EVOLUTION/OEM - What Is Your Interpretation?

[Maico31]

Magoo i think using '83 CR forks is within the boundaries of Evo because they are pretty much the same as '81 YZ465 forks, both are 43mm just different brands, KYB and Showa. Fitting YZ465 forks and front wheel to your Honda would make it 100% legal but they are hard to come by.

[BAHNZY]

I specifically asked 2 owners, one at CD4 and one at a VIPER meeting why they elected to use large diamater Yamaha forks with twin leading shoe front ends in their bikes, one being a 79 RM400 and the other being a 79 YZ250. Their answer was that the components came from a EVOLUTION bike, albiet a later model. As they beleived that there 1979 RM400 falls into the same EVOLUTION Group as a YZ465,  they thought it o/k to run the forks off that bike. The problem that i have is that the forks were never commercially avaliable to purchase in 1979, they were in 1981, some 2 years later but not when the bike was originally manafactured.

The one thing that i have garnered from the hours on this bloody computer researching websites around the world in relation to EVOLUTION MX bikes is that term EVOLUTION essentally relates to a start date (MY - Model Year) of 1978 and taperes off in 1981/2. Understanding that there are some anomilies in this eg: 1983 Husky400 the time period seems to be specific to about 4-5 MY releases. To address this huge development growth that occured during this time, some parts of the world have seen fit to seperate the bikes into EVO 1 & 2. Group 1 targets bikes from 1978 to 1980 and Group 2 1980 to 1982. Reading between the lines this appears to have been done to keep the last of the non-linkage rear suspension YZ's, Maico's & some of the other Euro bikes in their own categrory as they were far superior to the Pre80 Bikes.

[magoo]

I agree with you Firko but the modified forks you talk about are on a Pre '85 bike, I wouldn't run them on the Evo bike, I just like winding you up.
As for the swingarm and forks, there is a very good reason I used those at the time. They cost me about $300 compared to the $3,000-$4,000 the Fox equivalents would have cost me, I just simply didn't have enough money. The whole point I'm trying to make is who is going to judge what defines spirit of the era.
As for being silly, I resemble that comment. A quiet little Chardie on the 2nd would be most enjoyable, I'm in.

[magoo]

Another thing about this thread, it is bringing on some really good, constructive debate which is a terriffic thing.

[Maico31]

Bahnsy you're getting picky now. If 43mm YZ forks come from an Evolution era bike then you can use them on another Evolution model bike. There is no specific cutoff year to Evo. The rules are not that comlicated. I tend to agree with you Magoo, your $300 suspension parts do the same job as the expensive Fox's etc without being any better or an unfair advantage.

[Nathan S]

Hi Nathan,
18.7.7.1 a,2007 GCR's
I'll have a crowny.

Happy to buy you a Crowny Noel, but you don't get it for that one...

The rules state that all bike must have a maximum of 7" front, and 4" rear suspension travel. The pre-78 rules say that there's a limit of 9" F & R, but they don't over-ride or rescind the 7 & 4 rule.
Therefore, according to the rules, pre-78 bikes can't have more than 7/4" of travel.

Yes, we all know what is meant, but I'm talking about what is printed in the manual.



I have no problem with the intent of the rules, but they are inviting someone to drive a fleet of trucks through the loopholes.

[firko]

You've lost me on your logic Nathan. If it says 9" for pre 78 then 9" it is. What does it have to do with pre 75 limits?

[BAHNZY]

Maico31,
I'm don't think that i am getting picky or at least i hope i'm not. 
Lest say i have a RM400C fitted with the standard suspension (front & rear) that has been rebuilt and sorted. I also have a set of 43mm front forks with twin leading brakes matched to a set of piggy back Ohlins fromn a 1981/2 Husky, these also have been sorted. By sorted i mean that the springs have been matched to my weight and the hydraulic parts of the units have been refurbished.

Without a doubt i will set a faster lap time on the 43mm units and Ohlins than i will on the standard suspension. To say that a $300 suspension package will do the same job as the expensive Fox's etc without being any better or providing an unfair advantage is not accurate.

I think of it like this. If a rider was competing at an International or National level around 1978/79 and they found themselves running in the Top 5, podiuming now and then but just cant seem to crack it for a race win was offered a suspension package including a set of 43mm front forks with twin leading brakes along with a set of piggy back Ohlins do you think that it would make a difference?

[DJRacing]

The "Spirit of the Era" is jugded by you, yourself. And if you feel happy running "what ever" then do it, but remember if you couldnt get that part or modification back in the era, then is that the "spirit".  ??

[Nathan S]

You've lost me on your logic Nathan. If it says 9" for pre 78 then 9" it is. What does it have to do with pre 75 limits?

Because the pre-75 rules are THE vintage rules, and the other classes are added on to them without giving priority to either set of rules.

It's like telling a school kid "You must always obey your mother, and you must always obey your father".
If mum says you've gotta be home by 7pm and dad says you've gotta be home by 8pm, then 7pm it is.

There are a number of ways to fix this part of the VMX rules. I'd prefer to see the common-to-all-eras rules put into one section, with the era-specific rules each being a sub-section.

If someone wants to kick up a fuss at an event over this, as it is currently written (and I promise that it won't be me!), they'd be within their rights to do so. They'd also be a pratt, but that's not the point...
Well written rules minimise/eliminate the opportunities for the wankers to indulge. And would reduce the need for threads like this one...




 

[Lozza]

I think your misunderstanding what I am trying to get across firko.Mainly the reason why the old Manx's are not raced any more reason is they are just to expensive to fix if damaged.Where as the replica you just order the parts on Monday.The InCA series racing was brilliant and the 50's vintage bikes were very quick AND ridden very hard.I have seen a TZ 125 with bantam cases welded on but no matter how much hp it still has to go through a Bantam frame/suspension.
Where it's silly to enforce OEM style rules is that this drives cost up in a big way, I don't really care what anyone uses so long as it can fit within the original cases/housing.

[211kawasaki]

The intent of the rule (in EVO) is to prevent a Mono being modified to a twin shock or a water cooled bike being fitted with Air cooled engine or a disk being replaced with a drum, thats all. If the bike left with twin shocks and had drum brakes and air cooling its OK even is its been modified with period Symonds forks and a set of Ohlins shocks.

Same for pre85 - go the period forks and shock but don't put a rear disk on it if it left the factory with a drum.

Hope that sorts out the confusion

[090]

The age old problem of the written language. People get out of it what they want to suit their agenda. It will always be that way. Maybe the rules have to be tweaked but you don't have to be a brain surgeon to sort it in you're own head. The minority will sometimes have a go for reasons unknown to most of us which is what you are worried about. There will only ever be an issue if you podium at a title meet, so if your good enough bahnsy maybe worry about it just a little bit, if you are slower than top three then you should be sleeping well.Even this may be taken the wrong way, even though i have written it light heartedly  see!

[Maico31]

Bahnsy if you hunt around on ebay i reckon you could find a set of 43mm forks, an alloy swingarm from a '81 cr250 or 450 and a set of ohlins that need a rebuild for around $300. You'd have to look pretty hard but sounds like that's what Magoo has done.
I have no doubt that you would go faster with ohlins shocks, 43mm forks and twin leading shoe front brakes on a '78 model bike, but they are all Evo legal parts from a YZ465 and '81 Husky aren't they.
What about an '84 CR500 Husky twin shock, that bike is 5 years newer than an RM400n but it's still an Evo bike.
I don't think it matters what year a bike is as long as it's within the Evo period guidelines.

[BAHNZY]

With more riders parking their Pre75 machines (given the value of the bike and the cost of repairs) and moving towards the EVO and Pre85 classes to continue their racing, not to mention the new riders that are attracted to the sport, i can see in few years time where the grid of EVOLUTION bikes at a race meeting will consist of these hybrid bikes with huge forks (inc. twin leading brakes), big dollar rear shocks and monster engines, If you don't think this happening now then you would have your head in the sand
It concerns me because this is not in the spirit of what I belive EVOLUTION racing was set up for. Many will argue this point because the EVOLUTION era was when the suspension got bigger and better, the bikes actually went well around corners not just in a strait line and you could actually land off a jump without compressing your spine.
From my side i dont care what a rider brings to the start gate, a $20K Fox Factory Replica or a $1K dunga, i am there to have a dip with them all and if i dont come last then i'll have a slightly bigger grin than if I did. The absolute last thing I want to see is 78/79 Maicos, Yamaha's Suzuki's etc that have been butchered to make them competive with the bikes as noted above.