OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: worms on December 22, 2015, 05:19:30 pm
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IT AINT THAT HARD, evo can be year based, still with the general guidelines of oem, 1978 to 1982. if it dosent fit that it's pre 85 or then it fits pre 90. it's got to be year based, simple.
lets just race bikes as they were raced in the day, it's only the wankers that is stuffing it up. why cant people just accept the word NO and move to the next class. year based and it solved.
anyway, merry christmas.
Worms
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Rules good or bad are the same for every one
;D ;D
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I have an old 1981 DR500 with a 1980 RM front end. I fitted a 1980 front end because in 1981 i could have done it. In 1981 i couldn't have fitted a 1982 or newer front end because they hadn't made them yet. If EVO owner stick to using parts from the year it was made, or older not newer, then i think everyone will be/may be happy.
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Of course you could have fitted it. You could have fitted an 82 RM front end in 1982 to your 81 DR! There is no inherent logic that fitting older parts is only permitted. In fact it seems weird except for the cost factor of course - why put old parts onto a newer bike when newer parts are available?
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interesting how 1981 i could have fitted parts from a 1982 bike when they hadn't even made them
. Unless one has a time machine :o and is,nt 1982 from a rising rate full floater bike, which would be pre 85?
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I've stayed out of this until now
Yep, pretty simple. Keep the drum brakes, no water cooling and no linkage. Pre 82 and name the other odd bikes in the rules that are beyond 82 that still fit the bill (I think someone mentioned a big bore husky and the odd KTM (?) )
Pretty simple stuff. Yes I am an EVO rider (when my bikes are running ::) )
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I've stayed out of this until now
Yep, pretty simple. Keep the drum brakes, no water cooling and no linkage. Pre 82 and name the other odd bikes in the rules that are beyond 82 that still fit the bill (I think someone mentioned a big bore husky and the odd KTM (?) )
Pretty simple stuff. Yes I am an EVO rider (when my bikes are running ::) )
Pre '82 would include jap bikes with linkage rears.
Pre '81 is the cut off for most jap bikes. Then include the bikes such as Maico,Husky, Montesa, Yamaha etc maybe
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I've stayed out of this until now
Yep, pretty simple. Keep the drum brakes, no water cooling and no linkage. Pre 82 and name the other odd bikes in the rules that are beyond 82 that still fit the bill (I think someone mentioned a big bore husky and the odd KTM (?) )
Pretty simple stuff. Yes I am an EVO rider (when my bikes are running ::) )
Pre '82 would include jap bikes with linkage rears.
Pre '81 is the cut off for most jap bikes. Then include the bikes such as Maico,Husky, Montesa, Yamaha etc maybe
The post you quoted included "Keep the drum brakes, no water cooling and no linkage".
I think everyone (big call, I know!) agrees on those three elements.
Having the additional '82 cutoff would seem sensible, and in the spirit of the class. (Perhaps with named carry over models that were identical to their pre '82 siblings.)
If you couldn't fit it in '82, you can't fit it to an Evo bike.
It's "Evolution" before the "Revolution" of linkages, discs and water cooling.
It's Vintage Motocross.
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I've stayed out of this until now
Yep, pretty simple. Keep the drum brakes, no water cooling and no linkage. Pre 82 and name the other odd bikes in the rules that are beyond 82 that still fit the bill (I think someone mentioned a big bore husky and the odd KTM (?) )
Pretty simple stuff. Yes I am an EVO rider (when my bikes are running ::) )
Pre '82 would include jap bikes with linkage rears.
Pre '81 is the cut off for most jap bikes. Then include the bikes such as Maico,Husky, Montesa, Yamaha etc maybe
The post you quoted included "Keep the drum brakes, no water cooling and no linkage".
I think everyone (big call, I know!) agrees on those three elements.
Having the additional '82 cutoff would seem sensible, and in the spirit of the class. (Perhaps with named carry over models that were identical to their pre '82 siblings.)
If you couldn't fit it in '82, you can't fit it to an Evo bike.
It's "Evolution" before the "Revolution" of linkages, discs and water cooling.
It's Vintage Motocross.
You could easily say pre 90 with the same criteria then.
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"You could easily say pre 90 with the same criteria then."
Yes you could, provided the bike had: no linkage, drum brakes and no water cooling stock.
However:
1. After '82 there were virtually no MX bikes made that meet that criteria.
2. Fitting parts, eg forks, from a later model bike, that didn't meet the criteria doesn't seem in the spirit of the class.
Once you can fit late model parts, you open up the "Frankenstein bike" can of worms.
If you include a sensible cutoff date, a question that would be self evident would be:
"Could you have made and raced that bike in 1982 (for eg)?" (Not if it has '90 model forks on it.)
I don't have an Evo bike (yet), but the class appeals on several levels. One being that many manufacturers produced models that can be reasonably competitive (under the current interpretation.) So you can satisfy the nostalgia for a certain brand, perhaps from your youth.
It's also an eara that appeals to some of us "wrong side of 50yo guys" that rode these bikes in the day, and realistically only have another 20 or 30 years of riding left in us :)
A strictly year based class like pre '78 favours any manufacturer that made a great gain in 1977, and disadvantages any manufacturer that hit the sweet spot in 1978. (Great advances each year from '73-'83.)
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have a frankenstien class and chuck all the bobbers in there, I remember as a kid raceing minibikes we had a special class!
if ya wanta play, anything goes, cheque book racer, do what ya want (no points) hod rod bikes, freedom of expresion, go for it, who cares, have fun! Class
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have a frankenstien class and chuck all the bobbers in there, I remember as a kid raceing minibikes we had a special class!
if ya wanta play, anything goes, cheque book racer, do what ya want (no points) hod rod bikes, freedom of expresion, go for it, who cares, have fun! Class
We don't need another class and I think the majority don't want it.
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you could put another class in and let it self regulate - if you get lots of bikes - great - if not then..................................
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There is already a class for 'Evo' bikes made from Pre-90 parts.
It's called Pre-90.
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Cut off dates for EVO now ??? Might as well get rid of pre '78 and EVO and just run a pre '80 class....
Pre '75, Pre '80, Pre '85 and so on....
Would get rid of this ongoing bollocks and one less class to run on a race day. Oh wait the poor Mega 2 riders would have to ride pre '85, so that'll never happen.
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IT AINT THAT HARD, evo can be year based, still with the general guidelines of oem, 1978 to 1982. if it dosent fit that it's pre 85 or then it fits pre 90. it's got to be year based, simple.
lets just race bikes as they were raced in the day, it's only the wankers that is stuffing it up. why cant people just accept the word NO and move to the next class. year based and it solved.
anyway, merry christmas.
Worms
Love your work
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Cut off dates for EVO now ??? Might as well get rid of pre '78 and EVO and just run a pre '80 class....
Pre '75, Pre '80, Pre '85 and so on....
Would get rid of this ongoing bollocks and one less class to run on a race day. Oh wait the poor Mega 2 riders would have to ride pre '85, so that'll never happen.
Because clearly the Maico is an evo bike. Same as a 465 h.
The best year cut off is pre '81.
Then name the exceptions.
e.g. '81 maico's, up to '84 Husky's , up to '92(?) CZ's, up to (?) Montesa's, '81 yz465 and 250 etc.
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Cut off dates for EVO now ??? Might as well get rid of pre '78 and EVO and just run a pre '80 class....
Pre '75, Pre '80, Pre '85 and so on....
Would get rid of this ongoing bollocks and one less class to run on a race day. Oh wait the poor Mega 2 riders would have to ride pre '85, so that'll never happen.
Because clearly the Maico is an evo bike. Same as a 465 h.
Not if "EVO" no longer exists...
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The thing that most are not seeing in the 2016 Evolution class rules are the words " all machines must be within the Classic and Post Classic eras. At this point in time it means anything up to Pre 90. In a couple of years time when Pre 95 is in the MoMS Evo will effectively move five years further forward. Then five years later when Pre 2000 arrives Evo will leapfrog another five years. It will be an ever evolving class.
Hardly historic racing.
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The thing that most are not seeing in the 2016 Evolution class rules are the words " all machines must be within the Classic and Post Classic eras. At this point in time it means anything up to Pre 90. In a couple of years time when Pre 95 is in the MoMS Evo will effectively move five years further forward. Then five years later when Pre 2000 arrives Evo will leapfrog another five years. It will be an ever evolving class.
Hardly historic racing.
With logic like that we are all doomed. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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You didn't understand the repercussions back then and you still don't understand them now.
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Too much bickering about rules. :-\
Let's use the Internet for what it was designed for:
Info about squish band mods on big bore two strokes and looking at girls. ;)
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I am not as up to speed on this as many are on this forum but essentially agree with what Brad - and others - have said. Why cannot EVO be as per the current rules, an era applied (be that pre 81, 82 or 85) and specific bikes post that named and allowed as occurs for the other classes. Sounds simple and certainly gets away from Ted's doom and gloom that it will continue with each 5 year allocation and the rules not be changed to restrict it?
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Ross vikicampbell and Brad stop talking sense or the thread will dry up!!!lol
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you could put another class in and let it self regulate - if you get lots of bikes - great - if not then..................................
thats all Im saying, let the builders have the problem and let us get on with
pre65
pre70
pre75
pre78
pre 82 ish
pre85
pre90
I dont think its that hard if they build bikes that dont fit then they will have to build a class, if that wont happen, then dont build wierd stuff and think you can race it!
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Was with a couple of old Scramble rider mates at a Boxing day BBQ, question was asked......
Question: Are the VMXers who are not happy with the "new" MA Evo rules active riders that are interested in working on old bikes and lining up at the starting gate for a "have a go" ride with mates or are they trophy hunters that are worried a "special" might take the Gold?
And we did not consider the imaginary problem of "good ol' bikes" being cut up because in the main the "specials" that would now seem possible would not be built using pre 82 (or Euro carryover) components.
And a special we saw as an easy and economical build would be say a twin shock 84 Husky WR with the water cooled motor replaced by a pre 90 air cooled XR motor and cartridge late 80 Honda conventional forks with a drum brake slotted in, and someone may set us straight but that would seem ok under the current Evo rules.
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That sounds like an excellent and economical Pre90 bike.
If you are not worried about results just riding with your mates then what is wrong with riding it in the class that it fits which is Pre90.
It does not represent any bike that could have been built earlier than say 1986/7 and therefore belongs in Pre90.
Would your imaginary bike be any cheaper than say a '78/9 Husky frame etc, 1979/80 Yamaha/Honda forks and wheels with a 1979/80 XR/XL500 Honda engine which would fit more easily into the general understanding of an EVO bike
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Just a few statistics regarding the Evo class over the last couple of years.
Qld Classic & Post Classic C'ship 2013 -2014 a 34% increase in Evo entries, 2015 slight increase
Qld " " " " 2015 Evo is biggest class followed by Pre75, then Pre90, Pre78, Pre85
Aust Post Classic C'ship 2015 Bendigo Evo is the biggest Class followed by Pre90 then Pre85
Conondale Classic 2015 Pre90 is biggest followed by Pre85 then Evo all fairly close followed with a big gap to Pre 95, Pre75, Pre78 If you combine Evo and Twinshock (only counting once these who entered both) , Evo eligible bikes were the biggest number.
Mountain Man 2015 biggest Pre90, then Evo, Pre78, Pre85, Pre75, Pre95.
These will not necessarily reflect the national situation, although Bendigo was a national event, the Qld titles attract a few visitors, Conondale Classic and Mountain Man enjoyed good visitor numbers.
National and Qld tile events are a truer representation of where the average punters stand as they don't have paid or VIP free entries and few "hired guns" as do the Conondale Classic and Mountain Man where the emphasis is on the later bikes
Before everyone jumps in, these stats are taken from the printed programs, no criticism re the three event examples is intended nor implied. They are quite different events each with their own merits.
I am also not commenting on rules.
I am pointing out that regardless of individuals viewpoint, and the dire warnings on this forum, Evolution is alive and well.
It is what it is, and for the good of the big picture I hope the riders will support the Post Classic Nats and lay a strong foundation for the future.
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People seem to think this EVO thing is about trophy hunters or someone gaining an advantage by fitting 1989 forks and such. While this has something to do with it it's not the main issue.
It is mainly about our sport. Our sport is based on recreating a period of racing. Evolution is that period between first generation long travel bikes which is Pre78 and when the new technology of water cooling, linkage suspension and/or disc brakes became the norm - Pre85. This did not happen on a set date unfortunately.
It is an unfortunate twist of how Classic MX progressed that the Evolution class never had a cut off date assigned. Does anyone really think that if we introduced classes with a clean sheet in 2015, from scratch, would we have Evolution as it is being proposed for 2016? I would be shocked if we did.
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Col, If the Nationals are a true indication of our sport then going on the most recent Post Classic entries (riders) we are in serious serious trouble!
That is not having a go at anyone just reality using your position.
Statistic dam statistics. You can make them represent almost anything. How many NSW riders entered the most recent Classic Nationals? Does that indicate that classic racing is dead in NSW? NO! There were up to 26 Pre75 riders on the grid for an All Powers race this year in our club.
How many NSW riders entered EVO at the 2015 Nationals? Heaven VMX had 47 EVO riders (>55 bikes) enter at Dargle mid year?
Going on National entry statistics it would be impossible to deduce anything other than the fact entry (rider) numbers are completely unstable. Certainly it would be a risk to use them as any form a prediction.
I am not trying to debate the correctness or otherwise of your percentages but to try and suggest one or two meetings is more or less representative of our sport is just completely false.
Certainly Heaven VMX has seen an increase this year in Pre75 and Pre78 entries and a steady increase in Pre90 entries. Pre85 surprisingly has had a slight decline while Evolution remains our largest but relatively static (numbers wise) class. Therefore on a percentage bases using your grounds of analysis Pre85 is dying quickly, Evolution is declining and Pre75/78 is booming. Meanwhile Pre90 is just going crazy as it started from zero in 2014 in our club.
Statistics dam Statistics
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Greg, your figures on your club events confirms what I was illustrating, that Evolution is alive and well.
Congratulations on your successful revival of Pre75 etc.
When is Gloucester, as I enjoyed it last year on my old Twinport and would like to get a few of our old bikes down.
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Heaven can run their own EVO rules for their own race meetings. No-one is forcing them to run MA EVO rules.
PCRA(NSW) ran their own P6 Unlimited road racing rules when MA published P6 rules that were unacceptable to the PCRA members.
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Greg, your figures on your club events confirms what I was illustrating, that Evolution is alive and well.
Congratulations on your successful revival of Pre75 etc.
When is Gloucester, as I enjoyed it last year on my old Twinport and would like to get a few of our old bikes down.
The point of your post was that the Qld titles and classic/Post Classic Nationals are the best barometer of CMX health. Which, when you look at the numbers just does not add up.
Pre75 was strong in 2013 & 2014 numbers increased in 2015 is it an aberration? 2016 & 2017 will tell. One result does not make a trend.
Just ask the NSW NRL state of origin team ::)
mbobby you are correct
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Heaven can run their own EVO rules for their own race meetings. No-one is forcing them to run MA EVO rules.
PCRA(NSW) ran their own P6 Unlimited road racing rules when MA published P6 rules that were unacceptable to the PCRA members.
I do recall *someone* inviting forum members to report any club that dared to deviate from the MA rules for their club days.
No idea what he thought he could do, but he was clearly wrong.
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Once upon a time Evo bikes were thought to be made up from major parts from other original spec Evo models.
You could build a hybrid bike from parts from other original Evo bikes just like you could build a Pre85 bike from parts from other Pre 85 models.
Not everyone agreed with this thinking but at least everyone knew where they stood in regards to what parts they could use.
Nek minut it seems an Evo bike can be built with parts from all sorts of models and it apparently had always been that way, much to the surprise of those that had gone out of their way to buy KDX 400 motors when all along they could have just used any old KX 420 engine or those that had paid good money for H model Yamaha forks in the belief that they were one of the best Evo legal forks.
Seems also that most liked how it used to be and an XR 600 motor in a Husky/KTM twinshock frame might make a good hybrid but it shouldn't be competing with guys on 81 models let alone 78 models.
Class's are meant to be for grouping together bikes of similar spec/performance/age
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Once upon a time Evo bikes were thought to be made up from major parts from other original spec Evo models.
You could build a hybrid bike from parts from other original Evo bikes just like you could build a Pre85 bike from parts from other Pre 85 models.
Not everyone agreed with this thinking but at least everyone knew where they stood in regards to what parts they could use.
Nek minut it seems an Evo bike can be built with parts from all sorts of models and it apparently had always been that way, much to the surprise of those that had gone out of their way to buy KDX 400 motors when all along they could have just used any old KX 420 engine or those that had paid good money for H model Yamaha forks in the belief that they were one of the best Evo legal forks.
Seems also that most liked how it used to be and an XR 600 motor in a Husky/KTM twinshock frame might make a good hybrid but it shouldn't be competing with guys on 81 models let alone 78 models.
Class's are meant to be for grouping together bikes of similar spec/performance/age
Get out of here ::) That is way way way way way way too logical.
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Nek minut it seems an Evo bike can be built with parts from all sorts of models and it apparently had always been that way, much to the surprise of those that had gone out of their way to buy KDX 400 motors when all along they could have just used any old KX 420 engine or those that had paid good money for H model Yamaha forks in the belief that they were one of the best Evo legal forks.
Class's are meant to be for grouping together bikes of similar spec/performance/age
Hmmmm sort of; The guy that bought the rare YZ465 forks then fitted '89 internals because he had the money, or the guy that fitted the KDX400 engine fitted with 420 & 450 internals turning it into a factory 443, making it much more potent than a stock 420?
Opening the class up to later model components makes the class cheaper because one does not have to find rare & overpriced components that comply (eg: set of YZ 43mm forks or KDX400 engine). This makes it cheaper & easier to build an Evo bike; there will then be many more bikes on the track.
I am sick of all this crap over Evo, I for one will NOT be entering an Evo class race until it allows 'Pre 85' components; END OF (MY) STORY :-)
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Class's are meant to be for grouping together bikes of similar spec/performance/age
Opening the class up to later model components makes the class cheaper because one does not have to find rare & overpriced components that comply (eg: set of YZ 43mm forks or KDX400 engine). This makes it cheaper & easier to build an Evo bike; there will then be many more bikes on the track.
AGREE 100%
I am sick of all this crap over Evo, I for one will NOT be entering an Evo class race until it allows 'Pre 85' components; END OF (MY) STORY :-)
Sorry John, but having pre85 components allowed is just wrong in my view. Only for the fact that most pre85 bikes were water cooled and had disc brakes. Any twin shock bike with a disc brake front end just looks wrong! It isn't in with the "era" of drum brakes, air cooled, twin shock (non linkage Yamaha) Evo class bikes, even if an adaptor is made to fit drum brakes.
I get a buzz out of building a hybrid from a whole mish mash of parts. It's a real challenge and not as easy as just bolting it all together in the hope it will work.
And no, I don't butcher perfectly good old motorcycles to build a hybrid, I just use the salvageable parts that get collected over the years. The only modern parts I use are the "consumeables" and rear shocks. Even with shocks I try to use period aftermarket stuff.
The thing I don't get about the rule nazi's is this........Did anyone argue with Aberg, Hallam, C&J, Champion, Metisse etc. when they rolled up to a race meeting with a bike from outside the box? Answer is NO! Point is, does it really matter if your young gun is going to beat all the old boys on their specials when he is on a 100% correct (insert heavily modified modern internals)YZ465? Oh, there is the $10 trophy to take home. You don't even get your name in print anymore, the MoMs is online now......
I don't give two flyin flucks what bike I am riding against.....as long as it looks right from 10 feet (insert metric if you have to) away. My days of racing for glory are well and truly behind me so I choose to ride old bikes and just want to have some fun with someone around my ability and talk crap with a beverage or 2 after the racing is done.
I will race classic MX (pre78) national events but I can't be bothered with all the (racing for airports) bull crap that is going on with Evo at the moment. It can only lead to a bad day out with all the arguing about what is eligible and what isn't. I have no interest in anything after Evo these days, apart from my trail bike, so driving all the way to Timbuctoo to have someone whinge in my ear that I can't ride my bike because it has 43mm conventional Showa forks on it and an aftermarket swingarm. Then I'd have to ride my 4st twin shock, drum brake, aircooled hybrid in pre90 because ............? No! I will not pay $70 to argue my case that my bike is eligible.
Makes no sense to me at all
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the evo class is a wonderful thing and so f#cking simple, comply with an external appearance that follows the twinshock/non linkage
air cooled and drum brakes of the era,you can modify stuff to your hearts content internally because its not policed.
my wonderful H 81' model yamaha can be ridden in evo and pre 85', my 4 stroke twin shock evo bike can be ridden in evo,pre85' and
4 stroke classes and age classes, shit loads of ride time available. alas some cant tolerate an even playing field , did these people
sign there 12 year old kids to play in under 7's sport. keep vmx simple , it will help not hinder this great thing. happy 2016 to all ?
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It seems funny to me that you guys that wanted open slather for EVO, and getting it, are now refusing to ride that class. This is what you blokes wanted all along. Why wouldn't you'se now turn up.
It will be very interesting to see what clubs run the Evolution class under the 2016 MoMS interpretation.
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Stop wording subjects to twist it to your desired outcome Ted.
I can't ever recall anyone wanting Evo to be "open slather". As for me, I'm so far from wanting open slather that I can't see the trees through the forest.
Besides, if you read the rules there is no open slather.
I don't want to attend post classic national events with people who look for any reason to lodge a protest against another bike. It doesn't seem to be in the spirit of friendship and a good time to me so I don't see the point in spending 2 days on the road to go somewhere where there is a very big risk of some zealot ruining my day!
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Believe me there will never be a protest at a Nats under this interpretation. How could you possibly protest something that you cannot understand. Anyway, if your bike is illegal you will be told " if you win and somebody protests I will have to disqualify you " now on your way.
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It seems funny to me that you guys that wanted open slather for EVO, and getting it, are now refusing to ride that class. This is what you blokes wanted all along. Why wouldn't you'se now turn up.
It will be very interesting to see what clubs run the Evolution class under the 2016 MoMS interpretation.
bet the VCM and VIPER down here run these eminently sensible and flexible rules without a hitch. I'll predict that the bigger range of cheaper parts that can be used will result in more bikes and more entries.
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GMC made the point better than anyone else has so far:
"Classes are meant to be for grouping together bikes of a similar spec/performance/age".
This is why "FrankenBike Evo" is so offensive and ridiculous - it only meets one of those criteria, and only in a superficial way.
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Glad to know you are the judge on all things wise Nathan........ ::)
Where does the FrankenBike Evo class come from?
Do you even ride/restore/own an Evo bike Nathan?
Or are you just jumping on board with Ted?
Believe me there will never be a protest at a Nats under this interpretation. How could you possibly protest something that you cannot understand. Anyway, if your bike is illegal you will be told " if you win and somebody protests I will have to disqualify you " now on your way.
In one breath you say there will be no protests at a nats and the next breath a protest is likely if I win. Make up your mind.
Just for the record, the chances of me winning anything on an Evo are very slim, unless I'm sitting on my bike around the fire at days end with a couple of bevies in my system!
bet the VCM and VIPER down here run these eminently sensible and flexible rules without a hitch. I'll predict that the bigger range of cheaper parts that can be used will result in more bikes and more entries.
I won't be betting against you Marcus
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GMC made the point better than anyone else has so far:
"Classes are meant to be for grouping together bikes of a similar spec/performance/age".
This is why "FrankenBike Evo" is so offensive and ridiculous - it only meets one of those criteria, and only in a superficial way.
Yes the "spec" is 'aircooled, drum brake, non linkage' ...... Who say's the classes are 'meant' to group similar performance; sounds like an interpretation of a few?
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It seems funny to me that you guys that wanted open slather for EVO, and getting it, are now refusing to ride that class. This is what you blokes wanted all along. Why wouldn't you'se now turn up.
It will be very interesting to see what clubs run the Evolution class under the 2016 MoMS interpretation.
bet the VCM and VIPER down here run these eminently sensible and flexible rules without a hitch. I'll predict that the bigger range of cheaper parts that can be used will result in more bikes and more entries.
Is a 84 CR, RM or KX 500 motor cheaper than a 78 YZ 400 motor?
Is a 86/87/88 fork, brakes and wheel cheaper than a 78/79/80 front end?
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What forks are they Ted?
Examples of the 86 87 88 forks please - Evo legal only please. You know - forks that are designed for a drum brake.
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Pick any fork you like.
No where in the Evo rules does it say drum brake designed fork only.
What it says is an Evo bike must remain WITHIN the Classic/Post Classic era, which any fork manufactured before 1990 does.
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GMC made the point better than anyone else has so far:
"Classes are meant to be for grouping together bikes of a similar spec/performance/age".
This is why "FrankenBike Evo" is so offensive and ridiculous - it only meets one of those criteria, and only in a superficial way.
Yes the "spec" is 'aircooled, drum brake, non linkage' ...... Who say's the classes are 'meant' to group similar performance; sounds like an interpretation of a few?
If classes aren't meant to group similar performance, what are they for?
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Pick any fork you like.
No where in the Evo rules does it say drum brake designed fork only.
What it says is an Evo bike must remain WITHIN the Classic/Post Classic era, which any fork manufactured before 1990 does.
Bullshit
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i started this post as a genuine ideas for a very defined age bracket for EVO, 1978 to 1982.
no bike or component built after 1982 should even be consider as EVO, it just becomes pre85 or pre 90.
the concept at the time of evolution was brilliant, but with the introduction of more classes, it has muddied the waters.
lets use the KISS factor and move on.
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There are plenty of true EVO bikes built after 1982. Standard, air cooled, drum braked, non linkage bikes so the 1982 year cut off is not a workable option IMO. I personally think the EVO rules are fine as they are unless you are a pundit for nth degree rulings & like a debate. A KISS common sense approach (as has been applied by most) works for the majority of EVO riders.
K
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There are plenty of true EVO bikes built after 1982.
A few Huskies, the 85+ DT175 and what else? TS185s and XL185s and the CZs are carry-over models. If we're writing rules to suit half a dozen bikes (one of which was never intended to be anything like an MX bike), then it makes far more sense to mention them specifically.
Nobody has ever wanted "standard" bikes in Evo, BTW.
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Glad to know you are the judge on all things wise Nathan........ ::)
Where does the FrankenBike Evo class come from?
Do you even ride/restore/own an Evo bike Nathan?
Or are you just jumping on board with Ted?
Thank you.
1. From the freedoms of the current version of the rules.
2. There are two Evo-legal bikes in the shed, but I walked away from the Evo class because I didn't want to be part of the shit fight. I will return to the class once the rules are clear and I am confident that that I won't be racing with historically irrelevant FrankenBikes or involved wit any sort of eligibility shitstorm.
3. If anything, Ted has jumped on board with me. :)
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I guess we all have different ideas about what Evo should be, based on what we have spent time & money on in the garage :-) I guess we just need confirmation as to the true meaning of any grey areas, then all this crap will stop and we'll get on and build a bike to ride :-)
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Less personalities would really help this move forward I think.
Rossco
Agree 100% personalities and Egos are the problem .
So many interpretations and possibilities also make this class a nightmare , at least on here .
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Nek minut it seems an Evo bike can be built with parts from all sorts of models and it apparently had always been that way, much to the surprise of those that had gone out of their way to buy KDX 400 motors when all along they could have just used any old KX 420 engine or those that had paid good money for H model Yamaha forks in the belief that they were one of the best Evo legal forks.
Class's are meant to be for grouping together bikes of similar spec/performance/age
Hmmmm sort of; The guy that bought the rare YZ465 forks then fitted '89 internals because he had the money, or the guy that fitted the KDX400 engine fitted with 420 & 450 internals turning it into a factory 443, making it much more potent than a stock 420?
The reality is that it is virtually impossible to police what's inside forks or a motor, doesn't make it right but there has to be a cut off. If it looks right from the outside let it go, the old but its cheaper to fit later model forks don't cut it for me . If your on a budget deal with it don't expect the rules changed to suit your budget
Opening the class up to later model components makes the class cheaper because one does not have to find rare & overpriced components that comply (eg: set of YZ 43mm forks or KDX400 engine). This makes it cheaper & easier to build an Evo bike; there will then be many more bikes on the track.
Again its not about what you can afford its about recreating an era . A half decent rider will clean up all those freakshow hybrids on a barn find stocker
I am sick of all this crap over Evo, I for one will NOT be entering an Evo class race until it allows 'Pre 85' components; END OF (MY) STORY :-)
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Can anyone put their hand on their heart and say that this has been handled well by MA?
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Class's are meant to be for grouping together bikes of similar spec/performance/age
Opening the class up to later model components makes the class cheaper because one does not have to find rare & overpriced components that comply (eg: set of YZ 43mm forks or KDX400 engine). This makes it cheaper & easier to build an Evo bike; there will then be many more bikes on the track.
I am sick of all this crap over Evo, I for one will NOT be entering an Evo class race until it allows 'Pre 85' components; END OF (MY) STORY :-)
Sorry John, but having pre85 components allowed is just wrong in my view. Only for the fact that most pre85 bikes were water cooled and had disc brakes. Any twin shock bike with a disc brake front end just looks wrong! It isn't in with the "era" of drum brakes, air cooled, twin shock (non linkage Yamaha) Evo class bikes, even if an adaptor is made to fit drum brakes.
Agreed
I get a buzz out of building a hybrid from a whole mish mash of parts. It's a real challenge and not as easy as just bolting it all together in the hope it will work.
There is a real satisfaction in that for sure
And no, I don't butcher perfectly good old motorcycles to build a hybrid, I just use the salvageable parts that get collected over the years. The only modern parts I use are the "consumeables" and rear shocks. Even with shocks I try to use period aftermarket stuff.
The thing I don't get about the rule nazi's is this........Did anyone argue with Aberg, Hallam, C&J, Champion, Metisse etc. when they rolled up to a race meeting with a bike from outside the box?
No but of course they were working to create the best with what was available at the time . They were not trying to recreate a certain era for historic racing, also they were creating history not reliving it
Answer is NO! Point is, does it really matter if your young gun is going to beat all the old boys on their specials when he is on a 100% correct (insert heavily modified modern internals)YZ465? Oh, there is the $10 trophy to take home. You don't even get your name in print anymore, the MoMs is online now......
I don't give two flyin flucks what bike I am riding against.....as long as it looks right from 10 feet (insert metric if you have to) away. My days of racing for glory are well and truly behind me so I choose to ride old bikes and just want to have some fun with someone around my ability and talk crap with a beverage or 2 after the racing is done.
The 10 foot rule is a great concept , but some have better eyesight than others and others only use one eye. I Love the socialising but still love the racing ( will race anything) but if there are rules make them clear and enforceable .
I will race classic MX (pre78) national events but I can't be bothered with all the (racing for airports) bull crap that is going on with Evo at the moment. It can only lead to a bad day out with all the arguing about what is eligible and what isn't. I have no interest in anything after Evo these days, apart from my trail bike, so driving all the way to Timbuctoo to have someone whinge in my ear that I can't ride my bike because it has 43mm conventional Showa forks on it and an aftermarket swingarm. Then I'd have to ride my 4st twin shock, drum brake, aircooled hybrid in pre90 because ............? No! I will not pay $70 to argue my case that my bike is eligible.
Makes no sense to me at all
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As there are obviously 2 defined camps the obvious solution is as has been suggested is 2 classes .
True EVO with bikes and parts from bikes 1978 to 1980 ( but include the accepted True EVO flow ons ) for the era purist .
This is a proper historic class and should be enforced as such .
Super EVO race what you have created as per the MOMs now for those who are not era purist .
This is a hybrid class for those who see it differently and budget is more important that era correctness .Of course this class would have very fluid and open guidelines and the 10 ,20 or 30 foot rule would work a treat .
Maybe both will be well supported , or only the strong will survive .
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agreed Bill - and this was suggested previously (dates a little different ;D) - if lots of support and more bikes on the track great - if not supported it will soon show up. Win win all around I think.
But I think I am becoming the victim of my own accusations and this is getting too personal - so shall drop out and watch now.
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The simple answer is Vinduro's were no one really gives a F#ck about how legal your bike is.
Fact Im sure given a long enough thread some of you could argue with yourself, If your not bickering about rules you have nothing to talk about, If you put the same energy into hours in the shed as you do pissing into the breeze on here we could see some great restro's.
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TM Bills idea sounds pretty good
I think its been proven that the rules really need to be laid out in black and white. Get it all out so there’s no reading between the lines, no secrecy as what the rules are really trying to say, no assumptions need to be made, no rule bending, no differing interpretations, no ‘just use your own common sense and it will all be ok’ Its been proven time and time again that the rules are not clear enough for EVERYONE and they need to be. People should not have to be contacting MA to ask for clarifications all the time and there should not be differing interpretations.
We could go around in circles for ages but this could be so simple/easy if a 84 model cut off was put on EVO.
So my thoughts on how they could be much clearer could go something like this. If the rules were like this or even worded better I can not see how there ever would be any issues ever again. Even a 5 year old could follow these.
Eligible machines shall be
-Twinshock or non linkage
-Drum braked
-Air cooled – SEE NOTE 1
-1984 or older model cut off
-Reproduction or new custom made frames acceptable but the motor should still be a 1984 model or older.
-No converting linkage rear suspension bikes to twinshock
-No Converting engines that were originally water cooled to be air cooled
-No fitting of major/non consumable components from pre 85 or newer class bikes – SEE NOTE 2
-No follow on models – SEE NOTE 3
1 – I personally would not be against allowing period aftermarket watercooled kits, original or repro or own/custom designed conversion if it was within the spirit/looked right but admit could be hard to police as what looks period to 1 person does not to another. I do have old magazine articles from this period where there was how to articles on doing your own water cooled conversions. I do understand if the majority do not want to see this at all though.
2 - Major/non consumable parts will need to be clarified. I do not really have an issue if someone wants to use OEM grips, pegs or handlebars off a pre 85 bike but components such as forks, wheels, triple clamps, swingarms, seats and tanks should not be used. Leave all the components on those newer class bikes on those bikes. If you really want to ride with those parts then just ride the bike they came off of in pre 85 or ride the Evo Franken bike in pre85 if it has pre85 parts on it.
3 – I think this is the best option unless someone can point out where it would be really hurtful to the class to not allow a particular model as a follow on. I am not up to speed on every single model and how many 1985 or newer models could be a true follow on. I do think though if you really, really want to ride EVO then get an EVO bike that’s clearly 100% EVO. And make it easy for yourself. A 1984 model or older bike that does not have discs/watercooling/linkage is an easy way to go about it!. Theres plenty of options out there. Stop trying to work out ways to get a bike that is not 100% EVO into that class.
Maybe there is room or enough of a demand for another class for people to build specials out of single shocked bikes converted to twinshocks or putting pre 85/pre90 components onto older bikes or whatever, but I don’t think these sorts of bikes represent what EVO is trying to be
But overall I think if you put 1984 year cut off on it, still call the class ‘EVO’ and then everything that has factory discs/linkage/watercooling goes straight to Pre85 it would be so much easier/clearer.
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Ross, the "what" is the ambiguity and subsequent disagreement over the Evo rules.
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I reckon this one's been done to death now. Let's move on to something more sympathetic to having fun on old dirtbikes...