Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?

[montynut]

Nathan, your responses are becoming less and less reasoned or rational. I have great respect for you as a guy who is a strong club member that competes for the sheer joy of it. The last few responses you have posted show that this discussion is getting to you and do not do you justice. The point that Pre90 and Pre 95 etc are inevitable is, I think, recognised by most people. The issue really is can Pre75 eras (True Vintage in most people’s eyes I think) all the way through to, say, Pre95 coexist at the same meeting?

I do not believe that it is possible. Even at the most recent Heaven meeting there was discussion about including a section of track or excluding it. The vote was to leave that section of the track out (as originally decided by the Committee). The only riders, if my memory is correct, who wanted the extra section included where Pre85 and a couple of Evo riders. These riders accepted the decision with good grace and we got on with the meeting

To try and accommodate Pre70 all the way through to Pre90 or Pre95 on the same track at the same meeting would be very difficult (impossible to my mind) and would leave many riders disappointed. I am not saying this would be an absolute but as an ongoing meeting after meeting arrangement I hope you will agree would be very challenging. In this respect VMX / RMX is vastly different to Vintage / Classic Road Racing or even Dirt Track.

The proposition of altering the track between different eras seems a possible solution but is fraught with danger as riders racing multiple eras could make an error causing serious injury. I have been at a meeting (years ago) that exactly that scenario occurred and resulted in Ambulance journeys for some riders.

The most manageable situation would be to have two clubs or two sub-branches of Heaven. The second option, I believe, has many advantages and would allow one or two ‘super’ meetings each year or other special events. It would hopefully make running meetings easier and increase everyone’s enjoyment and fulfilment from VCPCRMX (Vintage, Classic, Post Classic and Retro MX). Somehow I cannot see VCPCRMX  on the front of a magazine.

[Nathan S]

Congratulations Nathan, you've taken over from my ex sister in law Cynthia's first husband Charlie as the stubbornest, most single minded person I've ever met.

Thank you. Really.

I've watched this discussion previously, repeatedly be derailed by irrelevant and/or incorrect arguments, so this time I made a deliberate decision to dig the heels in and to shoot them down as many times as it takes.

The riders/the tracks:
1. Everyone likes grass track, even young blokes on moderns. Old blokes on moderns hate SX obstacles (witness the near death of the once-booming Over35s & O45s classes at ACTMCC when they put big jumps in).
2. If we continue to sit on our hands, we lose our best opportunity to get the bulk of the interested punters involved.
3. The people who want pre-90 are not 18 year old wankers - we're 35+ year old wankers, who invariably ride other eras of VMX already. Nobody wants to see other classes killed off.

The bikes:
4. Yes, they're newer and better than pre-85s.
5. But don't kid yourself that they're vaguely competitive with moderns (given equal riders and not deliberately skewed conditions).
6. They don't look like moderns, beyond the most superficial level.
7. Eligibility Scrutineers will have a new era of bikes to learn about, but they will learn.

The sport:
8. You don't have to ride a pre-90 just because the class is offered.
9. Race programmes will be more difficult, but not impossible.
10. Anybody who walks away from VMX because they don't like the inclusion of an era they're not interested in, is just looking for an excuse.
11. It will attract new members - probably not dozens, but some.
12. If people want to see the earlier eras grow, then they can help make it happen - simply off-loading that responsibility to the pre-90 advocates is both unrealistic and doomed to failure.
13. Everyone agrees that newer eras are inevitable.
14. Yes, there is active movement toward getting pre-90 up and running in NSW. Its not just forum talk.

Can I be any clearer?
More than happy to discuss each point in detail if anyone is unconvinced. I think I've shown that I've got plenty of energy left for this topic...

Are there any objections that I haven't mentioned, then let's hear 'em.

[odd1]

Well done Nathan couldn,t agree more you.

[TM BILL]

3. The people who want pre-90 are not 18 year old wankers - we're 35+ year old wankers, who invariably ride other eras of VMX already. Nobody wants to see other classes killed off.

.

Can I be any clearer?
More than happy to discuss each point in detail if anyone is unconvinced. I think I've shown that I've got plenty of energy left for this topic...

Are there any objections that I haven't mentioned, then let's hear 'em.

Nathan where do you propose to run these new classes ? above you state that nobody wants to see other classes killed off, so where in a already crowded race day do your new classes fit in ?

What is so wrong with starting a breakaway movment to suit your new eras  ? You obviously have a passion for these eras so why not put that to good use with your new movment.

Inspite of how you can come across on here i know your alright , you have it all worked out in your head so go for it.

However i think you are deluded though in wanting to run 1990 onward bikes on grass tracks  the tracks in those later eras evolved with the bikes  , big tabletops doubles and rythum sections are what those bikes were designed to race on  not golf courses, and that is what your punters will want.

[firko]

Nathan first thing. You need to walk away from this....right now. You're letting it eat you up. Sitting at a computer at 1.13am isn't healthy. (Unless you were up tending to little Emily, which if that is the case, why aren't you doing it?)

Second thing...Once again, you've articulated your thoughts on pre 90 very well but once again you've failed to see anything of merit in opposition argument, absorbed to the eyeballs that you're right and that everyone else's opinion is "irrelevant,and/or incorrect". I could break down each point you've made one by one and give you a relevant counter opinion but I'm got more important things to do this morning than argue with somebody who has no idea on the principles of debate. You've once again listed your reasons without responding in any way to opposition argument with anything but your opinion. Your points are just as irrelevant and/or incorrect as everyone elses. It's all opinion, not fact.

I'll repeat my challenge to you. Twenty three years ago I turned a 10 schooner pub conversation into a sport that's become a very successful part of mainstream Aussie motorcycling. I had no experience in such matters but I believed in the vintage thing so much, I lobbied the right people and before long the stone was rolling.

If you're so passionate about the pre 90/95 racing, Why not follow your convictions as I did 23 years ago and start a new division of the sport. If you need a hand with the logistics, I'm more than happy to help guide you through the process. Just ask. It's either time to put up or remain a cyber guru.

[odd1]

Sorry Bill I have to disagree as people age they have morgages and commitments to meet there will always be a group of people who will want smoother tracks and I,m not talking golf courses, as you age it gets harder to get up on Monday to go to work. I see this in my friends that are 10 to 15 years younger than me and I go riding with.They have all had rides on my EVO bikes and think they are ok  but there next comment is I'd like 90 cr250/500 or TC 450/610 These guys are out there and they will enter the sport at some stage. At the moment we can write the rules if we are smart, or we can stick our heads in the sand and hope it goes away.

[whitey 43]

Im not 100% sure if the term 'retro' will catch on especially when it was brought up the other week that many guys call old non MX dirt bikes such as KDX/IT/PE 'VMX' bikes. The term, VMX or Vintage is pretty well imbedded in peoples minds for any 1980's and older bikes and a lot of people call 85-89 bikes vintage or VMX bikes and im not sure you can convince people to start calling them 'RMX bikes'. You could probably get that term to be used for pre 95 because that hasnt even started yet but i dont know if it will catch on for pre 90 now that in some states its already a class been run under the 'VMX' banner and there has been the odd pre 90 bike in 'VMX' mag and at 'VMX' type events such as CD and HBBB, when many already consider them VMX bikes but just of a later era to the older VMX classes. i think if we wanted the term RMX to be used for pre 90 that it may be a little too late for that now and should have been decided on before pre 90 started? Anyway just my thoughts.

There is no pre 90 in the rulebook . It lives in peoples heads that have an old donger , short arms with deep pockets and are scared of  being beaten by more moderns than theirs .

I believe that most pre 90s guys have the same passion you have wasp, your train of thought is what will kill your clubs / divisons in the long run. Please reply with something more constructive...If you can

[All Things 414]

Nathan, Nathan, Nathan...... You're chuckin' the biggest hissy-fit that I've seen and it's grouse to watch. 

The points I'm trying to push are:
a. A competitive rider on a competitive post '85 or Evo bike (not a clunker) will run a decent, strong race against his peers on later model machinery. I'm not saying he's going to win any Aussie titles but he'll hold his own.

b. It would be embarrassing to watch these bikes competing on anything other than real motocross tracks or very technical natural terrain ones. Suspension had come a long way by 1985 and all but the poorest examples of these bikes should be able to handle these tracks.

I get the feeling that you're really wound that there isn't a class out there that you're comfortable with. Maybe the 'Over 36's, under 39's, ride around the McDonalds car park on 12 inches of suspension, post-natal depression' World titles will come along one day but I've seen no sign of it lately.....

So I reckon' that leaves you with two options....
a. If you really must compete in motocross of any form, sell all but one of the fourty clunkers you own be it a Pre 75, Evo, Pre 85/90 bike. Spend your new wealth on setting that one bike up so as it handles as well and goes as best it possibly can.
Buy some training DVD's, books or get some training. You'll be amazed at how much better you'll ride, how much faster you'll go and you might even start to enjoy those nasty old motocross tracks with their 'bumpy bits' and their 'rutty bits'.
Or b.
Enjoy your collection of bikes. Sit amongst them and drink in the beauty of their quirky traits and shapes.

But for the life of us....

Stop the eternal whining that there just isn't a class of racing that you like........

[whitey 43]

Nathan
You certainly have opened a can of worms, having been a member of Heaven for a number of years and knowing a number of the people that have responsed to your requests for pre90/95, you could do what I plan, as of next year, this will get you a ride on your pre 90 bike and still ride/race with the same club.
As Heaven has meetings that go over 2 days, with the first day generally being practice. Which is a great idea, but with the extra day's riding the wear and tear was starting to show on my bikes. Next year I will take my 1987 CR125 and use it as a practice bike, then on race day, ride my pre 85 bikes. Problem solved.

Wow! Logic...Its A wonderful thing...

[TM BILL]

Why are you PRO pre 90 on supporters so scared to go it alone   if as you keep telling us there is such passion and legions of 30+ riders out there chomping at the bit to get these classes off the ground then start your own club .

I still believe its the minority of your legions who want to ride on grass tracks , most would cheerfully ride on any track as long as somone else makes it happen for them

The old morgage /commitment deal doesn't hold water (47yrs , 4 kids, missus, ex missus, morgage etc etc) but i still go ride vintage and modern tracks on pre 75 bikes and i love it  

As somone who is totaly against pre 90 onward being aligned with VMX (not anti any era just dont try and sneek under the VMX heading )i take consulation that it will only ever be banded about on forums because theres movers and then theres typist  

[Davey Crocket]

Could somebody living close to Nathan please look up the Salvation Army's phone number and pass it on or better still get them to go around to his house and help him before he does something stupid....that's if it's not too late already. The boy needs some loving......maybe it was his childhood....he definately needs some sleep...you gotta watch over these young fellas.....we have to get his demons out....say goodbye to evil Nathan....could he be related to evil Rudy?

[VMX247]

quote:
What is so wrong with starting a breakaway movment to suit your new eras  ?

It takes 110% commitement to start a new era club..
atttending an event for promotional work for the newly created club leaves you sitting/standing watching other eras going around a track. 
Time & Calender dates to be sorted for new members and not clash with other era ride dates..
Not being able to ride with your old mates  :'(
the list is endless.
Why Nathan wont you start a new era club ??
cheers Alison

[worms]

will people stop using the phrase" a can of worms"  I'm a little bit touchy about that!

now back to the yawn fest,

I have an idea, start a new club with your passion and it will add to the sport, i'm dead sure thats what everybody is saying!!!!!!!!

Cheers Worms

[AjayVMX]

Wow, is this still going on?   

Disclaimer:  I am not a member of Heaven, mainly because I am no longer allowed (medically) to ride an MX bike.  I was planning to join that club when I was still riding and getting involved in VMX.  As someone who is interested in the sport and gets exposed to all forms of it, including international racing, I feel I have a different perspective that may be worth at least airing.

First point: The other states (other than NSW) have now proved that the separation of the Vintage bikes from EVO and later has worked - it has maintained the interest in the Vintage scene (as it should be) and allowed EVO, pre 85 AND pre 90 to develop.  WIN/WIN.

My opinion therefore is that Heaven needs to focus back on the Vintage classes (i.e. pre 78 in my definition) and not try to dilute itself into a "keep everyone happy" at its race days. 

The solution is simple.  Have separate race days for Vintage and for Classics.  This would allow both sectors of the sport to be happy campers.  The Vintage races could be run on 100% Vintage friendly tracks and I'm guessing that many would be much more interested in racing a Vintage bike if that were the case.  The Classic races could be run on regualr MX tracks, which suit the longer travel suspension.

So instead of having 8 race days in a year trying to please everyone and failing to do so, why not have 4 Vintage days and 4 Classic days?

Just a thought... 

[shoey]

Lets regurgitate this post



Who going to shake it up , get up and have a  go to get this pre-90 show on the road.

No more talking about it, the good ,the bad and the ugly , not argue the point about whats  vintage and whats not,  actually get it together and have a meeting , not a talk fest meeting , "a ride meeting".

You just need to go to a club that has fair and open constitution , put up your idea , do a little bit of work to get the meeting going.

Why are people so hooked on "Heaven" doing it , the pre-90 thing. No good bagging them if they dont what to do it.

They are hard pressed getting though the programmes they have , and more to the point why should the people that volenteer their time to run the club have to put in even more time.

Have a little business plan and couple of sponsors , because based on the ideas , i have seen to date " NONE " i wouldnt back it.

You and your organising comittee mates probably wont get to ride because you will be busy getting it together to make it a real success , so the club you choose will make a profit for their efforts , but you wont mind becuase your so keen to get it going that doesnt matter.

I have little interest in riding that era of moto X bikes but i would like to watch them go round.

Basically , if you want it , actually do something about it ,because all this aimless chatter does your cause no good