Future VERi bike eligibility?

[NSR]

Unlike MX, 84 was not a stand out year for enduro bikes.  89 was when the enduro bikes really changed.   
If VERi did make their Vinduros Pre90 the events would not change at all.     

The Conondale Vinduro (sorry, Classic Enduro ) Sprint will be again Pre90 and I am sure no one will buy a bike just for it.  They will ride what they have, like or be able to borrow.       

[GMC]

As far as vinduro's I totally agree...keep it simple. One thing that has bothered me a little is the all encompassing pre 85 cutoff. As with my VMX and VDT, I have a leaning towards the older classes so I'd like to see some sort of place for older short travel (pre 75-78) bikes to be used, whether it be separate events for short travel bikes or simplified sections for the simpler bikes.
Has there been much attention given to the older enduro bike? Because vinduro's are non competitive events it probably isn't a priority but because of the pre 85 cutoff I presume that most vinduro punters would err towards the newer and more off-road friendly bikes, I'm just as guilty, my own under (slow) construction Vinduro bike is an IT250H with upgraded 43mm forks and 2ls front brake. I'd love a simpler course to ride my DT1 too but I wouldn't like to ride it on the same course designed for long travel bikes (sound familiar ).

That’s a bit of a furphy, we’re talking about trails here not endlessly whooped out tracks.
Vinduro’s I have ridden so far have suited any age bike, they are not designed for 84 model MXers.

There is often talk about what constitutes a Vinduro bike, personally I believe it should be pre88 but others disagree and majority rules.
I don’t believe though that most people are looking for the latest possible bike to ride.
I know of one 85 KTM500 that gets ridden at some events, he doesn’t choose to ride it because he wants to be the fastest out there or have the most advanced bike, he rides it because he has owned it for at least 2 decades and he has an emotional attachment to it.
Does he have more fun than anyone else? I doubt it as I saw him pushing it back from checkpoint one.



2013 Harrow statistics at hand
By year…
1 x 63
1 x 70
2 x 72
5 x 73
2 x 74
4 x 75
5 x 75
5 x 76
7 x 77
7 x 78
18 x 79
13 x 80
18 x 81
26 x 82
32 x 83
45 x 84 (which will include some 85 models listed as 84)

By brand…
3 x Bultaco
3 x Canam
1 x CZ
1 x DKW
1 x Hodaka
49 x Honda
15 x Husqvarna
2 x Jawa
11 x Kawasaki
7 x KTM
7 x Maico
1 x Montesa
1 x Ossa (thanks Paul)
1 x Rokon
27 x Suzuki
1 x SWM
1 x Triumph
54 x Yamaha
1 x Hybrid


Models…
I can only count 12 MX models (one has owned his since 77)

32 x IT (from 77 to 84 and from 175’s to 490’s)
5 x XT
10  x KDX
17  x PE 
6 x TS
6 x XL
37 x XR
plus others includinga KLX,  2 x TL’s, 2 x CT’s, 4 x DT’s, an ER & 2 x DR & a Matador etc.

Clearly guys don’t choose the latest most advanced bike they can.
My theory is that old enduro riders choose race bikes they owned or wanted to own.
Trail riders choose bikes they can ride all day without giving them any grief ( 7 x XR 200’s for example)
Guys that still also race MX may seek out faster bikes like converted MXers
And a chief organizer may choose a bike that will drown easily or have failing electrics.

[XC83]

Nice info gathering GMC.

Unfortunately this discussion isn't based in logic, as a bike can be legally registered as a vintage bike and still not be eligible under VERi rules. There is no compelling argument to support per-85 thinking, just it's my bat and ball and if you don't like the rules then don't play.

For the record: I would be happy to wait until 2017 to ride my 87 WR in vintage events ( chime in the smart alecs now) just as long as there are logical rules to follow. It's not about me.

GMC I think a skull face mask would be a nice addition to the black ossa

[Nathan S]

I tend to agree with you XC83.

Had a good conversation with CanAm370 yesterday - what he said made sense and was entirely reasonable, but it did occur to me that there's a lot new issues to be addressed when Rego (of any sort) is entered into the mix.

And that there's still lots of impasses with the VMX rules. Bringing those impasses (and their inevitable conflict and agro) to the non-competitive Vinduro world seems like an Entirely Bad Idea to me - the current approach of turning a blind eye to the small number of ineligible bikes has actually served the sport very well.

Remembering that Vinduros are non-competitive, I note that none of the Gold Medal winners at this year's Harrow were riding ineligible bikes.

All of which leads me to conclude that VERi is about to spend an awful lot of time and effort to solve a non-problem - that in a couple of years, it will become obvious that the juice isn't worth the squeeze...

Actually, I will go one further: Does anyone want to put money against the idea that VMX-style eligibility scrutineering at vinduros will do far more harm than good? (Even when sensible, reasonable blokes like Paul K are doing it).

[XC83]

Nathan

You didn't like the idea of GMC wearing a skull mask on the ossa?

I guess I was trying to point out that if the law classifies it as a vintage motorcycle, it's a vintage motorcycle. If the bike is rego'd or not doesnt matter, its the fact it is eligible under the laws of the state. Mx bikes were always in enduros, so i wouldnt think you need to worry about their inclusion.

Whilst ever the rules are based on opinion you will always have arguments, by adopting a law you take the opinions out of the equation.

I think any result achieved at Harrow was based totally on rider ability and determination and nothing really to do with the type of bike that was ridden.

[brucey]

As some one who is restoring my original dream bike TS250X 1986/1987  model to full road rego condition  a vinduro is now out of the question yep can be red plated in vic certainly not a motor cross bike and a generation away from the RMX series etc just a trail bike from the eighties and now

Just a bloke who trail rode alot and certainly didnt compete back in the day this was the one bike i had the cash to buy new but didnt and i was intending to have a go at a vinduro next year but why bother now i certainly have no affection for a earlier bike than my era.

I am of an age where the kids are getting older the house is paid down and im getting back into restoring and riding the things that where of my era mid to late eighties.

Well i might ride down for a look now but join in and have a go  not now i won't  might sound like rotten eggs on my behalf but really why bother
like i say thats my outlook on the matter

Bruce

[odd1]

Harrow is only one event on the calendar not all events will be run by VERi so others can have what ever rules they want and some events will be run entirely on private property so the MX converted bikes are still welcome if they put the lights on

[Maicoman]

Well there we have it. Bruce is a classic example of a fella wanting to get out there and have a go and already has a bad taste in his mouth due to this bullshit pre 85 format. Lets see a TS250X has a front disc, watercooled and it's red, bugger me so has a 84 CR250. If VERi are doing an eligibility list of bikes, it's a waste of time as you'll always have someone whose bike is not on the list or is just different.
  Funny how some up and coming events are already moving with the times. Murphy's Creek Vinduro is pre-90, Bulladellah Vinduro is pre 85ish. Bruce bring your bike to Cookardinia Vinduro in October, you are more than welcome.

[mustanggrahame]

What makes you think an 86 TS250X won't be a legitimate flow on model?
Wait until the rules come out before bagging them.
Cheers, Grahame

[Nathan S]

What makes you think an 86 TS250X won't be a legitimate flow on model?
Wait until the rules come out before bagging them.
Cheers, Grahame

84 model has side exhaust port, no AEC, and single frame down tube.
85+ model has centre exhaust port, AEC, and split frame downtube.

[Maicoman]

What makes you think an 86 TS250X won't be a legitimate flow on model?
Wait until the rules come out before bagging them.
Cheers, Grahame

And what if it's not? Grahame I've been bagging the pre85 rule for years. It's been pre 85 for so long, it's time for a change. From my perspective I want numbers at my event and changes have to be made. I don't want to have to scrutineer every bike that enters and have to tick them off a list. You need just 1 rule nothing else and at the end of the day, as I said the  onus falls on the event organisor.

[mboddy]

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought that Vinduro was pre-85 because at the time it started up pre-85 was the most recent Historic Dirt Bike Era in the MA MoMS manual.
These days Pre-90 is the most recent.

[mustanggrahame]

Thanks Nathan. I'm not very knowledgable on TS's and from a casual glance thought they were all the same.
The pre 85 cutoff does not cause any problems with entry numbers in Victoria. Also with reference to Firko wanting short travel friendly events so he can ride a DT1, come and ride any Vic Vinduro and you will see much less capable bikes than that. I do find it interesting that the Victorian events seem to attract a much wider variety of bike, and era, including a lot more trail bikes instead of just Enduro or motocross.
A line must be drawn in the sand re eligibility. Whatever that line is will cause some complaints. This discussion has been done many times before and will continue.
Obviously any event organiser can draw up their own rules. All the same it would be nice if there was a consensus on this major issue.
I don't agree that someone can bring a bike outside the rules and ride just because their eligible bike is not going. Fix it, borrow another or still come and help out, but don't ride.
Cheers, Grahame
(Personally I have put up the argument for a pre 90 cutoff, but am totally happy to go with what is proposed)

[Nathan S]

Grahame, at least 5% of bikes at Harrow didn't meet the pre-85 cut off - and I am sure it would be closer to 10% if we were to look more carefully.
I wonder how many businesses would chose to turn away 10% of their paying customers... And I also wonder how many other entrants would be lost "because Johnno isn't coming/they can't share fuel costs/it's all too much hassle now"...

The VERi committee will do what they think is right, as is their right. I just hope they've thought it through carefully, and weighed up the ideology vs pragmatism of their decision.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought that Vinduro was pre-85 because at the time it started up pre-85 was the most recent Historic Dirt Bike Era in the MA MoMS manual.
These days Pre-90 is the most recent.

Bingo.

[Curtis]

Im just bummed cause I love my 87 TTg350 and I cant ride it I was on.ly 6 when it was released