OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Competition => Topic started by: Rookie#1 on September 21, 2014, 11:04:41 pm
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After a few discussions with people recently regarding VMX in Victoria its becoming clear to me that in some clubs numbers seem to be dropping off, no its not diabolical panic stations yet but it is cause for concern and addressing it is important to those who wish to see the sport continue to grow in this state. So i'd like to know why aren't you racing? I'll make it very clear though, this is not an opportunity to have a cheap shot at a: club, individual, track, policy you don't like etc. Nor does anyone wanna hear pointless nit picking for any reason at all, or to settle an argument. I and others are interested to know why, be as honest as you can in your answer as it will help form some sort idea as to the direction required to seek growth. Are you more keen to ride Vinduros? Is it cost prohibitive for you? Do you think your riding skill level is not of a high enough standard to race? etc etc etc, the more informative and honest you can be the better….
So, why are you not racing??
Cheers, Brendan
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#1 - $$$
#2 - Time to practice to be comfortable out on the track.
#3 - Some of us are our own worst enemies (me), we see lots of models we like so we buy them and then leave ourselves short for time and money to get to events.
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Injury and lack of funds. :'(
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Work every week for me is only three days .... Wed, Sat, Sun .....Notice how inconveniently race meetings are more than mostly on the weekends.......
Still I have four days off every week ;D
and possibly a few relativity annoying personal health matters too, like avoiding having another heart attack..... ::)
And I gotten bloody lazy..... ;)
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Gmc hit it on the head I would say yes to all points I actually went riding this weekend on a mates bike because I didn't have one of my own registered bit upset by that some one with more than 10 bikes should have one registered and ready to go.
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If I pay $280 a year reg I can ride on almost all of Australia and the view is always different.
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As the secretary of Viper here's how I see it, mostly an expense factor with a few other considerations. For us it starts with a $70 membership fee per annum cover the clubs infrastructure & gets you started with M.A. To go racing we have a $70 entry fee which covers (hopefully), the cost of the track preparation, flaggies, first aid, track steward & M.A rider levy. There ain't much left out of that which our club actually keeps. On top of that if you haven't got an M.A race license, you need a one day license @ $55.00, all this to be "covered" by M.A insurance. I don't know anyone who's actually called upon M.A after a racing accident (big or small), & been helped by it, can someone give an example? Throw in fuel, food, accommodation & it's a big expense for average Joe to go racing. We dropped the junior entry fee this year (juniors ride for free) to assist with costs of those who have a number of kids racing as well. Chuck in the bit of pressure people's minds put on them when they hear the word race. I have many conversations with guys who say they just want to ride, not race. It's no wonder the ride parks which are charging $25-$40 to ride all day with no other costs are kicking goals.
I too am a tad gun shy after a huge crash I didn't cause & was left in a world of hurt for some time. Really got me thinking as to why I do it? I have been heard recently saying although I love to ride, I'm not sure I want to race anymore & the costs involved sure sway that in my head.
Mostly a cost thing which is the way of the world these days, every part of life seems to be a money grab by the powers that be.
K
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I do a lot of milage during the week and when the weekend come around I don`t have the interest to drive anywhere.
1. Trying to retain the fire in the belly for racing.
2. $$$$
3. I buy to many bikes, thinking that I can do it all, my slush funds run short, then I starting selling, loose interest, I need to stay and keep one bike only. I am my own worst enemy.
4. cost of entries to high.
5. Far to many tracks.
6. 5-6 Round Victorian State Series. ( thats how it was before the split.) all work together.
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1. Club costs (all insurance body's)
2.Travelling
To many clubs so to all to survive there is a definite need to get heads together to have one central track which would confirm to all classes from pre60 to pre 90 and juniors like Mick just said if the ride parks can do it then there's needs to be some serious thought put into it .
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I race But its really putting a strain on
home duties
funds
time
its had my minister of war and finance confronting me on a number of occasions, and bullshit can only last for so long :-[
Has anyone got any new fabricated stories to help get me through :P
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Personally....all of the above.
My thoughts a few years back were that we should just do more CD and HBBC type events without the hassles of big insurance and bike cover and then just a few "race" type events in each state that lead up to the nationals.
The rest of our riding would be covered on low key "practise" days.
We recently went out to Dalby where the club put on a practise day with sidecars invited. We had 4 or 5 20min sessions with about 40 mins in between each where the solos and minis went out....low cost ($40.00 per outfit) and low key. Started at a reasonable time(9.30) and finished at 3ish.
Best weekend in a long time. Soi much so that the sidecars decided not to do the following club round and went "practising" again instead at Harrisville.
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I race when it suits me and time permits. My main reason not to race is apathy and time restraints. I will do more Vinduro ASAP.
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We had our 1st rd. of our new series yesterday , natural paddock $50.00 for one bike or $60 for as many bikes as you want . No other cost i.e. licencing or anything and if you pre entered then lunch included in the price .
With the format on one bike you get between 5 and 15 races depending on the model and Era.
Regional Prize giving afterwards 1st to 3rd in each class , Classics , Twinshocks and Linkage and 1st 125 recognised as well.
No club membership to pay
No licence fee to pay
Guidelines rather than hard and fast rules and we the rider organisers on the day have the final say there and then on the day .
Entry fee includes series points for big prize giving at end of series
Since last season we reduced the entry fee and are having extra regional races with prizes and numbers were up 30% on last year .
I know its different here but we don't get held up with scrutineering or long winded briefings , so racing can get underway early .
No red tape and no governing body raping the riders so all entry fees go back into running the events .
The Dick Mann theory works well for us ;)
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I am still racing but I am racing less.
Why?
MONEY is the main reason. Maybe the clubs need to get together and run meetings together. Try to reduce their costs and give better value.
The cost of going to a race meeting is not just the entry fee.
Bike prep
Fuel and oil
Travel to the meeting
etc etc.
Then if you want to ride reasonably you need to practice more.
Really it is just a sign of the current times. If you still have a job you may not want to risk injury which could lose you your job.
The clubs just need to give the best value you can.
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Like this Kev see you there ;)
Run by QVMX
19 Oct 2014
QVMX and BMCC Interclub Echo Valley
Race Day - Echo Valley Toowoomba
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Of course this type of racing may not suit everybody
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e204/tmbill/VMX_Hawkes_Bay_2014_118_zpse3887dad.jpg) (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/tmbill/media/VMX_Hawkes_Bay_2014_118_zpse3887dad.jpg.html)
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Like this Kev see you there ;)
Run by QVMX
19 Oct 2014
QVMX and BMCC Interclub Echo Valley
Race Day - Echo Valley Toowoomba
Yes I will be there.
But based on what was posted earlier, why not take the sidecars off the sup-regs and give everyone else 4 laps. Even more value.
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If they do not turn up as you know that could be arranged. lets see what happens on the day.. ;D
money wise the sport is not getting cheaper, all cost keep going up, ambo's, flaggies, tracks, permits ect .
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On top of that if you haven't got an M.A race license, you need a one day license @ $55.00, all this to be "covered" by M.A insurance. I don't know anyone who's actually called upon M.A after a racing accident (big or small), & been helped by it, can someone give an example?
Necessary evil. Without going into detail we are embroiled in a case of a rider that was injured 2 1/2 years ago. The club is not being sued, MV as the organisers are.
The thing is though if we didn't have their insurance it would be the club/volunteers that they would come after. Quite easy lose Monza to them if that was the case.
There is talk of reducing permit/fees but just talk ATM.
An example for you. Club Permit costs $165 (Up to 75 riders) ($265 + $2 per for every rider over 75) We charge $20-$25. We sometimes only get 20 riders. So we might get say $450 from sign in, we pay $165 for permit & $220 in rider levies, total $385 goes to MV, we get $65. Does this seem fair? Sure we can raise the price but we are trying to make it as cheap as possible for our riders to use Monza. We raise the price & we get less riders.
Members/people are going in droves to these ride parks & who can blame them. $50 to ride all day, no segregation (That's good & bad) which means no waiting.
I don't know how to fix it but somehow pricing has to come down. It's not just permit/licences etc. When I first was on the hunt for clubs to do corner marshalling we had them lined up for $350 a day (20+ people). I then had to raise that to $500. Our Western Region cost us $1500, more than what we hire the track out for. It is added to their entry but it is another cost.
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I absolutely LOVE racing be it VMX or modern.......having time out this year due to.....
1.I don't enjoy the long distances you have to drive to get to events.
2. As someone has already mentioned too many bikes to maintain LOL
3.Too many cars Im currently playing with too LOL
4 .I will be hungry to race next year ......so all good cheers Richo
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Entry fees for bike events are a very small part of the cost to go racing. Fuel for the car, fuel for the bike(s), accommodation, food (which is usually more expensive than eating at home), bike maintenance, licence costs, all add to WAY more than the entry fee...
I'm not saying that nobody is feeling the pinch, just that they should have a closer look at where their money actually gets spent when they're complaining about a $5 or 10 increase in entry fees.
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Just done the sums for the Clarkefield Grass track: Total costs to VVMXC -$7219.00. Total takings for the event = $5855 which leaves a $1,364.00 loss to the club. M.A costs equate to $2450 alone.
K
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Just done the sums for the Clarkefield Grass track: Total costs to VVMXC -$7219.00. Total takings for the event = $5855 which leaves a $1,364.00 loss to the club. M.A costs equate to $2450 alone.
K
WOW thats insane!! id be appreciative of knowing either publicly or privately the breakdown of the costs or what component of them is responsible for the majority of the losses to the club. MX clubs running as a charity is not a good thing, there is no need for large profits but those kind of figures will obviously send any organisation/business broke in no time! :(
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I'm all for the club charging what it needs to to run an event. Each and every club has it's own costs.
Venue Hire
Water Truck (when dusty)
Ambulance or First Aid
Insurance
Some even pay for flaggies.
Toilet Hire etc.....
So for me, whatever the club asks for is USUALLY fair and reasonable.
Like Nathan said, the biggest expense is:
FUEL
FOOD
ACCOMMODATION (if you are that way inclined)
RACING LICENSE COST(s)
Bike maintenance is par for the course and it wouldn't matter if you trail ride, free ride or race. It still has to be done.
What gets me is why MA and MV (Victoria) put their hand out every time a club holds a meeting. To me it seems like double dipping.
Surely it would be enough to use the money from racing Licences, be it yearly or a meeting only license, to cover any insurance issue that might arise from some tosser that wants to blame someone else for their mistake. Permanent disability aside, no one should be able to sue anybody for a broken bone or 2.... But that's another topic.
I really can't get my head around any need for a controlling body for old people on old bikes having a bit of argy bargy on motorbike in a paddock for a day or 2. Our days of becoming professional sponsored racers are well and truly behind most, if not, all of us. Why are us recreational racers treated like the pro's?
It's just another bureaucratic money grab to keep these people in a job and it adds to the clubs expense and in turn, our expense.
I say this because it is a Clubs and Riders biggest expense other than the obvious already mentioned.
Keeping costs down and providing decent tracks will get more bums on seats.
Go with the Kiwi's model I reckon!
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sounds like similar reasons to why we stopped racing back in the day . Another could be that some people have done 7 -10 years of VMX and are moving on , again Just as they did when young.
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Just done the sums for the Clarkefield Grass track: Total costs to VVMXC -$7219.00. Total takings for the event = $5855 which leaves a $1,364.00 loss to the club. M.A costs equate to $2450 alone.
K
Im sure the Pro MA mob will be along in a minute to tell me to butt out as I don't live there , aye Col .But anyway as a casual observer from afar you would have to question why the body charged with looking after the sport would rape an event for almost 50% of what the club takes in ???
Big K s figures I don't think allow for the fact that each competitor has already shelled out $$$$$$$$$$$$$ to buy an individual race licence , as he is quoting the club figures. But factor in the revenue taken from each rider for licences and divide that by ( lets be generous and say the average licence holder does 12 events a year ) so 12 and add those figures to the pot and the people rubber stamping the event are on a good thing .
I raised the question as a poll prior to the Connondale classic " what do you get from MA ? " but was asked by Dave Tanner to remove it as it may have been detrimental to that event , so I did .
That particular event is being viscously raped financially as it had to be upgraded from a club meeting to a national meeting and so the MA cost skyrocket. They must print the permits on hand made parchment with 22crt gold leaf to justify the extra cost .
I agree with Nathan that the entry is only a small part of the overall cost of racing , but we are being fuct ( taxed if you like ) on everything we purchase already . It would be nice if you felt that at least those charged with looking after the sports interest would give the enthusiast a fair go .
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Just done the sums for the Clarkefield Grass track: Total costs to VVMXC -$7219.00. Total takings for the event = $5855 which leaves a $1,364.00 loss to the club. M.A costs equate to $2450 alone.
K
I wonder whereand how that $2450 for MA gets delivered back into the VMX side of their money grab? Can anyone give a reasonble explanation as to how it helps fund our sport?
Maybe it's about time MA officials got off their collective fat arses and started coming to race meetings and do some flag duties or water a track for the club...That way they don't have to justify why that get so much money for doing sweet FA. Or don't they have time in between flights to various other major race meetings all over the world as "delegates" for Australian motorcycle sport?
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The figures do include MA one day licenses, it is an expense and has to be accounted for.
Here is the break down of the weekends event.
Total takings: entry fees, one day rec & race licenses plus a few one day memberships: $5855
Costs to run the event:
Venue hire: $2000
First aid: $900
Flaggies: $775
Steward: $200
CFA: $200
Toilet Hire: $430
Trophies: $275
MA permit: $150
MA rider levies: $539
MA one day licenses: $1750
Total cost: $7219
Balance = -$1364.00 (DB) to Viper club.
That's without taking into account any personal expense by all the workers & volunteers to whom much thanks is warranted & their time & effort much appreciated. For the most part, the weekend was a big success with those who love grass track racing, having a ball. The racing was close with some ding dong battles by a few. While we don't expect to make huge dollars by running events, clubs should be able to at least break even which seems to be becoming increasingly difficult of late.
K
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our old mates at the MA announced $56 000 in prize money for 2014 ASBK (superbikes), where is the prize$$$ for all the different
dirt bike comps. that are way more supported in rider numbers and $$$ fees back to MA.
compare entering aust. offroad champs to U.S GNCC (similar enduro/multi lap event) MA license $290 US ama license $49
per round entry fee inc transponder oz $195 u.s. $50 .
raced post classic nats,crawford river classic and conondale classic this year $290 license about $540 entry fees total- riding time about
6 hours (2 bikes-3 to 4 classes) plus travel costs etc etc etc ,its f..king expensive bum on seat time .
as one "not racing anymore" friend said- 'for the same $$ thats two weeks in Thailand with some miss world quality pros thrown in".
AT least he still wants to ride.
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Converting some more of my MXers to Vinduro bikes.
eg. Toowoomba MCC Murphy's Creek Vinduro weekend.
$50 for 2 Days (I did 8x45min loops on the SL125 - That's 6 hours of quality dirt riding).
(MA licence or a single event available)
Free camping, free firewood, real toilet.
Sweep riders, qualified first aid on-hand.
Friendly organisers & participants.
No pressures, except your own desire to push it.
Really Great FUN, and I ride dirt-bikes for the fun.
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Those costs sure add up for the events no good for the club I assume would not be able to sustain losses like that.
For me I am just getting back into riding and not really into racing.
I am a member of viper & vcm but I am not sure I would go again mainly the cost of the racing licence is too expensive & couple with event costs makes it not so good bang for your buck.
I don't mind the club cost as I know people are working hard in the back ground.
Am building a vinduro bike at the min as they look like more casual events and more my speed.
Events veri run look really good and lots of fun.
I do go to ride park a lot is $40 a day and you get a fully prepped track.
Try to get to the midweek days as it's not so busy.
Not saying there is anything wrong with the racing tracks as again people work on them all for nicks I expect and do a great job.
I went to Monza Park earlier in the year for the ride day was great fun I really enjoyed it.
Maybe viper should try a couple of days like that, I mean non competitive and see how they are attended.
Cheers Rob
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I think its time that the viper, CSC, VCM, pull together, and go back to the original formula, the day vintage MX started, which was 6 rounds of the victorian titles.
Viper select 2 of there best tracks, VCM, 2 of there best tracks, CSC 2 of there best tracks. and cut down the classes. and work out a suitable entry fees, and find a suitable insurance. and run all the meetings under aasa, or other. and stop paying these land owners stupid money too.
Track lease for the day.
Gellibrand was $500
Campbelltown was $500
Barrabool $1000 natural terrain (MA)
Lismore is peanuts.
I think this could be all worked out sensibly, but not on here. A meeting should be on neutral ground, and thrash it out. ( no other race meeting in between , just 6 rounds all discipline, same day or 2 day weekend)
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The figures do include MA one day licenses, it is an expense and has to be accounted for.
Here is the break down of the weekends event.
Total takings: entry fees, one day rec & race licenses plus a few one day memberships: $5855
Costs to run the event:
Venue hire: $2000 :o :o
First aid: $900
Flaggies: $775 ???
Steward: $200 :o
CFA: $200 ???
Toilet Hire: $430
Trophies: $275 ???
MA permit: $150
MA rider levies: $539
MA one day licenses: $1750
Total cost: $7219
Balance = -$1364.00 (DB) to Viper club.
That's without taking into account any personal expense by all the workers & volunteers to whom much thanks is warranted & their time & effort much appreciated. For the most part, the weekend was a big success with those who love grass track racing, having a ball. The racing was close with some ding dong battles by a few. While we don't expect to make huge dollars by running events, clubs should be able to at least break even which seems to be becoming increasingly difficult of late.
K
crazy $$$ :'( for your club
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If they do not turn up as you know that could be arranged. lets see what happens on the day.. ;D
money wise the sport is not getting cheaper, all cost keep going up, ambo's, flaggies, tracks, permits ect .
I was using a bit of reverse phycology. I think Sidecar riders are like kids, if you tell them not to do something they do it anyway.
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I believe the main thing to come out of this is cost, is the biggest factor.
Just another note. Some clubs can afford to charge less if they own their own land or they a have club member willing to donate the use of the land.
eg To my knowledge Toowoomba MCC own the land they use. I believe they bought the land from the money they made running Mountain Man MX in the 70s and 80s.
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With me its having to go back to being self employed . As a owner driver one man show even a small injury is going to be a big pain in the back pocket .
Second my club here in Tassie , merged with a modern club and the VMX riders numbers have been dropping ever since ( and on a personal level I hate prima donna kids the club seems to me to have 80% under 25 years old )
Third , ok to you main landers ( as an ex mainlander I cant believe Im saying this ) from my place to the clubs track its about 240 ks each way . To get there to help at 08:00 then race (flag as if you don't bring a flaggy you have to help ) then pack up wait for presentation as all the kiddies need a gift , finish time around 16:00 then 2 to 3 hrs home unload . then up at 05:00 to start work .
For the Last 2 years I have gone to Broadford at Easter and I will be going again next year .
Don't get me wrong I would still like to race but Im finding collecting and restoration with play rides like CD and BBB are more fun .
Just a note Im 54 years old have had a quad bypass and work 70 hrs a week . So busting my arse to get to a race is somewhat not a big priority it once was . When at the last 3 meets I have been to I have had to flag for at least 1.5 hrs while the Kiddies show up 20 min before racing and leave after their last race no set up , no flagging , no packing up . then the club does not even run pre 70 .
Iain
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Cost is, of course, one factor.
But this isn't the 1930's, most of use can choose what we want to spend our disposable dollars on.
Dropping the Foxtel subscription will cover the MA licence fee. (but who's going to do that?)
For me it's a matter of the amount of 'pleasure return' on my time, costs, effort, frustration & pain of owning, building, maintaining and competing on vintage dirt bikes.
I work away, my schedule is erratic and prone to change within days.
I rarely enter for events until the last possible moment, to guarantee that I will actually be able to be there and my bikes will be ready to ride. ( Sign-on 'on the day' was once common, but is disappearing due to the organisational pressures)
I miss a lot of events, multi round championships have little draw, as I know I will never manage to attend all the rounds.
[/quote] eg To my knowledge Toowoomba MCC own the land they use. [/quote]
TMCC do own a great chunk of land and are developing their facilities.
They also charge a 'significant' membership fee, and they have hundreds of members. (Me too, soon).
It's a model for success that's worth considering.
I love racing VMX (have since Dargle in 1991) and will always compete when I can, but the harder it gets, the easier it is to find an excuse to do something else, particularly if it means more riding time. (Sounds a lot like why I took up riding enduro's in the 80's)
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Wow, approaching 1000 views and 3 pages of conversation in less than 24 hours. Obviously a topic that many are happy to give their take on, please continue to put your opinions and feedback out there for all to absorb, it really is helpful to those looking for ways to improve and grow attendance at events.
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I have to ask the question. Why do you need to have MA involved? surly in OZ the land of insurance for everthing you could get a collective cover etc that MA "provides" ? everything else they are there for is fluff.The only difference it seems to me between here in NZ and OZ is the fear you have of being sued , cover that and tell MA to go play in the traffic.
The numbers involved in VMX in OZ should easily be able to become a collective on this.
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Australia is FAR more litigous than UnZud.
Any event organiser needs good insurance cover for two reasons:
1. To cover their arse(s);
2. To be gain permission to run the event.
Basically, the way its evolved is that someone gets hurt and then chases who-ever has the most cash. So if the host club is poor, they go after the Clerk of Course personally, or the land-owner, another rider or whoever else they think is the softest, juciest target. Even if they are unsuccessful in their claim, the stress and cost is enough that NOBODY will be willing to stick their head into the noose ever again.
So instead, we pay a truckload in insurance to be a big, soft, juicy target for the ambulance chaser lawyers.
There was a case in Orange, NSW about 15 years ago where a guy crashed and died in his Mini at an organised event. After some years, his widow began looking for cash. After the organising club simply disolved in response to the threat of legal action, the widow and her ambulance chaser ended up trying to sue the then-retired local police commander who had given the event the OK. Needless to say, the new commander was not the slightest bit interested in approving any vaguely-similar events within his command area, and virtually everything stopped for a couple of years until he could be convinced that CAMS/AMSAG insurance was going to be a bigger, softer target than himself...
In most Aussie states, disclaimers mean sod-all. The law changed in NSW about a decade ago so NSW disclaimers mean something - if you sign a disclaimer in NSW that says 'I recognise and understand the risks', it takes away a whole lot of the paths to claim that your crash was someone else's fault. This makes the whole process of suing someone for negligence much more difficult/much more likely to fail, but (ironically) it still hasn't been tested properly - it needs someone to put up the cash and fail before everyone puts their faith in the power of the disclaimer...
Also, good intentions to not sue mean nothing when you've got many thousands of dollars worth of bills to pay and no way of paying them (insert a rant about the NDIS here). Similarly, you might recognise that your crash was your own fault, but your widow (or widower) probably won't have that same perspective.
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Time and money! I spend too much time working on them.
It is still cheap compared to other motor sports but..... one of the reasons I got into old bikes is because thats all I could afford at the time. Now people want stupid money for what is essentially a clapped out old dunger! And it hard and expensive to get parts.
Iv been doing lots of Vinduros one reason being value for money you cant beat it. Also if all the clubs did more interclubs or invites it would save me having to be a member of many clubs because I love all eras and styles of riding, MX to Vinduro, pre75 to pre 95. ;D
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This is one of the rare times I agree totally with what Nathan has said.
Also have a good look at what the costs are to run a meeting outlined in a couple of previous posts. The money paid to MA (through the SCB) is not the largest amount. For clubs who hire a track (or property) that part and first aid are the big cost. Also try getting the use of someone's property without the insurance coverage MA provide for the property owner.
For those riders who only get a one meeting licence each time. If you rider 5 or more meetings a year an annual licence is cheaper. You can also use it at practice days and MA sanctioned ride parks.
Anyway I think the drop off in numbers is a sign of the times. Clubs and MA should try to improve also, but as riders also try to help you club.
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Quote Nathan S "Also, good intentions to not sue mean nothing when you've got many thousands of dollars worth of bills to pay and no way of paying them (insert a rant about the NDIS here). Similarly, you might recognise that your crash was your own fault, but your widow (or widower) probably won't have that same perspective"
This is always the Elephant in the room we ignore over here , we rely on disclaimers and the fact that nobody will go the landowner etc , but it is getting harder to get property's with this being the general reason .
Of course we have the accident compensation corporation
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2001/0049/latest/DLM99494.html
Witch makes life easier .
Different countries and different philosophy's.
We have a motorcycle sport governing body that we as vintage riders choose not to align with as we feel they cannot offer us anything .
Any reduced cost is a help to any competitor .
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I might add . after reading this today I thought it was about time I get off my arse and get a new National license.
After hitting the MA website to find out more I find out it is still the same as it was in seventies. In other words just to much trouble and my apathy wins. In this day and age why cant I just fill in an online form pay by CC and get my new license in the post next week?
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I also agree with Nathan...yet again ::)
If the disclaimers we sign (or used to as some clubs don't bother anymore) actually stood up in court, then there would be no need for MA to impose ridiculous fees on any club to hold a meeting. Rider levies.... COME ON, that's just like a fuel levy, and nobody liked that! because it was just another unfair tax. Isn't the cost of a race license (National, Recreation or Day) already a rider levy? Crikey, MA licenses are more expensive than getting a license to drive a car or truck.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't way more people get injured or killed on the road than any motorcycle sport? And don't get me started on the number of injuries EVERY weekend involving AFL......
Doesn't MA have it's own insurance business now? Surely if it wasn't a profitable business to be in, MA wouldn't have touched it. The point is, seeing as MA IS THE INSURER, why do they charge the clubs so much to run an event?
I think it's grossly unfair that the top level of motorcycle sport is subsidised by us recreational, part time racers.
GET REAL MA. GIVE SOMETHING BACK TO THE BACKBONE OF MOTORCYCLE SPORT.... Club riders are the backbone!
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GET REAL MA. GIVE SOMETHING BACK TO THE BACKBONE OF MOTORCYCLE SPORT.... Club riders are the backbone!
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q747/Slakewell1/cickets_zps8e859d43.gif)
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As much as I love VMX, I've been going trail riding most weekends on a current model 2T enduro bike which is just awesome, bought S/H for $7500 (less than most VMX bikes that are properly set up) & it costs about $15 for a day out. I don't have to pay an entry fee, buy a race license or pay a rider levy. I know this is not helping our VMX cause but it's really playing with my mind in regard to VMX racing.
K
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Due to injuries and the spiralling costs, like Big K says, trail riding is the way to go.... Might have to buy another KTM 300.
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At the moment these Vinduro's are cheap and free of BS, and a great gathering of like mined friends, definitely an extension of a trail ride with mates. Their popularity clearly shown by quick growth and patronage.
Last weekend saw a major blitzz in one of Newcastle's favorite state forest weekend ride locations. The fines for being unregoed, unlicensed and uninsured staggering.
In hindsight, a hell of a lot cheaper to be full road compliant or do Vinduros instead.
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And then the cherry on the Vinduro cake is being free to bring along as many unregistered bikes as you please.
Your camp is in a relaxed environment and secure as well, with Amboes on the ready, hard to beat that one.
Most have some level of catering and amenities too, all positives.
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I think Nathan's last post spells out what most of us have always suspected and wondered about,
the grey area of litigation should such a claim of injury or loss ever come up and be tested before the bench.
It is the uncertain cloud above that we are all aware of.
If the Bench were to ever rule in favor of the claimant, against the Land Owner or Organaisers,,
it would then become more than likely impossible to find willing venues. A Death to future dirt gatherings.
This is not an injury in the work place due to employer negligence.
I imagine most of us would prefer to know that Land Owners and Organisers would be protected for their assistance and good will.
I would like to see the sign-able waiver contain something that in the event of personal injury or loss that it puts the onus onto the entrant, if it were possible.
"It is the responsibility of the entrant to choose and provide his/her own levels of private Ambulance, Medical, Income and life insurance."
Maybe that sentence needs to be worded differently in the world of Ambo Chasers, but you get my point.
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We have guys from all over the world on this forum, so what do the Yanks do? they are the most litigious of them all, so how do they cope with it and what does it cost them to race?
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how does the isle of man keep going? does anyone know? they seem to have deaths every year.
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We have guys from all over the world on this forum, so what do the Yanks do? they are the most litigious of them all, so how do they cope with it and what does it cost them to race?
I raced in the states about 15 yrs ago , was handed a sheet of A4 with the AMA rules on at the gate in it ,signed in on the day , paid a few quid ( cant remember how much but it was bugger all ) and went racing .
Was easier and cheaper than here :o
A few of us used to love coming over there to race , but it has got all a bit silly with the red tape and the cost of it . Its a bloody shame as Red tape and associated cost of that red tape aside , your class structure, passion for racing and socialising , std of racing and numbers in fields is a dream for us .
Its still achievable but its a once a year thing rather than 3 or 4 times a year , and airfares are the same as they were 30 yrs ago give or take a $ . CD is still the most value for money for us by a country mile :)
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I'm not an MX rider, never was and most likely never will be.
The distance to travel to VMX events I just don't feel is worth the effort to start now. (I live near Wollongong)
I see constant bitching about VMX on this site and this makes me want to run as far as I can. (this is my own opinion, not yours)
I have raced the Sunshine Coast's Vintage Enduro sprint this year (and last) at Conondale and have raced in a number of modern format AORC / NSWORC events this year also.
The modern events seem to be all about riding in ruts, logs, rocks & dust in various combinations, good competition but some of the events aren't much fun. Having said that the Kyogle Dirt Bike Club ran a round of the AORC and put on a fantastic enjoyable event (some of their members ride Vinduro and know what a good course is all about).
The Vinduro format is fun, some have too many rules attached to them, but they still are fun for a non competitive trail ride. (Vinduro sounds like its a Vintage Enduro but its just a trail ride)
And my point...drum role....I believe the SCMCC's Vintage Enduro Sprint Format is perfect for those that want to compete. The format is simple, trail ride around the course on Saturday and a sprint format race on Sunday. The sprint format is old body friendly, the course isn't too difficult in fact is pretty fast and flowing and a heap of fun to ride. Sort your bike and mates out on Saturday, bench race all afternoon / evening and race for sheep stations on Sunday :) Grab an event license if you haven't got proper license and away you go. Easy as.
It would be great to get an East Coast Series going again, and I for one would travel to participate.
So what do you think, would combining the successful Vinduro format with a competitive ride be a way forward? A way to satisfy that competitive urge and still have fun?
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We have guys from all over the world on this forum, so what do the Yanks do? they are the most litigious of them all, so how do they cope with it and what does it cost them to race?
My understanding is that the US will fight all claims where as here they will just cave in.
It's only people that own stuff that get sued by the no win no pay brigade and it costs too much to defend it yourself and then if you do win the other party will be too broke to pay your costs.
If these lawyers had to pay the costs if they lost a no win no pay claim it may be a different thing but they all look after themselves anyway so even if a partial claim is accepted then you have to wear the costs of defending which could be your house.
Organizing events can be full on at times and the last thing volunteers need is to be reading the fine print of insurance policys so MA is the easy option.
It's a bit like insurance on your car, if something happens you just handball it to the insurance company and let them stress over it.
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Uuummmh,, Budgeting Insurance fee's,,,pain in the ass, but good to have when it hits the fan though.
I spent over a grand on insurances a couple of weeks ago, a small part of my yearly insurance costs.
part of that being $350 for boat insurance with only $10K replacement value, a figure that is virtually insignificant to the true value of acquisition, depreciation and maintenance costs.
For me that $350 premium is all about purchasing and maintaining $20,000,000 public liability cover, just in case shit happens.
The price of keeping your ass covered and the roof over your head.
And if it is your ass? I reckon the onus should be on you, to provide your own cover for it.
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Understand about the insurance thing , but why do you have to go through MA for it ?
Don't MA own their own insurance company ? If so the surely they would be seeking out the best possible deals for their members ???
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A lot of the "MA fees" based arguments are relevant, but please don't go down the path of making this another MA bashing thread wholly and solely. The points are very valid but i don't believe its the catalyst for the downturn in numbers. Some fantastic points being raised here though, thank you. Keep the conversation going :)
Cheers, Brendan
FWIW i am neither pro nor anti MA, i believe there could be a better way for us to do it but also accept there really isn't another way to exist without them at the moment.
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Happy riding the vinduro's, great organised rides basically, no stress, easy fees to enter and great bunch of blokes to ride with. the vic events to date have had the challenges and distances to make it a great ride for all from die hard old enduro riders who still live in the era of the "Alpine" and the "Stockmans" events etc that slaughtered riders and bikes in the late 70's and early 80's to the casual riders who roared around the bush on pe's and IT's and are out re-finding that freedom.
big sentence from me!
I just cant be bothered to lift to a racing level in either vmx or pony xpress, too unfit, too much $ to get the bike how I would want it (my tyres are 3years old) so the laid back (its my problem only) Vinduro is a breath of fresh air requiring a red plate and licence...got them.
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The reason I don't race is simple, there is no race class in Victoria for what I love to ride and that is Vintage Enduro bikes, if there was racing for Vintage Enduro bikes Pre 2000, Pre 95 Pre 90, Pre 85 Pre 80 in a pony express style on private property with no registration required ( just like modern events are held on now ) I would get to every race I could possible make it to, in fact I would be happy to travel up to 800k's in any direction from were I live to be involved in a Vintage Enduro Race Series over a year.
Regards Mick.
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"Don't MA own their own insurance company ? If so the surely they would be seeking out the best possible deals for their members ???"
Apparently MA do have their own insurance and until recently that company had only one shareholder and he ran the business and he was head of MA......look that one up and see where the money has gone.
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Understand about the insurance thing , but why do you have to go through MA for it ?
Don't MA own their own insurance company ? If so the surely they would be seeking out the best possible deals for their members ???
CAMS, AASA, and AMSAG all get their insurance through someone in London. AASA and AMSAG had both seperately looked for other options and found that the only place they could buy adequate cover is the one company in London.
I don't pretend to know anything much about MA's insurance, but I will be quite surprised if they self-insure their events. It's much more likely that MA is operating as a broker.
AASA is a viable option, but because MA doesn't rape us as blatantly as CAMS do, the AASA can't undercut MA the way that they can undercut CAMS.
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2 weeks ago I entered the excellant thumpercross old school grass track. It cost me $170 for the day just to get on the track ($80 entry $20 transponder hire $15 purchase transponder bracket $55 one day licence.) I got 5 races on a great very fast flowing track great day but exy.
I agree with the trail riding crowd its great value. As much as I love it I cannot justify the expense at my stage of life with 2 little Hoony's and other financial committments.
So for me its a luxury to drag Big Red out for a Blatt every now and again.
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Here is another reason... 8)
http://forum.ozvmx.com/index.php?topic=36010.0;topicseen
check the last page....
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It's all down to the mighty dollar wasp has the right idea I would think when vmx started all blokes wanted to do was ride there old bikes and maybe a race or two then a beer and a laugh.some where someone thought there's money to be made from these blokes and here we are :)
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It's all down to the mighty dollar wasp has the right idea I would think when vmx started all blokes wanted to do was ride there old bikes and maybe a race or two then a beer and a laugh.some where someone thought there's money to be made from these blokes and here we are :)
yes that is the truth i reckon and i hear what eml is saying , nathan as well. Who is the one company in london ? Just curious.
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I'm not racing cos none of you bastards will let me win! >:(
Seriously, though... Most of the same reasons that have already been listed here: money and time being the main factors. Actually a complete lack of mx ability means that the pull for me to go VMX racing just isn't there. I did a few seasons with VIPER, in the early 2000s fooling around at the tail end of the field. It was great fun with a great bunch of people, but once vinduros came along I knew I'd found my niche. Getting to as many vinduros as I can means that vintage mx just isn't on my radar right now.
I had grand plans of doing some club level modern pony express events this year but it never happened (see "money & time" above).
Interesting discussion thus far I must say.
Tex
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I knew someone was going to ask that, but I'm stuffed if I can recall the name. It may even be a broker, given the way big dollar insurance works.
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450 riders at the Aussie Classic Road Racing Titles paid $600 to enter.
There's money around, plenty of it. Maybe our product just is not worth it to so many.
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450 riders at the Aussie Classic Road Racing Titles paid $600 to enter.
There's money around, plenty of it. Maybe our product just is not worth it to so many.
but do they get more than 3 x 3 lap races for the money . Iain
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When I got into VMX, it was about revisiting old memories more than anything. I bought some bikes, went to some races and Classic Dirts, bought up all the old magazines and some other stuff. But as time went by I found that the racing got more serious and I got slower. In the end, it wasn't fun. Then I rediscovered dirt track, and that's pretty much all I do now, on a modern bike. But I still have my IT175 and hope to ride the occasional vinduro in the future, a helluva lot of fun and more my style!
Plus I spent an entire decade's vmx racing budget rebuilding my 250F after it shat itself... ::)
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I am not real good on an MX track , but I do like to ride around a lot all day, so Vinduro suits Me fine.
You also get a lot of ride time for your money .
Regards ,
Steve
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Why do I still race????
Because I enjoy the competition. I can no longer win but if the races were 1 lap long I could.
I also enjoy meeting different people etc. I'm not worried about how many races I get etc.
Yes MA does own their own insurance company MAIL (Motorcycling Australia Insurance Limited). The company is based on the Isle of Man for tax reasons. The main reason MA formed a company was they couldn't get insurance at one stage. Like any insurance company they farm the risk out. As for giving the members the best deal they can, the last increase in insurance was last year and that was after several years with no increase. Does you car insurance stay the same every year?
Entry numbers are down in all Motorsport. Money is harder to come by.
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Regardless of what your passion is, Vinduro, Trials, VMX or modern National MX/ Enduro, we are being ripped off by MA. They have their collective greedy fingers in every slice of the pie and I for one reckon enough is enough. They (MA) give absolutely NOTHING back to us grass roots riders but yet fund hundreds of thousands of dollars to the top echelons of motorcycle sport. As long as that particular section of the sport attracts the manufacturers AND heaps of media coverage they will be there.... IN PERSON[/i].... to tell all and sundry just how good they are at keeping motorcycling sport in Australia alive and prospering. What a crock of crap.
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We can talk until blue in our face on here, something needs to be done, and I would like to see a AGM meeting to be organized before the end of the year with the CSC club on neutral ground
in Geelong. Once we solve our Club issue. Then I would like to see the VCM, Viper, CSC get together and has a meeting also on neutral ground to discuss the future of VMX.
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Re Iain's question, I don't know how many races the road guys get for the $600, but if you have say a side pipe CZ and had entered a recent Classic MX Nats you could enter, Pre70 and Pre75 open and Pre75 Age, giving 3 rounds by 3 races per round by 3 laps (SA) so 9 races.
Arguably a competitive Classic MX bike is half (or less) the cost of a road race equivalent , buy two MXers and double your rides So 18 races, say entry $100, extra bike $20, a couple of transponders $40,total $160.
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Listed my PE 250 twice, no takers, all tyre kickers, roll her back in the shed and finish her off when I can.
Listed my Rm 125 for the 2nd time, no takers, bring her home, and park it.
With all what happening with VMX and the CSC club, no wonder the flame in my belly is nearly out regarding racing, l try to keep it going.
I often think about chunking all in, a have a go at classic road racing, I just don`t know, I have talked to a lot of road racing people about it. Its hard to keep going when the pockets are not full of bread.
Question Mark ???????????????????????
For a start Dave, you don't race anymore....you are well known as a buyer and seller. You find all the good bikes but don't ever appear at a race with them anywhere.
Secondly, this thread isn't about how hard it is to sell a bike these days....IT'S ABOUT WHY YOU DON'T RACE.
If you were so concerned about where the CSC is heading, maybe you should've come (gone) to more GM's in the last 5 years to voice your opinion(s). NO POINT IN TALKING OUT OF SCHOOL......
Yes, it is hard to keep on racing when the pockets aren't full of "bread", as you say, but you either want to have a great time racing with like minded people or you don't. Me, I'd rather a crappy day out racing ( Broken bike, forgotten spares, bad starts..etc.) than sitting around a coffee table wondering what I should do with my day.
My day out racing would be a whole lot more affordable IF MA wasn't involved. IF you think that VMX is expensive, get yourself involved with road racing....MA has their greedy paws even deeper there.
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We can talk until blue in our face on here, something needs to be done, and I would like to see a AGM meeting to be organized before the end of the year with the CSC club on neutral ground
in Geelong. Once we solve our Club issue. Then I would like to see the VCM, Viper, CSC get together and has a meeting also on neutral ground to discuss the future of VMX.
Again I say DAVE, If you were that concerned, you would of attended YOUR clubs (CSC) AGM's and voiced your opinions there. I was pretty much the only person voicing that we (all Vic VMX clubs) need to get some sort of agreement together at CSC meetings and we both know where that lead....I was shown the door. Unless you want to be a positive influence on what has been asked in this thread, go back to selling bikes!
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This really is becoming a wealth of info and feedback to draw on, BUT please keep it constructive guys. It stated from the outset that it wasn't a place to air personal grievances or point a finger, of course you're entitled to your opinions and this is exactly the right place to share them. Just consider what is and isn't useful feedback, what could or couldn't possibly help the situation. :)
Cheers, Brendan
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This really is becoming a wealth of info and feedback to draw on, BUT please keep it constructive guys. It stated from the outset that it wasn't a place to air personal grievances or point a finger, of course you're entitled to your opinions and this is exactly the right place to share them. Just consider what is and isn't useful feedback, what could or couldn't possibly help the situation. :)
Cheers, Brendan
Apologies Brendan.... I got sucked into the vortex ::)
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me too brendan, l am frustrated, I need to shag something :P
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This really is becoming a wealth of info and feedback to draw on, BUT please keep it constructive guys. It stated from the outset that it wasn't a place to air personal grievances or point a finger, of course you're entitled to your opinions and this is exactly the right place to share them. Just consider what is and isn't useful feedback, what could or couldn't possibly help the situation. :)
Cheers, Brendan
Apologies Brendan.... I got sucked into the vortex ::)
Cheers Mark.
me too brendan, l am frustrated, I need to shag something :P
I hope all the stray animals of Drysdale are safely locked away tonight!! ;D ;D
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Apologies Brendan.... I got sucked into the vortex ::)
me too brendan, l am frustrated, I need to shag something :P
I hope all the stray animals of Drysdale are safely locked away tonight!! ;D ;D
[/quote]
A whole new Vortex is about to open up, and not event the vortex will be safe :o
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We can talk until blue in our face on here, something needs to be done, and I would like to see a AGM meeting to be organized before the end of the year with the CSC club on neutral ground
in Geelong. Once we solve our Club issue. Then I would like to see the VCM, Viper, CSC get together and has a meeting also on neutral ground to discuss the future of VMX.
Again I say DAVE, If you were that concerned, you would of attended YOUR clubs (CSC) AGM's and voiced your opinions there. I was pretty much the only person voicing that we (all Vic VMX clubs) need to get some sort of agreement together at CSC meetings and we both know where that lead....I was shown the door. Unless you want to be a positive influence on what has been asked in this thread, go back to selling bikes!
TBM, I think you can leave my selling of bikes out of all this, its my business, and it doesn't need to be aired on here all the time, me being the member that Started the CSC club, and the president at the time, we stewart young and Rod Macdonald alway felt that when new blood came into the club, it was time for others to take over the reins, last year I went to the AGM meeting hoping that someone would nominate me, but it did not happen, and I walked away from that meeting thinking that I wasn't wanted. ( some of the member where getting clicky, and I don`t like that in a club, and I am not the only member that felt that way. So this year I refused to go and I had very good reasons too. I am one member that does not want the CSC club to fold, the club is suffering and if I got back into it I will take it back to the format the way it started in the first place.
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me too brendan, l am frustrated, I need to shag something :P
Relist your dodgy A model you may get to shag someone with that Oops that was unconstructive ::)
But an aging rider base ( and generally a negative vibe to young riders coming into the sport from the older guys )
Cost
Red tape
The fact that a lot of us have either been racing since we were kids with out much of a break , or we have revisited the sport and relived our youth .
Other 2 wheel interest ( Trail riding , Vinduros, collecting, restoring etc )
A lot of negative feedback on forums ( but not necessarily in the real world )
Having to jump through hoops for officials with their own agendas
Cant win anymore
I think all these things are contributing factors
For me it will be the last one , as if I feel I cant cut it what's the point in racing ??? would still trail ride etc but racing is a competition and therefore I want to win .
We have watered down the classes with age groups etc to the point where winning some is akin to being the worlds tallest Dwarf , but hey a wins a win and im happy to be a 5'11" Dwarf ;D
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I knew someone was going to ask that, but I'm stuffed if I can recall the name. It may even be a broker, given the way big dollar insurance works.
Lloyds of London ?
Bingo. Thank you.
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But an aging rider base ( and generally a negative vibe to young riders coming into the sport from the older guys )
Cost
Red tape
The fact that a lot of us have either been racing since we were kids with out much of a break , or we have revisited the sport and relived our youth .
Other 2 wheel interest ( Trail riding , Vinduros, collecting, restoring etc )
A lot of negative feedback on forums ( but not necessarily in the real world )
Having to jump through hoops for officials with their own agendas
Cant win anymore
I see a lot of all of the above.
Maybe the sport is about to pay the price for being so Baby-Boomer-centric for so long?
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Part of the answer to improving rider numbers is leaning more towards it being a family sport.
The women's class helps, but dare I say it maybe it is time for junior classes. 80/85cc bikes are vintage MX bikes too. Having adults racing them is just bullshit.
A family that plays together stays together.
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I dont need a junior class as my kids are now grown up. Does seem to have a place right now that works well with in Heaven meetings. Just a junior class will not fix much IMO as most of us now have grown up kids.
More focus on social ridding seems to be working. Why cant you run something like the Nats with a social ride days Thursday/Friday? Competitors get extra practice and the just social guys can ride and then watch?
In my perfect world if run somewhere like Conondale. You could even throw in a Vinduro and have a old school cross country race on the Vinduro course Friday arvo.
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Yes I believe the social side is very important. If I only went to meetings to ride I probably wouldn't go.
I believe the older classes Pre 60 and Pre 65 and maybe even Pre 70, need to move away for the race side of things and be a concourse with points awarded etc and then a race or two with a handicap based on the age of the rider and bike combined. Try to bring the older riders back.
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I dont need a junior class as my kids are now grown up. Does seem to have a place right now that works well with in Heaven meetings. Just a junior class will not fix much IMO as most of us now have grown up kids.
And I guess this mentality is a little where the problem lies, YOU may have grown up kids so this wouldn't help you get to more meetings. But we're not aiming at the same old crowd, to prosper would be to yield a crop of new riders, riders who are 30-50 not 50 plus. This is the age bracket most of you were when you started racing VMX, these are the guys who will bring young kids as well, maybe even the missus and play as a family. If the whole family is involved its a far more justified expense. The idea of these kids riding pre 90 bikes is also ludicrous, lets just let them ride around their modern mini bikes and enjoy the day. This is not a shot at the over 50s or the guys racing for a long time, you can chose to take it that way if you like but it's just not. I have said it many times that making changes to appeal to more riders in the 50-65 yo bracket will do as little to keep the sport going as remaining status quo.
Cheers, Brendan
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I believe MA charges extra if juniors are on the race schedule. However, if the juniors are having a "recreation ride" only, the cost is reduced I think.
Letting the juniors have a ride is a great thing for the future of MX as a sport and it helps the club to hopefully at least break even for running an event. Even if the kids are on modern bikes, some of them might develop an interest in old bikes.
VCM here in Victoria has a pretty good formula for making an event worthwhile to run. They not only allow minibikes, (mostly XR Hondas) but they also allow the pitbike lads to have a run as well. The Pitbike boys love having somewhere to race and put on some really good racing. Then we have the big bikes, Pre70, Pre75, Pre78 and Evolution classes.
I feel like a rider gets good value for money at a VCM race day, especially if you have more than 1 class of bike.
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Yes I believe the social side is very important. If I only went to meetings to ride I probably wouldn't go.
I believe the older classes Pre 60 and Pre 65 and maybe even Pre 70, need to move away for the race side of things and be a concourse with points awarded etc and then a race or two with a handicap based on the age of the rider and bike combined. Try to bring the older riders back.
If you the races between Greg Leany and John Selva on their old bikes, a 1964 Greeves and a 1956 AJS respectively, you would change your mind on that. For many, seeing those 2 go at it bar to bar for 3 laps was a highlight of the weekend at Clarkefield.
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I currently don't get to race as much due to working overseas - however this is about to change and will be returning. I will though concentrate on the meetings that suit me - such as VMXWA and Classic do - get out for a ride, as much as I want, short races to suit the old body, no points and all good fun. Am being put off by the guys who think I shouldn't go to a meeting because it has to be for sheep stations and everybody race as if they were 21 again - and that isn't a whinge at them - just drives my decision making.
I suppose the old adage - ride on Sunday and make work on Monday and catch up with my mates.
Oh hang on - sounds a bit Vinduro to me ;D
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Yes I believe the social side is very important. If I only went to meetings to ride I probably wouldn't go.
I believe the older classes Pre 60 and Pre 65 and maybe even Pre 70, need to move away for the race side of things and be a concourse with points awarded etc and then a race or two with a handicap based on the age of the rider and bike combined. Try to bring the older riders back.
If you the races between Greg Leany and John Selva on their old bikes, a 1964 Greeves and a 1956 AJS respectively, you would change your mind on that. For many, seeing those 2 go at it bar to bar for 3 laps was a highlight of the weekend at Clarkefield.
It's definitely possible for the older bikes to put on a great race.
But more and more of the older bikes are being parked up, usually because the bike and/or rider is being saved for special events.
This is particularly apparent in the pre-75 eras, but you can see it in Pre-78 and even a bit in Evo.
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So…..Why are you NOT racing??? It is not compulsory yet . Or is it ?
Of course it's not compulsory Walter, never was and never will be we all know that. So other than being provocative and looking for a clip back your way I'm not quite sure of the purpose of your statement/question..... :o
Cheers, Brendan
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I see a few saying the younger riders are the future of the sport . Ok a view from a grumpy over 50 with no kids . Before some of you scream hear me out then you can have a reply .
Apart from a few (frosty) what ties do a 20 to 30 year old have with vintage bikes . In most cases dad builds it or its borrowed then raced and usually far harder than its used to . Have a look at the state of a bike when its given back to dad to fix .
As far as " Im not going to win so I won't play " bloody hell even getting into the top 10 in a 11 bike race is good for me . A rider by the name of John Somerville and I used to race for last place at every Heaven meeting . The best races I have ever had .
My last Race was Crystal Brook in 2011 the only reasons are self employment and the Tassie club not covering the classes I like to ride (pre 70 ) If I was in Vic it would be a lot different .
Iain
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Having an affinity with an old bike doesn't give us old bastards sole rights to ride them.
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The real issue isn't that our sport doesn't appeal to many 20-somethings. The problem is that it appeals to too few 30-somethings and 40-somethings.
At 38, I'm very aware that I'm a 'young buck'. The blokes around my age, mostly aren't interested in VMX as it stands - one of the conversations I keep having when I take an old bike to a modern event "My old [bike] was awesome!" or "I had a [bike] - I'd love to race one again!", and then I have to hose them down because their own Golden Era bike is too new for VMX...
These aren't kids who want to steal trophies off old blokes, they're blokes with kids and mortgages and beer bellys and a desire to relive their youth.
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If we were smart, and wanted to keep our VMX alive, we would put more youngsters on our bikes and help them race. That way we get to see our bikes being ridden as they were meant to be, by young fellas fit enough to do them justice, win / win really.
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Having an affinity with an old bike doesn't give us old bastards sole rights to ride them.
You know I've always thought it strange when blokes who are a of the era wonder why I'd be interested in owning or having anything to do with bikes well before my time, it seems to be only a Motorcyle thing, as if I'm encroaching on their old memories or something. Though people will see ya younger bloke in a 57 chev or a 66 muzzy and think nothing of it or just enjoy the sight of them still rolling around the roads. :-\
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If we were smart, and wanted to keep our VMX alive, we would put more youngsters on our bikes and help them race. That way we get to see our bikes being ridden as they were meant to be, by young fellas fit enough to do them justice, win / win really.
Exactly.
Unfortunately some people think VMX is all about their age bracket racing and nothing to do with the machinery they are riding.
I put a vintage bike show on a while back and never heard one person say " Fu..ck the old bikes, I'm here to see the crusty old buggers that ride them"
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Ted and Nathan , Im not saying only guys who rode the bikes when they were new should ride them and Im not worried about them being faster than me for fluc sake anyone is faster than me . What Im saying is apart from a very few most under 20's have no affinity for the bikes the vast majority ride their fathers or grandfathers bikes for the day and rap the shit out of it because its only a old shitter is it not . I sat on the start line a few years ago with a 20 something on a lovely RM250 the 10 sec board had not even gone up and this guy had it at full song I yelled at him give it a rest it has no governor , His answer its a 2 stroke it will take it if not fxxx it its an old junker my granddad left it to me .
I have no problem with the newer classes pre 90 or even pre 2000 but they can not play on the same tracks for the sake of both the older bikes would find any track that a more modern bike and rider enjoy would be to rugged for anything pre 75 . Anything that a pre 75 bike and rider would like would be like riding on a bowling green to them .
Iain
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juniors which is under 16 (16 plus on vintage) can ride practice days on their modern bikes with QVMX, letting them race with in the club would only open a can of worms. next thing you would see is the mums and dads stacking the voting process and take over the club. our boys which two of them love riding the old bikes (when they can fit them into there busy life style) do so when there around. Kev the 80cc bikes are fun to ride and great to watch. Love to see you on one, beats push starting that 490 lol, its a cheap sport compared to other motor sports. old bikes, good mates and story's to be told. Sorry cant put a price on that ! ;)
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why is it that we cant just except it, and enjoy what we have and improve it, VMX in other country like England, europe, America, enjoy there old racing bikes and just have some fun, ex- champion
get out and play. we just need to swallow it up, and keep the spirit alive, F---K it, I am getting off my arse and support my club and help improve it and go racing.
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Two young guys loved the track at the recent Pre 78 Port Augusta Nats.
As far as young guys destroying old bikes goes, I think that reflects more on the initial set up of the bike than the rider riding them too fast.
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No, its not about the young rider, its about the design of the track that may have been set up by a young riders that don`t have a clue about old bikes and setting up a track to suit old bikes.
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Ted and Nathan , Im not saying only guys who rode the bikes when they were new should ride them and Im not worried about them being faster than me for fluc sake anyone is faster than me . What Im saying is apart from a very few most under 20's have no affinity for the bikes the vast majority ride their fathers or grandfathers bikes for the day and rap the shit out of it because its only a old shitter is it not . I sat on the start line a few years ago with a 20 something on a lovely RM250 the 10 sec board had not even gone up and this guy had it at full song I yelled at him give it a rest it has no governor , His answer its a 2 stroke it will take it if not fxxx it its an old junker my granddad left it to me .
I have no problem with the newer classes pre 90 or even pre 2000 but they can not play on the same tracks for the sake of both the older bikes would find any track that a more modern bike and rider enjoy would be to rugged for anything pre 75 . Anything that a pre 75 bike and rider would like would be like riding on a bowling green to them .
Iain
Fair enough, but what do you do about that?
Either you say 'no young blokes' and the older eras die as the older riders retire, or you deal with the quirks of young blokes as they arise...
I really, really think that FAR too much time is spent talking about the 16-30 year olds. They're not ever going to be widely attracted to nostalgia racing. The demographic we need to be spending FAR more time on, is the 35~45 year olds.
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Not racing coz too fkn old--actually too disorganised, googled that for spelling & came up with an image that looked like my shed damn it. Started on a hand change girder forked 125 Excelsior & the paddock hardly cut up at all--i vote pre "40. Plus kids these days should be restricted to driving sidevalve morris minors till they're----mmmm 40. Sorry, carry on.
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why is it that we cant just except it, and enjoy what we have and improve it, VMX in other country like England, europe, America, enjoy there old racing bikes and just have some fun, ex- champion
get out and play. we just need to swallow it up, and keep the spirit alive, F---K it, I am getting off my arse and support my club and help improve it and go racing.
I for one would like to see you follow through with you getting off your arse Dave. You have contributed a hell of a lot in the past with Victorian VMX and you have some great ideas. Shite, you and the other mob from CSC pretty much started the VMX movement in Victoria but somehow, the club has dropped the ball. Pull your finger out and have a go Dave.....the sport needs you.
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TBM, IT will happen, very soon.
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Foxy and Nathan have got it right. No problem with young seniors who support the sport, but they are always very few in number. Like Nathan says, it's the 40+ that are the backbone of vintage. Young guys get older and hopefully gravitate to vintage as time goes on. Our group of newer members come from the 40 and 50 demographic and are returning to dirt bikes as pressure of kids, career etc lessens.
John Kittle made the observation that "young guys are the future of modern motocross then as they get older become the future of vintage" I know there are exceptions, but this is generally true.
As Foxy observes, bringing in juniors on modern bikes (and their parents) is fraught with peril.
The growth of Vinduro is great and I see it continuing. I don't understand the doom and gloom though, 2010 Nats,about 160 entries, 2011 137, 2012 Classic (first after the split) 166, a (record), 2013 130 (at 7 weeks notice), 2014 Post Classic about 140. These numbers exceed the good old days mainly, so while we need to keep working at it things are not as bad as this forum suggests.
As has been said before, a rider, or sponsor who looked at this forum to get a view on how our sport is going would run a mile.
I will say though that this thread has been mainly constructive.
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I know from my time at Heaven back in 2000 that we ran mini's and later had juniors on vmx minis and it went quite well . Im only talking about here in Tassie our club merged with a modern club we had a few young one's who were into older bikes but after the merg to me it felt like the kids parents took over and the modern riders all on modern 4 strokes wanted bigger jumps , stutters , short straights and hairpin corners . the older group mainly vmx riders started not coming or dropping the older bikes to go to pre 80 and later bikes . Hence when I say younger Im meaning modern riders that race modern 4 strokers who dabble in to VMX as a lark . As to the mainland clubs where the whole club is VMX hopefully this problem does not happen . Iain
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Some of the problem is most certainly the tracks we "race" on. Most (pretty much all) are set up for the current mentality of low average speed with high technicality, which just doesn't suit the bulk of VMX racers. There always seems to be a double, triple or step up jump & some sort of stutters, which make a lot of guys think a tad too much.
K
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Some of the problem is most certainly the tracks we "race" on. Most (pretty much all) are set up for the current mentality of low average speed with high technicality, which just doesn't suit the bulk of VMX racers. There always seems to be a double, triple or step up jump & some sort of stutters, which make a lot of guys think a tad too much.
K
The middle ground seems so hard to find though, it would be great to have a handful of tracks that were in the middle somewhere and could be deemed challenging for the short travel bikes and at least "interesting" for the long travel bikes. I can understand both not wanting to race on the other.
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At the rate all our Governments are degrading our standard of living we will be able to talk about this down at the dump while we collect plastic bags for a living.
At least we'll have the memories.
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Some of the problem is most certainly the tracks we "race" on. Most (pretty much all) are set up for the current mentality of low average speed with high technicality, which just doesn't suit the bulk of VMX racers. There always seems to be a double, triple or step up jump & some sort of stutters, which make a lot of guys think a tad too much.
K
The middle ground seems so hard to find though, it would be great to have a handful of tracks that were in the middle somewhere and could be deemed challenging for the short travel bikes and at least "interesting" for the long travel bikes. I can understand both not wanting to race on the other.
I agree totally with both of you gents. An old school (eerks me to say that) style ski jump or 2 would be great for the old bikes. Throw in a berm or 2 so the later bikes can throw some roost. Maybe a smallish tabletop for a bit of show. Geez, this is all sounding a lot like Underra!
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Old bikes on modern tracks are an issue.
Old bodies on modern tracks are also an issue... Most of us 'old blokes' won't clear all the obstacles on a modern track, even on a modern bike.
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It can be done. Brisbane MCC ran the Qld Classic and Post Classic C'ship at Harrisville a few months ago with bikes from 1957 Jawa to 1989 500cc Honda, and riders from Don Newell at 83 yoa to Glen Bell. All reported they'd had a great event. Granted we are lucky that the Harrisville track stands up to the long travel suspensions better than most, and the long 2km circuit means less laps so less wear and tear.
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The track argument doesn't wash with me ::) an obstacle is an obstacle , as long as you can ride over it then what's the problem. It MX weather its vintage or modern your racing the track and the others in the race . Stutters and huge drop offs that cant be ridden over are the only two obstacles I consider out of place for vintage bikes.
If its a double and a bloke regardless of age can clear it then that's his advantage ITS RACING .
I love natural flowing TT style tracks where I can hook top gear and slide the arse out also tight rutted corners as I can ride ruts well . I don't like big jumps but will race what's put in front of me.
We are having this argument with our modern club riders ATM, if the tracks not super smooth with manicured jump faces and no ruts apparently its shit . What they want really suits the vintage bikes but its a facility used 98% by modern rider on modern bikes FFS .
I tell em all "its not the track Princess , its YOU , harden the fork up "
Over 40 yr and under 40 yrs is a good split with a class for over 60s too . I don't care if the kids got any affinity with the bike or not but if he rides like a forkwit and takes me out due to stupidity then I will give him a dig in the pits ;)
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You're absolutely right Bill when you say you have to ride the obstacles. Just because there's a huge double in front of you doesn't mean you have to take it on.
The fact of the matter is though, young men will always want to fly. I know I did. But that was on a then modern '84 CR and I was young, fit and fearless....I bounced a lot better then too. Thing is, MX is a young mans sport, always has been, always will be. They no doubt have the numbers on VMX when it comes to race licenses and club membership so most of the current tracks are built to cater for the next world champion. And rightly so I say.
In a perfect world, there would be natural terrain tracks everywhere, some with the odd man made obstacle here and there, for us lot who enjoy riding old bikes as they were meant to ridden.....FLAT OUT ;D
Connondale up in QLD is a perfect example of a track that suits the old bikes but yet still manages to keep the long travel and linkage brigade very happy as well.
Narrogin in WA is absolute heaven....yep, it has jumps, lots of them too, but you have the choice of flying over them or keeping the bike as close to the ground as you like without risking someone flying over your head while you roll over a double jump. It's a nice, fast flowing track that caters for pre75 only so there are no real deep ruts that sweep your feet off the pegs. I hope they (WAVMX) decide to allow pre78 for a national event.....the place is awesome.
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Right we are on tracks now.
Supercross obstacles on MX tracks is nothing new. In 1980 there was a double jump in the main straight at Tivoli and quad jumps beside the dam. As the eighties went on and SX gained more MX numbers dropped off.
The riders just stopped racing. They didn't say why they just stopped. In Queensland the numbers only started to come back when in 1989 we banned SX obstacles in MX. Riders numbers came back in the 90s and increased each year until the early 2000s.
Supercross obstacles have been creeping back into MX for a number of year's now. Of course they aren't permitted under the current track guidelines but track inspectors have found way to approve them.
How does this relate to VMX?
Simple because the tracks most clubs use are also modern tracks the same obstacles are there. Have a good look at the track your club uses. Remember riders may not tell you they don't like a track, they just won't turn up.
Even my two favourite tracks in Queensland would be better (for VMX) without some of the "Modern" obstacles. At the moment the good bits out way the bad. The reality is we are getting older, while we could jump things even ten years ago, now you hesitate. As Gally would say at a school if you aren't confident don't try it.
Brian there is no way I am interested in riding or racing a mini-bike. I didn't ride them when I was young (they weren't around) and I'm not interested now. They are bikes designed for kids and that's who should be riding them. I even mentioned this to Rick Doughty one time and he said it would be great to see kids helping dad to restore a mini-bike.
Kevin
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that's showing your age kev ;D
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A field full of teenagers riding our bikes !!! may as well go play slotcars. when I cant race anymore they are going to the scrap heap rather than play pit dad to a young fella
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Tracks in NSW have speed limits and to achieve this they must add more obstacles and more corners. Yes it stupid IMO but thats how it is. Again these rules are because mini bike parents fear that speed will hurt there kid and mini bike parents control just about all clubs.
This again is why you wont see me at my local track. Its a second gear jump fest.
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A field full of teenagers riding our bikes !!! may as well go play slotcars. when I cant race anymore they are going to the scrap heap rather than play pit dad to a young fella
Fantastic attitude, that's the spirit ::) almost all other sports, those who can no longer participate often choose to spend their time giving back to something that gave them so much joy, showing younger people the way and teaching them things they "think" they already know. If you're above post is a truthful reflection of your feelings I'm glad you're not a member of my club. ;)
Cheers, Brendan
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That the problem with the younger generations ( and I was the same when I was young)you want to be given everything insted of A: earning it and B; finding out your self. C : creating your own thing
I have done the passing on thing already pit dad buls*#@T but if you don't learn from your own experience and mistakes you cannot grow.
Sometimes things have to die out in order for new things to replace them.
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The ACTMCC turned their good club track into a jumpfest a few years ago. Apart from losing their track maintenance guy (an OzVMX member) they also went from nearly full grids of O35s and nearly full grids of O45s, to a 2/3rds full grid of combined O35, O45s and women.
The other classes also suffered, although less dramatically.
The track has progressively be tamed back down since then.
Nobody likes racing on obstacles that make them feel like incompetent morons, but the over-30 year old riders like it less than most.
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Tracks in NSW have speed limits and to achieve this they must add more obstacles and more corners. Yes it stupid IMO but thats how it is. Again these rules are because mini bike parents fear that speed will hurt there kid and mini bike parents control just about all clubs.
Yes & No
(Sorry if this has been covered haven't read the entire thread.)
While the parents may very well influence the track layout/design it is MA's "Track Guidelines" (There's an Oxymoron, actually just morons) that stipulates that no track shall have an AVERAGE speed of more than 55kph & no section of the track where a bike can reach a speed of over 100kph and this is measure against a PRO rider.
Monza is 54.86 kph average which means I would average about 44kph (If on song)
This is why more technically track are appearing & why most jump are "2nd gear" types as you will flat land if you over jump meaing they have to wash off speed before hand. The beauty of us "old" riders is we know how to land on the back wheels, kids don't.
I have had this argument with track inspector & other officials alike (I'm a level 3) & can't get it through to them that speed is actually safer than heaps of technical crap that bunches the riders up.
On that though I am in agreeance with the man formally known as TM Bill that you ride to YOUR ability & everyone else has to cover the same track as you. Whereas I love jumps, especially step ups, I hate off camber corners, mud, ruts, stutters etc. but I still ride the tracks (Used to, hope to again) as it is equal for all. And don't get me started on the prima donnas that are supposed to be our current bunch of so called motox riders. One rut, one puddle, one breaking bump & the whinging starts, and this is for just practice days.
7.3.4 Speed
The track must not contain any high-speed sections (i.e. where speeds exceed 100kph).
Average Speed: The maximum average speed for a lap of the track is to be no greater than
55kph.
The formula to work out the average track speed is:
Average Speed (kph) = Distance (metres) x 3.6
LapTime (secs)
Note that the lap time used is to be one achieved by an experienced “Pro” grade rider.
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That the problem with the younger generations.....
Nothing thought out, researched or constructive has ever followed a sweeping generalization like that so I'll give it no merit at all.
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Tracks in NSW have speed limits and to achieve this they must add more obstacles and more corners. Yes it stupid IMO but thats how it is. Again these rules are because mini bike parents fear that speed will hurt there kid and mini bike parents control just about all clubs.
This again is why you wont see me at my local track. Its a second gear jump fest.
Slakewell
The average speed rule is not a NSW rule only it is in the MA Track Guidelines. 55 KPH is the average speed. The number comes from the FIM MX track standards. It is being used to slow track down more than they have to be. The World MX Championship tracks comply to that average speed. The influence of SX and Freestyle is why we are getting more jumps.
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That the problem with the younger generations.....
Nothing thought out, researched or constructive has ever followed a sweeping generalization like that so I'll give it no merit at all.
So you wont take any advice anyway as, like you said, you might just actually know it all
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The ACTMCC turned their good club track into a jumpfest a few years ago. Apart from losing their track maintenance guy (an OzVMX member) they also went from nearly full grids of O35s and nearly full grids of O45s, to a 2/3rds full grid of combined O35, O45s and women.
The other classes also suffered, although less dramatically.
The track has progressively be tamed back down since then.
Nobody likes racing on obstacles that make them feel like incompetent morons, but the over-30 year old riders like it less than most.
I agree with Nathan again. What's happening!!!!!
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I also agree with Nathan , tracks can make all the difference to rider enjoyment , which also varies with age group
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That the problem with the younger generations.....
Nothing thought out, researched or constructive has ever followed a sweeping generalization like that so I'll give it no merit at all.
So you wont take any advice anyway as, like you said, you might just actually know it all
You're using sweeping generalisations, being non constructive and bringing negativity to an otherwise very informative, useful thread. Please, I'm sure you're of an age and level of experience both higher than myself. Please use that for all the good it can offer, not the negative.
Cheers, Brendan
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I agree with you Brendan.
Personally I could see nothing better than passing knowledge onto to younger riders. I'm not ready yet to put a younger rider on my bike. Maybe that will come some day.
As for any fear of letting juniors into VMX goes. It wouldn't be hard to stop parents taking over the club. Just change the constitution to stop it.
1. Don't permit juniors to vote (makes sense)
2. Don't permit the parents to vote (unless they ride also)
Just have social members (who can't vote)
How many potential VMX riders are out there who rider modern MX with their sons or daughters because some VMX clubs don't have juniors. Probably more than you think.
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Can someone start again and name this WHY WE RACE
the problem with any forums is that most people just read it and never participate. If I was thinking of taking up VMX and read all of the above I would certaimly think otherwise.
I am 61 and love all the tracks, jumps and all. I race a bike from pre 65 to pre84 There is no such thing as a bad track and all obstackes can be ridden over if you cannot jump them.
The reason I ride and race is because there is nothing better in the wordl like ridding an Mx bike of any vintage.
No other sport comes close.
There is no other sport that is so exhilirating, no other sport that leaves you feeling so good after a weekend of racing. There is no other sport that combines fitnes and speed like MX. When was the last time you went racing and had a crap time either on the bike or drinking beer with your buddies. Me never. I just spent a day at a modern track with a whole bunch of kids that were jumping over my head, but guess what, I had a fantastic day. Took my wife up who rode on the kids track. What a blast. Today I got a sore back and a bunch of blisters but hey it will be a sad day when you cannot ride your motorcycle.
Stop moaning about all the problems( there is not any) get your bike and ride before you get tooooo miserable.
:)
Get a bike and ride
rgds
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Can someone start again and name this WHY WE RACE
the problem with any forums is that most people just read it and never participate. If I was thinking of taking up VMX and read all of the above I would certaimly think otherwise.
I am 61 and love all the tracks, jumps and all. I race a bike from pre 65 to pre84 There is no such thing as a bad track and all obstackes can be ridden over if you cannot jump them.
The reason I ride and race is because there is nothing better in the wordl like ridding an Mx bike of any vintage.
No other sport comes close.
There is no other sport that is so exhilirating, no other sport that leaves you feeling so good after a weekend of racing. There is no other sport that combines fitnes and speed like MX. When was the last time you went racing and had a crap time either on the bike or drinking beer with your buddies. Me never. I just spent a day at a modern track with a whole bunch of kids that were jumping over my head, but guess what, I had a fantastic day. Took my wife up who rode on the kids track. What a blast. Today I got a sore back and a bunch of blisters but hey it will be a sad day when you cannot ride your motorcycle.
Stop moaning about all the problems( there is not any) get your bike and ride before you get tooooo miserable.
:)
Get a bike and ride
rgds
Bloody spot on ;)
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Can someone start again and name this WHY WE RACE
the problem with any forums is that most people just read it and never participate. If I was thinking of taking up VMX and read all of the above I would certaimly think otherwise.
I am 61 and love all the tracks, jumps and all. I race a bike from pre 65 to pre84 There is no such thing as a bad track and all obstackes can be ridden over if you cannot jump them.
The reason I ride and race is because there is nothing better in the wordl like ridding an Mx bike of any vintage.
No other sport comes close.
There is no other sport that is so exhilirating, no other sport that leaves you feeling so good after a weekend of racing. There is no other sport that combines fitnes and speed like MX. When was the last time you went racing and had a crap time either on the bike or drinking beer with your buddies. Me never. I just spent a day at a modern track with a whole bunch of kids that were jumping over my head, but guess what, I had a fantastic day. Took my wife up who rode on the kids track. What a blast. Today I got a sore back and a bunch of blisters but hey it will be a sad day when you cannot ride your motorcycle.
Stop moaning about all the problems( there is not any) get your bike and ride before you get tooooo miserable.
:)
Get a bike and ride
rgds
If everyone had that attitude we wouldn't have an issue to address in the first place, but unfortunately they don't...so we do. More power to you ;)
Cheers, Brendan
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Great to see some unqualified enthusiasm
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True words
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well that's put us in our place, i feel like riding again now, but the damn cars just failed a warrant, & now i've misplaced the starter brush springs on the spare car, AGGHHH, put them somewhere last week so i wouldn't loose them, can't get there just yet lol.
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Echuca Vinduro course is spot on after the rain and an easy ride if there is no racing this weekend ;D
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(http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad275/albrid3/DSC003192.jpg) (http://s943.photobucket.com/user/albrid3/media/DSC003192.jpg.html)
Port Augusta Bike, Montesa 68 Cappra.
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(http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad275/albrid3/TerryatPortAugusta.jpg) (http://s943.photobucket.com/user/albrid3/media/TerryatPortAugusta.jpg.html)
Port Augusta Australian vintage Titles.
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[img width=800 height=449]http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad275/albrid3/DSC003192.jpg[/img] (http://s943.photobucket.com/user/albrid3/media/DSC003192.jpg.html)
Port Augusta Bike, Montesa 68 Cappra.
Dave my eyes aren't the best but i reckon looking closely thats Terry on the TM125 not the Capra?? ???
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(http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad275/albrid3/10327319_473751002771763_1463951923_n2.jpg) (http://s943.photobucket.com/user/albrid3/media/10327319_473751002771763_1463951923_n2.jpg.html)
Gary O'brien testing the new prototype Montese VR 250 1972 in spain.
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[img width=800 height=449]http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad275/albrid3/DSC003192.jpg[/img] (http://s943.photobucket.com/user/albrid3/media/DSC003192.jpg.html)
Port Augusta Bike, Montesa 68 Cappra.
Dave my eyes aren't the best but i reckon looking closely thats Terry on the TM125 not the Capra?? ???
YES Terry Humphries.
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Can someone start again and name this WHY WE RACE
the problem with any forums is that most people just read it and never participate. If I was thinking of taking up VMX and read all of the above I would certaimly think otherwise.
I am 61 and love all the tracks, jumps and all. I race a bike from pre 65 to pre84 There is no such thing as a bad track and all obstackes can be ridden over if you cannot jump them.
The reason I ride and race is because there is nothing better in the wordl like ridding an Mx bike of any vintage.
No other sport comes close.
There is no other sport that is so exhilirating, no other sport that leaves you feeling so good after a weekend of racing. There is no other sport that combines fitnes and speed like MX. When was the last time you went racing and had a crap time either on the bike or drinking beer with your buddies. Me never. I just spent a day at a modern track with a whole bunch of kids that were jumping over my head, but guess what, I had a fantastic day. Took my wife up who rode on the kids track. What a blast. Today I got a sore back and a bunch of blisters but hey it will be a sad day when you cannot ride your motorcycle.
Stop moaning about all the problems( there is not any) get your bike and ride before you get tooooo miserable.
:)
Get a bike and ride
rgds
EXACTAMUNDOO........
Although, in OUR defence, I don't think anyone here is really having a whinge. We are just looking for the PERFECT world to ride ;D
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I'm spoil myself with my own track at my back door so I guess Im a bit fussy.
If we had more tracks like they have use of in NZ I would make a much bigger effort to get to the races.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10628046_10153176765888332_960664025923312057_n.jpg?oh=6f516500c0adff5312ecb206c8066b55&oe=54B92EE3&__gda__=1422240104_70e3aa74636b399134be4b307145ee29)
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I love vmx porn,,,,,,,,, that's a nice looking track and kx :D
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Yes we would all like to race on a virgin natural terrain track, which has had light showers the night before at least once a month, but in the real world that rarely happens.
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You are all living in the wrong state of Australia..
~~ Natural Terrain ~~ The best is in the west ~~ :D
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/vmx247/2009wa_zpsaeb528cb.jpg) (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/vmx247/media/2009wa_zpsaeb528cb.jpg.html)
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Yes we would all like to race on a virgin natural terrain track, which has had light showers the night before at least once a month, but in the real world that rarely happens.
You need to come to my place Kev ;)
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You are all living in the wrong state of Australia..
~~ Natural Terrain ~~ The best is in the west ~~ :D
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/vmx247/2009wa_zpsaeb528cb.jpg) (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/vmx247/media/2009wa_zpsaeb528cb.jpg.html)
Yes looks great. Why don't you hire the Antonov 225 and fly everyone over there once a month. All West Australian's are millionaires aren't they?
Also we have places in Queensland that look like that, but I'm sure the golfers would object if we rode there.
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I'm getting nervous. Find myself agreeing with too many people on this forum.
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that's great, need to start a new thread-- show us your tracks.....
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10628046_10153176765888332_960664025923312057_n.jpg?oh=6f516500c0adff5312ecb206c8066b55&oe=54B92EE3&__gda__=1422240104_70e3aa74636b399134be4b307145ee29)
That looks like they're plowing up someone's sorghum stubble ;D
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The green one is about to blow up..... You can tell as its in front! ;D ;D
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That's the artist formally known as TM Bill.....he's a bike hoar but does have green blood flowing through his Portsmouth veins. ;D He's going to make a guest appearance at the 2015 Maxima Racing Oils Conondale Classic next August. Book your tickets early. ;)
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Approaching 4000 views in just 4 days, 12 pages of conversation. I think that tells us that the issue was at least worth putting up for discussion. With all the great input here I'm sure it can be drawn on to get some idea of where people's thoughts are at. Thanks to all that have contributed so far and those that continue to do so. :)
Cheers, Brendan
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So is the South Sea Pom formerly known as TM Bill now KX Bill???????
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So is the South Sea Pom formally known as TM Bill now KX Bill???????
We need a like button on here ;D lots of positive things coming out of this thread .
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The green one is about to blow up..... You can tell as its in front! ;D ;D
The green one was the only one that kept going ( and winning ) that day . Seized the RM and the Bezza cracked an oil line ::)
Been a while since I had a A5 out but still as good as I remember ;D
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(http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad275/albrid3/IMAG1834.jpg) (http://s943.photobucket.com/user/albrid3/media/IMAG1834.jpg.html)
Mortlake Vintage meeting, this was one of the best track that we ran in the 90`s, this track has been around and used
back in the 60`s and 70`s.
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I am racing, have been for nearly 4 years and only missed the last meeting due to injury.
I heard a story about a classic quote by a relatively famous actor in the UK when asked in his 80s something like, what would you have done differently if you had your time over again? To which he replied, in his dapper, high brow English accent,
"I would have F#*cked more!"
If I make it to my early 80s, and someone bothers to ask me, I think my quote will be "I would have F#*cked more and raced Motocross more"
Fair enough if money is an issue to make it difficult to ride, don't run that one by Jens in the Heaven Club though. In his early 60s, he is one of the grittiest riders I have ever seen and most of us would spend something equivalent to his yearly race budget just on new riding gear each season. To treat yourself to this unique and exhilarating experience we call MOTOCROSS, is to commit to only one weekend a month, 7 - 8 months a year, which I think you are entitled to if you bring to your family a healthy income and you are a good parent and husband for the remainder of the month. If you admit to laziness being the reason, the pain of regret is going to be more than the pain of inconvenience. Get off your backside, wash and prepare your bike and enter the next meet. There is going to be a time when you look back and say to yourself,"what was I thinking?"
We are so lucky to have lived through the 70s and 80s and experienced that Golden Era, but now with the benefits of wisdom, to be able to work on, prepare, ride and race those same bikes, how damn lucky are we! Czeck, you are spot on, and I am with you all the way.
I run my own business and yes it is a huge burden at times making sure the bikes are prepared, especially when you have the problems I have had, aka 'The Steam Train', and getting to the tracks is sometimes a lot of driving, but that is what keeps you young in spirit, living your life to the fullest. At times, it is a pain in the ass when I am tired and exhausted at 10pm, and still have to clean my air filter before I get to bed, and then get up at 4.30am to be at the track for scrutineering in time. Nothing worthwhile is easy though, and nothing compares to that after race glow you have as you drive home Sunday afternoon. I live in a suburb which has been invaded by bankers, and as I see them shuffle in and out of the coffee shops in their Gucci Ostrich leather sun slippers, and climb into their Porsche Cayennes, I pity them, as I know something they don't, the absolute rush of lining up shoulder to shoulder with my racing buddies, dropping the clutch as the gate drops and blasting to that first corner, every sense in my body on high alert, looking for that spilt second advantage as we wrestle through the first few corners. They can keep their Soy Lattes.
At our age there is nothing that measures up to that feeling of adrenalin when you open up a nicely prepared 70s or 80s 2 stroke or soar through the air over a nice floating jump like the one before the finish line at The Lakes or the step up going up the back straight at Cessnock.
The states that have splintered clubs, which dilute memberships, this is a trap, and by the sounds of it, it is effecting some of the clubs. One reason why I am a strong advocate of the NSW Clubs uniting as one strong club. We must also welcome with open arms the 40 somethings who are just mellowing enough to begin to see life as we do, to not be so intense, get their egos under control, chill out and have a bit more fun. If this means embrace Pre 90 bikes, then so be it. It doesn't seem having the clubs shrink to a size where it is no longer viable to run events, is a good alternative.
There are also some out there that had one or two bad experiences and decided it is all too hard and not to race any more. My message to them, times change, people change, committees change. Don't cheat yourselves out of the experiences of this great sport because someone rubbed you up the wrong way back in 2009.
There is another Xmas around the corner, another year has sailed by... Get out and Race MOTOCROSS
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Well said Ken. Get yourself a twinshock 125, there's a special race next year at Conondale that has your name all over it. 8)
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One thing that has not been mentioned here is.
The calendar.
1. How many times a month do the majority want to race or ride. Once, twice etc, no back to back weekends?
2. Can we avoid clashes with each other eg, Classic MX, Classic DT, Vinduro, CD and even Historic Road Racing? Even clashes with National meetings that riders may want to spectate at MX Nationals etc. This would take a united effort and give and take.
Even clashing against a National Championship in another State is wrong in my view.
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I've been told that clashes of events are unavoidable Kevin :o
But I'm with you.....with a little bit of old fashioned communication and a bit of give and take, clashes can be avoided, Sure, you can't please everyone and avoid a clash of a VMX meeting with ( favourite V8 supercar race, road bike race etc...) but surely avoiding a clash with another VMX club ( in particular here in Victoria) can't be that friggin hard.
As for aligning all the clubs (3) here in Victoria to race together, I don't think it will work too well. Sure, VCM and CSC have a similar program but CSC will never allow the Evo class, let alone the mini bikes and pit bikes. They only just embraced Pre78. Viper is a different animal altogether and cater for pre78 onwards.
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So why doesnt the governing body (MA) schedule all events seeing as they are the ones handing out the permits.
Using football as an example, I don't think it would be successful if say Manly or Collingwood chose where or when they wanted to play. The governing body ( NRL and AFL ) tell them where and when to play.
At least this way double meetings could be avoided.
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So why doesnt the governing body (MA) schedule all events seeing as they are the ones handing out the permits.
Using football as an example, I don't think it would be successful if say Manly or Collingwood chose where or when they wanted to play. The governing body ( NRL and AFL ) tell them where and when to play.
At least this way double meetings could be avoided.
Very good question Ted..... But WHY doesn't MA do a lot of things?
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MA have more than enough power without giving them total control over clubs. As it is they say if or if not a permit can be granted for any meeting. It's all too easy for anyone not involved in administration in a club to ask "why"? Just try it for a short time and see how difficult it is to organize things. As the secretary of a VMX club, one of my biggest urks is being held to ransom by clubs who host our rounds (there are a few who promise the world & don't even deliver Tasmania!) VMX for most hosting clubs is either simply a money grab or a pain for them. There may be one or two enthusiasts who really try hard but are pushing the proverbial shit uphill. All this adds to the disdain of VMX racers who get excited about the possibility but are severely disappointed by the actual. I hear guys say on here that a shit day racing is better than a day in the garden, to which I agree but maybe not if you've travelled hours & spent quite a few dollars.
The question Rookie posed was about why people are not racing. The enormous selection of events both modern & VMX is really not the problem.
For me, I like to be a bit choosy in my old age, so I will go wherever the track suits me, has the least BS, has the lowest cost, the least "officialdom" & provides the most FUN. Unfortunately that is sounding a lot like any of the ride parks or the bush. Get the FUN back in VMX & people will come in droves. Just look at the patronage of Classic Dirt & Broadford Bonanza.
K
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While I would have liked to do more races this year (I have only done one) I think there are a number of factors.
1) the cost for what is essentially a recreation activity is high. Race entry, day licence or MA licence all adds up. I am generally a back marker and just do it for the fun. MA licence is so expensive for part timers and the day licence is also far too expensive.
2) time is poor with work and family commitments, also no time to work on the bikes
3) no time / location to practice and build any confidence on the bike
probably a similar set of reasons to some of the other guys
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So why doesnt the governing body (MA) schedule all events seeing as they are the ones handing out the permits.
Using football as an example, I don't think it would be successful if say Manly or Collingwood chose where or when they wanted to play. The governing body ( NRL and AFL ) tell them where and when to play.
At least this way double meetings could be avoided.
The RCB (Relevant Controlling Body) does control their calendar. The National calendar should be set first and then the State calendar fit around it. I believe the commissions and each State sub committee should make sure they have input. Eg For some reason no one thought clashing the Aust DT Champs and the Historic RR Champs was a problem.
Ted The Broncos (or their owners) get to choose when they play (as many Friday nights as possible). Bronco, Cowboy Grand Final next year.
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I live in a suburb which has been invaded by bankers.....they can keep their Soy Lattes.
As a banker I am somewhat offended, you've probably mistaken them for lawyers, although I do like a latte, but made with real milk ;D
I will start racing as soon I can after I put one bike back together and finish building the others, but I am also in the process of getting another job but it will probably be in a remote type area with no VMX club and will have to run around with the moderns, but I will try to make it to CD and/or nationals depending upon where they are.
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"will probably be in a remote type area " got to be some good riding anywhere its "remote" ;)
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$$$$ is the killer for me.. as I have other hobbies to cater for and young family.
Them ride parks suit the average punter like myself to get the thrill of two wheels back out of the system.
I don't know the reason behind viper aligning with MA, so no real feelings about it, although it seemed that's when things started changing.
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Keen to start racing again with the proper vintage enduros!
Cheers, Grahame
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Keen to start racing again with the proper vintage enduros!
Cheers, Grahame
So what do you guys think about "proper" enduros as in Timed sections and/or some navigation....seems to me that we should be trying to keep our brains 'tuned-up' as well as the bikes and bodies. Just a thought.
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So why doesnt the governing body (MA) schedule all events seeing as they are the ones handing out the permits.
Using football as an example, I don't think it would be successful if say Manly or Collingwood chose where or when they wanted to play. The governing body ( NRL and AFL ) tell them where and when to play.
At least this way double meetings could be avoided.
Damn near impossible, really.
I don't give a rat's proverbial when the footy grand finals, Father's Day, Bathurst,or MotoGP are on - if its a dirt bike race that I want to be a part of, it will take priority. Easily.
The Wife's birthday is another story... and is why I keep missing CDs when they got moved to June long weekend...
It's a different story for other people - some will miss a meeting because its the seventh anniverary of second cousin's third son's bar mitzvah. But that same person might have no drama racing on the second Sunday in May even though it is also their mum's and the wife's birthdays.
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trying to get an enduro set up as per the 80's is big ask due to the manpower required to keep sections, clocks etc. in an ideal world and with plenty of drive.....it could be done.
The current format of the AORC has come about over time and is the norm now.
it will be hard enough counting laps ..... ::)
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So why doesnt the governing body (MA) schedule all events seeing as they are the ones handing out the permits.
Using football as an example, I don't think it would be successful if say Manly or Collingwood chose where or when they wanted to play. The governing body ( NRL and AFL ) tell them where and when to play.
At least this way double meetings could be avoided.
Damn near impossible, really.
I don't give a rat's proverbial when the footy grand finals, Father's Day, Bathurst,or MotoGP are on - if its a dirt bike race that I want to be a part of, it will take priority. Easily.
The Wife's birthday is another story... and is why I keep missing CDs when they got moved to June long weekend...
It's a different story for other people - some will miss a meeting because its the seventh anniverary of second cousin's third son's bar mitzvah. But that same person might have no drama racing on the second Sunday in May even though it is also their mum's and the wife's birthdays.
And imagine all the whining because MA are trying to tell the clubs when they can run events
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The facts are that MA and the SCBs can tell the clubs when they can run meetings.
World Championships take precedence over National Championships then National over State etc. The real problem is when two National Historic/Classic Championships clash like happened with the Historic Road Race at Lakeside (near Brisbane) and the Classic Dirt Track at Canberra. One did suffer.
This clash was not the fault of MA staff (although I doubt it would have happened if Ross Martin was still there). The staff aren't the experts on each discipline, the commissions are.
The facts are if the promoter needs a crowd to make a meeting work there are dates you avoid. Mother's day is the big one.
With the limited rider base for Classic/Historic racing clashes should be avoided if possible.
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A big factor for me is value for money/effort. Unfortunately now most of the events are near 3 hrs drive each way , for a one day event it is a lot of time and money to do a dozen laps as compared to practice day and race day setups. I'm finding I'm more inclined to go ride locally . In previous years the events seemed more well spread, although track availability is a factor. It does make me wonder though if being better spread would attract new members for some clubs.
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It's a combination of things for me. $ - licence needs renewing -$290, Practice day with gas etc - $100 - great track at Harrisville, but a race day including car & bike fuel 3 hrs drive plus wear & tear got to be $150-200. Can't afford to go to titles outside Qld.
Current bike is as good as I can get it, so need a new project - more dollars - sometimes the pension will only go so far.
I've got a few favourite bikes I'd probably sell my firstborn to buy, so all is not lost. However, until I find them, maybe it's time to find an interest in which I can go for a ride/drive anytime/anywhere I want, and just for a tank of gas.
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Meeting in Auckland this weekend, 25 mins travel and $40
Just saying
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Don't despair Mike, Brisbane MCC Nudgee, 20min drive, $25 licence, $40 entry. See you next year. In the meantime bring your nearest/dearest to end of season wind up and presentation. We miss you.
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Meeting in Auckland this weekend, 25 mins travel and $40
Just saying
That,s 3hours and $100 in feul for me ,and you if there is a pile up on the motorway. Ill have to wait until they are back at this side of bombays :)
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Here are a few positive ideas,going back to the 70's when speedway was on every Friday night at the Toowoomba Showgrounds(bikes and cars),with big crowds paying to go,it was a show ,with a good commentator,PA,and facilities,stories in the local paper and on the radio,people wanted to go.Scrambles became Motocross and Echo Valley(which was a car track) became home to "Mountain Man", used to attract 5000+ spectators,using papers,radio ,signs etc,all free or low cost advertising.
Fast forward to 2014,many events are only promoted to competitors,therefore there is no paying spectators,we went to the VMX Nationals at Connondale in 2012, there was not any signs anywhere on the road,even at the gate,there was no commentary,you had to know it was on!If clubs,and riders want their sport to at least pay its way,they need to tell people about it.
By way of example I was approached by the local sporting club(horses golf,cricket etc) to help in running a Bike!!! Event,I stupidly agreed,we called it the North Star Trailride,we got 60 riders,and raised $250,not enough to put the club back in the black,but it was a start,that was 2006.Next year we joined the Dalby Moto Trailride Series,we talked to every newspaper,radio,and TV station within 500 km in 2007 we got 250 riders and doubled every year until we hit 1400, then in 2014 we had 1550 riders plus 39 sweep riders.Last year we won the best event in our shire(50,000sq km) the TV,radio,newspapers etc ring us now ,as it is the largest sporting event in NW NSW.We no longer ask for sponsors they just keep coming,we have put in a PA system that can be heard all over the 50 acre camp ground and pay( he donates it back) the local DJ,Greg Henry to do his stuff and give all our sponsors a good wrap.We are planning for 2015,looking at maybe an expo in the ring from Friday afternoon,with demos ,endurocross,barrel racing,etc (check the Facebook page) and we would welcome more VMX and Vinduro Bikes.I won't say how much the event brings into the area,however for all of our helping organisations it is their biggest fundraiser.I know it is not a race as such,but it gives riders of all abilities the chance to experience the thrill of off road riding,and have in the past ,and will in the future have some form of competition for night entertainment,at an affordable cost.We also give up to $4,000 worth of bike gear,helicopter joy flights etc back to the riders.
Don't be afraid to let the World know what you do!!!!
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that sums it up..."trailride" not race..makes a huge difference.
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Going for a trail/practise ride is good but no comparison to racing! Even racing someone for last place is so much fun compared to just going for a ride. Racing just floats my boat! There is a buzz in the air when you go to a race meeting compared to a ride. It doesn't matter if your playing chess or soccer and soon as you make it a competition it challenges you. Every man and his dog is attributed to saying it but "life is just waiting for the next race". I live 8hrs from the closest vmx track and only get to go half a dozen times a year. When I retire I am moving closer.
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Yes I agree,nothing beats racing,however it costs a lot in time and money to build,and maintain tracks and facilities as well as run events.Running a Trailride is no picnic either,however it opens the way for more people to enter the sport which spreads the costs,and we have a lot more riders at track and pony express races run by clubs since we started.We also have all of the insurance,licence and rider levies that races have.Most people that are into VMX/Vinduro raced when they were younger,we have a lot of these riders drag their old bikes out for the Trailride,and in this part of the world we don't have any events just for Old Bikes.
As"bigk"said "Make it Fun and People will Come"and that was our experience with the Trailride,but you also need to let them know,and keep the cost down.In the late 70's 5 clubs in SW Qld went to the ACU and formed a Group,and ran a race series where riders only had to a be a member of one club,and could use one day licences.At the time a competition licence was $100,and a one day licence was $5, this a opened up racing to a lot more riders,all the club memberships increased,and the ACU were happy as the number of affiliated clubs went from 1 to 5 and "black" meetings" ceased to exist.
It might be worth putting a similar concept to MA today,it worked back then.
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Time, finding the time to prepare, some practice and the time to attend an event especially as I'm usually involved in setting up the meeting.
Cost, the cost of a race locally is not an issue but to race a vintage race means about a 10,000km return trip to attend a meeting.
Practice, I don't get enough time on my vintage bike to keep my skills up.
I'd love to race more often but the opportunities aren't there. There is no vintage racing where I live.
I usually race the three natural terrain MX meetings our club runs at the start of each year but there is no vintage class. I'll race in Masters/veterans and have for the last three years raced for second last place with a good friend on his YZF250WR. This year I managed one of the three events.
Most of my club riding now is setting and sweep riding our pony express series which can run to 6 meetings in the year. This is done on my late model bike
I've raced a few meetings in QLD and really enjoyed racing against other vintage bikes and against a few guys of my skill level. I raced the Classic Nats in QLD a couple of years back and really enjoyed it There were very fast riders there but also enough guys of my speed/skill level to have our own race.
This year I went to the Classic Nats at Port Augusta. The meeting was great but I found most of the guys who travelled that far to race were faster guys who were in with a chance of a win or place. I found I was riding around by myself behind everyone and there was no fun or enjoyment in that. I'm happy to race for second last but this was just riding around. I guess I ride my vintage bike 3-4 times a year and don't get enough race time to keep the speed and races skills up.
We do plan to move to QLD in the next few years and I look forward to more riding then. In the mean time I try to ride and plan holidays to make the most of better riding opportunities over that way. And look for somewhere to live..................:)
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There are three main reasons for why I don't race as much anymore (especially at Nationals). The main reason is work commitments keep me away from home for the majority of my time and I find it difficult to get to race meetings or find time to maintain my bikes. I can see changes happening here soon though, as I work in the mining industry and it is in a major downturn at the moment. If I get one more pay cut , I think that I will take a break and get back into my bikes instead.
The second reason (for why I don't race at Nationals as much), is the lack of rider age classes. I can't much see the point of travelling thousands of kilometres to line up in races with riders that are less than half my age. There seems to be a trend of guys around the same age as me, lending their bikes to young "A" grade, 20- something year olds and this just takes all the fun out of it for me. This is why I will only bother to ride in Evo or Pre'75 classes (because there is rider age groups in these classes), if I ever go to the Nationals.
The third reason for why I am reluctant to go to Nationals, is what I consider to be stupid rules. I don't want to reverse engineer my bikes from the way they left the factory. I will reluctantly do it with my Pre'75 Maicos, because it is fairly easy to slip a travel limiting spacer under the bump stop rubber of the shocks. But in Pre '78 classes, where a big percentage of the '77 model bikes need to be modified to comply to the 9 inch travel limit rule, well I just couldn't be bothered pulling my forks and shocks apart to fit spacers.
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Resurrected thread :o
There is nothing quite like racing.
I agree with a lot of what Husky500evo and Brent j said (over two years ago!)
Racing for second last/last is still racing, and fun. Riding around in last, not so much.
I'm disappointed in the few chances to compete in a suitable age group. (Over 50 for now, in my case)
The Supermoto champs in Newcastle (June 2015) got plenty of over 50 entries. (So few 45-50 that it became "over 45". Still very good.) Oh what fun I had!
Club MX "Veterans" is often "over 35"! (Chad Reed is 34 this year, racing AMA SX at the front of the pack. FFS)
The MX nationals has a over 30 vets class!! (And an over 40 class, which I intend to participate in, this year - July 17 2016)
The Veterans class (over 35 ::) ) at the Conondale Cup (October 2015) was the only class with a full grid. Great day!
It's a shame there isn't more opportunity to race with those closer to my age in OZ.
I raced in a Vets championship in NZ one year, (Christchurch 2007?) with plenty of age groups.
The "World (sic) Vets" in both the US, and Europe, seem to be going from strength to strength. (Over 500 riders and up to an "over 70" class at the Glen Helen event in 2015 reportedly)
I think it's a bit of a "catch 22"- less older riders are prepared to line up next to guys 20 years their junior, then the organizers see " not enough 50+ to justify a class"
Veterans at Conondale in Oct (look closely, a few VMX bikes, and a skypig on a 250f)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff310/skypig/image_11.jpeg)
I know I'm talking modern and SM bikes in this post, but the sentiments apply to VMX as well
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I never raced then anyway...takes me ages to get up to speed and then in an mx race, everyone has gone over the finish line while im thinking of making a pass on second last place! that's why I rode enduro's in the 80's me vs the terrain, got to pass and be passed along the way but mainly getting thru all that the Norm watts of the milledge series could throw at us. now I cant be stuffed to get the prep happening for a crack at the AORC, although I was keen on the 4 day this year in Mansfield until I found out its on in May? whats wrong with September? ill still be working in may, cant do it...sadface
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I haven't raced for 2 years, first time in 40 years I haven't had a race licence; MA drove me out. Well I just paid for a National licence today, $300, and the club fees are now due, just paid $15 to have a coaching licence so that I can drum-up more Juniors into the sport (I feel like a drug dealer trying to get kids hooked).
Got sick of a couple of loud-mouth, abusive vintage riders so racing moderns again, will use the vintage '84 Honda CR500 on sand tracks. Agree that the Veterans class age restrictions are wrong 'Over 35' & 'Over 45' but at 56 I'll still have a go.
There are moves a foot to start Vet racing in Victoria, would be good for the sport. Vintage MX is not just vintage bikes, it is vintage riders also.
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;D ;D Come to UNzud $0 to ride all day only half a dozen rules over all classes, green grass to slide on,No MA equivellent over here, a ride every month for 6 months of the year. Na where would the fun be in that better to have MA, We dont a have to belong to MNZ if we dont want as it is against law for 1 group to have a monopoly.
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I moved to NZ, against the tide, '05-'08.
Certainly a long way behind OZ in the race to be wrapped in cotton wool and run under nanna's rules!
Raced MX around the N Island, and one Vets championship in Christchurch.
Road raced at Taupo - "we don't scrutineer your bike sir, we know:"
1. The wheels will be off it in the pits in 5 mins, and
2. We assume you will do the right thing. (And haven't yet fallen for the illusion that common sense can be legislated...)
One of the highlights was racing between the shops at Paeroa on my Sumo.
Back in OZ
I was amazed and delighted to race on the streets in Newcastle NSW this year.
The "Big Chill" road race in Stanthorpe QLD was another highlight. Vintage bikes and Sumo. A race meeting run by enthusiasts for enthusiasts. Friendliest meeting ever. With practice, qualifying and 4 races each day for every class X 2 days. If I'm not there this year, it probably means I'm dead.
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In the past we had the ThunderX series in Queensland, which had veteran classes they were
1. 30 to 34 and 35 to 39 run together but scored separate
2. 40 to 44 and 45 to 49 and also over 50 again run together and scored separate.
I think if it was still run there might also be 50 to 54 and 55 to 59 and then over 60.
The five year gaps is about right although the numbers might not be there for over 50 to be broken up.
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Vintage MX is not just vintage bikes, it is vintage riders also.
Yes. Maybe the Rules should be changed to list the rider as a Major Component.
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Vintage MX is not just vintage bikes, it is vintage riders also.
Yes. Maybe the Rules should be changed to list the rider as a Major Component.
Someone will just protest my titanium knees & hips ;-)
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a clear advantage over a std knee john...to the back of the pack! :D
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Vintage MX is not just vintage bikes, it is vintage riders also.
Yes. Maybe the Rules should be changed to list the rider as a Major Component.
Someone will just protest my titanium knees & hips ;-)
That would be on the cards John...... You can't modify an old bike so why can you modify your body?
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Over the last few Classic Nats the 50-59 has been the biggest age class, with 60+, and 40-49 not far behind. This year we expect 10 or more over 70 at the Classic Nationals, so there is plenty of fun for us olds. With age categories at the Post Classic Nats we hope more old hands will be encouraged to have a go.
It is a shame when fit dads stop riding and put young guns on their bikes. The best scenario is when dads and the young guys both ride together and those that do obviously get a lot of fun and satisfaction from it.
As to why NOT racing, obviously apart from age, old injury etc cost is an issue. Financial climate not great and people are feeling the pinch.
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I haven't strapped on the gear for 2 years...........! I also have not been on here for 18 months :o :o
Time- I only get every 2nd weekend off, and I work away from my Mrs. My weekends are spent wish her trying to build our life and finances.
Scheduled- The state where I am currently, has only 1 meeting yearly which meet my roster- That pissed me off!
Too much politics and not enough action in rectifying issues. You can't please everyone and you need rules, but you need to digress to increase interest.
$$$$$ I don't want to spend shit loads and wasting my holidays on attending meetings.
Bike- just not up to standard (until I employed someone to finish it) It's almost finished now.
I'd like to do a full season before kids come along, but it's not looking good.
Peace and stay upright.
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Yes the sport was it's strongest in the 70's, hence all 'those' riders are now in their 50's & 60's, so it makes sense that the race scene should be catering for for those age-groups.
I noticed a considerable drop in my riding ability once I turned 50, I think modern racing should show more respect for the grandfathers of the sport. In the Vic Offroad Champs, Over 50 are classified as 'Masters' and their riding numbers are all 3 digit starting with a 9; it takes the 'pressure' off the older guys, plus would generate respect from onlookers.
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The sport in Queensland was at it's strongest in the 90s and early 2000s. The Shell Advance/Sunshine State MX series averaged between 300 and 400 riders per round during this period.
In 1998 we started the ThunderX series and while this didn't have the entries of the SA/SSMX series it was still strong.
The key to veteran racing is not limiting it to Vintage bikes. It also helps if there is a class for the Juniors as well. When you create a family atmosphere it is better. If you cater for the Pros that is mainly what you get.
Also tracks have an effect on rider participation too. Old bodies don't like SX obstacles. The riders won't tell you they will just not enter.
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In the past we had the ThunderX series in Queensland, which had veteran classes they were
1. 30 to 34 and 35 to 39 run together but scored separate
2. 40 to 44 and 45 to 49 and also over 50 again run together and scored separate.
I think if it was still run there might also be 50 to 54 and 55 to 59 and then over 60.
The five year gaps is about right although the numbers might not be there for over 50 to be broken up.
I think one answer would be advertise (and plan) classes as suggested above, then rationalize according to the entries received. Like they did with the Sumo - not enough 45-50 entered, so it became 45+ (combined 45-50, 50+. Still a lot fairer than racing 35yo's)
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sorry KTM - are you advocating moderns as well as Vintage - don't think that is working real well here in the west where the guys just see it as another modern meet and hardly any vintage turn up? For a Classic club trying to get numbers up.
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New to the game which may not make my opinion worth much, but for what it's worth.........
I believe the V in VMX is currently about the bike, not the rider (i.e. bike age, not rider age, as evidenced by the basic classes).
MMX (M = Masters) may be a different gig that doesn't exist yet (rider age, not bike age).
Maybe there should be both?
But other sports do it both at once. How?
For example...........
Sailboats run a number of classes in the same race. Any lessons there?
Cycling run age events. Equipment age and quality is largely secondary. Are we closer to that model than the current one?
But most importantly, what is the sports primary objective?
Old blokes on old bikes, anyone on old bikes, old blokes on any bike?
Given that as we get older the rider is the limiting factor for most of us mug punters. So I think the last one has merit. That would make it MMX.
How do you get from here to there, assuming you want to?
Run a one off event purely rider age/capacity based and see how popular it is. Say 40-50 age group and over 50 age group. 125/250/250+ classes.
In terms of bike run what you brung as this new setup is primarily about riders age not bike age, but make say two model cut-offs at say 1980 and 1990 if you want.
Combine some or all of the above and award prizes to the winner in each category.
MA/local club can't cater for that? Get a bunch of mates and go to QMP and do it informally for a one off and see what happens?
Of course everything seems simple to the new guy so I'm happy to have those opinions tempered by the stuff I don't know casue I just got here :-)
Tony
Tony
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I took ktm47's comment to be about running events primarily for old(er) riders, rather than being about vintage meetings.
Personally, I'm not racing because there's nothing on!
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I was just saying what had worked in Qld previously. Unfortunately while it would be nice to recognise age of the rider in Vintage MX in some respects the numbers just don't warrant it and you will still be racing against the younger riders anyway. There isn't room for a separate classes. However QVMX may try an over 45s unlimited class according to the AGM minutes. Even this isn't that great. Most riders who raced when younger are still reasonably fast when they are in the 45 to 55 age range, its just when you get older it gets harder, especially if you aren't riding all the time.
Really I have never had a problem with the younger riders, sometimes it is the older ones that are the most dangerous (myself included).
At the height of the ThunderX series (which included a EVO and Pre 85 class) most older guys myself included rode the Vintage class and the Veterans class on the same bike. This was against modern bikes as well. It was common for the leader into the first corner of the over 40s to be a 490 Maico.
The biggest thing was the tracks. They were on what we called Natural Terrain but always Conondale type tracks.
Of course the Thumper Nats series was so popular because it catered for the Veterans and it was destroyed by letting the Pros take over.
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Personally, I'm not racing because there's nothing on! 8)
Me too , but that's about to change
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The bike age/style confusion is partly my fault (mixing VMX with Moderns and even constantly mentioning SM....)
The concept is the same: 30+ years past your fastest is a bigger deal than 20mm of extra suspension travel, or racing last years model.
I'm not a smart man, I'll line up next to 19 yo's if I have too (knowing I have no chance, knowing the 19 yo isn't thinking about his mortgage/employment/hospital costs).
The bottom line: The more opportunity to race folks CLOSER to my age (VMX, Modern, or Supermoto.), the more racing I'll do.
PS
Racing a modern bike is cheaper than VMX if you buy a bike 5 or 6 years old.
I was offered $2000 trade in on my immaculate (12 recorded oil changes. 25hrs gentle use) 2008 YZ250f with all the fruit, on a new 2014 model in 2014.
I've seen brand new 250f's for sale for $7k (with a free pit tent!)
Mtce costs are oil and filters (and tires) for a few seasons racing.
I'm looking for a YZ465H, and people are asking $6K. Plus there is a big risk something expensive will let go at some stage.... Just saying.
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If you want to race modern bikes, that's fine but I can't see how VMX bikes can mix with moderns at the same meeting. Isn't VMX about riding/racing vintage bikes?
VCM here in Victoria run a race program that caters for Pre75 all the way to Evo and it is a full day of racing. They do include mini's and pit bikes to boost the days overall numbers in an effort to manage costs and at some meetings, the pit bikes out number all classes which is what I fear would happen if moderns were allowed to be in the program. There is only 1 age group which is an over 50's class and gets reasonable numbers. VCM also trialed a Pre85 class at the last round of the series. I wasn't there so I can't comment on numbers but they may be included in the program this year.
I hope Pre85 doesn't happen as it makes riding the Pre78 and Pre75 bikes (which is what I like to ride), so much harder with the acceleration and braking bumps. This wouldn't be so bad if ALL the tracks were flowing natural terrain rather than the stop nature of jump tracks.
Just my thoughts.....If ALL vintage meetings were held on ALL natural terrain tracks, I think more people with old bikes would attend races. We don't bounce as well as we did when we were in our prime and the earlier bikes aren't conducive to negotiating double jumps and big table tops. Get the jump wrong and usually something on the bike (or body) breaks.....
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I think skypig hit a very important point: VMX is more expensive than modern MX nowdays.
Now, I know there's more appeal to VMX than the cost, but...
Owning and running a VMX bike is more difficult than a modern. Shops don't have parts in stock, there's not 20 ebay sellers having a price war on plastic kits, there's not 500 forum threads on how to get your forks working perfectly, you can buy a decent bike for $2k and go racing the next day, you hardly ever have to wait six weeks for bits to come from Japan, etc.
VMX doesn't need to exist. There's no rule that stops us racing our old bikes at modern club days.
But it does exist, because sufficient numbers of people want it to exist. The real question is WHY do we?
Everyone has their own answer, but I'm pretty sure the real answer is a lot more about PEOPLE and a lot less about bikes (compared to what everyone blurted out in the first instance).
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Nathan - how many of the guys actually buy $2K moderns and go and race them? I thought the majority were out there buying the latest bling every year at some exorbitant cost whilst I keep using my one and only trusty pre 75 bike - hence the cost of VMX is a lot less than modern? Less meetings mean less travel, club licence costs are less as it is aimed at a different market. I actually would of thought modern more expensive - plus a 4 stroke overhaul is a lot more than my old 2 stroke?
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From the other side – why I do go racing:
Love the challenge of trying to do a little bit better, started out a few years ago regularly coming in last, now about "Middle Pack".
The older bikes are really easy to ride when they are set up properly and the track is not modern, nothing beats sliding on an older MX bike (okay perhaps Speedway but I've never had the balls for that)
Enjoy the workshop time, often mucking around getting things just right.
Good crowd, competitive but friendly, wealth of knowledge and always prepared to help.
Here in Victoria enough race meetings to keep you busy, Viper, VCM and Classic Scramble Club.
Travel is good – camping out a bit – get away from the household chores – see some different places.
Now that the bikes are set up not much work just usual maintenance, 83 Husky, 77 KTM and 74 Husky
Purchased a late model MX bike – scares the shit out of me
The constant challenge of trying to keep fit, without racing coming round every winter I probably wouldn't do anything about the Christmas ballast
Can't think of anything better to do ha ha
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Ross, the O35s class has plenty of older bikes in it, every time I've raced it (and not just VMX blokes). And -despite perceptions - young blokes on 5-10 year old bikes are not that uncommon.
You're probably right to suggest that not many people buy a $2k bike to race modern MX, but there's still plenty of people out there racing on low dollar bikes.
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I'm not suggesting racing moderns with vintage.(unless the vintage rider wants some more track time..)
I'd like more opportunity to ride my VMX against VMX riders closer to my age.
I'd like more opportunity to ride my Modern against Modern riders closer to my age.
I'd like more opportunity to ride my Supermoto against Supermoto riders closer to my age.
Race bikes for "mid pack" (or worse in my case) riders have never been cheaper.
I raced (rode around?) the Sumo championships on a 12yo KTM525. 54 rear wheel hp, more fun than barrel full of monkeys, almost worthless.
Either of these would probably be more bike than most could use to the limit, and likely do a few seasons of racing with basic maintenance.
2006 250SX
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/helensvale/motorcycles/immaculate-ktm-250sx/1101092678
2006 250SXF
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/peregian-beach/motorcycles/ktm-250-sx-f-2006/1101257161
This one might cost the purchase price again before its next race meeting.
YZ465G
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/wangaratta/motorcycles/1980-yamaha-465-motorcycle/1098396537
Travel, entry, Licence costs are quite significant.
I figure the more I race, the cheaper my Licence is. Some years $300/ per race....
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More wisdom from skypig.
I would say that attitude is more important than age. I've read lots of stuff about "16 year old lunatics" on this forum, but the dumbest, shittiest and most dangerous riding I've seen has been from riders older than me...
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but the dumbest, shittiest and most dangerous riding I've seen has been from riders older than me...
Sometimes a rider Exactly the same age as me!!!
Cheers DJ