to 54x54 125 motors is also relevant?


-----------------------

All of that leads me to conclude that Pre-85 should actually be either Pre-86, or a "No cartridge forks, no rear disc" class.
Maybe Pre-90 should be Pre-92?

The next clear technology break would be 1996, 97 or 98 - in 1995, there were no alloy frames, TPS carbs, closed chamber forks, or YZF400s - by 1998, all of those things were offered by at least one of the Jap manufacturers.

Or you could say "sod all that" and simply make the class Pre-95?
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Offline Slakewell

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Re: Where is the next breaking point?
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2013, 12:24:50 pm »
96 Honda was the stand out until the YZF for pre 2000
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