Pre 90/Pre 95 in Classic MX. An idea whose time has come?

[Nathan S]

With Pre85 and Evo its easy, every one knows bike eligibility by just looking at the bike.

This is because we have experience with the older stuff. It won't take long to learn the differences in the newer era stuff. For example, after some research, I can now identify the differences between a 99 and 00 RM125 (would take about three seconds), despite the '00 model being a very minor revision.

Don't forget that in the early days of VMX, people were riding illegal bikes and getting away with it, because we didn't know how to identify the later model parts, or we didn't understand the differences.

I am only new to Heaven club this year, but I bought bikes to suit classes they run. Not a more modern bike, and hope to change rules. It is still pretty easy to get a Evo or Pre85 bike.

FWIW, I've got pre-70, pre-75, pre-78, and Evo race bikes. Truth be known, I prefer the racing in the pre-78 and older eras - but I am passionate about pre-90 because that's my era.
If/when Pre-90 gets up, I'll still take my older bikes out and race as hard as I can - but I'll also take my pre-90s and wobble around the back of the field with a big smile on my face, pretending that its 1989 and I'm 15 again.

[firko]

At the risk of jumping into Pirana infested waters, I'll make one last comment on this subject. This morning a relevant issue came to mind while going through some early VMX photos while researching a project and noticing the variety of bikes on the grids.

One of the more attractive facets of the first wave of VMX during the nineties was the large number of manufacturers and their different models that competed. To see long extinct brands such as Maico, Bultaco, CZ, OSSA, Montesa, BSA and many more in action was one of the defining attractions of VMX. Unfortunately as our sport has moved on and embraced both EVO and more importantly Pre '85, the gene pool of eligible bikes diminished to the point that with the exception of Husky and Maico, the sport has become a four horse race between the Japanese biggies. With Pre 90 and Pre 95 coming into the mix, the variety of available race bikes will diminish even more.

The seventies were arguably the most interesting decade in our sports history because of the manufacturers delving into unknown waters in a quest to try and discover the technological edge over their opposition. The end result of the experimentation during that period was the hugely differing engineering concepts presented by each and every manufacturer. In 1974 alone there were at least fourteen different manufacturers in the 250 class alone, most of them very different in engineering principle and visual impact from each other. By 1990 however, the engineering advances had been pretty much leveled out and the big four were producing bikes that in all honesty weren't all that different in appearance and design to each other when compared to the diversity that existed in 1974. Choosing between green, red, yellow or white was the main dilemna, not trying to choose a different engine or suspension configuration. The brand of your riding gear often became a bigger issue.

With each new cuttoff that's introduced, the variety and colour that made the pre '75 era (and to a lesser degree Evo) so attractive to both spectators and racers diminishes more and more. It's worth noting that the amazing success that the new vintage movement achieved right from the get go in 1988 was that it offered an alternative to the 'modern' cookie cutter bikes that constituted the motocross market. It's ironic that it's these very bikes are now being promoted as the 'saviour' of VMX. 

[Graeme M]

Let me go on the record again and say that I am not suggesting pre 90 or 95 is the 'saviour' of vintage MX. I agree completely with what you say Firko. And I was never in any way suggesting that Vintage MX as we know it now, especially the Pre 75 stuff, is not about celebrating one of the truly colourful periods in the history of motocross.

But we would be silly to think that the 30-50 year olds of the next decade will necessarily agree with us.

There will always be a desire by old guys to relive their youth. I didn't understand my 40 year old mates interest in crappy old Brit singles back in 1980. I thought he was just a slightly loopy old codger. Nathan is only in his 30s hence his interest in racing what to us look like more of the same. But whatever we think, to him doing so is about recreating the sights and sounds and feelings of HIS youth.

That said, I guess the point being made by everyone is that HIS youth, and that of say a guy who turns 40 in 2017, is NOT Vintage MX. So, let's just leave Vintage as it is and forget the future.

Roll on Retro MX, hmmm?

[firko]

I wasn't having a go at you, Nathan or anyone in particular Graeme...I was just raising a point that seems to have been overlooked in the heat of discussion.I also thought that the irony that the very bikes that VMX was created to offer an alternative to are now being touted as being needed to keep VMX afloat was funny.

It's inevitable that Pre 90/95/00 racing ad infinitum will occur into the future. I've never said that it was a bad idea nor that it shoudn't happen. I just maintain that we should fix what we've got first before creating yet another undersubscribed class.
However,Retro MX run under a different parent MA classification encompassing everything post pre 85 is in my mind a good idea. By leaving the 'proper vintage' VMX to cover pre 60-Evo and all in between to it's own devices I reckon the two would survive quite well as separate divisions. Of course for the post 85 Retro thing to work, the talkers would have to become doers or it all amounts to a hill of cow shit. It's the same with proper VMX, the problems that are plaguing the division need to be addressed or it too will eventually fade off into the sunset. The future success of both RMX and VMX is fully dependent on people going the hard yards to make sure their respective passions are promoted and managed properly and vigorously. I've recently been approached to take a more proactive role in getting the pre 75 and older classes back on the track and as soon as a couple of people depart positions of power I'll be getting much more involved. (Not the commission so I'm not planning on stealing your job Dave ).

For pre 90/95 to work someone with vision who's prepared to go the hard yards for more than three weeks needs to put his hand up and take control. I suspect there's a lot more cyber wonder boys than actual doers so it'll be interesting to see who's prepared to get involved enough to make it happen.

[Graeme M]

RMX as a separate division may well be the answer, I reckon. So, just gotta get someone to do it eh?

By the way, are there problems plaguing Pre 75 anywhere other than NSW? WA is good, SA looks OK from the little I've seen, Vic is well covered and Qld looks good with BMCC. So, that leaves NSW? The big difference I see is that the other states run their Pre 75 on much more sympathetic tracks.

Personally, I'd like to see a Pre 78 only club in NSW that runs 'scrambles' on natural terrain, plus a few dirt track meets as well.

[Nathan S]

With Pre 90 and Pre 95 coming into the mix, the variety of available race bikes will diminish even more.

I'd actually say that pre-85 is the low point, in that regard.
The few pre-85 Maicos & KTMs aren't all that great, while there's simply very examples of the very few models of pre-85 (and non-Evo) Huskies around (and they're really nothing to get excited over, as serious race bikes).

In the second half of the 80s, the KTMs and Huskies got more competitive against the Jap bikes.

As you enter the 1990s, more brands start coming on line (Husaberg, GasGas, TM & ATK were all imported pre-1995, albeit in limited numbers), and the two bigger Euros started getting more serious about MX.
Into the second half of the 1990s, it gets better again with three of the four previously mentioned brands becoming relatively mainstream, and stuff like VOR/Vertamati, Maico and Cannondale also existing (albeit on the very fringes).
We're certainly spoiled for choice of new bikes ATM - add BMW, Beta, Aprillia, Sherco and the emergence of some reasonable Chinese brands. Will make pre-2010 racing interesting in 2025!

NB: This is not intended to be a part of the debate, just some observations.

[Evil Rudy]

Grassy knoll, grassy knoll.

Pre 90 for CD8 and beyond?

ER

[LWC82PE]

Im not 100% sure if the term 'retro' will catch on especially when it was brought up the other week that many guys call old non MX dirt bikes such as KDX/IT/PE 'VMX' bikes. The term, VMX or Vintage is pretty well imbedded in peoples minds for any 1980's and older bikes and a lot of people call 85-89 bikes vintage or VMX bikes and im not sure you can convince people to start calling them 'RMX bikes'. You could probably get that term to be used for pre 95 because that hasnt even started yet but i dont know if it will catch on for pre 90 now that in some states its already a class been run under the 'VMX' banner and there has been the odd pre 90 bike in 'VMX' mag and at 'VMX' type events such as CD and HBBB, when many already consider them VMX bikes but just of a later era to the older VMX classes. i think if we wanted the term RMX to be used for pre 90 that it may be a little too late for that now and should have been decided on before pre 90 started? Anyway just my thoughts.

[vmx42]

Grassy knoll, grassy knoll.

Pre 90 for CD8 and beyond?

ER

Q: What has any of this got to do with Classic Dirt?

A: Absolutely none!!!! So kindly leave it that way. 

[XR]

scared of  being beaten by more moderns than theirs

Pot calling the kettle black

[LWC82PE]

I thought pre 90 is being run in VIC or NSW already? I think this has been brought up before but theres no way that the average guy on a pre 90 bike would be competitive in moderns. Similarities are discs, water cooling, USD forks and linkage suspension but they are far off from being a 'modern' or competitive in moderns.

[suzuki43]

Grassy knoll, grassy knoll.

Pre 90 for CD8 and beyond?

ER

Oh crap,Wheres the Zeebrugee film when we need it???

[firko]

It lives in peoples heads that have an old donger

I've got an old donger. It needs a bit of maintenance but it's brought me a lot of pleasure over the years.

[All Things 414]

I think this has been brought up before but theres no way that the average guy on a pre 90 bike would be competitive in moderns. Similarities are discs, water cooling, USD forks and linkage suspension but they are far off from being a 'modern' or competitive in moderns.

I really believe that this is just a mind set. Go and watch some footage of some mid-nineties bikes being ridden by decent riders through some whoops, off big jumps or around a knarly motocross track. They are quick.

An average guy on a mid nineties bike (set up properly for that rider) will run with a field of other average riders on moderns if he doesn't carry the mind set of "oh this lorry's twenty years old, I don't stand a chance..."

[matcho mick]

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