Author Topic: EVOLUTION/OEM - What Is Your Interpretation?  (Read 45915 times)

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Maico31

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Re: EVOLUTION/OEM - What Is Your Interpretation?
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2007, 12:01:03 pm »
Yeah i don't wanna see mega dollar illegal hybrids either. I've been racing the Evo class for 10 years now and the vast majority of the bikes have been within the spirit of the era and i hope it stays that way. Like you said the Evo and pre '85 classes are growing rapidly which is great for the sport but we don't want to turn people away either with the rulebook police going over the top about petty things.

Offline Rossvickicampbell

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Re: EVOLUTION/OEM - What Is Your Interpretation?
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2007, 02:04:12 pm »
I agree with you Bahnsy - cutting up something to make something else is just pure sacrilege unless of course it is several basket cases to start with.  Unfortunately there will be a minority (I hope it is so) who will always spend money to get bigger and better and faster etc etc etc however where I race we race on ability and not machines which I think really stays with the original concept and "doing the right thing" and quite often these guys who do spend a fortune are embarassed by something fairly stock.

I also dont think it is something that can be stopped by the rules as after all every single one of us has a moan about how good the Kiwis have it with their much simpler system and we dont want to make ours any worse.

Just my 2 bobs worth as this is one of the better threads I have seen for a while ;D ;D

Rossco (wannabe faster!!)
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Offline DJRacing

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Re: EVOLUTION/OEM - What Is Your Interpretation?
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2007, 06:06:52 pm »
The absolute last thing I want to see is 78/79 Maicos, Yamaha's Suzuki's etc that have been butchered to make them competitive with the bikes as noted above.


I couldn't agree more Bahnsy.
Yamaha may have had the 43mm fork and twin leading brake but lets hope they stay on the yammies. Anyone who butchers bikes in VMX isn't in the spirit of the sport. Isn't one of the philosophies of vmx to preserve the old bikes not butcher them ??? Yes a bitsa bike out of bits that you've collected over time or parts bikes that are only good for just that (parts) is great to build a bike from.
  If you need to win that bad you should be out doing it in MX1 or MX2 with the young guys. These old bikes have had their time and now its time to show some respect to them. By saying that I am not trying to diminish competition or racing but its not all about the rider, it's all about the bike.
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Doc

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Re: EVOLUTION/OEM - What Is Your Interpretation?
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2007, 07:24:54 pm »
depending on the bike I'm riding my philosophy is ride it like it was meant to be ridden..exception being the RM400..it just wants to kill me outright..here for a short time guys so bottom line is 'enjoy' :D

Offline Graeme M

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Re: EVOLUTION/OEM - What Is Your Interpretation?
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2007, 12:09:33 am »
OK... looks like I really didn't pick up on the undercurrent of vintage MX! To me, the whole vintage thing is about reliving a time in a sort of touchy feely way, and having fun racing the things at the same time. Garage queens of course should be as close to original as possible, but for racing, I would have thought that performance mods, whether 'of the day' or not, would be perfectly fine? I love seeing some of the trick stuff people do, and couldn't care less if a 79 RM400 has a 43mm front end on it. I think that's so cool, building bikes that you couldn't back then because you didn't know how, couldn't afford it, or didn't have the luxury of having access to a decade of development.

I have to admit I wouldn't for a moment have thought that adding cartridge emulators to a set of big forks on my HL500 would be against the rules, or that getting my engine built like that one in the VMX article with all manner of trick gear and pipes/carbs, or ading a really nice custom swingarm and multi adjustable YSS shocks, would be a No No...


Offline suzuki27

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Re: EVOLUTION/OEM - What Is Your Interpretation?
« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2007, 07:35:21 am »
I have a couple of reasons/excuses for running RM250D(83) forks on my RM250T(1980). The standard forks were designed to be run with air -without air they are hopeless-these forks had a bush cast into the outer leg,but over the years these would wear to the point where the forks no longer hold air-the only solution was run heavier fork springs(XR400) and heavier/more oil-still not a nice feel.I also see the later Husky and Yamaha Evo bikes with legal fatter legs and twin leaders and thought, why not-otherwise it is unfair.I believe my 83 drum front and 79 Husky rear is still in the spirit-that's my two bobs worth anyway.

Offline geraldo

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Re: EVOLUTION/OEM - What Is Your Interpretation?
« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2007, 08:19:07 am »
spirit of the era to me is the only way to go , if you wanted to get really picky then you shouldn't be able to use modern tyres , modern lubricants , modern compound brake shoes - good lord - you get a performance advantage , tut tut
& what about modern riding gear - do you ban knee braces , leatt braces & all those other andvances that make riding safer & better.
what I don't like seeing on a VMX bike is anything modern that looks out of place - eg: lowboy expansion pipes , fatbars , modern shaped mudguards - as Graeme said - we are trying to recreate the look/sound/smell/feel of moto-x from another time

Offline Graeme M

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Re: EVOLUTION/OEM - What Is Your Interpretation?
« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2007, 08:31:45 am »
Just to show I am as weird as anyone, I have to agree with Geraldo about mudguards. I can't stand seeing bodgy guards, or modern guards, on Vintage bikes. Sometimes at an event I'll see a bloke with say a 1978 YZ250 and he's got some weird looking Acerbis thing with flutes and flares and worse, it's mounted all wrong and totally ruins the lines of the bike. I wanna go over there, grab him by the scruff of the neck, make him look at the original brochure and then write out 100 times "I will not ruin the looks of a perfectly good vintage motocrossser"!

And just as soon as I can afford it I'll replace the silly looking guards on my RM125, too....

Offline bigk

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Re: EVOLUTION/OEM - What Is Your Interpretation?
« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2007, 09:27:28 am »
HL500, now there's a can of worms in itself and as for tapered bars on vintage bikes, YUK! You see an awful lot at the races and no one says boo about them, but put a set of 43mm forks and a twin leading shoe brake and get accused of cheating. I'm with Graeme, I love seeing trick bikes with trick bits, it adds to the spectacle of vintage racing. I say good luck and well done to anyone who can afford to build and show us his "$20K Fox Factory replica", whether he can ride or not. Coudo's too to the guy who can flog us all on his $500 shitter as well, but you won't see anyone gooing and gahing over it in the pits.Lets face it, we all drool over the factory bikes in the magazines. As for the spirit of vintage racing, I reckon it should be about the fun of racing with like minded people in the dirt and having a laugh afterwards. I personally can't ride for shit, so I guess it won't matter to me if I got protested coz I got some big forks in me evo bike. Is the guy who can afford an '81 Maico 490 or an '84 Husky 500 cheating because he has more disposable cash than the guy who can afford a '78 CR250 or RM400? He definately has an advantage but they still race in the same class. No wonder it's so confusing for anyone wanting to get into the sport.Twin shock, no linkage, drum brakes, air cooled = EVO bike.

All Things 414

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Re: EVOLUTION/OEM - What Is Your Interpretation?
« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2007, 12:24:29 pm »
Graeme. If I run the stock Monty front guards, I will ruin the look of a perfectly good vintage motocrosser! :D Let's face it. Back then, as now, stuff used to get junked off a bike as soon as it got in the shed. I dont think I've ever seen a photo of a VB/VE Monty in its racing days with the OEM front guards on them. So yeah, on goes a PP. But where does it end? Corruption starts with the first free hamburger!

I'm with the previous speakers. Nothing looks tougher than a bike with big, fat conventional forks! 15 inches of suspension and a pipe that'll double as a side stand. That's how I dreamed of them back then, that's how I still love 'em today!
But the modern fat bars on them are simply embarrasing...... :-[


I doubt whether it'll help the average Joe go any faster but he'll sure have a lot more photos taken of his bikes.....

Twin shock, drum brakes, air cooled = Evo bike!
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 12:37:36 pm by All Things 414 »

Offline Nathan S

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Re: EVOLUTION/OEM - What Is Your Interpretation?
« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2007, 02:43:06 pm »
How about:

"Evo regs:
The frame, fork externals, swing arm, engine cases, cylinder, triple clamps, brakes, fuel tank, seat and wheel hubs must all come from a bike that was originally manufactured with F & R drum brakes, air cooling and non-linkage rear suspension, or be accurate replicas of the same".

The end.

It's the same as the way things work nowdays, but is clear and unambiguous. No questions about whether later model guards are legal, or whether mix-and-match is OK.

Simple, no?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 02:46:46 pm by Nathan S »
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Offline DJRacing

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Re: EVOLUTION/OEM - What Is Your Interpretation?
« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2007, 03:37:55 pm »
I think most people have valid points. I too like the look of beefy looking forks (I run 38mm YZ250G forks in my YZ125G which normally runs 36mm) and I use DG and Vintage Iron pipes. I also use twin leading front brakes on the '80 YZ125G, but to me they were all available in the day (except Vintage Iron) and that bike is legal for pre81 125cc racing here in NZ. I do try to keep my bikes looking as close as I can to what they would have looked like in their day. The funny thing is, is that I still dont beat anyone who normal would beat me even though I have some trick bits on the bike. Over here we generally race on natural terrian tracks, most of them have grass in the morning and can be damp and slippery so the best proformance inhancing piece of equipment you can have is a good set of tires. For you guys over there I can see that suspension would play the major role as you are racing on made MX tracks with jumps etc.
When the "spirit of the era" is spoken of I believe it is up to the individual to decide that his or hers
1978 125/250/400 is within the "spirit" if newer parts are added to the bike. If you believe you are at an unfair disadvantage on that bike standard or even with hot-up parts from '78 then maybe you should look at a bike that is more advanced or nearer the end of the twinshock era??

I can see this topic is close to everyones heart and the rights and wrongs are probably never going to be agreed upon by everyone but it is interesting to read what people think on the matter of evo or (post78 non-linkage/aircooled) bikes are all about.

At some point in time do you think with pre85 getting bigger that your rules will put an era limit to the Evo class??
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 03:42:55 pm by DJRacing »
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Offline BAHNZY

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Re: EVOLUTION/OEM - What Is Your Interpretation?
« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2007, 05:59:16 pm »
This is how i see it, now this is my opinion so please dont shoot me down.
Lets wind the clock back. Its 1979 and i see myself as a front runner at an interclub level and pretty handy at a state level. I start to look to what performance advantages i can gain from my bike, i go to my respected motorbike shop and they tell me that i can get a set of ohlins for the rear and if i've got enough coin i can get a set of Simmond or Fox forks.

Now i have a brilliant idea, i get hold of Doctor Who and his Tardus and i go forward in time to 1981. I get a a set of 43mm Yamaha units complete with twin leading shoes, i come back to 1979 and graft them in and go racing, i now have a clear advantage to the rest of the field. Obviously this is absurd, so why do we allow it in 2007?

My interpretation of the "Spirit of the ERA" is just that, the spirt of the ERA, wether it be specifically 1979, 1980 etc. If we just let the EVOLUTION blur into anything as long as it is drum braked, air cooled and non-linkage suspension then we might as well just just drop the name EVOLUTION and call it the MY81 class because that is the spec that all bikes will be built to irrespective of when the bike was actually built.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 06:09:17 pm by Bahnsy »
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Offline Maicojames

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Re: EVOLUTION/OEM - What Is Your Interpretation?
« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2007, 06:05:02 pm »
Ths is funny to me...here in US AHRMA has I thought pretty specific class rules, and in fact I volunteer as a tech inspector. The biggest debate recently was the flat slide carby thing-now this applies to all Vintage and up. In Post Vintage, like the EVO classes you have we have thre area classes.
1. Historic most bikes 1975-1977( sounds like your pre-78 class, maybe that's where it came from as it looks like in Oz these classes have been run longer)
2. GP 1978-1981 about the same all twin shock except YZ
3. Ultima-allows Water cooled linkage bikes as long as no disc.
What is controversial is the only flat slide carbs allowed are mikuni Tms which were available in 1982-83-the Kehein(sp?) PJ,PWK etc are not allowed..oh yea Lectrons are alowed w/o powerjet in all Post Vintage classes.
Also controversial is the rule forbidding front drum conversions of bikes originally equipped with front disc. This of course, precludes all 82-up KXs, of which many would be otherwise legal....also 84 Cr.s due to this. Mostly, the one that hurts is the 83 KTM illegal since it came witha front Brembo disc...yet the 84 KTM( when they went back to a drum) is with USD WP forks( which were terrible anyway).
I have to say I would catch a modified 81 CR swingarm, or a converted KX, 84 CR etc, but I have probably let an 83 KTM by since it was so visually similar to the 82.

This past year twin leading shoe drums were banned from Historic class too. not a big deal to me. I have somehow been able to make a Maico brake work great-even with the stock short arm and all.
BTW since we define here for example GP up to 1981, the 43 mm forks are allowed.So, you can modify an earlier bike within the class to how it would have been possible up to 1981. The CR forks are also allowed since they are deemed the same as the YZ  forks.
Still, that is not how it really was. Anyone who was racing 81, if they were racing a 79 bike-was only doing so due to lack of $. What I am saying is that at least I never saw anyone put later model production components on a two tear old bike then( and the cost then would have made the Simons seem cheap).

I think this is a delicate balance. We do not want to have so many ruls that it drives away new riders, or even suppliers. We need people reproducing parts, there is a finite supply.
Conversely, if we fail to enforce reasonable guidelines, we are not Vintage racing. There is some push here in the US for less and less rules. Many want now to have vintage classes for say 87-95 model bikes. I think this is because they are cheaper, and easier for some suppliers to get parts for....at our local club we have a decade class-puportedly for 10 yr old bikes. This of course changes every year, but on top of that they allow modern bikes in that class too, only not scored. Well, at some point more and more will get the modern bikes, since they really are cheaper, and cheaper to maintain(until you get to the 98 up four stroke era) and fewer and fewer race the old bikes. If some want to have vet classes on modern bikes, and this is really an untapped market-more power to them. ..but it is not vintage racing. At 39(40 in July), I have little interest in "my generation's" bikes, namely since there are few in my generation, and I raced this era(88-95), have no interest in re-living it-or roamcing a time when more and more were injured, seriously and fatally...yum.

We still have a great era from late 60s to early mid 80s that at least here in the US was the heyday of mx. I was too young, and parents couldn't afford to send me mxing. I now get to race the bikes I only watched as a child. Not only that, but my 7 yr old daughter loves the old bikes too. I ask you, how cool is that?
MJ
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 06:26:13 pm by Maicojames »
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kaw440

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Re: EVOLUTION/OEM - What Is Your Interpretation?
« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2007, 06:08:07 pm »
The evo class it is simply all parts being oem or after market can be used as long as they were avalible or have came from another evo bike from the period  as for hybirds why not once again as long as you dont use any non evo parts and only period after market parts all you are doing is trying to make a better evo bike lets remember IT IS YOUR CHOISE what you race or build to race and if you can find the parts or aford to buy them then build what is in your limits and do it have fun and build a great bike the more the better the racing all the bike are only limited buy the riders ability if they are maintained to a good race order. The rules have to start somewhere and this needs to be done by rider input but remember not rules for your own agenda rules for the racing of evo bikes we need more evo bikes and events not less