EVOLUTION/OEM - What Is Your Interpretation?

[BAHNZY]

KAW440,
As you noted, "The rules have to start somewhere and this needs to be done by rider input but remember not rules for your own agenda rules for the racing of evo bikes we need more evo bikes and events not less" follows my same thought's.

What i have trouble with is that when you finnaly get people along to a race meeting and all that they witness is a sea of tricked up bikes and look at the $ spent, do you think that they are going to bother?

I want riders to drag their bike out of the garage give it a slap and tickle and think that they have half a shot at being competive without spending thousands of $

[VMX Andrew]

good reply bahnsy...every body likes the 43mm forks but the only evo bike i have seen come out as a production bike with them and is legal for evo racing is the yz250 465h.the 250 had em but didnt have the twin leading brake but the 465 did...81model im talkin about hear....hondas kawas and suzuks all had either water cooling or linkage suspension in that year which makes them illegal....but racers like to steal parts off them and fit them to the early .....(ala cr25078 79model hondas for example).....and suzukis as well same year...thats my two bobs worth.....

[090]

 I cant understand why it burns you so much? You keep yours original, others do their thing, we all go riding together!

[BAHNZY]

I'm trying like hell to promote Post78 to Pre85 racing as an entity in Victoria. As we entice more riders to the sport (The numbers are up 30+% in 2007 Vs 2004/5) the organising group are asked what is legal to modify and what is not, as i have stated many times in this discussion, i really don't care, build it, bring it and well find a class for you to race it.
However, i am concerned that we are allowing bikes to be built that arn't in the spirit of the ERA, after all EVOLUTION never existed (as a specific class) before 1985 and probably later.

Pre78 and its preceding classes have clearly defined cut-off dates and model specific tables advising of allowable bikes, yet Pre85 and EVOLUTION are not defined. In the case of Pre85 is it assumed that this class includes bikes built from Post78 to 1984 and EVOLUTION classes run in parrarell?

Under the current rules the Pre85 (which are yet to be published so i may stand corrected) and EVOLUTION classes do not run in parrarell, rather they intertwine with each other. Using the intent of the Pre78 rules a Hybrid EVO bike should not be allowed to compete in a Pre85 race as the bike is not as the manufacturer built it, yet a standard bike with year specific modifications could.

Q: How do you administer that and be fair to all riders that come to compete at a race meeting?
A1: Provide 100 seperate classes that allow each and every bike to fit into their respective category.
(or)
A2: Have a clear set of rules that define what can and cant be done.

[kaw440]

Why is there so many problems with evo twin shock drum brake air cooled bikes that is the class use parts that are period swap parts what ever you ride. The dollar seems to be a problem for some before you nail someone for a trick bike think of how much money you have spent over the years racing or if you have wanted something badly and how you found the money to buy it if it fits in the evo class buy using nos parts after market parts trick parts if you find them use em it is that simply if every bike was the same and had no differences then you would have no interest in the bikes see one seen them all any way wasnt that the era of racing when alot of mods was made by teams looking for the edge

[BAHNZY]

I'll stand corrected, but i never witnessed the factroy Honda or Suzuki teams use a set of Yamaha forks with twin leading shoes in their bikes. They may have tried to copy/emulate them, but not to my understanding simply bolt them in.

[bigk]

I reckon by the time scrutineering is done and all protests are soughted, it'll be dark and the only racing will have to be done at the pub! What about a class called " the 100% legal to the the era, spirit, nth degree, forget about having fun, just make sure your bike is right and if you spent more than an hour or $500 on it, don't come." Oh sorry, it seems we are already going to have that one. Don't think the starting grids will be full but....

[Maico31]

Evo has been running for 10 years without a hiccup!! Why is all this bullshit going on now just because it made it's way to the MA rulebook??

[bigk]

Here's another scenario: I think I might want to relive my youth and go vintage motocross racing with my mates, so I drag my 1979 CR250 out of the shed. She gets a lick and a promise, fires up no worries but the fork tubes are all rusty and pitted. I discover it will take a bit of effort and about $300-$400 to have them re-chromed. Damn! Luckily though the local wrecker has a perfect whole front end including triple clamps and front wheel from a 1981 CR250 that will bolt straight in, for only $200. Yeehah, I'm away. Except that I now find out that because those forks are from a single shock, watercooled bike, even though they are only 1mm bigger in diameter (37mm to 38mm), I won't be allowed to get scored in the evolution class. What to do? Can't really afford to pay near $400 for the re-chroming, don't want the hassles at the races with a non conforming bike, after all I'm only doing it for some fun and relaxation from the daily grind. I think I'll push her back in the shed and watch some re runs of Bourkes Backyard. Stuff the VMX, it's just too hard!
This is the kind of thing that will stop the average Joe from getting the bikes out of the shed, not the Fox replicas or Hybrid bikes. Surley common sense must prevail. By the way, if your bike doesn't conform after you take out the third place trophy and the guy who came fourth protests, do you get your entry fee back? The can of worms just keeps getting bigger.

[evo550]

Holy shit I just come in from the garage after fitting a set of yz465 forks, shock and swing arm to an xt550, reshaping the sub frame so I can fit an it465 seat and modifiying and mx400b tank to fit over the twin carbs....any idea what pipe I should run? All evo legal of course.
The evo rules are so simple it's not funny why do people try to complicate things,
OEM in the gcr's means the bike was manufactured as a Air cooled, drum braked, non linkage bike so the bike can be run standard or modified with parts from another bike that also left the factory in that form.
Fit something from a later era and it's cheating .....simple.
You can't fit a set of '77 maico forks to a '73 cr 250 in the pre '75 class so why should it be allowed in the evo class.
In saying that almost every time I front up to a meeting something is not letter perfect, but I'm not going to blow $70 whining about it.
If you don't like the rules for the class, sell up and ride another class.

[BAHNZY]

If I want race Pre 60, 60-65, 65-70, 70-75 & Pre78 the rules and regulations are very specific, why can’t they be for Evolution and Pre85?
The rules as they stand don’t make sense. As I originally questioned, how does someone interpret the following?

18.7.12.2 Modifications converting later equipment to comply will not be allowed
Yet the next rule says that;
18.7.12.3 All components will be of the period the machine was manufactured.
a) No linkage suspension,
b) No Disc brakes,
c) Air cooled motors.

If the period is defined by OEM bikes that were fitted with no linkage suspension, drum brakes, and air cooled engines then parts from models manufactured from 1978 to 1981 (roughly) can be used. How then can you apply 18.7.12.2?

The other issue is that the only class’s that say you can’t run age groups (modern MX aside) are Evolution & Pre85, Why?

I would like to think that we are challenging individuals to talk about what they think should be reflected in the GCR handbook. If we as riders who ride these bikes don’t do it and hopefully get it right, someone else who does not understand the era and what it is about will, and they will stuff it up and it real hard to recind a rule.

Note 2008 GCR’s for Pre85 state;
18.7.14 Pre 1985 class
18.7.14.1 Pre 85 class can be run as a National Championship, and can be independent of other classes
18.7.14.2 Pre 85 eligibility. Acceptable machines for pre 85 are machines built up to and including the 1984 models. The only exception to this GCR is where the model remains unaltered after this date. The onus of proof of eligibility shall rest wholly on the rider or entrant of this machine
18.7.14.3 Modifications using later equipment are not allowed.
18.7.14.4 All components will be of the period the machine was manufactured
18.7.14.5 Classes
(a) Solo 125cc
(b) Solo 250cc
(c) Solo 263cc and over
18.7.14.6 No age group classes will be run.

So if you have a 83 RM500 with a front disc, should it be converted back to a drum brake to comply with 18.7.14.3 ?

[evo550]

Banshy,
18.7.12.3 means
To be evo eligible the bike must have been manufactured with all three critera met,you can mix and match parts from other manufactures of a bike that left the factory again with all three critera met.

18.7.12.2 means,
You can't fit a air cooled motor from a linkage bike to a evo bike.

In the case of the Rm 500 if the disc comes from a '83 kx or '84 cr then it's fine as it was derived from another pre '85 bike, but if it comes from a '87 cr 250 then no as it came from a bike that missed the cut off date.
This is a rule that applies to all classes not just evo/pre'85, you cant fit a set of 77 maico forks to a 73 cr250 in the pre '75 class.
The evoloution class has been around for alot longer than either pre '78 or pre '85 and originally was a simple class that catered for any bike built after dec 1974 that was air cooled, drumbraked and
non linkage.
Since the inception of pre '85 it has become a bit of a grey area for some and that is understandable when you consider that a 1984 Husky 500 can race evo but a 1980 kx has to race pre '85.

Most of this isn't a problem at club level as no one could be bothered wasting $70 beer money on a protest, it only becomes an issue at title meetings. Just so you know this has been going on for years even before evo came along, there where eligibility issues with pre '75 bikes.

Might I suggest you dig a big hole and bury that rule book, and go for a ride to clear the head.

[Rossvickicampbell]

FWIT Bahnsy has my vote.  When I looked at returning to Motocross VMX caught my eye.  Of course you check out what you are allowed to have aka pre 75 here in WA and away you go and run by the current rules - as for any sport anywhere else in the world.  Let me exagerate the point - if I could fit a set of 2007 forks from a CR 250 on my Evo bike is that OK - no it shouldn't be - where does it stop.  I think period correct mods are OK ie pre 75, pre 78, pre 85 or whatever but getting gear from later models and retrofitting I believe has caused some problems in sidecars and I dont want to see it happen here?  Of course you can trick your bike - with stuff available from the time - dont abuse the fact that later models are available.

Next

Rossco

[Noel]

Hi.
how about this

Maybe year cut of dates  are the way to go,
evo 1 up to 1980, (this could include upgraded pre78 bikes with earlier than 80 parts)
evo 2 after 1980,

so the earlier bike modified with later parts race in evo 2,
grid them up together and score separately at club level ,
depending on entries you would run them separately at title events

The current rules do seem to need the definitions clarifying (ie OEM/ and later model [period?]Parts )

Noel

[magoo]

I can't believe that anyone would want to complicate a simple system. As Maico31 said, there has been no problems before, so why start to create confusion now. By what Noel is saying, you can run a 1978 CR againt a 1979 CR but not a 1980? I don't get it. Are you trying to tell me a 1978 CR250 isn't competitive against a 1984 Husky or a 1981 YZ? Of course it is.
It's ok to put a pair of $2500 44mm Fox Forx but not ok to use $100 41mm Honda forks. The more complicated you make the rules the more open to cheating it becomes. Keep it simple.