are there too many class's in VMX

[Rossvickicampbell]

 

[firko]

ow many class's are enough at national level, and this does not mean club level!

I believe that all classes should be represented at the Nationals in it's current form. The one exception is the almost defunct Pre 1960 class which has never been a success and in reality should be absorbed into the pre 65 class. To allow for all classes to be fitted into the weekend and to allow for the possible reintroduction of capacity age group racing, I'd propose that lesser supported classes be combined and be scored separately. With modern transponder technology this is easily achievable.
Foe example, classes such as the under prescribed pre 65 and pre 70 250 classes, Evo and Pre 85 125 and a number more can not only run together but can produce a degree of parity, thereby presenting a competitive spectacle for onlookers. One problem with the plan is to accommodate the racer who usually races in both combined classes but that will be able to be sorted with some thought. The transponder will be our sports best friend in the future.

would we all rather 15- 20 minute motos, Yes if you ask and not the current 3 lap races.

This is never going to have the perfect answer. Short races (3 lappers) are preferable to enable clubs to get through the program and cater to those of us who are less fit but I personally would like to see 5 lap races for National titles. Perhaps one way of handling it is to have the first two rounds over 3 lap duration and the final round as 5 laps.

age group racing for all competitors, yes if you ask!

I know that a number of folks disagree but I strongly feel that by reintroducing the capacity age group system we'd encourage more riders back into the fold by offering them the opportunity to race against their age peers. This has been bashed around this forum a number of times but I'm absolutely certain that the downturn in entries during the early part of the decade can partly be connected to the removal of capacity age groups. It's been noticeable in my observation that many of those who oppose age groups entered the sport after they were 'dumbed down' and haven't really experienced the system. On the other side of the coin, those who are loudly in favour of age groups have experienced the age group system and understand how it was the one major attraction that other divisions of motorcycle racing didn't offer. It worked extremely well and can work again. Because of the increased number of class races it may be necessary to combine capacity age groups, once again using transponders to score them. Age group classes should only be used in pre '75 and pre '85 125/250/500 to help limit the number of races on the program.

Although the splitting of the Nationals proposal didn't get through this year, I'm fairly sure it'll pass muster next year for possible introduction in 2012 or at the latest 2013. When that happens there will be much more time on both programs to encourage the inclusion of all classes and longer motos. I guess we'll be having this discussion again once that happens.

[Nathan S]

Foe example, classes such as the under prescribed pre 65 and pre 70 250 classes, Evo and Pre 85 125 and a number more can not only run together but can produce a degree of parity, thereby presenting a competitive spectacle for onlookers.

FWIW, there were more pre-70 250 entrants than pre-70 500s at this year's Nationals.
I agree with what you're saying in principle, but we also need to be careful not to shoot ourselves in the foot by assuming that certain classes are always going to be well-subscribed or poorly-subscribed.

What happened this year with the Evo & pre-85 125s was great - neither class quite made chamionship status and so they were combined (rather than bumping them into their matching era 250 races, which was looking likely).

[worms]

please dont go off track guys, this is about a standard that must be set by MA, what really consitutes a race, then we can work forward, are titles worth having even if they hold such a deminished value.

is the way forward, simply have shorter races to fit a programe, NO, where will we be in ten years.

all title races need a defining requirement set by our controlling body, so it's in their hands.

How are MA defining the value of VMX, we will just shove it all in and you make it fit, well no it wont.

I am pushing to make sure the value of the Nationals are maintained and enhanced for future generations.

someone has got to define it, 3 x 15 min, plus 1 lap, rounds for a National Title, then and only then we can start on class's.

Cheers Worms

[firko]

WIW, there were more pre-70 250 entrants than pre-70 500s at this year's Nationals.
I agree with what you're saying in principle, but we also need to be careful not to shoot ourselves in the foot by assuming that certain classes are always going to be well-subscribed or poorly-subscribed.

I knew that Nathan, having being a pre 70 competitor and or entrant since the beginning. I merely used it as an example of classes that could be combined if ever the need arose. I don't get the 'shoot ourselves in the foot' part. Once the club had received the final entries I would assume they'd know which classes were undersubscribed and would then act accordingly.

title races need a defining requirement set by our controlling body, so it's in their hands.

I knew that too Trev but I thought you were asking for ideas? My two rounds of 3 laps and final of 5 laps is an idea that if it was decided to be introduced would have to go through the usual ratification processes.

[worms]

David your off subject, fantastic what is happening at your club, but this convo is about defining a stanard to quantify what a National title is in race standards, simple.

your at the coalface within MA, are you not? so lets work towards creating a standard for future racers.

Cheers Worms

sorry firko, yours is an idea with merit, we just need a defining guideline. what shall it be

I'm just trying to get us away from this lap mentallity, it needs to be a set time frame, 15min plus1 so its a std race whearever you compete

[worms]

I guess, by making a set requirement at National level we can then work out where we need to head for other changes.

I mean, if we split the Nationals, are we still going to get the same old 3 x 3, 2minute lappers, if so that is F--king boring and a waste, it will undervalue our Titles.

this is our starting point for change, what consitutes a race? at a national level!!!!!!!!

I think we need to be at the 15minute plus 1 lap x 3 rounds. it wont matter where the titles are, thats what you get, a race equal to the Title. It has been watered down due to the number of class's, but we have to set a std requirement first.

Cheers Worms

[Nathan S]

I don't get the 'shoot ourselves in the foot' part. Once the club had received the final entries I would assume they'd know which classes were undersubscribed and would then act accordingly.

I thought you were suggesting that those classes be combined permenantly, rather than simply using them as examples of classes that are likely to end up combined at a particular event.

So we're actually in violent agreement.

[worms]

your still off track Nathan, what consitutes a race or what value do we place on a national title race. lets start here first.

there nothing at present stopping someone running an event with 3 x 3, 1min lap races, WOW, that would do more harm than combining class's?

Cheers Worms

[SAABCOMBI]

My feeling on all this is, pre 75 vmx at club level should be left as it is 3 laps for each class, in the classic scramble club we do offer a 10 Laper race. but at a national level each class should be increased to 5 lap races for pre75 national meetings, but there are classes like pre60 should be combined with pre 65., and l feel that there are classes that should be removed and replaced with more appropriate classes to suit. l also feel that the cut off dates need to be looked at too. l would like MA or the commission put out a questionaire for us riders to submit our feeling about cut off dates. pre 90 to pre 80, l think the younger age group could handle 8 laps per class at a national level.

[worms]

it's got to be a time limit, not laps!

we are talking about a National title not retirement home races, you undervalue what we are racing for as soon as you say young or old blokes, its a national Title event so you are going to be the best in the country for that class.

age races for all class's will accomadate the older blokes but dont waterdown a National title race.

Cheers Worms

[bigk]

I reckon I'd enter a national meeting with 15 minute +1 lap races, longer would be better IMO, and I'm just a fat old bald bloke to boot! This may seem harsh, but no way was I going to stand around for 3 days for a few pissy 3 lap races at Broadford and I only live an hour away. Worms is on the right track.
Cheers,
K

[SAABCOMBI]

The Time to complete a 3 lap race is 5 to 6 mins, 15 min races would be about 25 laps. thats too much, sorry  we are not racing for sheep stations. Anyway it would be boring to watch races that long, have you ever be to a modern race meeting and their run 15 or 25 min motos , its boring. and beside this vintage pre 75 we are reliving the days as it was 30 to 35 years ago, l say no to motos. so go and  race moderns if you want that sort of racing.

[worms]

so you have no value to a National title then, it's not about you or me, its a defining requirement that needs to be set for the future of VMX, what worth do we put on a National title, it's got to be a test, it's has to have value or there is no point to it all!
5 to 6 minutes by 3 rnds = 15-18 minutes and your the winner of a National Title, whoopeeeeeee

lets make it 3 rnds of 15min plus 1 lap and your racing for 45-50 minutes for that Title, yeh ha, mate you've earned it!

this would then force the split thats needed to keep our sport alive, i will not travell for 18 minutes of racing, over 2 or 3 days what value is there in that , none.!!!!!!!!!!

[Bamford#69]

Hi,
 Its obvious you dont want to race VMX as it  is ,
you should try another form of racing, it sounds like Veterans ( on Modern bikes ) would be something you would like,
cheers